BS: Home Education UK

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 12:41 AM

Garbage science? I guess someone is calling the educators and psychologists who specialize in gifted/learning disabled people, practitioners of "garbage science". There's nothing wrong with someone like Einstein being gifted/LD. But the thought sure seems to be threatening to some people.

http://www.slideshare.net/drummosh/twice-exceptional

http://www.gifted.uconn.edu/nrcgt/newsletter/spring98/sprng984.html

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 12:56 AM

Ironically, I haven't seen anything so far from the poster who is throwing around terms like "garbage science" that doesn't itself fall into that category.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:28 AM

"Humph. I wasn't going to go on like that- my point is these were all home schooled. Every single one of the kids in all three of the families are social, well adjusted kids."

Well, I'm glad you did 'go on like that', Ebbie. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:20 AM

You know Lizzie I do sometimes wonder if you actually read what you write and if what you do on these threads consists of googling for a headline that you think supports your case and posting a link to it.

Did you actually read that article on the rise in cervical cancer that you posted to?

Here is what you wrote:

This week school started injecting it's 14 year old girls with the Cervical Cancer jab...en masse...and my heart died a little bit more, not only because they have no real idea what this jab will do, its side-effects on children so young, but because cervial cancer is so on the increase in youngsters, because they are having sex when their bodies aren't ready for it, let alone their minds...

Here is what the article you linked to actually said:

They noticed that between 1979 and 2003, the incidence of cervical cancer had increased by 1.6% per year. When they examined the data more closely, they found that people aged 15 to 19 were driving that increase, with the rate going up 6.8%, Birch told the Teenage Cancer Trust's fifth international conference in London today.

exactly why that is the case is unclear, she says. Most cases of cervical cancer are caused by the human papilloma virus. [My emphasis, not in the original]

So let's get it clear. The increase is in 15-19 year olds and they don't know the reason why.

The vaccine is being given (by choice - not compulsory) to 12 -13 year olds and it is a preventative, so that if (by 15-19 years of age) they do become sexually active there is preventative in place.

In other words the article you posted a link to supports the case for vaccination. Exactly the opposite of what you intended.

Like I said Lizzie, apart from the facts, every word you wrote was true.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:35 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Ebbie - PM
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 12:06 AM

Seems to me that the family you quote Ebbie are a great example of home education. They seem from what you say to exemplify the best in home education. Their parents have used their own skills to pass skills onto their children in the home. I call that home education.

Most of the talented young musicians in the folk music world I have met have done it in their spare time whilst at school and I make no judgement of which is these methods is better or worse.

But one thing is for certain, I bet the Alaskan students you talk about practised on a regular and probably frequent basis in a structured environment of starting with the simplest music and moving onto the more complex. Just as the ones who did it in their spare time did.

There are people who play by ear of course and are self-taught - but they all practise and they do it in a structured way. I have never met anyone who could simply pick up an instrument and play it without any musical education and practise whatsoever.

But Lizzie quotes it as an example of fine "home education" without really understanding what went on.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:38 AM

"But Lizzie quotes it as an example of fine "home education" without really understanding what went on."

Oh f*ck off, you patronising prat.....

And if Joe now decides to ban me from Mudcat, then those words are worth every penny, because you really are a real pain in the arse, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 06:23 AM

Garbage science? I guess someone is calling the educators and psychologists who specialize in gifted/learning disabled people, practitioners of "garbage science"

No, I'm calling YOUR reasoning about Einstein garbage, and saying it brings other people's work into undeserved disrepute. (Neither of the links you provided says anything at all in support of your assertion).

Do you really want people given diagnostic labels on so little information as you've been doing with Einstein? You've been saying that the syndromes you've been talking about are organic, probably caused by variations in brain anatomy, and not to be defined behaviourally - and here you are confidently diagnosing them based on no more than anecdotes about behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 09:40 AM

Oh f*ck off, you patronising prat.....

And if Joe now decides to ban me from Mudcat, then those words are worth every penny, because you really are a real pain in the arse, Dave.

Well Lizzie if Joe decides to ban you that is his prerogative. I shall certainly not complain. And actually whilst you believe your words are worth a lot, certainly in monetary terms as you have just suggested - they aren't. Unless unlike the rest of us you are getting paid for writing on here. Somehow I doubt it.

You can slag me off all you like Lizzie and frequently have. When you gush over artists I rarely comment. And I rarely comment on your other posts. I only comment when I believe your are writing utter tosh.

If you believe that is patronising, I do wonder how you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 09:56 AM

Ebbie,
That is an amazing story. Fetal alcohol syndrome is an overwhelming disability. To take it on multiple times and succeed even once is incredible.
Has your niece ever written down how she went about it?
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:50 AM

I'm not the one who first suggested that Einstein was gifted/LD, and the reasons I gave did not first come from me. The only reason I'm even familiar at all with those ideas is because I got them from the people who are experts on people who are gifted/LD.

