BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:22 AM

Sorry, got my books muddled there....the young princess is in 'The Prince & I'....

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:26 AM

No one can say that all Iranian women are treated well. But no one can say that all non-Muslim women in Britain are treated well by their non-Muslim British husbands, either.

But Iranian women don't have the mindset that Peter K describes as a general rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:33 AM

This is the kind of positive nationalism (with a stronger more-democratic United Nations) the world needs...

Poem 216 of 230: FOR PEACE

Reading of warred Afghanistan
    And its people's book, the Koran,
This bombarded generation
    Should, for peace, rebuild a nation
Involving one state/one culture -
    Living by the one native-law.
And, for peace in the Holy Lands,
    Three states bordered, for three faiths' hands.

From http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse (e-book)
Or http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com (e-scroll)
(C) David Franks 2003

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:33 AM

Stoning of Iranian Women - Youtube


Amnsety International has caused for this to be stopped...

So, do you think the Iranians will listen, Carol?


We do not stone our women here, we do not treat them in such an appalling ways.

We, here in the West, are seen as equal to men. We have human rights, we are seen as human, in the first place.

I'm sure there are some very happily married, and treasured, Iranian women. Sadly, there are many who are not and they do not have a choice of freedom. They have only a living death sentence of abuse, from their husbands and from their community.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:36 AM

Lizzie ...


1. Your film isn't about Iran.

Looks like Somewhere in east Africa.

Interestignly It does clearly state that Stoning is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran as a form of punishment.

So stoning is cultural not religious anyway.

Not the best evidence.


2. your book ... the Prince and I ... isn't about Iran.

It's set in Saudi Arabia.

Again, not the best evidence.


Looks like I'll just have to make do with my testimony from Shi'ite women.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Paddy 'Ginger' Galvin
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:39 AM

There is a lot of truth in what you say Keith. I am just back from visiting family in Dublin and Tralee. When I was there the Guards dealt with the second honour killing of muslim women within three months.
When I was living around Manchester it wasn't uncommon.

G.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:42 AM

The second video is much better thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:50 AM

It's not only women who have been stoned to death in Iran for adultery. Men have been too. The government of Iran placed a moratorium on the practice in 2002, and again in 2008 after a man was stoned to death in a remote province.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/2507499/Iran-suspends-execution-by-stoning.html

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:55 AM

Lizzie, all of the statistics I have seen show that the percentages of women who experience domestic abuse are the same for all of the three major monotheistic religions. None of them is any better or worse than the others.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:56 AM

Hello "Paddy"

Can you provide any examples of honour killings by Moslems in Ireland in the last ... say ... 10,000 years?

That should be a wide enough span for you to find something.

Perhaps a link or a citation?


Ideally not one from the BNP website (its just that we've had a lot of those lately)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Roger Knowles
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:00 AM

Not all Muslims are terrorists , however, all terrorists seem to be Muslims.
Mr. Choudry should leave from the UK. We aren't a Muslim country.
He must obviously go where he feels welcome, and at ease, and his beliefs are those of the country in which he settles.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:02 AM

Paddy also only focuses on Muslim honor killings and either is not concerned about or is unaware of those that are committed by other groups. Seems to me if honor killings are bad, people would be just as concerned about those that are committed by other groups besides Muslims, but apparently, they are not. Apparently it's only Muslim honor killings people care about.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:04 AM

Not all Muslims are terrorists , however, all terrorists seem to be Muslims.

This is a popular racist lie. Anyone with half a brain can find out for themself that there is absolutely no truth whatever to this piece of racist hate mongering.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:15 AM

"Not all Muslims are terrorists , however, all terrorists seem to be Muslims."

This is a Roy Chubby Brown 'Joke/Observation'.


Paddy ... I mean Roger ... (woops) ... proves a point I made in a previous thread about Racist humour.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:21 AM

Oh, come on, Carol...it's incredibly rare for men to be stoned..

Lox, I didn't say the first video was about Iran, but it is about what happens withinand because of some of the beliefs of Islam.

And yes, I know 'The Prince & I' was set in Saudi, but many of the incidences in there also happen in other parts of the Middle East.

