BS: Home Education UK

Subject: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 06:47 AM

This is an attempt to discuss Home Education. Is it right? Should it be allowed? What regulations should be in place? How does it affect you as a parent? Are you a parent who does Home Education and how does it affect you?

Please try not to flame or swear. Put your points calmly and with respect for other people, no matter what their viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:04 AM

I've met a few parents involved in this over the years. Without exception they were all neurotic obsessional cranks, and the idea of allowing anybody that weird to have total control over a child's experiential environment gave me the willies.

If the kid goes to school, at least you can expect bungling teachers and bungling parents to bungle in different ways and cancel each other out.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:05 AM

I think it's an excellent idea, BUT. There should be set textbooks that all parents should use. In this way a child's progress can be examined by inspectors, and their progress assessed.
The reasons for home education are many, from geographical isolation making travel to school long and difficult, to keeping severely bullied children out of an hostile environment.
In all cases, care should be taken to ensure the child develops social skills, and is allowed, nay required, to have social interaction with their peers.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:11 AM

I'm with Jack. The majority of home educators I have met have had what one could politely call 'issues', and their offspring have found it difficult to re-enter the educational mainstream for higher education.
Of course there are exceptions, and I have met some very successful people who have been home-schooled, but the majority seem to emerge as the victims of a half-arsed experiment by their parents. As John says, there needs to be a proper framework to ensure that the kids are being properly educated. And not, as in one case I know, of having 12-year-olds taught history by having them colour in pictures of knights in armour and pick what they want to watch on American K-12 websites.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:18 AM

My daughter's partner is a home-schooled person, it was simply what his mother - a trained teacher - wanted to do with her children.

I think it is dangerous to generalise from the particular, but I would like to know what home educators believe is the optimum age for allowing people back into mainstream education. If ever of course.

And what would the key indicators be that the right time has arrived?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: vectis
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:19 AM

I met some travellers in New Zealand who educated their children at home. The government provides them with the materials for all their formal schooling which is posted to the parents and returned by the parents for marking when completed. The parents are paid to ensure the work gets done.

One woman had raised 5 children in this way and four had gone on to college or Uni and she was rightly proud of their achievements. the fifth was still travelling with mum and hadn't yet finished her education but was expected to go on to higher education like the others.

If the Kiwi's and Australians (via bush radio) can organise schooling for at home and traveller kids why can't other countries?

In the UK travelling children really lose out and it is a national disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:23 AM

I personally think that any parents who partake in Home Education, should be made to follow a curriculum and there should be a means of checking that the requirements are being met.
I do not have any issues with regard to the parents having to have a CRB.

Not everybody is cranky, although a parent could be made to seem as though they are cranky, when their child is being bullied and it is not stamped out. If that ever happens to my special needs daughter, I will have no hesitation in carrying out Home Education and be open to CRB checks and help and guidance in supporting the education.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:34 AM

.Main Stream Education', for all you patronising people out there...is LIFE.

And your Education begins when you have LEFT school, not when you are incarcerated inside it....

Thank oooo.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:40 AM

"To home-educate children in the UK, one does not need a teaching qualification nor any specialist equipment and whilst some families follow a routine for learning, others do not.

There are families known to their LEA as home-educators and there are others that are not (Muckle 1997).

Currently, families home-educating children in England and Wales who have never been to school, are under no obligation to inform anyone

Whilst the school option involves formal assessment and inspection, the 'otherwise' alternative involves neither in any legislative form.

'LEAs, however, have no automatic right of access to the parent's home. Parents may refuse a meeting in the home, if they can offer an alternative way of demonstrating that they are providing a suitable education, for example, through showing examples of work and agreeing to a meeting at another venue.'

DfEE (1998a, point 4)" *


It appears to be particularly this last reccommendation of the Badman report that assessment and inspection of home schooling provision be more formalized, including the option of inspectors meeting with the children themselves, that has caused consternation and extremely angry responses amongst home educators who equate this with their children being perceived 'at risk'

A situation that was provoked by an NSPCC (an independent Childrens charity) policy adviser who during an interview unwisely made an inaccurate observation about a high profile child abuse case -

"Some people use home education to hide. Look at the Victoria Climbié case. No one asked where she was at school. We have no view about home education, but we do know that to find out about abuse someone has to know about the child."

This was immediately made a political issue by a UKIP MEP who demanded his resignation and claimed the NSPCC's "job is to vilify decent parents." advocating complete 'freedom' for parents.


*a description of the current situation by Dr Paula Rothermel C. Psychol. FRSA

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: maeve
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:46 AM

The majority of home school students and families with whom I've had the pleasure of working here (in Maine and New Hampshire) have been healthy, responsible, and productively involved in their communities. As an educator, tutor, librarian, and story hour presenter, I have observed a real dedication to and effective use of both state mandated and family generated materials.

