Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:52 PM

If you are serious about encouraging new singers run a workshop.[jim carroll].
yes,and perhaps instrument workshops too.
The sign of a good club [imo]is among other things good organisation,it is perfectly possible and can be acceptable if a weak singer,is followed by a good singer or a resident,so this is the reponsibilty of the organiser or mc.
in this way singers who may or may have potential[but need help] can be encouraged,and sandwiched between good performers,making it more acceptable for the paying public.
Bad Manners,does come in all shapes and sizes,it is the responsibility of the organiser,to have a decent mc,so that everyone gets a proper introduction,and gets the guests name correct[it happens more frequently than one thinks]
some while ago,I was guesting at a folk festival.and the MC[a professional performer himself,introduced me ;now we have Dick Miles,what sort of a bloody introduction is that.
this MC was paid to be at that festival,whether he likes the performer or not,he is paid to present and introduce people properly,this involves at the very least,stating what the performer does [plays concertina sings traditional songs is over here on tour from Ireland etc etc]and convincing the audience that the person is good.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:52 PM

I totally agree with your post Jim. It be nice if an experienced singer acted as a sort of informal 'mentor' to give newbies advice in choosing songs etc.Some new singers choose such bloomin'complicated songs instead of something simple to begin with 3 -4 verses, a chorus and a strong rhythm.

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Pete the Hat
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:58 PM

Whats the problem with learners who bring there music up on stage with them and stumble through a song? with the help and encouragement from appluse they will get better and more confident. Trust me I have been there. And still there in other respects
A friendly amosphere helps. If someone sings your song so what?

There,s a diferrence between a Folk Club and The Dead Dog Saloon at the OK Carral?
Kind Regards Pete

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:02 PM

"Whats the problem with learners who bring there music up on stage with them and stumble through a song?"
If you don't know why it's unwise to encourage incompetent singing, I very much doubt if there's any point trying to explain it.
The problem is that your audience has to listen to it - but that will soon sort itself out as, if they have any sense they'll piss off and find another club where the singers can sing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:16 PM

I think its inevitible that most new singers are going to want their words with them as a 'safety net' if nothing else. There's nothing like nerves for stealing the words from your head! It doesn't meam they havent practised. However, I do think that they should be encouraged to do without asap - most people will recognise thenmselves the difference it makes to their singing.

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Maryrrf
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:28 PM

I would agree that before performing people should learn the words, but I think it's acceptable to have a 'cheat sheet' available to glance at in case of a senior moment or forgetfulness brought on by a case of the jitters. I have occasionally been surprised at people who pull out a piece of paper and haltingly stumble through a song they are 'just learning' rather than singing something they know well and saving the new piece until they've practiced.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gervase
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:40 PM

Jim has said it here - and on innumerable other threads over the past couple of years - and it's a message that needs heeding. If you still don't 'get it', then it's hardly surprising that folk aren't beating a path to your club's door.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:45 PM

Songs should be performed without any crutches.
if a performer forgets the words,they should keep cool, ad lib,and/or carry on to the next verse,that is what performing is all about,

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:54 PM

If a performance shows no merit or gives you no enjoyment, if it was in your opinion unworthy of putting before the audience, don't clap

If enough people agree with you the perpetrator will slink off to the sound of their own footsteps. It is actually true that in a folk club people WILL clap anything

As not clapping at all is in itself bad folk club manners there are a number of devices that can be used without necessarily having to go to the loo - make sure you have a drink in your hand when they finish and gently pat the table or your knee, drop something on the floor so you have to pick it up, or if you clap using the boney parts of your palms it makes precious little noise. You retain your standing with other club mambers and have made your point

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 05:13 PM

Just a thought.

I know two singers who have very good voices, more than reasonable musical skills, and lousy memories. Both sing from sheets on music stands, and both are VERY well worth listening to.

Neither would get a look in at Jim's club, and the club would be the poorer for it.

Any thoughts on how you avoid missing a worthwhile musical experience, while trying to keep standards high?

Don T.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 05:14 PM

There is a world of difference between someone who has learnt a song and has a cheat sheet as a prop and someone who has made no attempt whatsoever to learn a song and then stumbles through the words from a sheet whilst trying to remember the tune which they haven't really learnt either. And then repeats the process next week - or even the same night - with another song. And the week after ....

Oh that we all would read and digest Jim Carroll's two posts of 3.26PM and 4.02PM today.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Pete the Hat
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 05:15 PM

Please Jim Enlighten me re incompetent singing. You dont have       to write a book.

