BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms

Subject: BS: rish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: skarpi
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 06:50 AM

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6845000.ece

Well Ireland , Lissabon treat = yes or no ???

Mr Barroso also used his visit to dispense reminders of a bankrupt Iceland, where "people went to the ATM machine and there was no money".

this is just not true , the Icelandic newspapers
have been checkin this out and there is no truth in his words .
he is just saying , if you dont vote for it , we will .............

but vote from your heart not from what I say or anybody else .
get all knowledge about the treat and then vote from your heart .

dont think about what is goin on here in Iceland , the IMF is
burning Iceland down , just like in any country they but their
foot on , they must be stopped . the IMF are only tools of the
big countrys like UK ; USA and eroupe EU .

50 thousands home are ruin , bankrupt .....
IMF rules the coverment , they are gonna get us a higher tax
the foot price is up , no work , the benefitsfound is empty
and there is no common sence in what the IMF are doin here , everthing is goin to stopp here , 65 % of all firms in Iceland
are bankrupt or are in a few weeks goin down , becouse there
is nothing goin on , Iceland has been put into the frost .

This is all political plots , nothing else .

dont loose your independence, your freedom , fight for it
I dont know what will happen here , but there are dark clouds
in the air .... the autumnn could go red...................


but this is the dark side , the other side the white one well
its not far away ...... at least in my mind ......

like they say in the good book AnamCara

" we are always on a journey from darkness into the light "

well good luck , all the best Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: BS: rish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 08:23 AM

Just vote the same as you did the last time, and limit EEC bureaucracy.
Unless of course, you want to become a satellite of Brussels.

JM

Subject: RE: BS: rish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Lox
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 08:34 AM

I suspect it will be significantly different this time.

1. Ireland suffered badly in the credit crunch and has lost some of its arrogance and realized how much they have to thank europe for over the last 15 years.

2. This time the YES campaign won't be taking it for granted. Last time round there was practically only one campaign and that was for NO - surprisingly the NO's got the vote.


And a good thing too. All this crap about being ruled from brussels, as if it means that the Irish are giving power away to foreigners, is a load of jingoistic claptrap.


Before the EU, europeans went to war with each other.

It is the antidote to european nationalism which does nthing but cause strife and misery.

It ain't perfect but its a lot better than what existed before.

"but we want to keep the pound" it makes no difference practically except to make brits pay through the nose for foreign exchange.

"its about our sovereignty"

no it isn't - its about dislike of europeans. Get over it - this generation has no interest in that kind of nationalist claptrap.

Subject: RE: BS: rish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Emma B
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:36 AM

Irish Finance Minister Brian Lenihan insists that goodwill from Europe is vital for small nations.

He said the Lisbon Treaty was vital for a country like Ireland as it gave the protection of rules and the cover of institutions like the European Commission and the ECB.

"That is why the Lisbon Treaty is very good for Ireland, because the best protection for the smaller states is a treaty founded in the rule of law, because otherwise you have the rule of the jungle with larger states asserting their muscle to the detriment and disadvantage of smaller states,"

view from The Independent Ireland today

Subject: RE: BS: rish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:03 AM

You're right, it's not about sovereignty, it's about protecting the few assets we have left.
Scotland is responsible for 70% of the fishing which is allocated to members of the EEC, yet it has no say over these allocations.
Our fishermenm are going out of business daily, while Spanish, and others, catch right up to our shores, and send the fish directly abroad by road. The lorries which carry them arrive here with full fuel tanks, and almost never buy fuel at our inflated prices, so Scotland derives a nil benefit from these activities.
The UK heavy industries have been decimated through the activities of this hydra in Brussels, and all the money we have received in grants etc from there, wouldn't pay for half of the assets we have lost.
Where is our quid pro quo?

JM

Subject: RE: BS: rish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Rog Peek
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:31 AM

I agree with John.

As far as I can see, a good rule of thumb is: if the politions tell you it's good for you, the chances are it isn't. What they actually mean is it's good for them and their cronies. I recall Micky Duff once saying "If a politician had an honest though in their head, it would die of loneliness."

Do us a favour Ireland, and sink it for good and all.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: rish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Rog Peek
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:34 AM

For anyone who's not heard of
Mickey Duff

Subject: RE: BS: rish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: skarpi
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:35 AM

never ever vote for EU .

kv Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: rish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 04:04 PM

I agree with JOHN MACKENZIE,vote no.
the irish or those that are living in the republic,but not those living in Ulster,have already said NO.
why do we need to vote again,the majority said no,so the eu didnt like the answer,so we have to vote again.
we are in the EU now,UNEMPLOYMENT IN ireland is already very high,and the EU AND THE YES CAMPAIGN ARE TRYING TO FRIGHTEN VOTERS INTO SAYING YES.
They can get on their bikes,I shall be voting for sinn fein at the next election,and if I was allowed to vote,I would vote NO.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 05:08 AM

There are ups and downs to the EU.

A unified currency is a major problem, IMHO, in that it takes major aspects of control over local economic conditions out of the hands of local governments.

Similarly unified border control.

