BS: US Health Care Reform

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 01:34 AM

Your grandmother is quite correct, Carol.

Meanwhile, here's the latest announcement from Dennis Kucinich:

Dear Friends,

A National Health Care for All Conference Call from Washington, DC, at 10 pm EDT, today, Thursday, September 10th at 1-800-230-1096.

Join us, so that we can discuss a new beginning for "Health Care For All" and ways in which we can all help. Pre-registration is necessary in order to reserve sufficient phone lines. Please RSVP here. When you call in and the operator asks, "what conference call?" tell the operator, "Health Care for All."

The President's health care policy speech was brilliant but when you get into the details another picture emerges. Unfortunately, at this point, the proposal outlined last night is the ultimate corporate giveaway. It's not health care, it's insurance care. As many as thirty million new customers for an insurance industry which makes money not providing health care. The only way this country will see true health is by investing in real health care. That is the essence of HR676, the single payer bill.

The President opened his speech speaking of how we have solved the economic crisis - how? By rewarding those who caused the crash! Is this the way we solve the health care crisis? Rewarding the insurance companies? Helping insurance and pharmaceutical stock to soar, propping up markets while skimping on health care? The very same system which caused the health care crisis is being rewarded with the guarantee of tens of millions of new customers mandated - by law - to have health care. The latest plan rewards the very companies that have denied treatment, denied care, denied drug coverage while their profits grow daily.

The only way this country will see true sustainable economic recovery is through investment in the real economy, priming the pump through job creation. The only way this country will see true health is by investing in real health care.

The "public option" has been relegated to insignificance. What we will now get is yet another "private option", not a public option, because single-payer is "off the table." We the people deserve better. We have been faced with general warfare in Iraq and Afghanistan - multi-trillion dollar ballouts for arms merchants, $12 trillion in bailouts for Wall Street, bailouts to coal and nuclear industries, and now proposed huge subsidies for the insurance and pharmaceutical industries. What's wrong with this picture? Everything!

Please join our national conference call tonight at 1-800-230-1096. Contribute to the start up. Join the movement. Sign the online petition. We must organize for the long term success of a state and national single payer movement. I need your help to initiate this action. If you believe, as I do, that we can and must begin a new long-term state-by-state grassroots effort to create a single-payer, not-for-profit health care system, please contribute now at Kucinich.us

Let us act now and initiate a Health Care for All action plan.

A National Health Care for All Conference Call from Washington, DC, at 10 pm EDT, Thursday, September 10th at 1-800-230-1096. Join us, so that we can discuss our new beginning and ways in which we can all help. Pre-registration is necessary in order to reserve sufficient phone lines. Please RSVP here. When you call in and the operator asks, "what conference call?" tell the operator, "Health Care for All."
Health Care Meet-Ups. A resource to organize people around the single payer option.
On-line petition. Please contact your lists, your family and friends. Please sign the petition for a single payer system. I will deliver the petitions directly to your Congressperson.
Petition to download, print and circulate among friends and neighbors - including an instruction sheet.
Tell A Friend. Every email forwarded will make a difference? Please use the "Forward Email" link below to circulate up to 5 emails at a time to your friends.
I need your help to initiate this action. If you believe, as I do, that we can and must begin a new long-term state-by-state grassroots effort to create a single-payer, not-for-profit health care system, please contribute now at Kucinich.us

Thank you.

Dennis Kucinich

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 12:39 AM

But how are all of Wilson's constituents going to be able to keep their estates looking nice down there in his district if their illegal gardeners get sick and can't afford to see the doctor?


JtS and I were talking with his mother on the phone this evening. She's lived all of her life in Newfoundland, and then Canada after Confederation. We were talking about all of the scare tactics the insurance industry shills use to scare people away from a system like they have in Canada; long waits, rationing of care, and making old people go without care so they can die early and not be a burden on the system.

She said, "That's bullshit! That's complete bullshit! What sort of idiot would believe such a thing!? I've never had to wait! I've received excellent care! I'm seventy years old, and I only pay $100 a year total for all of my medications! Canada has the best health care in the world! Who wouldn't want a system like ours? What idiots Americans are! The people who are saying those things have an agenda or they're crazy, and Americans are stupid for believing them!"

LOL

It was a great rant.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 11:26 PM

I am somewhat disappointed with the projected health care system that seems to be emerging. It looks to me like what we need is a horse, and what Obama, et al are coming up with is a six-legged camel with wings and its eyes on stalks. My only hope is that if it passes, it will actually get us where we need to go.

