Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:27 AM

Well, Jim, you continue to ignore my post of 16 Nov 08 - 08:48 AM but while I'm waiting for you to respond to that I'll have a go at what I've got.

I have repeatedly said that this is not a discussion on the Lewes Club policy but a general discussion on what happens in folk clubs;

You also said -
If you have written into your policy that the criterion for being allowed to sing is wanting to do so - yes, you are, if not championing, then certainly promoting bad singing.

and repeated the accusation a number of times saying - "explain how you are not" so it appears we ARE discussing the Lewes Arms Folk Club policy (not Lewes Club please).

I don't doubt for a moment that there are poor singers at other clubs, some people seem to take a perverse pride in saying how many they have got, I'm just baffled as to why you seem to be using it to justify your criticism of the LAFC.

You use the term "adequate to excellent" - do you consider singers who can't sing in tune and are unable to communicate the words 'adequate'?

No, I meant people who, at the very least meet your minimum requirements but are, perhaps, a little uninspired.

But you don't have the problem of non-singers turning up - what's to work?

Have you paused to consider why we don't get non-singers turning up? Could it be BECAUSE of our policy as part of our philosophy and attitude? Could it be that our way DOES work?

is it still a case of 'if it doesn't happen at Lewes it can't exist?'

Now, now, Jim., don't put words in other peoples mouths. Not saying anything of the sort but I can't solve other clubs problems for them. All I can do is describe what we do and the results we get in the hope that others might find it useful.

Now, if you'd just like to comment on my post of 16 Nov 08 - 08:48 AM, perhaps we can make some progress.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:54 AM

If you haven't made any 'progress' after 900+ posts I think its a lost cause.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:12 AM

ah yes, which cause would that be?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:16 AM

its a 'B' cause.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:56 AM

To read, or not to read: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the club to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous memory,
Or to take arms against a sea of muffed lines,
And, using crib sheets sing them? [Umlaut]

There is a weekly folk club in deepest Sussex - not a million miles from me - where, on alternate weeks, the evening is "open stage". Roughly 99% of the audience - say around 80 people - are regulars and around 20 of them will probably do a spot (2 songs) on these nights.

The majority - not all - but around 50% of those performers bring their music, place it on the stand, and then perform. Mainly not very well. Sometimes the percentage is higher. I can actually put up with inadequate singing, poor instrumental playing, lacklustre performance, etc. But when that is coupled with having the chords/words/dots in front of you - that's when I put down me pint and say "Enough is enough". Surely to God, if you know the club, if you know the people, if you know the form and that you will get 2 songs and no more, then does it not make sense to take the trouble to learn your two songs for the night?

When I first went to this same club - around 25 years ago, there wasn't a music stand in sight. When I started performing in clubs - over 40 years ago - there was never a music stand in sight. But - 25 years later on, this club audience seem not to care. Everyone's "fantastic" - everyone's "super". Supine is the word I'd use, but there you go.

Have I ever used music? Yes - when playing for around 6 years in the late 1970s with a mainstream jazz band, where I compiled a "real book" of around 400 or so jazz standards. The band was regularly visited by players who wanted to sit in - and who would choose what they wanted to play (players like Humphrey Littleton and George Chisholm), and I just wasn't able to recall every one of those standards without a quick peek at the book.

But I have never used crib sheets in folk clubs - not ever, not never, not nohow. Not as a floor singer or as a guest. I simply believe that, if you know you've got the opportunity to sing one or two songs at the most - then learn the buggers! Have I ever forgotten words or chords? Of course - because I'm relatively human. But you learn to get round it - you can stop and make a joke about it - busk the lines and think "sod it" - and so on.

So my performance yardstick for beginner floor singers would be: Learn at least 1 song so that you can perform it on the night, to the best of your ability, from memory. Record it, if you can, and see what it sounds like played back. Perform it to a friend or friends - or to your Mum (!) - get some feedback. In short - just do some necessary and preliminary work first, which will help your performance and give more pleasure to your listeners. I can still remember my shaky guitar playing and equally shaky voice from 1965, when I performed for the first time at a student club in Leeds. I was absolutely nervous, had lost sleep the night before thinking about it - but it never occurred to me to use a crib sheet.

