BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:40 PM

CarolC, it might be useful if you looked online for some of statements and arguments emanating from Choudary on other issues and at other times. To anyone who has looked at or listened to debates in the UK media in the past couple of years, he is well-known as a seasoned 'agent provocateur' who studiously seeks to occupy positions that are guaranteed to enrage the majority of Brits.

I do not dispute that such rage often and quickly manifests itself in rhetoric that comes close to or actively adheres to reactionary & xenophobic thinking. This is what Choudary sets out to achieve. Have a look at some of his other interventions and tell me what you think.

There are many ways of expressing opposition to UK/US policy without voicing Choudary's standpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:41 PM

Is it just me that can see the irony in an Irishman, whose people were demonised and vilified within England (particularly in certain cities after particular episodes of bombing) because of the actions of a few extremist terrorists, and who only a few decades ago were greeted in English pubs and boarding houses with signs reading "no Irish, no blacks, no dogs", can hearken back to the "British way of life" he misses and was proud of?

Hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:51 PM

I'll have a look, Smedley. Are there any in particular that you think I should see?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 07:00 PM

Ok, I've had a look. I vehemently disagree with his agenda, but I find the kind of attitude displayed by a lot of people in this thread to be no better than what I've read coming from him. Pot and kettle.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Paddy
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 07:45 PM

CarolC. Britain is a small island. I respect the law and the traditions of this great nation. I do not like people coming into it and showing disrespect that is all any of us are saying.

What will be next, a protest at the Cenotaph on Armistice day ?

I think Merle Haggard summed it up well (Also proformed by "The Sisters of Murphy".

I hear people talking bad about the way they have to live here in this country.
                                                                  
Harpin' on the wars we fight gripin' 'bout the way things ought to be.
                                                                  
I don't mind them switchin' sides and standin' up for things they beleive in,
                           
When they're runnin' down our country man,
                                       
They're walkin' on The Fightin' side Of Me.            
                                             
Runnin' down a way of life our fightin' men have fought and died to keep,
      
If you don't love it, leave it,
                           
Let this song that I'm singin' be a warnin',
            
When you're runnin' down our country
You're walkin' on The Fightin' Side Of Me.


They love our milk and honey but they preach about some other way of livin'.


We love our country CarolC, nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 08:11 PM

Well then get to work, Paddy. Convince your government to leave other peoples' countries alone. Because that's the only way to keep other people from fleeing to your country.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 08:15 PM

And Merle has conveniently forgotten what was done to those who were living here in what is now the US before his European ancestors arrived. He's not really in a position to be singing songs about respecting the cultures of those who were here before.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 08:22 PM

I do not like people coming into it and showing disrespect that is all any of us are saying.

Where did he come from?

Actually he was born in Welling, London. He is a publicity seeker. Muslims condemn him too.

And Ruth is right. Ask Iany Irish people you know who came over in the 40's and 50's about the prejudice the Irish (who historically are by far the largest immigrants into the UK) received when they came over to build our roads and country after World War Two. Both because of their nationality and their religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 06:19 AM

You just can't give anyone a bit of stick these days without being PC.

Our guest is evidently quite a comedian.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 06:42 AM

CarolC has compared some of the views expressed on this thread (and there have been others in the past) to those of far-right groups like the BNP. I am always amused to see the knee-jerk, "I'm not racist, but..." arguments borne of red-top politics and white-eyed paranoia that we see on Mudcat. My favourite might be "If you don't like the way we do things here, leave."

A friend posted me Facebook group today which has links to the English Defense League. Yes, they are racist. Yes, their politics are of the far right. Yes, they reflect a lot of what gets said here at Mudcat.

You who espouse this nonsense, have a look at this group. See whether the politics they espouse differ so very much from your own.

This is England? This is racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 07:36 AM

But the 'British' culture you want, dear BNP troll, is not one most people in here would endorse.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 07:46 AM

And I'm Norma Waterson's washing-up bowl

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 08:31 AM

I see that GUEST has done a bit of research on me in the mudcat annals in a desperate attempt to find some clue as to who I am.

Dublin, Tralee, the Midlands, London and the Band "The sisters of Murphy" ... all mentioned in my posting history, but none of them giving you any clue about who I am.

At least try to find out what songs the sisters of murphy used to sing.

A good place to start would be to ask me ... I sang them.

And by the way, you really need to learn the Lingo a bit better if you are going to pretend to be able to speak it.