When I say that learning disabilities are not just behavioral, I'm talking about what they are and how they are experienced. Observed behaviors are a part of the evaluation process (along with other things), and behaviors are the criteria that define them for the purpose of the professionals who work with people who have learning disabilities (and giftedness), but those criteria do not help anyone understand how they are experienced by those who have them. Which was the point I was making previously.

I have come to the conclusion that the person who is so threatened by the idea that Einstein could be gifted/LD really has no background whatever in any aspect of education, or in learning disabilities and giftedness. The things I have been saying, I got from the professionals and experts whose help I sought out when I was advocating for my son in the schools. Anyone for whom these things are totally unknown and unheard of can't possibly have any background whatever in these areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 12:31 PM

Folkiedave, you have described well the method the Zahasky family uses. The family practises a great deal and I remember when Abby (Abigail) used to stand alongside them with a mando or a fiddle in hand and just strike the occasional lick. She still doesn't play on every number but she now has her own little band with kids her own age and they sound good.

Sins, it is an amazing story, in my mind. Linda and Jack started out taking in foster kids and then started adopting some of them. Even now they are an emergency drop for kids of all ages.

Linda admired my mother a great deal- over the years my mother took in more than 30 children, ending up adopting two of them. She had 9 kids of her own and Linda quips that she is just like her grandmother: She had two kids and adopted nine.

How she and her husband do it, I don't quite know. I do know they are very hands on people, spending lots of time with their family and Linda also attends all kinds of conferences and seminars. They also are outdoorsy people- their main away-from-activity over the years has been camping in National and State Parks. In Oregon, where they live, adoptive/foster parents park for free.

Two years ago they bought a large motor home and took the whole family on a three-month tour of America, spending several weeks in the Washington DC area. This was while they were a-waiting the delivery and installation of a custom-built mobile home that would fit all of them. They parked the mobile home on their daughter an son in law's land and Linda often cooks the evening meal at the main house for all of them, including her daughter and son in law..

Linda and Jack's daughter, Jacqui, is cast in the same mold as her mother- and is perhaps even more so. She is a Nurse Practitioner and a midwife as well as teaching nursing in George Fox College.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,Daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 01:00 PM

I am a 15 year old girl and I have been reading this thread. Some really horrible things have been said about people like me and my friends, and I don't think the person who has said them really knows very much about what is going on in schools in England right now. Maybe they have read certain headlines and think that they know what's really going on, but even a naive little 15 year old like me knows that newspapers write what they think will sell more papers, and you have to be careful what you believe. We are having our cervical cancer jabs next week at my school. We are all 15 and I will be 16 next month. None of my friends is having sex yet and neither am I. I really resent what this Lizzie Cornish has said about all young girls in England having sex when they are not even teenagers or in their early teens and basically being slags. Do you think that we are not clever enough to be able to make responsible choices? It seems that you think we can't make these choices because we are at schools which are abusing us, and make us want to jump off roofs. I am really really sorry to disappoint you, but we are fine. Yes, school does suck in certain ways because everyone has subjects they don't like and teachers who you don't get on with, and groups of girls who can be bitches (I am at a girl's school, by the way). But isn't that just life? If I didn't go to school I wouldn't see my friends every day. I probably wouldn't even have most of my friends because we all live in different villages in a rural area, and school is what brought us together in the first place. None of us is going crazy because of exams, and we are in our GCSE year. Most of my friends and I are doing 12 or 13 GCSEs, and we are getting mostly As. Yes, our school makes us work hard, but it's a good school, and we still do babysitting, or have weekend jobs, and still have plenty of time to do other things as well. I just got back from waitressing Sunday lunch at the pub in my village. This weekend I also did all my homework, and some of us slept over at our friend's house, and then we went to Sheep Fair yesterday. If I was being driven crazy with the pressure of my exams, would I have time for all of that? My friends and I also go to folk festivals, even though they are not folkies, because I have brought four different friends to folk festivals in the last two years and they love it. So we are not going into town at night and getting off our faces on alcopops or whatever you said. We are going to festivals and ceilidhs!

I also think what you have said about working mothers is rubbish. My mum works, and she is my best friend. She has made loads of sacrifices for me. We moved house so I could go to the school where I am now. Now she works from home, but even if she couldn't do that I would know how lucky I am because I can talk to her about anything. I have friends whose mums stay at home all day, and it doesn't mean they get on better. She is partly paying for me to go to Japan on exchange next year with my school because she thought it would be a good opportunity. Before you start telling me how spoilt I am, I have to earn 1/3 of the money myself. She could not give me these opportunities if she didn't work.

I am sorry if anybody feels so traumatised by school that they feel they can't stay there and I am sure home schooling is fine for those people. But please do not tar the rest of us as knife carrying psychos who are all on the point of mental breakdown, who have to spend every night getting drunk to blot out the pain, because our lives are just not like that. We are perfectly fine. But thanks so much for your concern. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: maeve
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 01:06 PM

Thanks for your post, Guest Daisybell. I am delighted to read your description of your life in England.

maeve

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 01:30 PM

Well, well, well....

