Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Is This Man An Icon ?

DigiTrad:
COLORS


Related threads:
Lyr Req: Catch the Wind (Donovan) (9)
Donovan Songs CD & Website (7)
Lyr Req: Colors / Colours (Donovan) (13)
Who Likes Donovan? Favourite Song? (201)
Chord Req: Candy Man (Donovan) (11)
chord req 'There is an Ocean' (Donovan) (8)
chord req: 'Sailing Homeward' (Donovan) (3)
Chord Req: Keep On Truckin' (Donovan) (7)
ADD: Neutron bombs by Donovan (8)
Chord Req: Turquoise (Donovan) (7)
Lyr/Chords Req: Jersey Thursday (Donovan) (14)
Lyr Req: Songs by Donovan (73)
Chord Req: There Is a Mountain (Donovan) (14)
Chord Req: Gentle heart (Donovan) (4)
Lyr/Chords Req: Sand & Foam (Donovan) (5)
Lyr Req: Ferryman's Daughter (Donovan) (15)
Chord Req: Epistle to Derroll (Donovan) (13)
Anybody doing Donovan these days? (49)
Lyr Req: Riki Tiki Tavi (Donovan) (7)
Lyr Req: Donovan Fans (10)
Lyr Req: Colours (Donovan) (29)
Chord Req: Roots of Oak (Donovan) (1)
Chord Req: Guinevere (Donovan) (4)
Donovan's 'Hurdy Gurdy Man' new verse! (10)
Lyr Req: Celtic Rock (Donovan) (8)
Donovan coming? (8) (closed)
colours by donovan (18)
Lyr Req: Red is the Color of My True Love's Hair (46)


Smedley 07 Oct 09 - 08:14 AM
GUEST,Mike of Hessle 07 Oct 09 - 08:36 AM
Jack Campin 07 Oct 09 - 08:37 AM
Mr Happy 07 Oct 09 - 08:39 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 07 Oct 09 - 08:40 AM
Mr Happy 07 Oct 09 - 08:46 AM
Smedley 07 Oct 09 - 09:09 AM
Wesley S 07 Oct 09 - 09:22 AM
Dave Hanson 07 Oct 09 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,Ed 07 Oct 09 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,leeneia 07 Oct 09 - 09:35 AM
theleveller 07 Oct 09 - 09:48 AM
Banjiman 07 Oct 09 - 09:49 AM
Jack Blandiver 07 Oct 09 - 09:54 AM
TheSnail 07 Oct 09 - 10:08 AM
DonMeixner 07 Oct 09 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 07 Oct 09 - 10:24 AM
Spleen Cringe 07 Oct 09 - 10:32 AM
Willie-O 07 Oct 09 - 10:33 AM
Banjiman 07 Oct 09 - 10:46 AM
alanabit 07 Oct 09 - 11:13 AM
Dave Hanson 07 Oct 09 - 11:15 AM
katlaughing 07 Oct 09 - 11:19 AM
GREEN WELLIES 07 Oct 09 - 11:39 AM
Smedley 07 Oct 09 - 11:48 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 07 Oct 09 - 11:50 AM
M.Ted 07 Oct 09 - 01:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Oct 09 - 01:34 PM
katlaughing 07 Oct 09 - 02:35 PM
open mike 07 Oct 09 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,Joseph de Culver City 07 Oct 09 - 02:45 PM
Don Firth 07 Oct 09 - 02:52 PM
Spleen Cringe 07 Oct 09 - 02:56 PM
katlaughing 07 Oct 09 - 03:05 PM
Spleen Cringe 07 Oct 09 - 03:12 PM
MGM·Lion 07 Oct 09 - 03:28 PM
katlaughing 07 Oct 09 - 03:35 PM
Don Firth 07 Oct 09 - 03:49 PM
Tim Leaning 07 Oct 09 - 04:13 PM
Spleen Cringe 07 Oct 09 - 04:16 PM
GUEST,Edthefolkie 07 Oct 09 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,Gerry 08 Oct 09 - 01:01 AM
open mike 08 Oct 09 - 01:11 AM
Peace 08 Oct 09 - 01:29 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Oct 09 - 01:46 AM
Bryn Pugh 08 Oct 09 - 04:48 AM
Smedley 08 Oct 09 - 05:21 AM
Brian Peters 08 Oct 09 - 05:35 AM
alex s 08 Oct 09 - 05:57 AM
GUEST,Mike of Hessle 08 Oct 09 - 06:21 AM
Mooh 08 Oct 09 - 10:27 AM
Mooh 08 Oct 09 - 10:38 AM
M.Ted 08 Oct 09 - 11:02 AM
Jack Blandiver 08 Oct 09 - 11:31 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 08 Oct 09 - 01:47 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 08 Oct 09 - 01:55 PM
katlaughing 08 Oct 09 - 03:16 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Oct 09 - 11:35 PM
katlaughing 09 Oct 09 - 12:22 AM
Barry Finn 09 Oct 09 - 12:52 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Oct 09 - 02:23 AM
M.Ted 09 Oct 09 - 02:43 AM
rich-joy 09 Oct 09 - 03:38 AM
meself 09 Oct 09 - 09:05 AM
Mr Happy 09 Oct 09 - 09:32 AM
SINSULL 09 Oct 09 - 09:54 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 09 Oct 09 - 10:06 AM
Dave Hanson 09 Oct 09 - 10:26 AM
Mr Happy 09 Oct 09 - 10:30 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 09 Oct 09 - 11:02 AM
katlaughing 09 Oct 09 - 11:05 AM
open mike 09 Oct 09 - 11:54 AM
M.Ted 09 Oct 09 - 12:11 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 09 Oct 09 - 12:17 PM
katlaughing 09 Oct 09 - 12:45 PM
M.Ted 09 Oct 09 - 12:59 PM
Dave Hanson 09 Oct 09 - 03:00 PM
Spleen Cringe 09 Oct 09 - 03:00 PM
M.Ted 09 Oct 09 - 10:23 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Oct 09 - 11:53 PM
Dave Hanson 10 Oct 09 - 02:49 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 10 Oct 09 - 08:07 AM
meself 10 Oct 09 - 08:55 AM
Dave Hanson 10 Oct 09 - 05:32 PM
GUEST 19 Dec 09 - 05:16 PM
GUEST 19 Dec 09 - 05:21 PM
The Sandman 19 Dec 09 - 05:57 PM
The Sandman 19 Dec 09 - 06:02 PM
Acorn4 19 Dec 09 - 06:07 PM
GUEST 19 Dec 09 - 06:17 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Smedley
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 08:14 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8294097.stm

