BS: Should you alienate Fascists?

Subject: BS: Should you alienate Fashists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:07 PM

Seems to me that fascists should be as welcome in any audience for folk music as anyone else of any number of alternative life styles and beliefs.

When folk musicians campaign against them they are simply cutting off a part of the free world and denying others a point of view. So you dont worry that they will not turn up at your concerts or buy your cds?

My worry is that they will be turned off from folk music in general and that is not a good thing as we need as much cultural transmission as possible.

IMHO politics shoiuld not be put between a performer and a member of the audience or turn off potential audience.

This does not mean that a folk artist can not express themselves but that it would be more tolerant to respect the views of others and play songs of all points of view.

Should folkies distance themselves from the rest of the world by taking sides in politics?

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fashists?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:10 PM

"Should folkies distance themselves from the rest of the world by taking sides in politics?"

Shouldn't that be: Should folkies distance themselves from the rest of the world by not taking sides in politics?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fashists?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:11 PM

Ummm...fascists, by definition, are not much part of the free world, there, #1. They're kind of committed to the reduction of freedom.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fashists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:13 PM

Wanker

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fashists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:15 PM

They are still people and many folkies seem to want to put them down for their beliefs. Is that the role of anyone trying to extend or preserve a centuries old tradition(s) that is in need of assistance from everyone.

When you hang a political sign on your work you limit your audience.
Audiences are already small enough.

You must extend to folks the tolerance you desire for yourself.

Politics can be in music and song but should not be used to exclude folks from music or song no matter what their belief.

Folk musicians against whatever is not helpful.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fashists?
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:29 PM

I am not necessarily against any person. In fact I am very much for people of all shades of opinion. Unfortunately this leaves me rather ill equipped to deal with fascists, who see the world rather differently. I will play music in a room containing child molestors as long as no actual child molesting goes on in the same room. My problem is that I feel that fascism has about as much moral basis as child molesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fashists?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 12:33 PM

Many folk musicians do not want their music being used as a tool by fascists. Many in the folk community also do not wish to see English traditions harnessed to the BNP's political agenda. That is the issue. Not which individuals choose to attend concerts, and what their own political beliefs might be.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fashists?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:03 PM

I can't imagine how I'd recognize a fascist in an audience or group of musicians if all they are doing is music.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Smedley
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:14 PM

I can just see the posters:

THIS THURSDAY
LOWER CLUTTERBUCK FOLK CLUB PRESENTS
SETH TWANG AND HIS RUSTIC FUNSTERS
FASCISTS WELCOME

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:14 PM

I alienate everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:18 PM

Yes.

Subject: BS: SHOULD WE ALIENATE PSYCHOPATHS
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:21 PM

Seems to me that psychopaths should be as welcome in any audience for folk music as anyone else of any number of alternative life styles and beliefs.

When folk musicians campaign against them they are simply cutting off a part of the free world and denying others a point of view. So you dont worry that they will not turn up at your concerts or buy your cds?

My worry is that they will be turned off from folk music in general and that is not a good thing as we need as much cultural transmission as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:24 PM

One wonders... (perhaps 2 or 3 wonder).. if you, Conrad, have BEEN excluded from some event(s) for your political leanings?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:35 PM

hhmmm as the OP spelling of thread title is questionable, should we give the benefit of the doubt that perhaps he was referring to the one time online fashist (fashion) ezine?


naaaa!

Pretty rich, him asking for tolerance for people who exhibit none.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Arkie
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 01:48 PM

I do not know who is being labeled fascist here, but those I would consider fascist have no interest in free speech, except for themselves, free thought, or folk music.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:00 PM

The BNP is a party of thugs, racists and bigots. It's original leader, John Tyndall, was an open nazi who prided himself on his Hitler worship, anti semitism and violent racism.He can be viewed on google images in fill nazi regalia.He also had a string of criminal convictions for a range of serious offences.
His successor,the expublic schoolboy Nick Griffin is a former youth leader of the vile National Front and has been involved in far right and racist politics since his schooldays. He is has a race hate conviction for anti semitism [1998].
But the BNP is a party full of convicted criminals...terrorism, sex crimes, violent assault, murder, football hooliganism wife beating, bomb making and much much more.
If we ever let those violent characters get to power we would be dragged into a state of racial barbarism.
Fascists welcomed to any music audience.I think not!Woody Guthrie had the right idea!
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:23 PM

Well considering the bigotry he has displayed in the past, I am not surprised by this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 03:21 PM

Why was the title changed to hide the fact that the OP managed to display his erudition by writing "Fashists"? Has fascism a guardian angel amongst the elves?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:44 PM

Richard...only the title was spelled wrong...his post spelled it correctly.

Some errors are merely being in a hurry and hitting 'enter' to soon.

I assume a moderator fixed it simply to facilitate future searches and avoid confusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:45 PM

So you don't like them ignore them but don't confuse music with politics by taking sides.....as in saying all folkies should hate X
no reason to do that

What has what a party does with music to do with music.
Whenever folkies decide to cut themselves off from a segment of the population they are being intolerant and it makes people from that segment of the population feel unwelcome and we cant afford to do that.

So have your politics but dont suggest that folkies have the time to make political affiliation a major issue. It benefits no one. You can have politics in your music but you should not use music as a tool for or against any group. You may wish to consider playing music from both sides to demonstrate that tolerance. Why aren't more songs of fascism sung. All songs are treasures, the art is more than the message.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:56 PM

Richard, I changed the thread title so people could find the damn thread. The initial title remains in the initial messages. Thread titles are used to index threads, not to make statements or the show the thread originator's erudition or lack thereof. The intent is to have a thread be a discussion of the topic on hand, not of the abilities of the original poster.
That being said, I personally think it's a stupid topic for discussion.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fashists?
From: Royston
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:56 PM

Fasscist alienate themselves. Good riddance.

I wouldn't advocate a door policy at folk gigs, that's silly. If fascists feel unwelcome, that's because they are unwelcome.

I think anyone can change the thread title at any time, that will be proven if this reverts to "Fashist" from this point forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:59 PM

Don't confuse music and politics? How can you separate them? Music and politics are part of life. How can I want to share music and good times, and at the same time want to quash freedom and human rights?

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:01 PM

Deutschland erwache!

Germany awake from your nightmare!
Give foreign Jews no place in your Empire!
   We will fight for your resurgence!
   Aryan blood shall never perish!

All these hypocrites, we throw them out,
Juda leave our German house!
   If the native soil is clean and pure,
   we united and happy will be!

We are the fighters of the NSDAP
True Germans in heart, firm and tough in our Struggle
To the Swastika, devoted are we
Hail our Leader, Hail Hitler to thee!


Blut muss fließen

    Sharpen the long knives on the pavement,
    let the knives stab into the Jews body.

    Blood must flow extreme extensive
    and we shit on the freedom of this Jews Republic.

    Tug the concubine out of the rulers bed,
    grease the guillotine with the Jews fat.

    Blood must flow extreme extensive
    and we shit on the freedom of this Jews Republic.

    There's a black pig hanging in the synagogoue,
    throw the grenades into the parliaments.

    Blood must flow extreme extensive
    and we shit on the freedom of this Jews Republic.



So, Conrad you think songs like these are art? Where is the art? All I see is hatred...songs to corrupt the misguided working class to follow in lock step their corporate masters. Go put on a blue shirt and march.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:03 PM

I thought fascists only like Wagner ... why would they go to a folk music venue.


ok ... I'm outta here.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:08 PM

Should you alienate Fascists? You mean, so that you can stay on their good side?

I know some rare musicians who are conservative in their political views, but not, to my knowledge, fascist. Whenever they sing a political song their known views always color my views. However, - and it always surprises me!- their political stance doesn't take away from their talent. :)

That said, I'm speaking only of right-wing politics; if they were openly racist, (or specist- a sop to Little Hawk's friend) or unpleasantly classist or a number of other 'ists' I would not have them in my home.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:08 PM

Folk music seems to attract "the left", perhaps through its history in the US, where the banner was carried by members of the Communist Party...and in the UK many of the founding fathers were Communists or hard left activists.

These people inspired me to join the C P and remained a member for most of my life.....They fought for freedom from the slavery of capitalism, freedom of thought and discussion and to change society in a meaningful, perhaps Utopian way.

Many would have called them fascists, as they were so committed, but I never would.

In contrast today's left are fascists to a man, each one enmeshed in the minutiae of modern left wing politics, none with the wish to change anything of substance, only silence any form of dissent.
Folk music in general, and this forum in particular is full of them.

I would say, get the fascists out of folk music and give it back to the revolutionaries!!

Woody, leadbelly, Ewan.....must be turning in their graves.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:10 PM

*#1 PEASANT*

Why aren't more songs of fascism sung.

Did a human being capable of finding W on the keyboard really type that sentence?

Is anybody really trying to reason with this git?

Subject: Folklore: Is perception of folk polarization good
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:23 PM

Ok I have avoided the FA****** word that got one thread stopped.

Is it helpful for folkies to appear to project one political polarity or another or should folkies try to appear more tolerant and even handed concentrating on the art of the music and the literary merit of the lyrics and the fit between the two?

Music is music. A good set of constructed words, a good well constructed tune and a good match of the two. Who cares what the political message? We are not here to promote hate, promote love, hate those who hate, love those who hate - these things are not music. Music is so much more.

Do we not loose audience each time we try to project some sort of political badge or affiliation which all folkies should subscribe to as in lets be anti this or pro that?

Why is it so hard to simply regard music and lyrics as art without dwelling on the goodness of the political message which itself is only a small part of any song.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is perception of folk polarization good
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:39 PM

The problem is that a political agenda is co-opting folk music. If traditional songs are in danger of fading in the wash of mass produced popular music, why should it be further threatened by associations with a monstrous political agenda?

I don't see why reasonable people shouldn't want to protect the music from such associations.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is perception of folk polarization good
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:43 PM

And sure as I know jack shit from applebutter, that comment will get me back on the BNP fakebook shit list. Well good.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is perception of folk polarization good
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:43 PM

No, Fascism is not allowable in folk music.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is perception of folk polarization good
From: GUEST,The Folk E
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:44 PM

Too many folksingers are trying to save the world, spouting politics, etc.

While they are doing this, I am the one getting the gigs entertaining people who really only want to hear some music.

Keep it up!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is perception of folk polarization good
From: pdq
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:54 PM

Imagine going to a Socialist rally and having a Folk concert break out.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:19 PM

OK, Conrad, I talked with the volunteer who closed the original thread, and we agreed to combine threads and allow them to continue as a non-music thread - until the usual riot takes place. We certainly would not want to alienate any fascists...

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:25 PM

Isn't that "Fashits"?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:27 PM

VT....Didnt the political agenda of the real left (Woody Ewan etc) co opt folk music?

Wasn't that what the revival was all about?

Seems to me, fascist to say it must always be OUR agenda!

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:30 PM

How does one go about alienating a Fascist? ;-)























I bet it's the same way one alienates most people...

Disagree with him.
Disapprove of him.
Pick a fight with him over his beliefs.
Let him know you can't stand him.
Point out all the things you don't like about him.
Demand that he be excluded from society.
Make him well aware that he is as the dirt beneath your noble shoes.

Etc...

Really quite simple when you think about it. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 06:57 PM

That's REAL irony folks.....just like they do it in the good ole UK!

Nice one Hawk.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:10 PM

Are we talking about F/fascists, who have a distinct political and economic philosophy, or are we back on the BNP, whose core philosophy (as far as I can tell) is basic bigotry thinly disguised as appreciation for traditional (don't start!) values? If the former, probably. If the latter, certainly - if you have the time to waste.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:46 PM

Yeah, I guess in its purest form fascism is just an
economic system.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:57 PM

"Should you alienate Fascists?"

Every single one of the bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:01 PM

I don't think it can be defined as an economic system, Rig...although economics is definitely part of it.

What it strikes me as is an attitude of exclusivity and innate superiority to those who are considered "outsiders" in any sense; the establishment of an elite power group of rulers who are essentially above the law...though they're very eager to use the law to keep other people in line...; and an outright worship of militarism, weaponry, the armed forces, and exagerrated patriotism of every kind.

One sees these characteristics clearly in all the famous fascist systems of the 30s and 40s...plus in a great many systems now who have historically prided themselves on the fact that they fought and defeated fascism!

I shall name no names.... ;-)

One thing you have to really watch out for in this world is someone who swears up and down that he is a fervent anti-fascist (and no doubt believes it)....yet he behaves just like a fascist himself as soon as he has the power to.

That's a very common phenomenon in this world.

You can also have fascists, in my opinion, who are socialist or communist as well as fascists who are capitalist. We've had a whole series of fascists of those types. They may not agree on economic systems...but they do agree on raw power, ruthlessness, dishonesty, militarism, imperial conquest, institutionalized prejudice, and theft.

And they feel bloody well righteous and noble while they're doing it too.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:15 PM

Thanks to the management!

Music and tradition have to flow. We have to get songs and traditions through time-person to person, one to another and place to place.

Whenever we keep anyone from helping with that process we set it back and we have a hard enough job anyway.

Its bad enough that you don't agree with a group or party but why would you wish to keep them from sharing your music and what would be wrong with sharing theirs.

So maybe you can recite a disclaimer- The songs I am about to sing I love as art but do not necessarily agree with the content.

The art of writing notation, pairing it with lyrics and composing verse. Nothing political in that and that is what we glorify in music not the content.

If a person considering folkmusic- to attend, listen to, purchase, play, compose, sing, arrange.....ever says

"I would do it but that is music of people who believe "xyz" and is not for me"

WE have lost out, we have won nothing we have only discouraged others from appreciating what we appreciate.

Folk music is not a political party. Folkies should not act like a political party. They should remain neutral as a group but free as individuals. Once we are perceived as a polarized politically biased against any group we loose because it is not for us to consider politics- just to consider music.

The wonder of folk music is that it has risen above political concerns to continue. We need to keep it that way. As with the gunpowder plot. The celebration and customs of bonfire could continue because both king and parliament were saved by the discovery of the plot. When each took turns at power the customs could continue with the victor's blessing. What would happen if the political party you hated came to power after you had succeeded in booting them out of your musical tradition and alienating them from enjoying it? Not a chance whereas if you agree to disagree on politics and share the music it will have a much better chance.

A reflection on my personal history. In my conservative american household in the 50s we listened to a wide variety of music- classical, european, american, jazz. My father played folk music.
When Pete Seeger covered himself with the red flag hammer and sickle
a political barrier to his folk music was created. One had to look past his politics to see the music. He was banned from our patriotic household. I did not listen to his music till much later. Had Seeger kept his politics to his personal off stage expression his music might have been seen by more. One thing that Seeger has eventually done has been to try to perform the music of both sides of issues. This is important. This side sang this the other that. All good songs no matter what the politics projected by each.

Go forth and collect the songs of all people, admire them for their craftmanship and wonder you can do so without tarnishing them with politics or philosophy. Look to the popularity of gaelic songs. Hardly anyone knows what they mean in the mass market yet the artistry comes through in many dimensions.

I once gave a bartender a cassette of orange songs to play in a predominantly republican leaning bar in Baltimore during the break of a live performance. The bartender played the songs. The large crowd enjoyed them lyric composition tunes. Hands clapped, the music reached the people.....until a hot headed accordion player was told by me what was playing....he then insisted that politics was more important than art and ripped the cassette from the player.

We have so few listeners and helpers. We can not afford setbacks caused by wrapping folk music in exclusionary banners and political litmus tests.

Conrad Bladey
Peasant

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:52 PM

I don't see how Pete Seeger could have been anyone but who he was. He paid for it, but anything else would have been dishonest.

    "I don't think it can be defined as an economic system, Rig...although economics is definitely part of it."


             I've done no research to prove it, but my understanding of fascism is simply "Corporate Control of Everything." One votes, in a sense, by buying stock in a company, or not buying in another. The fascist governments in Europe in the 1930's-1940's brought racism and antisemitism to the table for political purposes, but I don't think the original concept of fascism had anything to do with race or ethnicity.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:00 PM

Tell me, Conrad, would you feel the same about Nazis?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:12 PM

I would gladly listen to Natzi music, put the politics out of the mind and evaluate the construction of the tune, the composition of the verse, rhyme scheme,relationship of words to tune politics has so little to do with the entire treasure of a multi dimensional folksong.

I was listening to a haitian songwriter politico the other day. I do not understand the language. I thoroughly disagreed with the politics for the most part but really liked the sound and flow of the music and lyrics.

To cut people off from music or music off from people just because of one of its dimensions or an association is wrong.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:16 PM

Thank you for your answer.

I disagree with you, but I suspect no argument will convince you otherwise. Best to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:21 PM

So you must like the song lyrics I posted above. lyrics like "Sharpen the long knives/let the knives stab into the Jew's body."

Those are English translations of Nazi propaganda. Like stated before you bigotry does not surprise me.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:24 PM

How do you know you disagree with the politics, if you don't understand the language?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:28 PM

Read what he said. Read the translation fer keriste sake.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:36 PM

Which translation, 999? You mean this one:

Germany awake from your nightmare!
Give foreign Jews no place in your Empire!
   We will fight for your resurgence!
   Aryan blood shall never perish!


? That's the first translation I find reading backward up the thread.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:38 PM

"How do you know you disagree with the politics, if you don't understand the language?"

I take it you then disagree with the politics after seeing the translation?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:41 PM

MT: Let Conrad answer that, will ya? Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:55 PM

You make it sound like bring a insensitivity,dogmatic and delusional neo-megalomaniac is a bad thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 11:05 PM

Have you taken the test?


http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 11:13 PM

I was talking about #1 peasant's hearing of a Haitian folk song.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 11:15 PM

Have I been excluded from events for political color of my songs
Yes
Southern Maryland Celtic Festival would not let me even post information about the existence of a web page of a collection of Orange Songs of the tradition of the island of Ireland.

