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BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)

katlaughing 25 Nov 08 - 03:21 PM
maeve 25 Nov 08 - 03:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Nov 08 - 04:32 PM
Amos 25 Nov 08 - 04:36 PM
PoppaGator 25 Nov 08 - 04:43 PM
Becca72 25 Nov 08 - 04:48 PM
Bill D 25 Nov 08 - 05:04 PM
PoppaGator 25 Nov 08 - 05:11 PM
RangerSteve 25 Nov 08 - 05:13 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Nov 08 - 06:26 PM
Barry Finn 25 Nov 08 - 08:12 PM
gnu 25 Nov 08 - 08:23 PM
Barry Finn 25 Nov 08 - 08:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Nov 08 - 08:49 PM
Paul Burke 26 Nov 08 - 03:27 AM
Bat Goddess 26 Nov 08 - 08:35 AM
Nancy King 26 Nov 08 - 10:29 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 26 Nov 08 - 02:49 PM
kendall 27 Nov 08 - 08:00 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Nov 08 - 10:07 AM
pdq 27 Nov 08 - 10:54 AM
Uncle_DaveO 27 Nov 08 - 11:16 AM
Uncle_DaveO 27 Nov 08 - 11:17 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Nov 08 - 11:29 AM
Amos 27 Nov 08 - 11:31 AM
kendall 27 Nov 08 - 01:30 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Nov 08 - 02:57 PM
Bobert 27 Nov 08 - 02:59 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Nov 08 - 03:13 PM
gnu 27 Nov 08 - 04:03 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Nov 08 - 04:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Nov 08 - 08:07 PM
Barry Finn 27 Nov 08 - 11:56 PM
Paul Burke 28 Nov 08 - 04:20 AM
Bobert 28 Nov 08 - 07:46 AM
kendall 28 Nov 08 - 09:20 AM
Ron Davies 30 Nov 08 - 08:54 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 28 Oct 10 - 12:49 PM
open mike 28 Oct 10 - 01:42 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 03 Nov 10 - 10:09 PM
michaelr 04 Nov 10 - 12:48 AM
gnu 04 Nov 10 - 02:43 PM
Lonesome EJ 04 Nov 10 - 03:04 PM
gnu 04 Nov 10 - 03:56 PM
ChanteyLass 05 Nov 10 - 12:21 AM
InOBU 05 Nov 10 - 04:56 AM
Desert Dancer 05 Nov 10 - 12:15 PM
JohnInKansas 05 Nov 10 - 08:31 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Nov 10 - 09:44 PM
JohnInKansas 05 Nov 10 - 11:50 PM
maeve 06 Nov 10 - 12:05 AM
gnu 06 Nov 10 - 06:37 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Nov 10 - 01:00 PM
katlaughing 20 Nov 10 - 01:36 PM
Desert Dancer 21 Nov 10 - 12:49 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Nov 10 - 02:08 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 21 Nov 10 - 05:09 PM
dick greenhaus 21 Nov 10 - 05:27 PM
gnu 21 Nov 10 - 05:40 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Nov 10 - 06:06 PM
katlaughing 21 Nov 10 - 06:15 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Nov 10 - 08:10 PM
Lonesome EJ 22 Nov 10 - 11:36 AM
frogprince 22 Nov 10 - 11:56 AM
Lonesome EJ 22 Nov 10 - 12:18 PM
SINSULL 22 Nov 10 - 12:46 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Nov 10 - 02:52 PM
Lonesome EJ 22 Nov 10 - 03:31 PM
gnu 22 Nov 10 - 03:41 PM
Jeri 22 Nov 10 - 03:41 PM
SINSULL 22 Nov 10 - 08:06 PM
maeve 22 Nov 10 - 08:16 PM
Lonesome EJ 22 Nov 10 - 08:23 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Nov 10 - 05:44 PM
Donuel 23 Nov 10 - 09:32 PM
Lonesome EJ 24 Nov 10 - 04:20 PM
LadyJean 25 Nov 10 - 03:00 PM

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Subject: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 03:21 PM

I received the following from Kovells' the antique guidebook writers/collectors/experts/etc.:

HOW MUCH DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THANKSGIVING?

Has the celebration of Thanksgiving always been on the fourth Thursday in November? The answer is No. The date was changed to make a longer shopping period between Thanksgiving and Christmas. In 1863 President Lincoln set the date as the last Thursday in November. In 1939 it was moved to the second-to-last Thursday. Then in 1941 it was moved to the fourth Thursday.

There are many myths and historical oddities connected with Thanksgiving. Did you know the Mayflower was headed for Virginia but, oops, it ended up in Massachusetts?