Not too often you see the words 'folk' and 'icon' in a mainstream news story. A deserved honour ? Or is he too far from most Mudcat regulars' musical preferences to be of interest ?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Mike of Hessle
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 08:36 AM

In a word - NO


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 08:37 AM

He means Donovan, who has been given an award by BMI.

Guck urgh barf.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 08:39 AM

No he's a man, this is an Icon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icon


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 08:40 AM

He certainly thinks he is!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 08:46 AM

Donovan, described by BMI as "a man of unfathomable talent", ??


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Smedley
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:09 AM

I see his fan club are all online today.....

What interested me about this story was (a) the fact he is still described as a 'folk' artist when that description isn't really accurate (or hasn't been for decades) and (b) the fact that somebody who made a handful of (to my mind) really good pop singles in the 1960s gets to qualify for such a grandiose title.

Maybe all you have to do these days to get an 'icon' label is to not be dead yet.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:22 AM

To the type of people who give away these awards the term "folk" is defined as anyone who plays an acoustic guitar. That's the reality of it - and they won't be checking into the Mudcat to discover the error of their ways.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:28 AM

' A man of unfathomable talent ' means no one knows what his songs are about.

How dare they put this oaf in the same company as Ray Davies ?

Icon ? my arse.

Dave H


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:34 AM

No


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:35 AM

Thanks, Dave. I've only been up one hour, and I've had a good laugh already.

Also thanks, Mr. Happy. I get tired of people using 'icon' to refer to any schlemiel who got some favorable publicity. Also 'litany' to mean any cliche.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:48 AM

Well, the 'con' bit's right.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:49 AM

Who?

I've just checked with my Mum, she says she thinks she might of heard of him along time ago.........