They cited ban on politics.

I went right from my scolding to listen to three groups on three stages at the same festival who openly and without complaint were allowed to sing Republican songs of that tradition of the isle of Ireland

Never actually been tossed out I don't think. I am tempted to wear a conservative political button something like vote republican and see how pleasant folkies would be to me but have not wished to spoil friendships by exercising my freedom.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 11:27 PM

ubject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Amergin - PM
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:21 PM

So you must like the song lyrics I posted above. lyrics like "Sharpen the long knives/let the knives stab into the Jew's body."

Those are English translations of Nazi propaganda. Like stated before you bigotry does not surprise me.

____________________________________________
Some of the most beautiful songs in the gaelic language contain wondrous tunes - treasures combined with words that are crafted into grand works of art- it is only when you translate them that there is a political view- the politics in a song is only a very small bit small enough to be vastly overshadowed by the crafting of notes and sounds. Famous poets write on a lot of subjects their poetry is still recognized as great not based upon content or literal meaning but by a host of other factors.
Get the record the Blue and the Grey- one side civil war songs of the north the other of the south- they can exist as flip sides and played and enjoyed. I could see a similar record of rabid zionist songs on one side and Nazi or rabid Palestinian songs on the other. For our purposes a song must be primairly a song.

Somewhere I remember reading of a songwriter recently who was paid to write songs for two vastly opposing political groups. His songs were praised as excelent even though content was not at all compatable.
))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))more below


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Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief - PM
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 10:24 PM

How do you know you disagree with the politics, if you don't understand the language?

Because songs are wondrous things you need not listen to or appreciate the political statements while still benefiting from the song and the crafting of the words viewed abstractly. If you only listen to the literal meaning of songs you are missing way too much.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:06 AM

Thanks, MT. Conrad, send me some of what you're taking.



























On second thaought, please don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:51 AM

Hi there Dude.....IUt be me...SPAW, your old buddy with yet another of my welcome messages for you!!!!

Well here we are again with yet another dumbass thread from that King of the Genre, Cornhole Bladderass, #1 PISSANT.   It is always such a pleasure to have you show up just to prove that one man CAN BE the dumbest ass in the western hemisphere!

Just love your latest philosophy! Lessee if I have it right........A song is a song is a song. Yeah, uh-huh, sure.......so then a rose is a rose is a rose.......and a broke-dick jadrool is a broke-dick jadrool is a broke-dick jadrool and you are. Seems right to me.

Please continue if you any words of wisdom. So far you haven't.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:53 AM

Some things we call constants.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:14 AM

If you rate Nazism as the "other side" of Zionism you're sick.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:42 AM

That is a very US-centric test, Ed. Indeed some of the particualr choices offered make little sense outside the US religio-political enclave. However, I appear to be about as libertarian as the Dalai Lama, but more communistic, and both more libertarian and more communistic than Gandhi.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:51 AM

Fascism espouses the idea of a totalitarian state which, by its very nature, is opposed to personal liberty and freedom of speech. Therefore 'fascissm' and 'freedom of speech' are oxymorons (I'll refrain from drawing the obvious analogy beteween fasicst and moron).

Take the politics out of folk music and you lose a whole chunk. Traditionally, those politics have been left wing - and long my it be so. I, for one, will continue to oppose (and, hopefully alienate) the BNP and it's bedfellow, UKIP, in every way I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:03 AM

Take the politics out of folk music and you lose a whole chunk. Traditionally, those politics have been left
_________________

you miss the point

not arguing that politics be taken out of the song content but that the community be open to all expressions from all people in a spirit of tolerance not dwelling on the individual messages but rather on the art of composition. I find it hard to believe that people can dismiss songs and song traditions just because of lyric content a relativly minor aspect of the whole. I find it easy to disregard the original purposes and messages of the lyrics. Sometimes it takes me several listens to figure out what the message is in the first place.
____________________________________

Politics have been left because communities of left thinkers have excluded others and have dominated. We need to watch out for intolerance of any kind even if it comes from people we agree with. If we focus upon the universal ground of language construction, rhyme pattern and arrangement of notes we will not have such divisions which keep others from joining us in the appreciation of traditions of all kinds and achievements of song creators and keepers through the centuries.

For example- celtic music If you listen to the celtic folks has come down from thousands of years (many would disagree but many still hold this point of view) If so then the ancient Irish Songs were produced by head hunters and those owning slaves- now under standards expressed in this forum we would never wish to play ancient celtic music due to these negative associations.

If we did so that would be a great loss. So lets get over it for other traditions and make them welcome not as political forces but as creators of musical treasures.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:32 AM

The BNP are an itch like syphilis (without the pleasure in the acquiring process). I note the BNP clone-makers are out again. Wonderful pattern of honesty. Did you see the Wisbech programme Sam? Your grunts can't cut it.


Konrad - you appear to know even less Irish history than me, and that takes some doing!

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 10:12 AM

If by alienate you mean meet them in the street with a baseball bat, you got my vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 11:09 AM

If by alienate you mean meet them in the street with a baseball bat, you got my vote
__________________

such treatment of those you disagree with will not assist the preservation and growth of folk music
music can heal divides but not when this sort of attitude prevails

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 11:23 AM

Geeziz Cornhole....You are really the epitome af an asswipe.......

Tell ya' what Cumstain.....How about you take that nice KKK song all about hating and killing niggers and Jews and go sing it for all the folks you meet just to show us how music can help heal. Go ahead......Let us all know how it goes for you.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 11:25 AM

"you miss the point"

On the contrary - the point is plain and clear. Zero tolerance for fascists and if the songs can help oppose them, we'll sing them loud and often. The message of those songs is everything. Got it now?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 11:58 AM

Why Tom T Hall would have written a song to Fascism, if he had of thought of it.Here's an example of what he could have done:

I like fascists. They make us all radical fellows
I like facists.
Much into themselves and those of their kind,
They've made me a right think'in fellow (Made him a right think'in fellow)
Commies are not tough, socialists cost too much, Hitler put my car in gear
This little refrain should help me explain as a matter of fact I like fascists
(He likes fascists)

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:05 PM

Ah, yes...if only we could identify all the real fascists, wouldn't that be lovely? I very much doubt it will ever happen. They don't all walk around, after all, conveniently sporting swastika armbands and shaved heads.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:09 PM

This is fuckin' hilarious, you guys wouldn't know a fascist if you found one in your soup.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:12 PM

My My that was a bit spooky, Hawk.....cross posted

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:34 PM

Apparently there are some folkies who go out of their way to recruit fascists, because they have so much fun arguing with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:35 PM

The wind blew and the shit flew..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:49 PM

Richard Bridge ~

Purely out of interest & desire for clarity:

~ your first post on this thread ~ #4 on the thread overall ~ consisted solely of the word "Wanker". It was not clear to me whether this was addressed to the OP or to the poster of post #3 which immediately preceded yours.

Could you be so kind as to elucidate, for taxonomic & comprehensional purposes, please.

Regards ~ Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:12 PM

"Well *#1 PEASANT* you will always get remarks like that here"

If you don't like it you can sod off back to your fascist friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:20 PM

This is so jolly! ;-) It's just like a bunch of McCarthyites getting together in 1956 and agreeing on how much they all hate those vile commies (although they wouldn't know a real commie if they tripped over him).

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:55 PM

"....ordinary Fascists themselves are prone to all the fallibilities of the human condition. Fascism has never claimed otherwise" Quote from an interesting defense on being fascist at this site:
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/1622

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 02:58 PM

The BNP is a hangover from the National Front which for all intents and purposes is an English Nazi party.    This slogan from The National Front website "The National Front - The party of White family values."

Makes me shudder.

For the facebook fake BNP profile creator (who I imagine is lurking about here), I reported the fake profile of me to admin this morning. Now either the facebook admin are really on the ball (highly unlikely as it has always taken weeks before) or the creator pissed himself with fear at getting caught and removed it.

Conrad FYI, on that fake facebook profile of me your name was mentioned. You may want to follow up on that. Or maybe not.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:14 PM

Takes all kinds to sing in the Choir
If you want a Choir and find a fascist that sings well
I guess you should simply sing and not mention politics
The music you will find does not mind but prospers
whoever sings it.

We can not afford to turn any group away from the music.
If you get a folk gathering together and want it to expand simply do't talk politics- if you feel the urge to talk politics have another drink.

Once a group takes on a political aura projecting a political dimension of its identity it repels the unlike group. We can't afford to loose people.

As you know or may not know......I am an artcar artist. My feeling is that designing an art car and driving it daily is something for everyone- just like folk music. Once a fellow cartist described my vehicle as a "crazy car" to a child with parent.
The entire category of artcar was thereafter marked for that individual. It will be harder for them to join in the movement.

Same with folkies. If you project extreme politics or on side left or right in everything you do then you will simply put the wall up and you will fail to reach those on the other side. Sad when there is so much more to music and our need to perpetuate and transmit it.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:21 PM

"Wanker"
As with Mike's question, was that to anyone in particular Richard or the world in general?
Peasant;
As the avarage fascist's beliefs seem to extend to ridding the world of anybody who doesn't conform to their own beliefs and racial backgrounds, when the opportunity arises, by exterminating them - what do you think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:36 PM

WHy "should" you alienate anyone?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:38 PM

Exactly! Build bridges not walls.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:22 PM

All fascists and their apologists are wankers

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:29 PM

Dont be so hard on yourself Richard !! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:35 PM

And as for anyone who says that a person's musical ability outweighs all other things - what if Hannibal Lecter could sing?

The foolish idea that fascism is a legitimate "third way" can be tested by looking at the espousing states - Nazi Germany and Mussolini's Italy.

The idea that the present nazi idealogues and sympathisers participate in genuine political debate can be tested by going to the fake BNP Mudcat, and seeing what the grunts and knuckle draggers there ("Sam Hudson" included) post.

It has been an inherent part of fascist thought since the 1930s that the "Plond Aryan Peast" is a superior type of human and that the swarthy and the negroid, the Jewish and the Roma were pestilential corrupters of the superior genotype (read some of the stuff about spermatic absorption) - all of which led directly to the extermination camps.

Civilised humans know what Dick Griffin and pals are.

That, "Peasant", includes you but it is regrettable that you lower the name of peasantry by adopting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:38 PM

Jim, fascist movements do not always have a racial component in their recipe for "setting things right". They may, and often have had such a racial bone to pick, but it is not necessarily a defining characteristic of fascism. You can have a fascist system without any racial issues coming to the fore. On the other hand, it is always a defining characteristic of fascists to, as you said, desire to "to rid the world of anybody who doesn't conform to their own beliefs".

However, that is also a defining feature of anyone at all who is aggressively exclusive about his beliefs and thereby intolerant of the beliefs of others.... ;-)

You don't have to be a fascist to want to rid the world of anyone who doesn't conform to your beliefs. You just have to be an intolerant, aggressive, opinionated, self-righteous extremist who thinks his way is the only right way, that's all. Among the ranks of such people are many...

Fascists
Anti-fascists
Communists
Socialists
Democrats
Republicans
Zionists
Jihadists
Black Panthers
Ku Klux Klan
Religious fanatics of EVERY religion imaginable
Political fanatics of every political movement imaginable
Racial fanatics of every race imaginable
Gender fanatics of either gender
Sex-role fanatics of any and all sex roles


Etc.

What I am saying here is that you can find extremely prejudiced and aggressive jerks in any social or political movement if you look hard enough for them...and they aren't very hard to find...because they are the ones who talk loudest and most often, and with the most righteous fury. They KNOW they are "right" and that others are "wrong". ;-D That's what makes them so dangerous.

It is the desire to make everyone "the same" that has covered the world in blood. That existed long before anyone ever heard of "fascism" (a movement founded by Mussolini).

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:53 PM

What a fascist looks like.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox - PM
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:17 PM

Ake,

I'm not running away from you.

I'm right in front of you confirming in absolute and certain terms that I think you are a bigot, a homophobe, a racist, a fantasist and a shit stirrer.

And I will not be apologizing to you.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:59 PM

LH - pudding, proof, etc. Read the essential definitions of fascism. Show me a genuinely non-racist fascist organisation. The belief that all absolutists are fascistic in nature is incorrect, unworthy of you, and beneath your usual standard of contribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 05:26 PM

I think it's only polite to treat facists in the same way they treat others.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 05:26 PM

Are you insisting that I should adopt your belief systems, Richard? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 05:53 PM

Little Hawk, your understanding of fascism, if what you wrote is what you really mean, is sloppy, at best and insulting at worst.

I am sure you/we could come up with a one-word label that fits your description, but "fascist" is not it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 06:50 PM

""It was not, like traditional conservatism, exclusively focused on the past, but was a forward-looking, consciously modernist movement.""

Sure was forward looking. A thousand years wasn't it? Then it hit the wall after only twelve.

Pragmatism, innovation and industry were valued. The innate power and energy of the People was praised. Fascism didn't over-think things. Fascism got it done.""

Yes, Fascism got it done.

6 million Jews from all over occupied Europe.
About 20 million Russians.
How many Gypsies, Homosexuals, Poles and Czechs (non Jewish)

And Germany in total ruins.

That's a high order of Pragmatism, Industry, and efficiency, and unremittingly destructive.

Now people like these anonymous Trolls are trying to impress the citizenry with their "British Patriotism", by annexing the music of the very people who fought and died to get rid of them.

Not necessary to alienate them. They are aliens, in the homeland of those who did away with their forebears.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 06:56 PM

""If you project extreme politics or on side left or right in everything you do then you will simply put the wall up and you will fail to reach those on the other side. Sad when there is so much more to music and our need to perpetuate and transmit it.""

It is precisely because we object to extreme politics that we want rid of the fascist, racist thugs of the British Nazi Party.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:13 PM

Reach fascists to what end? So they can listen to pretty folk music as they plot to overturn democracy and destroy Europe's remaining Jewry? Let 'em make their own music for Jew-bashing; why should they pollute ours?

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:31 PM

"Jim, fascist movements do not always have a racial component in their recipe for "setting things right"
We can assume that our friend is referring to modern facsists - BNP, Ku Klux Clan, Le Pen's mob... today's brand of fascists et al, all of whom have adopted racism as their policy - ask Stepeh Lawrence's parents whether today's fascists are racist, they might be able to give you a hint.
Akenaton
"What a fascist looks like."
On the other hand, perhaps they might look like someone who despises people who don't share their sexual preferences and excuses clerical paedophilia - look to thyself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:35 PM

Georges Sorel was before Mussolini. FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:37 PM

No Ake,

Its just that you're a dick with no brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:40 PM

He is a man whose opinions differ from yours. No need to be vile.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:47 PM

Sorry 999

I was not a part of this thread until I was made aware that Ake is up to his old trick of making comments aboout people behind their backs.

That was how I first crossed swords with him months back, when in a thread about race he referred in a disparaging way to a black mudcatter who had not contributed to that thread behind her back.

He is consistent in his mendacity and sliminess.

I stand by my comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:48 PM

Ok catters, thanks for venting.
Let me know when you have stopped exhibiting the exact same intolerant aspect of folk musical communities that I was drawing attention to.

Glad to have given you all a chance to spew or is that spaw.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:49 PM

Conrad, go away and take your garbage friend with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:54 PM

Lox, I'm sorry for that.

Look, man, you two guys gotta find someway to be able to talk. You are both good people.

If I had any hair left I'd pull it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:59 PM

"He is a man whose opinions differ from yours. No need to be vile. "
Nope - he is a bigotted homophobic hypocrit - pretty vile himself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:04 PM

As always, you're entitled to your opinion. I don't share it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:28 PM

Let me know when you have stopped exhibiting the exact same intolerant aspect of folk musical communities that I was drawing attention to.

In other words when we start agreeing with you, you'll get back to us. Don't do us any favours.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:37 PM

Thanks Bruce...I appreciate that, but people like Lox and Jim are hardly worth your concern....both fall into the modern definition of fascist, in that any dissent from their ideology will not be tolerated under any circumstances, they have even started to turn on Amos in another thread. Dissent is opposed by the use of code words to denigrate their victims. (bigot, homophobe, racist) to name but three.

I have spent the evening listening to music and am perfectly relaxed about how I am viewed by Lox and Jim.

There are a few here, that if I had upset I would worry about, but Lox n' Jim?.......Tra La La :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:40 PM

This has been a bit better and a bit worse than some of your other efforts Pissant. You score well on calling attention to yourself but the sympathy factor was as dead as your dick on this one.

I remember back 10 years ago when you had one all about your great works in "Orange Collection." You do have a fine body of work there but your attitude came through and when I and others jacked up your sorry ass, you got some sympathy from many others. You really had a hit with that crappy one about your car too.....covered in sod or carpet or something stupid. You were your usual pissant self and I really took a lot of flak from the 'Catters who thought I was cruel and that you had turned over a new leaf.

No, this one doesn't come close to those two on the "pity me" scale. The only flies around your shit are some other shit stirrers who are much like yourself.....you know, "dicks".............not even a hard-on...............just limpdick motherfuckers.........just like YOU CB!!!

So when can I expect you back? I actually missed one of your wanker threads once and I have felt bad about it ever since. Let me know because I am more than happy to give you the attention you want just for the privilege of once again pointing out your extremely shortcomings. If your mother had any children that lived bring them along next time too!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 09:15 PM

Historically, of the three true, and temporarily successful, f/Fascist movements - under Mussolini, Hitler and Franco - only Nazism was actually racist. The fact that a movement is racist, or filled with ignorant bullies, hardly makes it fascist. There is an unfortunate tendency to throw around terms without paying any attention to their actual meaning. Besides using fascist to refer to the BNP and its ilk, another example is the ridiculous use of "socialist" or even "communist" to refer to President Obama and the left wing of the Democratic Party in the US...who would generally be placed in the center or even the right-center of the political spectrum in most Western European countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 10:35 PM

I grew up during World War II.