When a family is equipped to handle the challenges involved in meeting State standards while focusing on the needs and interests of teach child, the quality, integration, and depth of learning is meaningful and life long. Such students are fortunate to have such a wealth of learning opportunities, and according to the North American studies I've seen, are more likely to do well in tech schools, college, work, and in social interactions when compared to conventionally educated students.

In my opinion and based on my experience, the best education results when schools and homeschooling families work together to ensure an excellent education for every child; something that is currently lacking in most communities I have known. Homeschooling, like other educational options, in not the best choice for every child (or every adult).

When I see how poorly-conceived testing has taken the place of excellent teaching and learning in so many schools here and in the UK, my personal choice would be to keep my children as far from most schools as possible. Your mileage may vary.

maeve

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:46 AM

Well, lots of good old prejudice flying around here. Huge numbers, not just a handful of cranks and religious fanatics, opt for home education and different degrees of flexi-schooling.They do so for al sorts of reasons, but too opften because their beloved children were not flourishing in the school environment, were often bullied or picked on because of a disability or difference, and came alive with a well thought out and guided programme of exploration in the real world.
   School is a necessary evil for society, it can never provide a natural and authentic learning environment. pwerhaps sceptics would benefit from reading some John Holt or John Taylor Gatto.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 08:00 AM

maeve brings a US perspective on this discussion which might be worth expanding a little

In America home schooling regulations vary widely from state to state.

Alaska, for example, has virtually no oversight of home schooling; parents do not even have to notify the state officials that their children are being home-schooled. - similar to the current situation in the UK where a child has never attended school

Most states however have some form of registration for home-schooled children and some requirements for what the child must be taught.

Some rescind the right to be home-schooled if a student does not reach a certain score on standardized tests.

For example, New York, which has some of the strictest laws, requires that parents teach a wide range of subjects (including substance abuse and traffic safety) and file quarterly reports to ensure that progress is being made. Furthermore, if the student scores in the bottom third of a standardized test, the state has the right to force the student into public school.

In freedom loving California, parents are now only allowed to home-school their children by filing as a private school and enrolling only their children.
Rachel F. Moran of the University of California, Berkeley, argued that regulation was necessary to protect children. "We want parents to have the freedom to homeschool, but we don't want children to become captives in a homeschool that doesn't prepare them for work or civic engagement as a functioning adult," she said.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 08:06 AM

An education is only as good as the teacher. A good teacher, be it in a school or at home, is priceless, but for home educators the potential pool of inspiring teachers is rather small. And, sadly, I have met quite a few rather dim people who don't seem to realise that education is a full-time occupation and not simply a matter of plonking the kids in front of the PC or TV while they get on with other things. In my view, if you couldn't cut the mustard in a classroom you shouldn't be teaching at home.
The sort of attitude shown by the reaction to the NSPCC's comment is one that I've come across here in West Wales (where home education is very common among counter-cultural types, downsizers and would-be hippes) - a lot of parents seem to be paranoid about any LEA or social services involvement.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 08:12 AM

Tug, I love you! :0) x

Maeve, I love you, too! :0) x

Glory Halleluliah!!!

And YES, read John Taylor Gatto and John Holt....then go into many of our secondary schools and see what is happening, not just in inner city schools either....

Our kids, as a nation, need love! They do not need any more effing bloody edukashon.....It's driving a vast amount of them to the brinks of suicide!

And yes, the numbers of children who are being removed from school by their parents and home-schooled, is rocketing..and THAT is another reason why 'they' are now trying to stop it all, making it harder and harder and harder to do.

Sod 'em and all who support 'em!

NEVER before have our children NOT wanted to learn as they do not want to learn at present. NEVER before has our young population been so dumbed down, so controlled, so apathetic.....and it's happening because, from the moment of their birth, they are put on that Conveyer Belt of Life, *by their parents*...

We have abused Motherhood. We have removed Femininity. We have stolen the parents from the children and stuck them inside Factory Farms of Edukashon, some so big that the teachers don't even know the names of the children.

Children go to school with knives, to protect themselves! They live their lives in hostile situations, 5 days a week, whilst having to learn things they hate! They get detention, ridicule, told off, humiliated, verbally abused, bullied, kicked....on and on .....and what do 'the parents' say?

"Oh, school has always been like that. That's life, that's the way it is and you have to toughen up, kid!"

So the kids toughened up, and they toughened out. They've lost compassion, kindness, sweetness....They buy books of the best 'put downs' to humiliate each other, they are cruel and rude and cranky...

But most of all, MOST of all, they are deeply, DEEPLY unhappy!