Daisy...if you had read what I'd said, er....in a little more depth, you'd see that I'd said that for some children school is the best thing to have ever happened to them. Obviously, you are one of those childre, as are your friends.

You would also have read that I said I have, and always have had, the utmost respect for brilliant teachers who care deeply about their children.

OK?

I also said that the cases of cervical cancer, amongst younger girls is on the increase, and that this was due to many of them having sex at a younger and younger age.

Sorry, Daisy, but that's exactly what's going on, because I too have young people for children, as does your Mum, and I can assure you that not everyone is down at the local Sheep Fair picking daisies.

I'm really pleased you're all doing 13 GCSEs and getting A's too. 13 As is some accomplishment, especially when you're obviously not having to study too hard, having loads of time to party and go out.

I bow to you all in respect.

Sorry, but I'm still a little worried, to put it mildly, about the jab for Cervical Cancer being given en masse in our schools at the moment.

I'm also worried about the fact that GPs are aiding and abetting illegal acts by giving out contraception to under 16s without their parents knowledge, but I'm sure you can talk to your Mum about that one, as I'm sure she'll understand.

I did not say that ALL young girls are out there having sex with every Tom, Dick and Sebastien, but I can assure you that some are.

I can also assure you that there are many children out there who are suffering very badly at school and who are not as happy as you and your friends. I am on their side.....You need no-one to fight your corner as you are obviously loving every single moment of your school.

However, perhaps you could explain to me why the teachers themselves, last year, at the Annual Conference in Torquay, stated how worried they now are about so many young people, who are showing signs of much mental stress.

They called for a review of the amount of homework being given out, for SATS tests to be stopped (already stopped in Wales and Scotland I believe)...and for far less stress to be put on the children and the teachers also.

Obviously, you are the best school in England, Daisy, so I'd treasure it even more, if I were you.

Did I criticise working mothers? Don't think so......

I did say that many mothers have no choice BUT to go out to work...and I did say that many parents love to boast about how well 'Little Johnny' is doing, when in actual fact, Little Johnny is often falling apart inside under the weight of 27 GCSEs and 57 A Levels, but hey.....I'm sure you read that part with humour...

I've a friend who works in a nursery...OOPS, sorry...a 'pre-school learning alliance' as they call them now, or used to call them, probably sommat else by now....and at the end of each term they have to do a Report on each child, for the parents...

And who has asked for this to be done?

Why, the parents themselves.

Because that way....altogether now...they can say to one another how well 'Baby Johnny' is doing at his pre-school learning alliance, being able to make plasticine alphabet letters and paint 2+2 in day glo paint.

Once, toddlers were just left to play in the sandpit, play with the soft toys, natter on to each other, have their milk and biccies, sing some songs and generally have a real whale of a time! I know, because I used to help them all do it...and then...The Serious Ones took over, started to turn up to Playschools in suits, with briefcases, and Lesson Plans...

And the world got even weirder...................

Maybe you could do an A level in 'What Went Wrong' ?

I hope you get all your GCSEs, and I hope you get all As if that's what makes you happy, Daisy...but...I'd value you as just as much a Wonderful Person if you had no exams, but were kind, caring and loved life.

Life is not Exams.
You are not Exams.

Never let anyone judge you on Exams alone, because it is the person on the inside that counts far, far more than pieces of paper.

I'll show you how ridiculous it is...My daughter chose to take no exams, yet she is still able to get a job. She learnt because she loves learning, not because she had to take an exam at the end of it.

I am 54, and STILL I have to put down what examinations I took, on application forms. Why?   What the ***** does it matter what I did 35 years ago, for one hour in an examination room?

Until society can learn to let go of that, we ain't going far.


Good luck at school, though, Daisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 01:36 PM

From Walter Isaacson's biography of Einstein. He interviewed Einstein about his proble with math:

"One widely held belief about Einstein is that he failed math as a student, an assertion that is made, often accompanied by the phrase "as everyone knows," by scores of books and thousands of websites designed to reassure underachieving students. A Google search of Einstein failed math turns up more than 500,000 references. The allegation even made it into the famous "Ripley's Believe it or Not!" newspaper column.

Alas, Einstein's childhood offers history many savory ironies, but this is not one of them. In 1935, a rabbi in Princeton showed him a clipping of the Ripley's column with the headline "Greatest living mathematician failed in mathematics." Einstein laughed. "I never failed in mathematics," he replied, correctly. "Before I was fifteen I had mastered differential and integral calculus." In primary school, he was at the top of his class and "far above the school requirements" in math. By age 12, his sister recalled, "he already had a predilection for solving complicated problems in applied arithmetic," and he decided to see if he could jump ahead by learning geometry and algebra on his own. His parents bought him the textbooks in advance so that he could master them over summer vacation. Not only did he learn the proofs in the books, he also tackled the new theories by trying to prove them on his own. He even came up on his own with a way to prove the Pythagorean theory. "

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 01:47 PM

Ronald D. Davies is a mathematical genius too. (He wrote 'The Gift of Dyslexia' for those coming late to this thread) He got into terrible trouble at school over this because he ALWAYS knew the answer, in seconds, to the most complicated maths problem, but he couldn't explain how he worked it out.

