BS: Should you alienate Fascists?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 12:03 PM

changing peoples politics is none of my business it is a matter for the individual and certainly not a matter for the community of folkies.
Based upon this thread thus far many simply believe that you can alienate and exclude a person from music and our community just because of political views. Sad.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 11:31 AM

I can see an alien quality in some fascists. Not sure if it has any specific characteristic (though I did see one once who wore a funny hat). But, they are hardly alienish, or true alienoids.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 11:13 AM

Peasant. Where did I say everyone who plays and composes folk music has to agree with me? I know a lot of people who don't, but whose performance abilities I nonethless admire and enjoy.

BTW., have you ever tried to convince a dyed in the wool fascist of the merits of your argument?

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 11:02 AM

The music is immaterial - it's the people who are the problem and I, for one, don't want to mix with fascists.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 10:42 AM

Sorry we do music as individuals you can do what you want politically just don't consider adoption of political views something that needs to be confused with folk music. On a musical and folkloric level it should not matter what views they have.

Evil is something also that is personally defined. One could consider fok music evil and some do because it leads folks to bad unhealthy lifeways alcoholism etc. So using your logic we should alienate it and ban it.

Apples and oranges.

Lots of people enjoy folk music play and compose it. You think you have to have all of them agree with you politically- that is absurd even though you have facts on your side and may have a good point. I don't agree with many alernative lifeways pratices etc... but I have no trouble living with them. Anyway if you force them away how can you convince them that your point of view has merit.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 10:36 AM

Peasant. First of all I was expressing a personal opinion as to what I would do if I was confronted by a folk club which admitted Nazis. If anyone wants to start such a folk club that is entirely up to them. But do not expect me to be part of it, or have anything to do with it.

Secondly, the Third Reich's primary aim was the total Aryanisation of German culture and of the German people, and the elimination of all "inferior" elements from its soil. That meant the extermination of the Jews, gypsies, chronically sick and disabled etc. It also meant the reinstatement of German folk music and other German folk arts, because these were held to be the true and unsullied products of the native German people.

Fascism and the nativisation of folk culture don't thank God always go hand in hand. In Third Reich Germany however, they did. And the same goes for the racist, homophobic, mysogynistic, anti-Semitic, anti-Islamic, Traveller hating British NATIONAL Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 10:13 AM

It's not just folkies. Any decent human should excoriate nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 10:10 AM

Fine I understand but no folk song has ever hauled anyone away...ok maybe hauled away to liver distruction....

sure you can have political opinions nothing wrong with that

just dont talk about folk music in the same sentence.

All folkies can do what they want with politics. it is insulting that some think that just because we are folkies necessairly should agree on political issues. i would hope that we would all have individual opinions. but it does not matter what we think about politics or if we live politically correct lives....the only thing important here is music folklore etc.....and even then we are all independent.

i just don't like statements like "all folkies must do xyz" or all folkies should alienate or exclude or attack a member of a different lifeway, political party-

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 07:38 AM

Here on Merseyside, Police have started riding school buses to protect Muslim schoolgirls from being racially attacked. Why? Because of anti-Islamic hatred stirred up by the BNP. Personally I wouldn't piss on the bastards, much less visit a folk club where fascists were accepted. Or if I did I would sing something so offensive to their ideology, that the buggars would walk out immediately.

Conrad Bladey. In case you've forgotten, six million Jews were hauled off to the gas chambers by a regime whose stated objectives included the revitalisation of folk music. White Aryan folk music of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 07:00 AM

Feel free, Lox, feel free :)

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:43 AM

Leveller,

I would be a very happy man if I could express myself remotely as clearly, substantially and concisely as your last post.

I will be putting that answer in my mental library.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:36 AM

"the modern definition of fascist"

And this is found in which dictionary?

None?

Its a fabrication of Ake's?

It serves to represent his shallow world view and nothing more?

Gosh - that sounds very clever ...


"they have even started to turn on Amos in another thread"


In what way exactly?

By engaging intelligently with his posts?

I forgot - you are being censored aren't you Ake.

Whenever someone disagrees with you, tells you something you didn't know, or points out weaknesses in your argument, much less exposes your motivations that is actually a form of censorsship isn't it Ake.

Maybe you should write to Amnesty international for help.

Maybe we could start a letter writing campaign to liberate you from your chains.


Then you'll be free to make disparaging groundless comments abot Moslems, Gypsies and immigrants without having insults like "bigot" hurled at you.

Go on ... show us your bruises ...