I would take on any teacher, at any teacher's conference, Dave, if you're out there, willingly! I would talk, if necessary rant and rage, to any politician, any TV presenter, anyone from within the Edukashun System itself...and I would do so willingly, because I know, from my own kids, from my friends' kids how disturbingly unhappy many, many children now are.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 08:24 AM

By taking a child out of school you are, effectively, removing him or her from the education system for the rest of life, with all that that implies. Even if you are a qualified teacher you will not be able to give the in-depth teaching needed in secondary education. The education system may not be perfect but must surely be better than leaving a child at the mercy of one or two opinionated and, perhaps, neurotic parents who are convinced that they know best and, almost invariably, don't - and who will simply be instilling their prejudices into their offspring without giving them the opportunity to form a balanced view, based on their own experiences.

Being part of the education system gives children a far broader, more varied and certainly more balanced education than they can possible ever hope to achieve at home, exposing them to views and activities away from the narrow spectrum of their parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 09:17 AM

"But most of all, MOST of all, they are deeply, DEEPLY unhappy!"

Lizzie, I know you have had this experience and I sypathise with you, but it is certainly NOT the norm.

Most children in my experience, and the experience of mrsleveller who is an education professional and works with a wide range of schools, often in deprived areas, is that, IF THEIR PARENTS HAVE THE RIGHT ATTITUDE, they have a good experience of school. All my 4 children have enjoyed school and, when my elder daughter was unable to attend for 2 years due to ME, the school went out of its way to help.

"They get detention, ridicule, told off, humiliated, verbally abused, bullied, kicked...."

I simply don't believe that this happens nowadays. Any school where it did would certainly quickly fall foul of OFSTED.

The scenario you paint, whilst serving to make the point of what happened in your isolated case, does not, in any way, represent the true state of education in the UK today.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 09:19 AM

"By taking a child out of school you are, effectively, removing him or her from the education system for the rest of life, with all that that implies."


No, levels, it is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE!   You could not be MORE wrong. A child will learn what they love to learn. A child will learn at their own pace, their natural pace.

School is the most unnatural system ever devised...and most people have been so indoctrinated into it, that they will never think outside the box.

I have no boxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 09:27 AM

It's a lovely theory, but it comes unstuck when you get to university entry.
Cambridge and, for all I know, Oxford, will sometimes interview a home-educated applicant if they can be persuaded that the applicant is up to scratch, but that is as rare as rocking-horse crap - and in the wider university marketplace the only place where I know that happens is with mature students, and they have to undertake at least a foundation course to prove they can hack a degree-level course.
Thus the home educated child is effectively disbarred from tertiary education.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 09:43 AM

"No, levels, it is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE!   You could not be MORE wrong. A child will learn what they love to learn."

Well, you know I'm going to disagree with you there. There are things that we NEED to know and these have to be taught even where there is a disinclination to learn them. That is the skill of a good teacher. Giving a child a well-rounded education gives them new insights and provides the tools they need to follow whatever course they later choose, having been able to sort through the options available. Someone who want to be a bricklayer must first learn to mix cement, cut bricks, use a spirit-level etc. no matter if these don't seem attractive. The end will well justify the means.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 10:18 AM

In the 1970s Raymond S. and Dorothy N. Moore conducted four federally funded analyses of more than 8,000 early childhood studies, from which they published their original findings in Better Late Than Early, which concluded that, "where possible, children should be withheld from formal schooling until at least ages eight to ten."

According to the Moores their analysis suggested that children need
"more free exploration with... parents, and fewer limits of classroom and books," and
"more old fashioned chores – children working with parents – and less attention to rivalry sports and amusements."

However they only advocated a later start to formal schooling which they felt "encourages peer dependence"

In contrast Rob Reich wrote in The Civic Perils of Homeschooling (2002) that homeschooling can potentially give students a one-sided point of view, as their parents may, even unwittingly, block or diminish all points of view but their own in teaching.
He also argues that homeschooling, by reducing students' contact with peers, reduces their sense of civic engagement with their community.

As many children in America are educated at home for religious reasons (the last census stated over a third) other arguments against have included -

Lack of socialization with peers of different ethnic and religious backgrounds;

The potential for development of religious or social extremism;

Children sheltered from mainstream society, or denied opportunities that are their right, such as social development;

Potential for development of parallel societies that do not fit into standards of citizenship and the community. (as demonstrated in some of the more isolated 'cults')

Of course registration and effective monitoring, as carried out in other European counties where home schooling is legal,* should be able to recognize where education becomes 'indoctrination' in race hatred for example.

*Homeschooling is illegal in Germany (with rare exceptions).
'Generally Illegal' in Spain, the Netherlands and Sweden.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 10:18 AM

To put it another way, you may have reservations about the NHS but you wouldn't remove your child's appendix on the kitchen table.

Would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Acorn4
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 10:27 AM

Although I've now retired from teaching, I still get the government "propaganda" magazine published by the GTC through my letterbox.