It's a brilliant book, although sadly a true story..written by a German Nanny who went to care for the grandson of the ruler of Saudi...Written around the time I was working in Harley Street, when nearly all of our patients were from the Middle East, so I identify very much with so much of what she wrote.

When her favourite Princess was stoned to death for running away with the man she loved, it shocked her to the core of her being and broke her heart and she left Saudi feeling she could not live amongst people who would behave in this barbaric way. She was desperately fond of her young charge and had come to be very much a part of the family within the Women's Palace...but when she discoverd that Prince Mohammed had ordered the death of his beloved Mishaal, that was it, she left there and then, writing her book later. At the time it came out it caused many waves of anger, because it told the truth and opened up the world of what was happening over there....

Young Mishaal was taken to the village square and stoned to death. Her lover (whom she had loved for years, despite her arranged and lovelss marriage) was beheaded.

Prince Mohammed was left with no alternative but to order her death, as he knew there would be outrage if she were excused the punishment that many other women had been sentenced to.

What shocked her most was that Princess Moudi, who was the mother of Prince Saud (whom she called Susu), the little baby she cared for, so accepted Mishaal's death, stating that Mishaal had brought disgrace upon the family and had known what the outcome would be. And Moudi had watched her die, despite being so desperately fond of her.

Would the man have been beheaded if he had not run away with a member of the Royal Family? Who knows.......

I can only begin to imagine the terror that anyone must feel about being stoned to death, let alone the agony of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:36 AM

AsCarol says, there is no evidence of domestic violence being greater among certain ethnic groups (even westerners Lox).
Re honour killings, 12 may be the tip of an iceberg.
Police estimate at least 12 are dying each year in the UK but others will be hidden – forced suicides and murders made to look like suicide are widely believed to take place undetected. Women aged 16-24 from Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi backgrounds are three times more likely to kill themselves than the national average for that age and it is impossible to tell what pressures some must have been under. And for every woman who dies, it seems certain that there are many, many more living with honour-based abuse and hidden away in shuttered communities.
The full Guardian article is here.http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/oct/25/honour-killings-victims-domestic-violence
It makes clear that it is not just a Muslim problem, but all the examples given are.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:42 AM

And getting back to the thread title....


Taken from yesterday's 'Telegraph':



>>>>>>By Christopher Hope, Whitehall Editor
Published: 7:00PM GMT 05 Jan 2010

Comments 116 | Comment on this article


Link to this video The news came as fears rose of a possible violence with right wing demonstrators insisting that they would "defend" the Wiltshire town if the march was given the green light by the police and local council.

Local people also said they would blockade the town to stop the demonstration going ahead.


Related Articles
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Police called to maintain order at Al Muhajiroun meeting Anjem Choudary, the leader of Islam4UK, has caused dismay with plans to parade through the Wiltshire town famous for honouring service personnel killed in Afghanistan, with 500 supporters carrying empty coffins.

On Monday Alan Johnson, the Home Secretary, said he would support any request to ban the march. Prime Minister Gordon also declared he was "completely disgusted" at the "abhorrent" protest.

But Sir Hugh Orde, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo), said he would be "surprised" if senior officers in Wiltshire seek to block the protest because any group has a right to march even if their views are "unpleasant and offensive".

He said: "Our view is we will have to deal with it, people have a right to march. People might not like it but that is the law.

"It can be the case that if you ban something it becomes more popular to turn up to. You then have a mass unlawful protest. It will be one that requires pretty clear thinking, but it is far too early really because all we have is the threat of a march."

So far more than 400,000 members have backed a campaign opposing the march on the social networking website Facebook in just a few days.

However a ban can only be enforced in law once the protesters have lodged formally their request for the protest.

Wiltshire Police assistant commissioner Mike Veale was meeting with local council leaders to discuss the march. A Wiltshire Police spokesman said no contact had yet been made from any group wishing to protest through Wootton Bassett.

Marches are banned very infrequently with just one order made last year in Luton. Prior to that the last march to be banned was also in Luton in June 2006.

Yesterday local people on the streets of the Wiltshire town reacted angrily at the prospect of the demonstration. They said it would taint the town's non-political image when they just want to pay their respects to the war dead.

