Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!

Subject: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:09 AM

Picked up this CD yesterday, from one of those '3 for a fiver' buckets at the supermarket checkout. You know how it goes, you see one you actually want and then scrabble to find two others.

Well one of these that I chanced it with was something called "Celtic Heart, Celtic Women". Yeah I know, what was I thinking... Should have known better, but it was a mad panic purchase. And yesterdays roast was already being beeped, and packed solo by an annoyed bf.

So anyway, I put it on today, and guess what, it's utterly atrocious... Really bad, I mean so bad it hurts. So bad it knots your intestines into pretty little bows. That mystical echoe, those soothing panpipes, the 'funky' synthasised beat, the pretty trilling, the excessive and badly executed vocal ornamentation. Aaaaaaaaaagh!

This is a subject that's been done before no doubt. But really, someone should have warned me. What would you submit as the worst folk musical car-crash style purchase you've ever made? Just so I know in future...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:30 AM

Bought an LP [remember them?] called Let's Go Folksy, by The Charleston Trio.

RUBBISH !!!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:33 AM

The style you describe so well seems to have been inspired largely by the pop stylings of Enya and the later Clannad. In tiny doses and taken for what it is (pop music for a pop audience utterly unfamiliar with trad), it can be enjoyable. Otherwise - Aaaaaaaaaagh!, as you say.

Think twice about buying anything that plays up the word "Celtic" rather than something more specific like "Irish," especially if it also plays up the word "Woman."

I recently watched a TV special by the supergroup Celtic Woman. Plenty of talent, but no relationship to traditional music except for the use of two or three songs in thoroughly pop settings. The network commentators raved about the "real Celtic tradition" presented by the singers and their large back-up orchestra. (Pixie violinist Mairead Nesbitt, of Lord of the Dance fame, was great - as usual - when she played reels with the flair that comes from long Classical training. Actual trad fiddlers don't leap around on tiptoe when they play, however: a minor point.)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:35 AM

Lol!

Let's Go Folksy? Lovely..
I'm already laughing at the title. Somehow so 'evocative'

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:35 AM

"the later Clannad"

I thought Clannad preceded Enya?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:37 AM

I think he means that later Clannad was the poppy stuff - early Clannad was relatively traditional.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:45 AM

Oh, I know, Rosie!

Did she sing in a wispy, babyish manner? Only two kinds of female voice are permitted in commercial Celtic. One is wispy and babyish, the other is hard and thin. Hard and thin seems unlikely, given the panpipes.

Does she put the same ornaments in the same place on every repeat?

Why do I even ask, right?

However, a CD like that might provide a good song for you to sing yourself. It might have something worth learning and doing right.

If not, you can hang it in the garden to scare critters that are after your tomatoes or berries.
============
A couple years ago I threw out a CD with a name such as 'Celtic Legends'. It probably came from a display in the greeting-card section of a Target store. (It was a gift.)

The music itself was good, but they put the very same ornaments in the very same place every time (and there were many times)that they played the same phrase with the same instruments.

I told myself not to let it get to me, but finally I decided it wasn't worth the strain, and out it went.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:50 AM

Ah, I see what you mean.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:53 AM

Rogues Gallery, volumes 1 and 2?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:59 AM

Wispy female voices appear to be in vogue at the moment, I hate them.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:21 AM

An ultra cheapo British label called Hallmark once marketed an ultra cheapo series of "ethnic music" releases. The problem was that the ones I checked sounded just like extremely anodine forms of new wave music. Never knew they played anything like that in Africa!

Then there was a perfectly good Otis Spann LP, on Decca if I remember correctly, onto which some clown had dubbed awful and awfully inapproriate brass and reed backings.

Then there was the EP which Gael Linn released of Labhrás Draper. Surpassed in awfulness only by their EP of Albert Fry.

But the turkey, the real deal Christmas butterball of all eternity has to be an LP from Northern Ireland. I've long forgotten the title but it came out on a label called Cuhullain and consisted of some of the worst republican songs and the worst republican singing I ever could have imagined. These were interspersed by appallingly hysterical monologues about the cruelty and hatred which the ogres of the loyalist community showed towards the helpess Catholic minority. To make things even worse, the whole thing was shot through with gunfire and explosions in widespread stereo, so that I felt as though I was sitting in the middle of a battlefield.

I tell you, brethren, my loyalty to the cause was tested that night.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: breezy
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM

why buy something you havent heard anyway?

thats women for you!

woosh I'm outta here

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Meggly
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 12:11 PM

I don't know if this counts cause I didn't buy it but our next door neighbour once appeared on our door-step to lend us an Irish Folk-music Kareoke DVD.

She'd heard us playing our, English, folk music and thought we might like it.

Gawd knows where she got it from though. I think she was tempted by the promise of the Irish country-side back-drops to the songs (unfortunately the DVD was so cheaply made that they used the same picture of a hill for every song; they couldn't even be bothered to cliche it up with a picture of a glass of whiskey for 'Whiskey in the Jar'). The music itself is in an out-of-rhythm synth-pop style.

We played it once, got drunk, sang along, pi**ed ourselves and put it on the shelf. Still, it gave us something to do.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Nick
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 12:37 PM

I got a box full of LPs given to me not so long ago and there is some awful rubbish in it. I'll see if I can bear to listen and pick out particular awful ones.

Not folk but I did once buy one of Devo's albums and still am not totally sure why. Interesting version of 'Satisfaction' on it.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 12:39 PM

Just for a laugh I bought Sounds of Sunset by Basil Henriques ("He makes easy listening Easy Listenin'!" boast the sleevenotes) which was worth it just to hear O'Carolan tunes played on Hawaiian guitar. Occupies pride of place in my record collection (next to Tijuana Christmas...)

I'm sure it's a sign of getting older, but novelty easy listening records just ain't what they used to be...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Wee Faloorie Man
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 12:42 PM

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/lute.htm

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 12:44 PM

This reminds me of something I heard on the radio yesterday: "This American Life" on NPR, told the story of a two guys who had done some extensive market research to find out what people liked and didn't like in music. They ran a survey and then compiled a list. People liked guitars, drums, and synthesizers (the same instruments most pop musicians use); they disliked bagpipes, banjos, accordions (the same instruments folkies like to joke about). They liked low-pitched voices (both men's and women's voices) and disliked high-pitched voices, especially children's voices. They liked solo singers and duets and disliked choirs. They liked moderately paced music and disliked music that was very slow or very fast. As topics, they liked love songs and disliked religious themes or "holiday songs." They disliked rap and opera. (Obviously, some people do like rap and opera, but they are a minority, and the researchers were looking for the broadest possible consensus.)

Then they produced two recordings, one having all the "positive" characteristics and one having all the "negative."

The "good" one was boring, but the "bad" one was HILARIOUS. It reminded me of the stuff Peter Schickele composes as P. D. Q. Bach.

Imagine a children's choir, accompanied by bagpipes, singing, very fast, "Labor Day! Labor Day!..."

You can listen to This American Life here. The episode is called "Numbers" and the segment is "Act Two. Paint by Numbers."

The creators' web site is here. Unfortunately, it doesn't contain any sound samples. I guess you'll have to listen to the program.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Colin Randall
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 12:56 PM

My version of Del Shannon's Runaway, made in a seafront self-recording booth about 100 years ago in Blackpool.

Anything on the old Woolworth's label Embassy

More on topic, though, I agree with Lighter about anything including the word Celtic. There was a fairly grim Celtic Christmas album a little while ago and I came across a review copy a fortnight ago, but Sleepy Rosie's ears should be safe from that one for another 10 or 11 months.

Wasn't there also a Folk Orchestra once? And I slipped an early Clancy Brothers compilation into the car CD player the other day - and winced. It served a great purpose in its time - I recall thinking the Clancys were terrific then - but it sounds horrendous now. But then, I think the same about early Dubliners, but love what they developed into until Luke's death.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: ClaireBear
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:08 PM

I hereby submit Rod McKuen's 1995 holiday recording, New Carols for Christmas, (purchased for 25 cents at the thrift store as a joke gift for an as-yet unchosen individual, I hasten to add).

Claire

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Darowyn
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:27 PM

Don't you go saying bad things about Basil Henriques!
He is a superb professional and session musician, an acknowledged authority on traditional Hawaiian music, a key figure in British steel guitar playing and a good friend.
I don't know if it was that record, but on one of his Hawaiian "Hotel Lobby" (His words) music LPs, he was recording at Abbey Road and a couple of young men called Lennon and Mc Cartney played rhythm and bass guitars on one of the tracks- they were there at the time!
The Easy Listening albums were made for one very good reason- EMI paid him lots of money to do them. That's what professional musicians do- pay what they are paid to play!
Basil is originally Irish by the way, and is very familiar with both Carolan tunes and more folky Irish music.
If a Greek bouzouki can be Irish by adoption, why not a Hawaiian guitar?
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 05:28 PM

Purchased to really annoy a friend over the festive season - 'A box and a banjo for Christmas'... all your seasonal favourites played on the concertina and banjo.

You haven't lived until you've heard 'Mistletoe and wine' on the banjo....

We were evil... we were the guests that year at Christmas lunch and brought the music as our contribution, without showing him the contents. One of those posh players that took 5 CDs on a cassette - on shuffle. His face was a picture!




























Ever seen that one by Edvard Munsch?

LTS

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 07:36 PM

Wasn't there a thread on Celtic Woman a while back? Let me see now... Ah yes - here it is: http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=100526&messages=95

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 07:52 PM

Yep. I meant that "early Clannad," while stayed close to traditional material, even while enhancing it with a jazzy backup. Then they started doing mostly contemporary material with even jazzier backup and synthesizers. That's when they lost me.

What bugs me is not styles that don't appeal to me. It's the marketing of pop music and folk-rock as "traditional folk music."

But that's something that goes back fifty years.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ref
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:04 PM

The grotesquely over-orchestrated Weavers album done with (TA-DA!)an orchestra. Anything done with a horde of bellowing children for a back-up chorus. The sound track from Cold Mountain, particularly after T-Bone Burnett did such a great job with O, Brother.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Fidjit
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:35 AM

I have a Wally Wyton LP somewhere.

Now according to your stuff on here I think I'll put it on and listen.

My celtic shelf is gathering dust.

Chas

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:08 AM

"the whole thing was shot through with gunfire and explosions in widespread stereo, so that I felt as though I was sitting in the middle of a battlefield.
I tell you, brethren, my loyalty to the cause was tested that night."

"He makes easy listening Easy Listenin'!"

"Anything done with a horde of bellowing children for a back-up chorus."

"they used the same picture of a hill for every song;"

...Oh now come on Meggily an Irish Folk Song Kareoke DVD?
Now there's a classy nights entertainment. I want one.
No really, I want one.

I'm in one hell of an exellent mood today.
Cheers for the giggles. Enjoying all the replies to this thread.
Any more contenders?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:24 AM

Colin Randall: My version of Del Shannon's Runaway, made in a seafront self-recording booth about 100 years ago in Blackpool.

Do you know, Colin, I think I'd really, really like to hear that...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:58 AM

Liz....I'm glad someone else has A Box and Banjo Christmas....I thought I'd imagined it!!

It's the way every track manages to include that same "diddle diddle dum" riff at the end of each A music that really gets to you

Baz

Who also has a Tijuana Christmas....

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:07 AM

Ah, there's a reason for that... like the bass drum going 'dump dump, dump dump, da ra dump dump' in the last 32 bars of any military march, it's to let the rest of the band know that the A music is about to finish.

It was only £3...

LTS

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 07:46 AM

"However, a CD like that might provide a good song for you to sing yourself. It might have something worth learning and doing right."

Yep Leeneia, I thought something similar. It'll be like one of those Dante-esque parental punishments for a wayward child... Just a masochistic version ;-)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 07:53 AM

I remember picking up, many years ago, a nicely packaged cassette of sea shanties recorded by a group of "Dutch fishermen". The accompanying booklet had full sets of lyrics (in English) - and they looked like excellent, authentic sets. BUT.... the singing was awful! Turned out to be a very stiff choir who should have been injected with neat gin before they were let loose on material like this! Ah, well...

Regards

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:04 AM

"Turned out to be a very stiff choir who should have been injected with neat gin before they were let loose on material like this!"

Heresy! Should have been neat rum, surely! :-)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:10 AM

Maybe Dutch fishermen prefer gin?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Gedpipes
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:10 AM

Hello Rosie
Can I have my CD back please. Some bugger pinched it from our house and I'm missing it.
Blue skies
Ged :-)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Gedi
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:13 AM

Box and Banjo Christmas - yes I too fell for it - since I play a melodeon myself I stupidly thought I might pick up some good tunes etc.

Sadly to my ears the whole album sounds like its been done on a Bontempi Organ! Truly awful.

Ged

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:26 AM

Celtic women? Aren't those ladies who, for reasons known only to themselves, like to sing whilst languishing at the bottom of wells?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:42 AM

Thought some of the members might rather enjoy this...

(I have been told by male friends, that some men like to watch Hollyoaks with the sound off. And pass this suggestion on, as an option to enhance your listening pleasure.)

Some-WuuHHair Over the Rainbow by Celtic-u-like Totty

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:51 AM

Zzzzzzz.....

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:55 AM

Sleepy Rosie's post should have come with a more implicit warning.
I didn't have a large bucket to hand and I've made a mess all over the keyboard.

In all innocence I once bought "Tina Turner sings Country" for £1.99
at a Little Chef near the Welsh border. Charity Shops have refused to accept it.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:19 AM

"However, a CD like that might provide a good song for you to sing yourself. It might have something worth learning and doing right."

Actually as it turns out Leeneia, I know a couple of them already. As the boyfriend generously observed while I was playing it for his delectation:
"Even you sing it better than that...."

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:25 AM

Oh Rosie... that YouTube link led to another- and another...

One song I could cope with (they have beautifully pure voices and VERY pretty dresses, after all) but the anodyne arrangements and presentation makes me wonder how anyone could sit through a whole concert.

Need to go and do something to clear my head!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Fidjit
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:35 AM

And from the notices that they got. This. ! ! !
Dutch taste differs obviously.



They're all so gorgeous, too...
DaRkSymphoniCa (13 uur geleden) Toon Verbergen
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WOW!
their voices are amazing!!
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But what about the arrangement than animeiimport? This one is as close to the JG original today as can be. Leona Lewis and all the others sing the Eva Cassiday or modern r&b-version of it, making it a completely diferent song. I was glad to hear a modern version that sounded like it was intended.
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they are incredible but i can t say the same about the arrangement of the piece.
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I never thought I would like a song as much as "Concrete Angel" by Martina McBride, but this this beautiful song definetely rivals it! I love the celtic women- they have beautiful voices!
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tout simplement : beau !
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no words can discribe how amazing they are
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Oh My Gosh! It's simply beautiful!
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This hormony in their voices... simply amazing.
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Amaaaaaaaaging. Love!