I am for single-payer government run health care system. Simple, straightforward, proven.

But one thing that Obama said in his speech was particularly germane to my situation:

"Under this plan, it will be against the law for insurance companies to deny you coverage because of a preexisting condition. As soon as I sign this bill, it will be against the law for insurance companies to drop your coverage when you get sick or water it down when you need it the most. They will no longer be able to place some arbitrary cap on the amount of coverage you can receive in a given year or in a lifetime. We will place a limit on how much you can be charged for out-of-pocket expenses, because in the United States of America, no one should go broke because they get sick. And insurance companies will be required to cover, with no extra charge, routine checkups and preventive care, like mammograms and colonoscopies -- -- because there's no reason we shouldn't be catching diseases like breast cancer and colon cancer before they get worse. That makes sense, it saves money, and it saves lives."

I have a scoliosis (spinal curvature) left over from polio when I was two years old. Because of this, I throw my back out easily and frequently. Reach for something and "POP!" The back goes out, and until I do something about it, it's like I have a railroad spike in my back. It can be quite painful and downright debilitating.

I have a chiropractor who makes house calls. Because this is a chonic thing, I need his services about every two weeks, and frequently more often than that. His office is only a few blocks from were I live. He takes a long lunch hour on which he goes jogging, and when I need his services, I call, and he jogs to my place in the early afternoon (with his English bulldog, Trevor), works me over (massage, adjustment), and leaves me all ship-shape—until it happens again.

I called his receptionist this morning to set up another appointment, and she informed me that my insurance company had informed her that I was good for one more adjustment, and that ended my coverage for the rest of the year. I have used up this year's allowance.

So, what does the insurance company expect me to do, take aspirin for the rest of the year? When they cover it, it leaves me with a $15.00 co-pay. I can pay full price, but it really cuts into the budget!

What is that but rationing, pray tell?

And my position is a bit precarious. Since I have had polio, what could the insurance company decide not to cover, invoking polio as a "pre-existing condition?"

####

As to the high price of health service in this country, the insurance companies are not the only culprits. There are two in particular that I can think of offhand.

1.   I'm not sure how many hospitals there are in the Seattle area, but there are several. And a couple of them, like Swedish, are BIG. A couple of campuses. There's University of Washington Medical Center (also big), Virginia Mason Hospital, Northwest Hospital, Pacific Medical Center, and a couple more in the immediate area, not to mention large clinics up the ziggy. Most of them have their own CAT scan and MRI machines. Competition. If one has an MRI scanner, the others have to have one too.

In some areas, and in many countries, such facilities are shared. One MRI in a given area with a number of hospitals. A patient from hospital A who needs a scan is sent to hospital B, who has the scanner. I've been told that there are more MRI scanners in the city of Seattle than there are in the entire country of Canada. And that's not because Canada is short of MRI scanners.

And all those scanners (pricy gadgets!) have to be paid for.

2.   Medical and orthopedic equipment is generally far more expensive than it needs to be. Talking to a technician from Care Medical who was working on my electric wheelchair one afternoon, I asked him why a standard, manual wheelchair is so much more expensive than, say, a decent bicycle, when, if you think about it, there is darn little difference between the component parts? Or why an electric wheelchair is so much more expensive than a golf cart, when there is little difference in technology and components between the two conveyances? Or why a pair of aluminum forearm crutches cost as much as they do?

He said, "It's because the manufacturers figure that they're going to be paid for by an insurance company, and people have to have them. So the manufacturer's jack up the price. By the way," he concluded, "you didn't hear that from me."

Don Firth

P. S. Rig, I, too, am concerned about illegal aliens bankrupting the country if a good national health system passes in the U. S. I live in Seattle, which is not that far from the Canadian border. I see great thundering herds of Mexicans running by my front windows in a constant stream, like migrating caribou, to illegally cross the Canadian border to get to Canada's national health service. I don't know how Canada's economy copes!

It's a worry that keeps me up nights!! Not to mention all those Mariachi bands. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 11:06 PM

"A WW 2 GI bill bred a whole generation of educated people who were quickly beaten down with the commie scare of Joe McCarthy. Reds pinkos liberals commies Jews, N'ers were put in their place as soon as Republicans got the white house back.

