BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett

Subject: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:04 PM

Maybe it's me..but I think this idea absolutely stinks, bearing in mind that Wootton Bassett is the town where our dead soldiers come home to..

Details from The Swindon Advertiser

Islam4UK


Whilst I do not understand why our soldiers are fighting this 'war'..I find this idea totally insensitive and repugnant.

The chap who is organising it said on Radio 5 this morning that he knew it would gain maximum news coverage if he staged it there...The man interviewing him was having great trouble being polite to this deeply insensitive prat.

If you don't like this country and it's laws, way of life, and religious beliefs, then find a country you do like and bugger off over there. It's that easy...and sorry, but that ain't racist...that comes from someone who is now sick to death at the enemy amongst us, who seek to cause maximum distress and unrest in this country, whilst taking all they can from us.

Yeesh! Have we lost the plot in this country, or what?


I suggest Mr. Choudray takes his beliefs elsewhere....and asks those within the Taliban how many innocent Afghanis they've killed, and how many hundreds of thousands they rule over, by creating absolute terror amongst their own people.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:12 PM

And here is his letter, from the Islam4UK site....

>>>>>>>DATED 3rd January 2010

May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon those who follow the guidance.

Following the public announcement of an impending procession by islam4uk (a branch of Al-Muhajiroun) through the Market Town of Wootton Basset we thought it only appropriate that we provide an explanation and a little more about the purpose behind the procession, especially to the family and friends of those who have died there and who may have been led to believe that it is merely an act of incitement or provocation.

We begin by inviting all non-Muslims to Islam, the perfect and most beautiful way of life, a favour from Allah (God) to mankind to take him out of the darkness of worshipping his own desires to the exclusive worship, submission and obedience of Allah alone, without partners and to testify the Messenger-ship of the final Prophet Muhammad (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). We urge you to embrace Islam and save yourselves and your family from the hellfire and not to believe the lies and distortions which the Western media and non-Islamic regimes would have you believe about Muslims and their true intentions. Islam means submission and the Muslim is the one who submits to the will of God in his life. Verily the Messenger Muhammad told us that whoever heard his name from the Jews and Christians and did not believe would be held accountable for that on the day of judgement.

We start by pointing out what many wise people already know i.e. that the British public have once again been lied to by their politicians about the war in Afghanistan. What began as a fight for freedom and democracy and to protect the human rights of the civilians and to find Sheikh Usama Bin Laden (by the use of B52 bombers) has today become a campaign to protect the security of the British public back home and it has gone from being a campaign which could be completed without firing a weapon within 3 years to one which could go on for 40 or 50 years with a heavy cost to the participants.

In actual fact the foreign policy of the USA and UK is not about protecting the rights of Muslims or propagating democracy and freedom nor is it about the threat posed by the people in Afghanistan to the British public at all, but rather it is to establish their own military, economic, strategic and ideological interests in the region. The rich resources of Afghanistan, its position on the cusp between the Indian sub-continent, Southern Russian, Asia and China and its populations call for the Shari'ah are the real reasons why the military has sought to establish a permanent role there, no matter what the cost to the lives and wealth of the indigenous people or indeed their own. Pivotal in this is the desire to prevent Muslims from running their own affairs and establishing an Islamic State if they so wish but rather to maintain a puppet in the area (Mr Karzia) to maintain and protect Western interests.

In order to create an atmosphere where these greedy objectives can be accomplished the Western and even Eastern media have constantly shown atrocities being committed against the ordinary people of Afghanistan and Pakistan, in markets, universities and public gathering places and have then blamed these on the perceived enemy, in order to discredit any legitimate struggle for liberation and in order to demonise them in the eyes of the world and thereby justify the occupation and real intentions. The truth about such bloodshed and mayhem is only now becoming public knowledge after information about the real perpetrators has emerged (such as the CIA related agency Black Water). The billions of dollars paid to the Pakistan regime by the USA/UK alliance and to the Secret services in Pakistan, their army and to the Karzai Afghan regime by way of bribes has led them to slaughter their own citizens with the help of the USA/UK and to then blame the Taliban in an attempt to subdue those seeking liberation to fulfil their right to run their lives by divine law and to protect the US/UK military and economic interests. With additional atrocities being committed by the USA and UK through indiscriminate air raids and other operations the number of ordinary Muslim men, women and children who have been killed has reached horrendous proportions. Not to mention the torture and abuse of basic rights by the occupiers in Afghanistan, such as in Bagram Air Base, the case of Dr Affia Siddiqui being a clear and brutal example.