Jane Read, 48, said: "I don't think it's right they should protest in Bassett. I'd barricade the street to stop them coming through if I needed to. All we want to do is honour our war heroes. They shouldn't be using the town for their own purposes."

Reg Hulme, 66, agreed. He said: "It would taint the town with bad blood. It's obscene and I don't think it should go ahead."

Another resident Alan Bennett, 65, said: "It's probably a publicity stunt." Sheila Pickett, 73, added: "I don't agree with it all. I don't see why they should come here."

The Union flag-draped coffins carrying Rifleman Aidan Howell and Sapper David Watson were driven through Wootton Bassett, in Wiltshire, for their repatriation.

Sapper Watson, 23, of 33 Engineer Regiment - a bomb disposal expert - and Rifleman Howell, 19, of 3rd Battalion the Rifles, were killed in Afghanistan in the last week of December.

Friends of Rifleman Howell, Steven Stratford and Pete Bell, criticised Islam4UK for suggesting Wootton Bassett as a venue for the march.

"If they want to protest they should do it in London against the Government, not here. Wootton Bassett is where the soldiers come back, all of them, as heroes," said Mr Stratford. Mr Bell said: "If they came to protest here there would be carnage."

The news came as supporters of the English Defence League said they would "defend wooton bassett from islamic extremists" [sic]. In a discussion on the Facebook website they said they would "not allow this to happen".

The group made a "genuine offer" to Mr Choudary offering to give him money to quit the UK and "relocate to a country (such as Saudi Arabia) that practices Sharia law. Britain isn't for you, you dont like it here, our western culture disgusts you." [sic]

There was also opposition from local Muslims in Wiltshire, with the Wiltshire Islamic Cultural Centre asking the police not to allow a planned march through Wootton Bassett to go ahead.

Mr Choudary said he would cancel the march if the Prime Minister accepted an offer to a televised debate with banned extremist Omar Bakri.

Mr Bakri, living in exile in the Lebanon, has branded British troops 'murderers' and said there was strong support for the march to go ahead.

Mr Choudary said: "If he agrees to that I will cancel the procession. Mr Brown can do it in TV studios in Britain to speak to Bakri in Beirut. If he really believes this is about the freedom of democracy he can have a debate about it."

Bakri, speaking from the Lebanon, said he would be happy to discuss the issues of Afghanistan and Iraq with Brown via a TV link up.

He admitted the Wootton Bassett march was a "publicity stunt" to drum up public debate about the illegality of the conflicts.

It also emerged that MPs from across the Commons have signed a motion urging action Mr Johnson and local authorities to prevent the march, which they said would be "a gross mark of disrespect to the soldiers that have died or been wounded".

Last night the council and local police said in a joint statement that no application to march had been received from Islam4UK.

A spokesman said: "It is the intention of Wiltshire Police to mount a proportionate response to any proposed march by any organisation.

"If the police reasonably believe that a procession may result in serious disorder, serious damage or serious disruption to the life of the community, the police may impose conditions with regard to the time, date and specific circumstances of the march."

However if these conditions were not considered yo be "sufficient to prevent serious public disorder, an application would be made, to Wiltshire Council, for a prohibition order. The consent of the Home Secretary is also required".
<<<<<<<<

Youtube Wootton Bassett interview

There is also a link to Gordon Brown talking about this on the Telegraph page, but I can't get the link to it to work properly...sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:43 AM

To keep to the point

I hope the protest is banned and that they kick that guy out of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:50 AM

Here we go, found the right link to it...

Gordon Brown criticizing these plans...

"I don't think there is any public support for Wootton Bassett to be abused in this way..."


Gordon Brown on Wootton Bassett - Youtube

For once, I agree with our Prime Minister...and having just listened to the prat on the other video I posted above, may I politely suggest that he, and all his followers, leave this country, as they obviously seem to hate us so much and go shack up with Bin Laden, for whom he has so much respect.

Thank you.