Chas

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:39 AM

So. we manage to save something valuable from the wreckage.
===
That survey that was described on NPR (see Jim Dixon's post above) is suspect. Perhaps if went out and surveyed a bunch of people who don't care much about music and pay little attention to it, we would get the opinions referred to.

Just as if we surveyed anybody about flowers, we would get the same, well-worn responses - 'I like roses. Oh, yeah, and what-ya-call-its, irises.'

Above, Baz mentioned 'every track manages to include that same "diddle diddle dum" riff at the end of each A." I doubt that the people surveyed would notice that repetitive riff, and I doubt that they would know what Baz means by an A.

I think that repetitive riff is there because some leaden-souled exec made them do it. Just as every Kleenex box needs the same Kleenex logo, every folk piece needs the same folk gimmick. Or so he fondly imagines.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:53 AM

At what point in history (I wonder) did "Celtic" come to mean twee and anodyne?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:55 AM

Ah, the genre I usually refer to as "Celto-crap". Alas, some people actually LIKE it. (No one in our circle, thanks.)

I'm not particularly fond of pop vocalists who have no grounding in traditional folk at all recording with The Chieftains. (Of whom, as a result, I have a very low opinion and a vocabulary usually reserved for politicians and used car salesmen.)

Also in general recordings of "ye olde English bawdy songs" or "Robert Burns' bawdy songs" usually turn out to be hideous, especially if done in chorus. Arghhhh!!!

Wispy voiced female singers drive me up a wall. As do singers who don't do their research or have no feeling for trad.

By the way, ALL Dutch and German shanty and sea music performance is done in large choruses with all the parts written out -- no place for improvised harmonies or spontanaety.

Linn

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:08 AM

Celtic Woman, are glamorous "theatre" really aren't they? Clearly got excellent voices underneath all that grotesque sugary production. And I bet they're making a mint. So probably not too dumb either.

Still, dunno how anyone could cope with enduring one of their shows, unless there's a 'contented compliance' drug being circulated through the air conditioning.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:19 AM

Bat Goddess

You mean there's more? Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh...... ;>)

Regards

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:25 AM

"You mean there's more?"

Oh yes...

Come 'Ere, There's More...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:37 AM

Sounds like you picked a doozie there, Sleepy Rosie. I don't think I've ever bought a record or CD that turned out to be dreadful. I have bought the odd one that was a below my expectations, but never one that was "dreadful".

However, I must mention just in passing...for those of you who will be shocked and dismayed to hear it...this one thing: I really like Enya. I LOVE her music. I think she's wonderful.

Live with it. ;-)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: bubblyrat
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:39 AM

Well, I took a risk and bought a "Celtic Legends " -type double-CD, complete with unlikely-looking ,highly stylised picture of obligatory "blind fiddler" on the sleeve, and it is actually rather GOOD !! Altan--Patrick Street--Kornog---Tannahill Weavers--unpronouncable mega-group from Galicia ( stunning !! )--and loads more !!----it's one of my most treasured (and most played ) recordings !
               As to bass drums----well, I was a percussionist (bass-drum,side-drum and cymbals) in a military (Naval) band for 11 years, and the importance of the double-beat signal from the bass-drummer with regard to A) halting the band whilst marching and B) finishing a march / tune in the right place and all at the same time, cannot be over-emphasised !! When I hear "bass-drummers" and other "percussionists" in Morris-sides, putting double beats at the end of every phrase ,to no apparent purpose, it makes my blood boil ....GGRRRRRR !!!!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:41 AM

Wait! It might not be perfect but somebody's got to start somewhere. It's not easy to
make a decent recording. I've been trying to do so for years and haven't to my satisfaction so far.

What is dreadful is that folk music doesn't get heard at all and is dismissed.

Celtic Woman may not be the music of the people but those ladies do know how to sing and the music is of good quality. By this I mean it is well-thought out, lovely, and although the content is not of a traditional folk expression, it has musical value.

You could hurl those thunderbolts at Joan Baez and Judy Collins as well and you would be
narrow in your view of what constitutes musical quality.

The word "Celtic" has become a recording company term as does the word "Hillbilly" or even "Rhythm and Blues". It purports to define a market for a certain type of music and what is wrong with that?

i think there exists a kind of folk-snobbery that is unfounded. There is all kinds of music in the world. Some of it has patches of sunshine mixed in with cloudy drivel.

I try to appreciate the sunny elements of every performance though there are obviously preferences that we all have.

I don't believe in censorship. Let it all be out there and accept or reject but to say something is dreadful is setting up an icon that has to be defended by reason and taste and not by mere opinion.

Celtic Woman may not be "Celtic" by some standards but I think it is a great opportunity to open the door to appreciation of Irish music to those not familiar with it. Then we can move on to Willie Clancy, Margaret Barry, Mary Black, Altan etc. to enrich us further.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Fidjit
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:56 PM

If you didn't like Sleepy Rosies, Corrs

Then you won't like this

Chas

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Colm O`Shea
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:19 PM

To be sure, Sleepy Rosie, whoever is doing the singing on that French & Saunders skit certainly puts most of the girl singers on today`s "folk" scene to shame!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:28 PM

Fidjit
I loved it.... and I have been to that session at least once.

I love Paul Whitehouse. ARSE

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Colin Randall
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:21 PM

Frank Hamilton has a point. Or half a point.

It IS snobbish to look down on albums promising Celtic Christmas, Celtic Strings, Celtic Dream, Celtic Drivel et al

But we have to endure so much snobbishness directed at us that we must be allowed our moment of revenge.

The fact is that the adjective is inserted quite cynically as a marketing tool. Nothing wrong with marketing, you may say, Frank, and nothing wrong with trying to package folk/trad for the masses. But also nothing wrong with the rest of us having our chance to turn up our noses at something.

Colin

Salut! Live




t

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Whistleworks
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:29 PM

Let's not forget William Shatner's version of MacArthur Park.... blecch.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Nerd
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:27 PM

BubblyRat,

There's a reason that recording is so good. I bet it was one of the ones put out by Green Linnet, which was the actual record label for all those artists. Toward the end of their existence, Green Linnet decided to cash in on the Celtic Crap vogue by making compilations of their own artists and marketing them exactly like other companies marketed Celtic Crap. Only Green Linnet artists were the ones you mentioned, not crap at all! Clever, eh?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:47 PM

Shatner brings something brand new to everything he touches.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:06 PM

This recording sums up everything I dislike about classical singers and composers trying to 'arrange' folk songs. Especially after hearing the Sangsters sing it so well at Edinburgh Folk Club recently....

Bonnie Earl of Moray

KP

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:11 PM

Both YouTube bits were a riot, but Saunders' clip was genius.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: oldhippie
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:15 PM

Not a purchase - someone gifted me a CD "Transmigrations" by Wolf Krakowski. One listen and it went straight into the trash.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:03 PM

You know, I hope you don't mind me saying, but.....there's one helluva lot of pompous drivel in this thread.

I *love* The Corrs
I *love* Enya
I *love* Clannad
I *love* The Chieftans

What I can't stand is arrogant viewpoints that 'we' are so much better than 'them', because 'we' know all about proper 'traditional' music.

Pah.


The Corrs

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ref
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:58 PM

Lizzie:

This is just a minor outpouring of curmudgeonliness. (If that's not a word, it should be one, especially on THIS website!) I like the groups you've mentioned as well. I think the swipes at them were taken because of forays into experimentation that didn't meet with commenters' approval. Some I agree with, some I don't. Go over and take a look at the vitriolic "Homage to Rise up Singing" thread if you want to see some REAL holier-than-thou "pompous drivel."

I was just talking with my spouse who overheard me listening to Celtic Women. We agreed it would be better and probably lower ticket prices if the ladies would just come out on stage with a few (many fewer!) instruments and let their lovely voices carry the load. Maybe they make better money with the "Arena Celtic" shows, but none of it will be mine!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 07:06 PM

I'm scared now... that means there are THREE copies of 'A Box and Banjo at Christmas' out there.... help me mummy?!

LTS

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:36 AM

I don't think my dislike of Enya (for example) is in any way arrogant or curmudgeonly. I'm very fond of Irish music (and Scottish music, and English music), but I dislike the "Celtic" schtick that is beloved of the media people and the advertising people and the marketing people and which, at it's worst, turns the whole thing into twee, mushy sensation with no guts and iron in it.

My son gave me the 3-CD (edited reissue) set of "The All Electric Muse - Folk into Folk Rock" for Christmas. A very mixed bag but, when I listen to Shirley Collins and Davy Graham performing "Pretty Saro", or the Fureys thrashing their way through "The Mason's Apron" at high revs (and over the top it is, in some ways), I know why I don't like Enya. It's the difference between a ripe Stilton and factory-processed Cheddar.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:45 AM

Just for the record, the disc I picked up as a part of my three for a fiver supermarket 'deal', wasn't actually by "Celtic Woman", it was some other piece of generic Celtic-u-like splodge with a simlar sounding generic Celtic-u-like title. And neither do I pretend to know anything about real traditional music. I'm still a complete newb. I am however entitled to post a humorously intended thread about something that hurt my ears, and made me grimace. And of course laugh.

As a new person becoming interested in folk, if my only exposure to folk was this kind of mass marketed "Easy Listenin!", I would simply dismiss it out of hand. Just like S Club 7 or Kylie or any other typical toot you might wish to mention.

My tuppney is that these type of recordings are for a type of listener who will never truly desire to learn anything more about traditional music, and that these discs will simply go quietly in the background, to brief complemenatary observances of "this is nice isn't it dear?" and then on the shelf next to last Christmas' Cliff Richard album, ABBA Gold, The Three Tenors box set, and Leslie Garrett goes Pop! (well one can wish) and possibly some Hermans Hermits if your genuinely lucky (I quite like Hermans Hermits truth be known... :-/ ). I'm sure that all this has been said before however, and on far more vitriolic threads than this.

As for Celtic Woman, Enya, The Corrs et al, I wouldn't sweat it for them. They sure won't be. They know full well what they are doing, and as a consequence are of course doing very nicely thankyou!

Re that Corrs clip, sure I'd happily jump about to that, after a beer or two. Unfortuately I can't see those girls now, without Dawn French superimposing herself over their faces....

Now back on topic and On With the Silliness

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:50 AM

With the Silliness

Magic! I must have a copy.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:57 AM

Rosie - that's superb. I particularly liked Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Barn.

Reminds me of Momus's classic work of folktronica, Finnegan the Folk Hero:

"He could stream Quicktime
He could code in Flash
He could make your icons dance with Java,
Then empty out your trash..."

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:08 AM

Hey LTS.
A Box and a Banjo at Christmas.....Want Want Want!!! Salivating here!
Swap you a Hackney Martians CD? Waddya say!
Ho Ho Ho Ralphie.
PS Asa rule of thumb, anything with the word "Celtic" in the title, I usually avoid with extreme prejudice!!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:23 AM

Used to adore Momus! Greek God of mockery, just checked. I knew it was some spiked classical reference.
Wonderful wicked lyricist. Thanks for that.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:08 AM

If the "Over the Rainbow" clip is typical, what Celtic Women are doing is barbershop. Which may not be considered very cool these days when anybody else does it, but it's a bit late to complain about its existence.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:45 AM

OMG, Rosie: "A cross between Hermann Goering and the Wurzels" - brilliant!!!!!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:57 AM

Has anybody posted this link here before?

O Holy Night

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 08:08 AM

Jesus, Jack. What the hell is that? You've frightened my dog.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Gedi
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 08:21 AM

there I was sitting quietly having my sandwich at work, and then that! What are you trying to do to me..... ; )

That's definately one to avoid at all costs.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 08:22 AM

Great Thread this! I'd forgotten how gorgeous (and they can play) the Corrs Girls are, but everything pales besides 'Now that's what I call 80s Electro Pop Folk Songs'. Thanks Lizzie and Rosie!
KP

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 08:22 AM

"Lizzie:

This is just a minor outpouring of curmudgeonliness."

Yeah, but I'm afraid that the English folk scene, for me now, is about a major outpouring of curmudgeonliness, most of the time.

It saddens me, Ref, because I feel it drives many people away, and it keeps some damned fine music locked away.

I been through the 'Let's Bash The Corrs' syndrome on the BBC board, many a time, with a certain poster on here. I actually didn't like the French and Saunders 'spoof' off the band either, finding it very bitchy, not funny.

If The Corrs weren't talented, to be honest, I'd still not like it much, but hell, you *cannot* poke fun at those musicians, because they sure know about music! They've been singing it as long as The Young Coppers have, with and in their family, all their lives!

And if the girls all look so alike, and ALL of them are beautiful, is that something they should have to endure nastiness for? They ARE stunningly beautiful, but so what?

Is there some feeling that you can only be taken seriously in the folk world if your plain as a pikestaff, no make up, no erotic movement of your body, no long eyelashes, but you just stand there in yer Doc Martens belting out the song, not giving a damn how you look or who's watching, because hey *you* are a 'traditionalist' worshipping at the Holy Altar of English Folk Music, and it is ALLLLLLLLLL about the song and NOWT else!

Sheesh!

You wanna know what really hacks me off?

When I sit in The Ham Marquee at Sidmouth, listening to BRILLIANT music, and I look at the audience. What do I see? I see, for the most part, a sea of grey headed, serious faces, no-one is moving with the music, everyone is sitting stock still, seemingly listening out for either the 'purity' of the music, or listening for any mistake that they can dissect in the pub later and take pleasure in 'bashing the artist' particularly if he or she is not one of the Inner Circle of English Folk Music.

What I don't see is YOUNGSTERS, moving and grooving to the music.

I don't see, when I've been into The Radway, a whole host of musicians whooping it up, joy on their faces, audiences of all ages clapping to the beat of the music, unable to keep their bodies still. I don't see people dancing...or 'letting go' as they would, say in Ireland or Scotland...I just see 'seriousness' from the older academic-types who've taken over this music and surrounded it with pedantry, sniffing snobbishly at those who don't know exactly where each song/tune came from, or what colour underwear Cecil Sharp was wearing when he knocked on the door of Daisy Lillibottom's cottage, on the third Wednesday in June, after she'd helped to gather in the harvest.

Honestly...but comments such as those that say they no longer listen to The Chieftans because they had the nerve to sing along with 'pop' singers...

I mean????????? WHAT is that all about? I don't understand the thinking about that, apart from some kind of terrible snobbery and this whole darn thing about The Holy Altar of English Traditional Music, which is the *only* kind of music worth listening to.

Well, in a few more decades, the grey headed serious ones ain't gonna be around...and then who'll be the audience?