There is no doubt in most people's minds that the final conclusion to the current conflict in Afghanistan has already been written. Ultimate victory for those fighting in their own backyard, familiar with the mountains and plains and their supporters who struggle to protect their sanctities from the foreign aggressors cannot be denied. The signs for this are already appearing with incohesive thinking among the British and American chain of command, the crippling effect of the war on their economies back home and the depression of the soldiers realising that there is no real moral or ethic reason for them to murder innocent men, women and children to fulfil their politicians agenda. Blaming a lack of equipment is one of the ways in which politicians have tried to shift the focus. It is noteworthy that unlike among the US and UK soldiers, there has not been one reported suicide or attempted suicide among those resisting occupation.

As a consequence this can only mean much more destruction for the USA and UK sons and daughters sent by their uncaring leaders to their deaths. After all this would not be the first time that this region has acted as a grave yard for empires in history, notably the British and Russians.

It is worth reminding those who are still not blinded by the media propaganda that Afghanistan is not a British Town near Wootton Basset but rather Muslim land which no one has the right to occupy, with a Muslim population who do not deserve their innocent men, women and children to be killed for political mileage and for the greedy interests of the oppressive US and UK regimes.

The procession in Wootton Basset is therefore an attempt to engage the British publics minds on the real reasons why their soldiers are returning home in body bags and the real cost of the war. The conflict in Afghanistan is not an 'honourable' defence of British values and a cause for the British to remain secure, rather the presence of the US and UK forces in Afghanistan is the cause of instability in the region and a cause of insecurity for the British people back home. The parades, the speeches about soldiers doing their duty and the feeling of patriotism has obfuscated the reality of the conflict and the murderous crimes being committed by the occupiers and their agents. The British public is blissfully unaware of what is being done in their name by the Blair/Brown regimes and were the truth known no doubt the pressure to withdraw all troops immediately would be much greater.

It is our desire to end the cycle of violence and the quagmire in which we find ourselves in today in Afghanistan. For the British public to do their duty and force their regime to save their children from death and destruction, from an oppressive and costly campaign and to stop the occupation of Muslim land. We realise that, especially in times of war, we are up against a very sophisticated propaganda machine and no doubt raising awareness about the painful truth of this conflict will unleash a torrent of abuse from the media and government against us, who have their own predetermined agenda, however the world is today also small enough for those wishing to verify the truth to be able to do so via the many news and information outlets.




Mr Anjem Choudary

UK Head of Al-Muhajiroun <<<<<<<


I'd suggest he speaks to the Oppressed Women of Afghanistan before he criticises our soldiers too much. Ask his own soldiers how they treat their own people...

Ho hum...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:15 PM

We've been driving my step daughter to the airport today and have been listening to the coverage of this on the radio. Approving/disapproving of the war and honouring the dead are two different things. We still honour the dead of WW1 whilst sometimes questioning whether that war should have been fought at all.

The people of Wootton Bassett are not trying to make a political point and to hi-jack this for politico-religious reasons smacks of being a cheap political stunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:16 PM

Sorry, I meant to say "cheap publicity stunt".

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:31 PM

The women of Afghanistan are no better off under the people the UK and US governments support than they are under the Taliban. Here's a feminist who has spent time with women in Afghanistan and asked them what they want, talking about what they told her. (Here's a hint - they want the US and UK to get out of their country - but who cares what they want, right?)...

http://www.miptalk.com/?p=325


I guess you don't believe in free speech. That makes you a lot like the repressive regimes you're criticizing here in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:34 PM

"We begin by inviting all non-Muslims to Islam, the perfect and most beautiful way of life, a favour from Allah (God)..." ~ Mr Anjem Choudary

I have heard many interviews and discussions concerning Islam in recent years, and most of the followers say that Islam will eventually become the religion of all people on Earth.

They don't care how long it takes or how many people are hurt in the process.