He couldn't work it out, because he didn't know how he did it, or why his brain worked like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 01:47 PM

From the same biography:



Some researchers claim to detect in Einstein's childhood a mild manifestation of autism or Asperger's syndrome. Simon Baron-Cohen, the director of the autism research center at Cambridge University, is among those. He writes that autism is associated with a "particularly intense drive to systemize and an unusually low drive to empathize." He also notes that this pattern "explains the 'islets of ability' that people with autism display in subjects like math or music or drawing -- all skills that benefit from systemizing."* I do not find such a long-distance diagnosis to be convincing. Even as a teenager, Einstein made close friends, had passionate relationships, enjoyed collegial discussions, communicated well verbally and could empathize with friends and humanity in general.


Isaacson met, spoke with, interviewed Einstein, his friends and colleagues.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 02:02 PM

Well, yes...it's obvious to me that Einstein was on the Autism Circle...many geniuses are...

"Oh no, they're NOT!"

"Oh YES, they ARE!" :0)


If the 'scientists' decide to start removing the autistic gene...when they get the know how, they'll be removing themselves, to a certain extent...because I'd say that the vast majority of their minds are also on the Autism circle, as are musicians, dancers, songwriters, artists, poets..etc..etc.etc..

What a horrible, bland, beige and boring place this world would be without the rainbows shone down by The Autism Circle...

Yes, I know that often it carries with it deep depression and lack of self belief, but my goodness, what absolute shining stars so many autistic circle people are...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 02:08 PM

I have read some of Ron Davis' materials. My grand niece suffers from a severe form of autism and since the age of 2 has been receiving daily instruction from specialists both in her home and at school. Davis' successes have been with higher functioning autistics. He himself explains that his process for drawing out a child with autism is threefold:
Individuation
Identity Development
Social Integration

He states:

"If the person cannot experience some form of orientation, then the Facilitator will not continue to work with that person. Without becoming oriented, the individual cannot experience or develop a sense of "self" as distinct from their environment."

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 02:20 PM

not genralizing too much there lizzie, glad to know you have a handle on reality.

as for the kids having ore sex nowadays than they ever did, how about instaed of lessening sex edication give them more.

families that don't give a toss what their kids are up to, so they look for affection others ways.

the media and advertisers sexualising kids at an ever earlier age...
the playboy stuff for example, WTF were parents thinking buying their young girls the playboy duvet covers, do they not know that playboy is a lads mag?   what message is that sending to kids.

daisy,
i will not patronize you. you sound like you have a fantastic school and an even better mum.
you are very lucky, i am glad you are enjoying school. so sound very responsible. good luck with the germany trip and with everything you do in the future.

as for this jab, i am glad it has come at last, it won't make kids think they are anymore protected than before, it won't make them go out and have sex unless they feel ready to.


take care all

jade x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 02:36 PM

"as for the kids having ore sex nowadays than they ever did, how about instaed of lessening sex edication give them more."

Lordy! Saints Preserve Us, jade..! :0)

There ISN'T anymore that they can know...!!

Did you know that the wonderful Think Tank in Exeter University decided that a new way to avoid teenage pregnancies was for children to learn about Oral and Anal Sex. That way, they could lick, fidget with, fill each other's bums, satisfy their er...cravings...and NOT get pregnant! Yes! Isn't that wonderful!

And...the best part of it, is....it's TRUE! How do I know? I rang Exeter Uni up and spoke to the Department that had been telling this to children....The er....'professor' who'd come up with this highly questionable and decidely dodgy idea wasn't there at the time, but they assured me he wasn't a paedeophile, but someone who was very interested in ensuring that young girls didn't get pregnant...

So, there we have it! Let's go down to the parks and tell our children all about Anal and Oral Sex...Yup, we can sit on the benches with them and discuss it all in detail....even if they don't want to listen, because they'd rather be thinking about getting some bubblegum or a chocolate bar...(although quite what they'd be imagining DOING with it, I dread to think....

Now of course, if you or I actually did that, we'd be hoiked up by The Powers That Be and charged with Highly Dodgy Discussions with Young People, but the teachers are out there having these discussions every day...and believe you me, some of them are VERY unhappy about it.

"families that don't give a toss what their kids are up to, so they look for affection others ways."

Some families don't, that's very, very true...and...unlike Daisy (and the 13 GCSEs) I realise, of course, that you're generalising there....

"the media and advertisers sexualising kids at an ever earlier age...
the playboy stuff for example, WTF were parents thinking buying their young girls the playboy duvet covers, do they not know that playboy is a lads mag?   what message is that sending to kids."