And Indians were not invited to the celebration. A large group of men just showed up--the 17th-century version of party crashers. There were probably twice as many Indians as Pilgrims, so it seems unlikely the Pilgrims would have asked them to leave. Unfortunately, no one is sure why they came. Perhaps they heard the musket shots and were curious. But they did bring deer to eat. No popcorn, though. It wasn't even grown in New England then. But Indian corn was, and it was probably dried, pounded and cooked into a porridge. They probably ate waterfowl and turkeys, too, all living in the wild. Also available were fish, squash, cabbage, carrots, turnips, spinach and onions. No potatoes--they were still grown only in South America. Although cranberries were growing nearby, no records show they were cooked and eaten until the 1670s.

Forget the black clothes, too. Pilgrim women wore green, blue and purple. Men liked red linings in their cloaks. And they didn't have buckles on their shoes and hats. Buckles were not in style till years later. Next time you see a painting of the first Thanksgiving, look carefully. An iron cooking pot was really used; it may even be the one that survives in a museum. But there were no log cabins. They were built by Swedes who came 18 years later.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: maeve
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 03:56 PM

A good many of the amendments above are reasonably accurate kat. I would mention that ordinary Indian corn (maize) varieties were popped on the cob long before anyone else tried it, and cranberries have been part of Eastern Woodland cookery for generations uncounted.

Giving thanks to a Creator is also not new. That doesn't lessen the value of the early colonists' gratitude to God and to the First Nations.

I am thankful for this community.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:32 PM

But the gratitude to the First Nations rather fell by the wayside, didn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Amos
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:36 PM

Are you kidding? We remember them every day for the huge gift they gave us--a whole Continent!! An excellent one, at that. Doesn't happen every day you know, people giving away a continent. My goodness, no.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: PoppaGator
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:43 PM

This morning, tuning into NPR on the car radio in the middle of the story, I learned that someone in Maine is promoting the idea that lobster should be recognized as the truly authentic Thanksgiving entree.

The guy was arguing that most of the dishes that have come to be considered "traditional" fare for this holiday had no place at the first Thanksgiving. No cranberries, he says, no sweet potatoes. (If he contended that there was no turkey either, I missed it ~ as I said, I turned on the radio in the middle of the story.) But lobster ~ yes, those New England Indian tribes definitely ate all the lobsters they could catch.

I wonder whether those Pilgrims and Indians had any green bean casserole with the canned fried-onion-ring topping? Hmmmm....


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Becca72
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:48 PM

"I wonder whether those Pilgrims and Indians had any green bean casserole with the canned fried-onion-ring topping? Hmmmm...."


Don't forget the Jell-O mold with mixed fruit and mini marshmellows suspended inside...I'm sure the 1st Thanksgiving included that.




(Bleck!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:04 PM

Green bean casserole? No, that was invented later...for the "Hopelessly Mid-Western"

I had it a lot when I was young.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: PoppaGator
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:11 PM

Bill:

Are you so midwestern that you avoid the term "casserole" in favor of "hotdish"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: RangerSteve
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:13 PM

No one mentioned the canned cream of mushroom soup in the green bean casserole. You do use canned mushroom soup, don't you? I can't imagine it any other way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 06:26 PM

St. Augustine was founded in 1565 on the feast day of St. Augustine of Hippo. Don't know what they ate, but it wasn't hippo. The first foreign 'thanksgiving' there.

Santa Fe was well established, and became the capital city of the province in 1610; the Palace of the Governors built in 1612. Thanksgiving dinners were game, squash, beans, piñon nuts. Probably no chili, although the chili pepper is American.

The pilgrim foreigners came in 1620.

The pueblo Indians and other Indian groups practicing agriculture celebrated and feasted at harvest, with game and their crops.
The first thanksgivings in North America were theirs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 08:12 PM

We're pushing lobster this year cause the world economy is in the toilet. The overseas market for lobster is shrinking & New England's in the middle of a lobster glut (yippee). I've been thankful, it's cheaper than steak, can't afford steak at the moment, a good piece of meat is $10 a pound & that's just a good piece. Lobster's at 3.99 a pound, I was gonna bring a few with me to the in-laws but they want cranberry sauce & a turkey (if Ben Franklin had, had his way the Turkey would've been the national bird & we'd be eating eagle today & at what prices?) they say that the green tomali just isn't in holiday spiritual color. They want me to wait till Christmas when Red & Green are all the rage. Dam lobsters will be black by then unless I freeze them, ever eaten frozen lobster, I still have some in the freezer from 2 yrs ago, gonna throw them out make room for frozen tomali.
Anyway, lobster was a very popular food way back when, slaves even revolted against getting fed on them to much.
So for thanksgiving support your local Nerw England fisher people, eat lobster this year & go back to Turkey next year, it'll still be cheaper by the pound but lobster won't.
I'm thankful to all the first nations but they would've been better off if they had brought rat poison to the party instead.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: gnu
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 08:23 PM

Lobster? Before about 50 or 60 years ago, here in New Brunswick, Canada, lobster was "shore dragged" in nets along with other shell and fish stocks and seaweeds to fertlize fields near the shore. Only the poor who had nowt else to eat would injest such bottom feeding scum.