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:54 AM

It was Donovan I first heard sing Child #250 - when I was maybe eleven or so. Quite liked it at the time; wonder what I'd make of it now?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 10:08 AM

Banjiman

I've just checked with my Mum, she says she thinks she might of heard of him along time ago.........

Does that make him a traditional singer?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 10:15 AM

I have never met Donovan but I've seen him in concert a few times. Always enjoyable. I don't recall him as being iconic or grandiose, just polite and humorous. Always in key and pretty OK as a guitarist.

Seems to me he is catching a lot of blame for some titles he maybe hasn't asked for and others are foisting upon him.

Don


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 10:24 AM

Icon, well he already seems to be a bit too full of his own self importance
judging by recent Biography Documentary TV shows..

But despite his most dire career killing later recordings,
Donovan does deserve a reasonable degree of respect
for the best of his 60's era pop-folk-rock output;
and recognition for introducing a younger generation to the wider world
of trad Folk and mediaeval & non western styles of music.

He was a significant influence on my young teenage music development back in the early 70's........


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 10:32 AM

This! Enough for me, anyway. A psych-folk classic...

Ducks and runs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Willie-O
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 10:33 AM

Donovan saved my arse once in the 80s. Busking in Toronto, yr humble idiot servant had his car towed (turns out those little tow-truck icon signs mean just that) and was totally broke after getting it back. Mr Donovan Leitch was playing a concert at the Danforth Music Hall so we went and busked the lineup--made some great and much-needed $$. At one point (break time I guess) he came out to the sidewalk and seemed very pleased to see us there doing our thing.

It was my birthday, didn't see his show but made beer, dinner and gas money (other gig we were supposed to have fell through--different story) --I've had a soft spot for him ever since! Liked his early music, especially.

W-O


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 10:46 AM

"Does that make him a traditional singer?"

I think I better let others more qualified than me answer that one. Don't try and tempt me into that trap........

I refuse to answer any question that has "folk" or "traditional" in it!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: alanabit
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 11:13 AM

I thought he was a good singer, a good guitarist and a reasonable pop songwriter, who could possibly have done even better things had he been so inclined. Maybe he did, but I never got to hear them. I enjoyed his gigs on television and he came over to me as he did to Don Meixner.
I would agree that some folks have overpraised his talent and achievements, but that is no reason to castigate the man himself. He is not someone, whom I would call a folk icon, but he does come across as a likeable man and a fine entertainer. "The Ballad of Geraldine" is a fine reworking of the "Rosemary Lane" genre of folk songs and I would not be surprised if it eventually joined the tradition.
As it happens, I also reckon that in a hundred years, Ray Davies is far more likely to be considered as a source of lasting folk songs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 11:15 AM

In fairness he started out well but went into hippy drippy airy fairy up his own arse mode quite quickly.

Dave


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 11:19 AM

To be fair the article does say folk rock. I wouldn't call him an icon, but I would say he was as important a part of the whole folk-pop-rock era and I loved his earlier albums AND LOVE one of his latest, "Sutras." It has the most beautiful, haunting songs on it and his voice is more mature, imo.

Also, I know someone who interviewed him for a book they were writing; he was very open, honest, kind, and approachable..they got a great interview and there was no hoity-toitiness about him.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GREEN WELLIES
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 11:39 AM

May do well to remember that this award was given TO him by OTHERS.

I dont recall him referring to himself as an Icon, or anything else. These are comments being made by the media and I dont see anywhere him saying 'Oh yes actually, I am a bit of an icon with an unfathomable talent'.
I think such comments as "Guck urgh barf" are completely unnecessary, and rather childish.


And....... no I'm not particularly a fan.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Smedley
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 11:48 AM

I also think he has come back into fashion recently on account of being an influence of some of the 'new folk' (probably in these here parts I should say ''''''''new folk'''''''') artists of the Devendra Banhart persuasion.

This may or may not be a good thing of course......

For two or three years in the 60s he was something of a pioneer, but the particular shape of his pioneering was to mesh folk traditions with other genres & styles, and that is never a way to please the more traditionally minded.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 11:50 AM

"To be fair the article does say folk rock."

