What Makes a Folk Voice?

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 07:02 AM

THE LAST CASTRATO, ALLESSANDRO MORESCHI, DIED IN IN 1922

There are thousands of castrati alive and singing right now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 07:28 AM

THE LAST CASTRATO, ALLESSANDRO MORESCHI, DIED IN IN 1922, quote jim carroll.
Jim,it would help,if you got facts right

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 09:01 AM

I ws referring to Western Castrati Dick and you know it
Stop trying to score points
The link I gave clearly states that
"What is worse is the folk snob dictating how a folky voice should sound!!!!!!"
Thanks for your support Bozo
Exactly what I said - there is no such thing as one folk voice
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 09:12 AM

I've no idea why Jim mentioned castrati at all, and if there was any reason why Western-trained ones should be more relevant it was lost in that mass of unreadably formatted verbiage.

The point about the hijras is that they're around now, easy to locate, and sing in a wide range of styles with varying levels and types of training. If you want to find out what the capabilities of the castrato voice are, they're a far more informative resource than Moreschi's 78s.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 09:41 AM

I mentioned them in connection with men's unnatural falsetto and how it was achieved
It was a passing comment
Jim

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 11:14 AM

a pssing comment and an incorrect one

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 07:09 PM

What you actually said, Jim was:

I do know that falsetto is not natural to men and in order to produce it in young boys to make them choristers (or to train them for opera) it was once practice to castrate them

And that's not entirely true. It's perfectly possible for most, if not all men to produce a falsetto voice. Some high tenors cultivate it as their regular singing voices as it enables them to sing in the female alto range. Yodelling involves alternating between falstto and regular voice. I can produce a falsetto without straining my voice but it only has a range of a major third. It's still occasionally useful to make singing at the top of my range easier in certain circumstances.

Of course it's often used for comic effect.

In the past castration was used to preserve the voices of boy trebles with particularly fine voices at a time when women didn't sing professionally. Given the risk of infection at the time it was very risky and only a minority actually then had a succesful singing career.

They wanted to castrate Haydn but his parents refused. It's as well they did refuse.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: GUEST,Tootler
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 07:12 PM

That Guest was me. I put my name in the box but it must have gone when I previewed the post.

I was going to add that most of that previous post has very little to do with folk song as I've rarely heard falsetto used except for occasional comic effect.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 07:29 PM

I stand corrected Tootler, though I do believe that in most men, falsetto is unnatural and has to be achieved artificially
It is actually used in some traditions - tralalere singers in Genoa docker singer entitled 'La Dama' - as a vocal feature to their polyphonic singing rather than for comic effect
I remember hearing a Spanish 'Canto Hondo' singer and believing I was listening to a woman when it was, in fact, a man
I can't think of any English language traditional singing which uses the technique
You are right of course that thi has been a thread drift - it was my old friend, Jack Warshaw, who brought it up - I thought it worthwhile to use it as an excuse to emphasise the tendency of the older generation of singers to use their natural voice.
Considering the somewhat unfriendly reception from some fanzines, I hesitate to bring up the dreaded 'little-girl head voice favoured by many women singers again and all the problems that particular idiosyncrasy that causes
Jim

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 07:55 PM

Sould read Genoa dockers featured a singer entitled 'La Dama'
Jim

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 10:37 PM

I suppose people choose to sing folk songs in all sorts of different ways. There used to be a bloke called Owen Brannigan who went around singing The Blaydon Races in a very fruity voice. Came to our teacher training college once.

Then theres all those Irish tenors, my Dad was so fond of.

Its all folk music, innit? At least, they were singing folksongs. I'm sure they gave a lot of pleasure to a lot of people.

Folk music isn't just source singers - otherwise we none source singers wouldn't have a role.

Its a bit like the old parable of the man juggling before the altar - because it made him feel God's pleasure in his work. We all bring different stuff to the party,

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 03:10 AM

I was going to add that most of that previous post has very little to do with folk song as I've rarely heard falsetto used except for occasional comic effect. .'
American singer Jimmy Rodgers used it all the time so did the texas drifter gobell reeves Jimmie Rodgers, was an American country, blues and folk ... Rodgers was also known as "The Singing Brakeman".
Yodelling has a lot to do with Swiss folk song

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 04:00 AM

The original poster asked 'What makes a good folk voice' - she didn't specify what folk voice so naturally we all assumed she meant 'our' folk voice - the voice we use to present 'our' folk songs - English language songs in the main.
It's an interesting and important question which, if you wish, can cover the whole International spread of Traditional singing
Some people, including me, are interested in all traditional singing - we get a gret deal of enjoyment from listening to the sound of it, even when we don't understand the words - though knowing what is happening is always a bonus

Apart from that, as singers, it's a useful exercise in discovering how the voice can be produced if you put your mind to it - listening to a wide range of styles and techniques can be an aid to developing your own abilities (and a guide to what to avoid, of course).
For instance, if you understand how vibrato is produced you can learn how to avoid it or get rid of it, assuming you want to.
The voice is a musical instrument for (in our case) passing on ideas, emotions and events - our song traditions are largely narrative or 'word-based)

I believe Bert Lloyd, above all people, made the greatest contribution to making a wide variety of styles and techniques available to us folkies
His programmes, 'Voice of the Gods', 'The Lament', the magnificent 13 part series (for schools), 'The Songs of the People' and, in my opinion, best of all, 'Folk Song Virtuoso', covered a vast range of traditions, styles and techniques in World Music - a wonderful journey through the possibilities of the human voice - both the technique and the uses it was put to.
If you haven't heard them, you should try to - if you have, they're always worth a re-visit.

I have a long standing mate who is, in my opinion, one of the most skilful singers of folk songs not (any longer) on the folk song scene - an irritating shrinking violet of a singer.
It frustrated him no end when he failed to manage the art of the Mongolian 'Throat Singer'
Perhaps he should have bought himself a horse !!
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 06:46 AM

but Jim, you and I like tradtional singers but we do not know if the OP was interested in more commercial aspects of the folk voice she mght be after JOAN BAEZ sound

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 07:03 AM

When someone open a thread you can't assume what they want so you put your own point of view - nobody has to respond to it if it doesn't interest them - including youI if it were notthat simple, nobody would as anything
That's the beauty of these discussions - they constantly expand our interests and knowledge
The problem is, if you're not careful you might relax your guard and actually learn something !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 10:03 AM

Thread drift

Jim, you're my sort of age - do you remember the Wilfred Pickles radio show, Have a Go!

Every couple of weeks - wherever they were some old boy would step and sing a song called Hey Ho! Come to the Fair!

Was that a folk song?

Predictable as the clog dancer and the pre pubertal boy sing If I Were a Blackbird, I'd Whistle and Sing, along with the Percy Edwards type bird whistle impressions. Oh the fun we had!

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 10:31 AM

"Jim, you're my sort of age - do you remember the Wilfred Pickles radio show, Have a Go!"
Don't I just - that foxy Violet Carson woman ruined my adolescence
She went on to play Ena Sharples in the early days of 'Corrie'
I remember the song (I think that was Owen Brannigan)
It was written by a Helen Taylor in 1917 and was issued on sheet music - I think it was sung then by her husband
Not a folk song
Jim