But, they are C$10 a pound here today. And still ugly. Tastey tho... even if it's an aquired taste for some.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 08:30 PM

Gnu, you're not buying them from US are you? $10 a lb, somethin's fishy. Thanks for your support. How come you don't eat Canadian lobster anyway?
Sorry for going off topic

Happy Unthankstaken
Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 08:49 PM

A taste I hope never to acquire... My rule is never eat anything with more than four legs or less than two. I make an exception for cod and kippers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 03:27 AM

never eat anything with more than four legs or less than two

Anthropophagist!


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 08:35 AM

Nope, couldn't have had the Classic Green Bean Casserole with crushed fried onion rings on top -- Campbell's Cream of Mushroom Soup (condensed, of course) wasn't invented until just before the French and Indian War by a Scots piper looking for ballast for his pipes.

BTW, John Emery's mother always said, "Never pay more than 50¢ a pound for lobster."

Linn


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Nancy King
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 10:29 AM

As for the history of Thanksgiving, I've always liked the late Art Buchwald's version, which he originally wrote in 1953, while living in Paris, to explain the American holiday to the French.

Nancy


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 02:49 PM

I for one am offended by the thought of lobster as the official Thanksgiving food. For one thing it's not kosher. More importantly, I'm allergic to lobster, crab and other crustaceans; if I can't eat it, nobody should. There, my first official rant as a born again Liberal!

But seriously guys/girls, I wish each of you (at least where it is a holiday) a happy Thanksgiving Day. Don't eat too much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: kendall
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 08:00 AM

I hate to be pedantic,(:-)) but the Pilgrims were not headed for Virginia as such. They were headed for the mouth of the the Hudson river which is the northernmost point of the Virginia charter. They wanted to be part of the Virginia colony, but not close to the seat of power and regulations.

Potatoes. Who says there were no potatoes? Were they not discovered and taken to England 100 years earlier?

I expect Lobsters are not Kosher simply because whoever wrote Leviticus never heard of Lobsters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 10:07 AM

Happy Thanksgiving, Kendall. The Levitican may never have heard of a lobster 'per se', but what animals are or are not kosher are not actually named. Rather they are described, by type of animal and/or (digestive) behavior.

So as to meat, only those animals with split hooves which chew their cud are kosher, leaving out pigs, horses, dogs and cats, etc. Also only certain parts of the animal are considered kosher, as well as how they are killed and prepared. As to marine life, only those creatures that have scales and are not bottom feeders are kosher. While there were perhaps no lobsters, I'm certain that there were and are various other forms of crustaceans in the area.

Leviticus thus allows for determining the kosherness of new species that truly were not known then. I'm going to chk with the Rabbi to see if cloned animals are or will be considered kosher.

BTW, "Kosher" translates as 'ritually fitting or proper', and can apply to things other than foods. Also, there are varying levels of kosher, depending on one's level of observance; I call it being 'more kosher than thou.'

JotSC


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: pdq
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 10:54 AM

...according to one history site:

"In 1537, the Spanish Conquistadors discovered the potatoes and brought them back to Europe on their return trip. The first potatoes arrived in North America in 1621."

If the Pilgrims arrived in 1620, the Thanksgiving celebration was of a successful first crop after their first year in the New World. Probably no "classic" potatoes but perhaps "sweet potatoes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 11:16 AM

John on the Sunset Coast promised,

I'm going to chk with the Rabbi to see if cloned animals are or will be considered kosher.

My guess is that the verdict will be "no", based on the "building a fence around the law" syndrome.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 11:17 AM

But then, I'm not Jewish, so what do I know?

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 11:29 AM

"...only those animals with split hooves which chew their cud are kosher"

Must be more complicated than that, or chickens would be ruled out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Amos
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 11:31 AM

Well before the Spanish founded Saint Augustine the French had a fully operational community, founded I think in 1567 or so, where the first white-boy Thanksgiving feast was held. The Spanish, annoyed at the presence of a French cmmunity in the Spanish-claimed lands of Florida, set up Saint Augustine and used it as a base to launch an expedition against the French community, massacring them because they were Huguenots, a class of Protestants, and French to boot.