Over to you, Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:55 AM

There is a picture in the press today of Muslims at yesterday's repatration at Wooton Bassett.
They are a couple who live there, and they have joined their fellow residents in paying respect at several previous repatriations.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:01 AM

"incredibly rare for men to be stoned".... you should have seen me and Murdoch at our last home rehearsal...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:10 AM

terrorists come in all shapes and sizes,a little while ago the IRA and the UVF were called terrorists,as were the Tamil Tigers,neither of these three groups are muslims.
some people think that the American government are terrorists,they have certainly killed a lot of innocent peopler in pursuit of their aims.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:11 AM

"incredibly rare for men to be stoned".... you should have seen me and Murdoch at our last home rehearsal... <<<

LOL, Ron. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 07:03 AM

Thanks for that balanced post Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 08:50 AM

"There was also opposition from local Muslims in Wiltshire, with the Wiltshire Islamic Cultural Centre asking the police not to allow a planned march through Wootton Bassett to go ahead."

And that is what we ALL need to hear...so well done to the WICC.





"Mr Choudary said he would cancel the march if the Prime Minister accepted an offer to a televised debate with banned extremist Omar Bakri.

Mr Bakri, living in exile in the Lebanon, has branded British troops 'murderers' and said there was strong support for the march to go ahead.

Mr Choudary said: "If he agrees to that I will cancel the procession. Mr Brown can do it in TV studios in Britain to speak to Bakri in Beirut. If he really believes this is about the freedom of democracy he can have a debate about it."

I think the words 'emotional blackmail' come to mind there....which is the polite version of how his words make me feel...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 09:04 AM

Perhaps Paddy Garvey could provide links to those Muslim honour killings that are "not uncommon" around Manchester?

The women called me 'Habibi' Oh dear Lizzie, I had assumed from your Mudcat name that you were female. (Or perhaps you misheard and they were actually saying "Habibati"?)

CarolC, women have generally been more exposed to western values in Iran than in some other Islamic societies, but even so I would be cautious about generalising. As one of your posts make clear, you are aware that there is a significant gulf between metropolitan Tehran and the rural provinces. I will respond to your direct question by PM.)

Lizzie Cornish, if it's Iran you were talking about, stonings are extremely rare whether of men or women, largely for the reason provided by CarolC.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 09:19 AM

CarolC, do you not have some knitting to do or cakes to make perhaps? That would focus your mind on more useful things.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 10:18 AM

Here you go, Peter, a few links you may like to look at.....

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 10:46 AM

Thank you Lizzie. I see you have searched for "honour killings" rather than specifically muslim honour killings. I haven't gone through all those results you turned up on Google, but you need to keep in mind that the term "honour killing" is aometimes bandied around in the news media where it was never advanced as a motive by the police.

In the Arshad case for instance (one of the first in your Google link) was described by the BBC as a "so-called honour killing" - perhaps because of the catchpenny title they used for a documentary about the case. The honour-killing theory was, as far as I know, never presented in court but was subsequently speculated as a possible motive by police involved in the case. The prosecution presented jealousy as the most likely motive. None of which diminishes the monstrosity of that particular crime, needless to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 10:47 AM

Anjem Choudary is what we here would term a troll. Unfortunately the media, as we do here - myself included - has taken the bait and pandered to the sad little man's need for attention. Fortunately, as is always the case with the media, his glory will be very short lived.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 11:50 AM

The BBC and others refer to "so called honour killings" to distance themselves from the concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 11:58 AM

Yes, I believe the phrase 'so-called' is inserted by the media in order to emphasise that there is NO true honour involved in this kind of barbaric act.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 02:35 PM

Lizzie, it's also incredibly rare for women to be stoned in Iran.


Keith, the article you posted says this:

"This crime genre transcends every nationality, religious faith or group, nor is it unique to the UK, every country in the world has honour-based violence..."

So why did you think you needed to bring up the subject on a thread that is specifically about Muslims? What it looks like is that you are only using the issue as an excuse to spread more hatred towards Muslims. Do you only care about crimes like these when they are committed by Muslims? Do you not care about the victims if their murderers are not Muslim?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:00 PM

Over to you, Carol

I disagree with your prime minister.

Mr. Choudary said that it's the duty of Muslims to "stand together to prevent oppression and injustice to our brothers and sisters (in Afghanistan)"

-and-

"This is a procession that will highlight what is going on there and the real costs of the war."

