BS: US Health Care Reform

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:56 PM

Washington Post:


A $300 billion deception
Congress plays make-believe, but the bill to taxpayers is real.

Sunday, November 15, 2009

HAVING PASSED a health reform bill that is, at least theoretically, paid for, the House of Representatives is poised this week to blow a quarter-trillion-dollar hole in the federal budget involving, you guessed it, health care. This is the so-called doc fix, to prevent scheduled cuts in Medicare reimbursements to physicians from taking effect.

Say you are a member of Congress who agrees that the cuts should be rescinded -- that physician payments shouldn't be reduced, that is -- but also believes that the payments should not add to the national debt? Under the rule governing the House debate, you won't be allowed to suggest any offsetting savings. Either you go for the doc fix and add massively to the deficit, or you torpedo the fix and wreak havoc in the Medicare program, with a 21 percent cut set to take effect Jan 1. Nice choice. It puts those who believe in both fiscal responsibility and averting these draconian cuts in an impossible situation.

By the way, don't be fooled by the incredible shrinking "cost" of the fix. The official Congressional Budget Office estimate used to be $245 billion over 10 years. Now it's $210 billion. In fact, the real hit to the budget will be closer to $300 billion. The lower CBO numbers stem primarily from the administration's move to change the rules about which physician payments are subject to the cuts. The administration proposed a regulation to exempt drugs administered in doctor's offices, such as chemotherapy, from the spending ceiling. That has the effect of making the cost of the fix look smaller, but it doesn't change the ultimate drain on the treasury: Medicare will end up paying out the same amount of money.

All of this is, to some degree, Medicare kabuki to placate the American Medical Association. The Senate doesn't have the votes to pass a permanent fix without paying for it -- though, of course, it also doesn't have the votes actually to pay for it. So while the House might pass the unpaid-for fix, it will likely die there. The result will be another year-long, or possible two-year, patch slapped on this mess. Finding the money to pay for the fix and, more to the point, cobbling together the political coalition to support it, is difficult. Which is why Congress and the administration have joined hands in the pretense that the doc fix has nothing whatsoever to do with health reform.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:14 PM

This is for your enlightenment and enjoyment, Rig.

CLICKY

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Art Thieme
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 01:12 AM

Way way back in this thread I delineated why Carol and I, and so many more like us, need the single payer system of public option to become a reality. Now it seems the health bills are so watered down that nothing at all will be changed except an increased tolerance for purveyers of anti abortion rhetoric. People, I, respectfully, leave the debate. What will be, WILL be. My mistake was to hope for a logical and humane outcome that favors inclusion over exclusion and charitable empathy over selfishness and maximization of personal and corporate wealth.

Goodnight people.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 10:05 AM

Pointless indeed!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:47 AM

Sure am glad to learn, Rig, that there were no 'meaningful' illegal immigrants before 1965.

As I said above - pointless.

Ta for now...

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:18 AM

The origin of the names do not determine the nationality in the US. The immigration or citizenship status does. Besides, you can't talk about illegal immigration in the US, in any meaningful way, before the passage of the 1965 Immigration Reform Act.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 06:22 PM

Juan, Roselita, Jesus y Maria. . . .

Good, solid Scandinavian names, those.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 05:13 PM

But the workers he was singing about were American nationals, not illegal aliens.

HUH? For example, you ever hear Plane Wreck at Los Gatos?

Apparently no point in carrying this discussion on

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 03:10 PM

Link

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 06:49 PM

I'll PM you about that, Doug. It would be too much of a departure from the rest of this thread, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 06:26 PM

Well, as I get it, Doug, Rig is opposed to any kind of health care public option because he's convinced that boatloads and buses full of illegal immigrants would come rushing into the U. S. to take advantage of free or inexpensive health care and break the country.

I gather from what you say that you're not fond of the idea of national health care and are satisfied with what you have (which, as has been pointed out, is government funded and paid for by taxes), but your reasons, though I can't agree, are nowhere near as far-fetched at Rig's.