Oh! A 'folk rock' icon! That makes all the difference!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 01:23 PM

Having once been a pop folk singer on the college sandwich and beer club circuit, I found that there were a certain number of Donovan songs that could always be counted on, though thick and thin. Fifteen or so years ago, I finally met the man and told his this, and expressed my thanks, he was gracious and humble, and allowed that he had found it true as well.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 01:34 PM

I'd say he's as far from being a rock singer as he is from being a folk singer.

Quite a pleasant singer for all that, and a few pleasant enough songs. "Unfathomable talent" comes across to me as saying shallow rather than deep...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:35 PM

M.Ted, thanks for that story.

Shimrod...it had to be pointed out since it seemed most of you were ignoring that...no one says he is just "folk" and of course that could lead us to what is folk ad nauseum.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: open mike
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:38 PM

decide for yourself..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donovan
http://www.donovan.ie/
http://www.myspace.com/donovanofficial

Beat Cafe' album released 2004
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_Cafe

He was born in Scotland and his most recent
song is a Robert Burns poem set to music:
Donovan releases new single "The Banks O'Doon", on Itunes
On this the 250th anniversary of the Scottish Poet Robert Burns Donovan has put a new Melody to the famous Burns poem "The Banks O'Doon". Donovan's rendition of the Burns Poem aims to highlight the plight of the River Doon in Ayrshire Scotland which is now under threat from new power company plans to divert the famous river.The river is the location of many of Burns famous poems.The new song is now released on itunes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Joseph de Culver City
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:45 PM

They say no man is a prophet in his own country. I guess so...


Icon or no, he is worthy of respect, imho.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:52 PM

Not to throw the cat among the pigeons, but I've heard this expression for years now, and I don't really know what it's supposed to mean.

What the heck is "folk rock?"

(Oh, boy! I've probably done it now!:

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:56 PM

Don, start a thread and I'll hum along..


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:05 PM

Thanks, open mike!

Don, it an o-l-d-e song with a hard rock stuck under the singer/musician's arse while they try to adopt a tortured look in order to display their empathy for the plight of which they sing. Well...you asked, Pigeon.**bg**


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:12 PM

My folk rock has a groove down the middle.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:28 PM

Things are usually best explained by examples. FolkRock is Fairport Convention, Steeleye Span, Pentangle, Mr Fox, Trees... More or less traditional music played rock-style with amplified instruments & amplification of vocals. Could be well or ill done: at its best, as with Maddy Prior & Bob Johnston & Martin Carthy & Peter Knight & John Kirkpatrick working in Steeleye, or Jansch & McShee in Pentangle (people with a background in traditional folk), it could provide fresh insights to the music — which was, after all, as they would have admitted, still there when they had finished with it.

FolkRock, like Rock in general, implies a *group* to achieve the effect aimed at.

So can't see how a soloist like Donovan would possibly qualify; even if using amplified instruments which he generally didn't (&, drifting slightly, look what happened when Dylan did!).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:35 PM

Uh-oh, now you've done it...a serious answer which begs opinions!**smile**


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:49 PM

(Sorry. . . .)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 04:13 PM

Icon no
Man of his time and worthy of respect yes.
Seen many other performers more iconic
appearing to be carved from wood but recipients of near worship from their fans


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 04:16 PM

Also seriously, some of my favourite records are folk rock albums. Both Mr Fox albums, the first three Steeleye Span albums, Shirley Collins and the Albion Band's "No Roses", the Woods Band album and really bloody brilliant, Pentangle's "Cruel Sister"... recently I have also enjoyed folk rock offerings from the Owl Service, Pumajaw, Alasdair Roberts, The Black Flowers, Trembling Bells and the Memory Band.

The important thing to remember is, no matter how good your folk is, your folk rock will only be as good as your rock is. Too often, folk rock is about clumping, soulless rhythm sections, pedestrian arrangements, rocking out badly and the worst excesses of dull, mindnumbing dadrock. Music of this sort should be treated with the circumspection it deserves.

One word (okay, two) for American Mudcatters: Cordelia's Dad. Shit name, phenomenally good band...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 05:32 PM

Bit too much arbitrary categorisation going on 'ere if you ask me.