Just my 10 penn'orth.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:12 AM

Will, that is spot on.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:23 AM

Well, Bryan, you continue to ignore my posts of 16 Nov 08 - 02:18 PM, 16 Nov 08 - 04:11 PM, 17 Nov 08 - 09:33 AM, 17 Nov 08 - 12:34 PM and 17 Nov 08 - 07:57 PM but while I'm waiting for you to respond to that I'll have a go at what I've got. :-D

You happily accept that there is the occasional poor performer at other clubs. You, quite rightly, say you cannot solve other clubs problems. But surely that is what this is all about isn't it? Helping each other. The Lewes Arms Folk Club is obviously very well run and advice from an organiser of such an excellent establishment would be more than welcome.

So, I'll try again, Just what would you do with a poor performer who failed to improve?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:39 AM

BTW - I think bad singers or poor performers may be misleading here. I suggest we stick to 'non-improvers', 'serial song stranglers' or 'complete no-hopers'. So as to distinguish those who make the odd mistake, as we all do, from those who have no musical skills to start with and then never get better.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:51 AM

Dave, presumably the Snail has workshops at his club,to give performers the opportunity to improve.
I cant think of any other reason why someone would put workshops on,so a poor singer might have an opportunity to improve if he turned up at Snails workshops.
the problem as I perceive things here[on this thread],is that The Snail is too concerned about his abilty as a member of some imagined debating society,and scared he will lose debating points.
I know, I have in the past been pursued mercilessly by The Snail.[see Dick Miles Jazzsinger thread]on and on and on,being pursued by the snail is rather like being bombarded by a boomerang.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:56 AM

This goes round and round in circles and you are not basically disagreeing with each other but still desperately trying to. So I'll throw something new into the discussion on another post.

Bryan, I would guess, doesn't have a problem with the quality of singers and performers even though he puts up no barriers to people becoming involved and I would guess that is for a really simple reason - THE STANDARD IS GOOD.

Most people I'd argue (not all people, most people) gauge their comfort in playing somewhere by the general standard they encounter. I would guess that people either go first and listen at Bryan's club at the Lewes Arms and then decide whether they would fit in and match their own standard to the norm. Or they turn up the first time and have a go and either fit in or don't. If they don't (whether they are too good or too bad) they'd probably not feel comfortable and probably don't return. A friend of mine who I play gigs with sometimes is incredibly relaxed when he plays at most things but was still pretty nervous when he supported Frankie Gavin the other week and similarly was more nervous than usual playing guitar in front of Martin Carthy - it applies at most levels for all people.

So the standard stays roughly at a level as it broadly is self-regulating without lots of intervention. I'm guessing on this but it has tended to be my experience.

I've played in a reasonable number of sessions and singarounds in various parts of the country (and Scotland) and approach it that way - I usually go in, have a little look, work out what the level is like and whether I feel I'd fit in before joining in or asking if I can. So I've left places without playing if I feel it is in neither of our interests that I get involved. I'm guessing most people are similarly sensitive.

If I look at our local gathering (which actually ticks all but one of Pip Radish's dream folk club - and that is only on the unobtrusive songsheet question) most of the people who play or come regularly first came along and watched a few times before being involved.

I'll post my next question soon.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:58 AM

"I know, I have in the past been pursued mercilessly by The Snail.[see Dick Miles Jazzsinger thread]on and on and on,being pursued by the snail is rather like being bombarded by a boomerang."

ditto

That's why I'm staying out of this one.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:01 AM

Will makes an important point - part of learning to be a singer is learning to cope with disasters - those dreadful moments when the next verse is looming and you haven't a clue how it starts, when your fingers get tangled in the accompaniment, when you start in the wrong key...

I was once complimented that I seemed never to forget the words. I thought, "If only you knew!" I have learned how to make up convincing words as I go along, strategically mumble where necessary, to throw in an instrumental break and make it look as if it was part of the arrangement. You don't learn how to do this if you have a crib sheet.

When I started out I used to do floorspots at one of the Cap'n's clubs, and I can confirm that crib sheets were hardly ever used and were generally frowned upon. There were no rules as such, simply our own self-respect as would-be performers.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:23 AM

Dave, presumably the Snail has workshops at his club,to give performers the opportunity to improve.