To my knowledge, this was the heyday of fascism and a graphic demonstration of what fascism really amounts to. There were three fascist countries:    Nazi Germany, Italy under Mussolini, and Spain under Franco. There was also Japan, which at the time was a military dictatorship. I'm not sure if political scientists would classify it clearly as fascist, but it was certainly in the ball park.

There were differences between these countries, but they had a number of things in common. The corporations rode high, especially in Italy, where Mussolini said that "Fascism should more properly be called 'corporatism,' because the corporations and the government are one and the same." [You will note that, with the recent Supreme Court decision allowing corporations to buy elected officials, the United States has taken a giant step toward "corporatism," or as it is more commonly called, fascism.]

The common characteristics of all three of these countries (or with Japan, all four) was that they were totalitarian in the extreme, highly militaristic, bellicose (declaring war on other countries willy-nilly with the idea of world conquest—the exception being Spain, that stayed neutral during WW II), and interestingly enough, the dictators of these countries all pranced around wearing military uniforms. Although they were all racist, the most egregious of them was Nazi Germany, that went on an organized, industrialized campaign to rid the world of "undesirables and defectives" such as Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the handicapped, and anyone else that the leaders took a dislike to.

The philosophies expressed by the various neo-Nazi groups who inhabit parts of the American south, northern Idaho, and the wilds of eastern Oregon, and that of the various leaders of the American Nazi Party (all of whom display a penchant for wearing military uniforms and going armed) are an anathema to any decent human being and a rank stench in the noses of those who have a sense of history.

Fascists had their chance seventy years ago and many millions of innocent people were murdered coldly and brutally as a result.

Alienating and isolating fascists is the ethical and moral duty of any civilized human being.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 10:46 PM

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
                                                          —George Santayana

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 11:35 PM

Those who do not get out of the way or adapt to the history coming at them will not have a chance to repeat it-C.Bladey, 2010

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 11:38 PM

Don-

So you believe that folks should alienate all groups including life style choices that you dont agree with?

Can't you sit down with a person and focus on anything else but politics?

A sad state of tolerance we see here.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 12:05 AM

#1 Peasant, you miss the implied point: Music is a wonderful thing. Music is made by people. When those same people are seriously beyond the pale, it necessarily affects the message of the music. Above Hannibal Lector was mentioned. Do you personally feel you could sit in the audience and applaud a known serial killer, just because you like his music?.   .

Fascists - and their ilk - are no less distasteful than Hannibal Lector. There are things more important than music

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 12:34 AM

Those who do not get out of the way or adapt to the history coming at them will not have a chance to repeat it-C.Bladey, 2010

Oooh, a death threat. Just what I'd expect from a Fascist, though. And you want me to be all lovey-lovey with fascists. It would require me to be missing more cogs than I even have.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 01:15 AM

Hmm, that looks remarkably like "Tomorrow belongs to me".

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 02:43 AM

"We can not afford to turn any group away from the music."

I'm not sure who this "we" is that you claim to represent, or why you can't afford to turn fascists away. Personally, I would have nothing to do with any musical group that had a fascist element. I think many people in the folk community would also be alienated by fascists - hence Folk Against Fascism. Perhaps you should start Folk For Fascism and see how many supporters you got.

These are certainly not the sort of people I wish to share my music with:

bnp convictions

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 04:34 AM

From my own experience, I think that UKIP is hot on the heels of the BNP as an ultra-right wing party. Seems I'm not the only one - here are the words of Dr Alan Sked, who originally founded UKIP:

"If the party is really so obsessed with race, immigration and Islam, it should simply merge with the BNP, which it increasingly resembles. Why have a competition in intolerance? Why not present a united front? After all the political expediency that drives both these anti-EU parties to take up seats in the European Parliament surely dictates such a measure. But let us dismiss any thought that either of them represents "British values".

I founded UKIP as a tolerant, liberal and democratic party. By 1997 I could already see the far-right writing on the wall and quit as party leader and member. It is a decision that I have never regretted, now least of all. I hope that all decent people will condemn the party..."

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 05:39 AM

So, Fred, you out yourself as one of the little conspiracy who impersonate others and spread lies about them. I remember you from the nazi boards. I remember your picture on the "friends" lists of some of the troglodytes.

Go and infiltrate some other sort of music with your lies and agenda of white supremacy.

Go and look up the meaning of the word "fascist".

Go and look up the history of the many murders committed by all fascist governments.

Go and look up the list of convictions of the BNP's members and supporters.

Go and learn the difference between "right-thinking" and "of the political right".

Most importantly, go.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:11 AM

"how do you know an ideological extremist when we see one"

Well it's pretty simple really. You listen to their ideas, ideals, values and the language and tone of voice they use. Then you compare it to what known extremists have said. And, if you have a mind, you read the likes of A C Grayling, Tzvetan Todorov, Vasily Grossman and others who were the victims of ideological extremism. Then you make your own mind up. This is what personal liberty is all about. This is what the extremists you support seek to supress.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:36 AM

"the modern definition of fascist"

And this is found in which dictionary?

None?

Its a fabrication of Ake's?

It serves to represent his shallow world view and nothing more?

Gosh - that sounds very clever ...


"they have even started to turn on Amos in another thread"


In what way exactly?

By engaging intelligently with his posts?

I forgot - you are being censored aren't you Ake.

Whenever someone disagrees with you, tells you something you didn't know, or points out weaknesses in your argument, much less exposes your motivations that is actually a form of censorsship isn't it Ake.

Maybe you should write to Amnesty international for help.

Maybe we could start a letter writing campaign to liberate you from your chains.


Then you'll be free to make disparaging groundless comments abot Moslems, Gypsies and immigrants without having insults like "bigot" hurled at you.

Go on ... show us your bruises ...

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:43 AM

Leveller,

I would be a very happy man if I could express myself remotely as clearly, substantially and concisely as your last post.

I will be putting that answer in my mental library.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 07:00 AM

Feel free, Lox, feel free :)

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 07:38 AM

Here on Merseyside, Police have started riding school buses to protect Muslim schoolgirls from being racially attacked. Why? Because of anti-Islamic hatred stirred up by the BNP. Personally I wouldn't piss on the bastards, much less visit a folk club where fascists were accepted. Or if I did I would sing something so offensive to their ideology, that the buggars would walk out immediately.

Conrad Bladey. In case you've forgotten, six million Jews were hauled off to the gas chambers by a regime whose stated objectives included the revitalisation of folk music. White Aryan folk music of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 10:10 AM

Fine I understand but no folk song has ever hauled anyone away...ok maybe hauled away to liver distruction....

sure you can have political opinions nothing wrong with that

just dont talk about folk music in the same sentence.

All folkies can do what they want with politics. it is insulting that some think that just because we are folkies necessairly should agree on political issues. i would hope that we would all have individual opinions. but it does not matter what we think about politics or if we live politically correct lives....the only thing important here is music folklore etc.....and even then we are all independent.

i just don't like statements like "all folkies must do xyz" or all folkies should alienate or exclude or attack a member of a different lifeway, political party-

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 10:13 AM

It's not just folkies. Any decent human should excoriate nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 10:36 AM

Peasant. First of all I was expressing a personal opinion as to what I would do if I was confronted by a folk club which admitted Nazis. If anyone wants to start such a folk club that is entirely up to them. But do not expect me to be part of it, or have anything to do with it.

Secondly, the Third Reich's primary aim was the total Aryanisation of German culture and of the German people, and the elimination of all "inferior" elements from its soil. That meant the extermination of the Jews, gypsies, chronically sick and disabled etc. It also meant the reinstatement of German folk music and other German folk arts, because these were held to be the true and unsullied products of the native German people.

Fascism and the nativisation of folk culture don't thank God always go hand in hand. In Third Reich Germany however, they did. And the same goes for the racist, homophobic, mysogynistic, anti-Semitic, anti-Islamic, Traveller hating British NATIONAL Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 10:42 AM

Sorry we do music as individuals you can do what you want politically just don't consider adoption of political views something that needs to be confused with folk music. On a musical and folkloric level it should not matter what views they have.

Evil is something also that is personally defined. One could consider fok music evil and some do because it leads folks to bad unhealthy lifeways alcoholism etc. So using your logic we should alienate it and ban it.

Apples and oranges.

Lots of people enjoy folk music play and compose it. You think you have to have all of them agree with you politically- that is absurd even though you have facts on your side and may have a good point. I don't agree with many alernative lifeways pratices etc... but I have no trouble living with them. Anyway if you force them away how can you convince them that your point of view has merit.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 11:02 AM

The music is immaterial - it's the people who are the problem and I, for one, don't want to mix with fascists.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 11:13 AM

Peasant. Where did I say everyone who plays and composes folk music has to agree with me? I know a lot of people who don't, but whose performance abilities I nonethless admire and enjoy.

BTW., have you ever tried to convince a dyed in the wool fascist of the merits of your argument?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 11:31 AM

I can see an alien quality in some fascists. Not sure if it has any specific characteristic (though I did see one once who wore a funny hat). But, they are hardly alienish, or true alienoids.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 12:03 PM

changing peoples politics is none of my business it is a matter for the individual and certainly not a matter for the community of folkies.
Based upon this thread thus far many simply believe that you can alienate and exclude a person from music and our community just because of political views. Sad.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 12:08 PM

natzi folk clubs, gay folk clubs, african folk clubs, lesbian folk clubs, druggie folk clubs, carnifor folk clubs, church basement alcohol free folk clubs

Who cares just so they are preserving the music and aiding in its transmission and that they are open to one and every all and don't bother me with their beliefs and try to convert me fine. Takes all kinds to sing in the choir.

To think that someone would object to a folk club just because of the company managing it is terrible. Look into those who own and operate fast food places and you will find a very strange kettle of fish- I know of some of them. It simply does not matter. Just so they keep their hands and ideas to themsleves. Thank god someone is taking an interest in the music.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 12:26 PM

fascism:

A political regime, having totalitarian aspirations, ideologically based on a relationship between business and the centralized government, business-and-government control of the market place, repression of criticism or opposition, a leader cult and exalting the state above individual rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: frogprince
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 12:44 PM

Alienating them does sound like a pretty good idea. (Alienate does mean send them out there where the space aliens are, doesn't it?)

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 12:53 PM

I cannot be arsed to read thread since my last post.

Has anyone looked into or reported how the reputation of traditional songs from any country have suffered due to association with unpalatable ideology?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 02:20 PM

I found another fake profile of me on facebook. Too easy. All I have to do is look on the fake mudcat group
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Mudcat/63332322845?ref=search&sid=1577167692.37875
and look at the friends list.
I have reported it. So whoever you are you better go take it down and make another one.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 02:39 PM

From *1 Peasant*

Don-

So you believe that folks should alienate all groups including life style choices that you dont agree with?

I did not say that, and no, I don't believe that. You are trying to put words in my mouth. I am quite tolerant of many people whose lifestyles I don't necessarily agree with or would not choose for myself, and am, indeed, friendly with many whose lifestyles and personal philosophies and beliefs I do not share. But these people are not adherents to philosophies that espouse bigotry, world domination, and mass murder.

BUT—I find it hard to be tolerant toward those who hold a philosophy that embraces institutionalized bigotry, world conquest, and the systematic obliteration of entire ethnic groups and categories of fellow human beings that they are prejudiced against.

I would sooner welcome a nest of rattlesnakes into my home!

Can't you sit down with a person and focus on anything else but politics?

Of course I can! Don't be stupid!

But remember:    A person's political beliefs reflect their personal philosophy, attitudes toward others, and their sense of ethics. So it can't simply be ignored, either.

A sad state of tolerance we see here.

If you want to get a good idea of a "sad state of tolerance," take a good long look at the history and actions of the nations in which fascism held sway.

Conrad, learn some history!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 02:43 PM

Hey don I don't really think they are coming to get you....really...they aren't!

Wasn't George Bernard Shaw a Fascist? Lots of people read his work.

I have no trouble with people from alternate lifeways or planets I just dont bother myself with what they are planning to do later in the evening. As said before that is their business and they won't be doing it to you.

But who knows maybe they all run secret extermination camps....in which case....who knows....they may be out their just waiting, waiting.....

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 02:46 PM

As to the matter of the relationship between music and any kind of totalitarian political system or belief:

I recall a scene from the 1945 Hollywood bio-pic about pianist and composer Frederick Chopin (played by Cornel Wilde).

Poland, the land of Chopin's birth, was under the domination of Russia. Early in the movie, before he had to flee to Paris, Chopin is playing piano for a group of people when a group of boisterous Russian soldiers came in. Chopin stopped playing until the interruption cease. The Russian soldiers took seats, then one of them imperiously waved at Chopin to continue playing.

Chopin pushed the piano bench back, stood up, and said firmly, "I do not play for tsarist butchers!" Then he stalked out.

Because of this, he had to flee for his life, joining a large number of Polish expatriates who fled their home country because of the Russian occupation.

But he made his point.

A man of courage and integrity.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 02:48 PM

It is a matter of notoriety that the nazi German association with Volkslieder has in effect left folk arts in Germany in the back rooms of museums ever since.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 02:58 PM

"Based upon this thread thus far many simply believe that you can alienate and exclude a person from music and our community just because of political views. Sad."

Much less sad than having trash like that around, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Amergin
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 03:02 PM

What crap, Conrad....anyone who has read your threads before knows how much of a bigoted small minded jerk you really are. You come out here and pretend to preach tolerance for everyone, when in actuality you just want to stir trouble with your filth and see what happens.

Fascism may not be racist in and of itself.,...but it always seems to need a scapegoat in order to get people to accept them. Whether it be emigrants in the UK, muslims in the US, Jews in Germany, dire economic conditions like in Germany and Italy. It always seems to need to rule with fear. It is disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 03:02 PM

So the German populace on the whole have abandoned their traditional music because of the associations with nazism. That is quite sad. When will the tarnish wear off do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 03:17 PM

I love how as long as peasant can share a folk song with a Hitler Youth or BNP member, he doesn't care what they go out and do later in the evening, be it spreading hatred or Kristallnacht. Dude your priorities are really messed up.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 03:42 PM

You know, Virginia Tam, it goes even further than that.

During the 1970s, I worked as an announcer at a classical music radio station in Seattle. One afternoon, as I was sitting with my feet propped up, with a cup of coffee in my hand, listening to a Beethoven symphony (and getting paid handsomely; I loved that job!), the telephone rang.

It was an irate caller. In fact he was furious! He had a fairly think German accent, and in conversation with him (mainly his shouting at me!), I learned that he was a German Jew and had managed to escape from Germany about two steps before the storm troopers came and rounded up his family to take them to the death camps.

He was furious because I was playing "Nazi music!!"

"Nazi music!??" I said, incredulously. "But that's Beethoven!"

Beethoven, the caller informed me, was one of Hitler's favorite composers!!

It took some time to calm him down. I informed him that Beethoven had died in 1827, sixty-two years before Hitler was born (1889). Beethoven is one of the world's foremost composers, and millions and millions of people enjoy his music. If Hitler happened to be one of them, that was hardly Beethoven's fault. Or the fault of his music.

He wouldn't be mollified. He shouted that he would no longer be listening to that station.

Later in the day, I mentioned this to the program director. He shrugged his shoulders and said, "He was on the phone a couple of days ago because I played an overture from one of Wagner's operas. Hitler absolutely loved Wagner's music. He demanded that we not play Wagner anymore! If he does listen, he's going to be pretty upset, because this Saturday's Metropolitan Opera Broadcast is Wagner's Die Meistersinger!"

Sorry if this music triggered unpleasant memories for the caller. But—

Should it be banned because some homicidal maniac liked it? This fellow thought it should.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 03:49 PM

There are it seems two forces at work.

1) The music that has lasted and continues to last belongs to the world--such as it is

2) As a person and musician I would not wish to associate with people who pervert the intent of that music

If someone writes a song that has words with which I fundamentally disagee, I havw, do and will vote with my feet. That's to do with the music. Would I then want to have a beer with that person? I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 04:41 PM

I don't want to alienate fascists. I want to vapourise them.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:27 PM

Dammit Cornhole old buddy....You must not be listening to me and you're still fuckin' up here! You've had threads here before where you pass on your bullshit but manage to garner a pity-vote for yourself and people are calling for me to stop calling you a broke-dick slimebag and telling you to lick my nutsack. But on this thread you're going off like sputtering Roman candle and you can only get other nutjobs like yourself to side with you.

Ya' gotta' do a lot better..................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 07:03 PM

Personally, I think arguing about fascism on Mudcat with some knob who thinks you're weird if you don't want to have a pint with a paki-basher is going to make bugger all difference to the lives of people on the receiving end of racist violence.

I also think all the armchair philosophical, oh-so-clever, post-modern debates about the tautology of "fascism" in 2010 are totally missing the point. Relect for one miserable moment, on what is happening to real victims of racism in the real world. Walk a mile in their shoes. Yes, yes, yes, you can smugly call someone a "fascist" for being resolutely anti-racist (because being "resolute" is suddenly a symptom of fascism for today's ultra-liberals, isn't it?). But at the end of the day, what the fuck is all that about? You scored a pissy little worthless point in a shitty "debate". Bully for you. Clap, clap, clap.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 07:36 PM

People should consider Umberto Eco's views on the nature of fascism.

Well, right wing apologist twats should, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 08:22 PM

Did ANYONE bother to read artbrooks' post above?

Most everyone is ignoring the difference between racism & fascism, and 'reading between the lines' at to whether Conrad supports either one. They are also making a big leap tossing the BNP into the discussion when it was not specified....it is more racist than fascist.