And of course there is "straight cucumber" regulation - and the farcical situation about drainage appliances that has meant that the intrinsically failworthy French "clapet" lavatory cisterns are now permitted in the UK as well as the vastly superior and failsafe siphonic system - so resulting in millions of gallons of fresh water running to waste annually.

And some of the overzealous safety regulations have left for example car finishes and upholstry glues less reliable and durable than they were 50 years ago.

On the other hand, things like antidiscrimination law and the Working Time Directives represent huge advances for the working person.

But the freedom of movement of capital and some aspects of the freedom to provide services have led to profiteering by capital and the oppression of the workers.

I don't think I'd entirely kick it out, but I would restrict some of the powers of the central cabal. And I'd dismantle the entire system of EU law and start again with a proper system of precedent and judicial logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 05:55 AM

Ireland has been very significantly, a major beneficiary of European funds since their accession to the EEC in 1973

Receipts from the EU budget during that period amount to a staggering €60 billion in total, or 3.3% of the GDP.
Literally billions of euros have been received in structural funds which - any regular visitor to the country like myself will observe -have built roads all over the country, stimulating further growth.
It is estimated that over a million jobs have been created since 1973
While some politicians have expressed frustrations, dealing with the bureaucracy and strict requirements of the EU system, overall it is agreed that membership has benefited the country immensely and without it the 'Celtic Tiger' could not have happened.

As Richard said there have been some 'decisions' that have been continually mocked in the press like the bendy banana Euromyths that attempt to portray the EU as 'beauracy gone mad'
EU scare stories appear on a regular basis, but the majority turn out not to be true.
The commission has even has an EU snopes-like website to refuting the stories.

There was one recently where it said the European Commission was going to standardise the size of condoms and it was argued they wouldn't be big enough for British assets :)

As one MEP for Wales said

"But it's just titillation fuelled by newspapers. Most of the Euromyths are either pure imagination or massive exaggeration. They're spread to make the EU appear sinister or silly.
There's a drip drip effect which builds up an anti-EU agenda and of course it's extremely frustrating
The problem is people believe in the myths. When they said we were going to ban chocolate people thought it was true. But eight years on, it never happened. Time proves it's just nonsense"

She added that focusing on such stories meant serious legislation was often overlooked

Even the Equal Treatment Directive (aimed at harmonising and enforcing a ban across the 27-member bloc on discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation, age, religious belief and disability)
was ridiculed in the Telegraph as it meant bishops would be 'powerless to stop witches from hiring out church property' and 'organisers of a Catholic conference, for instance, would be legally obliged to make double rooms available to gay and unmarried couples'

Emma B, proudly European and British!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: GUEST,Shaneo
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 06:26 AM

The unemployment figure for Ireland in 1973 when Ireland joined the e.e.c. was 70,000. The figure today is 460,000.

Our farmers are worse off now that before we joined, as are our fisher men

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 06:29 AM

emma b,
that money was wasted,frittered away,
there has been very little investment in railways,we do not require motorways.
we require a better rail infrastructure.
you may be proudly whatever,but can I remind you that the IRISH PEOPLE have rejected the lisbon treaty already,they should not need to vote again.
why havent the english been allowed to vote on the treaty?.
the treaty should be rejected again because no one understands it,do you understand it Emma B.,IF YOU DO EXPLAIN IT IN ALLS ITS ENTIRETY.
I live in IRELAND,and isee very little improvement in the important transport infra structure,Rail and canals,we do not need ti o make the same mistakes as England,and waste money on motorways that get clogged up with more cars.
the irish fishing industry has been decimated by the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: bfdk
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 09:38 AM

You voted 'No'? Sorry, I didn't hear you. Vote again.

You still voted 'No'? We'll have to sweeten the pill for you..

You voted 'No' again??? Better lay on some threaths this time round..

You finally voted 'Yes'.. (listen to the resounding din of the trap clamping shut - never to open again)

Vote NO!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 09:52 AM

Whichever way Ireland votes the EU is still here, and Irelands's still a member, and on balance that's better for everyone.

The things that need changing will still be there - I don't knowm any reason to think that a No vote would make it any easier getting that done, very likely the reverse.

No good saying "don't trust the politicians who say it's good" - why should anyone sooner trust the other politicians who say it's bad?

I look around and see the papers and the public figures who'll be delighted if Ireland votes "No", and I intensely dislike what I see, probabaly even more than the ones who will be delighted if the vote is "Yes".

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:45 AM

Good Soldier Schweik, may I first point out that there is really no need to shout or even remind me that you are an Englishman living in Ireland.

While I would dearly love to see the narrow gague Schull and Skibbereen railway once more trundling over the magnicent Ballydehob it really is about as likely as re opening all the other non profit making branch lines that were scrapped in the UK a long time before the advent of the EU

So what has the EU done for Iarnród Éireann?

In the mid-1990s EU money was being spent on rail infrastructure, but there was little state funding, other than significant revenue support for socially desirable services the railway was obliged to provide

'The infrastructure was getting older,' explained Pat Mangan, who was appointed Assistant Secretary at the Department of Transport in June 1995. 'Safety was becoming an increasing issue. If you've got to reduce speeds all the time, you get a poorer service. We couldn't continue as we were.'
'Through the 1990s the EU money that came in was absolutely crucial,' says Mangan.
In 1998 €51m of EU funding was allocated to increase capacity in the Dublin area, through infrastructure work and the purchase of rolling stock. A further €15m was allocated to main line track upgrading.
The EU 2000-06 investment programme provided €300m.