Will it be the young people, brought in by Seth Lakeman, Kate Rusby and Ronan Keating, who've been so criticised by the Traditional world. Will it be those who loved The Chieftans and the 'pop' stars, only finding that they actually loved The Chieftans music because they listened to it for other reasons to start with?

The Chieftans have it right. Eliza Carthy has it right, not for her 'traddie' reputation, but because Eliza is happy to sing with anyone, spread the music out, bring it all in, mix it all up.

Enya's music is damned beautiful at times. Not only that, but the spiritual feeling of it, often brings comfort to worried or troubled minds. Yet she's constantly ridiculed by those within the English folk world, as are many others.   Why????

Is it because they're successful?

Maybe, just maybe some 'out there' need to take a good long look at themselves and think what they are actually doing, because if it means more to them to keep the music 'pure' and to keep it to themselves, despising others who love it in the 'wrong' way, for the 'wrong' reasons, then one day, their small world of music will be gone forever.

Don't exclude.

Include.

And that goes for most things in life, not just music.

Now I'll leave some in here to carry on sniping about highly successful artists whose music is loved by hundreds of thousands, so that they can all say how their world is being ignored, whilst completely missing the point that it is because they want it kept as 'their world' that it is so overlooked, or avoided like the plague, in the first place.

I'm off to listen to the fabulous Loreena McKennitt now, who probably 'sings songs in the wrong accent' in a 'wishy washy voice' but who could, I've no doubt, run rings around most of the people in this thread, with her knowledge of traditional music from around the world, including English and Celtic, and could fill ANY concert hall around the world, as can The Corrs, Enya and a whole host of other Celtic artists.

Loreena McKennitt - Myspace

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 08:45 AM

I came across a tape entitled Celtic Mist in a German petrol station and a gaggle of teenagers sniggering. And they hadn't even heard it but I'm quite certain it was an accurate description of the content. (Look up what "Mist" means in German . . . )

I saw the Corrs once on television (by accident, obviously). One of them (not the bloke) was being very insistent that they "don't do folk music", just in case anyone was failing to equate them with Girls Aloud or anything of that ilk.

If anyone considers this to be "elitist", if elitism = excellence, then long live elitism. Whooping, out-of-time clapping and diddly GEFF tripe isn't the style of the Radway.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Surreysinger
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 08:46 AM

Jack .... what did any of us do to deserve that one??? Who IS it?? Which institution did he escape from?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 08:55 AM

No, there are many, many artists who + excellent, but who have scorn poured upon them by those within the 'traditional' sector of the English folk world.

"Whooping, out-of-time clapping and diddly GEFF tripe isn't the style of the Radway."

And again, there is the condescending attitude which keeps your music so locked away.

It's no longer a music I am a part of anymore. I've left it's narrow shores for an ocean of beautiful music, that has no barriers, no 'intelligensia' who guard it, just people who have incredible skill and talent and who say....

"Come in, for ALL are welcome here."

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 08:57 AM

Oops..many artists who = excellent.. :0)

(too many mistakes in that other post of mine above, didn't check it hey ho...I think I was too busy clapping out of time) ;0)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Gedi
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 08:57 AM

Oh dear, I get the sinking feeling that this thread is about to degenerate into yet another 'what is and what is not folk music'.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:01 AM

OMIGOD! Lizzie.
For your information, quite a few of the artists that you champion so voraciously often pop into the Radway when they can!
People don't dance because there is normally no room!
Occasionally someone might ask the name of a tune, or it's origins. (No point asking me, I normally haven't got a clue!).
If you want to spend an arm and a leg sitting in the Ham, so be it. I prefer the Radway for free. Music for me is about participation. Maybe you should take up an instrument?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:15 AM

Mr Campin.
You are a very sick man.
Did he get his singing lessons from a certain Mr Franks of this parish?
Nonetheless it has made it's way into my file of ephemeral tunes.(I keep them on a seperate hard drive in the bottom of a dark chest.)
Very funny. Bet Lizzie doesn't get the joke.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:17 AM

Enya's music is damned beautiful at times. Not only that, but the spiritual feeling of it, often brings comfort to worried or troubled minds. Yet she's constantly ridiculed by those within the English folk world, as are many others.   Why????

You don't seem to get the point of some of the answers, Lizzie. Speaking for myself - not for anyone else, just myself - I don't care for that kind of music for a number of reasons. I don't care for the sentiment; I don't care for the style, which I find mushy and sententious; and I don't for the twee-Celtic dress in which it's clothed. There's no question of ridiculing her - she's welcome to flourish in her own field and good luck to her - but I personally don't find her music beautiful or spiritual; and if I was worried or troubled, I certainly wouldn't find solace in her music. Other things move me more - and I'm happy to provide some personal examples.

The main point of this thread was the "dreadful" nature of some of the faux-Celtic'y/folk-y stuff out there. Now, dreadful is a subjective word and beauty is in the eye, etc., but we as individuals have to make judgments and be subjective - otherwise how could we compare anything with anything? And we have to have some personal standards, otherwise we'd like everything and nothing. To say that I don't like Enya is simply to say that I don't like Enya or, as it happens, anything else in that line. But - and please note this - just because I don't happen to care for that stuff doesn't mean that I'm a hard-hearted old curmudgeon who goes "bah! humbug!" at the world, or that I'm lacking in any spirituality. I just get my enlightenment elsewhere, and I find beauty in many other musical and artistic forms.

Just because we're not white doesn't mean we're black - the world is more subtle than that.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:29 AM

Ralphie - you are on!!! My Hackney Martians cassette tape is starting to sound even weirder.

PM me a postal address and I'll get a copy to you!

LTS

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:45 AM

Lizzie C
In amongst all these Po faced Grey haired old men who frequent the Radway that you have dismissed with such inpunity, I presume you are including your good friend Barry Lister? And half of the Old Swan Band? Mr wood and Mr Cutting have been known to drop in occasionally.
Wouldn't be surprised if Eliza hasn't been in too.

And if your'e looking for spiritual enlightenment try Morton Lauredsons arrangement of "O Magnum Mysterium"
Would like to see the Coors trying that one!

LTS. Not a member here so no PM. Will find another way. Am on Facebook. Any use?
Regards Ralphie x

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:10 AM

Oh Lizzie, if it's spiritual enlightenment you're after, why not try Napalm Death, Extreme Noise Terror, and Melt Banana. All fairly whimsical in an idiosyncratic way.
(Gentle musing here. The Chieftains locking horns with Half Man Half Biscuit. I'd pay good money to see that!)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:24 AM

"I'd pay good money to see that!"

You're not alone.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Fidjit
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:25 AM

Well done Lizzie C
Those Loreena tracks went straight into the box set with all the other Parodies on here.

Now we'll have people saying that Good King Weceslas is an Irish song. Not to mention The Holly and The Ivy.

Her voice did make me think of Maddy Prior though.

Chas

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:30 AM

I listened to an entire Enya CD for the first time not long ago (somebody here had suggested her version of "I Dreamt I Dwelt in Marble Halls" - I can't imagine why).

The one thing it did have going for it was her percussionist, who did some imaginative things with timpani, not a common sound in folk arrangements. It still went to a charity shop the next day.

Which brings me to another category of OMGTD recordings - those where the lead singer or instrument is fine but the backing makes your toes curl all the way up to your ankles. Most recordings of Arabic music with electric organ backing do that for me. So do all the records I've ever heard of Jewish cantorial music (refined modal singing with an organ accompaniment that sounds like a crematorium scene from a zombie film). And all Michael Coleman's recordings (they sound like the piano player was recruited by going into the nearest bar, shouting "Anyone here wanna bash the ivories?" and signing up anybody offering who was too drunk to insist on getting paid).

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Muckart
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:33 AM

Please, Mr Campin, tell us who gave that unforgettable rendition of "Holy Night", and when? It puts me in mind of "Toothache" and a certain Punk Rock version of "My Way". Has he recorded any more? And what's the recording company?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 11:04 AM

It seems to have been found under a gooseberry bush. The site I linked to doesn't say who, when or where. I first heard it via Molly Mockford, sysadmin for Dick Gaughan's site, and she said she was sent it by a friend working at the Library of Congress. Maybe it was lurking somewhere in the American Memory collection?

One suggestion I've seen was that it was sent in as a try-out for a talent show.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 11:09 AM

"One suggestion I've seen was that it was sent in as a try-out for a talent show."

Mmmm, do you think he needs to be a little more emotionally expressive? 'Tell the story' more - really 'feel it' and 'communicate it', from the inside.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 11:15 AM

The site I linked to doesn't say who, when or where.

Oh yes it does. Go to the main page and click on 'O Holy Night saga', about halfway down the Categories column, and all will be revealed.

(Short answer: yes, it's a joke, although the backing is professional & was recorded for a different vocalist.)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 11:56 AM

Yes Ralphie, look for Liz the Squeak and there I am... I should be the only LTS there, there are dozens of you!

LTS

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Surreysinger
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM

Well I looked for you Liz, but when you type Liz the Squeak into the search field, all that comes up is a fan group for Squeak the Hamster ... that isn't you by any chance is it?? However, as far as I am aware there's only one Ralphie Jordan on there (although plenty of Ralph Jordans without friends!!!)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Jos
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 02:24 PM

Ralphie, if you can't find LtS I have an address for you in my address book from many years ago - if you haven't moved since I bought a Penny Hop/The Hop tape from you I could email her the address.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Jos
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 02:25 PM

Ooops - I mean I could PM it.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ernest
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 02:28 PM

here`s the dreadful 100th post now...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:09 PM

"Lizzie C
In amongst all these Po faced Grey haired old men who frequent the Radway that you have dismissed with such inpunity, I presume you are including your good friend Barry Lister? And half of the Old Swan Band? Mr wood and Mr Cutting have been known to drop in occasionally.
Wouldn't be surprised if Eliza hasn't been in too."


First of all, Barry's not 'po faced'. Secondly, he doesn't have 'grey' hair, but sparkly white, and thirdly, I'm well aware that Barry goes into The Radway, as I was right beside him when he got his tuba out. (giggling somewhat naughtily smiley)

It still doesn't rule out the fact that it's a 'watching' occupation, being an (older) English folkie, rather than a 'letting yourself go' one.

If you recall, Ralph, we had this discussion on the BBC one time, about how the English don't seem able to let themselves go in the same way as the Irish or Scots. Even in Folk Britannia it was there, the Scots throwing themselves around to their music, petticoats and kilts flung high in the air (oo-er Missus!) However, meanwhile, back at the ranch, the English were filmed sat down listening to Pete Seeger, who was on stage singing his heart out, smiling from ear to ear, and looking across a sea of serious faces who looked more as if they were at a science convention, rather than watching one of the most popular folk singers of the time. Not a smile or a tapping foot to be seen anywhere.

and...Barry has an earring. He's a cool dude! ;0)

You can have 'grey' hair if you like, but 'silver' is soooo much more funky...Why be 'grey' when you can be silver? And white is even more cool! I bet the Irish and the Scots have far more silver hair than the English, because they don't worry about smiling and letting themselves go, having the occasional Whoop! now and then and daring to tap their feet..

And nope, I don't need any spiritual enlightenment, thanks. I have more than enough.

Enya, Will.

Fair enough. I've always appreciated that everyone loves different sorts of music. It gets to me though when talented and popular artists are ridiculed by those who assume they know all about what is good music and what is not. And sadly, there seem to be a lot of those 'experts' in the Eng. Trad. world.


And now, I'm off, once again, to listen to Loreena McKennitt, and you may want to check out her Hurdy Gurdy player...and her cellist.

Loreena - The Mummer's Dance - Youtube

Loreena - Caravanserai

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:59 PM

Lizzie.
I just give up.
You don't want to listen to "O Magnum Mysterium". Fine.
Your loss.
Loreena McKennit. Been there done that.
Nice performance. Doesn't move me. Horses for courses.
So, I take it you won't be popping into the Rad in Feb then, because it's full of OLD PEOPLE!!....Remember one day you will be old too!
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:37 PM

I had a look at the McKennit vids.
The gurdy "player" appeared to be grinding coffee manually and the cellist was far too over-keen on vibrato.
I direct you to:
(a) Jon Loomes
(b) Anahata.
Neither of them go in for New Age Mist (in the German sense), and the women singers they accompany don't look or sound like Barbie dolls.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:12 PM

Just thought I would do this just for fun.................

Here is a list I have put together.....the number by the names is their top video views from You Tube....... Interesting that all the folk names listed added together only comes to a third of the "common" folk artists Enya Clannad and Celtic Woman........... what does this mean......am I in a tiny tiny little click sniggering in the corner at the common people or am I championing the common persons music and if I am why are they not listening to US!

ralph mctell                   217,518
cara dillon                       216,760
fairport convention               198,649
kate rusby                       177,796
Richard Thompson                175,447
Dougie Maclean                  149,026
Seth Lakeman                       136,660
show of hands                       129,824
Eric Bogle                        106,996
lunasa                                47,808
dick gaughan                        45,476
flook                                35,322
bellowhead                            35,163
vin garbutt                        24,675
eliza carthy                        18,887
Oysterband                        18,187
Martin Carthy                         16,138
john tams and barry coope        12,245
steve tilston                        6,661
Jez Lowe                         5,040
last nights fun                        4,401
cloudstreet                        3,673
tanglefoot                        3,616
ruth notman                        2,966
nancy kerr and james fagin          2,794
ColvinQuarmby                        2,429
Kerfuffle                        2,041
Jim Moray                         1,827
Megson                                 1,451
Wheeler Street                        1,440
Mawkin Causley                           926
David Ferrard                           391
George Papavgeris                      262
Maggie Holland                           141
        
              total          1,802,233
        
        
celtic woman                        2,253,076
enya                             4,386,496
clannad                              213,920

              total          6,853,492

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:30 PM

There's a whole thread on the horrors of Rogues' gallery.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:55 PM

GUEST,No Fixed Abode - you haven't put how long these YouTube "top videos" have been up on YouTube. You can't compare 100 viewings in 2 days with 100,000 viewings in 2 years - for example.

I don't doubt that the figures represent popular taste, but the length of time these videos have been posted makes a diference.

Popularity is an indicator of popularity. One of the most popular videos on YouTube is an ape drinking it's own pee - popular, but not exactly tasteful.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:59 PM

"..Remember one day you will be old too!"

Hey, I'm already there, Ralph, I'm the same age as you! :0)

But I put glitter on my wrinkles and highlights in my hair...and I laugh at the way my chest is so in love with my waist, and the way my waist has gone off in search of my knees..Yikes!! :0) LOL

And soon, I'll be even older in years, but even younger in mind, with more glitter on my ever-increasing wrinkles...and throughout it all I'll tap my feet, clap my hands, whoop and occasionally, on a good day, still throw myself around my bedroom to The Oysterband or Eliza singing (fabulously) 'Ten Thousand Miles' on The Big Session Vol 1...