I don't agree with his (Conrad's) 'suggestion' that anyone spend time going out of their way to accommodate fascists, or to seek out any music glorifying nasty political extremist politics.....and I have no idea why he bothered to start such a stupid thread (except maybe to stir things up)... sure did work, huh?

*I* know how to deal with any sign the fascists...or Nazis...or the KKK...is coming to ANY 'folk' event in any open way! If I KNOW their affiliation, I ignore them...if they try to make their politics an issue, I'll help toss them out!!.....but why would they identify themselves just in order to attend a music event?

Sheesh, folks.... condemn what is CLEAR... not just anything you assume is hidden in some off-the-wall post.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 08:34 PM

Thanks Bill D

By the way to clarify I dont think anyone should go out of their way to accommodate anyone fascists or seek out anything.

If I knew that someone was a Fascist I and came wondering if a seat was free at a group sing or session I would say yes it is no one is sitting there join in.

There would be no point in talking about politics and If he brought it up I would render my opinion of his views only when asked and that briefly.

If he wanted to show or sing or play a fascist song I would consider doing so and then determine how I felt about the construction of lyrics, of the notes, and the fit between the two. If the lyrics were offensive I might note that I did not agree with them but if they maked good rhyme and went well with the notation then I would say so.

Photographed by the correct photographer even a pile of manure can be a thing of beauty- you don't have to eat it unless you want to.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 11:02 PM

Actually, Fascism is the opposite of Communism. Ronald Reagan was told to embrace it by his handlers. Maybe that's why he rolled over on so many of his friends during the House UnAmerican Activities Commitee hearings.

    Or maybe it was because he was offered the chance to play the part of president in "The Dismantling of America." The play ran in Washington DC for eight years. I didn't like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 12:49 PM

""undesirables and defectives" such as Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the handicapped, and anyone else that the leaders took a dislike to.""

As pointed out by Don F!

Given the views expressed by a leading official of the BNP, in relation to David Cameron's son, and I quote:- "After all, it's not worth keeping them alive, is it"?

And another who said "Rape is no more important than force feeding a woman with chocolate"

I'd say that those ideals gel quite nicely with the ideals of Nazi Germany, wouldn't you?

Fascist is a mild word for what the BNP actually are, and racist is obviously true since it required legal action to stop them from excluding immigrants (especially black ones) from membership of the "Party".

By all means alienate them, and any others of the same persuasion.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 03:26 PM

Just dawned on me that the Fascists have won-
The have gotten a good number of folks here to join them in their intolerance and discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 04:07 PM

Oh puh-leeze.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 04:24 PM

Maybe you should crunch 'em up and make 'em into sandwiches?

Then, you could sell 'em to Tesco's and then...they'd get eaten by people of different colours and religions...who'd burp contentedly, as they munched and munched and munched..

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 04:27 PM

Yeah, I'm intolerant of fascists in the same way that I would be intolerant of a fourteen-foot alligator roaming free in my neighborhood.

They do happen to have an established history, and it wouldn't be very rational not to be intolerant of them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 05:45 PM

I'm intolerant of Nazis, Fascists, Ku Kluxers, Cannibals, sadists, child abusers, narrow-minded ideologues, ...........and those who can't separate a general concept from the practical application thereof.

Them alligators is usually easier to identify than all them other nuisances. If I was doing a concert (perish the thought) and I had a full house of nothing but all those types I don't like, and didn't know it, there'd be little to react to. If they all came in wearing uniforms & buttons and trying to distribute literature, there would BE no concert.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 06:19 PM

Conrad,

1) think

2) write

Try it in that order for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 06:28 PM

You got that wrong GUEST.

Should read

1. Think
2. Think again
3. Don't bother writing.

Everybody here knows what to expect from Conrad, and nobody is really interested.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 06:29 PM

That guest post was me. Forgot cookie.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 05:02 AM

If, however, you were giving a concert, and it was full of fascists concentrating hard on you, and you saw the 14 foot alligator come in at the back and they didn't, you'd try very hard to hold their attention, wouldn't you, while the 'gator got closer, and closer, and closer to them...

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 05:26 AM

Don Firth. "Yeah, I'm intolerant of fascists in the same way that I would be intolerant of a fourteen-foot alligator roaming free in my neighborhood."

One slight quibble, namely that an alligator is not responsible for its actions or for the consequences of its actions. Human beings are.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 10:08 AM

Like I said...if I knew they were fascists, the alligator would have found an empty hall.....and even given your premises, the alligator would gotten only one.....and I don't like messy halls.

(I appreciate humor, and I don't like folks like fascists when they are acting like fascists....but I WILL keep my priorities and my head straight about exactly what the issues is and is not.)

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 02:34 PM

All too true, Fred. But I have an alternative.

How about introducing the fascist and the alligator to each other?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 05:30 PM

Surely the fascist wouldn't be intolerant.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 05:35 AM

Don Firth "How about introducing the fascist and the alligator to each other?"

An excellent idea, always provided it's an anti-fascist alligator.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:17 AM

Eleven new fake profiles on Bebo, all of whom are asking to be added to my friends list.

Usual unprintable response from me!

Bebo unterested in complaints, so WHAT ELSE IS NEW?

IDs are:-
Wysiwyg Thompson [donthompsonbnp] - Picture photoshopped, me playing for nasty Nick.
Richard Hoff Bridge [richardhoffbridge] - No Picture.
Jeddy Rose [JeddyRose] - Usual picture.
Mudcat Cafe [Mudcat BNP] - Picture Unknown (to me) woman.
Fred McCormick [folkM3] - Picture BNP membership card purporting to be Fred.
Katlaughing [katlaughingbnp] - Picture supposed to be of Kat.
John Barden [JohnB4641] - Picture photoshopped, John playing with BNP ad behind.
Joan Crump - Picture of woman head unseen.
Bruce Murdoch [BruceM0544] - Head shot of man with painted face.
Virginia Tam [vivvtam] - Picture of Tam.
Richard Hoff Bridge [hoffbridge] Picture of Richard, flipped to make him a southpaw.

All those bracketted items are the Bebo usernames of the fakes. I'm taking the lot to Bebo, and proclaiming them to be fakes. They can't then say that they were unable to find them.

Step 2 will be a visit to the police, and a couple of enthusiastic journos.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:22 AM

I fell foul of html, which I absolutely don't comprehend, and lost all the IDs.

They were in the angle brackets we use to enclose bold, italic, or underline commands, and they all vanished.

Can one of our clones please recover them, or should I re-list without brackets?

Don T.

[fixed- be careful--a clone]

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 08:34 AM

I too have found, Don, that using angle-brackets except for html causes the content to vanish ~ presumably they are only programmed to respond to html instrucions on this site. So now I use one of [], {}, (), all of which seem to respond OK.

Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 09:03 AM

You are obviously right, Mike, in the case of Mudcat, but when reporting to Bebo the angle brackets are part of the username.

For that reason, and not knowing the likely outcome, I used them.

I'll know better in future LOL.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 09:22 AM

"Based upon this thread thus far many simply believe that you can alienate and exclude a person from music and our community just because of political views. Sad."

   You say "just because of political views" like it's of no more importance than ones preference for coffee over tea or draught beer over bottled, to borrow from one of your other threads. Well, political views define a person like taste preferences never could, and if you espouse repugnant political views then YOU are repugnant.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 09:36 AM

"Fred McCormick [folkM3] - Picture BNP membership card purporting to be Fred."

Don. I've only just seen this. Needless to say it's a complete con, probably posted by our old friend who used to post on this site under multiple aliases.

With the exception of Mudcat and similar message boards, I'm not into social networking and am not familiar with Bebo. How does one go about getting this picture removed?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:38 PM

""Fred McCormick [folkM3] - Picture BNP membership card purporting to be Fred."

Don. I've only just seen this. Needless to say it's a complete con, probably posted by our old friend who used to post on this site under multiple aliases.

With the exception of Mudcat and similar message boards, I'm not into social networking and am not familiar with Bebo. How does one go about getting this picture removed?""

Don't bother taking action at the moment Fred.

Earlier today I put in a suitably snotty report to Bebo, giving the whole list of IDs and demanding action.

I received an acknowledgement within an hour, saying they would deal with it, so I suggest we wait for twenty four hours, to see what, if anything, they do.

I made some pretty pointed references to a couple of enthusiastic journalists I happen to know.

You have to join the rotten site to access their report facilities, and I've yet to come across any dirct way of making contact.

Watch this space.

BTW, I was only too aware that none of the people being defamed by these clowns are actually BNP supporters, though we do know we have a couple on Mudcat.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 04:51 AM

Don,

Thanks.Let us know how you get on.

Fred

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Amergin
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 05:43 AM

I like to wipe my combat boots on fascists' faces....

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 10:32 AM

Right folks, pretty much as I expected, Bebo have reacted with speed, and the false identity of me has been removed, or to be more accurate, a search either by name or username comes back "No profile found under that name".

However, of the other nine I reported, not one has been removed. It seems you have to report in person, and only members can do so.

Call me a cynic if you will, but setting it up that way means nine more members for Bebo, who are competing with Farcebook and Shitter, among others.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 11:09 AM

That leaves me with but one option. Join, complain, and leave immediately the complaint has been resolved.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:33 PM

Seems like a plan Fred, but the bad news is that another fake profile of me appeared mid afternoon, with just one letter altered, which allowed it to slide by them.

I've demanded the blocking of the offender's ISP, but I'm not holding my breath.

Nevertheless, if these shitheads think they've won, they'd better think again.

I'm going nowhere, and I won't be silenced.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM

"I like to wipe my combat boots on fascists' faces.." Amergin

Just for the record, 'gin, but that is an extraordinarily offensive sentiment. I understand that it's hyperbolic but...

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 08:19 PM

Thanks Ebbie.

There are a good many here that seem to wish to outdo the Fascists.

Tolerance does not mean that you accept anyone's political views but rather that you concentrate on the music which should have nothing to do with politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 09:07 PM

Some things are more important than music.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 09:43 PM

But not if the poor fascist is just sitting there not bothering anyone just enjoying and sharing music. Out doing the fascists at their game you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 09:53 PM

not if the poor fascist is just sitting there not bothering anyone just enjoying and sharing music.

They tend not to, tho: the extremes of politics [fascist/communist] (& for that matter of religion [XtnEvangelist/Islamist]) have always been among those who can never relax & "just" anything; but their onsessive agendas, and how they can make whatever they are doing relate to it, is ever-present in their minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 09:54 PM

I meant 'obsessive agendas', of course, Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Amergin
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 10:03 PM

"Out doing the fascists at their game you are."

Wow....never thought Yoda was a fascist sympathiser....

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 10:21 PM

Sorry, but me shutting down fascists and fascists killing Jews just don't compare. I'm not at their own game. Bzzzzt. Game over. You lose.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 09:54 AM

""But not if the poor fascist is just sitting there not bothering anyone just enjoying and sharing music. Out doing the fascists at their game you are.""

Let's see if it is possible to drive an idea into that lump of bone between your ears, preferrably without having to apply it with a shotgun.

The BNP are trying to take over the music, morris and country dance, and the significant dates such as St George's day, in an attempt to persuade the public that they are an acceptable political alternative for voters who want a return to "British Values".

This image they are trying to project could not be further from their real agenda, which is the establishment of a Britain which will be more racist than South Africa in the apartheid days.

In short, a Nazi regime.

Your ideals of tolerance play perfectly into that agenda.

You're not by any chance a descendant of Neville Chamberlain?.......

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 10:29 AM

Don, absolutely. These people are not nice,they do not play by the normal rules of civilised behaviour, and they are not interested in polite intelligent discourse on matters political. In fact they are hell bent on turning this country into a totalitarian white dictatorship, a dictatorship which would eventually crush every last one of us. They do not deserve to be shown the degree of courtesy, tolerance and free speech, which I would normally extend to people whose views do not accord with mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 10:37 AM

Anyone who remains unconvinced of what can happen when fascism is let loose should tune into BBC Radio 4 this coming Saturday night. The one to listen out for is the Archive on Four slot at 20-00 hours. This week's programme is called Hate Against Hope and it's about the racist attacks which far right groups made against London immigrants in the 19670s/80s.

Here's the programme blurb.

"Alan Dein hears how London's East End Bangladeshi community forged new alliances to oppose racism in the 1970s and 80s.

"The East End had been a centre of racial struggle and opposition since the 1930s, when Oswald Mosely's Blackshirts had paraded through the then largely Jewish streets around Brick Lane. By the 1970s a new wave of predominantly Bangladeshi immigrants faced racism again from the National Front and its sympathisers.

"As provocation and attacks increased, this community made new alliances with local anti-fascist activists, culminating in large-scale movements such as Rock Against Racism. Once again Brick Lane and the streets beyond became a battleground."

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 10:40 AM

If you run a folk venue or group and put up a sign "all those holding views that we do not like stay out"

You are simply being intolerant. You hang that sign out by talking about politics in the group or event and by broadcasting a commonly held political position.

You could do the same against alternative lifestyles, religions, economic classes. It would be the same thing. The end result would be that it would limit access to and support for the music and would make survival of the music more difficult in the long run.

When you let an organization or the folk keep others out you are unnecessarirly making the survival of the music more difficult.

If those you let in keep their hands and political views to themselves you can have a great group of people singing the songs and keeping traditions alive. Participation together can also ease tensions and even make conversion possible. Keeping people appart just because they do something else in other aspects of their lives and are able to keep those aspects of their lives out of the event or group activity is wrong.

This does not mean that one has to give up one's hatred of a political view, religious view, or lifeway. It just means that you put those views away when meeting socially focusing on a common interest. Just take your politics out of the folk forum. It will better if you do so and that includes projecting your intolerance of well behaved peaceful people before they have a chance to come in.

If a gathering of folkies projects any sort of political aura that is as big or bigger than the aura of the music they discourage others and keep the traditions from being preserved and expanded.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 11:03 AM

"It just means that you put those views away when meeting socially focusing on a common interest. Just take your politics out of the folk forum."

Sorry, can't get the Folk Against Fascism stickers off my guitar cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 11:59 AM

Peasant, do you really imagine a scenerio, either in the U.K. or the U.S., in which anyone stands at the door of a concert, or sing-around or open mike session, stops each person at the door, and asks them to spell out their political views? Nobody can read minds. If the person at the door identifies a fascist, it is because the individual has become known for visibly promoting fascism. Do you, honest to God, expect someone in charge to say "come on in; spew lyrics of venemous hatred and racism; use the opportunity to promote the idea that your values are in line with the finest deep traditions of our people. After you perform, we'll have a polite discussion on the esthetics of your melodies, and whether your lines scan."

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 12:18 PM

No but I have been at folk concerts and events where before during and at the end of sets performers and or organizers spew political rhetoric which no one came to hear and when that happens people who have opposing personal views that they keep to themselves dont want to be there and probably won't come back and probably will influence others to stay away.

I would not mind at all if the politics was in the music. I just dont need the mini manefestos that come into introductions and closing remarks.

We respect the views of organizers and performers but making their events and performers into what are perceived to be political rallys is not helpful or appropriate. They can do that at other types of events.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 05:59 PM

""If you run a folk venue or group and put up a sign "all those holding views that we do not like stay out"""

God almighty, you are slow, aren't you.

I do not ask the political views of attenders of any venue I run, and as long as they don't start trouble, all are welcome.

What is being talked about here is the venues they are running, which would be dangerous places for non white music fans.

We are talking about the St Georges day festivals which they are promoting to forward their racist message of a "White Britain".

What we are talking about is their production company "Great White Records", which is stealing copyright material, and recording it to give the impression that they are supported by talented and well respected Folk Singers.

You would like to be tolerant, and accept that?

Go Ahead! But first take a look at their website, and get some vestige of an idea of what you are talking about.

Then have a look at some of the links in other Mudcat threads, dealing with their criminal records, their attitude to black and Asian Brits, and pay particular attention to the views of one of their senior figures, on the subject of rape.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:06 PM

By the way Conrad, a look at one of their concerts would open your eyes to the fact that the skinhead, string vested tattooed thugs strutting about the place, are of a breed that you have never seen, and will never see at a folk club or folk festival.

What they are running is something very different.

Wake up and see what is going on around you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 08:37 PM

skinheads are as entitled to sing a folk song or organize a festival as you are - be thankful that anyone is taking an interest.

yes if they arent bothering anyone at the moment no problem

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 10:40 PM

Your "at the moment" is rather disingenuous*, isn't it, Conrad? They are as capable of biding their time as anyone else; but make no secret of their ultimate intentions ~ see Wyziwig's post 2&3 above.

* ··· unless, that is, you yourself have an 'agenda'?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 10:48 AM

I have a feeling that this peasant, is one of our erstwhile guests, now become a member, the more effectively to further the BNP message.

NO CHANCE BUDDY!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 11:09 AM

Yeah, me too. Backfired though, didn't it. Now, where's a fascist to alientate....

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 11:16 AM

Yes they are all biding their time lurking in the shadows waiting to pounce on you at any time, the fascists, probably in your thinking the lesbians, communists, gays who knows who else.

Get over it the world is a diverse place. I have known skinheads and went to school with a few. Almost all are utterly harmless.

Seems to me that folkies really dont want anyone but approved members of their tight knit community sharing the music. Sad.

Then in the same breath we have performers telling us that they don't make enough money and can barely survive and need grants. I guess they will continue to be in need until the community finds tolerance and lets all well behaved individuals take part.

