BS: Home Education UK

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 03:15 PM

I, for once, am in complte agreement with Lizzie. In fact, I would like to take it a step furter. This wonderful school where one outdated fasion (ties) is replaced with pirate shirts; where 'rubbish lessons' are replaced with good ones (exactly who decided which is which is a hurdle - but one I am sure someone will help us overcome) and where everyone emerges unable to use conventional furniture has a lot going for it. In fact, if we get enough such well thought out lateral ideas we could even get substantial funding from Harringay or Manchester councils. Come the revolution brothers and all teachers, doctors and other such conventional subverters of our children will go to the wall. Worked well enough in Cambodia.

Ooooh. I am all excited now. I feel a song coming on...

This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius, age of Aquarius...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 03:19 PM

Dave,
May I please have some of whatever you are smoking? LOL irate shirts? Isn't that a uniform?
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 03:39 PM

Pirate - OOPS

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 03:39 PM

Do not tell me how to educate my children, because I do not tell you how to educate yours.

At no point have I for one told you how to educate your children and I have constantly asked to share with hte rest of us how you have educated them.

So far, apart from telling us they learnt a lot themselves - nothing.

Clearly you have a wonderful technique. Why not share it with those you have constantly denigrated in post after post after post? I am sure there would be many who would love to hear how it is done.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 03:42 PM

Why should I, Sinsull? How I taught my children is private, to be honest...

No, I didn't have a 'curriculum'....Gawd, what a horrid word that is.
Learning doesn't happen by 'curriculum'.....Learning is fun. It's aboutu reading books, getting your imagination to grow. It's about lying on the beach at night, looking up at the stars, seeing how many constellations you can find...and name...(the kids always did better than I, 'cos I can't remember the names!) LOL...although now, everyone will come down screeching..."You can't REMEMBER names and you're teaching your own children?!"

Yup! :0)

My kids learnt in a very laid back way...and yes, learning is by osmosis. Josh learnt to add up and subtract pretty darn quickly when I told him that he might lose out on his change, in shops, if he didn't know what the correct amount should be...heck, was that an incentive for him! Big smile. He knows what's what. He can find anything on the computer in seconds, he's an absolute whizz on it...

He'll always struggle to write, but....as my Education Welfare Officer said, "Don't worry about it, it just means he'll use a computer even better!"

My EWO knew what was important in life. He'd been a teacher, so had his wife. She was then in a terrible car crash, paralysed from the neck down. He had to give up teaching to care for her, and filled in with his EWO job when she was in respite care during the day for a few hours.   

His wife was..and still is, a very erudite lady, just takes a little longer to get the words out these days. We went to have tea with them both one day...and that's when Richard gave Nonny his National Geographic collection. They both felt terribly sad about what has happened in schools these days.

They have three children, all grown..and they're desperately worried about their son and his wife, as they're already starting to *push* their children. They're moving house to get into the 'right' school and they can see nothing wrong with the homework their children are getting, despite their youngest being just 6 years old.

6 years old and homework???????????????????????

They've become 'serious' parents, 'seriously serious' about their children's 'education'.

It's all crap, of course.

The more laid back you are, the more your children learn.   If you remove the stresses, then learning become fun again. Note that I say learning and NOT 'edukayshun'.....because 'edukayshun' sucks, quite frankly.

We've become like the Japanese, who happily pushed their children into suicide, such were the pressures on them to 'achieve achieve achieve'

It's all a load of baloney, put upon folks by Corporate Edukayshon Bastards who are out to make more and more money from anxious parents and anxious kids.

Of course, we've also now got the Prom Day over here, which is yet another way to make loadsa money from kids...evening dress hire, hairdo's, presents, 'orrid common stretch limo's..champagne flowing over...

Yeesh!

And then there are....the school TRIPS! Yes, those fun times when the travel agents make loadsa money out of poverty stricken parents who are almost forced into finding the money to send Little Johnny to Russia for 5 days, because if he doesn't go, he'll be scarred for life, not just because he'll be ribbed by his peers, but because he'll NEVER have the opportunity to do this ever again...apparently!