"Landing in balmy Florida in June of 1564, at what a French explorer had earlier named the River of May (now the St. Johns River near Jacksonville), the French émigrés promptly held a service of "thanksgiving." Carrying the seeds of a new colony, they also brought cannons to fortify the small, wooden enclosure they named Fort Caroline, in honor of their king, Charles IX."...

"Leading this holy war with a crusader's fervor, Menéndez established St. Augustine and ordered what local boosters claim is the first parish Mass celebrated in the future United States. Then he engineered a murderous assault on Fort Caroline, in which most of the French settlers were massacred. Menéndez had many of the survivors strung up under a sign that read, "I do this not as to Frenchmen but as to heretics." A few weeks later, he ordered the execution of more than 300 French shipwreck survivors at a site just south of St. Augustine, now marked by an inconspicuous national monument called Fort Matanzas, from the Spanish word for "slaughters.""

(Story in the NY Times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: kendall
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 01:30 PM

Now that we know why certain critters were considered not kosher, why do Jews still go by the old rules?
For instance, pig meat can contain trycnosis (too lazy to look it up)
Thats what killed some of the Arctic explorers. They ate Polar bear meat.
At certain times of the year, oysters are dangerous to eat. So are clams, but I know of no good reason to not eat Lobster. They are scavengers, but so are chickens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 02:57 PM

Uncle Dave, the nice thing about Judaism is you don't have to be Jewish to have an opinion, however, if you get two Jews together you'll get three opinions...and separate synagogues.
                     
                         -----------------
McGrath, it is way more detailed than what I wrote. If you want the details go to Leviticus. If you want the exegesis, or the scientific rationale, there are many sites that you'll find on the web.

                         ------------------
Kendall--because they can (many don't)? tradition? because they are observant of Jewish law? there's plenty to eat even without eating non-kosher foods? Take your pick, or give a reason of your own.

JotSC


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 02:59 PM

Hurrruuummmppppffffff!!!

Whos next??? Santa Clasue???

Hey, I gotta a piccure right here in my 3rd grade histroy book... It's a drwain' of the Indians and Pilgrims sitting with one another havin' turkey and taters and cranberrys and everybody is smilin' and look like they are all having fun... Now, what??? My history book is telling me a lie???

I ain't buyin' all this revisionism... Ya' know we didn't have this kinda problem until the Dems won the election...

Geeze...

Better hide, Santa... They coming fir yer butt next!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 03:13 PM

If anyone is interested in some more detail about Kasruth (Kosher food) you will find a short (they say Comprehensive, but it's really just a general overview) article:
here
or go to wikipedia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: gnu
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 04:03 PM

Barry? Yankee lobsters? Me? No. Ours are much tastier. But, expensive beyond the "tastier".


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 04:22 PM

I'll take Alberta spring lamb. Or equivalent from New Mexico or wherever.

What, Lobster? Why not? And don't forget red beans and rice with hot sausage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 08:07 PM

It's just that chicken are animals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 11:56 PM

Gnu, if you've got lobster that's testier than a New England lobster I'll need more info on it. Where it comes, what waters it lives & how can I get some? I've tasted Med lobster that the Italians boast about, Cajin crawlers that shouldn't be seen outside the swamp & Hawaiian & Floridan lobster's that's looks more like a lobster but tastes like a crab & look as if they been tanning for to long but I've never tasted a lobster that's comes close to being as good as a New England lobster. Not saying that there isn't better just if there is we'd (New Englanders) would love to know about it. Who else ships lobsters world wide????

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 04:20 AM

There's the Mock Ness Lobster of course.

As for kosher, why don't we eat dogs, cats, caterpillars, hamsters, horses, spiders? For many, the mere thought is disgusting, yet all of these are eaten in other cultures. It's cultural tradition, and there's nowt so queer as folk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 07:46 AM

Speakin' of lobsters, I was talkin' with my poor brother yesterday and seems he's tryin' to become "Steve the Lobster Man" down in Northern Virginia... He mety this guy from Nova Scotia who is a lobster-er (if that's a word???) and anyway now my brother has this little step van with "Lobsters" painted on the side in a nursery parking lot in Loudoun County...