Conrd

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 11:42 AM

Peasant, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Come to the area where I live and see what's happening - an area that has elected one of two fascist MEP's, mainly because of apathy amongst the electorate. Discover what a bunch of criminal thugs the BNP is, how ethnic minorities are attacked and harrassed, how they want women to give up work to solve unemployment in the UK, how they beat up gays, put shit through people's letter boxes and...I could go on and on. Some of us are constant and active campaigners against the fascists so we're sure as hell not going to let them get their hands on our music. Folk music does not exist in a vacuum - it has to be a part of real life, and real life here is about beating the fascists. The fascists don't have, and never have had, any place in Britain, as Moseley found out, and their attempts to hijack British folk music are being actively repulsed by groups like Folk Against Fascism.

You are woefully ignorant about what is happening in Britain and about the British folk scene. Before sound off, find out what it is you're talking about. Until then just stop spouting such a load of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 12:06 PM

Here, to enlighten your ignorance, is an excerpt from a recent email I received from the anti-fascist group, Hope Not Hate, regarding the BNP's policy towards women:

"One BNP Organiser recently said "Rape is simply sex. Women enjoy sex, so rape cannot be such a terrible physical ordeal". Another leading BNP officer said that the answer to the current recession was for women to give up work. A BNP councillor in Stoke-on-Trent admitted "We want power, we want influence and we want progress - and if there's a little bit of misery, we'll play on that". And two BNP councillors have been convicted of assaulting their partners whilst in office but the BNP refused to expel them."

Now, how could I look my wife or my daughters in the eye if I ever sat down to share my music with people like that? You may be misanthropic or short-sighted enough to do so, but not me. Not ever. Not in any circumstances. Does that make the position clear?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Amergin
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 12:08 PM

Actually, the #1 Fascist has been around for many years, always comes around to stir up shit for a while then he leaves.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 01:11 PM

I don't think anyone can steal your music! But no matter what the reason for doing it if more people play the music the greater chance the music has of survival.

Again one does not have to agree with the politics but you should not worry about who enjoys your music.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 04:01 PM

""One BNP Organiser recently said "Rape is simply sex. Women enjoy sex, so rape cannot be such a terrible physical ordeal"".

There was another sentence to that statement that beggars belief:-

"Rape is simply sex. Women enjoy sex, so rape cannot be such a terrible physical ordeal". It's no worse than force feeding a woman chocolate"

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

""Again one does not have to agree with the politics but you should not worry about who enjoys your music.""

We don't give a shit about them enjoying any music. What we are fighting against is their use of the music and the festivals to con the more gullible into supporting their aims.

Those aims consist of a totalitarian Britain, with blacks, gays, disabled, mentally ill, and anyone else they don't like removed.

Now do you get it Dickhead?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 07:04 PM

Bothers me that at their rally they encouraged an 11 or 12 year old girl to burn a golliwog doll while chanting some rubbish about its being a murderer and rapist and such.

At least black British comediennes have a tolerant attitude to the BNP. Heard a young woman on some BEEB Radio 4 comedy say she is all for the BNP repatriation policy. She would volunteer in a minute. Go visit family for a few months paid for by the BNP and come back to UK for a while and then do it again. Free holidays!

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: LadyJean
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 11:26 PM

I am surprised that no one has mentioned that Woody Guthrie decorated his guitar with the sentiment "This Machine Kills Facists".

I don't know about the BNP, but, some years ago, I got a nasty email from a Neo Nazi who was trolling a yahoo group I belonged to. I responded by threatening to shoot him. (An empty threat, I have never fired a gun and have no intention of ever doing so.) The next email he sent was very appologetic. I think Facists may like being alienated.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 07:29 AM

Great example- Woody gets up there with his guitar and immediately alienates people who otherwise would have joined the folk music community. When you put politics out front you keep people away. They might have been fascists but might have also been people not so interested in political manefestos.They might even like songs about politics but not the feel that they are at a political rally first and a folk concert second.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Helen Butcher
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 09:20 AM

Well said *#1 PEASANT*

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 10:00 AM

Interesting that facebook Helen Butcher is linked to so many BNP fakebook IDs. And that Conrad is mentioned in some of the wall postings. Someone better clean up his act on the Facebook fakes. The net is closing in.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 11:20 AM

Peasant/Helen Butcher. Have you any idea how many people got into folk music because of Woody Guthrie? I can tell you it was far more than were ever alienated by his anti-fascism and his Communism and his belief that all human beings were created equal, irrespective of race or colour or religion. I'm talking about good solid socialists and freethinkers and anti-racists. People I would be proud to walk in the footsteps of, not the cowardly wretches and supposed "master race" members of the far right.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 11:57 AM

Yes! No one would dispute the importance of Woody Guthre in the spreading of the folk however, how many did he not reach by hanging political manifestos all over himself? Of course he lost the entire other side.

We simply can't afford to take the entire potential audience and toss away any of it!

Keep the politics in the lyrics in the music and in your heart and mind but dont give politics, religion, liberation, alternative lifeways the center stage.

I respect much more the folk singer who can sing both sides of an argument than I do the one who is biased and keeps to the one side.

Pete Seeger and Joe Hickerson come to mind as performers who often would bring both sides to a music session. My favorite lp example- the blue and the grey both sides on one record. So much richer than taking sides and using the musical stage to project your manefesto.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 12:02 PM

Conrad, if you think that I or any singer I know would waste our talents presenting the far right side of the argument, then you are sadly mistaken.

As Ewan MacColl put it, "Until not one fascist is left on this earth". Not until then would I even wipe my backside on far right points of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 12:42 PM

The problem with keeping politics off the stage is this. If we benignly smile upon those who spread hate, they gain in credence and power. It is precisely on the stage where one should take a stand so they may know, we will not let hate gain the day.

Who knew in the early days of Hitler Youth what nightmare would come to pass? Only a very few vociferous ones saw how wrong it was. They were quickly silenced. No one could have predicted the final horrendous outcome.

I am not supporting like for like behaviour. No violence required. I wouldn't sink to that level. As Christ overturned the tables of the money lenders because they fouled His Father's House, then likewise we should reject hate mongers for befouling humanity.

If it means putting it on posters and wearing tshirts at concerts and sessions, then so be it. Better they should know before they attend that their views are not supported by the event organisers, the performers and most of the audience.

I would hope that maybe they might rethink their views. But then I am a Pollyanna at heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: LadyJean
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 10:37 PM

In 1997 the city of Pittsburgh let the local Ku Klux Klan stand on the steps of the City County building and spout all manner of foulness. (I have never in my life heard quite so many obscenities.) A very large local crowd responded in kind, cursing almost as fluently, and offering to do interesting things to the guys in the hoods.
End result of this, aside from a very large bill for the city to keep the Klan idiots from being killed, was that one of the men came to understand how loathesome the Klan's philosophies were and quit.
I'm not sure what kind of point this makes, but it makes one.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 02:32 AM

LadyJean

What cost to the City? For the sake of that one who turned away from the KKK, it was worth it. Good on the public for standing against a racist group. For the sake of the public who stood by and watched or learned of it second hand, it was worth it.

However, obscenity and threats were not needed. If the KKK wanted to pillory itself, then all that was needed was baskets of rotten fruit and veg for the public to express its opinion.

Reminds me of disclaimer some comedian used before his act...

The establishment has asked me to tell you, "No throwing of fruit onto the stage during the performance!" I am telling you in particular, "No throwing of canned fruit on the stage during MY performance!"

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 06:32 AM

"We simply can't afford to take the entire potential audience and toss away any of it!"

Nope - only the fascist element. Just been listening to Dick Gaughan CD - that's political folk music for you, especially his version of Leon Rossellson's World Turned Upside Down. That song would suit Peasant - he's upside down with his head in the sand and his arse in the air, with a large 'Kick Me' sign on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 08:38 AM

Should you alienate Fascists? In my opinion, most definitely! But a much, much more important question is why are Fascists dangerous? And, sadly, there appear to be many people in the world who still do not know the answer to that question. I'm sure that one could up with several answers - but the most important one is connected with the way that Fascists demonise people who are different to themselves - a tendency that has repeatedly led to some of the foulest crimes in history.

A new, and terrifying, book has recently appeared (so new that I've only had time to skim it). It's called:

'Worse Than War: Genocide, Eliminationism. and the Ongoing Assault on Humanity' by Daniel Jonah Gold hagen (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Worse-Than-War-Genocide-Eliminationism/dp/1586487698).

From what I've gathered, so far, this work suggests that, throughout history, it's been depressingly easy to persuade populations to turn on and murder their neighbours. Some democracies (sadly, not all) at least try to curb such impulses - Fascist governments, on the other hand, have shown no such restraint.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 09:20 AM

I'll look out for that, Shimrod.

Peasant, whatever goes on in the folk scene in the USA, don't presume to tell us how to behave here in the UK. You are woefully ignorant of the history and traditions of this country, how they are reflected in our music and how they continues today. Instead of wallowing in the peurile world of fakelore that you have created, which bears more resemblance to a game of Dungeosn and Dragons than to actual reality, why not discover the long, long history of political radicalism and dissent in the UK, from The Peasants' Revolt and before, through to the massive upheaval of the English Civil War, with the radical ideas of the Levellers and Diggers, on to the Luddites, the Peterloo Massacre, the anti-fascist action of the 1930s, CND, the Grosvenor Square protests, the Miners' Strike, the Poll Tax Protests and right on up to the present day?

When you have done that (reading list available on request), then what you have to say may be taken a little more seriously. Until then get out of our faces and grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:22 AM

I presume peasant/conrad is busily making more fake BNP supporters on Facebook using any new mudcat IDs that show up in this thread.

He keeps spinning out his net with ever more baiting threads. And we poor silly cod sods keep getting caught in it, me included.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:54 AM

Sorry about spelling mistakes - not got me good eyes in.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:24 AM

""That song would suit Peasant - he's upside down with his head in the sand and his arse in the air, with a large 'Kick Me' sign on it.""

Don't knock it Leveller.

While he's in that position, we can at least be sure through which aperture he is talking.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 09:48 PM

Grosvenor Square protests- I was living in london then....so was Bill Clinton or nearby...

Just listened to the Miner's strike bbc piece a few days ago....yes lovely things unions. Totally ruined our car industry, helped to ruin the coal industry in the UK and who knows what would have remained viaable in the Uk were it not for thatcher. But there you are. Had folkies remained neutral there would always be a party in power that could support them. But not when you start putting political manefestos and hatred of others with opposing views ahead of the music.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,stringsinger
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 12:41 PM

Don't alienate the person, alienate the ideology. Refuse to accept it.
Dialogue whenever and however possible.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:14 PM

Now that is a good response stringsinger. Exactly. One of the easiest ways to bring about change is by dialog- if people believe they are not welcome as in they have to cross a big "folksingers against fascism" banner you will never have a chance to interact.
BRAVO! FRANK

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:26 PM

""One of the easiest ways to bring about change is by dialog- if people believe they are not welcome as in they have to cross a big "folksingers against fascism" banner you will never have a chance to interact.""

Just pray you never find yourself in the position of trying to interact with these guys, especially if you are trying to persuade them to change their attitudes.

They usually interact with baseball bats, and bricks.

Why don't you wake up, or failing that shut up.

You obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about (judging by your other threads) on any subject.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:40 PM

The voice of reason!!........:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 03:22 PM

Do these look like the faces of reason?    CLICKY.

How about these lads?    CLICKY #2.

A little calm discussion with these fellows?    CLICKY #3.

Maybe here?    CLICKY #4

Some may be too young to remember, but we've had to deal with these people before.    CLICKY #5 and CLICKY #6.

And if you disagree with what they have in mind, or if you happen to be the wrong color, or if you belong to the wrong religion, or if you associate with "the wrong people," or if you are physically or mentally handicapped in some way, or you happen to have been born with the wrong genes—or if someone in the regime just doesn't happen to like you—this is what can happen to you—and yours.    CLICKY #7.

No. We've been there before. I don't think we want to go there again.

Don Firth

P. S. Don't think these neo-fascists should be taken seriously? Well, early on, Adolf Hitler wasn't taken seriously either.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 03:40 PM

Sorry Don....I've looked and looked, but I just can't seem to pick you out :0(

Are you the one with the guitar?   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 03:46 PM

Stuff it, Ake. Considering your prejudices against certain classes of people, you're a fine one to try to make snide remarks on this subject.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 07:59 PM

I suspect that my Dachshund is a closet Fascist. I know that he harbors ambitions to dominate the world. I've seen him practicing the straight-arm salute when he thought I wasn't looking.

So I walked into the room today, shook my finger at him, and yelled, "You don't fool me, you rotten little Fascist cur!"

He jumped up in rage, bit my ankle, and then peed on my shoes!

You just can't trust them at all, can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 10:29 PM

Pardon the thread drift, but this is long overdue.

Ake, you seem to be quite confused about the differences between "liberal" and "fascist" as political philosophies. Using an expression such as the oxymoronic "liberal fascist" as an epithet is a meaningless attempt at an insult and displays the depth of your ignorance regarding political science, not to mention history as well. Here's a little primer for you.

Main Entry: lib•er•al
Function: adjective
1 : marked by generosity
2 : broad-minded, especially not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms
3 a : of, favoring, or based upon the principles of liberalism; b capitalized of or constituting a political party advocating or associated with the principles of political liberalism; especially : of or constituting a political party in the United Kingdom associated with ideals of individual, especially economic, freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives

Main Entry: liberal
Function: noun
Date: 1820
a person who is liberal: as a : one who is open-minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways b capitalized : a member or supporter of a liberal political party c : an advocate or adherent of liberalism especially in individual rights

####

Main Entry: fas•cism
Function: noun
Date: 1921
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

Further:

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom") is the belief in the importance of liberty and equal rights.[ Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but most liberals support such fundamental ideas as constitutions, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, free trade, secular society, and the market economy. These ideas are often accepted even among political groups that do not openly profess a liberal ideological orientation. Liberalism encompasses several intellectual trends and traditions, but the dominant variants are classical liberalism, which became popular in the 18th century, and social liberalism, which became popular in the 20th century.

####

Liberalism first became a powerful force in the Age of Enlightenment, rejecting several foundational assumptions that dominated most earlier theories of government, such as hereditary status, established religion, absolute monarchy, and the Divine Right of Kings. Early liberal thinkers such as John Locke, who is often regarded as the founder of liberalism as a distinct philosophical tradition, employed the concept of natural rights and the social contract to argue that the rule of law should replace autocratic government, that rulers were subject to the consent of the governed, and that private individuals had a fundamental right to life, liberty, and property.

####

Roger Griffin, political theorist, Oxford Brooks University, England, writes:

[Fascism is] a genuinely revolutionary, trans-class form of anti-liberal, and in the last analysis, anti-conservative nationalism. As such it is an ideology deeply bound up with modernization and modernity, one which has assumed a considerable variety of external forms to adapt itself to the particular historical and national context in which it appears, and has drawn a wide range of cultural and intellectual currents, both left and right, anti-modern and pro-modern, to articulate itself as a body of ideas, slogans, and doctrine. In the inter-war period it manifested itself primarily in the form of an elite-led "armed party" which attempted, mostly unsuccessfully, to generate a populist mass movement through a liturgical style of politics and a programme of radical policies which promised to overcome a threat posed by international socialism, to end the degeneration affecting the nation under liberalism, and to bring about a radical renewal of its social, political and cultural life as part of what was widely imagined to be the new era being inaugurated in Western civilization. The core mobilizing myth of fascism which conditions its ideology, propaganda, style of politics and actions is the vision of the nation's imminent rebirth from decadence.

Robert O. Paxton, American historian, Columbia University, New York, writes that fascism is:

. . . a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.

Don't bother to thank me, Ake, I am only too happy to help. But DO try to keep them straight, okay?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 11:07 PM

It's very easy to be fooled by words. People (specially politicians) constantly misuse them in order to push some agenda they have in mind. If you want to find out who is a "fascist", you must look at how they behave toward others, what their implicit desires and intentions are, that sort of thing. You must watch and see how they use and abuse power. They may not fit your rigorous definition of the word "fascist" as lifted from the dictionary....but they may still be essentially fascist anyway.

And that's up to each one of us to decide.

I know what "fascist" means to me. It might mean something different to you. If it did, that wouldn't surprise me a bit...I know that people give words meanings according to their own present desires, not due to some ultimate standard of truth.

If your definition of "fascism" is a bit different from mine...fine...everybody's definition is probably a bit different, and no one here is the final authority on which is the best definition...nor is any dictionary. It's all just somebody's opinion, driven by the culture and political mythology they grew up in, the "good and evil" stereotypes they choose to obsess about, the things they're heard from others, and the ax they are presently grinding.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 02:38 AM

You're doing it again, Little Hawk.

There is a bit of wiggle room in some words, and the word "fascist" is tossed around quite—ahem—liberally by those who don't really know what it means beyond "I disagree with you." But to political scientists, "liberal" and "fascist" are distinct and mutually exclusive schools of thought.

And "liberal fascist" IS an oxymoron, i.e., a self-contradictory expression.

If you're into the Alice in Wonderland idea that "words mean what I say they mean" rather than the definitions that most people who are knowledgeable in a particular field use, then language itself becomes little more that gibberish and meaningful communication becomes impossible.

I'll take a good Webster's any day, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:08 AM

Perhaps I need to ammend my words.

The inverted commas are meant to signify illiberal purporting to be liberal.....the people they refer to, do not change.

These people (you know who you are) do liberal ideology a great deal of harm. They basically suffer from a disease indemic to a large section of the left....hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:11 AM

Don, I agree that the clarity is overdue. However, "liberal" has a different meaning in economic analysis which I am glad you eschew but "fascism" has other meanings in political analysis, and they are I think in many cases even narrower than the explanations you adopt, and in that latter respect I would I think go further than you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:18 AM

People of this ilk, are often referred to as thought police....hence the fascist tag.