In this months there is a feature about someone who has set himself up as a "laughter facilitator", teaching children and teachers how to laugh.

One of the things I noticed in the last years I was teaching was that a sense of humour was no longer to be found in the staffrooms, due to the fact that everyone was breathing down each others necks. The climate of fear can be doing neither children or teachers any good.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:13 AM

I would take on any teacher, at any teacher's conference, Dave, if you're out there, willingly! I would talk, if necessary rant and rage, to any politician, any TV presenter, anyone from within the Edukashun System itself...and I would do so willingly, because I know, from my own kids, from my friends' kids how disturbingly unhappy many, many children now are.

No you wouldn't Lizzie. You'd be too busy organising the folk festival you promised to organise a couple of weeks ago and the march you promised to organise a couple of days ago.

Or haven't you started to do those yet? And I offered to organise a coach load of people in support. I have to tell you in all sincerity, I have stopped doing that and I have told the people who signed up that it may not go ahead.

What evidence do we have apart from yours that your children are as you say?

I am not, as some are, querying your right to educate your children as you wish. Since you have indicated in the past that both you and they have dyslexia I think it might have helped had you both had the benefit of a sympathetic dyslexia teacher. But hey ho, we can't all have what we wish for.

But you still haven't answered my question - are you still educating your child(ren) at home? If not, are they still being educated, where and at what level. Simple enough question I would have thought.

And before you answer "Personal, not telling you" - you brought them into the discussion in the first place. But you'll have forgotten that by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:40 AM

I'd also like to pose some questions

"To home-educate children in the UK, one does not need a teaching qualification nor any specialist equipment"

What is considered the acceptable 'standard' for any individual to educate a child/young person up to the age of 16 in a range of subjects ?
Is this a task instinctive 'motherhood' and 'love' equips everyone for?
How are such 'qualifications' to be measured?

Does home schooling allow a 'monitor' system where older children are teaching their younger siblings?

In state schools corporal punishment was outlawed in 1986 and 1998 for the few remaining independent schools that retained the practice.
In England and Wales legislation prohibiting corporal punishment does not apply to the home - and logically therefore home educators are still free to exercise this form of discipline with no monitoring?

Any answers?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Chris Green
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:40 AM

I'm with theleveller. I work in education myself and so did both of my parents. Education works best when it's a genuine partnership between kids, parents and teachers.

The only direct case of home-schooling I have personal experience of is a friend of mine whose wife insisted that their kids be taken out of school at the age of 7 and 5 respectively so that she could educate them herself (my friend had a pretty full-on job and she was a housewife). The fact that she'd left school without taking any GCSEs, had never a job and was without a doubt one of the most moronic people I've ever encountered didn't seem to deter her. Sadly it also didn't seem to deter the local LEA from letting her give it a go!

A couple of years later she found herself a new bloke and ditched my friend. And guess what? Suddenly she decided it was time for the kids to go back into full-time education at school! Given that they'd learned nothing at all during their period of home education except some rather choice language, they're now finding it very hard to readjust to mainstream education, not least because of their complete lack of social skills (as they've spent no time with other kids for two years.)

Grrrr.....

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:46 AM

A quote from Lizzie "Children go to school with knives, to protect themselves!"

Both of my daughters have never taken or used knives to school. There are 1200 in the school, so I guess from your comment Lizzie, 1198 must have knives. Well that is just amazing and mind boggling.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:12 PM

I have met a number of children who have been home-schooled all across the country including Alaska. Some were failing in the "system" and parents pulled them out; some had disabilities that simply were not being addressed in the classroom (a whole other discussion); some parents had chosen home schooling for religious reasons.
The one (and only) drawback I saw in almost every situation was a lack of social skills. Some acted like perfect little adults; all had difficulty interacting with other children. This was especially true of the children home schooled for religious reasons. They literally never interacted with anyone outside their parent's chosen world.
I am not sure how that plays out in their adult lives. But if education is the only issue, I suspect they are well educated.



Not sure what this is all about:
"NEVER before have our children NOT wanted to learn as they do not want to learn at present. NEVER before has our young population been so dumbed down, so controlled, so apathetic.....and it's happening because, from the moment of their birth, they are put on that Conveyer Belt of Life, *by their parents*...

We have abused Motherhood. We have removed Femininity. We have stolen the parents from the children and stuck them inside Factory Farms of Edukashon, some so big that the teachers don't even know the names of the children.

Children go to school with knives, to protect themselves! They live their lives in hostile situations, 5 days a week, whilst having to learn things they hate! They get detention, ridicule, told off, humiliated, verbally abused, bullied, kicked....on and on .....and what do 'the parents' say?

"Oh, school has always been like that. That's life, that's the way it is and you have to toughen up, kid!"