With the help and encouragement of the folk at the club I attend I have managed to ditch the lyric sheet, ditch the music sheet and both sing and play with confidence. But it was helpful having both to begin with at the start. To avoid distraction and the odd Idiot I have also learned to do both with me eyes lightly shut. Inregards to aldiences buggering off else where well it dont happen at the club I attend indeed the numbers seem to get bigger and return each week with friends in tow.

The club I attend is not situated above a Pub. The Pubs gone and we thought it would have a inpact on the members but no it did not.ok some have gone not to return but we are allowed to bring our own beer with us damn sight cheeper.
A decent club with decent commitee and reasonable subs and above help and partisipation with learners is what makes the club I attend so good . Ok its not strictly folk folk folk Trad but whats wrong with that?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Girl Friday
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 05:26 PM

John from Kemsing if you're looking for a local folk club see the Fox and Hounds Folk Club thread. I run that, and Orpington Friday Folk. A few years ago, we were recording a live c.d at Orpington, and put up a notice on the door politely asking people not to go in and out whilst the guy was singing. Not only was this ignored, but someone slammed the door causing us to lose 3 songs which tied in together. Compared to that, leafing through your song book or using a crib sheet is a minor misdemeanor!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 05:37 PM

I used to find singarounds ideal for trying out new songs/tunes and would from time to time look at the words/dots. On the other hand I wouldn't use crib sheets for floor spots/performances.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Pete the Hat
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:23 PM

I still prefere to steer clear of floor slots due to still not being that confident under lights and on mike I accasionally put me name down but if not I am aways asked if I want to. I love singarounds

Girl Friday you can put notices up and from my experience of working for 30 years with the General public people take not a blind bit of notice of them I see folk on CCTV every day ever walk past a notice. look at it directly and still proceed or rip it off the wall
completely. Notices from my experience with a small number of folk are like Red Rag to a Ball

I worked down Chislehurst caves for 20 years and 1 day we roped off and noticed a certain tunnel on the tour route and hid round the back watching people diliberately wandering off the tour route at that point of the tour so we jumped out at them and scared then shitless.
Served em right too.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tootler
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:45 PM

When people are laying down the law, saying that this or that should be the case and generally being dogmatic, they would do well to reflect on the different types of situation covered by the term "Folk Club".

If it is a singaround, then it is not about entertaining the public at large, but it is a sharing of songs and a social evening where people who share an interest can get together to enjoy that shared interest and for the most part, anyone who wants to can sing a song in their turn. It is also worth bearing in mind that not everyone who goes to singarounds regularly performs before an audience nor, in some cases, do they have ambitions to do so.

If, on the other hand, it is a concert where someone is being paid to entertain, then it is reasonable to expect a certain minimum standard and the kind of standards that Jim Carroll argues for are entirely appropriate.

Please just show a degree of tolerance and when making your statements about what should and should not be and bear in mind the, to my mind, fundamental difference between a singaround and a concert type evening.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:04 PM

Dave McC. So very, very well put.
I can say no more, except, maybeas follows:
Don't go to a folk club to do your practising. We can do without that.
Learn the bloody song by heart, at home, and then, when you are absolutely sure you are ready, do it really well in public.
That'll be great. You will have a great feeling of achievement, well-earned, too.
There is absolutely no shame in not knowing the song by heart.
The problem lies in reading the words off a crib-sheet and not knowing all the chords properly, people don't want to hear you practise on their time, they really, really don't.
I'm talking from 45 years of folk club experience.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: MoorleyMan
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:08 PM

So true, Tootler. Well expressed!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Pete theHat
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:11 PM

Tootler
I agree with you and so now with Jim.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 10:18 PM

I think te "standards" mob overdo it.

Karaoke seems in general to be more popular than folk nights - yet if you go to a karaoke night you will hear a lot of truly dreadful singing, but everyone seems to enjoy it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: fisheye
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:51 AM

We would all like to be perfectionist however surely the idea of a folk club is to entertain and encourage people to enjoy folk music. If one is buying a ticket to see an artist you should expect a level of professionalism. I believe I can handle a guitar with some degree of skill, as for remembering words 'I cannot'. Practice before performing, yes i agree, but then some of us have nerves that seem to throw all practice skills out of the window when you are on the stage. I know I have been suffering from them for over 40 years of playing music.