As for Donovan, Danny Thompson isn't too proud to play bass for him, and Dan really IS an icon! Whatever...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 01:01 AM

One of the many places where US usage differs from UK is "folk rock." In the US the term was used to describe Simon and Garfunkel, The Byrds, Barry McGuire ("Eve of Destruction"), maybe even stretched as far as Lovin' Spoonful, Mamas and Papas. Very different from what Fairport, Steeleye et al did a few years later.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: open mike
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 01:11 AM

maybe it's folk music with a drummer added?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 01:29 AM

I think the label "folk" is a compliment to the various performers. My take on it is that back in the day it meant the lyrics would convey feelings or 'philosophies' that had meaning beyond the likes of 'Barbara Ann[e]' or '409' (both songs are OK by me, but they ain't folk-rock. IMO, they ain't 'folk' anything. I particularly like GUEST Gerry's comment just above OM's.

IMO, his 'Colors' was beautiful. I often heard people way back saying things like, "He's trying to be Bob Dylan." Of course, the same people said that about David Cohen (later David Blue) and anyone else who teased his hair so's he look like a buffalo.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 01:46 AM

In what sense, GuestGerry, do the Americans categorise acoustic musicians Simon & G & those others you name above as "Rock", which surely implies influence of the Rock'n'Roll movement of the mid-50s [Bill Haley & his successors], with its ostinato amplified beat, long jazz-influenced, in sense of being semi-impro'd, instrumental breaks &c?

I think this matters, because over-extended use of any term [what I have heard semanticists categorise as 'over-defining'] robs it of its meaning? So that if you call S&G 'rock' musicians, what term are you then to use of lineups like Fairport et al who set out deliberately to introduce Rock'n'Roll techniques into the performance of folk music?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 04:48 AM

Icon my hairy arse.

A pretty-pretty writer and blagger. What was Catch the Wind other than Chimes of Freedom with different words ?

I remember a Joan Baez concert at the Free Trade Hall (Manchester UK) in 1966. Joan had a nasty cold and sang only about fove or six songs.

Then theis apparition came on stage, sang something and said "My name's Donovan".

The entire pleace exploded into a stamping chorus of "Shit ! Shit! Shit!" and so on till he was effectively booed off stage.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Smedley
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 05:21 AM

What an open-minded response ! And I thought a Joan Baez audience would be wall-to-wall woolly liberals.

On the terminology debate, the US usage of 'rock' often baffles me - the Mamas & Papas etc strike me as more accurately called 'folk-pop' - which is not to disparage them, by the way.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 05:35 AM

Good old Manchester. I remember Genesis trying to do some sensitive acoustic numbers there in the 1970s when someone shouted out "Play the fucking electric guitars!" And we claim "Judas!" too, of course!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: alex s
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 05:57 AM

when someone told Bob Dylan he was an icon he said, "that means a washed-up has-been"......


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Mike of Hessle
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 06:21 AM

Hi Bryn,

I always thought Catch the Wind was a 'syrupy' love song and quite banal whilst Chimes of Freedom was (and still is) stunning and sends quivers down my spine - Dylan at his best.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Mooh
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 10:27 AM

"Donovan, described by BMI as "a man of unfathomable talent"."

Wow, what the heck?

I mean, he is/was an interesting musician/performer/artist, but really that description is over the top. Folks who write such things are deluded, uninformed, cons, or just blissfully ignorant. One doesn't have to plumb the depths of culture far to find lots more deeper talent.

Unfathomable hyperbole.

Peace, Mooh.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Mooh
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 10:38 AM

I lost part of my post on edit, my computer clumsiness being "unfathomable".

Icon and unfathomable applies to Shakespeare, Bach, and a few others.

I rather like Donovan though, in the same way I like lots of other singer/songwriters. The best part of this thread is hearing experiences from folks who actually knew or met the guy.

Peace, Mooh.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 11:02 AM

For those that missed out, "Folk Rock" was a term that was coined in the 60's to describe the recordings made by coffee house style singer-songwriters that had rock-style drums , bass, and guitar.