It worked then so they will run that play again, you can rely on it.

"The moment WW 2 was over in Britain the fisrt thing the people wanted and got was National HEalth care.

"It is taking a bit longer over here because the corporate mentality is more deeply ingrained." Donuel

Good god, Don. It appears to me that your thesis doesn't even get near the water, much less hold it. First you say that the GI bill "bred a whole generation of educated people" then you go on to say how quickly these same educated were "beaten down with the Commie scare, etc.

Question: What is the solution? I gather that education isn't it.
Speaking of presidents and "as soon as Republicans got the white house back." here is a list of the pertinent years:

# Franklin Delano Roosevelt 1933-1945
# Harry S Truman 1945-1953
# Dwight David Eisenhower 1953-1961
# John Fitzgerald Kennedy 1961-1963
# Lyndon Baines Johnson 1963-1969
# Richard Milhous Nixon 1969-1974
# Gerald Rudolph Ford 1974-1977

I fail to follow your reasoning.

Second Question: What are you implying about Britain?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 10:48 PM

Indeed, Donuel.

Barry, yes!! Have you seen the latest email from Kucinich? He and Weiner are both for single payer. I would prefer it, too, but I liked what I heard, for a start, last night.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 10:43 PM

Left Right Left Right Left Right Left Right Don't get out of step.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 10:24 PM

Right wing think tanks, Palin types, radio shock jocks and lobbyists have an uphill road to travel but are managing just fine in third gear.

They have to sell:

SUPPORT HIGHER INSURANCE RATES

STAND UP FOR DENYING HEALTH CARE Insurance TO PEOPLE WITH PRE EXISTING CONDITIONS.
THis shal include newborns.

DENY HEALTH INSURANCE TO PEOPLE WHO SUBSEQUENTLY GET SICK
this shall include newborns.

KILL COMPETITION IN THE FREE MARKET OF HEALTH INSURANCE-DOWN WITH THE GOVERMENT OPTION.

SAY YES TO THE REPUBLICAN HEALTH CARE PROGRAM
psst there isn't one. They're even against covering children and
you guessed it, newborns.




To get anyone other than very stupid or hateful fundamentalists people to agree is hard.


THE ANSWER IS TO MAKE MORE PEOPLE STUPID.


So... and here comes the punch line in this serious debate...



Help deny education benefits to those with pre existing IGNORANCE.









Don't for a minute believe that the dumbing of America is not and has not been a strategy for 40 years. College educated people are the biggest threat to conservative corporate regiemes.
A WW 2 GI bill bred a whole generation of educated people who were quickly beaten down with the commie scare of Joe McCarthy. Reds pinkos liberals commies Jews, N'ers were put in their place as soon as Republicans got the white house back.

It worked then so they will run that play again, you can rely on it.

The moment WW 2 was over in Britain the fisrt thing the people wanted and got was National HEalth care.

It is taking a bit longer over here because the corporate mentality is more deeply ingrained.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Peace
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 10:13 PM

"I wish the Commissioner luck."


I wish the American people luck.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Amergin
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 10:07 PM

Why don't we just euthanise people who get sick and can't pay for their treatment? It's what we do for pets....

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 09:42 PM

It's the enforcement mechanizms that the Democrats keep voting down, Art. It the percentage of illegal aliens continues to increase at the rate it has since 1986, by 2032 you'll have 140 million of them. Try paying for that!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 09:31 PM

Perhaps because they realized that the requirement was already there, and there was no point in putting it in twice? The requirement to verify eligibility is in the proposed law - HR 3200 says, in Sec. 241(b)(1), pg 130, that "the Commissioner shall establish a process whereby, on the basis of information otherwise available, individuals may be deemed to be affordable credit eligible individuals." Or maybe they simply realized that complete and accurate verification is impossible, and I wish the Commissioner luck.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 09:19 PM

Art,

When the Reps. on the committee tried to put in an amendment saying that citizenship ( or legal residency) be verified, it was voted down by the Dems. Why wopuld that be??

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 08:53 PM

Well - as my husband said as we watched th recording - isn't it wonderful to have the grownups back in charge. Barry - amen to every word you said.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 08:33 PM

About as much meaning as saying that illegal aliens can't pay taxes, can't pay into Social Security, can't spend money, can't get a driver's license or a bank account. If there is no way to enforce a rule - and there isn't - it means nothing. So why are you asking dumb questions that you already know the answer to? Is that a valid reason to continue to deny millions of people - citizens - medical care? Because a few illegals might slip in as well? Sorry, but I can't buy that.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 08:08 PM

"The bill simply forbids illegal aliens from accessing the program, as do many other bits of Federal law. "


And this does what with ILLEGAL aliens??? Isn't there presence here forbidden by Federal law?