He says the Novia Scotia lobsters is better than the Maine one's 'casue they have a harder shell??? I donno huthin' much about the critters myself... But what I do know is that there ain't no lobsters in the first Thanksgiving piccure in this History book...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: kendall
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 09:20 AM

Maine lobsters and Maritime Lobsters are exactly the same critter. Homarus Americanus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 08:54 PM

I'd be curious to know the source of Kovell's assertion that Pilgrim women wore green, blue, and purple--unless these were extremely faded.   According to Albion's Seed, an excellent book by David Hackett Fischer on the founding of the various regions of the original colonies, it is very likely that the main goal in New England garb as far as color was to avoid ostentation. The predominant colors would therefore be what we would call "earth tones", especially russet and "philly mort"( from the French "feuille morte" or dead leaf.)

It is true they avoided black--except for prominent citizens--"ruling elders and the governing elite" who were granted the privilege of wearing black as a mark of the community's respect. So "forget the black clothes" is also a bit too simple. Most did not wear them, some did.

Samuel Elliott Morrison wrote "Governor Bradford left a red waistcoat with silver buttons" among other clothes, but to extrapolate from this that men in general wore red linings in their clothes is unsupported--unless there are other sources which buttress this.

Interestingly enough, Fischer states that "sadd colors" popular in the 17th century survive in the older universities of New England. He describes Harvard's color as "a dreary off-purple euphemistically called crimson".

Harvard grads' comments?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving (Kosher cloned?)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:49 PM

I'm only 1 year, 11 months tardy in providing this information, but as they say, better late than never. I promised to find out if cloned meat, otherwise kosher is still kosher. I placed a call to a rabbi this morning, and hope to get a call back.

Meanwhile, it appears that such meat is kosher. I found this on two Jewish websites:

"A cloned animal is also born from a mother like any other animal - and since it is born from a Kosher animal, it is indeed kosher...A clone is merely that, instead of impregnating the female with a male, scientists take DNA from the original animal and put that in a womb for the natural birth process" This comment is about five years old.

Of course to be kosher for consumption, the animal must be ritually slaughtered, etc.

If I get a call back, I'll add that opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: open mike
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:42 PM

I have seen this elsewhere.... log cabins....
were built by Swedes who came 18 years later.....

It is good to know that the Swedes brought the
log cabin to this country!!

from a report i gave to my local Scandinavian Heritage Group
the VASA Lodge...
"The concept of the log house was brought to America by the first Swedish colonists, who established their colony, "New Sweden", in 1638.... The knowledge of log house construction was disseminated throughout the colonies and later throughout the whole country. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:09 PM

Last evening an Chassidic Rabbi responded to my question on Cloning/Kosher.

His caveat was that cloning itself is still an open ethical question, and certainly is regarding human cloning.

What I posted on 28 October is essentially correct. But the following really astounded me. Any animal, whether normally considered to be kosher or NOT, if it is gestated in the womb and born through the birth canal of a kosher animal is considered kosher. So, if a pig is cloned and the embryo is able to be implanted in a cow or ewe, and if it goes full term, and is born normally...that pig is kosher, and fit to be eaten by Jews. Of course, all the care, slaughtering and the parts of the animal able to be consumed must still be accounted for.


My work is done, here.
Rabbi Backman also stated that he would not eat such meat, especially not in public, because another Jew seeing him eat a ham steak, might get the impression that any ham would be fit for Jewish consumption.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: michaelr
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 12:48 AM

This boggles the mind:

if a pig is cloned and the embryo is able to be implanted in a cow or ewe, and if it goes full term, and is born normally...that pig is kosher, and fit to be eaten by Jews...

There is so much wrong with that, it's amazing. Not least the whole concept of cloning.

to be kosher for consumption, the animal must be ritually slaughtered...

When will people finally progress beyond such ridiculous rituals?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: gnu
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 02:43 PM

open mike... "The concept of the log house was brought to America by the first Swedish colonists..."

Well, the First nations built log hogans, albeit with a different technology, long before Europeans arrived.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 03:04 PM

Thanksgiving Myth-busting

I had always heard that Pocahontas brought the oyster dressing to the First Thanksgiving, but modern investigators believe it was a standard sage dressing that Squanto inadvertently dropped an oyster into. John Smith tasted it, proclaimed it "excellent!" and thus was born a very tasty Thanksgiving tradition.

John Rolfe did not, as has been suggested, create the green bean casserole with toasty onions. He did, however, taste a casserole brought by Sacajawea, and was heard to remark "very nice, but it could sure use a can of mushroom soup."