His constant trotting out of his particular hobby horse is where the thread gets off the real subject.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: DougR
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 05:58 PM

Don't know what this has to do with the title of the thread, but in Arizona, the number of illegals crossing the border has diminished greatly due, primarily, to the diligence of our county sheriff. I haven't heard of any crops rotting the fields as a result of them not being harvested.

L.H.: Do my eyes deceive me, or are you under the mistaken impression that the 911 terrorists were American citizens?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 05:49 PM

"Without the migrant workers, most of whom, as I say, are "illegals," you'd be paying one helluva lot more for the food you eat."

                And I'd be happy to pay it. But somebody would still be harvesting the crops.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 05:04 PM

"Without the migrant workers, most of whom, as I say, are "illegals," you'd be paying one helluva lot more for the food you eat."

And there is the whole matter in a nutshell.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 04:40 PM

My Gawd, Rig, this is a no-brainer—common knowledge to anyone who pays any kind of attention at all.

Migrant workers following the harvests. This is almost a cliché. But it is still going on. And last I checked, the vast majority were from Mexico or further south in Central America, and most of them are "illegals." The working conditions involve long hours (sunrise to sunset, no eight hour days), rushing to get the crop harvested (lest they spoil in the fields), and one of the main problems is constant exposure to pesticides. No nice house to go home to, they stay in shacks or tents on the farm where they are working. If lucky, a dollar or two a bushel for whatever the crop is, and no benefits. The only difference between this and "pickin' cotton" before the Civil War is that they actually do get paid, but other than that, there's damned little difference.

Same sort of thing goes on in eastern Washington State with apple harvests and various other crops.

Most Americans won't touch these jobs even if they're starving on the streets.

And no, this is not dipping into history, it's going on right now. Without the migrant workers, most of whom, as I say, are "illegals," you'd be paying one helluva lot more for the food you eat.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 04:12 PM

You're quite sure of that, are you?

The part about "foreigners", I mean...

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 01:50 PM

LH - Just like Hispanics running leaf blowers in California, blowing up the WTC buildings was done by foreigners, but it wasn't meaningful employment.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 12:17 PM

Blowing up the World Trade Center's buildings # 1, 2, and 7?

No wait....it was American personnel who did that too...

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 09:07 AM

You're right, dick, the slimy employers are the problem now, just as they were during the 1930's when Woody sang about migrant workers. But the workers he was singing about were American nationals, not illegal aliens.

               And Greg F, name one job Americans wouldn't do that illegal's do.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 08:48 AM

I've never seen an illegal immigrant do a job a native born American wouldn't do.

No offense, but are you blind, or just not looking all that hard?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 12:13 AM

Rig-
Illegals don't hire themselves---businessmen do. If you want to get rid of undocumented immigrants, crack down on the guys that hire them.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Neil D
Date: 12 Nov 09 - 12:13 AM

The Frontline program Don firth mentioned was very informative. The five countries examined, each of which do a better job of caring for their people at a fraction of U.S cost, had quite diverse healthcare systems, but they all have this in common: It is against the law for insurance providers to make a profit on basic coverage and prices for services are fixed. This rational, humane and common sense approach has never even been on the table in the healthcare debate currently raging in the U. S. congress. Why? The ONLY reason that this country won't even consider an intelligent solution to our healthcare crisis is the billions being spent by insurance companies and "Big Pharma" on lobbying Congress, campaign contributions and propagandizing the American public.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 11:24 PM

Exactly so, Little Hawk. You beat me to it. Thanks!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 11:00 PM

A Woody Guthrie song about illegal immigrants: "Deportees (Plane Crash at Los Gatos)"

Then there's "Pastures of Plenty" too, I think. Guthrie wrote quite a few supportive songs about the fruit pickers, many of whom were Mexicans and Latinos.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 10:08 PM

Don - Actually, I don't recall any songs Woody wrote about illegal immigrants. Maybe you can point some out to us.

             I don't blame the people for coming either; I blame the US system of immigration and enforcement.