I would have thought so, Dick. That is why I keep asking the question - What would be his couse of action if there was no improvement? But as I have had no response I do not know and will not make any assumptions about what action he would take.

I'm not sure about the 'scared of losing debating points bit'. Surely no-one would think that an internet discussion forum was that important would they? Particularly if their life was as full of real interest as Bryan's obviously is.

But let's not turn this into any sort of discussion on individual members and try to get it on track to be a guide as to how to get the audience, the artists and the floor singers to behave well at folk clubs:-)

Very good points, Nick. Maybe the Lewes Arms does not attract non-improvers because of the high standard. Maybe ours attracts one or two because, like you saw at the festival, we make sure they join in regardless! Maybe others attract more than their fair share because in that particular area there is more than a fair share of people who are not as sensitive to what is going on? I realy don't know but would be interested to find out. Looking forward to your next question.

Cheers

DeG

BTW - Did you ever imagine this thread would be knocking on the door of a 1000 posts!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:39 AM

Will - I can actually put up with inadequate singing, poor instrumental playing, lacklustre performance, etc. But when that is coupled with having the chords/words/dots in front of you - that's when I put down me pint and say "Enough is enough".

I do agree. I'm blessed with a retentive memory, and I can count the times I've used words to perform with on one finger (and that was a poem rather than a song - the notes seem to help things along). So I do have to remind myself to have a bit of patience with people who find it harder to learn long and fiddly songs. But when it's three chords and three verses (and one of them's a repeat), and you're taking it at a nice steady pace so that you'd have plenty of time to remember the next line if you did dry up, I really do start to wonder what that music stand is for.

People still clap though, that's the thing. I think Nick's put his finger on it - different clubs find their own level.

I agree with Howard too - drying up happens. I used to do an unaccompanied version of Nick Drake's song Which Will - nice simple tune, only two verses, and if you nail the first verse and get people's attention you can finish off by getting quieter and quieter, which is always a good effect. Anyway, one night I got a song in the second half when I wasn't expecting it, got up & launched into Which Will. It went fine until the end of the first verse, and then... nothing. All I knew was that it was Which something... When I realised it wasn't going to come, I just went and sat down again. Then I went back next week & did something else.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:50 AM

Thanks Nick. I think that says it very well. It's interesting to compare the club Will Fly describes where it has simply become the norm to use crib sheets and music stands. It is self perpetuating - "Fred does it so it's all right for me to do it". I don't know what can be done about it except leading by example which Will appears to be trying to do. (and he's bloody good.)

I think Pip had it right too when he spoke about Strong Preferences. It is the job of the residents to set the style and (to the best of their ability) set the standard.

As a committee, we do a lot of work to try and promote the music we love, some far more than me. I think I am entitled to speak up in our defence when I am told that what we are doing is "crass" and that we are "promoting crap standards".

On a broader scale, I get pissed off with people who complain about the poor public image of folk music and then proceed to rubbish it from within. If you don't believe in it yourself, how can you expect to persuade anyone else?

I've been steadfastly ignoring The Gnome for some time now but I don't seem to be able to shake him off.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 11:10 AM

And nobody has noticed you still haven't answered his valid question :0)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 12:14 PM

There were no rules as such, simply our own self-respect as would-be performers.

Nice one, Howard Jones! A key point neatly put.

What happens with people who have no self respect or no insight into their own limitations though? Like me?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 12:28 PM

I've been steadfastly ignoring The Gnome for some time now

Why is that Bryan?

but I don't seem to be able to shake him off.

We are a tenacious lot:-)

So, come on then. I am asking your advice as an organiser of a club with a very high standard of floosingers. What would you do with someone who was really quite bad and could not or would not improve? We have a couple and I really want to know what to do with them.

Thank you in anticipation

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:07 PM

People very swiftly notice whatever the underlying thing that's going on - folk clubs are no different than anything else in life.

I went to a place recently that used to have a particularly well run (and well behaved) session/singaround and it was complete and utter chaos! It was noisy and undisciplined. People played half a tune - did something else. It didn't start on time. Someone started somewhere else - three people started at the same time. Standards were way down and noone cared - and I would guess that some of the better people who used to come probably don't now and the numbers will drift down and down. I got a lot of goes and played along to the one other person who seemed interested because noone seemed to want to play or do anything. Probably won't race back.