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:11 AM

"how do you know an ideological extremist when we see one"

Well it's pretty simple really. You listen to their ideas, ideals, values and the language and tone of voice they use. Then you compare it to what known extremists have said. And, if you have a mind, you read the likes of A C Grayling, Tzvetan Todorov, Vasily Grossman and others who were the victims of ideological extremism. Then you make your own mind up. This is what personal liberty is all about. This is what the extremists you support seek to supress.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 05:39 AM

So, Fred, you out yourself as one of the little conspiracy who impersonate others and spread lies about them. I remember you from the nazi boards. I remember your picture on the "friends" lists of some of the troglodytes.

Go and infiltrate some other sort of music with your lies and agenda of white supremacy.

Go and look up the meaning of the word "fascist".

Go and look up the history of the many murders committed by all fascist governments.

Go and look up the list of convictions of the BNP's members and supporters.

Go and learn the difference between "right-thinking" and "of the political right".

Most importantly, go.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 04:34 AM

From my own experience, I think that UKIP is hot on the heels of the BNP as an ultra-right wing party. Seems I'm not the only one - here are the words of Dr Alan Sked, who originally founded UKIP:

"If the party is really so obsessed with race, immigration and Islam, it should simply merge with the BNP, which it increasingly resembles. Why have a competition in intolerance? Why not present a united front? After all the political expediency that drives both these anti-EU parties to take up seats in the European Parliament surely dictates such a measure. But let us dismiss any thought that either of them represents "British values".

I founded UKIP as a tolerant, liberal and democratic party. By 1997 I could already see the far-right writing on the wall and quit as party leader and member. It is a decision that I have never regretted, now least of all. I hope that all decent people will condemn the party..."

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 02:43 AM

"We can not afford to turn any group away from the music."

I'm not sure who this "we" is that you claim to represent, or why you can't afford to turn fascists away. Personally, I would have nothing to do with any musical group that had a fascist element. I think many people in the folk community would also be alienated by fascists - hence Folk Against Fascism. Perhaps you should start Folk For Fascism and see how many supporters you got.

These are certainly not the sort of people I wish to share my music with:

bnp convictions

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 01:15 AM

Hmm, that looks remarkably like "Tomorrow belongs to me".

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 12:34 AM

Those who do not get out of the way or adapt to the history coming at them will not have a chance to repeat it-C.Bladey, 2010

Oooh, a death threat. Just what I'd expect from a Fascist, though. And you want me to be all lovey-lovey with fascists. It would require me to be missing more cogs than I even have.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 12:05 AM

#1 Peasant, you miss the implied point: Music is a wonderful thing. Music is made by people. When those same people are seriously beyond the pale, it necessarily affects the message of the music. Above Hannibal Lector was mentioned. Do you personally feel you could sit in the audience and applaud a known serial killer, just because you like his music?.   .

Fascists - and their ilk - are no less distasteful than Hannibal Lector. There are things more important than music

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 11:38 PM

Don-

So you believe that folks should alienate all groups including life style choices that you dont agree with?

Can't you sit down with a person and focus on anything else but politics?

A sad state of tolerance we see here.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 11:35 PM

Those who do not get out of the way or adapt to the history coming at them will not have a chance to repeat it-C.Bladey, 2010

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 10:46 PM

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
                                                          —George Santayana

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 10:35 PM

I grew up during World War II.

To my knowledge, this was the heyday of fascism and a graphic demonstration of what fascism really amounts to. There were three fascist countries:    Nazi Germany, Italy under Mussolini, and Spain under Franco. There was also Japan, which at the time was a military dictatorship. I'm not sure if political scientists would classify it clearly as fascist, but it was certainly in the ball park.

There were differences between these countries, but they had a number of things in common. The corporations rode high, especially in Italy, where Mussolini said that "Fascism should more properly be called 'corporatism,' because the corporations and the government are one and the same." [You will note that, with the recent Supreme Court decision allowing corporations to buy elected officials, the United States has taken a giant step toward "corporatism," or as it is more commonly called, fascism.]

The common characteristics of all three of these countries (or with Japan, all four) was that they were totalitarian in the extreme, highly militaristic, bellicose (declaring war on other countries willy-nilly with the idea of world conquest—the exception being Spain, that stayed neutral during WW II), and interestingly enough, the dictators of these countries all pranced around wearing military uniforms. Although they were all racist, the most egregious of them was Nazi Germany, that went on an organized, industrialized campaign to rid the world of "undesirables and defectives" such as Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the handicapped, and anyone else that the leaders took a dislike to.

The philosophies expressed by the various neo-Nazi groups who inhabit parts of the American south, northern Idaho, and the wilds of eastern Oregon, and that of the various leaders of the American Nazi Party (all of whom display a penchant for wearing military uniforms and going armed) are an anathema to any decent human being and a rank stench in the noses of those who have a sense of history.