Followers of Islam are told to force conversion (when they gain power to do so) in three steps:

          1) ask the infidels to convert

          2) demand that the infidels convert

          3) if the first two steps don't work, kill them

Note: the UK is just at step 1.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:38 PM

The originator of this thread has no problem with Christian nurses proselityzing their patients, but she doesn't like it when Muslims proselityze. So it's ok for Christianity to try to convert the world, but not Islam. I find it very amusing and at the same time alarming to see the double standards people apply to Islam as compared to other religions.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:41 PM

pdq, please provide some documentation for your anti-Muslim screed.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: PaulF
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:41 PM

The punishment visited upon both those who convert from Islam to any other religion, and for those who try to convert Moslems to another religion, is death.
Methinks someone is taking advantage of the sort of free speech we allow here, but is not allowed in any Moslem country I know of.
PaulF

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:48 PM

PaulF, that is not what all Muslims believe. Only the more extreme Muslims. We have Christians in my country who believe that children who disobey their parents should be stoned to death. We only ever hear about the Muslim extremists and people like you try to tell us that they represent all Muslims, while nobody ever talks about the extremists from other religions. And you can't criticize Muslim countries for not allowing free speech if you don't support it yourself. If you don't believe in free speech, you're no better than they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:52 PM

"I guess you don't believe in free speech. That makes you a lot like the repressive regimes you're criticizing here in this thread."

I believe in speech being used for Good, not Evil.

We have tolerated way too much Evil, for way too long...in my opinion.


I've had my freedom of speech taken away from me, by the BBC and by those on here who were part of the witch hunt, Carol...yet all I ever did was dared to talk about social issues and protest songs, so please, do not talk to me about freedom of speech.

If you use your voice to stir up hatred and evil, then I feel you absolutely deserve to have your right to freedom of speech removed.

Sorry, but the women of Afghanistan know no other way of life than the terrible one they've had forced on them for so long. Until the women of the Middle East, in general, rise as one to put an end to the male dominated society which prevails in so many countries over there, life will never improve for them...no matter how much people from the West try to help.

We had many Middle Eastern female patients who came to us to seek refuge from husbands who beat them. That's what they did, went off around Europe, consulting various doctors, about this or that, illness that didn't really exist...just fear which brought them so low...It was paid for by their Health Offices in those days...At least it gave them a break from their terrible fear filled lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:57 PM

I'd have no problem with a nurse who wanted to pray to Allah for one of her patients, actually, Carol. It would all be done in kindness, nothing else.

I do have a deep problem with Extremists, of any religion, or country...who preach hatred against others.

We've put up with it for way too long in this country, because of our hugely tolerant nature...

Well, you can push the British just so far...

Personally, I've reached my limit with all this crap..and to be honest, I would LOVE to hear Good and Decent Voices from the true Muslim community condemning all the crap that is going on around them, in their God's name.

It is way past time for The Good Men and True to stand together, as one religion, one nation, one colour and tell the evil minorities that enough is enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 01:59 PM

But it's ok for people from your country to go into other people's countries and kill their women and children, and steal their resources. I think you don't understand what evil is, Lizzy. Keep in mind that the government of your country for centuries went into other people's countries and subjugated them, treated them as slaves, took their resources, converted them to Christianity by force, and otherwise made their lives a misery. And now your government is doing it again. And when they try to tell you they don't like it (after having fled to your country because it's the only place they are safe from the predations of your government and mine), you call them evil. Well, I think that's a case of the pot calling the kettle sooty.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 02:02 PM

And I dare you to listen to the talk I posted earlier in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 02:14 PM

Carol, the people who did terrible things in the past are long dead and gone.

My country also gave birth to William Wilberforce and a great many other people who believed in freedom for people and who worked their butts off, dedicated their lives to ending slavery around the world.

I will never give in to the 'Oh you're country was so awful' brigade, because my country did a helluva lot of GOOD things too, and even to this day the good things from those times still remain in many countries where Great Britain once dwelt.

Most countries have skeletons, as do most religions...

Willaim Wilberforce is still, to this day, a man who influences many for the good, especially in the US, where the Amazing Change movement is.

Yes, I understand Evil alright...and right now, it is amongst many of us. As a sweet cleaning lady once said to me, back when my son was in hospital as a very young boy..."During the War we could see the enemy, dear. Now it seems to be amongst us, hidden"

How right she was.