Why the the English - or any of the other members of the EU - not vote on the treaty?

Only Ireland is bound by its constitution to hold a referendum.

You asked, in loud capitals, if I understoof the Lisbon Treaty - I might throw that back at you and ask how many of the people who will be voting actually do?

to quote The Irish times on Monday

"IT IS likely that when many voters turn out for the referendum on October 2nd the detailed specifics of the Lisbon Treaty may not be weighing most heavily on their minds
It is the nature of the referendum process for good or ill. Some will cast their votes because they believe we should be more or less involved in the EU
Some simply on the basis that they trust the supporters of one side more. Yet others, one fears, because they feel the Government deserves to be punished

In the history of European treaties Lisbon ranks lowly in terms of its impact on the shape of the EU and its politics. No great projects here, no single currency, no single market, it is mainly a series of incremental changes to institutional and decision-making structures, a few new jobs, a reaffirmation of core values and the setting out of some new political priorities, most notably relating to climate change

The treaty also enhances accountability and transparency by giving national parliaments new powers over legislation, opening to the public ministers' meetings when they are legislating, and creating a new citizens' initiative system.

(It)…….is not permitted, to encroach on areas of sovereignty that were of particular concern such as abortion, corporate taxation and military neutrality"

Cóir, the group leading opposition to the Lisbon Treaty, make claims that the danger, is not that the Lisbon Treaty itself would overthrow Ireland's pro-life law, but that "the treaty will give the EU courts the right to decide on abortion
However even Irish bishops claimed in their statement that they were remaining neutral on the referendum, and condemned what they called "misleading, incorrect, irrelevant" statements by opponents of the Treaty.

Green Party Dublin West representative Roderic O'Gorman has also condemned as lies, posters put up by the anti-Lisbon organisation COIR about the minimum wage.
"Over the last few days, the anti-Lisbon organisation COIR has been putting up posters around Dublin 15 stating that if Lisbon is passed, the minimum wage will become €1.84. As someone who lectures in European Union law, I can say that this claim is completely and utterly false", he stated

Meanwhile, after his failed campaign for the European Parliament in June in which his pan-European party, Libertas, was also routed
Declan Ganley said he would not get involved in a second referendum.

His re-entry into the fight comes at a time when opinion polls show support for a "yes" vote gaining ground and Ganley is gambling that he can swing the pendulum back again but much has changed since the country first rejected the treaty on June 13, 2008

In the intervening period the global recession has had a catastrophic effect on the Irish economy and many are weighing any argument against Lisbon against the prospect of isolation in Europe.

Paddy Murray (rugby fan, music lover, Irishman) writing on 'dodgy' Declan last year

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: skarpi
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:55 AM

my Irish friends , say no to the Lisbon treat ,
EU is not good.
The farming industry is down in EU countrys, farmes throwing
away milk and other goods......

the Fishing industry is ruin ........ in all countrys
I wonder why ........

Never ever vote for EU ,. say no to the treat and say no to EU .
Icelandic people are angry at EU for how they responce to us
when we landed beside Osama bin laden on that list .
this goes on long list of non forgetin things . but its the doin of the coverment not the people of UK, .

urrrrrrrrrr

kv Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 11:23 AM

'the Fishing industry is ruin ........ in all countrys
I wonder why ........ '

As it says on the WWF website

"Valuable fish stocks, as well as a whole host of other marine life, are severely threatened by overfishing, caused largely by poor fisheries management."

'The global fishing fleet is currently 2.5x larger than what the oceans can sustainably support1 - meaning that humans are taking far more fish out of the ocean than can be replaced by those remaining.

As a result:

52% of the world's fisheries are fully exploited, and 24% are overexploited, depleted, or recovering from depletion
Seven of the top ten marine fisheries, accounting for about 30% of all capture fisheries production, are fully exploited or overexploited
As many as 90% of all the ocean's large fish have been fished out Several important commercial fish populations have declined to the point where their survival is threatened

Why is this happening?

Many fishers are well aware of the need to safeguard fish populations and the marine environment.
However, the greed and waste of some large commercial fleets combined with modern developments in fishing technology have had an enormous effect on fishing worldwide.'

Last year the Scottish Government described as a "scandal" the massive overfishing of mackerel that has been carried out by Icelandic boats.
full BBC report

Greenpeace also comments on the detrimental effect of technology intensive fishing vessels - the world's fleet of industrialized fishing vessels.