Couldn't agree more, jade. Been there, done that, had the Booby Bratz Dolls (Paedeophiles R Us) conversations with Woolworths Managers and the 'Paedophilia Girls Range' conversatoins with NEXT.
The head buyer in NEXT actually ended up in tears, not because I was raging at her, but because she was now the oldest 'on the board' and the younger ones couldn't see ANYTHING wrong with the clothes they were wanting little girls to wear. She was a Mum, with two daughters, aged 7 and 9...and she'd seen them dancing at a party with their friends, in the most suggestive way. It had scared the shite out of her...

A whole generation (with, obviously, some exceptions, Daisy) who've been 'groomed'....

Worrying, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,Daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 02:51 PM

In all honesty, I didn't respond to this thread to be patronised, I simply wanted to state my point of view.

I know exactly what you're trying to imply, and just because I don't fufill your idea of a chavvy teenage mum having unprotected, underage sex round the back of the bike sheds because school and society has, in some way, 'poisoned' me and made me unable to think for myself, it means I'm some kind of privately educated toff that is completely ignorant to what goes on in 'reality', simply because I'm from a rural area and I'm taking 13 GCSES. It's not uncommon for students that go to decent schools to take that many exams, which I would have thought you'd know seeing as you're so enlightened in this area.

I go to a state school, and I'm still encouraged to try my best by most of my teachers, as are my friends, and even though some of them I'm not exactly chummy with, I don't feel like I'm "bullied" and neither are my classmates. Me and my friends aren't in the minority because we're not on the brink of suicide and carring knives in our g-strings. To put it frankly, I don't understand why you think you'd know better than I do, when I am actually a student, about what goes on in terms of sex, violence and exam pressure in my own school. In some schools, it is pretty bad and there is teenage pregnancy and knife crime, and I acknowledge that I'm lucky that my school isn't like that, however, the majority of schools aren't. Even when these things do happen, this is usually because of the individual and their circumstances, it's not a symptom of modern day culture it doesn't affect every school.

I don't know whether you expect me to apologise because I try hard and I'm not out every night shagging myself into oblivion. I do go out and have a good time, and I also work hard, and it's not that uncommon. As for cervical cancer, girls that weren't sexually active before recieving the cervical cancer jab probably aren't now going to go out intent on having sex as much as possible. If girls weren't having sex before they got the jab, I seriously doubt it was the jab that was holding them back- most 12-13 year old girls were probably quite ignorant as to the dangers of cervical cancer before the jab was offered- I know alot of people in my year were, and we're in year 11. Cheers!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:04 PM

lizzie, sorry for the atrotious spelling.

actually i am all for teaching kids about every aspect of sexual behaviour. that way when some lad wants them to do something, if they decide they do or don't want to, they are much more aware of what is involved.
sex on its own should not be demonized however, it is important that they get the facts and understand the emotional responsablities. by keeping things secret, you are actually making it more exciting.

when younger sister was very young, she asked what a picture of a nipple piercing was, mum passed the buck, edi passed the buck, as soon as i told her it was a picture of a booby, she was happy, said ok and moved on to something completely different and didn't think or ask about it anymore.



i was genralizing about modern families, i know alot of the kids still have parents who devote themselves to raising their children, good on them, there are some however, that see kids as just another thing to tick off their list, but don't want them to change their lives in any way.

i think it may be the kids of these sorts of parents who think having kids is easy.
in order to combat this why do we not have those robot babies in schools? look after one of those for a week and see if you still want one.

sorry i know this is way off the thread title.

i cannot comment on home education as i went to school, i cannot say it was the most wonderful experiance ever, but i did make some wonderful friends, without school i probably would have been very lonely.

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:10 PM

daisybell, i am sorry if you thought i was patronizing you, that was not my intention.

of course you know your life better than anyone.
i hope no one was trying to say you were lying or exagerating in any way! i certainly wasn't.

i appreciate your comments here, as i don't have kids or socialise with anyone who does, i have to say that on a day to day basis, i have no idea whats going on for teenagers.

my conclusions come from watching programmes like the jeremy kyle show, whick i acknowledge is a misrepresentaion of teenege mums.

j x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:13 PM

I didn't mean you at all! I meant Lizzie. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:18 PM

"Me and my friends aren't in the minority because we're not on the brink of suicide and carring knives in our g-strings. "

Yikes! you're all wearing G strings?   Whatever happened to sensible navy blue knickers, 'Daisybell'...? :0)

"lizzie, sorry for the atrotious spelling."

jade, you never, EVER think that you need to apologise to me for spelling, grammar, whatever....I knew exactly what you meant.

The witch hunt that has followed me round for years focussed for so long on my grammar and spelling, trying so hard to undermine me, make me feel ignorant and stupid. They never achieved their aim. They did, however, make me fight harder for all of those who are similarly abused in this way...

I do Elizabethan spelling myself...as in I make it up as I go along sometimes, if I can't remember how to spell it.