             I've never seen an illegal immigrant do a job a native born American wouldn't do. I've seen them do a lot of jobs cheaper. I doubt if Woody would think that was a good idea. I question where you get your facts.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 08:32 PM

Rig, I think your opposition to a public health option based on the idea that illegal immigrants will use it to the point of bankrupting it is a bit like looking at a hamster and yelling, "It's a rhinocerous!!"

Civilized countries like Great Britain, Japan, Taiwan, and Switzerland, the three countries T. R. Reid visited and analyzed in the Frontline documentary I mention in an above post, consider good health care to be a basic human right, which applies not only to their own citizens, but to someone who just blew in from Patagonia as well, and they have no problem with large numbers of tourists (some who come to their country specifically for that purpose) making use of their government-funded health care systems.

And their citizens spend a mere fraction of what Americans do for health care, whether it be through taxes or compulsory insurance coverage (which the government pays for if the individual can't afford it).

So be of good cheer. Your concern about illegal aliens bankrupting an American public health care system is baseless.

I cannot fault illegal aliens for coming here to try to eke out a better life for themselves and their families than they can manage in their own countries. If there is a fault, it is with the employers who hire them for a fraction of what they would have to pay an American worker—even though what the alien is being paid is often far more than what he or she could possible make at home.

Another consideration is that illegal aliens are often willing to do jobs that Americans, no matter how strapped, simply refuse to do. This I know for a fact!

I think Woody Guthrie wrote a few songs about that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 07:58 PM

I'm all for paying people and chimps alike a fair wage for the work they do. If that were happening, we wouldn't be having the problems we are experiencing now--at least not in this magnitude.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 10:31 AM

Actually, it was the influx of chimpanzees and gorillas from Africa back in the 20s and 30s who did that, Rig. The poor suckers were just bush apes and they got taken advantage of in a terrible way by unscrupulous bosses in America who had them working for 10 cents a day plus rejected bananas that weren't good enough to see out of the grocery stores. Shocking exploitation! What you really needed was a Bill of Rights with some teeth in it and then young chimps like Chongo would have been paid a decent wage, same as any other American resident ought to get.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Nov 09 - 07:24 AM

"Rig - Do you have a practical suggestion? Like a feasible way to chase 12 million sick birds back to Mexico? Without totally destroying the building trades and meat packing industry?"


          Get real, dick, it was the intruders who destroyed the building trades and the meat packing industry. Those jobs used to pay good money.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 06:06 PM

Now there ya go again, Dick - - - allowing logic to interfere with the thought process.......

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 06:01 PM

Why is it that all the congressman, and apparently, most of the voices protesting a public option seem to be getting their health care through just such a public option......and loving it? Medicare, VA, Federal government health plans etc.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:02 PM

PBS is re-airing a Frontline program it first ran on April 15, 2008, entitled "Sick Around the World." It examines the healthcare systems of other advanced democracies with the idea that they could provide the United States with ideas as to how to reform its healthcare system.

It airs tonight at 9:00 on KCTS Channel 9 in Seattle. Check you local listings

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 03:43 PM

Yeah, I know, Carol...it's always been a very expensive business hiring mercenaries. They charge more for the privilege of being immediately available...at the right price, of course. Their loyalty is suspect, because they will always serve the highest bidder.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 01:22 PM

(The innovations have been rather interesting, too... drinking vodka from each others arses being one of the more picturesque... )

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 01:19 PM

LH, to the extent that they have turned military functions over to private corporations (you know, "private contractors" like Haliburton and Blackwater), it has resulted in much higher costs for the taxpayers - by orders of magnitude.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 01:00 PM

Between Diana DeGette and Michael Bennet, I have been really proud of being from Colorado this week. Here's a reply from Bennet from a letter we sent him last night:

Let me begin by saying that I understand and respect the strong feelings on both sides of the abortion debate. The Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision is the law of the land, and I support preserving the right of a woman to choose whether to have an abortion. That said, I believe that we should work toward accomplishing goals that we all share, such as decreasing the number of abortions and promoting better options for struggling single mothers.