"As more and more fish stocks decline, debt-ridden industrialized fleets are under increasing pressure to spend greater time and effort to catch fish, or to find other stocks, even new species, to exploit in a repeat of their destructive pattern of overfishing"

Greenpeace concludes that the relatively small number of 35,000 industrialized vessels larger than 100 GRT - by number about one-per cent of the world's entire fishing fleet - catches between half and two-thirds of the world's reported catches from marine fisheries

Sadly this is a worldwide problem

I'm not certain what skarpi means by the EU's response to Iceland..
...perhaps it is as....the Greenpeace site points out

'Whaling and EU membership are incompatible – the EU is likely to request that Iceland end whaling, as one of the conditions of accession'

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: skarpi
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 11:38 AM

Emma B , what right have EU to tell other nation s
what to do or not do ?? is EU some kind of world police ???

if we want to fish whales we fish whales we dont ask EU about that .
we live on an Island and through the centurys we have lived on what
mother earth have given us . if we dont fish whales we don´t
we dont ask other s about it . and we are not about to go stop everthing just becouse some people in some other part of the world
wants to ...   simble as that .


again , never ever vote for EU . Maybe we should ask Russia to defence
us after all .....then they can fly over UK once in while ...

kv Skarpi .

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 11:43 AM

None of which addresses the problem of the plundering of our seas benefitting others. We are well aware of the overfishing that goes on, and things are being done about it. No catch areas are designated, mesh sizes are increased, but guess which country takes note of these measures?
UK of course.!
Guess which countries ignore these measures?
Yup, you guessed it!
It's a totally different matter living in or near the communities which are suffering from this maladministration, from looking up figures on the internet, and stating them as if they were indisputable facts.
I know people who are involved, and I know what problems they are facing.

JM

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 12:15 PM

The opposition to whaling is not limited to the EU nor is the EU 'dictating' to Iceland, whatever paranoia the possibility of joining the EU seems to have generated!

The International Whaling Commission is the international body governing commercial whaling and providing for the conservation of whale populations

After decades of commercial whaling, whale populations crashed, and in 1986 the International Whaling Commission, implemented a ban on all commercial whaling.
Iceland did not object to this ban, thereby becoming bound by it.

However, before the commercial ban went into effect, Iceland proposed a program that would allow it to continue whaling through a "scientific" loophole in the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling.
Immediately after the ban went into effect, Iceland converted its commercial industry to this so-called "scientific" whaling program.

Three years later global condemnation led Iceland to end its scientific whaling program

In 1992 frustration over the Commission's efforts to protect whale populations prompted Iceland to leave the commission.

2002 Iceland rejoins IWC and opposed the establishment of a conservation committee in the IWC.


In January 2009, Iceland announced increased quotas for minke and fin whales despite a small domestic market for whale meat
In fact 80 tons of fin whale meat were exported to Japan despite the trade in whale products being restricted under CITES.


Anti-whaling campaigners across the world argue that scientific studies are not currently clear enough to warrant resumption of commercial whaling.

Moreover there are various other issues such as welfare of whales which is beyond the simple matter of conservation.
These issues have global relevance which is not restricted only to whaling and whaling countries

The humane Society notes that 'Iceland's commercial hunts are conducted without any transparency or measures to ensure that quotas are not exceeded.'

But even opinion in Iceland is divided

Icelandic tourism companies have publicly opposed their country's resumption of commercial whaling, citing concerns that it would impact the burgeoning whale-watching industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: longboat (inactive)
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 12:41 PM

As Emma states, whale-watching is fast becoming big busines in Iceland as it has done in many other countries. The financial impacting of this tourst bringer can be seen very clearly in Victoria, British Columbia, Canada.When the whale watching companies first started up anyone who had any sort of boat, Zodiacs being the optimal,would take the tourists out to see the whale (for a price, of course). However things got out of hand and several of the larger wale-watching companies were accused, with foundation in the accusations, of deliberately harassing the right whales and the orcas, indeed there was an incident of a whale watching boat getting between a right whale calf and it's mother, the result was not a pretty one, with the whale watching company demanding that the mother whale be killed as a menace. That whale watching company is no longer in business as a result of the incident.
The companies are now strictly regulated
This is an illustration the big money in this business, one that cannot be ignored, so the arguement about whale hunting providing hundreds and hundreds of jobs is fast becoming a myth. Don't let it be your issue in the up coming vote...it's a dead end.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 12:55 PM

Emma B,Codswallop,
there has been no ec money spent on the rail or canal infrastructure the rail system in ireland needs updating,at present you have to go through limerick junction to go from cork to dublin ,bloody ridiculous,yet all the time we Ireland has been in the EC,Nothing has been done to improve it.
it is the rail system that should be the priority,instead of which EC money has been spent on projects like this:
straightening the approach road into Ballydehob,bloody daft,that road slowed people down as they approached Ballydehob,now its been straightened out people drive too fast,and a garda has to sit out there and catch people breaking the speed limit,the community council has had to erect a sign warning people that in ioo metres time there is a 30mph speed limit,complete waste of EC money,they should have left the road alone,it was doing its job slowing people down naturally,that money should have gone to improving the railinfra structure
16 September 2009
Rail Bridge Failure In Focus
Ireland could have easily been mourning its worst rail disaster last month when the cross-border Dublin-Belfast rail line fell into the sea near Malahide last month.

This week, senior Irish Rail executives stand accused of playing with thousands of people's lives by not closing the busy rail line when safety concerns were raised five days prior to its collapse.

Labour Party Transport Spokesman Tommy Broughan told the Oireachtas Transport Committee that countless lives could have been lost when the bridge failed.

It has already been revealed that a member of the public - a Sea Scout leader - had flagged up concerns about one of the piers supporting the bridge to Irish Rail less than a week before the collapse.