Yes, you can even be reported, or sent to prison for taking your child on holiday! Great isn't it! :0) Forget the fact that kids learn FAR more on a two week holiday in Greece, than in Class 4b, 4th floor of Factory Farms R Us. Oh no, no, no, that doesn't come into it! The whole point is that those who now DICTATE what your children should learn, how they should behave, how they should live, do not want children to lose 'valuable' schooling, because..guess what..and this is a real rib-tickler..because if you have the bloody audacity to take your child on holiday OUT of the alloted time, then your child will NEVER catch up! Yes! LOL! That's the official line of guilt to pour upon the poor parent....My God, the damage you can do by taking your child on holiday! HOW can I/we have never SEEN this before?!   Why didn't we realise?   All those trips to Wales and Devon as a child, no homework books packed, no thought of school in my head, or in my parents heads either..

No WONDER I am as I am!   LOLOL

We have all been bullied senseless by Control Freaks, who have now created a system so stressful that marriages are breaking apart over it....Why? Well, here's what happens...

First, the child implodes. They can't cope. They begin to realise that they can't deal with all the work, and to be honest, they don't want to do it either, so they start to kick up a stink, to the very people who are sending them there...

The parents, of course, NEED to have perfect children so that they can tell each other how well Little Johnny is doing at school ("So much better than YOUR child, Mrs. Higginbottom!") because that way they can tell themselves that they really ARE doing the absolute best for Little Johnny.

Little Johnny kicks out harder...and he starts to have a real problem with ALL adults, because hey, they're bastards who want you to do nothing but work, work, work...at a time in your life when all you want to do is play, play, play....

Mum starts to argue with him....tells him to do his work. He takes no notice. Dad has a word with him....it gets even worse..doors bang, shouts ensue, unhappiness abounds.

Mum shouts at Dad, Dad shouts at Mum, Little Johnny shouts at everyone! But they carry on saying "Oh, he's doing AWFULLY well at school you know! He's studying SO hard.."

Amd the cracks get deeper and deeper and the unhappiness grows stronger and stronger...

But hey....edukayshun's important, innit? We know this, 'cos we've been told...

It never used to be this way folks...you're all being taken for SUCH a ride, but never mind, you all carry on with your National Curriculum and your shouts of "Tie The Home Educators Down to Rules and Regulations!"..and we'll carry on helping our children to learn in a quiet, relaxed, caring environment.




"Education of the mind without education of the soul, is no education at all" - Aristotle...

'They' are stealing our children's souls.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:00 PM

Beam me up Scottie. There is no intelligent life down here.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:03 PM

"It is too bad we have not heard from parents with young children in school or home school now. I may be wrong but I do believe that teachers are more atune to both disabilities and exceptionally bright children than they were even ten years ago. "

I have a nine-year old daughter in school. She has SEN which have been recognised and she has been put on the gifted and talented register in two subjects. There are other children in her class wh
have different SEN and they, too, are receiving the help appropriate to their needs. The school has recognised their varying requirements and has taken the correct action, in discussion with the parents. Yes, I certainly believe that things have greatly improved in the last 10 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:15 PM

"6 years old and homework?"

Well... yes, actually. My six year old gets "homework"... what this actually means once all the hot air and hyperbole is removed, is that the school encourages parents to do stuff like reading and drawing and writing and finding out about new things with their kids. Because, sadly, some parents don't bother. Can you explain to me how this is going to hurt my son, please? Especially as - despite his difficulties - he wants to learn new stuff?

I think if people want to home educate, and they have the knowledge and skills, that's their choice and right. However, what I can't stomach is reading reams and reams of abuse and derision aimed at those of us who make different choices, as if we're lower forms of life and as if we don't care about our kids. It's patronising, insulting, alienating and plain wrong.

So Lizzie, please give it a rest. Or at least learn how to communicate your enthusiasms without putting down those of us who don't share your views.

I'm done. I'd rather put my energy into helping my son learn than into these frustrating "discussions".