No Irish man has ever "craiced" or claimed to have "craiced"

Your posturing as an Irishman is so utterly unconvincing as to be completely laughable.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Smedley
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 12:49 PM

Just in case anyone thinks my last couple of posts above make even less sense than I usually do, they were in response to a 'Guest' poster whose comments have been removed.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 02:17 PM

"CarolC has compared some of the views expressed on this thread (and there have been others in the past) to those of far-right groups like the BNP. I am always amused to see the knee-jerk, "I'm not racist, but..." arguments borne of red-top politics and white-eyed paranoia that we see on Mudcat. My favourite might be "If you don't like the way we do things here, leave." <<<<<

Sorry, but if I went to live in France, or Saudi, I'd not expect the local population to appreciate, or alter their way of life to suit my vision of how their country should be. I'd not demand that churches were built in Saudi, purely so I could worship there.

Years back, as I recall...Laings (the building firm) built the mosque in Regent's Park. Now, I may be wrong here, but....as I remember, the deal with King Faisal was that Laings would build the mosque over here and...the British would build a church over in Saudi...again, built by Laings.

One building was built.

Guess which one?

My friend's father worked for Laings in those days, in fact was one of the Chief Executives. He's no longer alive, so I can't double check the facts on it, but...having just googled, it seems that even to this day, there are no churches in Saudi Arabia, although apparently, they have been in contact with the Pope, with regards to building a church, but he has to recognise Mohammed first.

Don't get me wrong....I happen to love mosques, find them incredibly beautiful buildings, and often I'd drive past the Regent's Park one, on the way to The Wellington Hospital, to see our patients...There was always a huge gathering of people outside, often spilling out onto the road, stalls around to buy things...I'd sit and stare out the window, loving the beauty of that building...but the taxi drivers used to growl and mutter about how if they were selling things like that, crowds on the road in a busy place, the police would nab them good and proper...

If people come to my house, then I expect them to be pleasant and polite...and...mostly to come to my house because they like me, or love me.   I feel that way when I go to the houses of others.

The British, particularly the English, have surrendered way too much of ourselves....not only in walking away from our traditions deliberately, but also in giving in to politicial correctness and the fear of being called 'You f*cking racist!" if they dare to stand up and say that they feel like strangers in their own land at times, because their heritage is slipping away so damn fast...

I'm all for everyone keeping their traditions, the things they love about their own countries, and I'm sure I'd still make roast beef and yorkshire puddings wherever I chose to live, but I'd always respect the beliefs, laws and traditions of the country I'd chosen to live in..and if they had traditions that made my stomach churn, then I'd leave.


The English are getting angry...very angry, because for way too long they've been bullied and harrassed into feeling bad about themselves. They've had 'You Slave Trading Bastards!" imprinted on their brains for way too long, whilst having all that is good, decent and bloody wonderful about their country denied them....

Over and over we get The British Empire hurled at us, the Slave Trade...but what of the Good?

I don't feel guilty about being English. I LOVE being English, but I sure as hell am fed up with people who want to put my country down, or tell me that I have no right to my memories of England (are you listening, Joan) and that those memories are racist because they don't include The Notting Hill Carnival, but do include cricket being played upon the village green, whilst the church bells rang out in the background!

Those memories sit right beside darker ones of The Miners Strike and the hatred which has never left so many people, which divided this once proud and beautiful land..

I will never be bullied into apologisiing for my feelings about being English, no matter what lies are hurled at me, because I know that I am NOT racist...and that...at the end of the day, is all that matters, because I really couldn't give a flying Chicken Korma about what other people think of me.

I respect others, I simply expect others to respect me..and that goes for their countries and mine too.

I am shit fed up with Extremists though, particularly those who use Allah and the peaceful religion of Islam to abuse, to murder, to kill, to torture, to rape, to stone, to remove hands, to remove heads and..to remove hearts, because they are nowt but a bunch of lily livered bullies who have ruled their worlds for way too long, and no way are they going to start ruling mine.

So call me whatever you want to, but I am no bloody hypocrite and I will never join Folk Against Facism whilst it is run by a person who has gone out of her way to try to get others to hate me, who has spread malicious lies about me, even saying that she would buy anyone a drink who managed to pour a drink over me at Sidmouth.

That is the talk of bullies...and a racist speaks exactly that same language.

So fuck that for a game of soldiers...

And getting back to soldiers....I may not agree with this war, but I know how deep grief can be, and for this unfeeling, manipulative prat to use the grief of the town of Wooton Bassett and the far deeper grief of the relatives of all those soldiers who have died, often when they've been trying to HELP his people, makes me bloody angry! As do others, who, again in the name of Allah, seek to murder innocents and bring this world to a standstill in a way that has never been known before...and the longer we keep our eyes closed and our voices silent, the more shit we will be surrounded by, to the point where we will have no freedom at all.