So the comment that illegal aliens will not be covered has what meaning????????

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 08:05 PM

Yeah, Bill... I can hear the moanin' 'n peein' if the Dems go for some kinda National ID system... Now if it was the Repubs idea then all would be fine but if a Dem suggested it it would be Hitler this, Hitler that... Ya' know what, the Repubs are slowly but very surely marginializing themselves... And seem very proud to be doing it???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 07:53 PM

"...a National Identification Card "

HA! You think the right-wing-nuts are pissing & moaning NOW? Try to tell 'em they have to carry an ID card to get govt. help.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 07:48 PM

The idea that has been floated about abortions is that women could elect to *purchase* that option and that the premiums go into a pool to cover such procedures...

As for illegals getting benefits??? Yeah, there is so much fraud in our current systems that some folks are able to milk the system for awhile... I mean, even doctors are getting caught gaming the system... Not reforming a broken system because someone might scam it is some seriously flawed thinking... The plans that have been proposed do *not* provide benefits for illegals... That is a fact... Not a lie, as Congressman Wilson shouted out last night... Can the language be tightened up to prevent illegals from gaming the system??? Probably... Does this excuse Congressman Wilson's behavior??? No, it doesn't...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 07:38 PM

BB, there really is no way to make such a determination, so why add an unenforceable amendment? The bill simply forbids illegal aliens from accessing the program, as do many other bits of Federal law. The only enforcement mechanism is to kick somebody off it if they are subsequently found to be ineligible. Using an I-9 form and processing it, using E-verify, or any other method depending on Social Security numbers is a complete farce.   Anybody with a color printer can produce a Social Security card. Anybody with a stolen SSA card will get a positive result from e-verify.

Consider how much additional opposition this bill would have if it included provisions for a real way to determine identification - not that such a thing has any place in a health-care bill. However - IMHO - we need a National Identification Card as long as there are going to be benefits that derive from citizenship or other legal status.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 07:19 PM

And they're the only ones with enough money left after paying for the program to afford the children.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 06:44 PM

Art,
The point being made is that the Dems have NOT permitted any amendments that allow for the requirement that the status ( legal or illegal0 be determined when someone signs up. With no way to ask whether someone is legal, there is no reason to think illegals will NOT sign up for it.

I wonder why there have been no comments about Obama stating that "NOT ONE dollar of Federal money will be used for abortions"? If everyone HAS to be covered, and no Federal dollars are to be used for abortions, doesn't this mean that abortions will be limited to those who are rich enough to avoid the government plan(s)?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 06:31 PM

"Perhaps Rep. Wilson needs someone who can read to assist him."

    artbrooks needs help learning to read between the lines!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 06:26 PM

Azizi, your Cobra costs must be for just yourself. When my wife swiched jobs it took 2 months before her new benifits would kick in. For herself, her spouse (me) & for the 2 kids it was $1250.00 per month & the coverage sucked. No eye or dental that was all extra, co-pays went up & some meds that were tier 1 went to tier 2 & the tier 2's some went to tier 3's.
You were lucky to get away with that but still that's way to much & COBRA is there only as a temporary safety net??? Some safety net, it costs the most when you can least afford it or when you can't afford it & need it the most & it's temporary to boot, after it expires really you're fucked!

That wasn't a twitch. I see twitches all the time, my son's got Touretts & so didn't his grandfather. That weren't nothin' more than an ol shoo fly named Joe Wilson buzzing the echoes of the ghost of Strom Thurmond in the empthy hollows of his head. The talk show spinners can speak it & spin it in circles but Obama gave it the attention it so richly deserved & not recieving his call was completely apporpriate on Obama's part.