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:26 PM

I like the idea of irate shirts. Another one to add to my list of lateral ideas. Thanks Sins.

BTW, just what IS a pirate shirt? I have a blue and cream hoopy breton type thing and a short sleeved one with a flaming skull emblazoned front and back. Which one do I chose? Can I wear them with cut off pants or is that a fasion faux-pas? And what about headgear? Bandana or Jack Sparrow type hat? Decisions, decision...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:28 PM

I remember someone at the start of this thread saying that those who home educated were largely 'neurotic obsessional cranks'. I never used to think so.........

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:32 PM

Jane, I love you.

DeG - I thought it was one of those "puffy shirts" that Seinfeld wore, all ruffles and poofs. Something to buckle your swash into.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:34 PM

I would be willing to bet money that things have not improved significantly in the last ten years in many rural parts of the US, and also in school systems that don't have sufficient resources.

There is a stark difference in the quality of education between some school systems in the US and others. When my son was having so much trouble with schools, we were living in a fairly isolated, rural and mountainous area. The first school he went to had only one class per grade and the teachers ruled the school while the principal stayed in his office and stayed out of trouble. The second had a better principal, and some of the teachers were better (and some weren't), but none of them had the training or the resources to provide my son what he needed.

After I home schooled him for about a year, my ex-husband moved to a major metropolitan area that has one of the best education systems in the US. We decided that we should give those schools a try and see if that would help. They were far better than the previous schools. They didn't really address his problems the way they needed to be addressed, but they did provide a very enriching environment where the teachers were far less abusive, and he was able, with quite a lot of help from me, and a lot of blood, sweat, and tears, to graduate with a high school diploma. It sufficed, but I wouldn't say he thrived by any stretch of the imagination.

Because of what I had taught him bout never giving up on himself, and never letting anyone tell him he wasn't entitled to whatever help he needed (legally entitled), he was able to advocate for himself fairly well when he went to college and then to university, and he did much better there, and graduated with a bachelors degree.

Computers made all the difference in the world for him as well, because one of his disabilities has to do with writing by hand. He can do it with no problems, but there is a processing deficit that makes it take longer for him than it does for other people. So long that he would have tremendous difficulty in getting the massive amounts of homework his teachers used to give him done before midnight. And on top of that, having attention deficit hyperactive disorder made focusing on getting all of that work done after having been cooped up in a classroom all day virtually impossible.

And to make matters even worse, they would only provide enrichment courses that required massive amounts of writing. This was a child who needed to be taught to his strengths, but they were forcing him to spend all of his time beating his head against his weaknesses, without even helping him find ways to compensate for them, and without allowing him to use his strengths and utilize his talents and abilities.

He would have been much better off in an environment that was more suited to someone like him. A Waldorf school would have been perfect, but we didn't have access to that (or the resources to take advantage of one even if there had been one available).   Most public schools in US are not suited to people like my son.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Goose Gander
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:35 PM

But I don't want to be a pirate.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:38 PM

Try this

Or for Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:38 PM

mumble mumble mumble mumble YOU BASTARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:39 PM

How I taught my children is private, to be honest...

My kids learnt in a very laid back way...and yes, learning is by osmosis.

So there we have it. Lizzie's teaching methods, so much more succesful than everyone elses are private - never to be shared.

What a selfish attitude!! Here we have someone who has clearly discovered the secret of successful education of pupils that were having real difficulty in the normal education system. AND SHE REFUSES TO SHARE IT.

But then when we look a little closer we find that she has done little to teach her children apart from take them away from school and on holiday. Their education has been by osmosis. Clearly all that guff about different learning styles means nothing. Learning is about osmosis. Osmosis is all it needs.

I feel maybe the education system need no longer tremble.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:39 PM

I can't help myself, Michael. All that software, so little time...

I think an irate pirate is the best bet. And no, Sins, did you never see the episode of 'Friends' where they discussed gay pirates???