The are two textbook examples. First, Simon and Garfunkel's "The Sounds of Silence" which was originally recorded and released with a simple acoustic guitar accompanimentSounds of Silence, original , and was then released as a single after drums, bass, and electric guitar leads were added by producer Tom Wilson Sounds of Silence ,Mono 45 . Second is The Byrds' "Mr. Tambourine Man", which was recorded using the same musicians and studios that were used by Phil Spector and Brian
Wilson for many of their hits. Mr. Tambourine Man, 45


Though it might seem artificial and even crassly commercial to add rock drums and the rest to "folk" music, the fact was that the underlying pulse for a lot of 60's "folk" was really based on R&B and Everly Brothers style Rock and Roll.

Dylan himself said that even on his earliest acoustic recordings, he was always playing rock and roll, and if you go back and listen, the recordings really do have a driving rock sensibility to them, even When it's just Bob and his guitar. Mr. Tambourine Man

Back to Donovan: even his early recordings have very strong R&B and Jazz sensibilities that run counter to the "Minstrel Boy" image that he cultivated when he was first performing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 11:31 AM

70s Prog, true to the Zeitgeist always had its folkier side; Gentle Giant were amazing in this respect, and even as a recorder consort they could still tear the place apart. I never did get folk rock per-se, though I gave Battle of the Field a spin on our new turntable last night and it still sounds pretty good, but that's just an exception proving a rule - my darkest dreams are still haunted by certain Elves, all 700 of the little feckers! Malicorne were a cut above, but when you've been brought up on The Manband, Gong and Magma as well as Harry Cox, Seamus Ennis and Davie Stewart, then the whole concept of folk rock just pales. That said Bright Phoebus is a national treasure; I once argued with a bunch of Fairport fans that the only time R.Thompson et al had come close to truly honouring their folk roots was on Danny Rose, but I was very drunk at the time. That said, I like the story that Peter Bellamy accepted the invitation to become Fairport's singer. How would that have turned out?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 01:47 PM

Donovan claims that he didn't copy Dylan, but rather, like Dylan, he was influenced by Woody; also, Donovan claims to have invented folk-rock, and that The Beatles got the idea for "All You Need is Love" from him. He also, claims - and believe him here - that he taught The Beatles to finger pick in a style that we now call "pattern playing", and that "Blackbird", for example, grew out of that style of picking.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 01:55 PM

There is no doubt that Catch the Wind caught a lot of peoples attention. I remember John Denver saying that he was obsessed with it at one point; and it has been covered by lots of artists. Here is a very early recording by Bruce Springsteen. Interestingly, one poster on Youtube points out that Bruce was only 17/18 when he recorded this, but, more to the point, Donovan was only 17/18 when he wrote it!

Bruce sings Donovan


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 03:16 PM

Dare I say that in my youth when hearing the likes of Donovan, Dylan, S&G, and others noted in this thread, they were all mushed together on the local rock station and, so, were considered rock and or pop-rock by most people I knew? Granted we lived in an isolated valley in the far reaches of Colorado, but I don't think any of us had heard of folk rock at the time. I may have been a bit young to catch all of the nuances of the times, though, I grant. I didn't care then and and don't now, though. I know what I like and I don't care what it is labelled.:-)

As for Americans, I would also say give Willson & McKee a listen. (Pronounced Mc-KYE) I've been one of their fans for years and Kim, esp. just keeps turning out more and more incredible songs and she is INCREDIBLE on the hammer dulcimer. Folks may remember I used to sing her song, The Pattern, in HearMe and PalTalk. You can hear more samples and other stuff on their website HERE. I see by their schedule, they are finally getting some much deserved recognition.

kat


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 11:35 PM

I know what I like and I don't care what it is labelled.:-) >>>

A fairf view for anyone living on a desert island. But, if communication is to be attainable, a reasonable degree of taxonomy or categorisation is essential. Were it not so, there wouldn't be quite so many 'What is Folk?'threads going on ad inf, would there?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 12:22 AM

Not sure about that. That may be a bit like if there's no one to hear it does a tree make a sound in the forest when it falls. If no one tells me it's folk, is it still folk? Or vice versa, even.**bg**


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 12:52 AM

Icon maybe, maybe not

I've always loved Donovan's singing of
Black Is the Color (Trad)
Atlantis
Catch The Wind
Colours
Epistle To Dippy
Barabajagal
There Is A Mountain
Season Of The Witch
Sunshine Superman
To Susan On The West Coast Waiting
Universal Soldier (Buffy St Marie)
Wear Your Love Like Heaven
Guinevere
The Tinker and the Crab

