 sj |
||
|
||
BS: US Health Care Reform
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 20 Dec 09 - 04:53 PM Cost of what? If they put limits on what the insurance companies can charge, how is that not "doing something to control cost"? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Dec 09 - 04:47 PM Still, they haven't done anything to control cost! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 20 Dec 09 - 03:40 PM I've already addressed that concern. The Senate bill puts limits on what insurance companies can charge everyone, and in particular, what they can charge people with pre-existing conditions. Short of a public option or single payer not for profit, that's the best we can possibly get (along with the subsidies and insurance exchanges). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: DougR Date: 20 Dec 09 - 03:35 PM My concern as it regards to folks with pre-conditions, is the insurance may be available, but the cost may be too high for many of them to afford, even with subsidies, etc. We will just have to wait to see what the actual bill looks like when it comes out of conference. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 20 Dec 09 - 02:47 PM One final word on that - if I have to wait until 2014 to get health care, that still is way better for me than the situation I am in right now, which is that if nothing changes, I will have to wait until 2021 until I can get access to health care. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 20 Dec 09 - 02:44 PM DougR, I have no problem with the bill being improved in conference. But it can't go to conference until after it's been passed in the Senate. And I am aware that for adults, the bill doesn't go into effect until 2014, but as I said to Bobert, it will kick in immediately for children. Children are dying now from lack of access to medical care. That needs to be changed as soon as possible. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 20 Dec 09 - 02:41 PM Bobert, every day that the bill is delayed significantly reduces the chances of anything getting passed at all. That's the hurry. And even though the bill doesn't go into effect until 2014 for adults, it will kick in immediately for children. That's not anything to sneeze at. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 20 Dec 09 - 02:39 PM The problem for people with pre-existing conditions (which includes age) is that the insurance companies charge much, much higher premiums for such people than for everyone else. What makes this bill better for those of us in this situation is that the bill will not allow them to do that any longer. That's why I'm not against the bill, even though it requires most people to buy insurance. The other part that encourages me is that there is a hardship exemption for people who can't afford what the insurance companies are charging. So with the combination of subsidies, hardship exemptions and limits in what insurance companies can charge, I feel that I can support the bill in the absence of a public option or single payer not for profit. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: DougR Date: 20 Dec 09 - 01:57 PM Carol C: Your statement to Bobert, "The hurry is that people are dying and several months won't guarantee a better bill at all." I assume you are aware that if the final bill is passed, the benefits won't be in effect for four more years, right? Think the Democrats can declare a moratorium on dying for four years? I think it is possible that the Democrats themselves my defeat the bill in conference and if so, maybe there can be a greater effort to get a better bi-partisan one. Those of you who hate the private insurance companies should shed no crocodile tears for that industry. When the stock market closed Friday, after the news that 50 votes were attainable, stock in insurance companies closed higher than ever. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Bobert Date: 20 Dec 09 - 01:55 PM Ya' know, Carol, this reform won't even go into effect until 1014 so I repeat, "What's the big hurry"... I mean, isn't it more important to get it right seein' that it's not going to be here for a long time to come??? The same number of people are going to die either way... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Don Firth Date: 20 Dec 09 - 01:48 PM Please pardon this poor uneducated peasant's ignorance (bowing obsequiously and tugging forelock), but could someone please explain this to me: If a whole bunch of people (47 million, wasn't it?) can't afford health insurance, how will Congress passing a law saying they must buy health insurance enable them to afford it? A really dumb question, I know, but. . . . Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: michaelr Date: 20 Dec 09 - 01:09 PM Carol said: "I think anyone who is quibbling about all of that stuff at this point probably already has insurance. For those of us who don't have any, this bill is a real improvement, and very much needed. For them, it's theoretical. For us, it's a matter of life and death." I don't get this. You will be forced to buy insurance from the big companies. If you wanted that, couldn't you have done it all along? It's not "quibbling" to oppose a multi-billion dollar giveaway to huge corporations in favor of real reform. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Bill D Date: 20 Dec 09 - 10:25 AM There's still the conference committee to 'maybe' put some more stuff back in it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 20 Dec 09 - 09:53 AM The hurry is that people are dying, Bobert, and several more months won't guarantee a better bill, or any bill at all. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Bobert Date: 20 Dec 09 - 09:50 AM BTW, I'm gettin' just a little sick and tired of smalled populated states gettin' larger and larger chuncks of federal tax dollars just because they also have 2 Senators... Ben Nelson, who held a gun to Harry Reid's head over this bill, brought home the pork for Nebraska in that after 2016 the federal governement (my taxes) would pay Nebraska's share of Medicaid for folks under 133% of poverty line... No other state got this except, you guessed it, Ben Nelson's... I find it very sad that Nelson said that one of his two reasons for opposing the bill was that it was going to cost the federal governemnt too much money but then came on board after the federal governemnt agreed to spend even more to satisfy Nelson??? I mean, what hypocrisy!!! Anyway, this so-called reform bill by the Seante is nowhere near law as it now must be reconciled with the House bill and I, for one, wouldn't mind seein' it take several more months if it means that it will take only 51 votes and is a good bill... I mean, what's the hurry??? The Repubs have been pushed to the side anyway and now it's up to the Dems to make it right... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 20 Dec 09 - 09:48 AM I think anyone who is quibbling about all of that stuff at this point probably already has insurance. For those of us who don't have any, this bill is a real improvement, and very much needed. For them, it's theoretical. For us, it's a matter of life and death. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Bobert Date: 20 Dec 09 - 09:12 AM GfS and Steve, Yeah, that is my biggest problem with the Senate version and why, like Howard Dean, I am opposed to it... If you are going to mandade participation I don't want the corporations to profit from the mandate... No public option then no mandate... Can't have one without the other... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Suffet Date: 20 Dec 09 - 08:00 AM Carol is right that some good provisions remain in the Senate version of the health care bill. But the bottom line is that the private insurance companies are being handed 40 million new clients with only a minimum of regulation and with no competition. That is exactly what they wanted from the beginning. We knew that at least 38 of the Republicans in the Senate would roll over for them, and now it's certain that all 40 will. So it was up to the 60 members of the Democratic Caucus alone to honor the mandate the American people gave them in 2008. Instead they squandered it. Whether the bill passes or not, the American people are by and large screwed big time. --- Steve |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 20 Dec 09 - 02:14 AM No, the insurance companies will not be allowed to jack up their prices under the Senate bill (after the bill is passed), and they will have to pay a penalty if they jack them up before the bill is passed. That's one of the things I like about the bill. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Bill D Date: 19 Dec 09 - 10:29 PM They are about to pass it It must still have something good in it, Mitch McConnell is livid. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 19 Dec 09 - 08:26 PM Bobert:". There are alot of good things but there are some very, very bad things like requiring everyone to buy health insurance from private comapnies... That scares the heck out of me... If it were public it would only half scare the heck out of me........" NO WONDER THE INSURANCE COMPANIES WERE LOBBYING FOR IT!!..JEEZ!...MAKE PEOPLE HAVE TO GET INSURANCE....CHOOSE BETWEEN SHITTY GOVERNMENT INSURANCE, OR BUY REAL HEALTH CARE, AT INFLATED PRICES!!!! Thanks, Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:50 PM They're not going to trash Medicare. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Bobert Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:48 PM Ya' know, anyone who doesn't know what is in these bills by now just ain't payin' attention... There are alot of good things but there are some very, very bad things like requiring everyone to buy health insurance from private comapnies... That scares the heck out of me... If it were public it would only half scare the heck out of me... But for folk to say they are clueless only is an admission that they haven't been paying much attention... Or listenin' way to much to Mitch McConnell... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:32 PM They only know how much it's going to cost if they trash Medicare to make it happen. If they don't trash Medicare it will cost a whole lot more. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:12 PM That's not true. A lot of people know what's in it and how much it's going to cost. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:21 PM GREAT!!! Let's all get behind this bill, and route for the passage, of this thing....that nobody knows whats in it, or how much it will really cost.....Yay, go for it...(pump pump) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:10 PM I'm listening to Obama describe the bills before the House and Senate, and they both sound promising. There are controls on insurance companies that could be a big help for me and JtS. If they succeed in doing what Obama has described, it won't be as good as single payer not for profit, but it will definitely be a big improvement. Looks like Nelson's going to vote for cloture. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/34491149#34490903 |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 19 Dec 09 - 01:16 PM BTW, what we have is a kleptocratic corporatist democracy. Which is a pretty corrupt form of democracy, which really is not so much of a democracy in the final analysis. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Bobert Date: 19 Dec 09 - 01:15 PM I agree with michaelr... Obama gets much of the blame here... If he doesn't roll up his sleeves and do some of the heavy liftin' he ain't gonna get anything important thru this Congress... Plus, the Dem really need to explore the "nuclear option"... I think it's time for the Senate to become something other than the place where solutions go to die... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 19 Dec 09 - 01:13 PM I don't disagree that the Democratic leadership has failed in this case. But I just think it's a very big mistake to only blame the Democrats and let the Republicans completely off the hook, which is what a lot of people (mostly Republicans) are trying to do. It's more the fault of the Republicans than the Democrats, but the Democratic leadership could certainly have done a better job. I'm not defending the Democrats because I have any particular love for them generally (although I am a big supporter of one Democrat - Kucinich), but we can't let the Republicans succeed in making the Democrats look like they're worse on the issue of health care reform than the Republicans, because they're not. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Suffet Date: 19 Dec 09 - 12:54 PM "There is no such thing as democracy in the USA. Corporate greed runs the whole show. Some people still refuse to see it, despite all the available evidence." What we have in the USA, and in the Western world in general, is capitalist democracy. Corporate greed runs the whole show worldwide, because capitalism is an economic system of organized global greed. And the Democratic Party, as a group, is simply a part of it. But I don't see any alternative. The Socialist and Social Democratic parties of the West have long ago given up on socialism. The Marxist-Leninist parties, when and where they have wielded power, have combined the worst elements of all systems, first creating brutal dictatorships and then adopting a grotesque form of state capitalism. And the anarchists are lost in a primitivist fantasy of a decentralized world run by direct democracy, neighborhood councils, organic food coops, and everyone being nice to everyone else. No wonder the only serious opposition to capitalist imperialism comes from the reactionary Islamic fundamentalists. Capitalism have spent the past 161 years isolating, intimidating, decimating, marginalizing, and sometimes co-opting the Left -- and they have succeeded. --- Steve |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: michaelr Date: 19 Dec 09 - 12:28 PM Yes, and we can blame Obama for not pushing harder on what he claims is his top priority. It's clear that the job of Congress has become to maintain the illusion of democracy by going through the motions, posturing and speechifying, while getting nothing done that would threaten the status quo. There is no such thing as democracy in the USA. Corporate greed runs the whole show. Some people still refuse to see it, despite all the available evidence. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Bill D Date: 19 Dec 09 - 12:24 PM "...he is a full fledged Democrat." HA!... Nelson? A wolf in sheep's clothing is more like it. You guys are just proving my point....and the POINT is to strew the sea with mines , then accuse the Democrats of not sailing the ship carefully. I see the mantra of "gee, you have 60 in your caucus, why can't you DO something?" is alive & well, no matter how idiotic that slogan is in these circumstances. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Suffet Date: 19 Dec 09 - 10:25 AM Carol is right that we cannot blame all the Democrats the same way we can blame all the Republicans. But we can blame the Democratic Party as a party for its lack of effective leadership, for its failure to get its ducks in a row, and for its complete mishandling of this issue. The voters gave them a mandate and they blew it. Now, thanks to the Democratic Party, we risk having a health care bill that's less than zero, one which hands the private insurance companies 40 million new customers to gouge without any competition, without any price controls, and with little or no regulation. But what about this should surprise anyone? The Democratic and Republican parties are two sides of the same coin. They are both the parties of capitalism, and despite their non-ending dog and pony show, they serve exactly the same class interests. When push came to shove in the fall of 2008, it was a bipartisan lovefest as they voted together to use our money to bail out the very corporations that got us into the mess. --- Steve |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 19 Dec 09 - 09:45 AM Yes, but he's only ONE Democrat. The majority of Democrats still support the public option, while ALL Republicans want to kill it. Let me run those numbers by you once again... if you can blame all of the Democrats for what a very small handful of them are doing, then I can blame you for all of the rapes that are committed by men. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Dec 09 - 09:37 AM But now it's that guy who looks like Deputey Dog--what's his name--Nelson who's stopping the bill from moving forward, and he is a full fledged Democrat. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 19 Dec 09 - 09:15 AM But it's not enough if one of the Independents and a small handful of the Democrats don't vote for cloture. You can't blame all of the Democrats for what a very small number of them are doing. As I said before, that would be like blaming you for all of the men who beat their wives. It just doesn't work that way. But you can blame all of the Republicans for what all of the Republicans are doing. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Suffet Date: 19 Dec 09 - 08:49 AM The Democratic Caucus in the Senate has 60 members, including two elected as independents. That's enough to break any filibuster and ram through any bill they can come to an agreement upon. We already know where the Republicans stand, and they will do anything possible to thwart both the Democrat in the White House and their own Democratic colleagues on the Hill. Playing nice with them all summer while they sent their thugs to break up Democrats' town hall meetings was a first class mistake. Meanwhile, the Attorney-General sat on his hands instead of convening a Federal grand jury to bring some indictments under the Patriot Act or under the so-called "Rap Brown Law" that makes inciting a riot a Federal crime. So the Democrats, and the Democrats alone, are to blame for this fiasco. The American public gave them the mandate a year ago and they blew it with their own weak-kneed leadership. My song tells it like it is. --- Steve |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 19 Dec 09 - 01:02 AM The majority of Democrats are trying to get a public option included in the Senate health care bill. All of the Republicans are trying to prevent a public option from being included in the Senate health care bill, and yet, the Democrats are being blamed for there not being a public option in the bill. Obviously, "the Democrats" can't get a public option included in the bill without Republican help. If they could, they would have already done it. Since most of the Democrats support the public option, and none of the Republicans do, as I said before, the Republicans are far more responsible for the lack of a public option in the Senate bill than the Democrats. Whenever a Republican bill fails in Congress due to lack of support from the Democrats, the Republicans don't blame themselves for its failure. They always blame the Democrats, saying that the failure was due to partisan voting on the part of the Democrats. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: DougR Date: 19 Dec 09 - 12:07 AM Uh, are we veering a bit off subject? DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Bill D Date: 18 Dec 09 - 11:24 PM *tsk*, Steve... that's painting with a pretty broad brush... 40-50 of them have tried everything short of physical threats to get something decent. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Suffet Date: 18 Dec 09 - 11:13 PM THE DEMOCRATS' FLAG Tune: The Workers' Flag (O Tannenbaum) New words (in part) by Steve Suffet The Democrats' flag is purest white, It means they don't intend to fight. Who cares what the people say? Insurance companies pay their way. They raise their snowy banner high, And let their health care program die. Republicans can't stop their bill, But Democrats in the Senate will. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Bill D Date: 18 Dec 09 - 10:26 PM Thanks, Don... that was a few more than one... but *grin* Bruce! "They caucus with the Dems- AND ARE NOT REPUBLICANS." Yes... and "The EARTH REVOLVES AROUND THE SUN" I despair when you persist in shouting some technical, irrelevant 'fact' as if you'll win something if you keep proclaiming it. Nelson and Lieberman, NO MATTER WHAT THEIR OFFICIAL DESIGNATION, are part of the 60 needed. Nelson has been more a Republican than a Democrat for years! Some suspect that he ran as a Democrat in order to observe and derail Democratic plans from within. Nebraska has only voted Democratic once in 50-60 years, and Nelson was not only a classic **conservative**, he was also and insurance executive! Some credentials for pretending to honestly help regulate health care.... Lieberman? The senator from Aetna? He is now beyond slimy and heading for despicable... At least Senator Arlen Specter had the decency to officially change parties when he found the one he was in no longer suited him. Please...do not shout any more trivial 'facts' at me as if I can't read and do simple math. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Riginslinger Date: 18 Dec 09 - 10:11 PM Well, President Eisenhower did warn the American public about the Industrial-Military-Complex. Who was bankrolling Joseph McCarthy? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Don Firth Date: 18 Dec 09 - 09:59 PM A short list of some of the better known people whom Senator McCarthy accused: (I specifically remember his accusing Chaplin, because I was in my early twenties at the time. McCarthy was the chairman of the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, and, as I understand it, the House Un-American Activities Committee was under the Permanent Subcommittee on Investicatons. McCarthy took special interest in HUAC). Nelson Algren, writer[This is not an exhaustive list by any means. McCarthy even voiced suspicions about the loyalty of President Dwight D. Eisenhower (Five-Star General [ret.]) Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: GUEST,beardedbruce Date: 18 Dec 09 - 07:16 PM Show me where Senator McCarthy accused him. I think that was the House Committee- McCarthy was a Senator. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 18 Dec 09 - 06:54 PM ""BTW, name one person accused by Joseph McCarthy who was NOT found to be a Soviet spy, once the Soviet data was released."" CHARLIE CHAPLIN? Don T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: GUEST,beardedbruce Date: 18 Dec 09 - 06:13 PM "60 is no magic number when Nelson & Lieberman are part of that count." They caucus with the Dems- AND ARE NOT REPUBLICANS. BTW, name one person accused by Joseph McCarthy who was NOT found to be a Soviet spy, once the Soviet data was released. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Bill D Date: 18 Dec 09 - 05:49 PM "And how do WE know..." etc.. because,as I said, many Republicans are on record (and on video) saying the things I mention. There IS no doubt...and cleverer folks than I are making the point every day. "...when WE point out that the DEMOCRATS could pass it WITHOUT the Republicans" and you STILL ignore what I said above. 60 is no magic number when Nelson & Lieberman are part of that count. I could point out some 'theoretical' possibilities involving satellite tracking or astronomy observations that you could no doubt explain the practical silliness of. Republicans (read:'conservatives'), even as a minority STILL have legislative tricks and more importantly, propaganda & advertising scare tactics (read: lying) to influence matters. Joseph McCarthy was just ahead of his time. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Bobert Date: 18 Dec 09 - 05:26 PM Let me just pick off 1200 fir now... |