I may also listen to Clannad or Enya, or Loreena, or Bruce Murdoch, or Ron Bankley or Noah Zacharin, or The Corrs or Barry Lister, or Tom Bliss, or Duncan McFarlane, with or without his band, depending on how energetic I'm feeling at the time.

I tell you what, Ralph, you wanna see another way of seeing English Traditional music? Then pop oop to Otley in Yorkshire when Duncan and his band are playing and you'll see a folk club packed out, with folk jumping up and down, singing along, cheering, clapping, smiling, laughing...and that's just the band!   :0)   

No, seriously though, when I saw them at Otley Folk Festival they were...*sensational* There wasn't room to breathe, and everyone (of all ages) was dancing wildly. Duncan had that audience in the palm of his hand, and his joy and exuberance spilled out to everyone there. He takes English Traditional music to a whole new level. And at Sidmouth Folk Week, the first one we had, for me, they outshone the main act in every way. Absolutely superb!

The Duncan McFarlane Band

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:01 PM

Oh - should have mentioned that my top-viewed video on YT has had 117,220 views in 13 months which, in theory, puts me (a nobody) well above 26 of the people in your list and below 8 of them. Does this make me better than Martin Carthy (16,138)? Not bloody likely! Mine's a very simple guitar blues instructional video which has probably been watched 100 times each by 100 people.

Lies, damned lies and statistics...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:11 PM

And, after listening to Duncan singing 'Lord Franklin' that reminds me, I think it was Benjamin Franklin who said:

"Most people die at 25 and aren't buried until they're 75"

And some of those people live inside the world of English traditional music. They have held it back for years, and it needs to burst forth with new life, new energy, no rules or regulations and no more condescending comments about other artists.

It just might help those Youtube figures start to rocket upwards!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:37 PM

Ok Will I did say a bit of fun but........

Ruth Notman                  6 months
David Ferrard                7 months
Jim Moray                   8 months
Wheeler Street               8 months
Mawkin Causley               9 months
Ralph Mctell                9 months
Nancy Kerr and James Fagin 11 months

All the rest are over a year old......

One of the most popular videos on YouTube is an ape drinking it's own pee - popular, but not exactly tasteful.

Nice try Will but I think most people reading this will understand the basic principle………folk music is but a drop in the big wide world of music…..have a look like I did at the weekend at the folk section in HMV or Fob Selectadisc……. There is more space given to healing music than folk music

Glad you had so many hits…………..just proves my point…Blues is more popular than folk!!! ..

Have a nice day
Tony

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:44 PM

I couldn't find Ralphie Jordan on Facebook, try looking for me under my nom de plum of Draper.

LTS

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 06:56 PM

I know I'll regret asking this, but . . .

. . . this thread is about the horrors of new-agey, wifty-wafty, plastic-packaged, celticky garbage.
So you pile in more to add to the heap.

What is it, exactly, that you are accusing the "English traditional world" of "holding back"? You are not, surely, seriously suggesting that our English heritage of song, dance and tunes be dumped in favour of that tripe? Are you? You are, aren't you?

[btw Lord Franklin is a tale of ill-advised, imperialistic adventurism set to an Irish melody].

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:27 PM

Loreena talking about her music and her journey to Celtic music. (on Youtube):

Loreena McKennitt - 'No Journey's End' -

I'm saying that English traditional music is only *part* of the heritage of the world music. It is no better than others, it is merely a part, and the condescending tripe that some from the English traditional world go round putting down on messageboards turns more people OFF the music, than turn them on. That's all.

For instance, to trash the music of Loreena McKennitt, an intelligent, passionate, internationally respected and deeply private woman, whose music is incredibly important to her, makes no sense to me, because it simply shows how closed your mind is.


Two of Loreena's band, her hurdy gurdy player and cellist:

Nigel Eaton

Caroline Lavelle

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:07 AM

Lizzie, I haven't noticed anyone "trashing" Loreena Mckennitt's music. All they've said is that they don't like it, which is quite different.

I listened to one of the links you gave, the mummers song. It struck me as well-performed but I found it uninteresting. Like much modern commercial music, it makes a nice sound but places no demands on the listener. She has a pleasant voice but one without much individual character, and the words were largely inaudible (although I concede that YouTube isn't the ideal listening environment) so I have no idea what she was actually singing about. The instrumental lineup offered scope for something really interesting which never materialised. And was she really playing that accordion? Her fingers didn't seem to move.

There's nothing wrong with liking this stuff, or Enya or Clannad, or any other modern commercial music for that matter. Personally, I find it bland and uninteresting, but I can't deny that it's commercially successful. I don't think it has anything to do with "Celtic" music, but that's a branding issue, or with folk music and I don't really think it has a place on this forum. But that's not to say it isn't good music or that I'm somehow morally superior for preferring something with a bit more substance.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:26 AM

Yes, quite, Bland and uninteresting.

I don't think she was actually playing that accordian (too engrossed in spinning round in circles), just as Nigel Eaton was doing an imitation of grinding coffee. He was dead good in Blowzabella too, but there he had interesting parts to play.

Dreadful is perhaps too impassioned a word to use about McKennit-Enya-like tosh. The whole point is that it is NOT a "branch" of world music, but commercialised, sugar-coated, very poor but pretentious and rootless pop.

I'm mildly surprised that you acknowledge that English traditional music is part of the "world heritage". I recommend a visit to Charlie Gillett's SOTW to repeat that . . .

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:34 AM

Er...I think you'll find that Loreena plays many, many instruments Howard.

This isn't about Loreena though, it's about condescending attitudes, for me at least.

"Like much modern commercial music, it makes a nice sound but places no demands on the listener."

Hang on a tick, I've heard much traditional music from the English folk world that makes me want to slit my wrists! Some of it is dirge like, depressing and downright boring.

There are brilliant songs in all genres, and there are bloopers too.
I've sat through many a folk/trad performance where I've wanted to run away. Equally, I've sat through others that have had me sitting on the edge of my chair with the sheer beauty of it all. But many of the artists who are being ridiculed in here could also have me sitting on the edge of my chair with the beauty of their music.

Someone wrote to me last night and said that I needed to open my eyes, to learn.   

Well, pardon me, but I have both my eyes and my ears open, and I love music from all genres, not just one. I don't think that English Traditional is better than Irish, Scottish or American. It's all one and the same, a music that comes from the people themselves and is loved by many of the people.

In England, it is loved by far fewer though, and maybe it's time to start looking into why that is.

Maybe all these ideas about 'putting demands on the listener' have had the opposite effect, and most listeners have thought "Blimey, I got the message at Verse 15, will someone please tell him to stop!"

Music is to be loved and enjoyed, surely, not *just* studied. And *that* is what I see so often in the English folk world, the 'study' of the music rather than the sheer passion.

AND....you're not 'permitted' to swoon over it, or the performers, because if you do, then you'll be hanged, drawn and quartered and your head placed on a pole outside The Tower, but that's mild compared to what would happen if you DARE to have a sense of humour about it...you truly don't want to know what would happen there...

:0)

We have a 'Celtic Music' CD in The National Trust. Our customers love it, and so do I. Sooooo calming, and before I know where I am, I'm drifting away with Rob Roy up in the heather, whilst trying to concentrate on the price of English Honey and things that go bump in the night..

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Tangledwood
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:49 AM

"Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!"

A few days ago I watched a live performance by a Canadian group who took a number of folk standards and gave them a high tempo rock treatment, similar to the Pogues "Transmetropolitan" sound. OK, they were technically quite good and some may enjoy the style but when they applied it to Eric Bogle's anthem "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda" it was obvious they had no idea what the song was about.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:50 AM

"Dreadful is perhaps too impassioned a word to use about McKennit-Enya-like tosh.


And there we have it, once more..the condescension that keeps English Traditional music behind its locked doors.


"The whole point is that it is NOT a "branch" of world music, but commercialised, sugar-coated, very poor but pretentious and rootless pop."

The whole point is that it has roots from many different cultures, all intermingled. And the reason it appeals to so many people is that we're all becoming like the music, branches from many roots, all entwined around one another, all beginning to see that we share the same root.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:59 AM

My view of anything labelled "Celtic", especially in a heritage tat shop, isn't condescending but highly suspicious.
The peddling of substandard, bland pop masquerading as traditional music is part of the reason why the population at large remains unaware of what our cultural heritage actually is.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Colin Randall
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 05:05 AM

My belated reply to Will Fry is that if my boyhood recording of Runaway still existed, it would probably have to be banned. To say that I couldn't quite get Del Shannon's falsetto would merely obscure my failure to get any other part of the song right, except maybe the words.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 05:21 AM

Lizzie, I'm definitely not saying that Loreena is "dreadful" - unfortunately, as usual this thread has drifted, but if I'm not mistaken it was you who brought her into the discussion.

It's good music of its kind, and if you enjoy it and it creates a mood for you, good luck to you. The only mood it created for me was one of boredom, but that's my personal taste, not a value judgement.

However I don't see how so-called "Celtic" music of this kind has anything to do with folk music. It's commercial pop music, and while I have no problem with its popular success I question whether it has any place on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:04 AM

Rather repeating myself from another thread here...

As a newby with no depth of knowledge about 'folk music' in general or indeed native Traditional arts in particular. It was as I've said elsewhere, the virtually accidental discovery of unaccompanied traditional English song that became my backwards way in to discovering more about the world of 'folk music' more generally.

I was put off of folk music a long time ago, and while no music buff I've always enjoyed stimulating and interesting music. Whether that be Miles Davis, Messiaen Chemical Brothers, Dr. John, Frank Zappa , N.W.A, Bartok or Morrissey amongst lots of others. I was going to make a list of examples of music I don't enjoy, to sort of highlight from my own perspective the point that some others here are tring to get accross, but I can't be arsed and it might even offend someone.

But Morrissey what a fabulous lyricist "Why do you come here? And why do you hang around?" Thanks for inspiring me do that little list, listening to some of those clips has reminded me why I love music, and thus why I am coming and hanging around here. For my own part, I'm genuinely hoping to learn something from all the miserable, boring old, grey-bearded fuckers who are also hanging around here... ;-)

As for glitter and dancing Lizzie, if we meet - you're on! I can still get sparkled up (just check out that chicks excellent sparkley rainbow dress in Dr. Johns backing line-up! I WANT!), and go twelve hours - with some good company, and I'm in my mid thirties so not exactly a kid anymore.

As said before, if my only exposure to 'folk' was the material that gets mass marketed as 'Celtic', and indeed some of the popular material that you are promoting, I would leave it well alone. As indeed I already have for many years... But I must support Diane Easby and others here who feel protective of their tradtitional arts. Massively succesfull popular artists as you have cited, do not need advocates for their work, they already have millions of fans. I stumbeled on traditional English song, by *accident* after researching Irish Sean Nos. To me that says something important. And it is why I believe, some of the members here fight to maintain the integrity of the arts they are advocates for.

Like I said before, I really wouldn't sweat it on behalf of artists like the Corrs, Enya, Celtic Woman et al, because they sure as hell won't be!

Nothing personal here, just some observations from a newby to folk music and to traditional song. But I feel I would like to respond, as I intitiated this thread in the first place. And it was a good laugh for a while too.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:13 AM

"It's commercial pop music."

Really?

And there was me listening to Loreena, watching her take the influences of Arab music, Spanish music, Irish, Scots and English music, and meld them altogether to create her own music.

Right, I'll write it out a hundred times then:

"Loreena McKennitt's music of beauty is nowt but commercial pop music."

Then, I shall spin round 10 times singing it...and still I won't believe a single word of what you tell me.

That is your belief, and you are entitled to it, just as you are entitled to like or dislike any music you hear, same with me.

Commercial Pop Music? - Pah! - 'Dante's Prayer'


And Diane, whilst I fully appreciate the National Trust wind up going on there, I think you should maybe know that the 'tat' that you talk of which is sold in their shops, raises millions of pounds for The National Trust in general.

They care for the land you talk of loving so much, the people you love, the heritage you love...

"28 castles, 215 houses and gardens, 150 museums, 127 factories and mines, 57 villages, 47 dovecotes, 25 medieval barns, 78 mills, 19 pubs, 12 lighthouses, 31 nature reserves, 704 miles of coastline and 600,000 acres of countryside....for ever, for everyone."

Maybe you should think on that, before you trash them again.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:23 AM

Rosie, I was banned for constantly jabbering on about English folk music, traditional and non-traditional, on the BBC board, as well as fighting back against the Traddies and their constant put downs of excellent artists in the folk world, who they don't like.

I LOVED this music. I also stumbled into it by accident...

I have since, stumbled out, because of the derrogatory comments and the holier than thou attitude about this music, above all others.

I don't believe in slagging artists off. Yes, they are hugely popular, and so they should be, because they're excellent musicians.
I fought for a very long time to get the names of many other musicians out there too from the English folk world and beyond, but some folks in here took it upon themselves to end all that.

Ask Ralph Jordan, heck, I sold quite a few of his CDs via my enthusiasm on the BBC board.

This is a long and terminally boring feud.

For me though, what is so sad is that I feel English traditional music will always remain a minority music because of the way it has been taken over by the pseudo intellectuals.

Any music that appeals to the masses is so often derided on here, because success is looked down upon.

Yet think on this, the very music that they now keep locked up, and look at with cotton gloves on, whilst worshipping at its altar, was once the very music of the masses themselves.

I tried to give it back to many, but you know what, they don't want it given back, because they deem it 'theirs' rather than 'ours'.

So be it.

It's a good thread, and has raised many interesting points, by the way.

(And check out The Body Shop's new 'roll on glitter eye shadow', it's the best I've seen in ages...also Barry M (Superdrug stores) :0)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:28 AM

Ah, Dante.
This is taking Divine Comedy and Inferno a tad too literally, wherein lies madness.
You've already been directed to O Magnum Mysterium.
Go.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:41 AM

Great music from The Chieftans and Emmylou Harris - (Probably sung in the wrong accent, according to some) ;0)



And hey, did you notice?

Emmylou has *silver* hair!

Didn't I tell you, to be sure. :0)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:44 AM

O Magnum Mysterium


Lovely.

But pray tell me, why is *that* acceptable, yet Loreena isn't? I hear very similar things, the same beauty.

?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Amergin
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:46 AM

There was an awful republican band called Athenrye....I made the mistake of picking up a cd of theirs....the guy who sings is slightly off ey...but that's ok....though the emphasis he puts on the words makes me want to shove a boot down his throat....the pinnacle of the album though is when they play One Sunday Morning....and at the start of the song they are playing a whistle....and it is so terrible....no tune is recognisable....just a shrill piercing noise rupturing my ear drums....reminds me of a girl i dated once...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:49 AM

I don't believe in slagging artists off

You did a fairly comprehensive job of trying to slag off PJD after you'd laid hands on one of the last copies of Flat Earth left on this flat earth and despatched it to a charity shop after a mindless spat with one of its members.
No, you didn't "help sell it". It was already all but sold out before you'd even heard of it.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:58 AM

Yup, that's right...and I tracked down a few copies..and they then went too after I'd spoken about that CD, but...let's not get in to it all over again, eh.