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:44 PM

"Osmosis" is a great way for many children (and adults) to learn. That's how I learn the best. Had I been able to learn that way when growing up, I would have been in far better shape when I reached adulthood than I was. And let's just say that by the time the government run schools in the US were finished with me, I was totally fucked up. It took decades for me to discover that I wasn't stupid and lazy, as I had been taught to believe. When I graduated at the age of 17, I couldn't even do fifth grade level math. (Fifth grade is ten year olds.) So clearly, the schools didn't know a thing about educating someone like me.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:45 PM

BT intercepted the second link with the message that it contained adult content! I expect a nasty mail next week. I concur with Sinsulls comments. Just remebered that I have a third alternative- Bought a T with a skull and crossbones 'No Fear' motif on Cozumel a couple of weeks back. They tell us the pirates have now left that island. Don't you believe it...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:47 PM

I wondered about that too, Dave. If someone doesn't start with the alphabet and letter sounds or at least showing print in a book, how does anyone learn? You can hand me a bunch of coins but if I don't have the concept the number 5 or 10 or 25, how do "osmosize" that and learn to add, subtract, multiply. Of course there are calculators but at some point someone has to explain the concept of numbers. He'll get cheated if he doesn't learn???

That's like saying "Mary, this is an atomic bomb. In two days it will explode. You have to turn it off. Go to it or die." No manual; no instructor. Just private osmosis.

Of course we will never get an answer just more histrionics on some imaginary person who is trying to keep her from home schooling her children.

It is sad that every discussion below the line deteriorates into this crap. I am out of here but thank you for your input.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:50 PM

Sinsull, it was all most all worth it for that 'Irate' Tshirt - pity about the keyboard though :)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:51 PM

Ridicule is the method many teachers use on kids who aren't performing to their expectations. I see that some people in this thread think it's a valid form of argument as well. Just goes to show what a bad influence schools can be on people. Talk about poor social skills, and those are learned in the schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:57 PM

Serious question, going competely off the main subject of pirate shirts. The education system fails people like Lizzie and Carol and, to a certain extent, my daughters. Assuming there is a percentage of people that it does not work for - Lets say 10% for sake of argument - is it right to continue saying it is so wrong. I fully understand the passion people have over their childrens education. Been there, done that, but why attempt to demolish a system that is nearly right? Why not just build on the sucesses and help in way you can rather than just criticise others? Why not do what I did and turn the negative into a possitive? Some people see just the falures. Others see an opportunity to improve. Belonging to the latter camp has certainly improved my life:-)

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:57 PM

"But then when we look a little closer we find that she has done little to teach her children apart from take them away from school and on holiday. Their education has been by osmosis. Clearly all that guff about different learning styles means nothing. Learning is about osmosis. Osmosis is all it needs.

I feel maybe the education system need no longer tremble."


What the f*ck are you talking about Dave?   

You do realise that you've become totally obsessive about me, don't you?

I have no wish to share anything with you, let alone information on how I educated my children.

YOUR system 'educated' my daughter for 10 years, and failed, miserably. I did one helluva lot better.....and nope, you ain't gonna get a detailed lesson plan from me, because, unlike you, I'm not up my own arse about lessons.

I've two intelligent, kind, compassionate children. One had a job at 13 earning the money for his computer, on which he finds out anything he wants to know...The other has been headhunted by The National Trust, who knew she had chosen to not take any 'school exams' but were very VERY happy to employ her despite that fact. She now has two jobs and has recently bought her own car, paid for her own driving lessons too.

And your problem with my children is WHAT, exactly?

Your problem with *me*, of course, is that you have never got over the fact that I spilt the beans, way back, when you PMd me to say how much you liked the photo of me that Sam had put on his site.

Hell, hath no fury like a man scorned, eh?

Now, get off my back...and accept that for me, for my children, Home Education has been a great thing.

If I had my time over again, I would NEVER send my kids into a highly antiquated, patronising, de-sensitising system, but that is just my own personal choice.