I read that "Eats Shoots and Leaves' book...or at least, I started to, but I never got past the part where the author told us how she was more upset about the incorrect use of a word, in the reporting of 9/11 than she was about the actual incident itself.

I threw it away at that point....

If someone is more upset about grammar, than over that terrible day and the mountain of sadness it caused, still causes, to this day, then they have a hole in their soul...

You just write as you do, that's way good enough for me, jade...
xx

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:22 PM

Maybe it's my decent education that makes me understand irony. Unfortunately, we're not actually wearing G-strings.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:33 PM

Possibly 'daisybell', possibly.

I always think though, that the world would be a far better place if we returned to the days of cami-knickers...I had to draw out needlework plans for those, from the 1930s...for my Needlework teacher...I got so bored I threw them away....She was the deputy headmistress at the time and loathed me, as she had loathed my brother before me. She was an absolute old boot. I was left handed, so I sewed upside down and back to front, for her....

Of course,as far as I was concerned, SHE was the one who was doing it all arse over elbow, but..such is life in a right-handed world, where the teacher is always correct...and where, just like dyslexic folks, we have to learn 'their way' despite it screwing up our brains, making the messages go in the wrong direction...

Being left handed is pretty hard at times...

I think we should have a National Left Handed Day, where all right-handedness is banned.....

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:37 PM

I don't know why you keep putting my name in quotes. It's just my name.

And I'm also left handed! What a small world. It hasn't caused me that many needleword issues, but I'll get back to you if that occurs

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:38 PM

*needlework

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:40 PM

Did you know that the wonderful Think Tank in Exeter University decided that a new way to avoid teenage pregnancies was for children to learn about Oral and Anal Sex. That way, they could lick, fidget with, fill each other's bums, satisfy their er...cravings...and NOT get pregnant! Yes! Isn't that wonderful!

And...the best part of it, is....it's TRUE! How do I know? I rang Exeter Uni up and spoke to the Department that had been telling this to children....The er....'professor' who'd come up with this highly questionable and decidely dodgy idea wasn't there at the time, but they assured me he wasn't a paedeophile, but someone who was very interested in ensuring that young girls didn't get pregnant...

You know Lizzie it may surprise you to know I don't believe you.

The last time you posted a link it said the opposite of what you said it said.

Why would someone say to a total stranger "He isn't a paedophile" except in response to a question as to whether he was or not. So did you ask if he was?

They must have thought you were crackers!!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:44 PM

Ah well, that'll be your decent education 'Daisybell', you got all the good teachers.

I belong to a time when girls weren't allowed to wear coloured bras under their blouses and had to have the skirts measured to see how many inches they were above the knee...

I went to the worst school in my district, despite passing my 11 plus, because I was desperate to go to the same school as my brother. My brother had failed his 11 plus because...er....he was dyslexic, but no-one knew about it back then...you were just 'slow and dimwitted', according to some, which always puzzled me, as he was never that at all, still isn't.

That's what I mean, about the 13 GCSEs, which is lovely, don't get me wrong, but....my brother could never have coped with that, indeed, none of us ever did, because it was practically unheard of to take more than 8 in those days...if that....but Educayshon wasn't a Corporate Business back then...just a weird place where people measured your skirt lengths...

Coloured bras, eh...Yeesh, am I old or WHAT! I can remember when they first came out! Oh, B***er!   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:44 PM

It is, additionally, daisybell's "decent education", available at many state schools the length and breadth of the land, which enables her to write clearly and lucidly without any trace of sloppy orthographic or grammatical errors, about how life actually is for the majority of today's school students (and not to refer to them patronisingly as "kids"), as opposed to tracts copied and pasted from highly dubious publications and from the sensational gutter press.

Long may her G-strings prosper and her list of GCSEs lengthen.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:55 PM

Because my school is all girls, they still measure our skirts once a week and are strict about uniform, but it doesn't take any focus off getting good grades. Just because things aren't the same now as they were when you were my age, doesn't mean they're worse, they're just different, and in some places they're probably better. Please stop putting my name in quotes, it's annoying.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:00 PM

Lizzie you want everyone to respect your point of view and spurious rantings but the minute a teenager comes on you manage to sneer at them and patronise them.

The worst thing is - I suspect you don't even know you are doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:15 PM

The is a report upon which Lizzie probably based her last rant here

I will leave anyone who is really interested to see if the report says what Lizzie says it says.

But to save you the trouble - it doesn't. I suspect most of you knew that anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:37 PM

The American website "The Public School Parent's Network " carried an article under the heading

"Sex education that delays sexual activity"

This was about
'A new and more effective sex education programme called A PAUSE (Added Power and Understanding in Sex Education) takes a different approach. Based on extensive research at Exeter University's Department of Child Health, it doesn't just focus on the physical aspects of sex, but also addresses the emotional side. So far, around 100 schools have enrolled in this ground-breaking programme.'

It was an idea for peer-led sex education that initially came from similar successful programmes in the USA, where escalating teenage pregnancy rates forced sex education experts to change their approach.
The 'just say no' approach wasn't working on its own.