Access to reproductive health services is a vital component of our nation's overall health care system. Reproductive health services provide women with preventative primary care, safe and responsible family planning, and through screening and treatment, reduce the spread of sexually transmitted infections. We must work to protect and ensure that women have access to comprehensive health care – especially services that provide family planning assistance.

Under current law, the use of federal funds to perform or promote abortion is prohibited except in the cases of rape or incest, or when the mother's life is endangered. As the Senate continues to consider reform of our health care system, I will keep your thoughts in mind.

I value the input of fellow Coloradans in considering the wide variety of important issues and legislative initiatives that come before the Senate. I hope you will continue to inform me of your thoughts and concerns.

For more information about my priorities as a U.S. Senator, I invite you to visit my website at http://bennet.senate.gov/. Again, thank you for contacting me.


Sincerely,

Michael Bennet
United States Senator

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 12:54 PM

"Virtually everything they have run, runs inefficiently, is cost prohibitive, and turns to shit."

Hmmm. Well, I guess if you look at that great socialist organization, the American military, you could make that argument. ;-) They are, though, extremely efficient when it comes to killing people and smashing up cities and infrastructure. I don't think anyone can deny that. But are they cost prohibitive??? Yikes! Bloody right they are. Perhaps it is time to turn the USA armed forces over to a nice friendly profit-making capitalist management group, such as the CEOs of WalMart? (rolling my eyes)

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 12:44 PM

...however, having a government run program would be as efficient as a twelve pound yo-yo. Virtually everything they have run, runs inefficiently, is cost prohibitive, and turns to shit.

As others have pointed out, that is not true in all cases. We have a VA hospital here which is run very well and takes good care of our veterans and their families. In fact, I remember reading somewhere in all of these debates, that the VA health care service was very well run; a good model to emulate.

I am all for Kucinich and single payer, but what we are getting is a start, at least it is IF they keep in the public option and IF they do not take away a woman's right to choose. I cannot believe they have even a chance of doing so, but it appears they might. As I understand it, if the Stupak amendment stands, not only will women not be able to have public insurance cover abortions which it hasn't done for a long while now, anyway, but also any private insurance company which accepts even one penny of federal funds will no longer offer insurance to cover abortions because they would lose any federal funds, so a woman would be left without any coverage. One congressman had the gall to say women could always buy extra insurance on their own, as in some company might set up insurance for abortion-only coverage and sell it exclusively.

I'm thinking it's time it fricassee a few old, male balls or at least make them think we will. We fought long and hard for our rights...we cannot let a few old men take them away, again!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 12:35 PM

Well...there's always the Final Solution, right? (speaking satirically, you understand...)

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 11:45 AM

Rig-
Do you have a practical suggestion? Like a feasible way to chase 12 million sick birds back to Mexico? Without totally destroying the building trades and meat packing industry?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 10:08 AM

You can kill two birds with one stone.....take the bodies and mail them back to Mexico!!

See CarolC...innovation!


Yes? And how does your being innovative all on your own with no marketplace incentive relate to the idea of innovation in the business arena?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 07:25 AM

Maybe the Americans should have dealt with the Pilgrim Fathers along those lines...

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 03:49 AM

"Rig----if you recognize the existence of a large number of undocumented aliens... and you don't want to provide them with health care, how do you propose that we dispose of all the bodies?"

You can kill two birds with one stone.....take the bodies and mail them back to Mexico!!

See CarolC...innovation!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 01:51 AM

Ha! ;-) And I guess he doesn't drive on any public access roads and highways either. More socialism! And he must despise the armed forces, the police, the courts, the public schools, the public libraries and parks and utilities....egad! Socialism closing in from all directions!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 01:20 AM


"why are they considering cutting out Saturday delivery?"

They're doing it to piss you off, Doug! ;-)


He doesn't use the postal service. It's a socialist organization.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 11:55 PM

Published on Sunday, November 8, 2009 by the Huffington Post
Kucinich's Brave Health Vote Vs. Obama's Failed Promise
by Lee Stranahan

There were plenty of cowardly votes in the House last night but there was only one truly brave one. The unsung hero of the night was Ohio Representative Dennis Kucinich. Despite enormous pressure to support H.R. 3962, Rep. Kucinich did the right thing and voted 'no'. Unlike the Blue Dog votes against the bill, he did it for all the right reasons.