There is another place that I occasionally go to that I don't particularly enjoy. It is one where a small group of organising folk seem to be the only people who are important in the place so it's not much fun to be at - some of the manners there by people who should know much better are poor.

But you always have a choice.

You either have someone who runs it and make things clear as to what goes on. Or you have a generally accepted 'club ethic' which is less overtly stated but abundantly clear as to what is expected by act and deed which is probably why our little gathering has kept going for quite a few years now too - especially as it manages to juggle a traditional unaccompanied group, a small session group and a more general broader group all playing reasonably happily together without one action managing to get rid of the others. Whether that is bad or good I don't know but it is an interesting tension.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:09 PM

They even put up with the jazzzzz.

Hmmmmmmmmm. Nice.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:26 PM

What happens with people who have no self respect or no insight into their own limitations though? Like me?

To my certain knowledge you're keenly, perhaps excessively, aware of your own limitations.

On another thread someone mentioned a performer who's a fixture at Chorlton FC. His singing voice is far from mellifluous, his pitching is very approximate and his repertoire numbers about a dozen songs, almost all of which he reads out of a book. Perhaps Bryan could consider what they'd do at the Lewes Arms if someone like that started turning up week after week. (What they do at Chorlton is put him on first.)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:42 PM

Blimey, 19 pages of 'manners'...and all because someone ate some crisps. ;0)

Is this why Folk Clubs in the UK aren't doing very well, I wonder?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:52 PM

Perhaps Bryan could consider what they'd do at the Lewes Arms if someone like that started turning up week after week.

I have absolutely no idea. I expect we'd find a way to cope. If it ever happens, I'll let you know.

I can't really see the point of having contingency plans for every hypothetical situation that might arise. We have more urgent worries like what to do when you've got a room full of people you'd love to give a spot to but there just isn't time. That one happens quite often but never gets easier. Or you've just about worked out that you can fit everybody in but someone really good turns up late. Do you ask someone who's been there since the start to stand down to make room for the latecomer?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 03:05 PM

Bryan,
Think I might have responded to the wrong posting:
The only thing I can see that I haven't covered from the one you mention is:
re organisers:
"They have just as much right to decide whether they are ready to perform in public as we do."
The responsibility of those running a folk club has to be to the music and to the audience - if it is the decision of a club to present bad singing, it is insulting to the people who take the trouble to turn up and pay their pennies and it is damaging to the point of destruction to the music.
This does not just apply to folk clubs, but to any group involved in the performing arts. What should an amateur dramatic society do with an aspiring actor who can't move on stage, can't project and can't remember and interpret lines - give them apart because they want to act? - now that would be stupid.
"No, I meant people who, at the very least meet your minimum requirements but are, perhaps, a little uninspired."
No problem with that - it is not these who are under discussion.
"Have you paused to consider why we don't get non-singers turning up?"
Yes I have - I was hoping you might enlighten us on this one - is it because there are no bad aspiring singers in your area? - have you been lucky in them not visiting your club and asking them to sing? - is there something about the aura of your club that puts them off? you tell us - perhaps some of the clubs that have the problem might be able to use the information.
"Dave (he who you have chosen to ignore - I wonder why?) asked the 64,000 dollar question "So, I'll try again, Just what would you do with a poor performer who failed to improve?"
I have suggested, and nobody has challenged the idea, that virtually anybody can sing - if they put in the work and conquer the basics, no problem, you have a new singer, if they refuse to do the work and the offer of help and can't sing, they haven't shown any willingness to be a singer and therefore should not be regarded as one. In the unlikely event of somebody physically being unable to sing - there are plenty of other things to be done in the music - you listed some of them Bryan.
I used occasionally to go to a club in the Midlands which was run by an extremely efficient young woman who organised the club superbly. I asked her once if she'd ever wanted to sing - she said she had, but had never managed it, despite the work done with her by club residents.
I turned up one Sunday night to find she had become one of the best storytellers I had ever heard; horses for courses (and courses for horses)!