Oh...and Dave...maybe you like to send children into a school where the teachers all have walkie talkies, where they have a 'Cooling Down' room for children who've been marched out of the classroom by teachers, due to the violent disruption they're causing. Maybe you, like other teachers, would choose to put the most disturbed pupils next to my gentle daughter, in the hope that some of her personality would rub off on them...maybe you think it's OK for every teacher to have a 'panic alarm button' under their desks.....maybe...

Maybe you think it's OK for older pupils to stand at the top of stairwells and pour boiling hot chocolate drink down onto the younger ones (ho ho ho, what a larf, eh!).....

I happen to think it's all a load of crap.

This is because I'm 54 and remember a time when school was NOTHING like it is now....and those things mentioned above, all happened, in Tavistock College and Sidmouth College too.

Maybe you think it's OK for gentle children, and girls at that, to be hit in the face by other girls. I don't.

I'm not gutless. I don't believe in ignoring the blindingly obvious....nor do I believe in accepting crap from other posters in here, Spleen Cringe, who also have an axe to grind over me, because I refused to accept their Myspace page on mine....

So, fellas, you can take you high fallutin' attitudes right away from me, because I've been through BOTH systems, school and FREEDOM...and I KNOW which one works!

So, put that in yer pipes and smoke it!

(Sorry, Joe...but Dave's had this coming for a long time!)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:58 PM

Math is learned by osmosis when a home schooling parent bakes a cake with his or her kids, and shows them the numbers and fractions that are needed to make the cake. It is learned when a home schooling parent shows their kids how to measure and cut wood, and to draw a plan for building a bookshelf.

Really, the lack of imagination shown by people here shows me that the public schools didn't do them any service.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:58 PM

BTW - I am part way through a 12 hour nightshift. It will get worse...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:04 PM

Ridicule is far from a valid argument, Carol, but the ridiculous does beg to be ridiculed.

(Folkie)Dave, how long has it been YOUR education system? Hpw come you own it and can I have some of it please? Can you confirm that this is all YOUR doing? (Just as an example of the above...)

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:10 PM

Absolutely, Carol!   Absolutely!

Do they really think that you can ONLY learn by sitting behind a desk with a blackboard in front of you...


And tonight, I'm sitting here listening to News at Ten, hearing the story of a Nursery, down here in Plymouth, which was run by paedeophiles. 3 of them, 2 of them women, took photos, sexually abused the children, and the parents don't even know which children they abused...

One of my daughter's teachers was sent to prison for paedeophilia too.
He'd rigged up a camera in the classroom...got the young girls to reach up for books...and SNAP, photos of under their skirts were soon on the internet. Of course, one of the other teachers knew about it, he even warned the man concerned to stop it..but he didn't warn the children, or the parents...and so it went on for years....

Cool, huh...

School..it works..everytime.....?
Yeah, right!

But never mind, people, line up over there, put your babies into the nurseries, leave them with the childminders, put them in the hands of complete strangers...

Absolutely terrifying....but sadly....true.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:10 PM

Since "ridiculous" is a subjective term, I would think that someone with good social skills would know that if everyone engaged in ridiculing everyone else whom they found ridiculous, there would never be any constructive communication between people.

I notice also another behavior that children learn in the schools being displayed in this thread. That's the tendency to gang up on someone whom the larger group has decided to target.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:15 PM

Carol you have presented some impassioned but cogent arguments for home schooling in America; whatever form of education you received you are a credit to it as an independent thinker with a clear mind

However Lizzie has claimed some serious inaccuracies - such as all home educators are to be considered potential child abusers and placed on the 'at riak' register in the UK in support of her rather extremely expressed opinions, and I tend to agree with David el Gnomo that 'the ridiculous does beg to be ridiculed'

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:20 PM

And yet, ridiculing hasn't helped anyone to put forth their arguments. It only adds rancor to the thread.