And I'm not just talking about the religous fanatics there, of all religions, but those who seek to undermine society, dumb it down, bring it down, for their own ends, whomsoever they may be.

And....I'd appreciate it if you didn't use *your* freedom of speech to directly imply that I have double standards or any other such values. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 02:19 PM

Yusuf - The one 'Islam' that I believe in, and the one that so many within 'the other Islam' have so much to learn from........"Spread the message of Peace"

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 02:26 PM

The man organising this planned march/protest has already made himself notorious on several previous media outings. He is clever, and knows that this plan will provoke hostile responses. He will thereafter be able to point to those responses as evidence of anti-Islamic sentiment.

So to oppose him vociferously is to play into his hands.

Unsurprisingly, some of his most vigorous critics are other British Muslims, wno are only too aware that his main aim is to ensure the prolongation of animosity.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: bubblyrat
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 02:32 PM

Gosh !! Until tonight, I had had absolutely NO IDEA that the government of the country I love had sent our troops into Afghanistan in order to kill all the women and children AND steal that country's resources.
    So thanks, Carol------now I understand ! So, next time these Muslim zealots and extremists mindlessly slaughter a train-load of commuters or a 747-load of holiday-makers, I will be that much better equipped to fully appreciate the reasons for this disgusting,pointless,sub-human behaviour. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 05:51 PM

CarolC my son is about to deploy to Afghanistan for his fourth tour. It might surprise you to know that at no time has he been instructed or specifically trained to kill their women and their children or "steal their resources", in fact as far as their rules of engagement go they are strictly prohibited from opening fire if doing so risks the death of any unarmed Afghan person.

Now you did state the following with what appeared to be a marked degree of certainty:

"But it's ok for people from your country to go into other people's countries and kill their women and children, and steal their resources. I think you don't understand what evil is, Lizzy. Keep in mind that the government of your country for centuries went into other people's countries and subjugated them, treated them as slaves, took their resources, converted them to Christianity by force, and otherwise made their lives a misery. And now your government is doing it again."

And now we (the UK) are "doing it again" examples please? What resources have been stolen? I keep asking such as yourself who keep coming out with this crap for an example and none are ever given. You now have the opportunity to put up or shut up.

As Lizzie Cornish has said on balance the British Empire was a force for good in this world, no nation on earth did more to eradicate the slave trade. So we go "into peoples countries subjugate them, treat them as slaves, take their resources and convert them to Christianity by force" - tell me how all that went down in India CarolC? Would you describe India as a Christian country CarolC, it would be if what you stated was true wouldn't it. How about medical benefits of the British Empire CarolC, tell me about the cures passed down to the people by the local rulers, what did they do about malaria (which still holds the record as the greatest killer on earth)?

Care to explain the phenomenon of the Commonwealth CarolC? Second largest international organisation to the United Nations itself. care to explain why countries that have never had any political or historical ties to the UK apply to join this organisation, in which every member has an equal say and in which countries who do not live up to the required standards are expelled by majority decision.

You are very good at knocking CarolC, but woeful when it comes to suggesting alternatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 07:52 PM

Tunnel Vision Rules !

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:15 PM

It could be that the protest is a very bad idea, in bad taste, etc., but let's stick to what this country is supposed to believe in and do nothing to stop it going ahead as long as nothing illegal is planned. I can't think what it is the protesters are trying to achieve, but so be it. You have three choices: support it, ignore it or treat it with dignified disdain. Dignified. And read the papers the next day and see how the holier-than-thou gutter press gleefully make money out of splashing their righteous "outrage" across the front pages.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:31 PM

The Battle for Hearts and Minds goes both ways. (Is the guy's funding home grown?)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:35 PM

So let me get this correct. Some barmpot - for publicity purposes - proposes some nutty idea which will never get off the ground in a month of Sundays.

And people take this seriously?

I have done things like this for publicity. I managed to get the college I worked for on Page Three of "The Sun". Then it was newspaper after newspaper, radio station after radio station for about three weeks. I became an "expert".

The newspapers are suckers for this sort of horlicks and people jump on the bandwagon.

This man no more represents the Muslim point of view than I do.

As for the British Empire being a force for good, when the British arrived in Africa the Africans owned the land and the British had the bible.