'A PAUSE takes young people through the biological, emotional and practical aspects of sexual health. Early in secondary school life, teachers and health professionals teach the basic principles of human development, contraception, pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections, illustrating issues with 'real life stories'. Pupils discuss how they would deal with certain situations and decide the best course of action.'

''Peers educators' (16- to 18-year olds) undergo a 25-hour training programme, which enables them to run four classroom sessions with Year Nine students. The sessions focus on dispelling myths about sex and building self-esteem, and although a teacher or A PAUSE supervisor must be present, the peers lead the discussions without intervention.

Dr John Tripp, a consultant paediatrician who is a member of the team behind the A PAUSE programme, says that teenagers should not be pressurised into having sex. They may find it difficult to say 'no' without help. He says: 'Young people should not feel pressured, and should be prepared to deal with the dangers and manage them safely.'

A typical programme may include exploring the reasons why teenagers start having sex, examining media and peer pressure, performing role play and learning assertiveness techniques.'
         
                -------------------------------

The programme became the subject of great debate across the spectrum of the press.

"After reading about the project, Vanessa Feltz wrote in the Sunday Express: "The words 'batty' and 'harebrained' would spring to mind - if the words 'irresponsible' and 'dangerous' hadn't sprung first." The programme was criticised for the training it offers teachers, in which they are asked to consider how they would answer questions about anal sex, oral sex and, most controversially, the question: "What does semen taste like?"

John Rees, director of A Pause at Exeter University, says the furore came after only the second complaint made by a teacher in the 12 years the programme has been running. A Pause is also the only sex education programme in Europe that has been proven to work. Research into how it altered young people's behaviour was published in the British Medical Journal in 1995. It showed a 5% overall reduction in underage sex - that's 13% of those who would have actually had sex.

Rees says: "Young people can ask very challenging questions; we need to be prepared to respond properly. We discuss kissing, but of course we don't teach children how to do it. The same with anal or oral sex. We have to accept that they will ask questions that challenge our own values, and be prepared to answer questions within the framework of the programme by giving them a factually appropriate answer."

He adds wryly: "So with a question such as 'What does semen taste like?', we would advise them to refuse to answer it from a personal point of view. 'I don't know, I'll go away and find out for next week', would not be an appropriate response."

Simon Blake, of the National Children's Bureau and former head of the Sex Education Forum, is frustrated that such debates are still going on. "The question that we should be asking is, given that we are three years in from the teenage pregnancy strategy, what do we need to do next? This question of whether we should teach it has gone on too long; the big question is why are there still 16-year-olds who don't know anything about sex apart from how to spell 'fallopian tubes'?"

But there is much to celebrate. Figures released last week show that teenage pregnancy rates in England - famously the worst in Europe - have fallen for the third year in a row. There were 9% fewer teenage pregnancies in 2001 compared with 1998. In other words, a total of 8,000 pregnancies in girls under 18 have been prevented.

Many agencies, including the Family Planning Association, have welcomed the government's strategy, which is delivered via local authorities through schemes such as A Pause. So why is there still so much controversy over sex education? Blake says: "The issue is that sex education always frightens people, and raises anxieties about how and what to deliver. Mostly, the question for teachers is how parents and community will respond. The real thing we need to be concerned with is saying that sex education is OK."

Angela Phillips, who sits on the independent advisory committee of the teenage pregnancy unit, which runs the strategy, says: "Teachers need proper training to deliver sex education. Not everybody can handle it. But anybody who's doing sex education in school will be faced with questions that are deliberately intended to provoke. One of the ways pupils respond to embarrassment is to try to raise a laugh. As teachers you've got to be able to deal with it."

But Phillips argues that responsibility for the way we talk about sex is not just with the teachers, but society as a whole. "The problem with sex education is a collective embarrassment about sex. Kids are up against the overwhelming feeling that sex is naughty and probably nasty - that's the atmosphere in which young people are brought up to think about sex. You've got to be able to deal with it calmly, in a dignified and non-sniggering way."

And while the criticisms about A Pause make good headlines, Blake says they undermine the good and effective work that the government, schools and children are doing. "We know that if you politicise something it just makes people anxious. We've got to stop politicising sex education. It's not helpful for children and it's not helpful for those delivering it."

from   
The Guardian, Tuesday 4 March 2003

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:42 PM

Nope, that wasn't the report, actually.

The report was in the Daily Mail...(Boomf Boomf Boomf, as they all tumble down like Matchstick Men in shocked, outraged horror at the very mention of that name!)

I was kinda stunned and thought..."Aha, here goes The Mail again!" as I've heard such bad things about it on Mudcat...so I thought I'd ring up Exeter Uni, as they'd put that in the report, to find out if it was true or not...it was.

Ring them up, Dave, if you don't believe I did it...ring them up. You have my full permission.

Then you can put it in your 'Things Lizzie Says' book where you can cross reference every word I've ever put down...