I believe, after being on medicare & an employer sponsered plan for a good few yrs that there's so much waste that it's unbelievable it's astronormical. The papers & forms I get is doubled & tripled, it's always, "your claim cannot be processed at this time please conntact your provider" who I then have to contact & explain what everything was for (this is explained in the billing process) I then have to get back to the provider of the care who's trying to get paid & have them contact the insurer, then they have to rebill after I sent back in a new form saying that my doctor authorized the treatment after I already had a pre-outhorizion sent from my Doc. Unbelievable, always a fight for coverage & nearly a full time job to stay healthy dispite them trying to kill me.
Saving the system would not only IMHO pay for the new reform it would also save on the enviorment, less trees, less human energy, less air pollution (tons of trucking mail & the postage)less useless jobs that produce carbon die.

"Not a dime from medicare", medicare & medicade would also prosper under the new bill, again the savings alone in waste cutting would be tremendous, steaming lining & trimming it, oh how I could go on.

I would love to see the reform take away the employers playing/paying a part in this but that doesn't seem to be, so be it.
As it stands, the unions are getting dumped on with the responsibility for heath care by the manufacturers & corporations. Someone has to carry the burden (why is it the unions who are always the ones to fight the losing battles?). They (manuf, & corps) know what a nightmare & burden it is & they'd rather shift that burder over to the unions whereas if the government took it on as they do in all other democratic & advanced nations it wouldn't be such a nightmare & it would be a fare share for everyone. (and the auto & steel industries might once again have a fighting chance to survive).

To listen to Obama talk was first & foremost a sweet pleasure after the years of double-talking confusion, words that couldn't be found in any dictionary, redundant remarks. His speech was plain & clear, the man's very articulate, doesn't mince words, makes his ideas known. I'm proud when he speaks to thenot just the nation but to the world. The world listens to him & they're not laughting this time, they're respecting what the man has to offer, weither or not they agree. That's not happened in quite a while.

I loved his speach again for his attempts to bring this reform in under a whole, united congress. He reaches across without begruging or trying to humble, he makes it clear who's job it is & who he's relying on to get the jpob done & he let us the people know here he stands & who standing with him & who's fucked it up without putting the knife in & twisting it it. He's very much "a matter of fact" man & he wiling to put the facts out there & show them for what they are,,,as well as the lies "Joe".

Did anyone catch Michelle reaching over & holding the hand of Teddy's teary eyed widow in support, while Vicky was choking back her tears? Cause this is the unfinished work of his (Teddy's) life long dream, the same health care that congress has, available to every John Q Public that lives in America. That says more for how the first family works in the human community.

I love this man!!! IMHO we have never had better and the sooner his opposition realizes it & lets him get on with "our business" the better, either that or let them get out f the way so he can do his job.

We now stand a etter chance than a snowball in hell or getting back what's been lost over the past 30 odd years. Obama is our chance to regain world respect, he's our ticket to much needed health care reform, educational reform (hopefully his next "big", actually ongoing issue), he's already proved his mettle in handling of the financial mess we're in (I've been looking at the public & government bids lately for the New England area on construction projects & the amount of road, bridges, schools, bases-anything that get public, state or federal money is astonishing in the jobs & money it's generating). We are far better off at the moment than we could have possibility have ever hoped for had someone else, anyone else, been in office right now. And we could even be further down the road if the "Begruding Right" would stop with the constant, needless roadblocks.

He does need to end the wars, that's my only gripe, well that & he needs to be a bit more of an extreme left wing radical, well more than a bit but if he were imagine the roadblocks then, he get nothing done.


Barry

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 06:23 PM

Different take on Joe Wilson's ill-timed remark:

After a month a very bad behavior on the Repubs part (that they weren't called for down for) I think that the reaction to Rep. Wilson's behavior says more about how the country has had just about enough of Republican uncivility...

Wilson did more to push health care reform along than anyone knows...

That's the way I see it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 06:10 PM

This is becoming a pattern, innit? Joe, the Wilson, will go down in history.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 06:02 PM

Are you sure he didn't call out "I'm a liar"?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 05:54 PM

People in South Carolina have more problems with space aliens.

And the rest of the country is probably tired of supporting South Carolina.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 05:26 PM

The health care legislation currently before Congress bans payments to illegal aliens.   Perhaps Rep. Wilson needs someone who can read to assist him.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: curmudgeon
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 05:24 PM

"Joe Wilson probably re-assured his re-election."

Since he shot his mouth off, his Congressional opponent has taken in over $400,000 in campaign contributions.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 04:57 PM

"Yes, but re-election to where?"

          Congress! People in South Carolina are tired of supporting illegal aliens.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 04:56 PM

if I were a betting person, I'd bet you that Joe Wilson will be gone from Congress in 2010.