So the kids toughened up, and they toughened out. They've lost compassion, kindness, sweetness....They buy books of the best 'put downs' to humiliate each other, they are cruel and rude and cranky...

But most of all, MOST of all, they are deeply, DEEPLY unhappy!"

At least in Maine and Jackson Heights, NY the above is not the norm. There are and always will be some kids who do not fit in . That is for a variety of reasons - some are too bright and get bored; some are not bright enough and get lost; some have parents who are simply not involved. But DEEPLY unhappy?

Not wanting to learn??? Really? Colleges here have to turn away students. Even community colleges are busting at the seams. Trade schools are packed.

I know a lot of kids who have no direction. I know many who have quit school or graduated and do nothing. None of them are dumb. I know none who have been dumbed down. The math I took in high school, they get in grammar school. Sciences are taught in the 6th and 7th grade that I took in college. Every kid I know can out perform me on a computer and can fill you in on every new electronic gizmo out there. That includes the ones who have dropped out of high school.

I suspect the problem described is money rather than education. But that too is another discussion. But the claim that children today are all unhappy? That's simply nonsense. Apathetic? Did you not see how involved young people were in tha last US election? Not the usual Young Republicans Club but kids across every racial, cultural and economic spectrum.Motherhood abused? Check the laws protecting both mother and father in the workplace during and after pregnancy. Removed Femininity? Huh? By encouraging young women to use their minds?

I suspect that some here have had a verybad experience in school. I went to Catholic schools for 12 years and endured physical punishment but oddly enough was always encouraged to think outside the box. Indoctrinated?

It is a role of society to get people to conform to certain norms in order for the society to function for the benefit of most. School works towards that goal. Students learn to read and write; they also learn to be clean, balance a check book, drive a car, that work is a good thing if you plan on supporting yourself and welfare is an option if you don't (but not the best option), that our country is good (Be it the US, China, Japan, whatever).

I wonder if these unhappy children are genuinely unhappy or simply frustrated by the current economy. Or are they enduring the normal problems of adolescence? Are the knife bearers the exception or the rule? Is your glass always half empty?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:34 PM

Sinsull referred to home schooling in Alaska which, in terms of its (lack of) registration and momitoring requirements, is probably more akin to the current situation in the UK that the Badman report has reviewed than our European neighbours or American 'cousins' in other States

Coincidentally, some of the issues discussed here about the UK were also the subject of a recent article in The Anchorage Daily News

Home school: Making the grade?

"Home-schooling has a long history in Alaska. In 1939, the territory started a correspondence program for rural residents who lived where there were no schools.

Correspondence programs were a hybrid -- home schooling, but with some state oversight.

In 1997, then-Sen. Loren Leman cleared any ambiguity about state oversight by sponsoring a law that gave complete freedom to parents. He and other legislators also did away with regulations that said certain subjects needed to be studied.

Some parents home-school for religious reasons. Some because their child has learning disabilities and needs special one-on-one attention that schools don't offer. Some because they don't like the public school social environments where their kids are bullied. And others because they think their kid will get more out of individualized instruction.

So, what's the actual issue here? What's the harm in at least requiring parents to register that they are home schooling their kids?

Narda Butler, a home-school mother and board member of the Anchorage Frontier Charter School who has worked with home-schooling kids for years, is a home-school advocate who wants accountability.

"I come from a background where I really enjoy having the freedom to make curriculum choices... but I also want kids to be adequately prepared."

"I find it very, very scary that you can home-school under Alaska law in a way that has very, very limited accountability." "

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:58 PM

The thing that worries me most about home schooling is the need for science education, which involves expensive equipment and has safety implications which could not be met at home. And it is a subject which is needed in the modern world. I suppose the same problems would arise with other practical subjects such as metalwork.

There is also the suspicion that a deliberate avoidance of science may be one of the causes of home schooling where religion lies behind it. That worries me.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:21 PM

I can't speak to home education in the UK (although I would imagine things aren't terribly different between the two countries in that regard), but I do have some experience with it here in the US.

I home schooled my son for a year when he was about ten years old. He was gifted/learning disabled, and the school system in the area where we lived did not have the resources to be able to serve him adequately, and they were really messing him up. I am grateful that it was possible for me to do that, because the alternative would have been very bad for my son.

I agree that there are a lot of parents who home school who are fairly extreme in their religious views, but there are also a lot of people who home school because they see the schools as not being the best learning environments for their kids. The statistics show that people who are home schooled tend to be far ahead of their peers, academically, so maybe the parents who home school for this reason are on to something.

Obviously, not all parents can home school, but the option should be available for those who want to make the commitment of time energy that is required for the benefit of their children.