I would suggest that the person venting against the system is entitled to their feelings based on their experience of the system, and that others are entitled to not agree. But I don't see the use of ridiculing anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:24 PM

By the way, most of my education, I provided my own self, since the schools taught me very little other than to believe that I was totally inadequate, stupid, and lazy. I will take all of whatever credit is due for my education.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:40 PM

Well I was luckier than you Carol as, although a classic dyslexic from an inpoverished background, I recieved an excellent education from teachers, who, although they had no concept of my inabilty to spell and absolutely dreadful dysgraphia, nevertheless were generally supportive and some were amazing mentors and role models that I will be grateful to for the rest of my life.

But these are all individual, personal experiences and do not constitute an argument for insisting that all state schooling is as excellent any more than it is all 'crap'

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:45 PM

Do they really think that you can ONLY learn by sitting behind a desk with a blackboard in front of you

I have just spent a while going back through the thread looking for the people who have said that the ONLY way to learn is sitting behind a desk etc. I did not find any. Lots of examples of people saying that there is room for both. Lots of people supporting home education and many remarks claiming that schools are just plain wrong. None saying it is the only way. Just who are the people saying this?

While I was looking I also spotted who exactly was ridiculing the system and other posters, who was making long winded personal attacks and who believes that they know what is best, end of story. I suggest a look through to draw your own conclusions.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:45 PM

Nobody can make dyslexia or any other learning disability go away. I know this because I have multiple learning disabilities myself. I've lived with them all of my life so far, and I will continue to live with them for the rest of my life.

Which means nobody's managed to make yours go away and nothing more. There are many problems labelled with the grotesquely stupid term "learning disability" that are COMPLETELY curable, by methods ranging from surgery on the eye muscles to dietary modification to hearing aids to pharmacotherapy, and it would be obscenely abusive to withhold such interventions.


What can be done is to help people find ways to compensate for their learning disabilities.

Which is something the collective expertise of a school system is more likely to figure out than a parent using their kid as the chosen battleground for a private grudge.

I had two successive things to compensate. With a cleft palate, I needed speech therapy to speak clearly. It worked well enough that the only people who can now tell there's anything odd inside my mouth are speech therapists. And my handwriting was bad enough at first that the teachers thought I might have a mild form of cerebral palsy. But first they tried a variety of different strategies until one clicked. My writing is still a bit slow, but elegant enough that I do calligraphic signs as part of my job using my natural script. Somehow I rather doubt if any of the homeschooling advocates posting here could have pulled either of those off, and with Lizzie as a mother I'd have been brought up to assert my right to speak with no intelligible consonants and scrawl stuff as legible as a barbed wire fence. (My own mother certainly couldn't have done it, but had the sense to defer to the experts).

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:01 PM

The person who had a good experience of the schools despite learning disabilities is very lucky indeed.

I had none of those good experiences. I was targeted for abuse and ridicule by my teachers (and also by the principal of the school I attended from the second grade to the fourth grade). This, of course, set up the social dynamic among my classmates that taught them that it was perfectly ok for them to also target me with abuse and ridicule. No help was given other than the advice that I needed to try harder.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:03 PM

I would suggest that problems that are labeled "learning disability" but can be gotten rid of are not really learning disabilities, but some other problem.

A learning disability is a problem with the brain wiring, and cannot be corrected. It can only be worked around.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:07 PM

Careful Dave. Too much examination of evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:09 PM

My son had some teachers who, like one of the above posters, believed that learning disabilities could be gotten rid of. They were the worst thing that could possibly have happened to him, because instead of helping him find ways of working around his problems, they were forcing him to be constantly beating his head against them. People like that should not be allowed to teach children.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:09 PM

"Osmosis" is a great way for many children (and adults) to learn. That's how I learn the best.

I agree - some things are learnt by osmosis. It isn't the only way. Some things are learnt best by practise. Sporting skills for example. All I have ever done (constantly) is ask Lizzie to share the secret of the way she has educated her children - for educate them she says she has done.

For someone who slags off teachers unmercifully she is remarkably reluctant to share her secrets. Her privilege of course - but I still believe it it selfish. But at least we now know it consists of taking them out of school, and then on trips. Oh yes! and osmosis.

Never mind she'll be back soon to tell us how she is organising a march for all of us to go on with banners against the Labour Government saying "Fuck You" as she said we all ought to do.