And then he continues to say in various ways, that the purpose of the march is to highlight the plight of the people in Afghanistan, including large numbers of women and children who are being killed and maimed by UK and US military forces.

Please explain to me how these sentiments are contrary or foreign to UK culture and UK sensibilities, and please explain to me how moving to another country would provide him with a better way to correct the problems he is trying to bring to the attention of the people of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:07 PM

CarolC, do you not have some knitting to do or cakes to make perhaps? That would focus your mind on more useful things.

Mr. 3legs, I find it incredibly telling that you would consider it more useful to focus one's mind on knitting or cakes than on standing up for oppressed minorities. Is that a particularly British sensibility or something?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:30 PM

Carol,
       If Mr. Choudary and his ilk are really serious about "preventing oppression and injustice to their brothers and sisters" then they should hot foot it to Afghanistan or Pakistan and present their petition and demonstration there advising the offenders that they will continue to march and even stamp their feet until they get their way. That should put the wind up the Taliban!.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Dr.Quelch
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:39 PM

Good Morning Class. Are you all sitting comfortably? Good. Then here is the first lesson in euphemism.
You may take notes.

"Honour killing = Murder"
Did you miss that Jones Minor? Then pay attention.

"Honour Killing = Murder"

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:40 PM

No, CarolC, Bonzo's idiotic comment does not represent a British sensibility. I cannot, as a British contributor, imagine what point Mr 3-legs imagined himself to be making; &, on behalf of all right-thinking Youkayers, I disassociate myself absolutely from its patronising, sexist tone (the only sense I can make of it is as some sort of variant of "Kinder, Kirche, Küche & don't worry your pretty little head over such matters!").

Not for the first time I find myself in the main in disagreement with you over many of the points you make; but I would not dream of responding in such irrelevant and unworthy terms as that.

Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:13 PM

Carol,

I think it is important to make a distinction in this case between two independant but significant factors.

1. The protest that has been proposed, on paper, represents legitimate viewpoints that are supportable.

With that in mind, there is no reason why anyone should have a problem with the March that Chaudhary is trying to organiize.


2. However, There are some pretty objectionable characters in politics who have the intelligence and talent for spin to justify their actions using apparently reasonable arguments.

In Britain, Nick Griffin and his cronies, including the BNP trolls (troll) who inhabit tha mudcat sewers, have a talent for pretending to have a caring rational motive for their thinking.


In the case of Chaudary, while I see that his protest is on paper a legitimate one, I believe he and his followers to be trolls of a different sort.

Rather than lying in wait under virtual bridges for unsuspecting internet forum users to pass by before provoing them, Chaudary goes to sensitive places with a deliberate aim of causing 'controversy'.

His protest will not have the result he claims to seek, but will instead turn British nationals against him.

The families of the dead will not listen to a man who 'appears' to be mocking their dead sons.

A cleverer campaigner would have thought of a better strategy ... unless his intent was to deliberately provoke and hurt.

I may be wrong, but that is my feeling.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:30 PM

John from Kemsing, going to Afghanistan to protest won't do anything to stop women and children being killed by UK and US forces there. There is nothing Mr. Choudary can do in Afghanistan to bring to an end the military occupation of that country by the UK and US, or the killing of innocent women and children there by your government and mine. Bringing their plight to the attention of the people of the UK, can have an effect in the UK, because if enough public pressure is applied to the government in the UK, it will have to end its military occupation of Afghanistan. Is there some reason why this form of protest is incompatible with the culture of the UK? Is it un-British to be against letting your government carry on wars and military occupations in other peoples' countries? Are you telling me that you think your country has a right to do whatever it wants on other peoples' countries, and that it is un-British to express disagreement with this concept? If so, I find that a bit strange given the amount of abuse people in the US get from people in the UK about our invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Or are you telling me that protest is an acceptable form of discourse in the UK, but only when it is practiced by people who are not Muslim?