Sir Walter Raleigh's pheasant in tobacco leaves with a hollandaise sauce was less successful, to the point that he wasn't invited back, but was shunned to the point of returning to England, where Good Queen Bess had developed a two-pack a day habit, held Walter responsible, and had him axed for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: gnu
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 03:56 PM

Wish I could find Bob Newhart's telecon skit with Sir Walter Raleigh. I searched at Newhart but the only one I could find was a guy reading the transcript.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 12:21 AM

The second best way to find out about Pilgrims and the first Thanksgiving is to go here: http://www.plimoth.org/ . The best way is really to go there: to Plimoth Plantation in Plymouth, MA. Well, okay, it is a reconstruction and not where the original settlement was because by the time it was reconstructed there were shops, homes, etc., in the area of the original settlement.

Where I live, there are many Italian-American families. Many of them serve both turkey and lasagna on Thanksgiving. In my French-Canadian-American family, the turkey stuffing was the recipe as the one used make meat pie filling. This year since son and daughter-in-law are visiting relatives on the other side of the family, I'm spending Thanksgiving Day at Mystic Seaport where I will listen to whatever chantey singer is working that day and dine at their Latitude 41 restaurant. Sadly, no lobster dishes are on the special menu for that day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 04:56 AM

Ever since the first Otway fell off the boat into the new world, we celebrate Thanksgiving by remembering the story of the first thanksgiving.




The youngest child, generally the only one sober enough to speak, tells this story, before joining the adults in a gin and tonic.... Story of the First Thanksgiving.



It was the night before Christmas, and the Pilgrims where feeling a bit peckish, after the long swim from England, the Mayflower having hit an iceberg and sank. Captain Smith ordered the woman and children into the life boats first, as he knew that there were not enough boats for all, an old tradition in the British maritime, only to find they had forgotten the life boats all together. Although they were still in the Themes Estuary and a scant 10 minute swim to Wapping, they decided that as long as they were already wet, they'd go for it and struck out for New York.



On the way they talked it over and decided that as long as they were going through all the trouble they might as well swim to Massachusetts so that their grand kids would all be rich New Englanders in stead of poor New Yorkers, and who wanted to live in a city where the Mayor was a bad tempered Dutch guy with a wooden leg who called the place New Amsterdam anyway, so I am getting off the point, it was time for dinner.



So there were Indians there also, John Smith and his wife Pocahontas, because she was tired of her dad chasing her husband John around with an axe every time he made the same old joke "Hey, did the White guys pay the rent yet?". Christopher Columbus got the place of honor at the head of the table. He was very old at this point, and probably dead, but was such a figure of respect that no one told him, but rather made sure the head of the table was down wind from everyone and they didn't ask Chris to carve the turkey or they'd all starve.



The Turkeys were much larger then, as it was a long time ago and they were still evolving from their Dinosaur ancestors, so one or two fed all of New England, and there was still some left to make clothes out of. So, now you know why we pardon a Turkey at the white house every year, then chop its head off and eat it.



Happy Thanks Giving to all and to all a good night, after a little Alka-Seltzer

Cheers

Lorcan


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 12:15 PM

LOL!

~ Becky in Long Beach


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 08:31 PM

Not to argue anything, but a request for information:

Dam lobsters will be black by then unless I freeze them, ever eaten frozen lobster,

During the time I spent in the New England area, mid 1950s through early '60s, I was told by the locals that in most of the states there it was illegal to cook a dead lobster.

Since I do (rarely) find frozen lobster in the local markets, I must assume either that:

1. That law didn't apply everywhere, or

2. The reports I heard were mythical, or

3. The law(s) may have changed.

Anyody want to pick one, or suggest another choice?

(I haven't heard of anything similar for those other acquatic insects like shrimp or crawdads.)

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 09:44 PM

Sat next to a guy in a bar in New Orleans one night. He was served a small bucket full of crawdads.
By the time he had gone through about a dozen, I lost interest in my drink and decided not to eat dinner.

I like shrimp, crab and lobster, but those mudbugs sure turned me off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 11:50 PM

Never looked at what they use for bait for those crabs, I suppose?

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: maeve
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 12:05 AM

Here it is, gnu:

The script

Bob Newhart and Tobacco (Sir Walter Raleigh skit)


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 06:37 AM

That's the one... or a version of it. Thanks m.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 01:00 PM

Mark Twain on Thanksgiving-

"Thanksgiving Day, a function which originated in New England two or three centuries ago when those people recognized that they really had something to be thankful for- annually, not oftener- if they had succeeded in exterminating their neighbors, the Indians, during the previous twelve months instead of getting exterminated by their neighbors the Indians. Thanksgiving Day became a habit, for the reason that in the course of time, as the years drifted on, it was perceived that the exterminating had ceased to be mutual and was all on the white man's side, consequently on the Lord's side, consequently it was proper to thank the Lord for it."