On the subject of home schooled children not having the opportunity to develop social skills, there may be some for whom this is a problem, but most home schooling parents make a huge effort to provide opportunities for social development for their kids. In my case, my son and I belonged to a group of home schooling families who would get together regularly so that our kids could do things in a group setting. Some of them were purely social or recreational in nature, and some of them were educational and/or sports related.

And all of these kids have other opportunities for socializing. My son had friends outside of the academic setting, for instance, the kids of my friends, and also through Boy Scouts. Some home schooled kids have social contacts at their churches or little league, or swim clubs, or other organizations they belong to.

My son had poor social skills as a child, but that was because of his learning disabilities, and those problems were made much, much worse by his experiences in the public schools prior to my home schooling him, because there is a culture in many public schools of students ridiculing and bullying children who are different for one reason or another, and many teachers feed into that culture themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:25 PM

By the way, my son is doing great now. He has an undergraduate university degree (bachelor degree) and a very good job. He wants to go back to school at some point and get his masters degree. He as tons of friends and no problems with his social skills.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:28 PM

Oh heavens!

Come ON, people, lighten UP!

Look, home education is really simple! It's so simple that you'd not believe it.

My daughter spent 10 years, (got that?) TEN YEARS in this wonderful system that so many of you idolise. During that time, I watched a gifted and beautiful child literally switch off. She was terrified of getting on the wrong side of teachers, not doing her homework, being late etc. She sat in hot classrooms where windows weren't allowed to be open fully, in case little junior threw himself out...and where the kids had to ask *permission* from the teachers to remove their blazers before they expired over their desks!

Sod that for a game of control! Yeesh!

WHY do people seem to think that school should, for the most part, so often be shitty? Why do people think that their children should have to endure what they did, because it's 'normal'?

It's anything BUT normal!

NEVER, EVER EVER for the rest of your lives will you spend you entire working day in the company of other people who are ALL exactly the same age! Never.

We take our kids OUT of society, where they've been quite happy since birth (or once were, before the Conveyor Belt of Life shoved them into 'Pre School Learning Alliances')....In that society they saw people of all ages, smooth, wrinkled, tall, short...grannys, grandpa's, aunts, uncles, children of friends, older friends, older/younger cousins....and what do we do?

We shove them into a place where everyone's the same age. We make them wear ridiculous uniforms, of ties and hot shirts, despite global warming..and..just to show them how REALLY intelligent the teachers are, we make them wear...BLAZERS too! So much for the science there, then.....

But, we make them do this because...WE had to do this...and because WE had to do this, and our parents before us, it must be RIGHT!

It ain't.

It's crap.

But, people are only now starting to wake up to it.

Fast forward....

You're at a job interview..and on that table is this:

"OK, Butternose, we'll employ you, but these are our conditions, our 'charter' if you like, and without you adhering to these, you won't get the job, got it? Good. Here they are.

You will be polite to your boss at all times, even when he humiliates you in front of your colleagues.

You will never answer back, not even if he is a nasty little bully whom Hitler would have had as his second in command.

You must wear our uniform at ALL times, and if you want to remove any part of it, no matter if it's 170 in the shade, you must ask OUR permission, and...we have the right to decline your request, whereas you have no rights at all.

You must work hard all day long, apart from short breaks during morning and afternoon and a lunch hour. During this time, should your colleagues beat the shit out of you, threaten you or sexually abuse you, we will not be interested, or....we will show the minimum amount of interest, just what we have to do 'legally' because, hey, ALL jobs are like this and you have to learn to deal with that one!

You can only have your holiday at certain times of the year. You will be taken to court if you try to take it at other times of the year. We are not interested if you cannot afford to take it during the weeks we designate, nor if you cannot move on the beach, once you get there, because all the other workplaces are also on holiday. Tough shit, baby.

You must attend work early to have your breakfast here, your tea here and do you afterwork work here, so that we KNOW you are doing it. The afterwork work will be given every single night, and we expect it to be returned at the correct time. If you do not do this, you will be punished, either by having no breakk time at all (hey, that's a good deal, because at least you won't get the arse kicked out of you) or..you can stay behind after work in detention, writing out "I must finish my Afterwork Work on time, at ALL times!"

If you are caught talking to your colleagues when you are supposed to be working, you will be punished.

If you wriggle on your chair, you will be punished.

If you laugh during work time, you will be punished.

If you dare to take your jacket off, without our *permission* you will be punished.

You will be tested on a VERY regular basis. In fact, we may test you so much that you may think you've gone mad, but...we accept no excuses. Tests are tests and humans are designed to have them. We know this because we've paid a very expensive Think Tank to tell us.

At the end of each working year, you will be not only tested, but....examined! If you do not pass the correct amount of exams, with the correct grades, you will be......punished.

We do all of these things to ensure that our workforce turns out well-adjusted spirits, who love coming to their workplace and we hope you appreciate that fact.