Already we are watched, monitored and now to be scanned, almost to the point of nakedness at airports...because no-one has had the guts to stand up to the Politically Correct Emperors who rule this world with their blinkered vision and unjoined up thinking which has led us to The Land of Exploding Underpants!   

Gawd, it's almost become like a Monty Python Movie!

And the one thing that used to be uppermost in my mind, when I sat in those taxis going past the Regent's Park Mosque, was how lucky I was to live in a land where all religions are allowed to be worshipped openly without fear of recrimination, imprisonment or violence.

I still think that...and I also think that the Saudis, and Islam itself, has a great deal to learn from such an incredibly tolerant and welcoming country such as my own one.

But I also feel, very much, as I stated above, that if you don't like my country, then don't cause trouble in it, or put it down...just quietly bugger off out of it, to a land where you will feel happy.

Anyways up, I'm just off to eat a Flying Chicken Korma now...whilst some of you fall over sideways in rage, or spend hours searching the internet for 'facts' to lambast with me with...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 02:32 PM

But, Lizzy, you only seem to care about those kinds of atrocities when they are committed by Muslims. That is what makes you look like a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 03:11 PM

Carol
If anybody says anything out of place to your viewpoint, you think they are rascist.
Grow up and get a life FFS

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 03:20 PM

And what is this overwhelming emotional investment you have, Carol, it appears uniquely, in Islam — so that you feel impelled to leap to its defence if anyone so much as hints at any sort of criticism of the conduct of any of its members, or at any inconsistency in its world view, or any sort of misconduct or misgovernment in any of the countries where it predominates, or any attitude of any of its members inimical to the welfare of any of the adoptive countries in which they have opted to live? What exactly gives here? What is this peculiar relationship you have with this particular faith? And why?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 03:33 PM

My wife is foreign as far as the Uk is concerned. She has been self employed ever since she came to this country and works bloody hard, some 20 odd years ago. 90% of her earnings are from countries outside the UK. She pays to have the currency converted into Pds Stlg and spends it in England and where we live.
She abides by the law, accepts the rules of this country, pays her taxes and NI and doesn't and has never scrounged on this country.

Now, how many of the foreigners that come to this country export their skills and spend it in the uk and don't sponge on our society and don't try to enforce their beliefs on people born and bred in the UK.

Can you answer that Carol. I would be rather interested.

As I said before, this Protest should be stopped and these trouble makers should be kicked out the country. We don't need it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 03:50 PM

The "mosque" story it is simply not true. Probably you couldn't find the cathedral supposedly to be built in in Saudi Arabia because it was actually to be built in Cairo. Had you looked things up correctly you would have found it.

The land for the Islamic Cultural Centre was given in Regent's Park as a gift from King George V and a donation of over £100,000 from Churchill's War Cabinet also a gift, for Muslims who had spent World War Two defending the British Empire.

Simple research Lizzie. Of the kind that you really ought to do before posting unsubstantiated horlicks.

I cannot imagine that your story of the cathedral in Saudi Arabia was designed to improve race relations between Muslims and British people. But like many of these stories against Muslims it turns out to be unfounded garbage.

Sorry, but if I went to live in France, or Saudi, I'd not expect the local population to appreciate, or alter their way of life to suit my vision of how their country should be.

But if you go to Spain that's exactly what happens. There are lots of expatriate enclaves where the residents try and create Britain and complain about the way the Spanish do things. I have often heard them say they have left Britain because of the immigrants taking over. They say this with no sense of irony.

But read a Spanish newspaper and you will see how the concentrations in some places have put enormous strains on the Spanish health system because of lot of the expatriates who go there are older and retired (as I was). And let me say the Spanish health system from my limited experience is excellent.

You personally might not do it - but lots of your fellow Britons do.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 03:54 PM

As I said before, this Protest should be stopped

Everybody apart from a few publicity seeking nutters agrees. Most muslims agree, most british people agree, the people of Wooton Bassett agree. That is an open door you are kicking at.

and these trouble makers should be kicked out the country.

Kick him out? Where to? He comes from London!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:07 PM

Villan,

"Now, how many of the foreigners that come to this country export their skills and spend it in the uk and don't sponge on our society and don't try to enforce their beliefs on people born and bred in the UK."

Eh?

What are you talking about?

1.

If someone earns money, they may spend it where they will. It is their money to spend.

Otherwise Brits should not go abroad as tourists.

And Brits who work abroad should not send money back to their families to avoid a case of double standards.