"We could have been attending funerals for weeks. This could have been one of the most horrendous events in the history of our country," Mr Broughan said.

But Iarnród Éireann's boss, Richard Fearn said the complaint was taken seriously and a structural engineer was sent to examine the scene.

The Chief Executive said: "We did not take a chance, we reacted properly and professionally and when we got further information that there were no immediate risk but there were issues that needed to be looked at we sent a structural engineer to do an assessment."

He also said a special train checked the line just the day before the collapse but detected no structural problems.

He also admitted that the structural engineer responding to Mr Barrett's call did not go out on a boat to look at the pier in detail.

The collapse of the viaduct, which carried more than 90 trains a day, into the Broadmeadow estuary occurred on August 21st.

But on the previous Monday the Malahide scout leader contacted Irish rail over possible damage to one of the viaduct's piers, having seen the risk from the canoe he was in along with his scouts.

Ivan Barratt - who takes scouts canoeing two to three times a week around the Broadmeadow Estuary Rail viaduct - said he had noticed serious erosion on the structure on 14 August and phoned to warn Iarnród Éireann - but the company said an inspection found the damage was cosmetic, rather than structural.

"I think if it was a case of getting into a boat of some sort and going out to inspect the arch itself - and it would need to have been when the tide was at the correct height - then it would have been quite evident that there was a problem," he said.

"For somebody without any engineering qualifications it was evident there was a problem, (so) I'm quite sure a qualified engineer inspecting should have recognised straight off," the scout boss said, noting that swift action could have prevented the collapse.

In response, the rail boss admitted that their engineer did not use a boat, as it was low tide.

Mr Fearn said: "He took a number of vantage points where he could see what was being raised. We now know of course that he couldn't see the issues which were arising."

See: Iarnród Éireann 'Aware Of Bridge Erosion

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: pdq
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 01:00 PM

Iceland stopped harvesting the Minke Whale in 1989 but resumed again in 2006. Total catch authorized of this species: 38. There are at least 67,000 worldwide and it is not under any threat. I believe Scarpi said "mind your own business".

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: longboat (inactive)
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 01:15 PM

Must be nice to be an ostrich, pdq, having the old head buried in the sand all the time. If we all minded our own business, nothing would ever get done (or is that just fine with you? the status quo and all that) Having said that, I personally have no emotional capital invested in the whale hunting issue, it simply is, what I look at is the bottom line. Is it black ink or is it read ink. That's my only concern

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 01:26 PM

Sorry but the records demonstrate just how much EU money has gone into Iarnród Éireann.

I suspect, like many situations in the UK, much more attention is paid to the needs of the capital city than the outlying regions.

The UK too has had potentially and actual fatalities as a result of poor rail management/maintenance but I wouldn't lay these at the doors of the EU!

I'm well aware that the Premier Line by rail from Dublin to Cork is, and always has been in the 30 years plus I've been a regular visitor to friends in the West Cork area, via Limerick Junction.
I think a truly major operation would be required to change this route which has been in operation since the middle of the C19th and upgraded to continuous welded rail since 1977; a bit like rerouting all the West Coast UK line away from Crewe!

Nothing whatsoever to do with the EU, but the apparent incompetance of some authorities in the West never ceases to amaze me; how's the Skibbereen Sewage fiasco going?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: skarpi
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 01:53 PM

well if Emma has all those answear then , tell me why have nothing ben done to stop the biggest whale nation in the world USA ??


Greenpeace , clean up your own garden before you go after someone else .

whalewatching has been goin well this summer , and although we have been
fishing some whales , that has not damage the watching at all ,
the whalewatching is goin up . and mind that we are not killing the biggest one at all . people were afraid that the fishing would damage
the watching but it has not . turist are coming more and more and more to Iceland . as I said before we live on this Island , we have been raced to live on the sea , and the land.

keep googling Emma , just remember that things on google
are not all true .....   

and BBQ whalemeat yammmmiiii

well you dont want us eat whale , well why do people eat Kenguru ,
apes , Crocodiles , Zeprahorse and dogs and cats and so on ?????? I eat whale meat yes , but I dont eat kenguru or crocodile .

I will eat whale , seabirds and fish and shark as long as I live
and noone in some other country is goin to stop me .
Not even EU

Always vote NO for EU


kv Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 02:07 PM

I don't believe there are many kangaroos or crocodiles in Iceland.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 02:25 PM

International debates over whaling have focused on issues of sustainability and conservation as well as ownership and national sovereignty. Also raised in debates is the question of cetacean intelligence and the level of suffering which the animals undergo during harvest

Some whale species, however (in particular the Minke Whale) have never been considered endangered although Fin Whales in the Northern Atlantic, they still hold that status.

Of more than 150 whales killed in this Icelandic year's hunt, 94 fin whales were included.

This information is avaiable from respected sources on line; please do not hestitate in informing me which of these organizations are dishonest skarpi - I'm rather more inclined to believe them than highly subjective forum posts!