It's your music, you keep it in it's box and then it will always remain the same. No matter that they are simply songs sung by ordinary people from way back. To you, they are almost holy.

So keep them in your holy book, with its religious rules and boundaries. I'm out here listening and enjoying music that has no boundaries and that belongs to a world where all are welcome.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:13 AM

"Yet think on this, the very music that they now keep locked up, and look at with cotton gloves on, whilst worshipping at its altar, was once the very music of the masses themselves. I tried to give it back to many, but you know what, they don't want it given back, because they deem it 'theirs' rather than 'ours'."

Well, I can't answer for your personal experiences obviously, but from my own part, I have had a completely different experience from Traddies.

I leapfrogged to Mudcat from a very serious forum on Trad Song (to which I'd been referred by the charming Johnny Adams who also runs the English Song and Dance forum.) The reception to my own queries on those forums (which are much more serious and 'academic' than Mudcat ever is), was wonderfully embracing, informative, encouraging and supportive.

I realised that those forums were too serious and academic for my very newby interest, bad sense of humour and somewhat irreverent manner (I posted as RosaSomniferum there, and again my thanks to those good people who gave me lots of helpful advice). So here I am, in the Cat. Which is rather more suited to my personality and current needs.

My continued curiosity here, has however similarly been answered with nothing but support and encouragement. And although it's a bit more of a schoolyard here, if I ask, I get answers! Ta da! All good. If no-one in the traddie world wanted other people to discover traditional arts, surely I would not have had such supportive responses to my initial forays into heavy-duty traddie forum land. My questions would have been either completely ignored or contemptuously swatted away. But the opposite happened. The people were so friendly, that I quite simply cannot relate to your experiences.

All human intercourse is fraught with misunderstandings, and no-where moreso than on the internet...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:20 AM

"All human intercourse is fraught with misunderstandings, and no-where moreso than on the internet..."

Yup. :0)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:21 AM

Rosie, you make what seem to be genuine, interested inquiries. You listen to the responses and react with even more interest. People like that and are glad to help and share what they know. It's so unlike someone who wants only to force whatever it is they've just heard down the gullets of all and sundry and is plainly uninterested in anything other than the sound of their own screeching voice. Oh, and Johnny Adams is an excellent mentor. He's been round lots of blocks.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:27 AM

Rosie's a cool gal! She makes me laugh...and she's a real thinker too.

(Rosie, a tip...never, but *****never***** mention the words 'Show of Hands' or 'Seth Lakeman' in an enthooooosiastic manner, or say they've done more to bring in thousands to folk music, and you should be *just* dandy! - Don't tell 'em I told you though, OK?) LOL

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:30 AM

I couldn't imagine stopping enjoying a sort of music because of falling out with someone else who liked that sort of music or because I didn't fancy the look of the audience. Strange stuff.

I was at a mainly but not exclusively traditional folk singaround last night. Lots of traditional English songs, a few Scottish and Irish ones and even a few that weren't traditional (including a lovely rendition of 'The January Man'). Plenty of grey heads, silver heads, bald heads, but not exclusively so. Lots of people having fun, lots of smiles and laughter. A few truly spine-tingling moments too, like Sue's 'Blackwaterside'. People in the adjoining bar stopped talking to have a listen.

Point is, I really don't recognise this assassination of English traditional music as a grim, stiff, boring and soulless place that's being conjured up here by Lizzie. Some of the other posters may be poking fun at the odd bit of commercially successful light entertainment-style folk (not my cup of tea, either. My thumbs are up instead to most of Sleepy Rosie's list, though I'd drop Zappa and add Beefheart), but no-one else is dismissing an entire music and seemingly on the spurious basis that over the years they've had a few internet feuds. Your choice, though. And your loss.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:39 AM

It's not the music, SC, it's those who 'surround' it.

Anyways up, I'm off to dig out my Magna Carta LP now and take myself back a few years...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 07:52 AM

To attempt to get this one back on track before the usual suspect gets it closed down.
Back around 1988 when I got my first CD player, while browsing a reputable record shop I came across a CD called "First Time I Met The Blues" by Eric Clapton. Intrigued since I didn't know that Clapton played the classic title track I paid the £3 asking price and took it home. The result was a dissapointing, random collection of outtakes from his Yardbird days and very little connection with the blues. However about two thirds into the album seemingly Clapton left the building to be replaced by some early, live recordings of The Graham Bond Trio (Bond, Jack Bruce, Ginger Baker - no Dick Heckstall -Smith or John McLaughlin) playing some blistering stuff and Jack singing "First Time".
That bit was so good that someone that I must have loaned it to decided to keep it; however my daughter was able to replace it for me the following Christmas by obtaining a copy from the local petrol station.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Fidjit
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:03 AM

But pray tell me, why is *that* acceptable, yet Loreena isn't? I hear very similar things, the same beauty.
?

Lizzy . . . .
Listen again to The Scarborough Fair version of The Holy and The Ivy on her Myspace that you put up and you might, MIGHT just see the where the difference. And the commercialism comes in.

Chas

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Terminally bored
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:06 AM

IS it me or is this getting a bit of a personal tirade.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:16 AM

"Lizzy . . . .
Listen again to The Scarborough Fair version of The Holy and The Ivy on her Myspace that you put up and you might, MIGHT just see the where the difference. And the commercialism comes in."

Sorry, but what is this *comercialism* of which Ye speak?

I hear a beautifully performed version of a Christmas Carol.

You have to spell it out for me, as I've been told I'm 'intellectually bereft', so I don't always get what you're meaning, I'm afraid.

I did better than listen on the Myspace page though, I bought that CD for my daughter's birthday, just before Christmas! :0)

She loves it!

Not only that, but she played it in the gift shop where she works, down in town, and almost every customer who came in wanted to buy it, thinking it was for sale.

She ended up writing out the name, title and website details, over and over again. One man got terribly upset, because he was desperate to buy it for his wife, and wasn't able to get into Exeter, although to be honest, I doubt he'd have found her music even there.   

Not one person who heard the music had ever heard of Loreena before, but they instantly connected with it, instantly fell in love with it.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:18 AM

Lizzie, please read what I actually said. I'm not saying that Loreena's music is bad, or not beautiful, and I don't doubt she is a sincere and talented performer. All I have said is that I don't like it much, and given my reasons.

Whatever her influences, the end result seems to me to fit squarely into the post-Clannad "Celtic" genre, which is entirely a marketing concept of the music industry. I have no objection to it being commercially successful and neither do I look down on the musicians who play it. I don't particularly like the term, because this style of music has little connection with real Celtic music, and likewise I don't think it has much to do with folk music. But being commercial pop doesn't mean it can't be beautiful, and that's not what I'm saying.

That's my last word on this, because I don't think this is an appropriate thread to be discussing the merits of Loreena's music - I certainly don't think it's "dreadful" and neither is it the sort of thing the OP was referring to. Her music simply doesn't do anything for me - perhaps that's a failing on my part, but you can't please all the people...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:18 AM

Hey, you know what, *sometimes* you guys **can** be wrong.

Has that ever occurred to any of you?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Gedi
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:27 AM

"Nothing personal here, just some observations from a newby to folk music and to traditional song. But I feel I would like to respond, as I intitiated this thread in the first place. And it was a good laugh for a while too."

I couldn't agree more, it was a good laugh until the thread got hijacked and turned into a place of admonishment, strangely by someone who says that there's no fun in Folkies!

Like Spleen Cringe above, I too was at that folk club singaround and a great time was had by all. There were serious songs, sad songs, but also funny songs, joyous songs and riotous songs. Folk - whats not to like!

Ged

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:41 AM

A few truly spine-tingling moments too, like Sue's 'Blackwaterside'. People in the adjoining bar stopped talking to have a listen.

Eventually!

(My own contribution had a full complement of noises off, which can be a bit irksome when you're halfway through a Child ballad. But Sue's Blackwaterside was a bit good, it has to be said - like Anne Briggs's recording, only better.)

Rosie - back in my unreformed pre-trad days I did an unaccompanied version of Suedehead. "Why do you telephone?" Wonderful.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:51 AM

"Lizzie, please read what I actually said. I'm not saying that Loreena's music is bad, or not beautiful, and I don't doubt she is a sincere and talented performer. All I have said is that I don't like it much, and given my reasons."

Howard, I did, and I've acknowledged it several times over. You are perfectly at liberty to like or dislike whatever music you so choose. We are all different. I completely understand that and have no problem with it whatsoever. What I get cross about is when various artists are referred to in such derrogatory terms, (NOT by you, Howard) particularly with the emphasis seeming to be that all 'Celtic' music is crap, whereas 'ours' isn't.

There is good and bad in all genres of music.

I could give you a few English folk CDs that I've bought which weren't er...exactly to my liking, but I won't do that, because it would upset the artists concerned and that's not fair. Also, what I may not have liked about those CDs, other may love.

I don't regard her music as 'commercial pop' at all, not in any way whatsoever. For me it's a highly unusual blend of music from around the world, woven together by Loreena herself.

Her fiancee was lost in a sailing accident around 10 years back, they never found him. She closed down for several years, understandably, then sought solace in her music, going on her 'journey', as the Youtube video above talks of. She's a highly spiritual lady, a very private one, and a deeply kind one too, taking the trouble to respond to everyone who writes to her, via her staff, and answering their messages through them. I had written contact with one of her band once, years back...and they were kindness and love personified. I was stunned at how helpful they were, and how genuine too.

No way is Loreena McKennitt's music 'commercial pop' in my book, absolutely no way.   Her music is influenced by the world and by the stories within it, the stories within ourselves.

You cannot simply dismiss all 'Celtic' music as crap. Just as you can't dismiss all 'English Traditional' music as crap. To do so would be highly narrow-minded, biased, bigotted and ignorant, in my opinion. (and Howard, I am not talking about you there, so please don't get upset)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 09:19 AM

Loreena McKennitt's music is simply marvelous as far as I'm concerned.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:01 AM

Any of you boring old traddie bastards want to post YouTube reposts to Loreena here? Seeing as we've got a major thread drift going on and all. But you know what they do in Hip-Hop instead of fighting... Gauntlets have been thrown.

So as a newb I'll kick off, here's the Anne Briggs version of Blackwaterside which Pip Radish mentioned earlier.
A lady I myself only recently encountered while YouTubing.

And further to Spleen your wish is my command.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:09 AM

And yours is mine, Rosie:

The Holly and the Ivy, the Royal Hotel, Dungworth

Now THAT's folk.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:16 AM

I'll see you both...and raise you one Sandy Denny.

My page on her...

Sandy - Myspace


And from that page, you can link through to the pages on Fairport Convention, Fotheringay, Albion Band, Ashley Hutchings, Celtic Moon, Albion Dance Band, Lark Rise Band, Fairport's Cropredy, Albion Heart....and follow them through to many, many others...including Peter Bellamy's 'The Transports', Folk This Festivals, Private Harry Farr...etc..etc..

All of which either Sam or I made..most have videos on there too...

Enjoy. :0)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:17 AM

Over 20 altogether...

Hey, put that in your Traddie pipes and smoke it!


And *that* Rosie...IS folk music!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:26 AM

Well, if we're going to blow our own trumpets - here's something I made earlier:

Bushes and Briars


I'd rather listen to this than Loreena McKennitt. Only my opinion, of course.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Fidjit
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:36 AM

Ah, Thank you Ruth.

We've seen these, Cornish broadsides, if you'll excuse the pun, before, somewhere.

They usually miss the mark.

Chas

Getting coat.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:38 AM

Hmmmm..that would be quite good Seth and Benji'd up a little.

Loreena's still winning though, for me at least...

Tell you what, I'll see you an Eliza, and raise you a:

Celtic Moon


:0)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:46 AM

it was not just an Eliza - it was a Jackie, a Jim, a Jim, a Fay, a Tim, a Jon, and the Queen of Hearts was a Shirley.

Is that a royal flush?



Everyone that was there agreed that it was pretty perfect just as it was.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:46 AM

Oop - and a Lisa!

*doh*

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Noreen
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:47 AM

Ruth, that is wonderful! Can you give more info on the singers of Bushes and Briars, please? First singer in particular?

I spotted Jon Boden at the end as he stands out, literally, but can't make out anyone else. Sound quality is good though!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:48 AM

And of course, if we're still including the Celts, we'd best bring in....

The Land of My Fathers....


Not bad huh, for a man who was ridiculed by so many of you..who has made thousand upon thousand of paths for people to walk down, about traditional music, literature, films, poetry, modern music, history, geography...the list is endless. If you sat down now and started to read them all, you'd probably never finish in your life time..

Ah, to be so 'intellectually bereft' ......

There are pages on Loreena too....many of them.....

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:50 AM

"Is that a royal flush?"

you can't mention 'royalty' in English trad, they'd blow a gasket.. :0)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:56 AM

Celtic Moon?

Last night I walked past the end of the road in Hornsey where Johnny Moynihan used to live in the mid-60s. I can just hear what he's have to say about having his music described as twee Celtic.
And Fairport's Liege & Lief? Excuse me . . . ?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:59 AM

Some Christmas videos

Waterson Carthy

Did someone mention Eliza?

...or The Albion Band?


There ya go...that should keep you entertained for a little while.
I'll leave you in peace now.. :0)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:00 AM

Noreen, the song starts with Eliza Carthy. Next is Jackie Oates. Then Jim Moray. Then Jim Causley. Then Fay Heild. Then Lisa Knapp. Then Tim van Eyken. Then Jon Boden.

To give some background, this was the final song in a concert given by EFDSS entitled Bushes and Briars, which was a commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the death of Ralph Vaughan Williams. The spoken word bits were read by Shirley Collins and Tim van Eyken. The whole day of events specifically commemorated Vaughan Williams' folk song collecting. The reason this song was chosen was because it was the very first song RVW collected.

The people on the stage had not actually been in the room together before 5pm that evening. They had practiced all the other songs for the concert which were performed individually, but this finale couldn't be rehearsed until the sound check. They found a key they could all sing the song in, and practiced in the interval. The result was rather glorious, I think.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:08 AM

A more contextual use of "Celtic":
Renaissance of the Celtic Harp, Alan Stivell in concert in Brittany

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Noreen
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:09 AM

I'll leave you in peace now..
it is to be hoped so...

Lizzie, give it a rest will you? Any thread you get involved in becomes a diatribe of you versus the rest of the world. (Other threads are not like that!)