Perhaps you should first check out how many 'indigenous' businessmen are registered as non domiciled, and how many have bank accounts in other countries, yet expect full political rights and status in the UK because of their 'ethnicity', including the right to sit in parliament.

2.

Which foreigners sponge off our society?

This is unsupported anywhere.

3.

Which foreigners "enforce" their beliefs on people born and bred in the UK?

This is also unsupported anywhere.


I don't anticipate any evidence though, just a load of rhetoric about who you think I am.





Carol,

I am so tempted to try and answer MtheGM's question for you, but I don't and would not pretend to speak for you.

I would however love to read a patient and open overview from you on your overall political standpoint, referring in particular to your disillusionment with the US governments domestic and foreign policy and the connection by which it relates to your desire to counter the many lies that are told about Moslems.

I am aware that your position has changed radically over the years as you have become better informed and better able to research issues.

You will of course have critics, but there will also be many who will find your posts interesting and possibly inspiring.

Its a difficult order, but I would certainly be interested in reading such a post.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:12 PM

Carol
If anybody says anything out of place to your viewpoint, you think they are rascist.

No, only the ones who scapegoat specific groups of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:23 PM

Carol
Nobody is scapegoating anybody.
I am against this protest full stop.
End of story.

Anyway I will go back to my way of life and leave you to it Carol. You obviously have plenty of time to further this cause. Got better things to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:34 PM

And what is this overwhelming emotional investment you have, Carol, it appears uniquely, in Islam — so that you feel impelled to leap to its defence if anyone so much as hints at any sort of criticism of the conduct of any of its members, or at any inconsistency in its world view, or any sort of misconduct or misgovernment in any of the countries where it predominates, or any attitude of any of its members inimical to the welfare of any of the adoptive countries in which they have opted to live? What exactly gives here? What is this peculiar relationship you have with this particular faith? And why?

I see you've only been around for about six months, so you are unfamiliar with most of my almost ten year posting history. Considering that fact, I don't think you are really in a position to tell me what I have or don't have an emotional investment in doing or not doing.

I am concerned with scapegoating, MtheGM. I defend all groups and individuals who are being scapegoated. If you see me defending Muslims more than any other group right now, it is because Muslims are being scapegoated more than any other group right now. Think about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:35 PM

Nobody is scapegoating anybody.

Villan, I disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:37 PM

Now, how many of the foreigners that come to this country export their skills and spend it in the uk and don't sponge on our society and don't try to enforce their beliefs on people born and bred in the UK.

Can you answer that Carol. I would be rather interested.

What is the point of your question, Villan?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:48 PM

Follkiedave, you make a telling and pertinent point about the behaviour of Brit ex-pats in Spain. When in countries such as Croatia and Greece I recoil from attempts to draw me into ex-pat cliques in which people who are too lazy to learn the language cling together to whine about the food, the drink and even about local radio stations having the temerity to play the music of the region. All of which is tame stuff compared with the mayhem inflicted on overseas communities by Brit lager louts. And that in turn is dwarfed by the excesses of the British Empire in Africa and the subcontinent. (All of which was done to help those countries of course, with no regard for self interest.)

Lizzie, The Villan and others of the braindead who yearn for a rose-tinted past that never existed, might try reading the work of a Princeton professor, Bernard Lewis, of whom the (London) Sunday Times said: "No-one writes about Muslim history with greater authority or intelligence or literary charm." A good starting point would be What Went Wrong? Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response.

I realise I'm wasting my breath of course. The kind of ignorance we see in this thread can be achieved only by keeping minds securely closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:56 PM

I would however love to read a patient and open overview from you on your overall political standpoint, referring in particular to your disillusionment with the US governments domestic and foreign policy and the connection by which it relates to your desire to counter the many lies that are told about Moslems.

Thanks, Lox.

I'm against imperialism, colonialism, resource wars, wars of conquest, economic slavery, and all other abuses by governments and corporations against individuals and groups.

The governments of the US and UK are two of the worst offenders in this regard. At this point in time, it is politically expedient for both of our governments to promote hatred of Muslims so that the people of our countries will support the imperialistic agenda they have in the Middle East, which serves purposes having to do with money, power, and empire, but has nothing whatever to do with freedom or human rights.

When we don't stand up to this practice, we don't only hurt the people of that region. We also hurt ourselves, both in the form of terrorist attacks that we endure, as well as the money we pay in the form of taxes that goes to pay for this agenda; money that isn't going to pay for the things we need in our own countries, like schools, infrastructure, and health care. And that's not counting the spiritual and emotional costs, which are very high. In my country, we have a generation of young men returning from numerous deployments a shadow of their former selves, unable to cope with what our government has required them to do to other human beings.