From his recently published autobiography.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 01:36 PM

Brilliant, both Newhart and Twain. Thanks, maeve and Q!


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 12:49 PM

The Pilgrims Were ... Socialists?

"In the Tea Party view of the holiday, the first settlers were actually early socialists. They realized the error of their collectivist ways and embraced capitalism, producing a bumper year, upon which they decided that it was only right to celebrate the glory of the free market and private property.

"Historians quibble with this interpretation."

Details at the link...

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 02:08 PM

Everybody rewrites history in their own image.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 05:09 PM

Earliest thanksgivings in the colonies derived from Guy Fawkes Day celebrations via the book of common prayer

http://mysite.verizon.net/cbladey/guy/html/thanksgiving.html


Guy Fawkes Day and Thanksgiving


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 05:27 PM

Point of information:
Green Bean Casserole was invented by the folks that manufacture Campbell Soups, in an attempt to demonstrate their product's versatility. French's Fried Onions were also a product of the same company (I'm not sure about the beans.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: gnu
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 05:40 PM

Q.... indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 06:06 PM

Many types of 'green beans'. In NE U. S., refers to the string bean or spap bean, a type of P. vulgaris.
They can be damn tasty, regardless of whose recipe, Campbell's or other. We buy them frozen here in winter, and use them in chicken pot pies and stews. In summer, you have to get to the market early to avoid the elbows of shoppers picking through the pile.

The casserole, popular in some areas of the U. S. at Thanksgiving, usually is composed of the beans, french onions and mushroom soup.
Raised in the west, I had never eaten the casserole, until I spent a Thanksgiving with friends in New Jersey.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 06:15 PM

We had never heard of it out here in WY or Co, either. I did learn of it back East, but hope to never be "exposed" to it, again.:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 08:10 PM

Campbells first marketed their Cream of Mushroom soup in 1934, but snapbean casserole recipes go back before then. I have one that calls for cream sauce, but says cream of mushroom soup may be used as a substitute.

Green Bean Casserole

2 pkg. French-style frozen beans, thawed
1 can water chestnuts
1 can bean sprouts, drained
1 large can sliced mushrooms
1 med. onion, chopped.
2 cups medium cream sauce
   (or cream of mushroom soup)
Salt to taste
Grated cheese to taste.
1 can French-fried onions.

Layer half the beans, water chestnuts, bean sprouts, mushrooms and onions in 2-qt casserole. Cover with half the cream sauce; sprinkle with salt and cheese. Repeat layers. Bake at 400F for c. 20 minutes. Top with onions; bake for 10 minutes longer or until bubbly. Sherry may be added. May be prepared a day ahead and refrigerated.

From Beta Sigma Phi Holiday Cookbook. (no date)

Campbell's Classic Green Bean Casserole

1 can (10 3/4 oz) Campbell's Condensed Cream of Mushroom soup
(regular, 98% fat-free or Healthy request)
1/2 cup milk
1 teaspoon soy sauce
Dash ground black pepper
4 cups cooked cut green beans or 2 pkg frozen, thawed
1 1/3 cups French's French Fried Onions

Stir soup, milk, soy, pepper, beans and 2/3 cup onions in a 1 1/2 quart casserole.
Bake at 350F for 25 minutes or until the bean mixture is hot and bubbling. Stir. Sprinkle with the remaining onions.
Bake for 5 minutes or until the onions are golden brown.

www.campbellskitchen.com/recipedetail.aspx?recipeId=24099

Reminds me of the broccoli-French Fried Onion-Cream of mushroom soup casserole recipe we occasionally use, from the classic White Trash Cooking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 11:36 AM

Dick Greenhaus said Green Bean Casserole was invented by the folks that manufacture Campbell Soups, in an attempt to demonstrate their product's versatility. French's Fried Onions were also a product of the same company (I'm not sure about the beans.) This is just some misinformation conjured up by the powerful anti-John Rolfe lobby.
I am susceptible to the charms of the green bean casserole. What I notice is the disproportionate cost of the fried onions in comparison to the other ingredients. Its like 5 bucks for a 16 ounce can. And basically, as far as I can tell, there is absolutely no other reasonable recipe that uses them as a component.
What I grew up eating in Kentucky and never developed an affection for is those damned candied yams with melted marshmallows on them. Its like a big mouthful of extra-sweet mush, and I fail to see how that enhances the flavor of turkey.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 11:56 AM