After his double album 'Wear Your Love Like Heaven' & 'A Gift From A Flower to a Garden' which there were songs on which I loved & some of them I still do, I began to fade as a fan. (my kids loved falling to sleep to my singing of some of his songs from both of those, some 2 decades after I first heard them)
He also was on the scene when it came to protesting the Viet Nam War through music & his career suffered some for it too, not nearly as much or as bad as Buffy but he was cut too. He has possibily over 30 LP's to his name & I'm not gonna count the number of hits but I'm sure it's more than most here who are tossing the shit his way. Am I making anybody squirm.
I love Trad music as much as anyone one else here & probably am a bit stiffer about mixing it up with rock & singer/songwriter stuff but when he was in his prime he was well loved by those of my generation that didn't have their heads stuck up their asses or weren't straight laced trad-o-fucks.
I never met the guy but as far as I know anyone who did that I spoke to spoke highly of him (not like that Dylan guy, who was a pain in the ass to those that I've met who've met him, yet he's an icon), his accessability & his human humbleness.

Someone wants to give him some praise, "LET THEM" their are plenty of famous fucks out there in folkdom that got a lot more with folkies approval & who deserved far less.
Many folkies came to this music through the likes of him & a good few others of his time & day

If he were in my area, I'd go to see his in a New York second, as I would John Sebastain, Buffy St Marie, Spider John Keorner, Paul Butterfield, Richie Havens, Grace Slick, Jim Kweskin, etc.

Barry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 02:23 AM

Who cares??...Practice your axe!...or ax....or acts!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 02:43 AM

Good talk, Barry. I've just been listening to the Donovan/Troubadour retrospective, and it's all good. And we all learned "Universal Soldier" from him--


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: rich-joy
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 03:38 AM

Icon - no - but nevertheless, good at what he does!

But do checkout Donovan's biography :

"The Hurdy Gurdy Man"

from 2005 - I found it rather interesting reading!


Cheers, R-J


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: meself
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 09:05 AM

'And we all learned "Universal Soldier" from him-- '

Um - not 'all' of us - I didn't know he had recorded it until I read this thread - it was always a Buffy song to me. Not to take anything away from Donovan by the way; I always like him. Must say, I'm a little surprised by some of the antipathy toward him here.

Speaking of Buffy - warning: thread drift ahead - anyone care to elaborate on how her opposition to the Vietnam War effected her career (as per Barry Finn's post above)?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 09:32 AM

Chimes of Freedom:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1PDaw7s3pY

I don't think it sounds like Catch the Wind at all [at all!]



**********

Irregardless [not really a word!] of my earlier post, I don't think Donovan's an 'icon' [whatever that's supposed to mean in this context], but I always enjoyed his performances way back when.

Catch the Wind's still popular in seshes all over this area [NW Eng & N.Wales] , as are one or two of his others, Colours, Why do you treat me like you do, Dona Dona


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 09:54 AM

I love my shirt
I love my shirt
My shirt is so comfortably lovely


Unfathomable talent - a bit of a back-handed compliment.


E-lec-tri-cal banana
Going to be a sudden craze

Not an icon but always fun to listen to.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:06 AM

just to add a slightly different perspective..

back in the early 70's when people my age were in their early to mid teens..

Donovan's career was loosely evaluted as divided into 3 phases.

1] The really good post 'sunshine superman' psycedelic pop-folk-rock LPs and 45s
peaking with "Gift from a Flower" double LP boxset

2] The not quite so good late 60's early 70's tax exiled 'mature earnest artist'
and post breakdown career comeback phase..
All downhill after the best tracks on "Open Road" & "Cosmic Wheels"

3] The early dated solo 'troubadour' recordings which mostly sounded a bit dull
and trite in comparison, and were devalued by association
from all the 'cash in' cheapo budget label "Golden Hour of.."
type re-releases..

But if it wasn't for Donovan, I probably wouldn't have so easily got into Pentangle..
and then start scouring local Library's for other folk artist and 'Topic' LPs..