Now, I've answered your questions to the best of my ability - how about you answering mine - should I risk holding my breath?
Jim Carroll
PS Bryan, as much as you may claim otherwise, this discussion is about standards, not the Lewes Arms Folk Club.
Sorry Vic - I keep using Lewes as a shorthand, particularly as you are not involved in this discussion - would very much be interested in your opinion should you choose to offer it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 03:38 PM

Soooo! Dave Cooper kicked Paul Simon out,, some people must have different basic standards!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 03:46 PM

Are the folk clubs in the US and Canada run along the same lines as the English Folk Club ones?

It's just that I get this feeling that probably they don't have rules and regulations, but just turn up and enjoy playing music together..

Obviously, I could be very wrong and they may well have 'hidden gibbets' on the corner of every street, as I've a feeling we do here in England, for people who are considered to be bad mannered by those who apparently know better...

And do 'English folk club manners' differ from ordinary good manners?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 03:56 PM

I think Bryan may well have answered my question, albeit phrased slightly differently. Pip said 'Perhaps Bryan could consider what they'd do at the Lewes Arms if someone like that started turning up week after week.'. 'Someone like that' being the type of person I am refering to I believe. Bryans answer, and excuse me if I am wrong was

I have absolutely no idea. I expect we'd find a way to cope. If it ever happens, I'll let you know.

and went on to say

I can't really see the point of having contingency plans for every hypothetical situation that might arise.

At least I believe that answers my question. Well done, Bryan. At least we now know what you would do. You would 'find a way to cope'. Sounds fine to me but does not really give me any new ideas. At Swinton and Chorlton we limit the exposuere given so they do not do any real damage. Jim, if he ran a club, would check them out perioicaly to see if they had improved and if not get them to practice a bit more. All admirable ways of coping I believe but if anyone else has any further suggestions I would welcome them.

Now, if you would only let us all into the little secret of how we can make you ignore our postings we can happily get on with some more sensible discussions:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 04:02 PM

No Lizzie - Folk club manners SHOULD be the same as everyday manners but while people insist on coming in and out when artists are performing, being noisy, ignoring other peoples feelings and torturing well loved songs, as well as ear drums, there will be a need for these 'rules an regulations' you are suggesting are so abhorrent. Maybe it is th decline in everyday manners that is causing people to not go in folk clubs? When people in the folk club becomes as rude and ignorant as some you see outside I, for one, will call it a day. Hope this helps.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 04:39 PM

Yes, but there's something going on here. I truly don't see the Canadian and US posters getting their knickers in a twist about it all, in the same way that the English do, and I'd love to know why, that's all.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 04:53 PM

OK, I've worked it out....I think I'm more Canadian and American, than English. The stork dropped me in the wrong country, because 19 pages, and near on 1,000 posts on 'folk club manners' has me befuddled.

The weird thing is, that in Mudcat at least, the Canadian and US posters are incredibly more polite than the English. Work that one out..

:0)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:11 PM

At Swinton and Chorlton we limit the exposuere given so they do not do any real damage.

I guess that's the idea - I'm not convinced putting the guy on first is limiting the exposure, unfortunately. Having him open the night sets the bar very low, put it that way.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gervase
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:21 PM

It's something about folk clubs, Lizzie - they seem to bring out the anal retentive in every Englishman.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:49 PM

Englishman and woman,no need for sexism.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:03 PM

Quoth Jim: -

"if they refuse to do the work and the offer of help and can't sing, they haven't shown any willingness to be a singer and therefore should not be regarded as one."

There you go again.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:25 PM

Just popped back in to see how things are progressing 100 posts after my last contribution

Come on you guys admit it - you're using cut and paste

To sum up

one faction thinks that people should be of a standard before club organisers let them have a go

the other faction thinks that everybody should be allowed to have a go and natural selection will sort it out

see if you can expand on that guys

if anyone wants to make a laughing stock of folk music you're doing a brilliant job

back to you -

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:38 PM

The weird thing is, that in Mudcat at least, the Canadian and US posters are incredibly more polite than the English. Work that one out..

Check out any thread with WalkAboutsVerse on and check some of the transatlantic vituperation. But that's an aside.

Are folk club manners different than normal ones?