"Long may her G-strings prosper and her list of GCSEs lengthen."

If you get your G string caught in your GCSEs, could it be a problem, Sweetum? Where've you been? I haven't seen you for a while. I expect you've been yattering Above Stars, as opposed to Below...

Can G strings lengthen also?   (bemused smiley)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:46 PM

Thanks for that Emma. I can see that the man at the centre of this is a consultant paediatrician.

I wonder if that's why Lizzie asked if he was a paediophile!!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:47 PM

Has anyone noticed that the more 'sex education' the kids are given, the more teenage pregnancies we have?

Hmmmmmmmmm......


We had 30 minutes of Mrs. Smallworth squirming, as she sat on her desk, telling us The Facts of Life....whilst we looked at one another in disbelief....and afterwards we mumbled "Surely our parents don't do ***that***" :0)

Girls were told on their own, as were the boys, who had a male teacher tell them 'their side'.....

We didn't discuss our side with the lads, and they didn't discuss their side with us.

And in the worst school in the neighbourhood, which is where I went, not one of my friends, or any other classmates in the whole of my year became pregnant. It was very rare in those days...

Of course, I am going back to 1356, but........

So, the 'scientific' ones might assume that the less you tell children, the more they are able to live their lives as er...children...

But, what do I know?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:50 PM

well found emma!!!

in folkie terms sex is not such a big issue, most of the songs we like and sing involve sex or murder, both is better!!

having said that to some non folkie friends recently, they got rather embarrassed.

it is the same as discussing medical conditions, it is biology, pure and simple. emotions are much harder to disscuss, without making someone feel bad because they don't feel a certain way.

take care all

jade x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:54 PM

Yeah, but.....what happened to LOVE, jade?

Sexsexsexsexsexsexsexsex......

It is nothing more, to many these days, than a biological function...

Once, it was so much more....

And another Ripple of Preciousness floats out 'lost' into the Pond of Life

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:59 PM

From my post....

'Based on extensive research at Exeter University's Department of Child Health, it doesn't just focus on the physical aspects of sex, but also addresses the emotional side.'

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:04 PM

"lizziecornish" asks where have I been, having failed to notice that I contributed to this thread two days ago. I repeat the post so that she might peruse, if not understand it, although the latter is doubtful:

From: The Borchester Echo - PM
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 11:26 AM

There are two musicians I know who are both Cambridge graduates and who were also diagnosed as dyslexic when small children. They considered this not a "gift" but a blasted nuisance. Each, however, received appropriate remedial tuition and are now where they are, playing in top bands.

I know another with Asberger's Syndrome who refuses all therapy or treatment. He's a total pain in the arse, as is anyone else with this condition, and is unable to play in bands with others.

None of which has anything whatsoever to do with "home education" (cranky or not) but it certainly exposes how preposterous it is to regard someone with a learning difficulty as somehow "special". Appropriate intervention by skilled experts can and does get round or overcome such problems and enables a more or less "normal" life (whatever that is).

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:06 PM

"I wonder if that's why Lizzie asked if he was a paediophile!!"

Nope...I asked because I'm really kinda weirdly worried about folks who want to talk to 13 year olds about oral and anal sex.....

But again, what do I know, I'm just an old fashioned gal.....

By the way, do you think that paedeophiles aren't in the medical profession, Dave? They are *everywhere*, especially where the children are.

As I said before, the headmaster of a school in North Devon was sent to prison for that very thing. There is no National Curriculum for sex education, it is left to the individual head teachers...unless, of course, they've changed the goalposts..

Oh look, here we are.....Let's all head for Scotland!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:07 PM

Oh yes, Sweetums, I saw that post...I just meant "where have you been?" in general...not seen a lot of you for a while..that's all...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:10 PM

That is not entirely accidental, nor a matter of regret to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:11 PM

The thing is, Emma...we were only taught about love....sex was part of love..the two went together.

I dunno....it just seems to me that rampant sex hasn't brought a great deal of happiness (now, boys, calm down) ;0)

Schools have been obsessed with it, the whole medical profession has become obsessed by it!

WHAT do they think used to happen, in Days of Yore when people weren't told anything at all? Strangely, the human race still survived, got on with things, worked it all out...

Has Sex become the new Black?
Is Love now so old fashioned that no-one wants to wear it any longer?

Who knows, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:11 PM

It's probably this one Lizzie is referring to.

It still doesn't say what you said it said.

But it is an interesting argument you pose Lizzie.

I refer you back to my earlier post where I pointed out the difficulties of persuading parents that some changes in education can be for the better.

Here we have a course of study that demonstrably reduces the amount of pregnancy in young girls. Now I would have thought (from what you have said earlier in this thread) you would be in favour of that.   

But apparently you are against it.

I did try and forewarn you not to believe everything you read in the papers. See what happens!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:12 PM

No, the more I think about it, the more we need to bring the Cami Knickers back...preferably Navy Blue ones...in that thick material..