This forum contains numerous examples, complete with furry jackboots!

Don is simply a disgusting bully, another trait endemic on this forum.

Why do I hang around?.....because there are a handful of the best and most insightful people I have ever met, between these pages......and I'm interested to see if light ever penetrates into the darker corners.....maybe aye, maybe naw, maybe hee haw!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:34 AM

Liberalism can rather easily become a form of fascism if the thought police are given too much rein.

When people are attacked for their political or social views and forced or coersed into following the party line.

When freedom of speech and thought are proscribed, and people painted as morally bad for holding differing views.

This is exactly what happens here on many subjects, if one does not toe the "liberal" line, one is rarely opposed by reasoned argument, but rather by a torrent of personal abuse

Liberal or illiberal? Fascist or democratic?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 05:16 AM

"if people believe they are not welcome as in they have to cross a big "folksingers against fascism" banner you will never have a chance to interact."

First of all, the name of the organisation is "folk against fascism" - and it was formed because of the specific political agenda of the BNP to co-opt folk CULTURE - music, dance, song, customs and traditions - into their little right-wing package of Englishness.

If people who have recorded music do NOT want that music sold and marketed in any way as benefiting or representing a political party which they find abhorrent, they have a right to say so. If people take part in traditional customs, or morris dancing, or ceilidh dancing, or informal sessions, and they do not want these things branded, by extension, as representations of a far-right ideology, they have the right to say so.

I am far more concerned about losing our folk culture to the manipulative influences of the far right than I am about offending a few fascists. If someone self-defines as a fascist, I am not particularly interested in interacting with him, or in fact with apologists for fascists. If you want to have tea parties with fascists in Maryland or wherever, off you go. But in the UK, FAF was a specific response to a specific set of problems. Some people will agree with it and some won't, but I am far more concerned with engaging the politically ambiguous or "apolitical" members of the folk community, and getting them to understand what FAF is all about, than I am in arguing with fascists. Life's too short.

Right - off to a FAF meeting. Hoefully see many of you on 2 May at the South Bank Centre for the FAF Village Fete.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 07:50 AM

Jesus Ruth.....We, the Socialists and Commies, were only too happy to Co-opt and re-form folk music in our image.

Why the double standards?.....These double standards are much more dangerous than Mr Griffin, or any other politician.

They perform exactly the same political function as the "race card", or the "religion card", they divide society into them and us.
We should always measure our opinions with reason, not political dogma.

Frank Hamilton is correct and his words remind me of the parable of the "Sun and the North Wind"

They had a disagreement over who was the most powerful.
They saw a traveller on the road and agreed that the one who could remove the travellers cloak would be the most powerful.

The North wind blew with all his might, threw hail and snow at the traveller but the man drew his cloak ever more tightly around him until the North Wind could blow no more.
The Sun sent down a pleasant warming ray on the traveller, who within minutes sat down at the roadside, removed his cloak, laid it beneath his head and fell asleep.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:11 AM

That is complete bolleaux, Ake. Many US writers and performers, and many UK writers and performers of the revival wrote the songs they wished to write, and performed the songs they wished to perform, but at least in the UK they were largely careful to analyse the descent of folk music to see whether "industrial folk" did in fact exist. The ethos was of analysis of folk music, not distortion.

The BNP seek to corrupt its nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:30 AM

One thought some may be missing is that tolerating others and keeping politics in the background so that all will feel they can participate does not require acceptance of the theories or actions of individuals or groups. I object to coming to events and hearing political manefestos before I can hear the music for which I came. Yes songs are historically sung at political rallies. I do not attend political rallies. That is why when I go to hear folk music I don't want some lecture on politics other than as a backgrounder for the history of the song. I think putting politics in the background will help bring more people in and if the audience does also refrain from the political rally mentality we can broaden the audience for folk music as a whole rather than turning anyone off with political manefestos that are often given the stage.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:48 AM

So basically, Peasant, you don't want to alienate fascists but you do want to alienate anyone with a political agenda? To my mind that considerably narrows the audience and the performer base rather than widening it. I'd prefer to keep the status quo.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 09:21 AM

I've never heard a song by "Yes" at a political rally. Isn't Rick Wakeman a bit passee?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 09:45 AM

You have it wrong!

If a performer introduces their music with a political manefesto, political speech, at a music event then that is inappropriate.

If they sing as song with political content and without asking for support for the cause simply explains the context that is fine.

If a song has political content that is fine

If a performer has a political adjenda but does not inflict it on a crowd there primairly for music that is good too.

If I go to a music event I feel that appart from song content which can be of any political persuasion I do not want to have it turn out to be a platform to push a political line.

There is a difference.

I have been to some performances where it took ten minutes to sit through a political manefesto before and inbetween each song. The ones when they tell you to support xyz politico or xyz cause.

Songs can be about anything and are good no matter what they have in the lyrics.

They then are in the realm of art

Now if the performer goes to a political rally they can spout their politics and sing their songs as well.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 09:54 AM

The BNP espouses politics of hate. Politics of hate must be challenged, and artists and participants of the folk genre have every right to respond to the subvesrion of their folk activity by saying "Not in my name." This is what Folk Against Fascism is about. If our resident fascists and fascist apologists are uncomfortable with this, I'm afraid I won't be losing any sleep over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: frogprince
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 10:05 AM

"Songs can be about anything and are good no matter what they have in the lyrics."

Okay; got a nice rap lyric for your:

Gonna rape your mamma, hump your sister
wear my dick down to a blister
Good God, muthafucka, kill a cop.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 10:06 AM

Fine
You can have a Folk Against Fascism political rally and play music

but

don't turn a folk venue, limited as they are into a political platform. It is just not appropriate.

You may sing political songs as can anyone

If you feel this restrictive remember I would also deny the Fascists the use of a folk music venue for what is a political speech with songs attached.

There are plenty of political forums you can take you message to. I don't go to political forums. When I go to musical events I want music not someones political manefesto.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 10:41 AM

Nope. It's you who have it wrong. I'll sing what I damn well like at whatever venue I choose and introduce it in whatever way I feel is appropriate. You're unlikely to be there but, if you are, tough - political comment is an integral part of folk music and if you don't like it, pop out for a beer. That's what I'd do if someone introduced a fascist theme - then I'd tell the person afterwards exactly what I thought of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 11:29 AM

Bands, promoters and venues choose to brand their events Folk Against Fascism gigs, or not. You are free to attend those gigs, or not. If you do not like an artist injecting politics into their music or into the patter that goes between songs, don't go to see that artist; don't buy their records. But it isn't up to you to tell them not to do it, anymore than it is up to an artist or promoter to tell you that you must attend their gigs or buy their records. Simples.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 11:42 AM

I don't think the question is about whether you should alienate fascists so much is whether you can, and maybe a bit about how it might be done.

Feel free to play Savior on your own time. If it's audience time, this audience member is likely going to think it's a falsely pious bit of public ego self-massaging.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 11:44 AM

""Jesus Ruth.....We, the Socialists and Commies, were only too happy to Co-opt and re-form folk music in our image.

Why the double standards?.....These double standards are much more dangerous than Mr Griffin, or any other politician.""

You re-formed it to fight against fascism, or at least the others in your movements who had a little sense did.

You did not use it as a stepping stone to get rid of black, or Asian, or Disabled people.

THAT, for the umpteenth time IS THE DIFFERENCE.

If you can't understand, get out of the bloody way, and et those who can get on with it.

You are a pain in the arse most of the time Ake, but never more so than when espousing a completely untenable argument.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 11:51 AM

""I object to coming to events and hearing political manefestos before I can hear the music for which I came. Yes songs are historically sung at political rallies. I do not attend political rallies.""

You have no idea how much pleasure it gives me to hear that.

Now I can be sure I will find at least one less BNP apologist at the next FAF gig.

It has obviously passed right over your head Conrad, but the purpose of the FAF is to oppose fascists, and racists, when they try to use folk music to further their vile agenda.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 11:59 AM

Woodie Guthrie had a somewhat similar agenda, and it didn't hurt folk music one bit. Allowing it to be associated with the intention to get rid of Black, Asian, Roma, and Disabled citizens of this country (and in due course, Jews, jazz musicians, and even folkies) will IMHO, destroy it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 12:08 PM

If you keep your folk against fascism rally's out of general music oriented venues or music oriented forums like this one then fine. Feel free to oppose fascism whenever you wish in a political setting.

I do not and will not ever apologize for fascists however I will suggest, not tell, folk musicians that they should always tolerate music and those with differing political beliefs.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 01:46 PM

Just came back aboard.

Amazing!! You, Ake, are the one who wants to restrict the freedom of a specific class of people and generally put them in the same catagory as lepers, and I'm
Did I say "amazing?" Yes, I believe I did.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 01:47 PM

Conrad: thanks all the same, but FAF needs neither your approval nor your permission to programme gigs in mainstream music venues and we will continue to do so. People running their own FAF gigs, and bands, will also hold those gigs wherever they choose. You are, of course, free to stay away. But as we've nearly sold out the Southbank Centre's Queen Elizabeth Hall in less than a week, it looks like there are a fair few people who are happy to share our message.

Goodbye.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 01:53 PM

Inadvertently hit "Submit Message" prematurely, before completing HTML code. It should read

Just came back aboard.

Amazing!! You, Ake, are the one who wants to restrict the freedom of a specific class of people and generally put them in the same catagory as lepers, and I'm the "disgusting bully?"

Did I say "amazing?" Yes, I believe I did.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 02:28 PM

Have fun with your political rally s. I would need a plane ticket anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 02:36 PM

Don....I dont think you are a bully.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 03:43 PM

"You re-formed it to fight against fascism, or at least the others in your movements who had a little sense did"

You're not often right Don, but I'm afraid you're wrong again.
The folkies of the revival in the UK, co opted the music to fight Capitalism and all the evils that it spawns.....the exploitation of workers, blacks,Vietnamese citizens, and people like you, who were and still are, paid up members of a stinking manipulative and morally corrosive economic and social system.

Now that was something worth fighting for.......Folk against Fascism...dont make me fuckin' laugh, Jeri was right , just massaging your egos....why dont you find a real cause, do you think any real fascists give two fucks for what a couple of hundred geriatric folkies think?

Try to drag yourself back into the real world, the Fascists that Woody wanted to kill were a danger....and supported by the UK and US while they were keeping the Commies in check....they were easy to define, they wore the uniform and the badges, they goose stepped and sported Charlie Chaplin moustaches and were virulently anti -Communist

Your "Fascists" wear business suits with beer bellies hanging over the waistband just like you and the guy next door.
They have opinions, bigotries, prejudices, just like you and the guy next door.
Sad deluded bastards, just like you and the guy next door
In fact, to all intents and purposes they ARE you and the guy next door!

You and your ilk are no revolutionaries like Woody or his comrades, you're not even freedom fighters...you're just sad old reactionaries.....Don T Quixote....tilting at windmills!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:08 PM

Just a siggestion, Ake, to avoid confusion. If you would distinguish between "Don T." and "Don F.," it would help to know who you are talking to or about.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:26 PM

Don F...I don't think you are a bully.
I think you are a decent reasonable guy who sometimes gets a little overwrought...like most of us!
I think you are 100% sincere in what you post, and I'm sorry we have "fallen out".

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:37 PM

Using music for a political cause is traditional

However, it does not always serve the music or tradition to continually divide the potential audience and send one par away.

One of the reasons spend time with folk music is that they would rather not go to political rallys and escape the media politics once in a while.

Have you political rally play whatever music you want but dont use the term folk music to describe what is essentially a political event.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 05:10 PM

Me too, Ake. I think if we were face to face over a couple of brews, we could more easily express our viewpoints and, if not eventually come to agree, at least not wind up flinging insults at each other.

####

*#1 PEASANT*, many political songs spring from the folk (indeed, that's the source of most of them, for obvious reasons), and to try to ban them from folk venues would be about like trying to ban a whole category of songs, such as sea chanteys because someone prone to sea-sickness might feel queasy at the very thought of going to sea, or songs of unrequited love because someone might have had a painful romantic experience and doesn't want to be reminded of it.

I rarely sing politically oriented songs myself, but there are a couple I do sing because they make a point that should be heard, and if there are certain people who are offended by them, I don't care if they are offended or not. If my singing of them makes them uncomfortable, then good! They should be made to feel uncomfortable.

It has not reduced my audiences or my income from singing to any noticeable extent. If anything, it has increased both.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 06:07 PM

The Cold War between myself and the Dachshund continues. "Filthy fascist violence-monger!" I think, as I watch him chewing aggressively on his rawhide chewbone.

"Stinking leftist appeasement freak!" he growls, as he watches me reading my book on Buddhist philosophy.

It's getting tense around here, I tell you. Tense. We are both becoming quite alienated.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 06:14 PM

Mr. Firth

For the nth time and they ask me why I repeat myself$$$#$#$%%%$^%$#$
I AM ABSOLUTELY OPPOSED TO BANNING POLITICAL FOLK SONGS

ABSOLUTELY

You should be able to sing any song no matter what it is about, however, when a significant part of the time on stage is spent not explaining the song but preaching the political message then you have transformed a perfectly good concert into a politically rally.

Now that is wrong.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 07:10 PM

Okay, Conrad, then on that, we are in agreement. I don't go to a folk concert, or any kind of concert, to hear a political harrang. But if the singer feels impelled to include a few songs of a political nature, that doesn't bother me.

Pete Seeger was thought to be a very political singer, but I've heard him, live, in a number of concerts, and he rarely included more that two or three political songs, and even then, he put them into historical context.

And--there are political songs and political songs. Anti-war songs, such as Mrs. McGrath, Johnnie, I Hardly Knew Ye, and The Band Played Waltzing Matilda anger some people of the more conservative persuasion these days, but as far as I'm concerned, that's as it should be.

Is Lilli Berlero a political song? Or The Vicar of Bray? Or The D-Day Dodgers? They certainly were at one time.

I'm not going to censor the songs I sing because they might offend someone (short of simple good taste, i.e., not singing bawdy songs in front of young children, for example). And I don't think anyone else should either. If I don't like the songs someone sings, I won't go to listen to them. And they have the same right if they don't like the songs I sing. There are enough differences in political beliefs around that I don't believe either of us will suffer greatly from lack of audiences.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 07:41 PM

Sounds good to me Don. Seeger would at times very successfully play the songs of both sides of an issue with the historical framework. When we primarily treat songs as art more people can come together to listen to them.

The way to react to a political song is by thinking about the melody and the lyrics the art of construction, rhymes the artistry of the creation of the piece as a song. Generally the ones that have survived have done so because of these qualities.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 02:04 AM

"The way to react to a political song is by thinking about the melody and the lyrics the art of construction, rhymes the artistry of the creation of the piece as a song."

However, I can't say that I agree with that. The idea of a ballad, for example, is to tell a story, albeit in song. And a lyrical non-ballad usually implies a story, or at least a situation.   And in that same way that one listens and reacts intellectually and emotionally to these songs, I think one should listen to the message of the political song and think about that as well, even though you may not agree with the ideology.

I don't see how you can divorce the story a song tells, be it a ballad, a lyric, or a protest song, and narrow your focus only to the aesthetic values of the song. What a song says is an integral part of the song. In a sense, it's the very soul of the song.

If you keep an open mind, you might learn something you didn't know before, or see something in a different way.

For example, one might be all in favor of developing as many domestic energy resources as possible to cut down on importing Middle Eastern oil, but hearing a song like Jean Ritchie's
Blackwaters might make one rethink such matters as supporting coal companies who practice strip-mining, and the incredible mess this leaves behind. Better to keep looking than precipitate this kind of environmental disaster.

Or hearing a song like Eric Bogle's The Green Fields of France and the poignant message it contains might lead one to wonder if it is wise to continue supporting politicians whose answer to many foreign policy questions is to send in the troops.

You never can tell. In listening to a protest song, you might learn something. And after thinking about it for awhile, and perhaps looking into the matter yourself, you may even change your views.

It gives you an opportunity to rethink some issue.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 03:31 AM

Peasant/Butcher.
If I were you, (and very glad that I'm not BTW), I'd stop pissing in the wind.
Nobody here is fooled by your arguements. Not really sure why you're bothering.
Hoping to recruit people to your nasty little club?
Should we alienate Fasciste?
Too damn right we should.
And we'll start with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 04:07 AM

Oh and Conrad....Please name one right wing pro fascist song that you know?
I can't think of one myself. Please enlighten us...

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 04:32 AM

"In fact, to all intents and purposes they ARE you and the guy next door!
"

What a complete load of bollocks! For a start, neither I nor the "guy next door" have criminal convictions for racism and violence, not do I have a beer belly or wear a business suit - and I'm certainly not sad, deluded or a bastard. If the hat fits, Ake, wear it, but do not presume to speak for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 06:41 AM

Ralphie. "Please name one right wing pro fascist song that you know?"

There's the Horst Wessel song for one. Also, there are various heaps of chauvinistic shite being peddled around the British far right. EG., Send the Buggars Back. For that matter, the great white fat git himself has recorded a CD of his own compositions. It's on the BNP's own Great White Records label.

I'm not suggesting that any of these would be fit to use as toilet paper, but the problem is that the left has never been very prolific in terms of creating anti-fascist songs. That is something we need to change.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 07:39 AM

Yes one is free to meditate upon the meaning of the lyrics- an important dimension but if you find the message ofensive it is possible to toggle off the meaning and still have many other dimensions of the song left to enjoy.