When we don't stand up to this practice, we also create a reality in which there is no rule of law. The rule of law set down in the Geneva Conventions, the UN Charter, and other treaties and agreements becomes irrelevant and nobody is protected any longer by these agreements, not even we ourselves.

What I find the most striking in threads like this one, though, is how ironic it is that people in the UK criticize people in the US for being insular.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:03 PM

Some of my Anglo-Argentine friends think CC is totally bonkers!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:04 PM

What, specifically, do your Anglo-Argentine friends disagree with, Bonzo?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:17 PM

"The "mosque" story it is simply not true. Probably you couldn't find the cathedral supposedly to be built in in Saudi Arabia because it was actually to be built in Cairo. Had you looked things up correctly you would have found it."

I never mentioned a cathedral....I said a church in Saudi.
Thanks.


>>>>History

1900 - 1930 Several efforts were made to build a mosque in Central London, including one, initiated by Lord Headley
Rowland Allanson-Winn, 5th Baron Headley
Rowland George Allanson Allanson-Winn, 5th Baron Headley , also known as Shaikh Rahmatullah al-Farooq, was an Irish peer and a prominent convert to Islam, who was also one of the leading members of the Woking Muslim Mission alongside Khwaja Kamal-ud-Din...
, an English convert to Islam. This project was funded by the Nizam of Hyderabad.

1939 - 1940
Lord Lloyd of Dolobran, (1879-1941), Secretary Of State For The Colonies, & former President of the British Council, works with a Mosque Committee, comprising various prominent Muslims and Ambassadors in London. Lord Lloyd sends a memo to the Prime Minister, in which he points out, inter-alia "only London contains more Moslems than any other European capital but in our empire which actually contains more Moslems than Christians it was anomalous and inappropriate that there should be no central place of worship for Mussulmans".

1940
The British Government is persuaded to present a site for a mosque in London for the Muslim community of Great Britain. On 24 October the Churchill War Cabinet authorizes allocation of £100,000 for acquisition of a mosque site in London. The intent was to enable Muslims in Britain to build a mosque and an Islamic Cultural Centre, so they could conduct affairs pertaining to their faith. The gift was also intended as a tribute to the thousands of Indian Muslim soldiers who died defending the British Empire.
1944
A Mosque Committee comprising various prominent Muslim diplomats and Muslim residents in the United Kingdom accepted the gift and The Islamic Cultural Centre which includes the London Central Mosque, was established and officially opened in November by His Majesty King George VI.

1947
The Mosque Committee registered the London Central Mosque Trust Limited as a Trust Corporation in September. At the time, seven representatives from six Muslim countries acted as Trustees.

1954 - 1967
Several designs were considered for the mosque. There were long protracted planning application to various authorities but the necessary planning approval was not granted.

1969
An Open International Competition was held for the design of the building. Over one hundred designs were submitted, from both Muslim and non-Muslim applicants. The design finally selected was by the English architect Frederick Gibberd
Frederick Gibberd
Sir Frederick Ernest Gibberd was an English architect and landscape designer.Gibberd was born in Coventry, the eldest of the five children of a local tailor, and was educated at the city's King Henry VIII School...
. His design of The Main Mosque Building Complex can be divided into two elements: A main building consisting of the two prayers halls and three-story wings including an entrance hall, library, reading room, administration offices and the minaret;

£2 Million of funding was donated for the construction of the ICC by His Majesty King Faisal Bin Abdul Aziz Al-Saud
Fahd of Saudi Arabia
King Fahad bin Abdul Aziz Al Saud, Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques, was the King of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Head of the House of Saud as well as Prime Minister...
. Further donation was provided by Sheikh Zayed bin Sultan Al Nahyan ruler of Abu Dhabi
Abu Dhabi
Abu Dhabi is the capital of, and the second largest city in the United Arab Emirates. Abu Dhabi lies on a T-shaped island jutting into the Persian Gulf from the central western coast...
and President of the United Arab Emirates
United Arab Emirates
The United Arab Emirates is a federation of seven emirates situated in the southeast of the Arabian Peninsula in Southwest Asia on the Persian Gulf, bordering Oman and Saudi Arabia. The UAE consists of seven states, termed emirates, which are Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Sharjah, Ajman, Umm al-Quwain, Ras...
.

1974
Construction work began early this year with the Main Mosque Building Complex, comprising Men's and ladies Main Prayer Halls, Library, Administrative Block and Residential Quarters.