Dr.Quelch, is it also murder when Hindus do it, or is it only murder when Muslims do it?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:36 PM

Lox, I am willing to consider your argument. You have a lot of credibility on the issue of human rights as far as I am concerned. But the argument you made is not the arguments I see being articulated by most of the people in this thread. The arguments I see being articulated by most people in this thread is that Muslims have no place in the UK if they try to exercise their right to protest. Most of the arguments I'm seeing on this thread don't look a whole lot different to me than those one would find coming from the BNP.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:05 PM

CarolC
>>And then he continues to say in various ways, that the purpose of the march is to highlight the plight of the people in Afghanistan, including large numbers of women and children who are being killed and maimed by UK and US military forces.<<

Are you that gullable.

He is stirring the shit and the quicker they get him and his cronies out of the Uk the better for all Muslims in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:34 PM

>>>>Lizzie, it's also incredibly rare for women to be stoned in Iran.<<<<


If you say so, Carol....


...except Amnesty International know there have been 8 women and one man stoned last year.....

So that's nearly one a month...and that's only the ones they KNOW about.

And if you google it, you can find it all online.......here

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:42 PM

Well, Villan, given the amount of actual information that has been provided here in this thread, versus the amount of what looks like racist vitriol, I don't think it's gullibility on my part to take Mr. Choudary at his word. I mean really... who would I be more inclined to believe - people who sound like foot soldiers for the BNP, or someone who has articulated a position without resorting to any racist or hateful sounding vitriol? The answer looks pretty clear to me.

Lox and Peter K get the benefit of the doubt from me, but most most of the other people in the thread sound far less reasonable than Mr. Choudary.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Paddy
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:51 PM

CarolC, I never read such rantings in my life. If they love their country and it's traditions so much why live in Britain, it's not a Muslim country ?

You are a fine person, but my dear you really need to open your eyes to reality and see around a few more corners. Also, to say Lox has "credibility" well it gives us all something to laugh at tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:56 PM

Hannity doesn't give a shit about the women of Iran. All he cares about is softening up the people of the US to support a US attack on that country. That's what he does for a living. He shills for the military industrial complex. Ask the women of Iran how they feel about that prospect. They'll tell you they don't want the US to attack Iran.

In the last few years, stonings of men have overtaken those of women in Iran. We don't know the air date of that video you posted a link to, but it's not true that eight women have been stoned to death in the last year, so it has to be old footage.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:58 PM

Paddy, as I said before, they've fled to your country because your government has made their lives a bloody hell in their own countries. If you want to get them to stop fleeing you your country, you need to start putting some serious pressure on your government to get the hell out of their countries and stop killing their women and children.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:10 PM

By the way, Paddy, I am assuming that Lox is correct when he says you are BNP. You should know that you don't help your cause by spreading hatred of Muslims. You're playing right into the hands of your government, who want nothing more than a good excuse to continue their imperialist agenda in the Middle East. As long as countries like yours and mine are in the Middle East making the lives of the people there miserable, they will continue to seek refuge in our countries in ever greater numbers. Time to get to work on your government, Lad! Tell them to end the imperialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: GUEST,Paddy
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:31 PM

No CarolC I am not a supporter/member of the BNP, You listen to what Lox says ? well you are the only one. He calls everyone a BNP member if they disagree with him here. CarolC, I am British and I respect Islamic traditions (in their own countries) all I ask is they respect mine. The British way of life is/was something I was proud of.

I was born in Dublin (father from Tralee) I moved to the midlands of England as a child, I now live in London. It's a mess CarlC, a mess. All I want is the values I grew up with respected. I want those nights when we played in Manchester bars and craiced with everyone, black,white,yellow, green and orange. You just can't give anyone a bit of stick these days without being PC.

CarolC, Britain isn't a country I know anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic Protest in Wootton Bassett
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:35 PM

When people flee for their lives to other countries because war has overtaken their own countries, the last thing anyone should expect them to do is to give up entirely the traditions they had in their home countries. Of course they shouldn't be allowed to continue any traditions that are against the law in their adopted country, but whatever traditions they can keep are a blessing for people who have lost everything. It's cruel to expect them to give up their culture in order to fit in. As I said before, if your government is going to go into other countries and make it difficult for people to continue living in those places, the people of your country really don't have a right to criticize those who find refuge from your government in your own country.