Gaelic songs- very popular over the past several decades in places where very few if any understand the lyrics. That is because the songs are still carried along by the musical sounds of the words, rhymes rythms and tunes.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 07:45 AM

Thanks Fred.
Horst Wessel indeed!
(Couldn't remember the name).
Plus all Folk music from Germany pre 1939.
Hi-jacked by Goebbels and his cronies.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 07:57 AM

Peasant. Toggle off eh? There's an idea. How soon do you think you could manage it?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 06:26 PM

Conrad, I have no problem enjoying songs when I don't understand the words. One of my early musical interests (as a teen-ager, and continuing on to today) is opera—granted, not everyone's cup of tea. Most operas are in Italian, French, or German, sometimes Russian or Czech, languages which I do not speak myself.

But what makes opera enjoyable for many people (McCaw Hall, the Seattle Opera House, is filled to capacity, a bit short of 3,000 seats at almost every performance—as is the case with most opera houses around the country) is the combination of drama and music. Opera-goers tend to bone up ahead of time to find out what the story is;    the gist of what's going on, if not word-by-word. Without knowing this, opera becomes a confusing hodge-podge consisting of a bunch of people in costumes, generally singing very loudly in a foreign language. But knowing what's going on makes watching and listening to an opera production a combination of fine music and high drama, a whole different thing.

Season tickets (five operas) run from around $150 to $3,000. And it's not just a rich person's entertainment. There are a lot of students and working stiffs who are sufficiently avid opera fans that they prefer shucking out the money and sitting in the upper balcony (nosebleed altitude) to not going at all. What justifies the ticket prices (which some people might consider grossly overpriced) is that you are getting to hear some of the finest singers in the world, along with large choruses sometimes, fairly lavish stage sets and costumes, sometimes with a ballet troupe (dance sequences in Aida, La Traviata, Faust, et al) as well—with the whole shebang being accompanied by a full symphony orchestra. An opera is very expensive to stage!

Many opera buffs are sufficiently avid that a few weeks prior to going to a live performance, they'll try to get a DVD of the opera with sub-titles, or a CD set complete with libretto ("little book," which contains the text of the opera, two columns on each page, original language on the left, English translation on the right), so they can listen to the opera ahead of time and learn what it's about before going to the live performance. In fact, when a particular opera is coming up and you want to bone up on it, you'd better be quick, or you'll find that all of the library's copies are already checked out.

Lately, Seattle Opera, and a number of other opera companies, are using "supra-titles":    projecting the words in English, like subtitles in a movie, but on a strip of screen on the proscenium above the stage.

So, sure, one can enjoy sung music as pure music even if one doesn't understand the words, but that's a bit like having sex with a woman you don't like. A limited experience, maybe physically satisfying, but it leaves one feeling sort of emotionally "blah." Empty calories.

Grasp the nettle! Listen to the words and think about them, even if you don't like what they say. It's a chance to reassess your beliefs, which should always be an ongoing process.

If it's a concert by a performer who sings mostly politically oriented songs and you don't like his or her politics, and you know you aren't going to enjoy it, there is a simple expedient:    don't go to it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 07:12 PM

""If you keep your folk against fascism rally's out of general music oriented venues or music oriented forums like this one then fine. Feel free to oppose fascism whenever you wish in a political setting.

I do not and will not ever apologize for fascists however I will suggest, not tell, folk musicians that they should always tolerate music and those with differing political beliefs.""

You just don't get it!

You have no authority to tell anyone on this forum what he/she should or should not do."".

If you don't like what you see here go somewhere which fits in with your agenda. Maybe join the BNP?....They'd love your ideas.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 11:32 PM

Ok I just suggest it then. Let them decide

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:16 AM

I've just heard, via Hope Not Hate, that the BNP are fielding over 400 candidates in the general election. The message didn't say, but I presume that is just parliamentary candidates, and doesn't include those standing for local goverment office.

I was expecting them to mount a sizeable turnout, but certainly not one as big as this.

Most of them will be nothing more than paper candidates, with no hope of getting anything more than a handful of votes each. Even so, the BNP are clearly planning to make as much hay out of the election as they possibly can. Anti-fascists on this thread can obviously plan for a busy time ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Dai
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:40 AM

Fred, If people want to vote for them they hold that right. If people elect them you and I have to accept that. Much as we may dislike it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:59 AM

But some of us will be actively campaigning against them so people realise just what their repulsive policies are.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 11:28 AM

Dai. I wouldn't try and stop anyone from voting for anyone they wanted. But if the BNP have the right to put up for election, then I have the right to denounce them and organise against them.

An awful lot of people voted Hitler into power. Does that mean that the Jews, gypsies, trade unionists, socialists, liberals and gays who died in the gas chambers should have respected democracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 11:30 AM

It's an interesting dilemma, isn't it - extending the privileges of free speech and democracy to people who actively oppose free speech and democracy? Fortunately, I have not the least worry that, once they realise how loathesome these turds are, the people will send them packing with their tails between their legs.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 11:38 AM

That is exactly the plan; not to prevent the BNP or any other far right group from exercising their democratic rights, but to make sure that Mr and Mrs Joe Public are fully aware that they are nazis in respectable suits, and what voting in a BNP government would mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 01:10 PM

"Keep them dogies rollin', Rawhide...."

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 02:29 PM

Just to throw my opinion in- I try not to actively alienate anyone. At the same time, If I hear something I don't agree with I'm going to object to it, argue against it or ridicule it most of the time and if people feel alienated because of my honest responses tough luck. Also if someone says something that actually makes me want to punch them I'll probably avoid them so as to make sure that doesn't actually happen.

Also you can value art without valuing the artist but that might end with you paying royalties to a complete wanker who'll spend them on bigoted electoral campaigns etc... And I still wouldn't want social interaction with someone who makes me want to punch them every few minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 04:20 AM

Guess what folks. Sam the spam has struck again. Not only has he set up a Bebo page in my name, I'm now on Flickr. Yup, you guessed it. Fred McCormick the loyal BNP member.

What a wucking fanker. Sam that is, not me.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 05:50 AM

And these are the people to whom it's suggested we should exctend the normal democratic rights? Maybe when they stop abusing ours!

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 09:52 AM

It means I need to cut my fingernails.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 11:31 AM

I've just come back from a counter-demonstration against the BNP. The BNP demonstrators were shouting murderers at us. Why so? Well, they've got it into their tiny little minds that anyone supporting anti-fascism must be either a Labour Party member or a supporter of Labour policies. Therefore, everyone on the counter-demo must be personally responsible for all the dead troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

With logic like that, who needs a lunatic asylum full of inmates?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 11:44 AM

What goes around, comes around!

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 01:12 PM

I know. Amazing ennit. Up our way the BNP have become so notorious for bad behaviour that we've now got the police on our our side. And excuse me while I laugh, but this demonstration and counter demonstration happened outside the local crown court. Yep, you guessed it. One of their number was being arraigned on a charge of serious assault, for which he will hopefully receive a substantial prison sentence, and his mates outside couldn't even set an example by behaving like sensible adults.

As one of the officers said to me "If you took the collective IQ of that lot, it probably wouldn't get into double figures".

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 03:44 PM

Hey folks, it gets better and better. Having found that sam/helenbutcheretc has set up Bebo and Facebook accounts in my name, I've just had an email from Titter, sorry, Twitter asking me to activate my account! I don't have a Twitter accunt.

Are there no lengths to which this berk will not go in order to secure the glorious historic destiny of the blue haired, blonde eyed Aryan master bates? Sorry, master race.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 05:49 PM

You could hire some thugs to beat him up....

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 06:03 PM

I assume that "accunt" was not a typo.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 07:05 AM

""The UK is still a democracy, fight their campaign yes, but respect the voice of the people after the election. That is what sets us apart from fascism.""

In the event your nightmare scenario became fact Dai, we would have Fascism"", and there would be NO "voice of the people", only the voice of Fuhrer Griffin.

As the Germans found out to their cost, with the destruction of their nation, you can't give these people one single solitary inch.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 07:49 AM

Guess what folks. This annulus has now signed me up to Kelkoo. Whatever next I wonder? My God, the suspense is killing me.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 07:54 AM

And Digg, and Live Journal.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 07:56 AM

Is it me or does Griffin resemble a bloated slug in a suit? Maybe should pour some salt on him....

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 07:57 AM

Hi Fred....Lucky you...I haven't been targeted at all... Bugger. Obviously not worthy.
What do I have to do???

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 08:12 AM

As far as I remember, this all started when our democratic fighters started making nasty comments about a young lady BNP member who sang in a middle bar somewhere or other.

Our democrats obviously didn't want to play with her.....Boo Hoooo!

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 09:45 AM

The REAL Dai on the BNP

The BNP is an organisation made up of race haters,hardcore nazis,anti semites and street thugs. Its original leader,Griffin's predecessor John Tyndall, can be seen on "google images" posing in full nazi regalia in front of a large swastika and a framed photograph of Adolph Hitler.
If these characters who are filled with violence and race hatred ever came to power we would see a grotesque rerun of Hitler's Germany with trade unionists, ethnic communities ,leftists, Jews, moslems,the diabled,gays and working class organisations all at risk.
We really can't allow this bunch of thugs to get even more organised.The BNP is being joined at its race hate fest by a grisly collection of fascist and racist thugs from across Europe....I hope they get the welcome they so richly deserve.
Dai

"GUEST,Sam Hudson" is a stolen identity. "GUEST,Dai" is a stolen identity. Your best bet, IMO, is to not trust any pro-fascism, pro-bnp guest and check what they've said in the past if you're inclined. If all you want to do is argue with a troll, have fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 12:37 PM

Oh God, he's still at it. In the last couple of hours I've received emails from a firm making bras for big women, a "confidential" dating agency and a local council responding to my "claim" for housing benefit.

Any minute now his brain will burst from the exertion. Brain?, what brain? Thank God for the SAM bin. That's where he belongs.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 01:38 PM

I've just heard the news from Bolton. I didn't go because I had a strong suspicion that it would end in violence, and I am totally gutted at the fact that my fears have been confirmed.

Perhaps the picture will change as it becomes clearer, but of the 55 arrests, the overwhelming majority appear to have come from the anti-fascist side, and seem to have involved people who went there looking for violence.

The EDL, the BNP and every other far right organisation will be laughing themselves silly over this. It is exactly what they wanted. The football hooligans, knuckleheads and skinheads of the EDL succeeded in turning Bolton into a battleground virtually without lifting a finger. They have gained the maximum publicity for their cause and they have come out of it looking as though they are the victims.

The EDL website has gone out of its way to urge disciplined and ostensibly peaceful behaviour from its supporters. They have insisted that there were to be no unauthorised megaphones; no thugs getting tanked up to the ears beforehand; no racism; and no "Allah" songs. That is because they knew the knuckleheads on our side would do their dirty work for them.

The bastards. The stupid bloody bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 01:59 PM

Exactly so Fred, the lynch mob mentality never works!


Perhaps the folks here need to take a good look at what is really happening in this country....stop creating bogeymen and start thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 03:03 PM

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1201095_dozens_arrested_in_bolton_edl_rally_protest

This report makes it sound sort of 50-50 ish

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 03:08 PM

This too, fairly.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 03:24 PM

Conrad, I hear ya'. Any rant gets old even if you agree with it. All we can do as human beings is to offer factual information and hope someone understands.

Pete Seeger had a way of introducing his ideas into a concert that were not offensive
to his audience. I've seen him charm a Young Republican audience. A lot of what is
artistic is the way you approach your point-of-view as a performer. Rants just turn
people off. The late Lee Hays of the Weavers must be credited for offering a political viewpoint through humor in the tradition of Will Rogers and carried on by Garrison Keillor.

In a dialogue with fascists, it may be like discussing with certain religious people whose
minds have been made up and will not operate on a reasoned level. I think of fascism
as a kind of religion as was Stalinism or Naziism.

I think one can alienate the principles of fascism quite easily by pointing out that they embody a kind of political cultish devotion by those who think they will benefit from it in some way. The eyes-glazed-over look can be diffused by moving away from their agenda in the conversation toward something that is mutually agreeable.

Confrontation in an attempt to persuade those with a fascist ideology only hardens their position. The only thing anyone can do is offer reasoned facts and observations.

It takes a great deal of humility to attempt to find common ground with those with which we disagree.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 03:29 PM

Getting accurate facts could be tricky, but some sources are saying that the UAF were kettled for over an hour before the EDL arrived in force, then the EDL were largely allowed to run riot by the police, until they started throwing things at the police. Allegedly the UAF and RAR organisers were seen to be peacefully demonstrating before taken by police snatch squads, and before there were any major events of disorder.

There seems to be enough to make one ask whether the police were acting objectively, or in a partisan fashion.

There is a rumour but I know no more that MacDonalds was bombed.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 04:05 PM

Akenton. "Exactly so Fred, the lynch mob mentality never works!" The lynch mob mentality belongs on the fascist side, along with apartheid, Auschwitz and the jackboot and the gas chamber. The vast majority of anti-fascists realise that. Unfortunately, a tiny minority don't. They think they are aiding the socialist revolution. They're not.

Richard. I'll know more when I speak to some of the people who went to Bolton. I do know though that some of the demonstrators went with the express aim of causing trouble. If they played into the hands of reactionary police, as well as the EDL, that is their own stupid fault.

What makes it worse for me is that I've just spent two days demonstrating against the BNP. We protested peacefully. The BNP did not. In fact they proved themselves to be an unruly paranoid rabble. We got a lot of support from passers by, where the BNP just made fools of themselves. That is how you fight fascism, not by turning up at anti-fascist rallies armed with too much testosterone.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 04:51 PM

"The lynch mob mentality belongs on the fascist side, along with apartheid, Auschwitz and the jackboot and the gas chamber."

With the greatest of respect Fred you are talking of another time, another age.....We have new threats to fight against, many of them hidden in our own ideology.

Our society is broken....and we assisted in the destruction, many of the issues which seemed so clear and so right have been proved more destructive than the ones they replaced

We on the left (and I still count myself amongst that number) have been guilty of hypocrisy, wooly mindedness and sheer stupidity, we have allowed ourselves to be sidetracked by all manner of diversions instead of concentrating on ridding ourselves of the one overiding evil, Capitalism.....both State and Private.

Given the information technology available today, there is no chance of a return to German style fascism, or German militarism.
There is however, the likelihood of ideological "fascism" which is more likely to come from the ranks of the new left, than the right.
"Orwellian" in nature and more destructive to the long term freedom and happiness of humanity than anything we have yet seen.

If there are some real Fascists and Racists among the BNP then they are deranged and very easy to alienate from society....but I'm sure the majority who vote BNP do so in protest at the damage being inflicted on our country and our people by unscrupulous governments made up from political Parties which are almost indistinguishable from one another and by labeling them Fascist or racist, we are being intellectually lazy and creating more of the divisions in society which enable this failed system to continue....

Lets develop a sense of perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 05:48 PM

"ridding ourselves of the one overriding evil, Capitalism.....both State and Private". Bravo.

Your bigotries ake detract from the task of overcoming that overriding evil.

Your faith that there is no prospect of a return to italo-german state fascism is woolly minded in the extreme.   Are you not watching what the "wash-up procedure" is doing to internet access? Even the BBC have caught on.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 05:57 PM

I gather Weymann-Bennet has been released without charge. Failed BNP (oops, EDL) fit-up then.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 07:25 PM

Socialist Worker has carried an ongoing 'feed' about the anti fascist opposition to the attempt by the fascist EDL to invade Bolton.
Well done to the thousands of anti fascists who turned out to oppose the violent beer sodden racist thugs in their face scarves and balaclavas.
The lesson of history warns us that we have to confront these racists or they just keep coming back for more.
Moreover, there are serious questions about the role of the police who sought to intimidate the anti fascists while chatting to some EDL thugs as if they were old chums.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Mark Stevens
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 09:55 AM

re: yesterday's Bolton News and Waayman(sic) Bennett's arrest.

That made my day :) I wonder who are the real Fascists ?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 10:12 AM

"I wonder who are the real Fascists ?"

I think probably just need to look in the mirror :0

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 11:33 AM

Is this the same Mark Stevens who played Speed The Plough on the BNP's CD of the Red White & Blue Festival 2007? I reckon it must be because here's his interests as shown on the BNP 2007 membership list.

"BSc (Hons) Media Production. HND Moving Image/Photography. Semi-professional multi musician (traditional/British folk). Pagan. Classic motorcycle enthusiast. Huntsman"

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Mark Stevens
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 03:29 PM

Ah, you've been listening to my folk musical contribution to British Nationalism !

Good on you, matey ! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 03:47 PM

I haven't. Your so called contribution is there for all to see on Excalibur, along with a lot of other gut wrenching tripe.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 04:38 PM

Fred.....why are you so surprised that people do nasty things to your facebook profile?
A bit of liberal tolerance would help.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 04:31 AM

Why should we tolerate a bunch of intolerant, illiberal facist thugs? Your logic escapes me.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 04:40 AM

Leveller, these type of threads cause problems. I wish to God you and the few others involved would just drop it. Leave them to it. You are stirring the pot and others end up getting hurt.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 05:20 AM

akenaton "Fred.....why are you so surprised that people do nasty things to your facebook profile? A bit of liberal tolerance would help."

Did I ever express surprise at the lunatic antics of a bunch of nutters on the far right? In any event I don't have a facebook profile. As for the notion of liberal tolerance, I suggest you read a few histories of the third reich. Try reading about the liberal tolerance which Hitler and his cronies showed towards the Jews, gays, liberals, trade unionists, socialists, gypsies, the congenitally infirm and all the other outcasts of the master race.

I believe in tolerance of other people's cultural proclivities, but I am utterly intolerant of those who are themselves intolerant of other sections of humanity, whether on the grounds of race, religion, sexuality or for any other reason.