Fisheye

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: breezy
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:32 AM

would you pay to go to kareeokaycroakie I would not

If its a freebie folk session its free for all

if you pay then you expect something for your moneyif not you have the right to complain

so if you sing before a paying audience please be good enough and if you are amongst others as a memeber of a paying audeinece dont do anything to distract the listeners


or else

you have been warned

and if you attend one of my pub gigs , you talk at your own risk!!!

no prisoners

theres always the other bar

but if I'm engaged for 'ambience' purposes feel free to ignore me,

but

you have been warned

again

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Proogle
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:36 AM

Too much to read again...read some...making point :P

I stewarded the Ham at Sidmouth this year and there was this lady who was sooooooooooooooooo stroppy...the lights were too bright, her seat uncomfortable blah blah and then she would get pissed at the stewards and walk out in the middle of the efing concert especially when she was sat at the front in the middle of a row! argh!
I may be young but i do care about folk manners!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: breezy
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:29 AM

next time leave yer mum at the home

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Malcolm
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:32 AM

It seems to me that the idea of a folk CLUB is that you will have members at all levels. Tolerating the weak and helping them improve (where possible!) is part of being a club.

If you just want to listen to good performers (ignoring how they became good), you want a concert.

A local club has some singaround/open mic nights, some nights with a paid performer with local support, and some nights with no floor singers just paid acts. It seems to survive pretty well on this mix. (Admission price varies accordingly)

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:36 AM

So, I gather that (by some definitions) the person who gets up ands sings a song with poor phrasing, and off-key,with a badly tuned guitar, but has learnt all the words, is preferable to someone who sings beautifully but has to refer to a lyrics sheet.

Obviously I am taking this to extremes, but I think I make the point!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: OldFolkie
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:25 AM

Being somewhat one of the 'older generation', but also having been a beginner once, I do agree with a lot of the issues on this thread.

Yes, beginners need to be encouraged - otherwise the folk scene will die.

On the other hand those who are not beginners should have at least practised their songs beforehand. If nerves or forgetfulness do strike very occasionally (as they do)to those of us who are, and wish to remain, unpaid performers at singer's nights or singarounds then I believe most folk club audiences will accept very occasional failures. On the other hand, if the words or chords are forgotten every time by a so-called experienced performer, then, I for one do get fed up.

At one of the clubs that we go to, there is a guy who has been around for many years (so he tells us) comes in every time with a new song that he has written. Hasn't learned either the words or the chords; brings in a music stand and his reading glasses. Result is a song performed lifelessly, with no feeling, with little audience interest. This last time, as soon as it was his turn, there was a rushed exit to the bar by several of the people in the room. I wonder whether he'll get the message?

And there is definitley no place for mobiles being on in a folk club!

However, as others have noted, a few of the other contributions to this thread have made me think about things that I do that might others might find annoying..

Grumpy Old Folkie

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:01 AM

running workshops is good but running workshops successfully requires skill and diplomacy and tact.
firstly singers should not be told they must sing in a certain way[stylistically],
workshops should concentrate upon improving technique,suggestions can be made,directing the singer to recordings of differing singers that the person might benefit from listening to.,and then let the person chhose their own direction,suggestions can be made that a singer might be more suited to singing shanties or whatever,but that is about as far as you should go.
the singer has to make their own decisions,telling people what to/ or how to sing will often be counter productive and is bad manners.
it is also bad manners,to say to a performer while they are on stage: we dont allow political songs here,or you must only sing songs from your own culture or in your own accent[ Ibelieve this is what happened to Lisa Turner,a fine blues singer at the ballad and blues club,or was it Maccoll/Seegers singers club].
A club may have rules,but the time to sort that out is not on stage,but during the break or afterwards.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: melodeonboy
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:02 AM

Surely there needs to be give and take on both sides. It's worth looking at John Routledge's comment again:

"There is a world of difference between someone who has learnt a song and has a cheat sheet as a prop and someone who has made no attempt whatsoever to learn a song and then stumbles through the words from a sheet whilst trying to remember the tune which they haven't really learnt either. And then repeats the process next week - or even the same night - with another song. And the week after ....".

Absolutely!

I'm not particularly keen on singers reading the words while singing, for obvious reasons, and I don't do it myself. However, I know performers who do bother to learn songs and perform them well, but through poor memory, nervousness or other reasons, feel more comfortable when they have the words with them. I don't find that particularly offensive.