The candied yam plague had spread in the midwest, too, by at least 60 years ago. I never could imagine why anyone would want to eat that, short of desperate starvation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 12:18 PM

fp, as far as I can tell, nobody wants them. Inevitably, the candied yam dish gets passed around with someone occasionally removing a tablespoonful which probably ends up getting scraped into the garbage can.
Toward the end of dinner, the hostess goes into the hard sell mode on them. "Did everybody get some of Aunt Thelma's delicious candied yams?" she says, holding up the dish and brandishing a spoonful of the ungodly mixture. Everyone then mutters something about oh yes they were wonderful but I just couldn't eat another thing, which effectively cuts you off from third helpings of the really good stuff. Then the hostess will still insist on passing the yam casserole around while Aunt Thelma looks crestfallen, and so I generally take yet another disgusting dollop, which I break into sections and merge with other leftovers on my plate.
Can't we all just agree that we don't like the yams prior to Thanksgiving Dinner and suggest to Thelma that she bring something innocuous like jello with grapes in it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 12:46 PM

I don't know guys. I have a Pilgrim teddy bear dressed in black that tells a ten minute narration of the original Thanksgiving. The Indians were invited as a thank you for teaching the immigrants how to grow corn. Are you telling me that Hallmark would lie?
I plan on inflicting this device on family and friends on Thursday. I bet my great grandnephew will want to play it more than once. heh heh
I don't believe we will have to eat gloppy string beans but there definitely be creamed onions.
Happy Thanksgiving all.
SINS


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 02:52 PM

No, we can't all agree not to have candied yams. A princely dish. But the recipe is incomplete without pecans. Ofter had at New Year's.

Many recipes use fried onions. Good fried onions are not dry like French's.

Glazed Yams with Pecan Topping
(red-skinned), about 4 large (4 pounds)
Peel and cut into rounds, about 1/4 inch thick

1/2 cup pure maple syrup
1 stick (1/4 pound) chilled butter, cut in pieces
1/3 cup flour
1/3 cup packed brown or golden sugar
1/2 cup chopped pecans
(Optional- top with whole pecans)

Put yam slices in boiling salted water. Cook until water starts to bubble again. Drain and rinse in cold water.

Butter baking dish, about 9 x 13 inches. Put in yams, overlap slightly. Dot with 1/3 of the butter.
Bake at 375-400 F for about 25 minutes until yams moderately tender.
Mix flour and sugar, add remaining butter. Rub until mixture resembles coarse meal. Mix in chopped pecans.
Sprinkle pecan mixture on yams.
(Optional, add pecan halves as topping after baking the dish for about 15 minutes).
Bake for about 20 minutes at 375-400 F.
Can be covered and allowed to cool. Can be re-warmed (uncovered) at 350-375 F for 20 minutes prior to serving.

Many variants using mashed yams.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 03:31 PM

sounds considerably better than Aunt Thelma's, q. Still, it also sounds like more of a dessert to me, and I'm saving room for the pumpkin pie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: gnu
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 03:41 PM

Pumpkin pie... and strong tea... mmmmmmmmm. Me mum used to bake three.. two large and one small, the small to be set in front of Dad upon extracation from the hob, immediately!


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 03:41 PM

I love mashed sweet potatoes, with butter, salt and pepper and nothing else. Of course, I grew up with yams with brown sugar and butter. We never had pecans, but I don't think they'd do anything but improve the dish. You can stick those marshmallows someplace else, though.

I LIKE green bean casserole!


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 08:06 PM

What's a hob?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: maeve
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 08:16 PM

Hob = stove, Sinsull.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 08:23 PM

therefore, by process of deduction, a hob-goblin would be a mischievious spirit who possesses your oven?
That's the kind of folkloric question that could just hoist this thread above the BS line...


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 05:44 PM

To answer SINSULL, a hob (hub) is a projection or device, usually to one side of a fireplace, on which something could be placed or hung to keep warm. In print in the 1500s as hub, 1600s as hob. Several other meanings.

Hobgoblin (OED) in print in 1530, origin unknown. About the same time, a hob could be an elf, a spirit, etc. so it could be a word with a double emphasis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:32 PM

Glen Beck has spent 2 weeks describing exactly how people are to now celebrate Thanksgiving. Its getting more complicated every year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 04:20 PM

Beck, being as full of shit as a holiday fowl, is uniquely qualified for that job.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thanksgiving historical corrections (USA)
From: LadyJean
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 03:00 PM

Merci Bien Nancy King for the Buchwald Thanksgiving, which I remember with affection.

I reccomend reading "The Mayflower", which tells of the rather Byzantine nature of the relations between the Pilgrims and the Indians. Incidentally, not all settlers at Plymouth Plantation were "Pilgrims". Some of them were Anglicans and not particularly puritanical. The Billington family being a prime example.


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