1977
Work is completed in July with the total cost of £6.5 million. The first Director of the Islamic Centre was Raja of Mahmudabad. A special fund paid for a new Educational & Administrative wing which was completed in 1994. This was donated by Saudi King Fahd bin Abdul Aziz
Fahd of Saudi Arabia
King Fahad bin Abdul Aziz Al Saud, Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques, was the King of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Head of the House of Saud as well as Prime Minister...<<<<<<




Whatever the history of it is, I distinctly remember Uncle Kelvin, who then worked for Laings, telling us the deal was that Laings would also be building a church in Saudi Arabia as well as the mosque in London, a sort of 'exchange'.   As I said earlier, Dave, Uncle Kelvin (not my real Uncle, but so close he was 'family') died a few years back...he had that terrible disease that Dudley Moore had, poor soul) Anyway, I remember sitting in the kitchen and hearing him tell us, but I can't verify the absolute facts, because he's not here to ask any longer, sadly, and I was still a teenager, so it was a verrrrrrrry long time ago, but I remember he was very excited about it. I think it's rather lovely that the Regent's Park Mosque was built by a firm whose owner had strong Christian beliefs.


And Carol, I'm afraid, whether you like it or not, it's the Extremists who are er..Being Extreme in the name of Allah who are causing the world hellish problems right now. I actually don't regard them as 'true Muslims' because Islam is about peace...but the more that the entire Muslim Religion speaks out, SHOUTS out about these murderous, controlling thugs, the better it will be.

I dislike obsessive fundamentalists, whatever their cause or faith.

Oh, and as you like to defend the scapegoats in our society, well.....seems to me that Christians are having a pretty shitty time at present, being made to feel they're odd and wicked, and many a nasty thing has been written about them on Mudcat, yet...you keep quiet.

Why is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:23 PM

And Carol, I'm afraid, whether you like it or not, it's the Extremists who are er..Being Extreme in the name of Allah who are causing the world hellish problems right now.

This is not true. We created the extremists, Lizzie. Your government and mine. And with every imperialist act we conduct in their countries, we create even more of them. They would not exist if it weren't for our governments' meddling in their countries. End the imperialism, and the Muslim extremism will melt away into nothing.


Oh, and as you like to defend the scapegoats in our society, well.....seems to me that Christians are having a pretty shitty time at present, being made to feel they're odd and wicked, and many a nasty thing has been written about them on Mudcat, yet...you keep quiet.

I guess you haven't read my posting history, either. I have defended Christians. I've even defended someone who thinks that the English culture is being obliterated, and isn't very happy about it, when that person was being scapegoated.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:36 PM

Hell, I've even defended you, Lizzie, when you were being scapegoated (which you are fairly often).

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:47 PM

Mudcat is always amazing. This story and thread has been up now in its fourth day, and today is the first day I've heard or read about it in US media, and I consider myself pretty well aware of important things.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:58 PM

Lizzie, that wa an incredibly long-winded way of saying "Sorry Folkiedave, I got it wrong. (Apart from the detail about whether it was a church or a cathedral.)"

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 06:10 PM

Readers will have noted that Years back, as I recall...Laings (the building firm) built the mosque in Regent's Park. Now, I may be wrong here, but....as I remember,

here:Date: 07 Jan 10 - 02:17 PM

has become three hours approx. and few posts later I distinctly remember Uncle Kelvin, who then worked for Laings, telling us the deal was that Laings would also be building a church in Saudi Arabia as well as the mosque in London, a sort of 'exchange'.

here: Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:17 PM

Lizzie - the church and land deal - whatever you or anyone else says was not in Saudia Arabia, but in Cairo.

I am fed up of doing simple basic research for you when you get things wrong. There is more to the world than Wikipedia.

Here is what you said "Years back, as I recall...Laings (the building firm) built the mosque in Regent's Park. Now, I may be wrong here, but....as I remember, the deal with King Faisal was that Laings would build the mosque over here and...the British would build a church over in Saudi...again, built by Laings.

One building was built.

Guess which one?"

There was no deal with King Faisal. It was complete and utter horlicks and trying to dodge out of it will not do. An apology to the people reading this thread for failure to do basic research would be nice. Not that I expect you to admit you are wrong.

Regular readers will no doubt expect as I do, wails of heartache from Lizzie how I follow her around contradicting the horlicks she posts.

This is a fine example.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 06:11 PM

This story and thread has been up now in its fourth day, and today is the first day I've heard or read about it in US media, and I consider myself pretty well aware of important things.