What I do find irritating is the kind of experience that I had about a year ago when visiting another folk club (which will remain nameless!) for the first time. This bloke got up behind the mike with his guitar and words and started to sing a song which I knew. He seemed to find it difficult to read while he was singing and misread words on a number of occasions, rendering the song, for the most part, meaningless. He seemed to be unaware that he'd been singing wrong words because he hadn't put any effort into learning them in the first place!

As I said, it's a matter of give and take. In the first example I gave, the singer's doing his best to give something to the audience, and he may need a bit of help to do it. In the second example the singer's not really bothered about the audience (or even the song):he just wants his five minutes of fame.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:00 AM

The trend for people to bring looseleaf binders with a hundred or more songs that they can't sing seems to be growing. If a song is worth singing, its worth learning, in my opinion. However, we do have a chap who is a very accomplished singer, one of the best we have actually. He cannot perform without his songbook in front of him - its a battered old A4 hardback with songs he has collected over the past 30 odd years in it. He never reads from it, or uses it for much more than deciding which song he is going to treat us to, but without it he would be lost.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: breezy
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:18 AM

All choral works are usually sung from the score

what the heck anyway its only an English thing !!!

us celts learn to perform before we walk

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:27 AM

A few years ago, there was a performer who came to a club we went to who was really excellent at delivering comic poetry, timing , everything spot on!

He decided to become a singer, and went out and bought himself a top of the range Martin before he'd even learned a chord.

He got up to perform and announced that he was going to do the Mick Ryan song "The Man that I did Kill". Those of you who know the song will realise that it is quite long, but such a good song that you don't notice the length when done by a reasonable performer.

He accompanied himself with one chord per syllable, completely ignoring any time signature, having switched on his video camera to record himself performing.

About three quarters way through the song, he forgot the words and siad:-

"Oh, I'll have to start again!" He did this and began all over again.

At least it makes a good story to tell.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:36 AM

Acorn4.
       I am just reading your thread and it conjures up such a hilarious picture that I burst out laughing. Please tell us more tales from your club to brighten this dreary day.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:51 AM

I totally agree with your post Melodeonboy. There is a very big difference between someone who has not even attempted to learn the words and a new singer who wants a cheat sheet, 'just in case'. Dick, I don't think you can expect a newbie to easily be able to ad-lib or just carry on, when they are half paralysed with fright anyway, but ready to have ago. Have you never had the experience of singing a song perfectly a dozen times in your own home but messing it up when you are standing at the front? Also, some people may be very good singers, but find it very difficult indeed to learn songs by heart. It seems a shame to discourage new singers from performing by sending out negative vibes.

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:13 AM

,when I started as a floor singer 1971,the competition was tough,nobody ever sang songs with words in front of them.
I can remember going out to the toilet to run through words ,to make sure I had it right,if you werent any good you didnt get a chance to sing the next week,if a performer forgot a word they carried on,we had to learn how to perform,as we were doing it,and that[ imo] is the only way.
I experienced all those things as a newbie performer,but I got up and did it,I practised a lot before I went on,if i played a wrong chord aor sang a wrong word [I let it go ,and made sure I got the next verse right].
making a mistake can happen to anyone,the most important thing is to learn to feel at ease,whilst performing,[this is what the alexander technique is about],throw away your word sheets,if you make a mistake,make it up or make a joke.,carry on,nerves have to be conquered.
on the other hand Iwould never criticise anyone in a club if they were singing with words [if I was guesting,or whatever],Iam not that bad mannered,I am just stating my opinion.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:52 AM

Your experience, Cap'n B, sounds like mine - except it was 1965 when I started. I can't remember anyone ever bringing along music to a club on those days. We simply practised and practised until we got it as right as we could. (Monty Python:" If you told the young people of today, they wouldn't believe you...").

At a club I used to go down here in Sussex - until recently - almost every single performer plonked their music down on a music stand. Now, I don't mind a bit of that, and I do appreciate that people have to learn - and I also occasionally stumble over a word here and there - but it's as far removed from the folk clubs I remember as it's possible to be. I got so fed up with it, I just stopped going there. The whole evening just seemed so lifeless, only generating any interest when someone got up and performed from their heart.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: breezy
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:52 AM

Heres an idea

listen to the source over a period of weeks, nay months if needs be until you find yersel humming the odd phrase, then add on bit by bit, to see if you can sing one verse , hurry not the learning unless you are gifted with total recall and of supreme intelligence, but imerse yersel totally in the piece

then when still alone

ditch the words and try
one verse at a time maybe in front of the mirror



Know your stuff thoroughly before attemping to perform it please   

respect the song and its author

I wanted to perform particular song before an audiencea few years back but luckily, I couldnt even start it, its taken me 3 years and I performed it perfectly last week.