One world. One people. One race - the human race.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 05:48 AM

"Leave them to it. You are stirring the pot and others end up getting hurt. "

If we turn a blind eye people get hurt - all those groups that these thugs are opposed to.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 05:49 AM

They got me too! Funny though because my real name is unusual and I know with absolute certainty that there is only one of me:-) They also seemed to couple my name with a picture of a certain Greek gentleman who also corresponds on here. Very flattering for me, as if I had 1/4 of Georges talent I would be happy! They put the mythical English/Polish/Russian/Greek amalgamation as living in the Midlands somehere. Not very bright are they? It was reported to Facebook and removed straight away.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 06:48 AM

They have little to do. Let sleeping dogs sleep !

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 11:28 AM

Steamin' Willie "They have little to do. Let sleeping dogs sleep!"

Oh aye? I've just received this from Hope Not Hate.

"Over the past few days the media have been reporting that Griffin and his fellow BNP MEP Andrew Brons have been using vast amounts of taxpayer money to prop up their extremist party. Our research team have just sent me a dossier listing the benefactors of this action - and 10 of them are standing to be MPs in the coming election, including their election co-ordinator.

"We are paying for the BNP's election campaign.

"This appears to be a clear misuse of public funds - and it's up to us to demand that the EU take the strongest possible action to stop it. We've set up a simple tool that lets you write to four EU anti-corruption bodies at once.

http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/fraud

"According to our source inside the BNP, 14 party members are being paid with EU money. Several of them don't even live in areas where the BNP has MEPs. And most of them are among the party's lead candidates in the forthcoming General Election.

"We can't let this continue. If enough of us come together we can demand that the EU stamp down on the BNP's dodgy activities - and stop each of us funding this nasty, extremist party. Our simple tool lets you write to the EU Anti-Fraud Office, the EU Ombudsman, the President of the EU Parliament, and the Secretary General.

"Every taxpayer is currently funding the BNP's election campaign. With your help we can stop this right here and right now."

Sounds pretty typical of fascist behaviour to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 12:52 PM

Labour under Blair, were far more dangerous!
More dangerous than the

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 12:53 PM

Tories??

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM

""Perhaps the folks here need to take a good look at what is really happening in this country....stop creating bogeymen and start thinking.""

It ain't happening in your country Ake, so it's easy for you to act the pompous prat.

We have to deal with them, and we will.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 12:04 PM

Perhaps the thread title should be changed to:

BS: Should you kick Fascists in the nuts, shoot them on sight, and rip their stinking jugular veins out with your own teeth whenever you encounter them? Could our world be made safer and kinder in this fashion?

Would that better express the emotional needs of the enlightened majority? We do NEED, after all, to eliminate these wretches once and for all, correct? So what are we waiting for???

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:35 PM

Where in God's name did you get that from, LH? Certainly not from anything I posted.
I expect that kind of truth spinning crap from Akenaton. He doesn't know any better.

Where have I ever suggested a physical response? Those are exactly the tactics which make the BNP so unacceptable as a political party.

Nonetheless, we cannot let them sow their poison without following behind to pull it up by the roots. Without constantly confronting their vile racism and bigotry, it will be allowed to pass unchallenged, and to corrupt the ignorant.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 03:38 PM

Maybe I'm daft to leave myself open to the nut cases who follow these sort of threads.....and I've never met a real blood spattered rope carrying racist......BUT....BUT...BUT if Mr Griffin is "one of those", is barring non whites from his sad little group, really worse than being the Labour prime minister who made us all complicit in the deaths of a million men women and children?

Is calling a black child a gollywog, worse than having a child blown to pieces by a "drone" and its soulless guidance system?

I hate racism.....but I hate war and slaughter even more, haven't we lost our way somewhere along the road?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 03:53 PM

Don. Hear hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 05:57 PM

Excuse me for protruding, but I sometimes think Little Hawk would make excuses for the Devil himself.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 06:06 PM

Don't make the mistake of interpreting my satirical comments below on a literal basis, Don. ;-) I was joshing. I was making fun of the undercurrents of emotional violence various people are indulging themselves in here, not suggesting that any of you are proponents of actual physical violence toward anyone.

Why should I even have to explain that? You're not stupid, after all, correct?

I'm not making any kind of excuse or even any kind of comment about the BNP in anything I've said here. I have no interest in defending or helping them in any way. I'm commenting instead on the general level of the dialogue on this thread, and what seems to drive it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 06:39 PM

I hate racism.....but I hate war and slaughter even more, haven't we lost our way somewhere along the road?

So, as long as we have the one it is OK to continue with the other? That is a very strange kind of logic. Are you saying that until war is eliminated we should ignore racism or something? Do you not think that the two go hand in hand in a lot of cases and if you eliminate racism people will have less reason to hate each other? Maybe when all the people at grass roots level stop believing the lies spun in the media then we can start the real fight - against the people who opress us all, no matter what colour or creed!

Just a thought.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: olddude
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 07:18 PM

IF YA CAN FIND AN ISLAND BIG ENOUGH FER ALL OF EM

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 07:28 PM

LH: You go be nice to them. I`d rather fight `em, violence or not. Your judgement of posters on the thread neglects to note that at least they have taken a position--one with which you seem to disagree. Such is your right--and such was theirs. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 07:33 PM

BTW, I think a better title for this thread would have been, "Should you welcome fascists into your home and heart." What a fuckin`stupid question. As to alienate them--why not? And the sooner the better, again IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 08:28 PM

""Is calling a black child a gollywog, worse than having a child blown to pieces by a "drone" and its soulless guidance system?

I hate racism.....but I hate war and slaughter even more, haven't we lost our way somewhere along the road?""

NO AKE! They are both totally indefensible!

There is no conflict between hating racism, and hating war and slaughter.

In answer to your question, NO! We haven't lost our way. We hate both racism, and war and slaughter, and if you don't understand that, it is YOU who have lost your way!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Mark Stevens
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 10:46 PM

QUOTE:
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 03:47 PM

I haven't. Your so called contribution is there for all to see on Excalibur, along with a lot of other gut wrenching tripe.

Fred, how can you condem my recordings and other Excalibur products as 'a lot of other gut wrenching tripe' when you haven't heard it ??

Doh, the chattering classes....

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST, Poxicat
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 03:53 AM

Mark, please consider yourself alienated. Go away. And preferably do not go to the Sweeps' festival either, particularly not the beer festival. If I spot you I will reveal your membership.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 04:31 AM

Don.....The point I was making, is that there is much more hatred engendered here over PERCEIVED racism(I have yet to hear any BNP member espouse such a view; as opposed to political objections to immigration), than there is over actual war crimes which are routinely practiced by "liberal democratic" governments like the US or UK.

Your hatred of the BNP is a petty, personal hatred(knee jerk?),rather than one that has much relevance in the REAL world.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 04:36 AM

I think it might be time to put this thread to bed. Don and Fred has now said they want to sort these Bnp/fascists out. Good luck to both of you. The only purpose that is served by keeping this open is to invite namecalling and genetically identical individuals turning up on other sites.

It seems that it's impossible to argue with these people(e.g. Don and Fred have been repeating the same slogans over and over without any arguments from those they target), ignoring them would be more reasonable.

Members here do not support fascism and have never supported it. I think that some people here are just stuck in stereotypes and thus they think that all parties outside Lab/Con, are actually Fascists, but it's not so.Is it so hard to understand it?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 04:54 AM

"PERCEIVED racism(I have yet to hear any BNP member espouse such a view; as opposed to political objections to immigration)"


Nick Griffin advises American White Supremacists on how to "sell" their ideas

Nick Griffin denies Holocaust & says he'd send all non-whites home

Nick Griffin's views on having a black American president

former BNP member explains their tactics

BNP 2005 manifesto - "biological separation"


I've got more if you want them...

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 05:08 AM

I was of course, talking of BNP supporters on this forum.

I myself do not support any political party

Nor do I search for obscure propaganda

Do all Labour voters share in the blood dripping from Blair's hands?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 05:16 AM

It ain't obscure, being readily available on Youtube - and most of it is their own (albeit internal) propaganda.

Regardless of what any BNP members who have posted on this forum have (or have not) admitted to, these are the beliefs of their party.

Personally, I am not a member of the Labour party and have been on anti-war, Not In My Name demonstrations. That's how I've expressed my disapproval of our government's actions.

So how do these purportedly non-racist members of the BNP publicly address and denounce the proven racism of their leaders?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 05:17 AM

First,

I was of course, talking of BNP supporters on this forum.

Nick Griffin has, alegedly, been on this forum. There have been extreme racist views put forward on this forum that have, quite rightly, been deleted.

Next, I don't support any political party either but I can see the difference between them!

Finaly

Nor do I search for obscure propaganda

No - you don't need to. You can make it up, as in "Do all Labour voters share in the blood dripping from Blair's hands?" The right wing press is missing a trick not employing you ake:-)

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 05:33 AM

But aren't Labour worse.

How many here will still vote for them..... after Blair, the corruption, the financial incompetence. Hoon, Straw, Jowell they are disgusting!

Cant you still see them and hear them, lecturing us on why we must assist in the slaughter of a generation of Iraqis? Only they didn't use the words(the biggest crime of the BNP)....but they knew and they didnt care!

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 06:04 AM

I agree, ake, not that Labour are worse but that the corruption and, incompetance and war mongering is disgusting.

However, what you will get with this 'alternative' is coruption, incompetence and warmongering PLUS racism and, ultimately, a facist dictatorship. Can you not go back only 80 years and learn the lessons of history?

In addition is there ANY other polical poster on here that steals your words, changes them to suit their political agenda nad posts them as if they were your own? The bastards of the B*P do! Just look at the facebook 'Mudcat' group and see what they are doing to Fred, Bruce and many others that are perfectly decent folk on here. It has happened to me to and, annoyingly, these words will probably be twisted yet again to suit their hatemongering. You are fortunate in that it will never happen to you as you, seemingly, support their cause.

Please open your eyes and see them for what they are.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 07:36 PM

""How many here will still vote for them..... after Blair, the corruption, the financial incompetence. Hoon, Straw, Jowell they are disgusting!

Cant you still see them and hear them, lecturing us on why we must assist in the slaughter of a generation of Iraqis? Only they didn't use the words(the biggest crime of the BNP)....but they knew and they didnt care!""

Once again, the childish "somebody else did it worse, so they must be acceptable by comparison" argument.

WRONG AGAIN AKE!!

No conflict exists between hating what Blair stood for, and hating what Griffin stands for. To advance an "either or" argument where the two are NEITHER alternatives, NOR mutually exclusive, simply exposes the fatally flawed output of a terminally ignorant mindset.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 08:38 PM

Ake, you note that you haven't known any BMP poster on the forum to express anything racist here. Question: If an avowed KKK member posted, defended the KKK, and made general claims that it's ideals were for the good of the nation and the world, but personally made no racist comments here: would you be comfortable with him, and say that we shouldn't assume that he was a racist?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 09:06 PM

Dave....we cant go back 80 yrs, so much has happened since then, times were totally different, especially methods of broadcasting information...There will never be a "Forth Reich", cant you see what is happening to you and the others here who become agitated by the BNP.
You are allowing yourselves to be diverted from the real problems in our society....What happened in the run up to the Iraq War should have been the end of the Labour Party, now the crimes of a democratically elected government are being forgotten along with the way we were lied to and manipulated.

To hate others because of their colour or race, people must be mad and if the BNP leadership are raving madmen, then you have the problem of a handful of deranged individuals supported by a few thousand voters who have become disenchanted by the lies and corruption of our mainstream politicians.

Hardly world shattering front page news!

If you lot were real radicals, you would be screaming at Labour for the deceit and arrogance, not protecting them from the wild men of the BNP.

There is no chance of the BNP becoming anything more than a handy tool of protest, the real danger is that the bastards who made us pariahs in the eyes of the civilised world are still in power and with the help of people like you and others on this thread will be returned to power, cleaned, refreshed and ready to kill again in our name.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 10:32 PM

You preferred Maggie Thatcher then, Ake?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 10:47 PM

The evil that the BNP are and would do so far outweighs those of any other current UK political party that your ideas Ake, are lunacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 04:55 AM

History repeats itself, ake. Over and over. In the words of the song it's all heppened again. And again and again and again and again... So just what is it that cannot happen now that happened 80 years ago ake? Beating beaten or killed for voting the wrong way? Move to Zimbabwe and tell us that it can't happen. Removal of all intelectuals? Ask a Cambodian about that. Ethnic cleansing? Ever heard of Srebrenica? Bosnia if you can't remember where it is...

I quite agree with you about the corruption and shinanigans going on in politics today, but don't expect me to agree that the thugs you are supporting are a valid alternative. They are not. They have all the bad habits of mainstream politicians and many more worse ones besides. I wouldn't give a single politician the time of day but until we have a valid alternative, which I notice you are not providing, we must ensure that things get no worse.

And I notice you have not addressed the issue of those 'disenchanted voters' hijacking our identities, illegaly, for their own political ends, regardless of the damage it can do. These are the type of people you are supporting? Surely not!

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,Mr. K. Butler
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 05:00 AM

For the attention of Fred McCormick. Fred I am sorry I don't understand why you sent me this link. I would probably vote for the Green Party. I have no interest in the British National Party or English Defence League, so you are wasting your time trying to convert me ! No I have never listened to your "Back Britain" slot on Live 365 either.

No offence Mr. McCormick, but I honestly think you contacted the wrong Keith Butler, it's a common enough name around Liverpool.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 05:36 AM

Mr Butler - I think you have been victim of a scam. Fred has an 'evil clone' on the false B*P mudcat on facebook. If you got any literature about said party I suspect it was not from the real Fred.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 06:49 AM

That is certain DeG. Fred has exactly the same attitude as I do.

But I'm not too sure about this Guest Mr. K Butler either.

We've no way to determine whether any guest is one of our regular trolls.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 07:42 AM

That's true, Don. Maybe it is another one of these enlightened people who simply want what's best for the country? :-S One to think about - Is it worth PMing the mods and asking for all Guest posts to be blocked?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 10:08 AM

Mr. K. Butler."For the attention of Fred McCormick. Fred I am sorry I don't understand why you sent me this link. I would probably vote for the Green Party. I have no interest in the British National Party or English Defence League, so you are wasting your time trying to convert me ! No I have never listened to your "Back Britain" slot on Live 365 either.

"No offence Mr. McCormick, but I honestly think you contacted the wrong Keith Butler, it's a common enough name around Liverpool."

Like Don, I'm suspicious of this post, if only because the vicious stalker/cloner/identity thief who makes such lavish use of the Mudcat Guest facility, uses so many aliases. Moreover, our Mr Butler hasn't posted the link, thinks I come from Liverpool, and has posted a reply here to a message which appears to have been sent from a fake social network page.

However, in case he is genuine, let me assure him that I am anti-BNP, anti-EDL, anti-fascist and anti-racist. Moreover, I do not have a "Back Britain" spot on my Live365 programme, and never have had, although I might try a Black Britain slot some day.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 12:44 PM

No, I don't think so DeG.

Free speech and all that. Besides, if we had banned guest postings from them, they would not have been able to show what complete arses they are.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 12:50 PM

""You preferred Maggie Thatcher then, Ake?""

No Don F, he didn't.

Ake doesn't really believe in anything.

He is just so fond of his own cleverness that he looks for any good discussions, sees which side has most adherents, and takes the opposite viewpoint.

Ake's only real opinions are tied up in getting shot of gays, travellers, and immigrants.

Draw your own conclusions.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 01:21 PM

Ah, so!

That explains a lot.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 04:04 PM

Fairy Nuff, Don T - I think you're right.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 05:09 AM

Thank you for the psycho-analysis lads.
I shall sleep easier tonight knowing someone "cares" :0)

Do you really think I would waste my time winding up people like you?
I only write on this forum on issues I consider to be very important.

There are a handful of people here, who are genuinely liberal....nothing to do with politics by the way.
It is my mission to convert the rest of you.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 05:42 AM

So, as part of this conversion program, do you think you could address the issues I brought up rather then indulge in an exchange of pleasantries, ake?

How can you say the events of 80 years ago cannot happen again when they so obvioulsy can and have?

What would you propose as a valid alternative to the government you so despise? The BNP? Monster Raving Loony? The Ake party?

How do you justify the hijacking of Mudcat identities by BNP activists if they are so harmless?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 07:54 AM

I've just found this blog on Andrew Brons's website. It relates to the fact that the BNP have found a female candidate to stand for them in Luton.

"When I look at some of the 'females' on the Labour benches I wonder why God was so cruel to them when He handed out good looks! Thankfully, Ms Rose was in the 'right queue' when good looks were handed out!"

There's a few more in similar vein.

Nice to know that policies matter so.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 09:05 AM

Ah well, when you compare the men the BNP have almost a monopoly on the ugly pond.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 06:36 PM

Oh look! Right on schedule.......Pond Scum.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge on the other browser
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 08:13 PM

Yes, it's really me despite the chimps' fondness of mimicry.

Actually, I think I'm rather better looking than you chimps. It's to do with evolution, something that seems to have passed you by.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 08:16 PM

You can have your cookie on more than one browser or computer, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 08:06 AM

I'm not sure, Jeri - Can you have your cookie and eat it? :-)

I request an answer to my earlier questions please, Ake - Third time of asking.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 06:23 PM

Sure, fascists like Wagner.










Porter Wagner!

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 06:18 AM

My God, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Andrew Brons's blog this morning contained a news item headed:-

BNP's Legal Team Shuts down Identity Theft Fraudster.

http://bnp.org.uk/2010/03/bnp%e2%80%99s-legal-team-shuts-down-identity-theft-fraudster/

A pity the BNP can't control the identity thieving activities of one of its own members.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge on the other browser
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 12:06 PM

Thank you for that Fred. I will provide a copy to certain recipients pointing out that the alleged businessman allegedly impersonated has allegedly "initiated" police action (funny, I thought the police did that) because of the identity theft.