I don't think so. I'll give you an example. You stand at a distance watching a group of people who you don't know thoroughly enjoy a discussion for some time. You walk up to them and say 'I'm very befuddled as to why you have had this conversation for so long' especially as those other people over the other side of the room aren't having the same conversation. And then you say 'I've got it now it's because those people over there are much nicer than you!'

I'd reckon people would probably tell you to fuck off. But that's just me I don't have manners.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:58 PM

.I think I'm more Canadian and American, than English.

With no wish to offen you, Lizzie, but if you feel that is the case then why do you not go to Canada or America? It's not difficult nowadays.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:03 PM

or even offenD. Although I am sure I would like to offen Lizzie

Hang on, Dave lad, when you are in a hole, stop digging.

Lizzie, if you are more at home in the US then go:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:05 PM

and Bryan, you are still not talking to me! Is this the end of a beautiful relationship?

;D (eG)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:44 PM

"Lizzie, if you are more at home in the US then go:-)"

Didn't say that...I meant I feel far more at home with the kinder, warmer, more laid back natures of the American and Canadian posters in here.

I've endured more unpleasantness from some within the English folk world, than I ever believed possible. Once, I loved the music, but there is a group of people within it who have managed to destroy that.   Trust me, if they can manage to turn me off English folk music, then they can turn off many more.

It's part of why your folk clubs are on their knees, because they are *your* folk clubs, not mine, because I am outside 'the magic circle', as I happen to like the wrong kind of music, apparently, and...even worse than that, I like musicians who call themselves singer songwriters....the arch enemy, so it appears, of those within, imo, the narrow minded traditional world, who only want to listen and discuss the music of 'the traditional singers' who were...er...either singer songwriters themselves, or who sang the songs of er...other singer songwriters of their time.



From Nick:

"I don't think so. I'll give you an example. You stand at a distance watching a group of people who you don't know thoroughly enjoy a discussion for some time. You walk up to them and say 'I'm very befuddled as to why you have had this conversation for so long' especially as those other people over the other side of the room aren't having the same conversation. And then you say 'I've got it now it's because those people over there are much nicer than you!'

I'd reckon people would probably tell you to fuck off. But that's just me I don't have manners."

Oh, they told me to **** off without me ever having to say one word to them, Nick. All I did was like 'the wrong kind of music' and er..that was it...So I'm very used to the expletives and er 'good manners' (??)of some of those within the English folk world.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:23 PM

fact is, its a tricky old business....

basically in the English folkscene we've all been treated like shit at one time or another.

theres a lot of intolerance around. not nearly so much as there used to be.

In the 1960's people would turn up to a folk concert and think it was all going to be simon and garfunkel and bob dylan and get fred Jordan and be pissed off.

In the 1970's people would jeer at you if you did a ramblin Jack Eliot song - I was jeered at at at preston folk club. Some bastard shouted - roll off buddy roll off!

this is all stuff I have witnessed. Its like all these people who pontificate about northern Ireland, if you haven't been there and been treated like shit - you don't understand. and that's why this thread is so many metres long.

theres so much bitterness in the English situation. So much name calling, dismissiveness of huge talents, standing on ground that isn't worth taking. and lets face it so much of our class system.

So many middle class types setting the agenda. its not a question of education. Its a question of pygmies in the wrong jobs at the BBC, the media, and on festival committees. bloody jokes - if only it were funny. An entire artform derailed by boring little assholes trying to work gigs up for themselves when they couldn't fill a bloody phonebox with people who want to see them and their dubious work.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 03:06 AM

An entire artform derailed by boring little assholes trying to work gigs up for themselves when they couldn't fill a bloody phonebox with people who want to see them and their dubious work.

You should have been at Chorlton the other night, Al. 21 acts, a packed room and hardly a traditional number in sight. (To be more precise, it was a three-way split between traditional, original and cover versions.) Whatever the folk scene in south Manchester is suffering from, purism isn't it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 04:44 AM

To imply that a fellow member of an internet forum aught to "F**ck Off" for making a general observation regarding a *publicly viewable onlist debate* such as this, is not great to see.

Even though there may only be a small handful of *primary debaters* actively engaged in the discussion, this thread isn't in any way comparable to a *private conversation*. We're all in the room together here watching and listening, and ocassionally piping up.

Unsolicited comments about the way other people choose to conduct their *genuinely private* conversations, do of course rightfully deserve a "F**ck Off, this is none of your business". But this isn't a private discussion.