Shortly afterwards the Africans had the bible and the British owned the land.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:52 PM

Posts like bubblyrat's abpve bring to mind a couple of lines by Yeats: "The best lack all conviction, while the worst/Are full of passionate intensity." (Or words to that effect.)

An organiser of the proposed demonstration (perhaps Mr Choudry?) was on the UK's Channel 4 News tonight, debating with the father of a British soldier (dead I assume - I missed the intros). Of the two, the Muslim was infinitely the more composed, coherent and rational. The soldier's dad was completely hung up on the fragile argument that once a UK government has declared war, all British subjects should support the troops. Even in the US, where "my country right or wrong" still retains some credibility, large elements of its citizenry fell well short of that ideal during the Vietnam war.

Those who bang on about the excesses of the Taliban should keep in mind that, as the US-based Slovenian academic Slavoj Žižek observed on the BBC World Service (Hardtalk) recently, muslims in Afghanistan were overwhelmingly moderate,, with liberal outlook before the successive interventions of the USSR and the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 12:08 AM

Whether or not UK (or US) military are instructed to kill women and children is immaterial to the loved ones of the women and children who are being killed. And while UK forces aren't in Afghanistan to steal resources, they are there to help secure the route of an oil pipeline, and also to provide the US and UK with a staging point for other military adventures in the region. They're definitely not there for the benefit of the people of Afghanistan, who would prefer that they would leave. So people of that region have a perfect right to protest what the UK government and military are doing in that country. And since the UK is supposed to have free speech, they also have a perfect right to do it in the UK. Those who don't think they should have that right are no better than the repressive regimes they criticize in that regard.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:31 AM

Well.
Let this idiot have his march...I would heartily recommend though that all the inhabitants of Wootton Bassett go shopping in Swindon for the day.
Then these people can shout as loud as they like, and no-one will be there to hear them.
I defend Freedom of speech for all. I also defend Freedom to ignore if that is my wish.
In this case I choose to ignore.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:34 AM

And maybe the media should shut up too.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 04:11 AM

From Ralphie...."I defend Freedom of speech for all. I also defend Freedom to ignore if that is my wish."

Well, well, WELL!   What a surprise. And...what a shame that you never chose to defend MY freedom of speech, rather than continually attack it...or that you chose never to use your 'freedom to ignore' preferring your 'freedom to bully' instead.   

Hypocrisy has never sat easy with me.




Why the hell should the people of Swindon, or anywhere else, have to put up with this prat?

Where do you draw the line at human rights and freedom?

If you take some of the comments in here seriously, then Hitler's beliefs would still be all around us, because his followers would have the 'right' to kill the Jews, or stand on street corners spewing out their hatred..for after all, if a human being wants to kill another human being, taking the line above, then the liberals would argue that it's their right to be free thinking and to be able to carry out what they want, what they believe....And if you try to stop them, then you don't believe in freedom of speech, freedom of thought, or freedom of action.

What a load of absolute baloney!   

Evil Is As Evil Does.

....and because of bloody political correctness we have all let that Evil rise and rise and rise...to the point where we are now imprisoned by our so-called 'freedom'.




"Those who bang on about the excesses of the Taliban should keep in mind that, as the US-based Slovenian academic Slavoj Žižek observed on the BBC World Service (Hardtalk) recently, muslims in Afghanistan were overwhelmingly moderate,, with liberal outlook before the successive interventions of the USSR and the US."

Tell that to the young girls, scarred for life purely for DARING to go to school, after the Taliban threw acid in their faces. Geez, some of you people have no idea how some of the women in the Middle East suffer.

Carol, I would lay my life on the fact that nearly all the troops out there would hate to have to kill a woman or a child...and would go out of their way to help them wherever possible.

Yes, some soldiers ARE trained to kill women and children..and the reason? Because the Taliban use women and children to bring bombs to the troops, just as Yasser Arafat trained children to kill...And the reason he did it? Because he knew that most people would rather die themselves before they killed a child....and that the earlier you can train a child to kill, the better fighters you have, because the implanted hatred runs through them so deeply.

There is really nothing more evil than that...

Children in many countries in the Middle East are taught to spit on the US flag, to regard them as their enemy from so early on, that by the time they reach adulthood, they are well and truly brainwashed.

Getting back to this Choudary person.....well of course he's able to stay rational and composed. So did Hitler...