Oh yes and she is busy organising a folk festival in Torquay for people who are kept out of "top of the bill" spots by conspiracy.

Not that she is a conspiracy theorist of course. Heaven forfend.

And Lizzie you only bother me when you write unsubstantiated garbage. The problem is that is quite frequent.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:26 PM

I would suggest that problems that are labeled "learning disability" but can be gotten rid of are not really learning disabilities, but some other problem.

A learning disability is a problem with the brain wiring, and cannot be corrected. It can only be worked around.

Who gets to decide what can't be corrected? You? How good are you at diagnosing absence seizures, parasite infestations or Wilson's disease? How good are most parents at dealing with sexual abuse within the family when it affects children's learning?

You're just playing with words. You've defined a condition there can be no real-world test for.   It's a secular version of the Calvinist doctrine of election.

Thank fucking Christ nobody took your attitude with the problems I had. And they certainly could have done - there have been times and places where nobody expected people with cleft palates ever to speak normally or take part in ordinary civic life.

Children need some sort of protection against being crippled by the low expectations of authority figures. And the authorities most likely to have disablingly low expectations are their own parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:47 PM

Just another thought. (Best thing about working nights, waiting for something to go wrong, is that you think a lot...)

I wonder how many of our top musicians,artists and scientists agree that education is a bad thing? How many of them achived their status by osmosis and a little love? I wonder how many of them got to the top without some bloody hard work and lots of practice? I suppose they are all victims of the mysterious THEM as well...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:52 PM

If a child is good in arithmetic but not in languages or if the child is good in languages and is poor in computing the numbers, it could be a case of 'Specific Learning Disability' although to be honest I hate these type of 'labels'.

I agree with Latha Vidyaranya, a counselor for children with learning, emotional and behavioural problems

"These labels (should be used) only to exchange information between professionals and to understand the remedial measures required for the child, but not to demoralize the child or the parent."

"Once we have identified a child with these difficulties, what do we do?
The child needs an assessment by an Educational psychologist or a Special Educator who may administer various tests to find out the its abilities in the areas of reading, writing, spelling and arithmetic.
It is important to rule out any hearing or vision problems before conducting these tests.
It is also important to collect information about the family history/background to rule out any serious emotional disturbances."

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Goose Gander
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:54 PM

One-size-fits-all fits noone. Homeschooling works very well for some kids, not so good for others, could be disastrous in some cases. Same for formal classroom instruction. Ideally, there should be a range of choices open to parents and children. My younger brother used to scream and tear his clothes off and go running down the street. Now he's a software programmer making more money than I'll ever make. If he was a kid today, he'd be doped up on pharmaceuticals and/or institutionalized.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:14 PM

My younger brother used to scream and tear his clothes off and go running down the street. Now he's a software programmer making more money than I'll ever make. If he was a kid today, he'd be doped up on pharmaceuticals and/or institutionalized.

When did he change and what - if any one thing - changed him?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:24 PM

Michael, I totally agree with you...and you've touched on something hugely important, the fact that so many kids are put on Ritalin and other drugs, supposedly to make them 'behave' in school.

Let's put school on a drug, one that will make some of those who work inside it see clearly, perhaps for the first time in years....

"For someone who slags off teachers unmercifully she is remarkably reluctant to share her secrets."

I have only EVER slagged off crap teachers who damage children, sometimes for life. If everyone else did the same we'd er...have no crap teachers. I have ALWAYS praised and respected brilliant teachers, Dave, as well you know, so WHY do you persist in trying to spread entirely the wrong message about me, I wonder..............



"Her privilege of course - but I still believe it it selfish."

Yes, it is my privilege. No, it's not selfish, it's just damned annoying (for you) because you haven't got any more 'weapons of vocabularic destruction' that you can twist, spin and spit out against me and about me.

I think the expression, which I learned in school is 'Tough Shit' which just goes to prove that school CAN be good for the occasional thing.


"But at least we now know it consists of taking them out of school, and then on trips. Oh yes! and osmosis."