Fascists had their chance seventy years ago and many millions of innocent people were murdered coldly and brutally as a result.

Alienating and isolating fascists is the ethical and moral duty of any civilized human being.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 09:15 PM

Historically, of the three true, and temporarily successful, f/Fascist movements - under Mussolini, Hitler and Franco - only Nazism was actually racist. The fact that a movement is racist, or filled with ignorant bullies, hardly makes it fascist. There is an unfortunate tendency to throw around terms without paying any attention to their actual meaning. Besides using fascist to refer to the BNP and its ilk, another example is the ridiculous use of "socialist" or even "communist" to refer to President Obama and the left wing of the Democratic Party in the US...who would generally be placed in the center or even the right-center of the political spectrum in most Western European countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:40 PM

This has been a bit better and a bit worse than some of your other efforts Pissant. You score well on calling attention to yourself but the sympathy factor was as dead as your dick on this one.

I remember back 10 years ago when you had one all about your great works in "Orange Collection." You do have a fine body of work there but your attitude came through and when I and others jacked up your sorry ass, you got some sympathy from many others. You really had a hit with that crappy one about your car too.....covered in sod or carpet or something stupid. You were your usual pissant self and I really took a lot of flak from the 'Catters who thought I was cruel and that you had turned over a new leaf.

No, this one doesn't come close to those two on the "pity me" scale. The only flies around your shit are some other shit stirrers who are much like yourself.....you know, "dicks".............not even a hard-on...............just limpdick motherfuckers.........just like YOU CB!!!

So when can I expect you back? I actually missed one of your wanker threads once and I have felt bad about it ever since. Let me know because I am more than happy to give you the attention you want just for the privilege of once again pointing out your extremely shortcomings. If your mother had any children that lived bring them along next time too!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:37 PM

Thanks Bruce...I appreciate that, but people like Lox and Jim are hardly worth your concern....both fall into the modern definition of fascist, in that any dissent from their ideology will not be tolerated under any circumstances, they have even started to turn on Amos in another thread. Dissent is opposed by the use of code words to denigrate their victims. (bigot, homophobe, racist) to name but three.

I have spent the evening listening to music and am perfectly relaxed about how I am viewed by Lox and Jim.

There are a few here, that if I had upset I would worry about, but Lox n' Jim?.......Tra La La :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:28 PM

Let me know when you have stopped exhibiting the exact same intolerant aspect of folk musical communities that I was drawing attention to.

In other words when we start agreeing with you, you'll get back to us. Don't do us any favours.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:04 PM

As always, you're entitled to your opinion. I don't share it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:59 PM

"He is a man whose opinions differ from yours. No need to be vile. "
Nope - he is a bigotted homophobic hypocrit - pretty vile himself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:54 PM

Lox, I'm sorry for that.

Look, man, you two guys gotta find someway to be able to talk. You are both good people.

If I had any hair left I'd pull it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:49 PM

Conrad, go away and take your garbage friend with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:48 PM

Ok catters, thanks for venting.
Let me know when you have stopped exhibiting the exact same intolerant aspect of folk musical communities that I was drawing attention to.

Glad to have given you all a chance to spew or is that spaw.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:47 PM

Sorry 999

I was not a part of this thread until I was made aware that Ake is up to his old trick of making comments aboout people behind their backs.

That was how I first crossed swords with him months back, when in a thread about race he referred in a disparaging way to a black mudcatter who had not contributed to that thread behind her back.

He is consistent in his mendacity and sliminess.

I stand by my comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:40 PM

He is a man whose opinions differ from yours. No need to be vile.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:37 PM

No Ake,

Its just that you're a dick with no brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:35 PM

Georges Sorel was before Mussolini. FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:31 PM

"Jim, fascist movements do not always have a racial component in their recipe for "setting things right"
We can assume that our friend is referring to modern facsists - BNP, Ku Klux Clan, Le Pen's mob... today's brand of fascists et al, all of whom have adopted racism as their policy - ask Stepeh Lawrence's parents whether today's fascists are racist, they might be able to give you a hint.
Akenaton
"What a fascist looks like."
On the other hand, perhaps they might look like someone who despises people who don't share their sexual preferences and excuses clerical paedophilia - look to thyself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:13 PM

Reach fascists to what end? So they can listen to pretty folk music as they plot to overturn democracy and destroy Europe's remaining Jewry? Let 'em make their own music for Jew-bashing; why should they pollute ours?