This is merely a comment regarding netiquette, which another poster has also gently raised by refreshing a thread on the matter. Because onlist everyone gets to have their say, whether others would wish to hear it or not. Even nobodies and know-nothings like me...

Apologies for taking the thread off-topic, but hey, this thread is nearly at the big 1000! And every little 'heaping upon the pile' helps... ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:02 AM

I think we are in danger of becming derailed by a 'what is folk' and 'what is wrong in folk' discussion.

Al - perfect example of bad manners from the audience but, to be fair, did you do your homework at the Preston club? Don't get me wrong, no-one should be subjected to jeers but maybe you were just playing the wrong club for your music at the time. I think I said earlier that 'folk' is far to wide a definition and one man's meat etc.

Lizzie. Again - wrong place, wrong time. Maybe you are better off without the type of people that you don't get along with. But please don't tar all folk clubs with the same brush because of your bad experience. As to -

It's part of why your folk clubs are on their knees, because they are *your* folk clubs, not mine, because I am outside 'the magic circle'

Well, firstly, our folk clubs are not on their kness. You have three prime examples of ones thriving on this thread. The Lewes Arms, Swinton and Chorlton. Plus loads of others mentioned both here and elsewhere. If you are intimating that *yours* would do better then fine - Open one an run it. The more the merrier.

But don't answer here please. Different topic - different thread if you don't mind.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:36 AM

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 04:39 PM

Yes, but there's something going on here. I truly don't see the Canadian and US posters getting their knickers in a twist about it all, in the same way that the English do, and I'd love to know why, that's all.
Lizzie,have you come across Gargoyle yet?,the fact is there are rude people of every nationality.
the americans and Canadians just get worked up about diferent things,Walabouts verse,seems to get a few of them riled.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:47 AM

Perhaps it's time we said what this argument is really about.
It has nothing whatever to do with elitism or exclusion or banning or auditions – the question seems to be, to me at least, 'TO DUMB DOWN OR NOT TO DUMB DOWN'.
Far from there being a glass ceiling as has been suggested, this is about removing the tissue-thin floor that stands between folk singing being a creative activity and an uncoordinated nervous, tic. It's about what somebody suggested way up the thread ages ago:
"This is FOLK music we are talking about. FOLK sing/play folk music there are no standards, that's the fun of it".
In the light of the existing situation on the folk scene the idea that you throw the doors open to singers incapable of singing is a bloody nonsense that could easily have come from the pen of Lewis Carroll or Edward Lear.
I dropped out of the club scene when most of the ones I visited I found to be joyless, talentless, uninspiring and uninspired emporiums where what was served up on your plate bore no relation to what appeared on the menu. Anything I have witnessed or been involved in since (particularly threads like this) and information I have gleaned from friends who, in some cases, I have known and worked with for decades and whose opinions I trust, have only served to convince me that very little has changed, and that little certainly has not been for the better. Whenever somebody recommends something on Youtube I almost invariably come away thinking 'what was that all about?' or 'are they really putting up with that?' or – 'that guitar was out of tune' or 'what happened to that tune?' or, 'what happened to all the talent we used to have?' or most of all 'what's that got to do with folk music?'.
Over the last ten-fifteen years the clubs have shrunk to something like a quarter of their number and, judging by stray comments I pick up here and elsewhere and discussions with friends who are still involved, the audiences for the remaining ones have dwindled to anorexic proportions (before anybody says it – yes, it is fair to ask 'where have all the audiences and clubs gone over that period?').
And the solution being offered?
Not, 'lets get our act together and improve what we're doing', nothing so time, effort, imagination and talent consuming. Rather, the panacea being offered is, 'lets go and find some singers who can't sing and get them to practice in front of our (paying or otherwise) audiences – that should do the trick'.
I have no doubt that there are clubs who are successful and dedicated to presenting folk music at its best, but, they seem so few and far-between that, whenever I come across one my instinct is to erect a hide and observe it, because of the rare species they have become. I hesitate to mention The Lewes Arms in case Bryan mistakes this for a discussion on their policy, except to remind him that it was he who introduced his club and its committee and policy to the thread – hence, putting them in the firing line.
The irony of all this is that in these islands we have folk song traditions to be proud of, covering every aspect of human existence, emotion and experience and as relevant, moving and entertaining to day as they ever were (anybody who disagrees with this, run it up the flag and see who salutes). Rather than those traditions being cherished and respected, they are treated like shit.
Our songs range from simple ones which can be belted out in full voice by a roomful of people, to beautifully intricate compositions which lend themselves to delicate and skilful ornamentation and demand great dedication in order to be made to fully work.
The jewels in the crown of our tradition, the classic ballads, described variously as 'the high-watermark of our tradition by MacColl) and 'The Muckle Sangs' (The Great Songs) by Hamish Henderson are often treated with contempt – mention them on this forum and you are bound to get squeals of "too-long" or "boring dirges" from our resident goldfish-concentration-spans. Not so long ago on another thread somebody produced an earth-shattering solution for how to deal with long songs and ballads by suggesting that a practical maximum length for a song should be something like 3 minutes (not sure of the exact figure, but I can check) thereby, with a couple of deft taps of digit to keyboard, banishing most of the ballad repertoire from the clubs.      
For crying out loud, let's recognise what we've got and try to improve it, not dumb it down; dumbing down gives us Russell Brand and Jonathan Woss, not the singers we need to keep the songs alive, and to create new ones using the folk styles as a template.
There you go – let's see if that takes us to a thousand!
Jim Carroll