The father of the murdered soldier, on the other hand, had lost his reason for life itself, and therefore will obviously be far more passionate and incensed, particularly at what this insensitive prat is trying to do, because he has held his dead son in his arms, buried him and will grieve for him for the rest of his life.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 04:34 AM

Hitler's beliefs would still be all around us

They still are, but madlizziecornish chooses to ignore and castigate movements such as Folk Against Fascism because she's taken an irrational dislike to people involved.

In this country, demonstrations about whatever you happen to want or believe in (within reason) are pemitted. If you don't agree with them, don't go. And don't confuse the issue of whether going to war in Afghanistan was A Good Thing with the rights or otherwise of ethnic minorities in this country. In other words, try putting brain into gear before screeching.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:25 AM

"If you take some of the comments in here seriously, then Hitler's beliefs would still be all around us, because his followers would have the 'right' to kill the Jews"

Ummmm...no. The right to free speech and the right to free action are two different things. One is a fundamental principle of democracy, the other is not.

"or stand on street corners spewing out their hatred."

But they do. Google Casuals United. Or pop over to Codnor next summer.

I think this protest is misguided and in bad taste, but it has every right to go ahead. I do not think it will advance the cause of racial harmony or integration in the UK, so I think it will be unfortunate if it does take place, but that is no reason to stop it.

Freedom of speech is exactly that - it isn't just about defending the stuff you agree with, or your own right to say whatever you like.


"If you don't like this country and it's laws, way of life, and religious beliefs, then find a country you do like and bugger off over there."

Interestingly, that's pretty much how the BNP and groups like Casuals United feel. So how does this attitude sit alongside the concept of free speech? You've proudly announced in the past that you've got Billy Bragg's Progressive patriot on your bookshelf - it would be much more impressive if you'd actually read it, because then you might understand the alternative history of your own county - its history of dissent. Go and see Tony Benn and Roy Bailey's The Writing on the Wall to learn even more about your own proud heritage of dissent, and to find out why these Muslim protestors, while they may not be saying things you like, are continuing a long and deep-rooted British tradition.

You are the most glorious mass of contradictions, Lizzie. On the one hand, you screech and rant at the most insignificant little perceived injustices, and it's all phoning the press and storming the barracades and taking action over inflated water bills in the spirit of Tolpuddle and the like; on the other hand, anyone who doesn't like the way things work in this country should bugger off out of it.

Well, you can't have it both ways. Either you respect the right of others to express their dissent through peaceful protest, or you put a sock in it yourself the next time you get up a head of indignant steam.

Which is it to be?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:29 AM

Lizzie,

"Where do you draw the line at human rights and freedom?"

You don't.

"If you take some of the comments in here seriously, then Hitler's beliefs would still be all around us, because his followers would have the 'right' to kill the Jews,"

Killing Jews is not a human right.

The right of Jews not to be killed is a human right.

See how it works?



GUEST

"I think it's great they are holding their protest here. Maybe it will help highlight how Islamic Britain has more rights that than the rest of us."

They will be marching up a street waving banners and demonstrating.

Presumably noone else is allowed to do this?

Nope - anyone may demonstrate. (though ironically the home secretary has said he would support a ban)

what "right" will they be demonstrating that "the rest of us" don't have?

PS

It is still iillegal for him to incite hattred.

If he argues the same case featured in his letter/press release then he can't be said to be doing that.


On a personal level, my instinctive reaction to him was that he sported the same arrogant smugness as someone like Nick Griffin.

My iinstinctive reaction to the protest in wooton Basset is to compare him to that other paragon of virtue and piety - reverend phelps.

The significant and fundamental difference is that Chaudary will not be celebrating the deaths of British soldiers, but mourning the deaths of Afghani civilians and highlighting what he believes to be the needlessness of the British deaths.

If he is associated in any way with Islamist politics (Islamism meaning extreme politicized fundamentalism) then I would be very cautious about his where hhe intends to go with it.

If on the other hand he remains consiistent with the views expressed in his letter, then whether I agree or not, there is no reason why he should be denied a platform.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:38 AM

As I've said in prose and verse, and have received so much flak for over the years, it's THE WORLD that should be multicultural.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:41 AM

When will the British people reclaim their country ? Try heading over to one of their third world countries and wave a banner supporting British troops. The British people are not going to take this crap much longer. The election in spring is going to bring a few surprises.