In the United States, whaling is carried out by Alaska natives from nine different communities in Alaska.
The whaling program is managed by the Alaska Eskimo Whaling Commission which reports to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. The hunt takes around 50 Bowhead Whales a year from a population of about 10,500 in Alaskan waters - the IWC Scientific Committee, the same group that provided the above population estimate, projects a population growth of 3.2% per year.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: skarpi
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 02:58 PM

I don't believe there are many kangaroos or crocodiles in Iceland.
hahahahahahaha nobbbb !!!! but we get the meat here if we want to .

even a deer meat .

all the best Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 03:03 PM

"Several countries catch whales, including the United States, Russia, Norway, Japan and Greenland. The whaling operations practiced by all these countries, as well as Iceland, are sustainable and legal and in accordance with the rules of the International Whaling Commission (I.W.C.). The abundance of both the common minke whale stock and the fin whale stock caught by Iceland has been confirmed by the Scientific Committees of the International Whaling Commission and the North-Atlantic Marine Mammal Commission."

Source



It's a good game this.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 04:13 PM

oh yes, they are still pumping raw sewage into Schull harbour.
Emma Bee,you went to west cork via limerick junction,that took some doing,your nearest station must have been Killarney or Cork city a good 50 miles from west cork.
more railways are needed ,and less motorways.
part of the problem with the EU EMPIRE it has got too big,most empires meet their downfall,through an over large bureaucracy,thats the problem with the EU empire,it sometimes makes silly laws,that cant take into account,the needs or requirements of different member states.
Norway and Switzerland have got it right.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: pdq
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 05:43 PM

Perhaps too much has been said about whaling already, but let's make sure everybody has the facts straight.

The following countries (or regions) have some whaling despite a general ban by the IWC since the 1985-6 season:
                        Canada
                        Caribbean (region)
                        Faroe Islands
                        Greenland
                        Iceland
                        Indonesia
                        Japan
                        Norway
                        New Zealand (Aotearoa)
                        Philippines
                        Russia
                        USA

The United States, Canada and New Zealand have no commercial whaling, but allow some heavily supervised harvesting by native people, some of which are located around the Arctic in several different countries. Some of the native people have treaties going back a long time and those agreements must be honored.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: longboat (inactive)
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 06:28 PM

there's facts and then there's facts...the facts that get accepted are generally from the folk who can shout the loudest, just as history is written by the victors

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 01:21 PM

But the best songs are often written by the losers.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 02:15 PM

yeah brittania rules the waves is crap so is god save godfrey winn.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: longboat (inactive)
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 02:25 PM

As I said before, the whale hunt, to me, is all about pounds, dollars, euros or whatever, I have no emotion capital invested, If the hunt make money then keep it going, if it dosn't make money then cut you losses and cease the hunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 03:04 PM

I think you'll find that most of the whales killed now, are for human consumption, and as such, it's no worse than killing any other mammal for food.

JM

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 03:05 PM

Can't see how we can complain about Whaling, when we still allow Factory Farming..

Get your own house in order before judging others.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: longboat (inactive)
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 03:24 PM

The only hunt I see no point to is fox hunting, or as Oscar Wilde put it, "the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible"

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Lox
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 04:47 PM

"Ireland could have easily been mourning its worst rail disaster last month when the cross-border Dublin-Belfast rail line fell into the sea near Malahide last month.

This week, senior Irish Rail executives stand accused of playing with thousands of people's lives by not closing the busy rail line when safety concerns were raised five days prior to its collapse."

I was in Dublin when this happened, and I distinctly remember that the big scandal had to do with the fact that the engineer responsible for inspecting the bridge to ensure its safety gave it a clean bill of health.

I listened to interviews on the radio in which the relevant authourities were given a grilling about how reliable their inspection procedures were.


So it was in fact a story of possible incompetence, and therefore nothing whatsoever to do with EU finance.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 04:50 PM

"the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible" Oscar didn't always worry too much about being accurate, rather than achieving an effect.

Here is a fox meat recipe (from here):

Fox meat is not tender and has a wild taste about it...
I will require that you let the meat lie overnight in salted water with a hint of vinegar in it...
Next day it should be cooked on a low heat for four hours or so or cut in to cubes and cooked in a pressure pot for about an hour...
It makes for a venison stew when done with potatoes and vegetables.
We usually do not fry or BBQ it because it is tough.
Remember that a fox has almost no fat so the meat tends to be dry like deer meat.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Lox
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 04:53 PM

The warning about the Bridge came from a sea scout. The official engineer cleared it as safe.


The Story

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Lox
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 04:57 PM

Besides which, aren't you a bit big to be going round linking the lisbon treaty to collapsing bridges - as if to say "if you join the EU the railway bridges will fall into the sea"

Someone earlier on in this thread said something about people being scared into voting for the EU.

In fact the anti EU case is all about instilling panic.

"we'll lose the pound"

"we'll by ruled by brussels (foreigners)"

"The bridges will all fall down"

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 07:54 PM

lox, the relevance of the rail story,/lack of investment in the railways,
"we'll by ruled by brussels (foreigners)"[quote]
no,thats not the problem, the problem is we are already ruled by an empire that is top heavy with bureaucracy,is inefficient, cumbersome and unable to take into considertation properly the needs of individual member states,its reminiscent of the soviet union,in its ineffiency.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Lox
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 09:28 PM

"lox, the relevance of the rail story,/lack of investment in the railways,"

The accident had nothing to do with a lack of investment.