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 06:56 PM

""If you project extreme politics or on side left or right in everything you do then you will simply put the wall up and you will fail to reach those on the other side. Sad when there is so much more to music and our need to perpetuate and transmit it.""

It is precisely because we object to extreme politics that we want rid of the fascist, racist thugs of the British Nazi Party.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 06:50 PM

""It was not, like traditional conservatism, exclusively focused on the past, but was a forward-looking, consciously modernist movement.""

Sure was forward looking. A thousand years wasn't it? Then it hit the wall after only twelve.

Pragmatism, innovation and industry were valued. The innate power and energy of the People was praised. Fascism didn't over-think things. Fascism got it done.""

Yes, Fascism got it done.

6 million Jews from all over occupied Europe.
About 20 million Russians.
How many Gypsies, Homosexuals, Poles and Czechs (non Jewish)

And Germany in total ruins.

That's a high order of Pragmatism, Industry, and efficiency, and unremittingly destructive.

Now people like these anonymous Trolls are trying to impress the citizenry with their "British Patriotism", by annexing the music of the very people who fought and died to get rid of them.

Not necessary to alienate them. They are aliens, in the homeland of those who did away with their forebears.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 05:53 PM

Little Hawk, your understanding of fascism, if what you wrote is what you really mean, is sloppy, at best and insulting at worst.

I am sure you/we could come up with a one-word label that fits your description, but "fascist" is not it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 05:26 PM

Are you insisting that I should adopt your belief systems, Richard? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 05:26 PM

I think it's only polite to treat facists in the same way they treat others.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:59 PM

LH - pudding, proof, etc. Read the essential definitions of fascism. Show me a genuinely non-racist fascist organisation. The belief that all absolutists are fascistic in nature is incorrect, unworthy of you, and beneath your usual standard of contribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:53 PM

What a fascist looks like.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox - PM
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:17 PM

Ake,

I'm not running away from you.

I'm right in front of you confirming in absolute and certain terms that I think you are a bigot, a homophobe, a racist, a fantasist and a shit stirrer.

And I will not be apologizing to you.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:38 PM

Jim, fascist movements do not always have a racial component in their recipe for "setting things right". They may, and often have had such a racial bone to pick, but it is not necessarily a defining characteristic of fascism. You can have a fascist system without any racial issues coming to the fore. On the other hand, it is always a defining characteristic of fascists to, as you said, desire to "to rid the world of anybody who doesn't conform to their own beliefs".

However, that is also a defining feature of anyone at all who is aggressively exclusive about his beliefs and thereby intolerant of the beliefs of others.... ;-)

You don't have to be a fascist to want to rid the world of anyone who doesn't conform to your beliefs. You just have to be an intolerant, aggressive, opinionated, self-righteous extremist who thinks his way is the only right way, that's all. Among the ranks of such people are many...

Fascists
Anti-fascists
Communists
Socialists
Democrats
Republicans
Zionists
Jihadists
Black Panthers
Ku Klux Klan
Religious fanatics of EVERY religion imaginable
Political fanatics of every political movement imaginable
Racial fanatics of every race imaginable
Gender fanatics of either gender
Sex-role fanatics of any and all sex roles


Etc.

What I am saying here is that you can find extremely prejudiced and aggressive jerks in any social or political movement if you look hard enough for them...and they aren't very hard to find...because they are the ones who talk loudest and most often, and with the most righteous fury. They KNOW they are "right" and that others are "wrong". ;-D That's what makes them so dangerous.

It is the desire to make everyone "the same" that has covered the world in blood. That existed long before anyone ever heard of "fascism" (a movement founded by Mussolini).

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:35 PM

And as for anyone who says that a person's musical ability outweighs all other things - what if Hannibal Lecter could sing?

The foolish idea that fascism is a legitimate "third way" can be tested by looking at the espousing states - Nazi Germany and Mussolini's Italy.

The idea that the present nazi idealogues and sympathisers participate in genuine political debate can be tested by going to the fake BNP Mudcat, and seeing what the grunts and knuckle draggers there ("Sam Hudson" included) post.

It has been an inherent part of fascist thought since the 1930s that the "Plond Aryan Peast" is a superior type of human and that the swarthy and the negroid, the Jewish and the Roma were pestilential corrupters of the superior genotype (read some of the stuff about spermatic absorption) - all of which led directly to the extermination camps.

Civilised humans know what Dick Griffin and pals are.

That, "Peasant", includes you but it is regrettable that you lower the name of peasantry by adopting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:29 PM

Dont be so hard on yourself Richard !! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:22 PM

All fascists and their apologists are wankers

Subject: RE: BS: Should you alienate Fascists?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:38 PM

Exactly! Build bridges not walls.