Oh...and just one last thing, we will not be paying you for any of this at all.

If you try to work from home, we will stop you. This is because we know that anyone who works from home is abused or...an abuser. Also, they think 'outside the box' which is extremely dangerous when we want you to live in Tickytackyboxland.

What's that junior? Pete Seeger wrote a song about that? This is what we mean! We don't want anyone knowing facts like THAT!

We want our workforce to not question, just DO. That's what builds a country. Never forget that you are Human Resources. If anyone tells you that you are a free person, you must ignore them, because you are no longer free, other than at work, of course, so long as you stick to The Rules.

Punishment is incredibly easy to avoid. You simply have to learn to do as we tell you and your lives will chug along easily, until you die.

Now, be a good prole...and sign The Contract just here:

..............................

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:30 PM

Education is not simply about learning. I could have taught my kids Maths and English, probably to a better level than they received. I could teach them the sciences, in the main and have a good go at the arts. What I could not teach them is how to interact with people other than the family. The thing sadly lacking in home tuition is real life. Nasty as it can be at times life is best experienced, not taught.

And yes, I do have mixed experiences. 5 kids - 3 went through the state system with no more problems than most but the youngest, twins, were subject to a unacceptable amount of bullying. Just because they were different. The last straw was a teacher telling us that it may be better if they were in different classes, to stop them being a target! Huh? The way we handled it was to find a better school. Not remove them altogether.

Regards

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:31 PM

Here is a link to the laws of each state regarding home schooling. Fascinating. Some require nothing but the parent's decision to home school - no testing, no reporting.




http://www.hslda.org/laws/default.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:32 PM

Hmmmm...that's strange, no-one seems to be signing up to the job...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:35 PM

But the school environment is not real life. It's a very artificial envronment, and one that, once out of school, people will never encounter again. Schools do not prepare people for the real world. That's why so many people who are deemed "most likely to succeed" while in school, so often fall flat on their faces once they get out into the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:36 PM

The Villan, some children do go to school armed, for protection AND to use to intimidate other children. Maybe the schools you've had experience with don't, but there are many out there that do. Not all schools are the same

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:37 PM

And by the way, not everyone has the option of putting their kids in a better school.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:54 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:28 PM

errrr....................................

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:59 PM

Hey, have some of you forgotten???????

Your children are YOURS, albeit for a short time!

YOU are the ones who taught them everything they knew, before they went to school! YOU taught them to talk, to walk, to eat, to laugh, to smile....

Why the hell have you all given up, because 'someone' decided that only an 'official' teacher can teach!

We are ALL teachers! And THAT is what has been so desperately overlooked for so very long.

ALL you have to do is teach your child a LOVE of reading and the rest...is history!

From books they will find the world, from walks they will find the world, from talks they will find the world, from the internet they will find the world....from LOVE they will FIND the world....

And it will NOT be a world filled with alcohol, and yet more photos of in yer face drunken nights at yet another partyparty...but something that we used to have, so long ago, something that we have lost.....

Wonder, Time, Amazement.



Yes, for some, school is absolutely right, because they need competition, facts, figures, tests, absolutely thrive on it....but for the rest of us, it's shite, and most of us can recall only one or two brilliant teachers that we not only liked, but loved. Why? Because they treated us like people, made us feel wanted, made us feel intelligent, made us feel we could reach for the stars...and touch them...


Here, a Myspace page that's a little different to the 'many'...one that belongs to a Home Educated child, who nearly gave up on life after 10 years in The System.

Nonny Isabella


So, please, don't give me this shite about Home Ed parents all being nutters, abusers, thickos, who can't add 2 and 2 together. We simply choose to never live within the parellel lines of life that have been laid down for so many.

Yes, there are a few Home Ed parents who are a little odd, but then there are also many In The System Ed parents who are also odd. It's life. But most of us are doing this out of love, and desperation too, because without doing it, some of us would have lost our children to suicide and depression...and NO-ONE, NO 'INSTITUTION' has the right to cause that, just because so many of us have become so indoctrinated into never being able to see 'another way'.

Education Otherwise

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:01 PM

Say what you want, the class (forgive the pun)system is alive and well in schools

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:18 PM

Tickytackyboxland.

What's that junior? Pete Seeger wrote a song about that?

errr no - not exactly
Little Boxes

any more 'facts'?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:26 PM

"So, please, don't give me this shite about Home Ed parents all being nutters, abusers, thickos, who can't add 2 and 2 together."

You need to re-read ALL of the above posts. Not one person has stated that.

"Why the hell have you all given up, because 'someone' decided that only an 'official' teacher can teach!"

Who has given up? Why the histrionics?

Do you home school your children? Fine. It is a legal and perfectly acceptable option. Again - read the posts above.