Then the US media have been suckered into it as well. It just took them longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 07:05 PM

Er....but I was there, talking to a man who worked for Laings, who had done all his life...and who was telling us about it. I just don't recall the absolute minutia of what was said, other than what I said earlier..

Still, I guess you know best, as always, eh, Dave?   Gawd, were you there? In Pinner? All those decades ago? I bet you were hiding in the broom cupboard, stethoscope to door, pen in hand, then you zoomed down to Northwood Hills Library to check everything I said.

King Faisal donated all the money from his piggy bank towards it.

It's a nice building.

Laings built Coventry Cathedral too...in Cairo, so I heard...Amazing!


Yes, Carol, that's true, you did defend me in the past, so thank you for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 07:12 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish - PM
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 07:05 PM

When caught out talking horlicks, Lizzie:

A) Apologises for talking horlicks.

B) Talks more horlicks.

Lizzie you have promised time after time to leave this forum. One day I suspect you may do so. Why not take the opportunity now?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 07:17 PM

Lizzie - here is a sincere tip to help you in the future.

If you don't remember what someone said think carefully about posting what you think you might have remembered. And see if it makes sense. Do some simple internet research. Check things.

And then post.

On second thoughts perhaps not. You do have a track record of contradicting yourself. I seem to remember the record was within an hour. But I might be wrong. I could have been and hour and a half.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 01:31 AM

CarolC - I thank you for your reasoned and dignified response to my previous query. I appreciate that it is your habit to stand up for whomever you perceive as the underdog under attack whatever the situation, be they Muslims or Lizzie {for whom I too have stood up in my time - I know she can sometimes sound hysterical but I think she often takes an eminently sensible and defensible view - and as I have for you also, against some unworthy suggestions above by one Bonzo}.

I would, however, in this present instance, beg you at least to consider the following, which we have already differed about on another thread:—

You insist that all the violent Islamist intransigence of which we have seen examples over the last decade — 9/11, 7/7, 21/7, Madrid ... — are solely the result of US/UK officious imperialistic interference into the affairs of Islamic states, and that absolutely none of them has been motivated by any supposed Koranic injunctions to Jihad or Ummah; so that, if the interference by the West into Muslim affairs ceased, so immediately would the violence. I have said before: I think you misunderstand and underestimate Al-Qaeda's and Bin-Laden's intent on global Islamisation, and overestimate the truth of their ostensible assertions as to their motivations. Consider that the numbers needed to wreak havoc need only be very small (in the instance of this present thread, count them - ONE: and how very few were needed to destroy the WTC entirely}; and at least admit that there just might be a small but dangerous movement to establish the worldwide Ummah independent of the determination to remove imperialist Western infuences — and then, in the light of such mere adventitious potentialities, at least consider modifying your present resolute "defensive·of·all·of·Islam·whilst·it·remains·under·attack" stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 02:44 AM

Well, for one thing, MtheGM, I have not ever defended extremist Muslims, or Muslim terrorists.

I disagree with even the idea that it would be possible for extremist Muslims to be able to spread global Islamisization through acts of terror. Although I have asked, you have yet to explain to me how this could possibly be done. How would it work, MtheGM?

Wreaking havoc is one thing. Imposing a political or religious order is something else entirely. As I said on the other thread, the leaders of al Qaeda themselves have stated many times that the purpose of their acts of terrorism is to scare the people of imperialist countries into pressuring their governments into withdrawing from Muslim countries. bin Laden himself has said this many times, for instance:


"A reaction might take place as a result of the US government's hitting Muslim civilians and executing more than 600,000 Muslim children in Iraq by preventing food and medicine from reaching them. So, the US is responsible for any reaction, because it extended its war against troops to civilians." -- 1997

"If the American government is serious about avoiding explosions inside the U.S., then let it stop provoking the feelings of 1,250 million Muslims." -- 1997

"Acquiring weapons for the defense of Muslims is a religious duty. If I have indeed acquired these weapons, then I thank God for enabling me to do so. And if I seek to acquire these weapons, I am carrying out a duty. It would be a sin for Muslims not to try to possess the weapons that would prevent the infidels from inflicting harm on Muslims." -- 1998

"We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal, whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation of the Prophet's Night Travel Land [Palestine]." -- 1997

"We, God willing, will continue to fight you and will continue martyrdom operations inside and outside the United States until you abandon your oppression and foolish acts." -- 2003

"Your security is not in the hands of [Democratic presidential candidate John] Kerry or Bush or al Qaeda. Your security is in your own hands and each state which does not harm our security will remain safe." -- 2004


Let me repeat that last one:

"each state which does not harm our security will remain safe"

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 03:35 AM

"spread global Islamisization through acts of terror. Although I have asked, you have yet to explain to me how this could possibly be done. How would it work, MtheGM?"