Even the source artiste refuses to perform it, and he is a very famous folker indeed,

So the answer is 'practice' a discipline learned from 8 years of purgatory on the piano when very young

Good luck to one and all

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: henryclem
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 12:24 PM

There seems to be such a variety of formats - clubs, sessions, singarounds, concerts; every time a thread of this nature crops up it seems as if there is a collision of worlds!

I go to a few weekly clubs (and they are clubs) where they have a "name" guest maybe once a month, with singers nights otherwise. In my experience there is never a question of the regulars getting preference, whether it's a guest or singers' night - the format (except for spotlight nights) is one song each, and new visitors always get a turn, or two, even if we don't get round the room once/twice in the course of the evening. Basic courtesy towards visitors, I'd say. And everyone pays on the door, every week, whether or not they perform.

We have had people come in for the first time and do their song/tune
then pack up as soon as the next person starts, leaving while that person is actually performing. They are in the room long enough to observe the general proprieties practised by the gathering, but choose to ignore them.

Too much is made of the occasional lack of expertise. I regularly make a 70 mile round trip to Swindon Folksingers Club (which will celebrate 50 years in January 2010) because I think it is a great club for the very reason that it has a community of members of all ages, experience, ability, levels of self-confidence etc. Above all it's a happy and welcoming club (as I'm sure you'll agree, Dick). I've never had a bad night there, and I don't see that my paying at the door gives me the right to be intolerant of anyone who chooses to perform.

Henry

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,keith ferret
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 12:43 PM

If you don't know the words to the song then how can you give it any feeling and interpretation. It's a disrespect to both the audience and the composer......all songs were written at some point... not to know, and be comfortable with the words and the tune is inexcusable. Because the folk tradition is oral....and possibly aural too...then it's ok if you don't sing the words exactly as written or heard.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 01:01 PM

There seems to be some elitism being suggested which occurs on a higher level with some rather than others. I have seen the same thing expressed over people who do not use a capo over others who do. If you cannot play a chord in a key then you are less than useless...

Surely Folk is about folk, of all levels of experience and expertise, and that is what makes it so diverse. Some Folk clubs allow Country songs others not. It is all singing.

I had encepahlitis many years ago which left me with a short term memory deficit. I never realised how bad it was until I picked up my guitar again in May after a 13 year break. New songs just do not go in like they used to and I remember songs from 2 decades ago easier. So it is I use cheat sheets all the time. I really find it hard to remember all the words to new songs and the more I find the harder it is.

This does not stop me from being able to pass across some of the emotion in a song. I have been know to make people cry and not just because I have a terrible voice! ;-) Many comment about the emotionality in my singing... sometimes. Other times I am useless and a song I sang 10 times in the afternoon perfectly falls apart in the evening at a club. The cheat sheet is a great help.

But what helps me most is the attitude of those around me at the clubs I attend. These are warm, caring people, who do not judge me. They give me my turn and allow me my expression. They encourage me and share their knowledge and songs, thier emotions and compassion. My life is richer for it. THAT is what folk is about surely?

Would I charge people to hear me? Certainly not. I am not, nor never will be, good enough. I can only aspire to try and sing well and play correctly. I often fail but am also forgiven. I confess at being almost alarmed at some of the comments I have read. We all started somewhere and we all make mistakes. Some, like me, more than most.

You have given me great food for thought and I will certainly try to 'clean up my act' but try not to condemn those who try their best and make mistakes. Because of them it makes the perfect ones look even better and more polished! ;-)

Sing and let sing... that's folk for you :-)

mp

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 01:05 PM

Mauvepink: try not to condemn those who try their best and make mistakes

Ah - well that's the point. You obviously do try your best - and good on ya - however, many don't try their hardest and it's those wot gets up me nose sometimes.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 01:28 PM

From: mauvepink - PM
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 01:01 PM

"There seems to be some elitism being suggested which occurs on a higher level with some rather than others. I have seen the same thing expressed over people who do not use a capo over others who do. If you cannot play a chord in a key then you are less than useless..."

A capo is a very useful device. I don't use mine that often, but it's great for playing in the "flat" keys. A great deal of guitar music is in the sharp keys G, D, A, or E and it's quite nice to have some variety. I also sometimes have pain in my hands, and when it's bad, a capo can make things easier. The main disadvantage is the loss of some notes and/or possible fingerings, but that's not something that should concern the audience.