PS Richard – if sniping from the sidelines helps get the dirty water off your chest, please feel free, but, judging by the response, I'm afraid you're not making your point - keep trying though, it'll come!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:48 AM

Sleepy Rosie - I agree 100% - it's a shame we have lost all the original posters who have either been bored or intimidated out of the thread

I am also surprised to see the degree to which some posters seem (remember that word before you have a go at me as well)to be trying to lay down the law for how all folk clubs should be run

to paraphrase David - if you want one run differently to the ones that exist, start your own or indeed go to an existing one and see if it is open to your influence

the sad thing is that the Lewes Arms, Swinton Folk Club and Chorlton Folk Club have for me been tarnished by association with this thread - the detail of what people have said has been lost, I couldn't now tell you which one has which policy and I for one would steer clear of all three - far too much politics for an enjoyable night out

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 06:12 AM

I am also surprised to see the degree to which some posters seem (remember that word before you have a go at me as well)to be trying to lay down the law for how all folk clubs should be run

All I did was respond to someone who suggested we should

"wipe the slate clean, ignore what has been written to date, and each one to set down independently without reference to others what they would like to see in Folk Clubs"

Rafflesbear, I think it was.

I for one would steer clear of all three - far too much politics for an enjoyable night out

Good grief. Can I place it on record that

- I do not represent Chorlton FC in any way, shape or form
- my own STRONG PREFERENCES are just that
and
- Chorlton FC's policy, judging from my years as a regular, is to put on anyone and everyone who puts their name down

The resulting mixed bag isn't to everyone's taste, but it's certainly not characterised by an excess of politics.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 06:15 AM

Rafflesbear:
the sad thing is that the Lewes Arms, Swinton Folk Club and Chorlton Folk Club have for me been tarnished by association with this thread - the detail of what people have said has been lost, I couldn't now tell you which one has which policy and I for one would steer clear of all three - far too much politics for an enjoyable night out

Nay lad - politics is for the Mudcat; music is for the clubs. The Lewes Arms is a great club - friendly, welcoming and politics-free. And if ever I get near the Swinton and Chorlton clubs, I'd love to try them out. Let's not confuse the heated and convoluted arguments here with the real music that's made in these places. That would be a shame.

Note the use of the semi-colon above, by the way. There's class for you...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 06:29 AM

Pip - I remember now - you were the only one to do so although I believe one other poster kind of tried. To be honest you were far from my mind when I wrote the lay down the law bit

It goes to show that in 940 odd posts, most of them far longer than in other threads, you need a good memory to keep track of exactly what is what and who is who if you don't know them - I note what you say and thanks for the clarification

the one point where I disagree with Sleepy Rosie is that reaching 1000 posts in this thread will be anything other than a very sad landmark

completely irrelevent and opportunistic plug for Norcsalordie
website

all the best RB