In a principled and practical statement, Rep. Kucinich said what a growing number of progressives have realized as we've watched real health care reform be compromised again and again.

During the debate, when the interests of insurance companies would have been effectively challenged, that challenge was turned back. The "robust public option" which would have offered a modicum of competition to a monopolistic industry was whittled down from an initial potential enrollment of 129 million Americans to 6 million. An amendment which would have protected the rights of states to pursue single-payer health care was stripped from the bill at the request of the Administration. Looking ahead, we cringe at the prospect of even greater favors for insurance companies.
Personally, I supported President Obama in the primaries and the election but do not support him on this corporate giveaway built on broken campaign promises. I voted for the Barack Obama who opposed the individual mandate, who said the negotiations would be televised on C-SPAN and who campaigned against backroom deals with PhARMA.

Conservatives have expressed outrage for months about the way the health care bill was handled. Their anti-government anger is misplaced because the lets the insurances and drug companies who really helped drive this bill off the hook. But I understand their sense that this bill was passed despite the people.

Progressives should be every bit as upset that President Obama lied to us to get his historic health bill. The citizens of this country did not have a seat at the table. Proponents of the Single Payer didn't have a seat at the table. Under the guise of health care reform, we watched as the insurance industry got a bill passed that entrenches and enriches them.

Don't let anyone fool you that this bill is a good start. It's got a poison pill "Public Option" that is designed to fail. As the brilliant RJ Eskow wrote recently about the House bill's public option,

The plan will have low enrollment and little power to negotiate, causing the CBO to state as fact what I've long considered possible: That the public option could become a dumping ground where private plans jettison sicker people, while lacking the efficiencies of scale or negotiating power to get better rates or administer itself more economically.
As a result, says the CBO, a public plan's premiums might be higher than private insurance. While the CBO's word isn't gospel, it's entirely possible that they're underestimating the cost of any "public option" we're likely to see this year. The likeliest political outcome, once the House and Senate bills are combined, is a non-robust "public option" with a state-by-state opt out. The CBO didn't consider the opt-out when it came up with its shocking (to some) estimate.

Even if it passes in its weak form, this Public Option will be the target of the GOP for years and they won't rest until it is dead. As the Public Option kicks into gear, they will find stories of 'rationing' and denial of care they can highlight, true or not. They will use the higher costs as proof of the Public Option's folly. They will grind away at the Public Option relentlessly but they will leave the Individual Mandate alone. If anything, once the Mandate is in place, the Republicans will make sure the insurance industry is 'free to compete' and unrestricted.

The corporate interests that spend millions to influence the media and both political parties want you to ignore Congressman Kucinich. Too many Democrats unwittingly help them. Don't be a patsy.

People like Dennis Kucinich, Ralph Nader and Michael Moore have been made pariahs by establishment Democrats. They have all been marginalized and made fun of...but check their records. They have been considered 'fringe' because they are telling us the truth about corporate abuses of power long before most of the rest of us catch up to the reality of what's happened.

If enough of us stand with Dennis Kucinich, maybe we'll actually get real health care reform. If we don't, maybe we don't deserve that reform.

© 2009 Huffington Post

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:37 PM

"Rig----if you recognize the existence of a large number of undocumented aliens... and you don't want to provide them with health care, how do you propose that we dispose of all the bodies?"

            Simple, Dick! You simply persuade them to go back where they came from before they become bodies. That way they can work for health care coverage in their own countries.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:15 PM

Ah, Jesus, Dick, leave the facts outa this, willya?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:23 PM

Of course, in the case of the Post Office, if you don't like the public option you're free to patronize the private sector. The way it would be with a public option for health care.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 06:53 PM

"why are they considering cutting out Saturday delivery?"

They're doing it to piss you off, Doug! ;-)