The Labour government has a lot to answer for.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:54 AM

The right of free speech.

But didn't we go in to give them free speech? Ironic.

We went to stop the training of terrorists. Looks like we just kept them in that country (by and large).

History has to repeat itself, no-one is listening. Afghanistan is a fight that historically no-one seems to win, even the rightful residents.

But I am a firm believer in dialogue (or more correctly duologue). If you can't talk to people how can you carry a message? Shouting isn't talking.
Silent vigil is eloquent. In the culture we have in the UK at least. Our soldiers are there for us, we must support them. If we don't like the fight, fight the politicians. But once you start these things you have to have the courage to at least do a half decent job, or the consequences are far worse than doing nothing in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:03 AM

Lox, a very astute comparison between Choudary & the dreadful Phelps. Both use a cloak of religious faith the incite and foster trouble. Cunningly, they both exploit 'free speech' dilemmas to garner publicity that is way out of proportion to the tiny minorities who share their views.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:04 AM

"The election in spring is going to bring a few surprises."

No - I shouldn't think so.

People won't be so apathetic this time after the European elections so there won't be any BNP.

Labour will lose out, but maybe not by as much as the Tories might have hoped last year.

People may say that they still aren't happy with the two main parties, but they would rather vote than not vote.

The Tories will get the largest share of the vote.

But I also predict an increase in the Lib Dem share.

The only question is: by how much?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:29 AM

Yes, thank you, I am well aware that many still preach hatred towards Jews and others...but what I meant was that all this liberalism has played a big part in letting evil in.

For so long now, people have been bullied into feeling they have no right to say "This is wrong and I totally disagree with it!" because they've lived in fear of constantly being called racist or facist...when neither of those is actually the issue at all.

We've fallen over ourselves NOT to risk causing any offence to others, no matter what they do, always choosing to put the alternative view forward, as in..."Yes, but they do have a right to this and that and everything else"...and the very people who've been doing evil, who are still doing evil, have been laughing all the way to the Politically Correct Bank, where they store their savings of hatred and plots.

The original belief of Islam was peace. It has been twisted and maimed almost beyond recognition for decades now, by those who seek to control, seek to take over the world, seek to destroy and it is way past time for the world, and the Good Islamic World to wake up and send them packing, because if we don't....................................................





>>>Lizzie,

"Where do you draw the line at human rights and freedom?"

You don't.

"If you take some of the comments in here seriously, then Hitler's beliefs would still be all around us, because his followers would have the 'right' to kill the Jews,"

Killing Jews is not a human right.

The right of Jews not to be killed is a human right.

See how it works?<<<<<


Gosh, yes....now I think I've got it! (said with just the merest hint of rolling eyes up to heaven.)


Sorry Lox, but if you take the extremist liberal views so often shown in Mudcat, then everyone would have the right to do everything.

They don't.

It is everyone's human right to be able to live their lives in peace and freedom...and that includes the women of Afghanistan. And if we all lived our lives according to that simple Right, there'd be no need for wars, no armies, no violence...

We have so much to learn...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:39 AM

"Yes, but they do have a right to this and that and everything else"

Not THEY, Lizzie. WE. The "liberalism" you blame for "letting evil in" exists to ensure that everyone in this country has the SAME basic human rights - regardless of how much money they have, the colour of their skin, or where they were born. Not to give one group more rights than others - that's your Daily Mail hysteria creeping in again.

I believed that Nick Griffin should not have been prevented from appearing on Question Time, just as I believe that, misguided as this protest at Wootton Bassett may be, it should be allowed to go ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:01 AM

Pity that the tolerance shown towards these would be demonstrators, isn't extended towards those who disagree with them.
Or does tolerance disappear, when you dislike the person expressing the views, more than you dislike the views they express?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:05 AM

"what I meant was that all this liberalism has played a big part in letting evil in."

I see ... so if we had a totalitarian government, and if women and blacks couldn't vote, and if society was segregated and homosexuality was still illegal then the fascists wouldn't be able to sneak in?

Or n other words, the more liberal a society gets the greater the power that fascists have.

Hmmm ... I don't know why I didn't think of it before ...