Yup. And two more lovely people you could never wish to meet. Unlike some bitter teachers who are so hellbent on proving their point that they make themselves looked er...somewhat odd.

School is absolutely the correct place for you, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:24 PM

It is also important to collect information about the family history/background to rule out any serious emotional disturbances.

And maybe a bit more than that. A lot of "ADHD" is the result of what might be called home antischooling - when what goes on in the home environment makes it impossible for the kid to learn anything either there or at school. Things like sexual abuse and parents keeping the kids awake all night with drunken arguments are the well-publicized ones. But even in the absence of anything that might attract police intervention, a kid is never going to learn to sit and think (either at home or school) while living in a home environment where there is never any silence, nobody ever settles down to a sustained task that takes any time, and the only escape from non-stop TV and videos is being left alone in your room to play millisecond-response computer games all evening.

One peculiarly sick situation I know of in a Scottish region near here: the local authority set up a very effective network for parents of kids with ADHD. The parents were largely in control of it but professionals were on call as needed. They used a wide range of interventions, everything from Ritalin to ensuring that kids ate meals on a regular schedule, laid off junk food and Red Bull, and didn't have TVs or computers in their bedrooms. None of this stuff is rocket science and it didn't take too long before the parents figured out how to manage the problem. It didn't take much longer before a lot of them decided not to manage it. The benefits paid out to families with an ADHD kid were high enough to make a substantial difference to the weekly budget. An ADHD kid was effectively an extra wage earner, so long as they stayed messed up enough.

Something like that is equally a problem for home-based or school-based education, but the answer is never going to come from the parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:46 PM

I'm not the one who said that learning disabilities can't be corrected. That was I have been told (and what I have read from) all of the experts on learning disabilities I have encountered, including educators. And clearly the person in this thread who thinks they can and that theirs was, didn't have learning disabilities. At least the language one was not. The handwriting one probably is, since that one, according to their own account, hasn't gone away. They've just found ways of getting around it.

CLEFT PALATE IS NOT A LEARNING DISABILITY. It is a PHYSICAL disability. Thank god I knew better than to believe the teachers who thought and believed like the person who is saying that learning disabilities can be corrected. If those teachers had been allowed to prevail, my son would have been as totally fucked up by the time he reached adulthood as I was. But instead, he has a university degree and a very good job.

It's BECAUSE I taught him that although he couldn't get rid of his learning disabilities, he could learn how to compensate for them, and because I taught him to never listen to people who tried to make him feel like he wasn't doing his best, that he was able to compensate for the faulty brain wiring that was causing him so much trouble in the schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:48 PM

I would suggest that a lot of the top musicians and artists did poorly in school, and many of the probably have learning disabilities. That seems to be fairly common with very creative people.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:59 PM

I totally disagree that the term learning disability should not be used by anyone but the professionals who are working with the child. It wasn't until I learned that I have learning disabilities when I was in my 30s that I was able to find a way to benefit from a structured learning environment. It wasn't until I learned exactly what my problems were, and then found effective tools for getting around them that I was able to function well in a classroom setting. Where I had consistently gotten Ds and Es (the lowest grade being F) in school as a child (except in art, where I always got As), when I went back to college in my 30s (after having twice dropped out in my late teens, without ever finishing a semester), I got mostly As and a couple of Bs.

The reason I was able to do this is because I understood the nature of my problems. And I STILL have attention deficit disorder, and have had it all of my life (I believe that ADD is a little sister to autism), so that can't be pinned on my home life as a child. But when I understood why I had so much difficulty focusing, that was when I was able to find ways to create an environment in which I was able, with a lot of effort, to focus and learn, and get very good grades.

But the reason I was so successful after I went back to school as an adult was because I as an adult, and I had much more power and control over my environent. The learning disabilities didn't go way, I just learned how to compensate for them.

And knowing why I have the problems I do also helped my self-esteem a hell of a lot. Because then I knew that the things the schools had taught me to believe about myself weren't true, and that there were very good reasons why I had the difficulties I had in school.