If you so dislike the opinions expressed by the majority of people here, why stay here? You're obviously annoying yourself by being here and you are very surely annoying me by going on and on and on.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Noreen
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:14 AM

Thank you for that, Ruth, I'll watch it again with that info to hand. I thought the first could be Eliza, but am not so familiar with the other voices.

I had heard about the RVW concert but hadn't heard anything from it. That song is as you say, glorious.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:17 AM

All right, that's quite enough! I know what you lot need, you judgemental, carping, pettifogging sods. Listen to this....

The Final Word on the Matter!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:22 AM

it was a great concert and a great day, Noreen. I was really honoured to have been involved, to be honest - allof the artists who took part in both the afternoon and evening events gave their time for free, as it was a fundraiser for the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library.

I think there are some more Youtube clips of the event, by the way - I'm grateful to whoever posted them all.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Fidjit
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:23 AM

Think this is English

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Noreen
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:30 AM

Thank you for thst, Little Hawk.

Insightful as ever!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM

English Acoustic Collective

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Noreen
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:44 AM

Ruth, what part did you play in it?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:48 AM

Enjoying 'Hip-Hop fighting' folk forum stylee...
Alan Stivell rocked there btw. I'll be following that up.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 12:00 PM

I just went off to read what's being written Somewhere Else on The Great Morris Debate and came across this snippet which I'm going to nick wholesale:

There's also something about the general weirdness and strangeness of our music and dance traditions (from Padstow to Bacup via border sides in blackface and tatters). None of that is ever put across by your average substandard beer-swilling wannabe-Cotswold revival side with piss-poor musicians It seems like those types have simply not paid attention to why e.g. Bampton are so good, but then that's only an equivalent to the way most boring folk club "traditional" singers have only ever listened to the surface of revival performers and never ever paid attention to Gordon Hall, Fred Jordan, Harry Cox, Walter Pardon etc., presumably because it's "too hard".

Which seems to go some way towards explaining why some are so obtuse and recalcitrant about stuff they've made not the slightest effort to learn anything about. What it really comes down to is the overriding importance of respecting traditions. Conventions can (and often should) be broken but our cultural heritages have to be respected so that we can add to them.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Northerner
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 12:11 PM

I bought an LP of shanty music once - this might have been 30-40 years ago. There was a men's choir on it. Atrocious! Very cutesy. I 'd swear there was a snythetic seagull on it. I ended up giving it away to my sister.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 12:29 PM

Hi Rosie.
Have been away.
Be assured you will find some incredibly enlightened people on these pages. Ask a question, and you will receive an answer.
(Probably within minutes!!)
Yes of course, like any family, there are a few nutcases out there. But, in general, It's a very welcoming place to dwell in.
Ralph

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 12:46 PM

I was just thinking about Dr Who. I have to say, I never got Dr Who before the new series started with Christopher Eccleston 5 years ago. I still can't bear watching the "old" Doctors - I find it all a bit creaky and cringey and I can't relate to it. Maybe if I had grown up with it, "traditional" Doctor would work for me. Maybe if I sat down and watched enough of the traditional series I'd start to get it - it's a case of becoming familiar with its conventions and appreciating it on its own terms.

On the other hand, the sophistication and the production values of the "revival" Doctor really work for me. I love the acting, the storylines, I can enjoy it with my daughter - it's accessible and fun and I can't wait to see the new Doctor in action! Bring him on!

Some people who loved the traditional series HATE the revival series, and are content to watch the old episodes without ever engaging with the revival. But I'm certainly not going to demand that they enjoy the revival in the way that I do. I have respect for their choice, though I may not agree with it personally.

Some people are lucky enough to enjoy both the traditional and the revival Doctors - they have enough of a history with the former, and enough enjoyment of innovation, that they can enjoy each on its own terms and understand its merits.

Of course, as someone who just enjoys the revival, I would never presume to tell those who prefer the tradition what they ought or ought not watch and enjoy, or indeed - and perhaps especially - what the RIGHT way is to demonstrate one's enjoyment. Because that would make me like a Cyberman, who expects everyone to think just like I do.

Just saying. By the way, I'm torn about my favourite Doctor. Christopher Eccleston had that lovely northern meloncholy, but David Tennant is so charismatic...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 12:51 PM

Tom Baker.

Dr Who should have a scarf, fer chrissake.
It's traditional.

(Dunno who Will Smith is, but wasn't 'Harry Potter' in the running? Would he have kept his clothes on?)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM

Tom Baker for me too. Plus I like a Doctor with a somewhat fey and dangerous quality a la Gene Wilders Willy Wonka.

Even so, I did watch the old Dr.Who, and also watch the new, and enjoy them both. Have cake and eat it, probably sums up my approach to anyhting I enjoy, except for cake...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Surreysinger
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:02 PM

Hi Rosie ... nice to talk to you again (we emailed each other just after your postings elsewhere) . As Ralphie said, there are many incredibly enlightened and extremely knowledgeable people on here (Johnny Adams quite often being one of them) ... and some of them you have already been speaking to on the Trad Song Forum and EFDSS forum (me included) ... although sometimes not necessarily under the names they had there (like yourself).

The folk community is, as you've found out, generally an incredibly welcoming one ... and the word "family" which Ralph used is very appropriate. (Incidentally, knowing your choral background ... DO have a listen to Morten Lauridsen's "O Magnum Mysterium" , which Ralphie recommended to Lizzie, if you haven't already heard it - although of all the versions on Youtube, I think I would actually recommend the Robert Shaw conducted version as probably being the best (there are better ones on record as well).) You will also find that, like yourself, many of us on here have quite wide reaching musical (and other) interests, and enquiring minds. It's good to see that you're still on the case of seeking out the real stuff, making enquiries and still enthusiastic.

Keep on keeping on!!!

And perhaps we could all now return to the original thread concept, which was actually quite fun, after this massive drift into a sense of horrible deja vu ? (Liked your terribly serious posting, Little Hawk !!)
Regards
Irene

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Surreysinger
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:10 PM

Ooo... Doctor Who ... now you're talking ... I personally go for both the old and the new ,having grown up with the original versions. They're two different items, but the new ones couldn't exist without the basis of the old, and also maintain a lot of the traditions of the old series (sonic screwdriver, two hearts etc). However,I didn't and don't like the Daleks or the Cybermen. But that doesn't mean that I'm forced to watch the episodes with either of them in it, or necessarily to like them when they're on ... although I did find the Christmas episode was not half bad !!

As to the scarf .. well yes, I have to agree that the Doctor really should have one... but, having said that, I hadn't realised until lately that I'd missed it's inclusion. Will Smith is an unknown quantity to me at present, but, as with David Tennant, who I'd never seen before (and absolutely adore in the role) I'm going into the next regeneration with a very open mind, to see what he can come up with!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:20 PM

Did other Doctors besides Tom Baker have a scarf, then? You traddies will have to forgive my ignorance.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:29 PM

I've got a faint memory of Peter Davidson, the Doctor after Tom Baker, wearing some sort of scarf, but I'm not even sure about him. I'm pretty sure none of the others have had a scarf.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:37 PM

Peter Davidson certainly had a stethoscope wrapped round his neck. This was because he was actually a Yorkshire vet. Probably Ruth knows that if he came to look after her cows.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:43 PM

I don't live in Yorkshire. I live in Borsetshire.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Surreysinger
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:44 PM

Yup ... Peter Davidson did at the very first (although Wikipedia states that he unravelled it in the first episode of Castrovalva), and so did Sylvester McCoy (a smaller type of paisley scarf) ... I think Colin Baker had a rather florid cravat. (I just checked, and there seem to be masses of knitting patterns out there to knit your own Doctor Who scarf ... good grief!!)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Surreysinger
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 01:45 PM

Where;s Kevin Shiels when you need him??

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:02 PM

Hi again Irene :-)
You in fact came into my thoughts, when I posted my responses to some of Lizzies comments below. I've also seen Mr.Red about here, a name that I recognise from the Trad Song forum, and who contributed answers to my questions there.

While you're here, please post a link to your MySpace page here on this thread for me? I'd like to take another look at your material on Lucy. My inbox is an absolute cluttered-up mess...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:04 PM

Though I hastily add, *not* as an an example of OMGTT!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:06 PM

Tom Baker's garb in Doctor Who was actually what he wore in real life - he just continued wearing it for the TV series. The band I played in in London in the late 60s/early 70s had a twice-a-week residency at the Redan (corner of Queensway and Westbourne Grove) and TB was one of several bods who came along to watch and listen from time to time. A genial cove, as I recall, who regularly stood us pints and looked just like...Doctor Who.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 02:36 PM

He must have been pestered a lot by people on the street, at the pub, that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: oldhippie
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:20 PM

Tom Baker was my favorite "Doctor" and I loved the Daleks !!!!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Surreysinger
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 06:48 PM

Hi Rosie
I've PM'd the link to you rather than post anything up on this thread as it's more than a little off topic !!![grin]
Irene

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:36 PM

In amongst all of Lizzies incessant verbiage, I missed this line.

"Ask Ralph Jordan about all of his CDs I sold via the BBC website"

Right then, you want to know the answer to that. A BIG FAT ZERO, as it had already sold out (apart from a couple that popped up in a few festival boxes a bit later). So, you can stop that one straight away.

Hello Rosie. As you so sagely noticed this place can/is a bit of a bear pit sometimes! But, doesn't every family have a mad Uncle and a gushing Aunt??!!
Just continue to ask questions, and you'll probably get several answers!! This place is a goldmine of information. Some extrememly emminent intellects and musicians (some well known, some not. Not that that matters).

If you hear a song or a tune, or want to know about a strange instrument. This is the place. Out of interest, what part of the country are you in? Do you play, sing, dance?

Look forward to answering any questions if I can! Toodle Pip
Ralphie

Say hello to Johnny Adams next time you see him. Top Bloke!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:15 AM

What you quoted me as saying:

"Ask Ralph Jordan about all of his CDs I sold via the BBC website"

From you:

"Right then, you want to know the answer to that. A BIG FAT ZERO, as it had already sold out (apart from a couple that popped up in a few festival boxes a bit later). So, you can stop that one straight away."

What I actually said above, was this:

"Ask Ralph Jordan, heck, I sold quite a few of his CDs via my enthusiasm on the BBC board."

It's always best to quote someone's words correctly, otherwise it can be seen as someone trying to spin what was said.

If you recall, I found some online. That's where I got my copy from and where the others got theirs from too. There were only 3 copies in all, which I located, I bought one and the other two went as well. Whether anymore were found by anybody else, I don't know. Many people read that board, but never post, same with Mudcat.

Here are the two BBC threads about it, but beware of the smileys, as I did use a lot in those days. :0)

Patterson Jordan Dipper Blues

Patterson Jordan Dipper Gold


And here is a little Bede to bring a smile to your face again, Ralph.

Albion Chronicles - Bede and others...

But, if that doesn't help, then look in the 'video section' on that page, and you'll find a link to 'The Exe Estuary' where you can not only see some beautiful scenery, but hear Show of Hands track of that name, from their instrumental CD 'The Path' which is a musical journey around The South West Coast Path.

Oh, and they too have their own page, where you can read all about that CD:

Show of Hands 'Somewhere in the West Country - The Albion Chronicles

And if all that fails to relax you, and remind you of a time when once we were friendly to each other, which I far preferred, and still, to this day, don't understand why that changed...then you can go for a walk....

Along The Downs

Good Morning, Ralph.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:47 AM

Having read the threads, it appears that Chris Murray "found" two copis of the CD in question on Amazon (arduous search, that must have been). You bought one and someone else bought the other.

THIS is the basis of the assertion that you've been making for the past few years that you "sold quite a few of his CDs via my enthusiasm on the BBC board"?

I'm not sure that your own assessment of your impact and influence on Ralph's career quite matches the reality, Lizzie.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 04:12 AM

Career? Ruthie! What career!! LOL.
And as an aside. Have never made a penny from it either!
Don't know how Amazon got hold of them, but, Hey what the heck!!
If anyone wants one nowadays, I have been known to burn off the odd copy.
Hope you thaw out soon.
Ralphie

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 04:25 AM

When I challenged Ms Cornish's outrageous claim to have been, singlehanded, a sales agent for Flat Earth, she came out with the following:

It's your music, you keep it in it's [sic] box and then it will always remain the same. No matter that they are simply songs sung by ordinary people from way back.

I'd have put this into Rosie's "recomendations" thread but the band ain't playing and the CD's O/P. For those who may want to listen to this work if it ever gets its 3rd pressing, the entire point is its arrangements, updates and innovations which render the trad tracks fresh and new and quite unlike previous renditions, and showcase new compositions which point to where English music is today.

In contrast to most of the bedraggled copyist offerings MLC drags out, there's not not a phrase in it that's derivative or remotely resembling "dreadful". Be carewell where you get your "assessments" from.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 04:34 AM

Thanks Diane!
Oh and Rosie, happy to burn you a copy....It's really quite nice, (well I think so!).
Nothing to listen to online (as far as I know) but you might find leads to some reviews by searching Wildgoose Records...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 04:53 AM

Hi Ralphie, just quickly I aughta say I don't personally know Johnny Adams, he ran the forums which first introduced me to the 'traddie community'- including SurrySinger/Irene there. And as I said below, everyone there were so nice and encouraging that I wanted to offer my own somewhat brighter take on traddies.

I can't even begin to pretend to understand all of the issues which lead to such heated debating jon the Cat, but if my personal experience was anything to go by, I certainly don't believe that they want to keep their arts away from the people, but I can I think understand why they would wish to preserve the integrity of the tradition that they work with.

I'm learning to sing a bit... Specifically what caught my interest a couple or so months ago, was the (until then unknown to me) tradition of *unaccompanied English song*. So I'm picking up the odd song here and there, even though frankly I haven't sung hardly at all this winter since discovering trad song, due to various lingering coughs, flue, and asthma!! Typical huh!! So my 'reportoire' is still dreadfully shabby and meagre. But hey, there's plenty of time left in the rest of my life to learn more songs. Apart from singing, I've also got an old mandolin, which I'm starting to learn, and keyboards, and a Viol. Bit of a bizzare mix now I think on it.

Looking forward to going to Sidmouth festival this year, amongst perhaps one or two other forays into the folk fest scene. So I expect I'll get to learn a lot more about folk and the people that populate this board, this Summer. Very pleased to be here I am too.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 05:06 AM

"I certainly don't believe that they want to keep their arts away from the people, but I can I think understand why they would wish to preserve the integrity of the tradition that they work with."