There are good reasons for wanting to play something using voicings with open strings. If I wanted that sound in, say F or Bb, I'd use a capo. One could use a different tuning, but I don't see any moral superiority in doing that. Who cares? What counts is the sound that comes out.

Not everybody wants to or can be a virtuoso on the guitar. Sneering at someone for using a capo is just silly, in my opinion, even if it really was just a crutch (which it isn't).

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 01:56 PM

Well said Mauvepink and Piers Plowman. Exactly. Most of us do the best we can but are not, and never will be, virtuosos. Also,many of us work full time and with the best will in the world get a limited amount of time to practice. We do have other lives. I go to two folk clubs a week and both of them are warm friendly places where people are encouraged to do their best but mistakes are forgiven. It is quite different when we have a paid guest. Of course we expect a certain standard then.


Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 01:57 PM

I was not disparaging capo use. I used that as another example of elitism that sometimes comes out. People who never need a capo looking down on those who do. (I always use a capo myself)

Sorry. I should have been clearer. My intention was to show attitudes often expressed with those of lesser skill though, as you point out, many with great skill use capo too.

Hope that clear up any misunderstanding

mp

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 02:05 PM

Sorry, mauvepink, I understood what you meant. I didn't think you were disparaging the use of the capo. I was just adding my two cents.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 02:13 PM

... and me my two penneth

We cannot even agree on monetary units! ;-)   Where will it all end?

hehe

I am glad I I did not offend

I will be out soon to one of my Clubs of choice and just always know it will be a relaxed, cordial affair with good songs and like minded folks

Have a great day/evening/night everyone

mp

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 02:16 PM

John from Kensing.

Glad you found the little tale amusing - I'm not sure i know of any others relevant to this thread, but if I think of them I'll post them.

I do recall a story told by Jez Lowe at a songwriting workshop he ran.

He turned up to do a gig one night and was greeted by one of the organisers, who told him that he could do any of his songs except this one, that one, etc because the residents did those.

Fortunately Jez always sees the funny side of things.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 02:30 PM

After singing his famous song 'The First of May' Dave Webber was, ever so gently, once reprimanded by an old lady at a concert in Cornwall, 'My dear, leave Cornish songs for the Cornish!'

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM

After you I insist - have the 100th post

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 02:52 PM

"Please Jim Enlighten me re incompetent singing.
You might start with being able to hold a tune and remember the words - not enough, but I'd happily settle for it for a start. When you've got that mastered, then perhaps you might go on to understanding and liking the song you are singing. I'm not asking for virtuoso performances; they will come later.
Speaking personally, I got very tired of feeling embarrass on behalf of would-be singers who made idiots of themselves in front of audiences; patronising a poor singer is doing nobody any favours - help them to be good ones and then give them an audience.
If you are serious about attracting new blood you owe it to the music to present singing at a reasonable standard. A new punter who walks in from the street and hears naff singing takes that impression away with them - that for them is folk music - are you happy with that image?
I totally agree with whoever said that you can't have interpretation from crib-sheets.
Cap'n' suggestion of running through your text in the jacks is an excellent one - and you make some wonderful friends in there.....! but not on stage - please.
If you are going to turn your club into a Freemasons lodge and only give access to the initiated - fine; you are entitled to perform your songs naked while standing in a bowl of custard; if you are a public club - you owe it to the music to set a standard - and to yourself. Nobody but a sado-masochist likes bad singing, from themselves or their fellow performers.
Singing can be fun - even if it's belting out Yellow Submarine five minutes before closing time - but for lasting pleasure and satsfaction you can't beat making a song work, knowing you've made a song work, and knowing that your audience knows you've made a song work.
Not unlike The Virgin Queen who said she had Calais carved on her heart; I have something MacColl once said in an interview back in 1980.

"Now you might say that working and training to develop your voice to sing Nine Maidens A-milking Did Go or Lord Randall is calculated to destroy your original joy in singing, at least that's the argument that's put to me from time to time, or has been put to me from time to time by singers who should know better.
The better you can do a thing the more you enjoy it. Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it's working, when all the things you want to happen are happening. And that can happen without training, sure it can, but it's hit or miss. If you're training it can happen more, that's the difference. It can't happen every time, not with anybody, although your training can stand you in good stead, it's something to fall back on, a technique, you know. It's something that will at least make sure that you're not absolutely diabolical
The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song".
Jim Carroll