I didn't. But I was deeply involved in my son's education, the school's activities, day to day classroom events. I supervised the homework and integrated his lessons into our daily life. I taught when he needed a different approach in order to comprehend a concept.

Recently, a young man who had been home schooled went on a murder spree and killed several people. He was angry at his mother and pastor who kept such tight control of him that he had no privacy. He couldn't read a book or magazine without their approval. he could not watch TV. His CD collection was confiscated and destroyed.

No one here is saying that this is the norm for home schooling. Your overly dramatic pictures of desperately unhappy children plodding to abusive public schools and home again to disinterested parents is also not the norm.

To get back to the original post - I don't and didn't home school. I know many parents who do and to a man (woman) it is a difficult task which they take very seriously. Some have strong religious convictions and simply do not want their children exposed to contrary teachings. Some have leanring disabled children who were getting lost in the system. All the children are well educated and normal in every sense. Those who also had interaction with other children in a school setting seemed (Iam not an expert) better adjusted and more social.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:58 PM

I don't think we can really use killing sprees as an indication of anything at all in this context. If we consider it in the home schooling context, then we will have to also address the problem of the killing sprees in public schools in the US that have become so common, the schools are forced to have actual security guards patrolling their campuses and require students to wear photo ID while on the school campus at all times.

Also, of the parents whose children are being schooled because of learning disabilities, those children would have poor social skills regardless of where they were schooled. That just comes with the territory of having learning disabilities, but that problem is made much worse by the school systems. That's why the majority of young people in reform schools have learning disabilities. The schools are really messing them up.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:59 PM

errr no - not exactly
Little Boxes

any more 'facts'?


"...and they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same..."

..is what I was getting at, but I guess it went over the heads of some...so intent are they is scoring points..

It's a 'competitive school thing'...maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:02 PM

no Lizzie it's simply a question of getting your facts correct before you start one of your 'passionate' posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:33 PM

Thank you Carol. That was precisely my point. A killing spree by a home schooled child is no more indicative of the norm than an unhappy experience in public school(US public sschool in this context) is.

Lizzie seems to see only black and white (and before you go off on me I don't mean racially). Your public school experience was bad so all public schools are bad. Your home schooling experience was good so all homeschooling is good.
Then you take the giant leap that anyone who does not home school is bad/lazy/unloving/etc etc etc. And any child in public school is both unhappy and hopelessly restricted in his thinking.

In the process you belittle schools, teachers and students and always with borderline hysterical "passion".
One person stated that in his experience home schooling parents are somewhat neurotic/odd. At least six, including me, described different experiences. But on you harp:
"So, please, don't give me this shite about Home Ed parents all being nutters, abusers, thickos, who can't add 2 and 2 together. We simply choose to never live within the parellel lines of life that have been laid down for so many.

Yes, there are a few Home Ed parents who are a little odd, but then there are also many In The System Ed parents who are also odd. It's life. But most of us are doing this out of love, and desperation too, because without doing it, some of us would have lost our children to suicide and depression...and NO-ONE, NO 'INSTITUTION' has the right to cause that, just because so many of us have become so indoctrinated into never being able to see 'another way'."

Again, why the histrionics? Why the name calling and belittling? Most here are trying to have an intelligent discussion of an important issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:58 PM

One of the reasons I would not want to pull my daughter out of Secondary school, is becuase she has to be among people wether she likes it or not.
If she was at home, she would be in her bedroom most of the time, not wanting to meet people.

Unfortunately one of the problems with Autistic people.

She is bright academically, but lacks the basic skills to survive in the real world.

She is not happy about having to go to school, but touch wood she does not complain and goes becuase that is what she is expected to do.

I have very close links with the special Needs unit and the top people in the school and we have just held a meeting to decide how to bring the basic skills side of things into her school life. It was a very productive meeting with lots of good ideas and things that will be done.

So although in some ways I would like to do home education, I still think the balance is in favour of her going to school.

We moved to a very rural area to try and help her and we reviewed the schools well before we moved there. She loves where we live.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:59 PM

from Jack Campin

I've met a few parents involved in this over the years. Without exception they were all neurotic obsessional cranks

SINSHULL what was that you said Say it out loud so all the class can hear...something about nobody said what? Speak up, don't mumble

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:09 PM

"We simply choose to never live within the parellel lines of life that have been laid down for so many."

Really?

Do you or anyone in your family work for a living? Have your children been vaccinated? Do you pay taxes? Vote? Obey the law, any law? Have a driver's license? Insurance of any type? Do your children wear clothes or run around naked? Sneakers or T shirts? Do they see a dentist occasionally? Do they know who Superman is? Batman? Disney? Sesame Street? Michael Jackson?
What do they read? Any video games?
You hav a Facebook page, the ultimate parallel line trap of the masses.

Never????
Another hyperbole?