And she's got it in one. :)

Rosie, there are people who have been on this forum for years who still haven't got their heads round this idea. All I can say is, welcome aboard!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 05:07 AM

Ooops, hey Ralphie, I'll take you up on that, ta! Gotta dash now though...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 05:14 AM

Well Sidmouth is the place to go. !! Not just for the big events, but do check out the Volunteer which runs every lunchtime. Enourmous fun, and powerful singing. No idea who's on the bill as yet, but a guaranteed hit. lots of traditional singing. (Irene almost lives there so, be warned, don't knick her seat!!)
You'd be welcome in the Radway (opposite the cinema), which is where I mainly hang out. All caliber of musicians, and bring your mandolin too. I might bring mine and we can Duet!

Oh and in case you didn't know Ruth Archer (Joan Crump) of this parish has just been appointed artistic director (or some other weird title!). No doubt she'll be able to inform you as to whats happening when as the months pass by. She's not bad for a Yank!

And if your coming down Sidders Why not stay on for Dartmoor Fest (follows on from Sid). Very different, and hey you might want to enter the step dancing competition! Not quite confirmed but my band Housewives Choice might be doing the Saturday night dance. Always a hoot!
Onwards and happy listening/singing/playing....God I hope you've got a large credit limit!!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 05:31 AM

I was the Programmer at my last festival - Artistic Director sounds dead posh.

And don't I feel ever so posh, writing out all these contracts...it's all glamour, dontcha know.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 05:39 AM

Oh Ruthie, don't be so modest!!
But hey, It's a good thing that Ms Sleepy Rosie has found people like you!
Later Ralphie xx

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 05:54 AM

From Diane:

"When I challenged Ms Cornish's outrageous claim to have been, singlehanded, a sales agent for Flat Earth, she came out with the following:

"It's your music, you keep it in it's box and then it will always remain the same. No matter that they are simply songs sung by ordinary people from way back. To you, they are almost holy.'"

I said that, yes, but after I had said this:

"Yup, that's right...and I tracked down a few copies..and they then went too after I'd spoken about that CD, but...let's not get in to it all over again, eh.

It's your music, you keep it in it's box and then it will always remain the same. No matter that they are simply songs sung by ordinary people from way back. To you, they are almost holy.

So keep them in your holy book, with its religious rules and boundaries. I'm out here listening and enjoying music that has no boundaries and that belongs to a world where all are welcome."

So, far from claiming to have 'singlehandedly' been a sales agent for flat earth, I said that I had merely sold a few copies. Please feel free to read my words above on misrepresenting what people have actually said. (Although as you were once a journalist, I presume this may happen without you realising you are doing it, which is why I feel beholden to point it out) :0)


From 'Ruth':

Having read the threads, it appears that Chris Murray "found" two copis of the CD in question on Amazon (arduous search, that must have been). You bought one and someone else bought the other.

THIS is the basis of the assertion that you've been making for the past few years that you "sold quite a few of his CDs via my enthusiasm on the BBC board"?

I'm not sure that your own assessment of your impact and influence on Ralph's career quite matches the reality, Lizzie.

Sigh...

All three of the Amazon copies went, within hours of me posting. I bought one, Ade bought one, Chris, I presume bought one, and she's on record for saying she has bought CDs after reading my recommendations, from time to time..and Anne was off to try and find another. Whether Anne and Chris actually did buy them, I've no idea, ALL I know is that ALL three CDs were sold. Someone, I assume, therefore was unable to buy one, as 4 into 3 don't go.

I realise that you, Ralph and Diane are all very, very close buddies, but I sure as heck wish the you'd all get off the three seats left vacant by Macbeth's Witches, and let the cauldron cease from Hubble Bubbling all the time.

I have *never* claimed to have done other than what I did, and that was to be able to sell 'a few' of Ralph's CDs for him. I was very pleased that I'd been able to do that, as he and the rest of the band made good music. I'm also pleased, if, because of this ridiculous hulabaloo that Ralph will now be sending Rosie one of his CDs. I'm sure she'll like it.

I'm also sure she'll love Sidmouth, in the same way that I once did.

'Live' from Sidmouth

Dartmoor festy is, as Ralph says, well worth a visit. Far more 'countryfied' than Sidmouth, but equally charming.

Dartmoor Folk Festival - 'Devon Heaven'

And of course, as Rosie likes 'sparkles' something tells me she may also love The Levellers own festival, which again, is well worth going to. Sadly though, you can no longer buy 'day' tickets, unless they've changed it back, for this year, which I sure hope they do one day.

Beautiful Days Festival

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 05:59 AM

By the way, apologies if many links in the festival messages of mine no longer work, but they were written several years back and the internet constanty changes and updates all the time. (And yes, I'm the 'number' on those posts, as my name was deleted by the BBC waaaay back now, after The Witches won their quest) :0)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Harmony Angel
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 06:15 AM

Many years ago I bought an LP of Irish fiddle music played by a guy named Dinty McLaughlin (or something like that). Not only did he play the fiddle but he was step dancing while he did so! The resulting noise was truly unbelievable. If that wasn't bad enough, the track grooves on the LP weren't concentric with the hole in the middle of the disk so the pitch of the aforementioned noise went up and down as the record revolved. It's so bad it really makes you laugh.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 06:19 AM

Warlock If you don't mind.
Ralph ("In one bar there was Patterson Jordan Dipper, In the other bar, musicians" - Quote Lizzie) Jordan.
PS The only person stirring up stuff here is you.
It was an interesting thread to start with. And then you trampled all over it. What is the female equivalent of Mr Franks I wonder?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 06:48 AM

Much as I hate to be a pedant...

firstly, you did not "sell" the CDs, Lizzie. Secondly, the thread you have linked to says there were two CDs available - you bought one and someone else bought the other. This does not equate to you selling "quite a few of Ralph's CDs."

"I realise that you, Ralph and Diane are all very, very close buddies,"

I understand that it serves your purpose to believe this, Lizzie, because you can then give credence to the idea that there is a cohesive group of people who are out to get you. Diane and I have never met. Ralphie and I have met a few times in real life, because we've been at the same events. That's it. All three of us have disagreed with you quite strongly in the past, but that means no more than the fact that we, as individuals, disagree with you.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:10 AM

And to add Ms Archers comments. (Hi Joan, Long time no see...A year-ish?)
No this is not a monstrous regiment of women (plus one token bloke) ganging up on you. But Please....I think we know who you like in a musical way. Jolly Good. I happen to like Carla Bley, Frank Zappa, Bela Bartok, Stravinsky. Robert Wyatt, Soft Machine, alongside all the Traditional singers and musicians that you seem to have dissed in favour of modern Singer Songwriters.
Do I bang on about my interests incessantly? No I don't. If a topic comes up that is useful, then I contribute, and have met several great friends by doing so.
What I don't do is a sky burst of gooey sicky yucky fandom.
Why not go to a gooey sicky yucky fandom site for that.
And leave the people who want to disseminate and share real ideas alone.


Sorry "insert band name here) make me want to play with daffodils" needs to live elsewhere. Preferably a long long way from me.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:16 AM

That last line came out wonky!
Should read.

"Have you heard xxxxxx? They/He/She makes me want to play with puppies and watch daffodils growing"

Shaking head sadly!!

And Rosie the offer is still on...You can get my address via Irene (Surreysinger)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:06 AM

You know, 'Ruth', I've just been reading that "'Live' from Sidmouth thread" above. It actually brought a tear or two to my eyes. It's filled with happiness, and colours, and bright, bright things.

It's also filled with great memories, for me. Heck, I wrote it...and I *loved* writing it, every single one of those 15,000 words about it, I loved doing all of it. It wore me out that year, I remember, as I was reading it back. Dashing here and there, dashing home to look after my animals and Nanny, back down to town again..etc.etc..

When I got to the end of those words though, there was Diane, pouring cold water on the whole damn lot, and the arguments started. Why? Why can't you three just occasionally say something kind, huh? Everyone else enjoyed those words, apart from one other misery guts who 'had' to make a point about smileys...but nope, down swooped Diane The Dementor, sucking out all the joy and happiness. I truly don't understand.

I don't care if you've actually met each other. I know that Diane and Ralph are great pals, because she's told me. I truly don't care about all three of you any longer, full stop. I just think you come across as unhappy people, determined to belittle and put someone down who once loved 'your' music. Only the three of you know why that is.

Personally, I'd recommend that you read those words on Sidmouth, that were written during the first Folk Week, then stop niggling away at me and try turning your attentions to ensuring that this year's Sidmouth folk week is as outstanding as the first one was, or perhaps, even more so. I'd have far more respect for you if you did that.

It's obvious, for those who choose to see, that the same gang of people are the ones constantly on my back about the same subject, because your names, along with your words, are on various boards. It truly ain't hard to work out. Personally, I'd have preferred to pm Ralph, but as he always posts on here as a 'Guest' I can't do that.

Read the Sidmouth review though, and see a very 'different' Ralph, one who enjoyed me talking about his band, who enjoyed the Sidmouth review and who enjoyed talking about his music, as he has done once more, on this thread. For some reason that all changed, at least, in relation to me. I wish it hadn't, but there ya go. I'd always got on well with Ralph, as those threads show, giving mention of his band whenever I could, trying to draw people in to their music, and whether you like it or not, I did do that. I've done it for others too, and I'm always pleased when it happens, because I write for that very reason, to tell people about artists whose music I love, in the hope that they too will buy the CDs, help to spread the word.

For some reason, you and a few others have always resented me talking about 'your' music, loving it in the way I once did. Well, now you don't have to worry any longer. There'll be no more reports on Sidmouth from me, so unless you or your friends decide to pick up from where I left off, which I think would be a good idea, all will be quiet on the Sidmouth front, save for a few personal messages swapped back and forth between you all.

And now, I'll leave you three to continue to welcome Rosie to 'your' world.

I hope she discovers much beautiful music along the way, and I also hope she decides never to take part in what the three of you, and your mates, persist in doing.   I am not a victim, never have been, never will be, but I am sorely p*ssed off with no longer being able to write on the BBC about a music I so loved, purely because of petty minded, spiteful, jealous, controlling little minds, who refused to let me just write in my own way about something which was once so important to me. Those minds, even to this day, take satisfaction in getting any new posts from me, removed from the BBC board, completely overlooking the fact that what they are doing is removing words about artists, about music, with links to the pages of those musicians, for others to find and love. No, such is the meaness of spirit, and their perverse hatred of me, that they care not a fig for musicians, not a fig that not nearly enough people write about musicians on that board, as they're too damned busy writing drivel about themselves, which is of no interest to anyone.

And before you come back to me with the usual screams of how artists hide in corners, shivering in fright that I may write about them, you and I know that isn't true. I've been sent many CDs over the years by artists themselves. Go figure. You know well that friends of yours have sent me tickets for festivals. Go figure. Sorry kiddo, I can sell CDs with my enthusiasm, so *just* get over it, and in the past, I've worked damn hard at doing exactly that, not for me, but for musicians.

I'm sorely p*ssed off at the way you, Diane and Ralph have either misquoted or twisted my words in here, to try and make people see me in a bad light, yet again.

In short, just get over it, and move on. Move on to keeping Sidmouth safe for other generations to enjoy.


And now, I'm off to listen to some more music, which for me, is almost beyond beauty, the wonderful Loreena McKennitt again, her 'Mask and the Mirror'CD....and from that CD, here is, imo, the very beautiful and moving:

Mystic's Dream



And I'll leave you with these final words, taken from above..

From Diane:

"Dreadful is perhaps too impassioned a word to use about McKennit-Enya-like tosh."

From me:

"What I can't stand is arrogant viewpoints that 'we' are so much better than 'them', because 'we' know all about proper 'traditional' music.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Surreysinger
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:10 AM

I'm on the case, Ralphie! Rosie - hope you got my PM ... I don't think I left my email address on it, but you should find one of them on the "Listen and You Shall Hear" MySpace page.

If you want any suggestions on places to sing at Sidmouth etc we can continue the conversation!! Ralphie isn't QUITE right in suggesting that I live in the Volunteer - I have been known to venture elsewhere, even into the Radway this year on two occasions, having been forced to go there and play concertina by Ralphie (thanks RJ!!) And I DON'T have a specific seat ... what is he insinuating?? I gave up my position as member of the Bay Window Mafia (thanks to Tom Addison for the name!!) in 2008 ... maybe it should be Inglenook Flashmob from now on in ??

Can I say here that I think I may very well be able to claim the privilege of having bought the very last copy of Flat Earth up for sale, having managed to find one on sale by Roots Records in Coventry on the internet. That sale was, of course, nothing to do with Lizzie's postings on the BBC board two years previously. They had just the one, and the proprietor of the company had not realised it was out of print ... I managed to buy that in summer 2008 ... and a very good buy it was too, as I finally got to see the sleeve notes and the cover artwork !! I reckon you should enjoy it Rosie.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:13 AM

'Modern Singer Songwriters' are the New Tradition, whether you like it or not. And you know what, Ralph, you and your mates have a great deal to learn from them.

Never ONCE have any of them been bitchy, unpleasant, belittling, or foul of spirit, to me. Only ever, welcoming, kind, friendly and appreciative. You should hang out with far more of them. They have MUCH to teach the closed English Traditional world.

Now, I'd suggest you swallow your bitterness, then keep it to yourself, because it's not pleasant for others to see.

Get back to the music, Ralph. It's what you do best.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:21 AM

And another thread becomes All About Lizzie. There's a shocker.

For the record, you had been banned from folk messageboards for your OTT behaviour long before I ever even joined any of them. So again, the conspiracy theory doesn't quite add up.

I DO know artists who find your behaviour very disturbing, because they have told me. I also know at least one high-profile artist who used to contribute to messageboards but doesn't anymore, specifically because of your antics. Which is unfortunate, because I feel pretty sure I know whose perspective most people would be more interested in.

No one need twist your words to put you into a bad light, Lizzie. They need only read your posts.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:34 AM

A "modern singer-songwriter" is merely a description of performing one's own compositions.
Similarly, a "singer of traditional songs" performs music from a tradition.
They are different.
The Young Tradition was a 60s revivalist a capella band, whereas the "New Tradition" is a wholly contradictory, meaningless term coined by MLC to make a non-existent point, just in case she ceases to be the centre of attention (ha!)
It's very hard to pinpoint what a performer of a not exclusively traditional repertoire on a number of instruments could learn from a songwriter.
A workshop could be done on it, though. Ask the participants what they want to learn about then demonstrate something else entirely. A new and entirely useless genre of performance art.
Gawd, I feel so . . . tired.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Banjiman
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:54 AM

This thread is better than a soap opera ...... even the radio 4 one!




This is dreadful........but then I don't like pianos in folk music at the best of times.

What you shouldn't do to a folk song/ tune

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:55 AM

"And now, I'll leave you three to continue to welcome Rosie to 'your' world."