It had to do with negligent work practice.

It is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: skarpi
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 05:19 AM

whe whale hunting was stopped yesterday :>)
no more whale hunting , in some time now .

but there is still enough meat for me. and think about this
there is no drugs or hormon in that meat put in by mans hand .

kv Skarpi .

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 05:59 AM

Iceland has killed at least 93 fin whales this summer, making this (together with an additional 63 minke whales) the largest commercial whale hunt in North Atlantic waters for decades.

It is extimated that the meat and blubber from the whales may yield a staggering two million kilogrammes of edible products.

As the current population of Iceland is a little above 300,000 I imagine that there will be more than enough meat for everyone in Iceland and a little left over too!

Iceland stopped commercial whaling after whalers discovered they couldn't find domestic markets for the meat they caught.

A Gallup poll in 2006 found "Only 1.1 percent of Icelanders eat whale meat once a week or more, while 82.4 percent of 16 to 24-year-olds never eat whale meat."

Iceland's fin whaling company said on Friday it plans a huge export of about 1,500 tonnes of whale meat, mainly to Japan

BBC News Science and Environment

Last year, Hvalur hf exported about 65 tonnes of whalemeat to Japan, a consignment that owner Kristjan Loftsson described as a "loss-leader".
But following this year's huge catch, he believes the next one can make money.

Mr Loftsson said he had now suspended fin whaling for this season, having caught 125 from a quota of 150.

The remaining 25 can be carried over into next year's hunting season.

This compares with a total of seven caught in the previous three years.

The fin is globally listed as an endangered species, though Icelandic marine scientists maintain stocks are big enough locally to sustain a hunt of this size.

New quotas were controversially set by the government of Geir Haarde just before it left office in January.


..............some conservationists believe Mr Loftsson is using whaling as a way to lobby against EU membership.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: skarpi
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 07:12 AM

93 is wrong number Emma they are more .
and Loftson is not using this against EU .

we will fish whales if like to ,, if not then we dont .
The EU or Greenpeace or USA , have no right to be some world
police .... mind your own buissness , why dont fight for human right s
like slavery on children , children who sold to use in sex cames
crazy minded people , womans who use in sexslavery and then get killed.
You take the Animals over the humans ?? what about the hunger in Africa
Indonesia , and on many more places .......

well shame on you ....

all the best Skarpi Iceland

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 07:38 AM

Of course if everyone in the world 'minded their own business' as you so politely demand skarpi there would be NO fight against human trafficking, female genital mutilation, racist violence and all the other things examples of man's inhunity to his fellow man (women and children!) I have campaigned against both on this forum and elsewhere.

To defend the rights of human beings in the face of genocide, starvation and torture DOES NOT also preclude concern about the welfare of the other sentinent beings who share our planet whatever very personal cries of 'shame' you make on me skarpi.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 08:18 AM

No one is going to invade Iceland to stop it whaling. Perhaps stopping the whaling might be a condition for joining the EU - but then you don't want Iceland to join the EU, slarpi. So what's the problem ?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 08:20 AM

It has long been the trade mark of 'do gooders' everywhere, to excuse their lack of consideration for the feelings of others, on the self righteous basis, that they know better than the poor benighted persons, who indulge in whatever it is they are agin.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 08:53 AM

"why dont (you) fight for human rights like slavery on children?'

Fortunately, the self righteous 'do gooders' finally succeeded in the US despite, as Richard Dawkins observed 'lots of people felt morally uneasy about slavery but went along with it because the whole economy of the South depended upon slavery.'

and the view held by some in the north that
"There is no right, and ought to be no inclination in the people of the free States to enter into the slave States, and interfere with the question of slavery at all."

Please excuse my lack of consideration for the feelings of the poor benighted slave owners of the past or those who control traffiked people in this day and age which you can bet your bottom dollar I'm 'agin' !

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 09:30 AM

Oh, it was your shoe!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Mississippi Saxaphone
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 09:52 AM

Fighting for the rights of humans and fighting for the rights of animals are NOT mutually exclusive!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: skarpi
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 11:38 AM

McGrath , the problem is this , others and who are other they are
Greenpeace, other countrys are interfearing in our rights to use and
fish what is in our waters .

Like Emma pointed out Iceland is 320 thousand people , do we all eat whale ? no we dont , do we need to 100 whales ?? no we don´t
why , well Japan have their own hunting and are have enough for them self , for our inside country market we should maybe hunt 5 to 15
whales in one year . this man who owns that company he has not sold the meat yet , and I think even next year that will be a dying buisness
for him , but hunt 5 to ten whales ahould be okei every year .

Whats is going to me is ; the Interfearing .

Yes I am against EU , some things are good in EU but we are an Island
and there are some of us that are afraid that companys in Eroupe
will buy out the energy companys and the fishing industry.
that means if some others will get the energy , the price will go
up , and that is not what we need right now . its cold in Iceland
and people without work are not gonna use heat in their houses
if the price goes much up . and there are many other reasons
like the farming , but there are plus-es also .