Then a few years later as Punk rock was raging
in the big urban cities,

Steve Hillage covered "Hurdy Gurdy" man..

and all the pieces fell into place..

.. my small market town in the west country become a natural breeding ground
for adolescent 'cider and mushroom and pothead pixie' punk folk bands...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:26 AM

In his recording of ' Universal Soldier ' Donovan wouldn't sing,

" Without him how would Hitler have condemned him at DACHAU " , he sang some nonsense word for fear of offending anyone.

Dave H


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:30 AM

.........& the unforgetable 'Intergalactic Laxative'!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 11:02 AM

Dave H: I don't think that's the case! I'm sure Donovan just couldn't make out what Buffy said. American's, as you know, speak/sing in very strange accents!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 11:05 AM

"Dachau" sounds pretty clear to me in this LIVE RECORDING.

Barrydarlin'...I think I am in love. Please don't ever stop telling it like it is!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: open mike
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 11:54 AM

Buffy St. Marie is not an american,
she is Canadian, and they talk funny, too, eh?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 12:11 PM

Dave Hansen--According to someone or other at "Straight Dope", Donovan originally sang, "Liebau"," which was the German name for the Polish town of Lubawka. During the war, Lubawka was the site of a training centre for the Hitler-Jugend (Hitler Youth). There was also a labour camp situated in the vicinity."

Meself--Donovan, not Buffy, had the big a hit single of "Universal Soldier"--


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 12:17 PM

Well, Buffy is a north American!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 12:45 PM

In that live performance, I distinctly hear DUH-cow.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 12:59 PM

And, before I forget, contrary to what any of you may think, DONOVAN IS AN ICON!!!!

There, I said it, and it is true. He was and still is the ultimate symbol of the Peace/Love generation. They use his songs in movies, commercials, and even cartoons when they want to evoke those good old incense burning, pot smoking, Maharishi-filled days when we thought that all you needed was love.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 03:00 PM

Sounded more like Daccar to me.

Dave HANSON, note M Ted not Hansen

Dave H


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 03:00 PM

And lest we forget, this is the man who wrote Hurdygurdy Man. That alone should stand him in good stead for icon status.

When I was a kid, the one "folk" album in my parents' house was a budget Donovan album called "Universal Soldier". I loved it. Of course, at the time I didn't know it was "folk"... I only found that out later. Then I started posting at Mudcat and found out it wasn't...

It's enough to turn you mellow yellow.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:23 PM

Sorry I misspelled your name, DaveH, no slight was intended--I listened to the cut from Fairytale this afternoon, and he does seem to be singing "Liebau"--he did sing "Dachau" in later years, however. Till I read the "Straight Dope" account, I hadn't any clue as to what or why he was singing, however, and have no particular attachment to that explanation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 11:53 PM

I am very nearly an icon. I was told the other day that I am already a cult. I think that is what he said anyway...

First there is no mountain
Then there is a mountain
Then there is no mountain
Then there is.

Makes sense to me anyway.

:D (eG)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 02:49 AM

Fine by me M Ted, incidently I was a fan in his early years, still got the odd vinyl album and a CD or two.

Dave H


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 08:07 AM

Is being an "icon" worthy of great status than being "a legend in your own time"?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: meself
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 08:55 AM

"I was a fan in his early years"

Meanwhile, (in the spirit of some of his lyrics), I was an air conditioner.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 05:32 PM

Well that's a breath of fresh air meself.

Dave H


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:16 PM

split it into 4 periods
1-learning the folk idiom eg to try for the sun
2 -psychedelic folk/rock eg Celeste
3 pop star..some good songs
4 shit


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:21 PM

and btw i am a donovan fan
bootleg material from 65-69 proves the excellence of his talent
anything after 1973 is dodgy in quality


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:57 PM

I


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:02 PM

I cant believe some of the posts I have read.
Donovan is a good singer,his words are clear,he is not singing nonsense at any point in The Universal Soldier.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:07 PM

I think some of his later work should definitely be featured in the "wimp" thread that's running at the moment.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Is This Man An Icon ?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:17 PM

"The Universal Soldier."

I think you know that was written by Buffy St Marie.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 22 June 11:57 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.