I expect that their first goal is to cause a breakdown of society in target countries.
Many people here have stopped going to work just because of snow and ice.
A sustained series of attacks on our trains and underground would have a similar effect.
Intercommunity violence could easily get out of control.
Contaminating a few city centres would devastate commerce.
They must be trying to get a nuclear device. Maybe just a big crude job in an iso container (thousands of them enter unsearched every day). Just announcing they have such a thing would cause panic in cities.
Just a paranoid nightmare fantasy perhaps, but you did ask how it could be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 03:41 AM

Yes but, even if we grant that they could break down the order in our societies (which I would say is far from being a sure bet), how would they then impose their religion on us? They would have to be able to then create and then impose their own order. How would they do this?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 03:52 AM

==I disagree with even the idea that it would be possible for extremist Muslims to be able to spread global Islamisization through acts of terror. Although I have asked, you have yet to explain to me how this could possibly be done. How would it work, MtheGM?===

I didn't venture any opinion as to whether such efforts would succeed, or 'work', Carol. My point is that there are those among the Islamist movement who will continue to hope it will work. I simply make the point, which it seems to me you are wilfully ignoring and discounting, that if there be, as I and many others believe, even a quite small number of committed 'Ummah-ists', if I might be permitted the term, among the global Islamist community, they could cause a great deal of trouble and grief and mayhem and destruction to a whole lot of people. It might not be irrelevant here to remind you of the death of one of Rushdie's overseas publishers, his own being driven into hiding, the ditto of the Danish cartoonist on whose life another attempt was made just the other day... There is a small but prominent and vociferous element in Islamism whose motivations are entirely aggressive and incontinent, and inimical to the interests of the rest of the world, to whose existence you seem to be wilfully blinding yourself. Because it doesn't fit in with your agenda that Muslims who just want to be left alone and who will stop their truculence as soon as they are, are the present victims in need of your support contra mundi, you choose to remain blind to the fact that there are Islamists whose motivations are less pure and more destructive to the way of life of those whom they persist in regarding as the Infidel standing in the way of the Prophet's enlightenment, whose enjoyment by all of us is their ultimate aim. I say again, if you persist in this head-in-sand attitude of yours, I predict that some rude shocks await you.

If you choose to respond to this I shall, in courtesy, read what you say; but shall probably not rejoin again as this is becoming repetitious: I shall not, however, alter my opinion as to the obstinacy of your attitudes as rubricated above. So you may have the last word if you wish — & much good may it do you.

With regards - Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 04:15 AM

Other than to point out that Anjem Choudary is the real life equivalent of troll I have not been tempted to enter this discussion but, against my better judgement, I would like to add something.

Surely this is not, or should not, be about Moslems, Christians, Imperialism or any such. Is it not about a specific protest and whether it is right or not? Whatver the cause? My own two penn'orth is that the idiot suggesting it should be allowed to go ahead and a) See if he can get 500 coffins and people to carry them; b) see if the people of Wooten Bassett then support him and c) Ensure a press and media boycott of the event. It will, hopefuly, cost him or his organisation a lot of money for no gain.

I don't think that many people here (there are exceptions) are being racist or Islamaphobic. They just view that suggested protest as, at best, tasteless and, at worst, hurtful to those who have lost people in the war. I think it is not disimmilar to the two young men who have been arrested and tried recently for public order offences for urinating on war memorials. If Mr Choudary's protest does not break any laws, fair enough. If it does, treat him or his supporters no differently to anyone else.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Den
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 04:54 AM

Anjem Choudary lives on 28,000 pounds state benefit. He is one of thousands of Islamic scroungers currently living in "Soft touch" Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 05:14 AM

For what it's worth, I think the people who want to organise this demonstration have a point of view and they have a right to express it. I hope that having done so they will reflect on the fact that they live in a country where they enjoy that right.

If I lived in Wooton Bassett I would want anyone from outside the town to stay away (especially the BNP) and I would be tempted to silently line the streets in exactly the way they do when the troops are brought home - except perhaps with their backs turned.

This will pass.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 06:21 AM

Anjem Choudary lives on 28,000 pounds state benefit. He is one of thousands of Islamic scroungers currently living in "Soft touch" Britain.

Actually he lives on £25,740 benefits of which £15,600 is housing benefits. All of which as a British citizen he is entitled to. On what grounds are you suggesting he should not be entitled to it?

And anyone who has ever tried to get benefits knows they are not as easy to obtain as the words "soft touch" imply.