Something tells me that lots of folks will be working toward that end. According to this article http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090910/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_heckling "The reaction to Wilson's outburst, nevertheless, was punishing — even without the specter of official House action.

His Web site crashed, he took a beating on Twitter as Republicans and Democrats alike condemned his behavior...

[And] ..."the uproar turned into a boon for Democrat Rob Miller, his opponent in next year's midterm elections.

In the first 24 hours after Wilson's outburst, Miller's campaign coffers swelled by $200,000, according to Jessica Santillo of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. The contribution, she said, came in from 5,000 individual contributions."

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 04:52 PM

Rig-

Yes, but re-election to where?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 04:32 PM

In any event, Joe Wilson probably re-assured his re-election.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 02:56 PM

We are in an asylum.

Well, aren't we?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Amos
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 02:16 PM

THa tis a crackup, isn't it? Of course, in real life, such neurotic leaps of associative thought only occur in the asylums. Don't they?

Well?   Don't they?

...

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 02:09 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 02:01 PM

Check out this dailykos diary:

Probable beltway evolution of Wilson's "You Lie"

by wilbur
Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 10:20:48 AM PDT

**

It had me goin there for a minute.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 01:31 PM

I didn't see any apology from all of the other Republicans who were booing and shouting during Obama's speech last night. Nor did anyone ask for one. And I would suggest that's because everyone sees a big difference between the kind of collective booing and shouting that the Democrats did in 2005 and the Republicans did last night, and someone shouting out "you lie" to the president while he is giving a speech to the Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Amos
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 01:28 PM

Having looked at both videos, I have to say the murmur of disagreement that met Bush's exagerrated claims about SS were considerably more civil than the general blather of naysayers hollering at Obama.


A

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 01:27 PM

I also co-sign what CarolC wrote.

You tell'em Carol!

:o)

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 01:27 PM

" in a Presidential address to Congress"

State of the Union address IS a Presidential address to Congress.


Unlike the Dems in 2005, there was an apology, this time.


Sins:

"I can't help but wonder if the "You lie!" shout would have happened if Obama were white.
Respect the office if not the man. What a disgrace"


So, what do you think about the DEMS in 2005, with a white President? Is THAT ok?????

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 01:21 PM

beardedbruce, note that I wrote "I don't think this has ever happened before in a Presidential address to Congress".

But as for the example you gave, I co-sign what katlaughing wrote in her 10 Sep 09 - 01:12 post to this thread: "Booing Bush, en masse, is a bit different from one voice yelling out "you lie" and, also has historical precedent, I dare say".

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 01:18 PM

I just heard that part of the speech again (the heckling part). Other people on the Republican side are booing and shouting as well (just before the shout that people are criticizing), but nobody is criticizing that booing and shouting. I think everyone sees a big difference between what the rest of the Republicans were doing and what Wilson did. I notice that Wilson also shouted "you lie" while the rest of the Republicans were booing, but that shout got drowned out. I'm guessing he shouted it a second time expecting the others to be booing at the same time and he just got left high and dry. LOL

He's still an asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 01:12 PM

Well he did say there is a lot of waste spending etc. in Medicare and Medicaid and that is where the money would come from; NOT get rid of them or take away benefits, just tighten up the ship, so to speak.

Booing Bush, en masse, is a bit different from one voice yelling out "you lie" and, also has historical precedent, I dare say.

I kept getting a visual in my head of the scales of justice...weighed down the most with the amount he said we've spent on Iraq and Afghanistan with the lighter side being what he says health care reform will cost. THEN, I reversed the image..better perspective and something I believe can happen.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 12:53 PM

Ah, Jeeze! There ya go, Carol, polluting the discussion with logic & factual information. Shame on you.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 12:50 PM

Bush told one bald-faced lie after another as did Clinton but no one ever shouted "You Lie" from the floor.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 12:47 PM

He said not one dime would come out of the medicare trust fund. It sounds to me like there's a distinction between the medicare trust fund, and whatever money he said would help pay for his plan.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 12:42 PM

Joe Wilson doesn't think much at all. Check his record.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 12:33 PM

Well, Sinsull, I suspect Joe Wilson really thought he was lying--I did too. But he should have kept his mouth shut.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 12:16 PM

I can't help but wonder if the "You lie!" shout would have happened if Obama were white.
Respect the office if not the man. What a disgrace.