I vote against EU .
we have sheingen and all we have is trouble our prison are full
immigrants homes are full..
we the EES witch mean that we already have over 65% of the EU
rools , and some of them we cant take becouse they dont fit in here .

just two weeks ago we an inspection on the view for EU and
75 % of the nation is against EU .
so why bother apply ? dont know , its only the minory of the left wing in our coverment whos trying go into EU .
Tell me , why does UK and Danmark use Euro for money ?

all the best Skarpi Iceland ,.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 11:56 AM

It had to do with negligent work practice.[quote lox]
its the same thing, lack of investment,by not having someone checking,or double checking the work practices,employ more people to make sure the railways are safer, employ more people to check safety[thats investment]instead of paying people to be unemployed.
it is not irrelevant.
the eu would rather fritter money away on useless projects like straightening the approach road to Ballydehob.and then garda has to be employed to stop people speeding,if they had never done it in the first place,ther wiould be no necessity for the garda to sit there with a speedtrap.
finally lox said this[quote]"we'll by ruled by brussels (foreigners)"
   Lox as an Englishman living in Ireland,could I remind you that if I didnt like foreigners I wouldnt be living in IRELAND would I,Ireland is a foreign country filled with Paddys, some Rumanians some Poles,but worst of all too many fucking Brits[god how I hate those Brits especialy the ones with estuary accents]Why dont they go back to England or better still the costa brava.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 08:09 AM

"The first constituency in the country has declared official results in the Lisbon Referendum.

Tipperary South has voted Yes by a margin of 68.42%.

In the first Lisbon Referendum, Tipperary South was the closest to the National average - with a No vote of 53.21%, compared to a national figure of 53.4%."

RTE news today

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Lox
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 06:53 PM

"Lox as an Englishman living in Ireland,could I remind you that if I didnt like foreigners I wouldnt be living in IRELAND would I"

I didn't say anything about you or your like/dislike of foreigners.

I'm not interested in that.

what I'm interested in is this.


"its the same thing, lack of investment,by not having someone checking,or double checking the work practices,employ more people to make sure the railways are safer, employ more people to check safety[thats investment]instead of paying people to be unemployed.
it is not irrelevant."


What rubbish.


Someone was paid to examine the bridge and give his professional expert opinion. He did so, but was negligent.

The answer isn't to pay two men.

If the one man had done his Job properly the problems with the Bridge would have been dealt with.

He was responding the the concerns of sea scout and he decided he knew better and was criminally negligent.

He didn't take the sea scout seriously but decided that he knew better and couldn't be bothered to examine the bridge properly.

As clear cut a case of criminal negligence as I have ever seen.

Nonetheless you conclude that the collapse was a consequence of underinvestment.

And then advance that as an argument against Ireland signing up to an EU treaty.

Reading your argument reminds me of the time a small relative of mine proved to me that she could count to a hundred ...

1,2, skip a few, 99, 100.

... she was joking.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:57 AM

"brittania rules the waves is crap" - from the good soldier. Just a point of note there is no such song, I would have thought that an "englishman" would have known that.

My biggest gripe at the EU is its refusal to publish its budget and its complete and utter lack of transparency. It is wholey undemocratic being run by an unelected council of ministers Mandelson and Kinnock being two prime examples, the former sacked twice for corruption and the other who as the leader of a political party was turned down by the British electorate repeatedly.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: skarpi
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:21 AM

that was a sad day for Ireland . :>(

never vote for EU or IMF
kv Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:13 PM

No a great day! Ireland comes in from the cold.
The old barriers are breaking down. The Irish will be weaned on Heinekens and Austrians on Smithwicks.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 06:31 PM

never vote for EU

Then vote "No", if the question of membership ever comes up for Iceland, and it won't happen unless most other Icelanders disagree with you, skarpi.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 07:35 PM

About the same time Greenland joins the Organization of American States.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 11:36 AM

While Polish President, Lech Kaczyñski, had previously signed a parliamentary bill paving the way for Polish ratification of the Lisbon Treaty he had also said that it would have been pointless to give his final signature before a solution to the Irish no vote could be found.

After making the EU wait for 557 days since the Polish parliament passed the treaty and in full view of foreign VIPs and TV cameras, today he signed the Lisbon Treaty at a ceremony in Warsaw.


The cloud hanging over the event is Vaclav Klaus, the Czech president, who made clear on Friday that he plans to push for last-minute changes to the EU's new treaty at the upcoming 29 October summit despite the fact that both houses of the Czech parliament have ratified the treaty, in February and May

Some in the Czech Republio believe that the president is exceeding his powers and other member states may be wary about making concessions to the Czech president who has made his loathing for the traty very evident.
He has now told the president of the European parliament, Jerzy Buzek, that he wanted the treaty reopened to secure an exemption from the charter of fundamental rights which is appended to the treaty.

The leader of the Conservative party in the UK, David Cameron has encouraged Mr Klaus to hold out on ratifying the treaty

The UK Foreign Secretary has called upon the contents of the private letter from David Cameron to the Czech president to be made public.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 02:17 PM

emma b,why are you so keen on this treaty?do youknow what it contains?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish vote on Lisbon treaty looms
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 02:47 PM

Time for all the smaller economies to be good soldiers and get in step.