Buddy 'ell. This is all starting to sound a bit freaky and cult-like from where I'm sitting... "She's my wife now" Lol!
Just for the record. I've had as good as *zero* interaction with Diane Easby online here. I don't know who she is, and I'm sure she's not interested in me. Though Ruth amongst a few other posters here, has been very accommodating and helpful. And as far as I know, those individuals who I referred to in my earlier post - and who initially welcomed me to traddie-land on those other fora I mentioned - are probably floating around here someplace under alternate ID's (such as Surrysinger below, who I've only just recognised). I've no interest in being cast as being absorbed into some cult-like exclusive clique. I have no real understanding of all the fueding, but I can see that it's not very positive for the music. Even so, it's not my gig.
My mind, suffice it to say, is entirely my own. And shall ever remain so. So be assured, if I ever squabble with you, it'll only ever be because you have *personally* given me genuine cause to do so.. And you'd have to work hard to really piss me off, 'cos I'm usually quite laid back. Though of course I do have periods still... ;-)
Anyway, I don't want to start feeling paranoid. The internet is a weird enough place as it is.... So enough on that!

Beautiful Days, I've heard of btw. And I might take a look into it.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:56 AM

NOTHING is better than the Radio 4 one, Banjiman. Nothing.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:10 AM

"And another thread becomes All About Lizzie. There's a shocker. "

Nope, because I have been deliberately misquoted, I have corrected those words and had my say about what has been going on here. Up to that point I'd merely been disagreeing with the general view from some of those from the trad. world that all celtic music is crap, which I think I'm permitted to do, as is anyone else on this board.

"For the record, you had been banned from folk messageboards for your OTT behaviour long before I ever even joined any of them. So again, the conspiracy theory doesn't quite add up."

Yup, I was banned from the BBC, then let back on. Ian Anderson banned me, but then, Ian Anderson bans quite a few folk, from what I've heard, especially if you aren't from the 'inner circle' or are a (shock horror) singer songwriter. The BBC let me rejoin, and then...whoody doo, along came you, Ralph and Diane.

"I DO know artists who find your behaviour very disturbing, because they have told me."

Then PM me their names. I keep hearing this from you and Diane, so own up to these names. I don't want them embarrassed on here, unless they agree to their names being mentioned.

I've never mentioned any artist who has asked me to keep their names quiet, nor would I. I can tell you that Vaughan, Show of Hands manager did ask me, via Myspace, if I'd go quiet, during the release of 'Witness' as he wanted folk to make up their own minds about the CD without any intervention from me. I did this immediately, and cut right back on my posts about Show of Hands from then on. Steve said thanks, via email, through a mutual friend, when I told him that all would be quiet on the South Western Front. He also said a song with a similar title to that may one day appear. It did, on 'Witness'...a damn brilliant song too.

"I also know at least one high-profile artist who used to contribute to messageboards but doesn't anymore, specifically because of your antics. Which is unfortunate, because I feel pretty sure I know whose perspective most people would be more interested in."

Again...PM their name, or reveal it on here, if you have their permission. I have never shirked from honesty Joan. So instead of saying these things to get people wondering, or again, to paint a bad picture of me, tell us.

I am into honesty, so, be honest.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Banjiman
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:10 AM

Ruth,

Unfortunately my wife agrees.........

Paul

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:11 AM

For those who appear to have an interest and for the avoidance of any doubt, my communications with the Cowperson of Ambridge have been limited to the electronic and although we have been close to meeting on a number of occasions, fate or perhaps more deliberate forces have conspired to prevent it. Ralph Jordan and I know each other but it needs to be borne in mind that he is someone with a contacts book the size of a small planet.

I do not know MLC, whatever the impression she tries to convey. Like Ruth though, I've heard from many a musician that they dread her latching on to them (one in a PM just a moment ago . . . )

I also do not know Rosie, but feel I would like to.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:13 AM

Hey Rosie - really, really, really take Ralphie up on his offer. You won't be disappointed. "Flat Earth" is a corker. No discerning home should be without a copy. I only heard it for the first time after it had sold out, again thanks to the generosity and CD burning prowess of one Mr Jordan. Top feller!

Yo Ralphie - check yer emails this weekend! We never followed up on our phone conversation from last year... at least partly because my good intentions keep grinding to a shuddering halt. Confused? Possibly...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:16 AM

As a public service I've started a new thread in BS section.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:19 AM

Oi You.....You started the bloody thread !!! LOL!!!
As a self-confessed "Newbie" this whole diatribe must seem bizarre to you.
It's been going on for years.
OK. to go back to what I think was your original point. You have discovered traditional singing (Mainly ladies but not exclusively) Yes?
You popped into this maelstrom to get some info? yes?
Hopefully you have had a few insights into the length and breadth of the music that has been forgotten and lost.

Said it before, and will say it again.
Ask the question, and you will get the answer.
Will happily send you "Flat Earth" You might like it, you might not...All part of the learning purpose, (I think it's crap personally, should have waited 6 months before....But hey!)
I hope you have a nice weekend.
Now...Hunker down.....here comes Lizzie again....Be Good. Ralphie

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:26 AM

Posters to this thread: 60
Words posted on this thread: 25,000
Words posted on this thread by Lizzie Cornish: 7,000
Average number of words posted by everyone else: 305

I was banned for constantly jabbering on about English folk music, traditional and non-traditional, on the BBC board

You don't say.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:43 AM

Surreysinger, cheers for your PM, will get back to you. And Ralphie I'll be sure and chase up your offer of a CD, many Ta's. Yes and yes. And yes. It can get quite barmy here, in a WTF surreal slapstick way...
But that's t'interenet!

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Fidjit
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:48 AM

Hey Ralphie, Ruth and Diane. Leave some room I up for kicking some butt too !

Well not physically but it grinds on the teeth.

Rosie. I did the Fringe at both Sidmouth and Dartmoor last year and enjoyed every minute. Sure you will too.

Chas

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:56 AM

Lizzie, I do not have their permission to give you their names (perhaps unsurprisingly). I would not seek it, either. But I assure you, I am telling you the truth.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Surreysinger
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:28 AM

Rosie - welcome to the madhouse, as they say! Fortunately, as I think I may have said in one of our previous emails, you'll find, as I think you already have, that the trad world is actually, despite what Lizzie may say, a very welcoming one, and most people will go out of their way to share songs, tunes and knowledge with anyone who shows an interest. It's certainly not a matter of being a closed-in culty clique ... thank heavens!! If it was, I don't think I'd want to know. Look forward to hearing from you. Look out for another PM, by the way.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:42 AM

Hi Rosie.
Welcome.....You have the exact right attitude....
Hopefully see you down the fest season somewhere.
Irene will furnish you with a contact address for me. CD will follow.
Be Kind to yourself.
Hugs Ralphie x

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:25 PM

Quote Lizzie.

"Get back to the music Ralph, It's what you do best"

Thank you so much. Actually I'm better in the kitchen, As a musician I'm actually rather crap. Not that you could tell the difference.
I will treat your comment with the contempt it deserves.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:28 PM

"Lizzie, I do not have their permission to give you their names (perhaps unsurprisingly). I would not seek it, either. But I assure you, I am telling you the truth."

So, let me get this right then, you are 'free' to make any accusation you so choose about me, without producing any evidence, behind the cloak of 'not having someone's permission' to tell me who 'they' are.
In a court of law then, you have no witness for the crime, M'Lud. May I suggest that you therefore stop coming out with something for which you are not willing, or unable, to produce that evidence.

I'm trying to think who it could have been that used to post on the BBC board, who was 'high up' in the folk world. The only person I can recall is Damien Barber and some of the other Demons, and Dave from Mawkin. Now, as you can see from the Sidmouth Folk Week thread above, I love the music of both those artists, and their bands. Damien and Bry were kind enough to give my daughter and I free tickets for Beautiful Days, as I've mentioned before. And Dave often used to natter to me, sometimes to tell me off in a friendly banter, or to come in, as he did on that Dartmoor thread, above, to say "Hello"..and I've met both Damien and David, Bry as well.

I've not been on the BBC board as 'me' for a very, very long time, so why isn't this person back on there, then?

Come on, Joan, leave it out. This is all getting so pathetic. By all means chuck things at me if you can back them up, put links in to words I'm 'supposed to have said'...quote my 'actual' words, rather than those Ralph may want to use, to make me look bad, but you have too much intelligence to sink so low as to be saying these things without any back up.

Tell me, if I were saying such things about you, how would you feel?
And Ralph, if I were misquoting *your* words, how would you feel? Likewise, Diane? Either print the truth, with evidence, or keep lies off the board.

And to the person who took the er...trouble...to count my words, yup, I write a lot, in a short space of time too, I ramble on, and I openly admit it. You don't have to read it..and you too are free to print 7,000 words if you'd like to, I certainly won't count them, nor tell you off for writing them. Besides, I've had a lot to answer in this thread.

And for some good celtic music, try Dom Duff, from Brittany:

Dom Duff's Myspace

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:45 PM

I'd be a witness for the prosecution if MLC could be put in the dock for harassment of musicians and defamation of the tradarts.complained about being maligned or just acutely embarrassed by her inane drivelling and fawning. But they exist. Oh, yes.

I can, however, point to Simon Care who very bravely put his name to a public bollocking he delivered to MLC because he was so incensed at her constant, long-winded blathering.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Noreen
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:48 PM

Lizzie, to quote your 'actual' words:
...the general view from some of those from the trad. world that all celtic music is crap...

You are misquoting many people there; there is not one person on this thread, or anywhere else I have seen, who has said that all celtic music is crap.

Please produce your evidence.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 12:50 PM

TextEdit ate up some of my sentence:

" . . . tradarts, AND DO NOT, EITHER, HAVE THEIR PERMISSION TO QUOTE THEM WHEN THEY complained . . . ?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:01 PM

Celtic crap

I used this expression and I was very clear what I was talking about, i.e. new age, wifty-wafty, commercially-manufactured , tartan- and / or shamrock tinged-lift music with kule'n'weird instruments waved about but not necessarily played.

I posted a clip of Alan Stivell in concert as one example of authentic Celtic music rightfully described as such.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:09 PM

"I can, however, point to Simon Care who very bravely put his name to a public bollocking he delivered to MLC because he was so incensed at her constant, long-winded blathering."

Yup, Simon used to have a go at me now and then, as did David. But it was done in good humour. When I went over to Simon's myspace, I wasn't sure of the reception I'd get. He welcomed me very kindly and courteously, Diane. Sorry to disappoint you.

And again, no point in claiming these things if you have no evidence to back them up. I could say a thousand things about you all, under those rules.

I choose not to, because it would not be true.

Noreen, I wasn't *quoting* anyone at all, I was merely saying that is what the general opinion seemed to be. I suggest you read through this thread. you'll find quite a few bits which relate to anything labelled 'celtic' as being rubbish, those are NOT the actual words used, but they're up there, somewhere. One helluva lot to trawl through, but you'll find them.

Thank you for quoting my words correctly though, it makes a welcome change.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Noreen
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:23 PM

Oh, I have read every word of this thread, as I was enjoying it at the start.
I enjoy an interesting exchange of views about music, and enjoy reading other opinions and learning from them.

I think that is why most people are here.

You obviously have your own opinions and want to force them on other people, even when they are not in the least interested. Most other people would go away in such a situation. You are not persuading anyone, just being annoying.

I think a more accurate summary would be that a lot of music marketed as "Celtic" is crap- and with that I agree.

Others have tried above to point out the difference between the two statements, but you must have missed that.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Surreysinger
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 01:30 PM

Ralphie ... you are most definitely NOT a crap musician, as quite a few other people will, I am sure, stand up and agree. Whether you are a better cook than a musician, I know not ... but.if you are, Mr Ramsey had better watch out!! I for one am pleased to have the chance to be working with you.

Lizzie - please just give it a rest ... I for one am wondering how you come to be posting on Mudcat again, since I had thought that Joe had "banned" you and told you that your posts would be removed over a year ago. You've managed to turn what was a fun thread into something else again, and not for the first time.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:29 PM

Is it? You poor old dear!
I suggest you hot foot it to the Dr., I'm told there's all kinds of hormonal help out there for your problem. Good luck with the vaginal dryness, I'm told it's a right bastard.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:52 PM

Vaginal dryness?
OMG, that WOULD be dreadful, not to mention a right bastard.
This site used to have links posted to all sorts of helpful "products" and "advice".
Wonder what happened?

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 02:55 PM

Noreen..."labelled" "marketed" whatever fits best for you.

From Surreysinger:

"Lizzie - please just give it a rest ... I for one am wondering how you come to be posting on Mudcat again, since I had thought that Joe had "banned" you and told you that your posts would be removed over a year ago."

Yes, it's a bummer isn't it, Irene, when 'the gang' worked so hard to have me removed. Joe sees beyond..although I'd imagine this thread is stretching even his better nature, but I am trying to remain polite.

"You've managed to turn what was a fun thread into something else again, and not for the first time."

Nope, people are free to 'have fun' slagging off whatever they deem as 'celtic' music (so labelled, marketed, etc..etc) and artists like The Chieftans, The Corrs, Loreena McKennitt and Enya if they so wish, but I happen to love their music, so I'll defend them, vociferously. I also dislike arrogance, narrow-mindedness, lies, spinning, mis-quoting, rudeness and hypocrisy.

We are each entitled to our opinions on music and musicians, me as much as you.

And now...back to 'Dreadful'   :0)

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:14 PM

"This site used to have links posted to all sorts of helpful "products" and "advice"."

Ahh, such a pastoral ethos!

Of course if the Cat is to become home to "passers-by" seeking help for their 'female problems', only seems fair that we provide compassionate aid for other sensitive areas like 'erectile dysfunction' (or in latin: 'guest limp-dickus'), which I'm also told is a right bastard...

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 03:17 PM

"Noreen, I wasn't *quoting* anyone at all, I was merely saying that is what the general opinion seemed to be.
...
Thank you for quoting my words correctly though, it makes a welcome change."

Well, I object most strongly to Lizzie's assertion that everyone who doesn't like Cliff Richard is a tight-arsed tone-deaf snob with a Geordie accent, a wooden leg and a third nipple. Of course, I'm not quoting Lizzie here, but that's what her general opinion seems to be. Those are NOT the actual words used, but it's up there in her comments, somewhere. One helluva lot to trawl through, but you'll find them.

yup, I write a lot, in a short space of time too, I ramble on, and I openly admit it.

Lizzie, you write too much. Much, much, much too much. You swamp the thread. You drive people away. It's boring. Even if I agreed with every word you wrote, I would want you to shut up.

Subject: RE: Oh My God, That's Dreadful!!!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 04:00 PM

I love you too, Pip! :0) x

---

I love you, too, Lizzie - but I think people are right in saying this has become another "All About Lizzie" thread. I'm going to close it. If there's more to be discussed, somebody can start another thread on the same subject.

Lizzie, talk about music, not about yourself. If somebody says something that challenges you - talk about music, not about yourself. If our Beloved Diane Easby mentions your name - talk about music, not about yourself.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-