"Sorry Lox, but if you take the extremist liberal views so often shown in Mudcat, then everyone would have the right to do everything."


Lizzie, you misunderstand what "human rights" are.

Human rights and "the right to do everything" are not the same thing.

To learn what human rights are, have a quick look at the following link.


Human Rights.


You will note that the clause "people have the right to do what they like" is not included anywhere.

You will on the other hand note the following:


Article 3
    Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

In other words, you can't do anything you like if it interferes with someone elses right to life, liberty and the security of person.

They come first.

So what do we have the right to do?

In the context of this thread, here is the relevant material.


1. "During World War II, the US government publicly adopted the Four Freedoms: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, freedom from fear and freedom from want, as its basic war aims. The United Nations Charter "reaffirmed faith in fundamental human rights, and dignity and worth of the human person" and committed all member states to promote "universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion".[2]"


2. "Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,"

3. "Article 19
    Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."

4. Article 2
    Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.


You may be surprised to discover that these proclamations are in fact incompatible with Nazi policy in WWII.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:07 AM

John, it's a debate. I, too, disagree with the demonstrators; the question is whether such demonstrations should be allowed to go ahead, whether they constitute "evil", and whether "free speech" is only open to people who hold certain acceptable views. I find the "if you don't how we do things here, leave" approach to be particularly reactionary and intolerant, not to mention that it shows a basic misunderstanding of British democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:08 AM

"Pity that the tolerance shown towards these would be demonstrators, isn't extended towards those who disagree with them."


Who are "those who disagree with them"?

And who is suggesting that they be banned from expressing their views?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Billy Suggers
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:11 AM

Eratum

"Followers of Islam are told to force conversion ...." ... OOOPS ! that ain't so.

For "Followers" read
Some followers of DIPs* who think they have the right to tell others what God thinks

And that goes for extremists in most religions.

*deeply insensitive prat (above)

Goodwill and peace to all, DIPs included, and long may the 'Cat be a platform for fierce debate, extremist liberals and the outright angry.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:15 AM

Indeed.

Britain is a democracy.

Britains constitution is based on the Magna Carta and has more recently incorporated a bill of rights into its statute book.

We value Freedom of speech.

That's how we British do things.

So Lizzie, as you so eloquently said:

"If you don't like this country and it's laws, way of life, and religious beliefs, then find a country you do like and bugger off over there. It's that easy..."

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:43 AM

"Visit any forum expressing the views of British inter city folk for the real answers."

GUEST

I live in inner city London.

I am fully aware of my own views.



... but hang on ... you said "inter city" folk ...

... you must mean commuters on trains ...


Even then I travel by train from London to the north regularly so I represent that crowd too...

though I'm not clear on how democracy on the railways is relevant to this thread ...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:49 AM

"Visit any forum"

haha

you mean visit the BNP website.

hee hee.


Hey - you must be the same guy that wrote to another catter saying that I was a known convicted criminal.


Only you don't know my name ..... or have any idea what I look like ...


so perhaps I'm not very well known at all.


ha ha


'Debating' with the BNP is like playing tag with a beached whale.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:51 AM

Well, Guest might mean the views of the Inter-City Firm...those were fairly obvious, and are currently informing groups like Casuals United.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 08:06 AM

If you think the views of the Inter City Firm were obvious how do explain Cass Pennant?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 08:18 AM

Just to correct my previous post, the Islamic smoothie I saw on Channel 4 News (UK) was quite definitely NOT the Mr Choudary pictured swigging booze on the front of today's Daily Mirror.

On the question of democracy, we should keep in mind that the US has given up trying to impose democracy on Afghanistan. (And whose wisdom determines that democracy is the best form of governance for such a country anyway?)

All that the west can do now is huff and puff that it will not give financial aid to Afghani departments that are led by corrupt ministers. In the end of course, even the corruption will be ignored, just as it is elsewhere around the world, if only because failed states are bad news. By which time the good people of Wootton Wotsit will have long since tired of turning themselves into a tourist attraction of rubberneckers amd the Islamic extremists who don't like the spectacle will have turned elsewhere for something to rail against.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 08:28 AM

One swallow doesn't make a spring; the presence of one or two black men in the ranks doesn't negate the obvious racism of football hooliganism.

Casuals United also claim to be multi-cultural. That doesn't make them any less racist.