BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:44 AM

I provided a link to the law above. Repeat after me.. Oh fuck what's the use.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:31 AM

Sorry, Fossil, Monique, et al., but I don't think it's paranoid to be reluctant to carry something as hard-to-replace and confidential as the IDs you describe "at all times."

My purse and/or wallet has been lost or stolen at least 6 or 8 times over the past few decades, and it was a hassle to deal with that, but nothing like it would have been had my passport, birth certificate, etc., been inside.    Those purses/wallets have been stolen from the trunk of my locked car, the filing cabinet in my university office, a shopping cart (which I never left unattended), the seat beside me in a dance club, etc. My cars have been broken into a number of times; my houses never have been.   I think it's a lot safer to keep valuables at home when not needed.

It is partly BECAUSE I need my driver license or similar ID to do things like travel by air, cash checks, drive a car, make many credit card purchases, etc., that I would probably NOT take that ID with me if, for instance, I went to the beach or swimming pool or hiking in the woods and was not going to be driving.   

I consider it very repressive for a government to require that everyone carry their papers on their person at all times. Might as well inject a microchip into everyone when it's considered a crime to have to tell an officer, "I left my ID at home," if you weren't driving.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:13 AM

Fossil, where is one supposed to carry that ID card when skinny dipping? ; )

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 06:19 AM

While only slightly related in theme, this article points one of the core ideas expressed in this thread:

Pregnant Iowa Woman Arrested for Falling Down

QUOTE
That's right, a pregnant woman was jailed for admitting to thinking about an abortion at some point early in her pregnancy and then having the audacity to fall down some stairs a couple of months later.
.....
Of all the horrible, shocking elements to this case, perhaps one of the worst is the breach of confidentiality on the part of the hospital staff. Christine Taylor came to them emotionally vulnerable in order to seek help for her unborn child. She thought she was in a safe place talking to professionals in whom she could confide. Oops, her bad. As Robert Rigg, professor at the Drake University Law School, said, "How in the heck did the police get a statement made by a patient to a medical person during the course of treatment?
UNQUOTE

If serious stuff ups and breaches like this can not be stopped, why should anybody have any trust in 'public officials'?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Monique
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 05:12 AM

Identity document wiki article. I do carry my ID everywhere. Besides being a legal requirement -though no police officer ever asked me for it so far except at the border when visiting countries we don't need a passport for- I needed it whenever I took an exam, competitive or not, opened a bank account, took a loan, I need it whenever I pay by check or whenever I go to the bank to withdraw a new checkbook if the guy doesn't know me. Besides stating my nationality, on my ID there are my photo, full name, date and place of birth, height, address + the date and place of release, so no big secret. As far as I remember they take our forefinger prints but they don't show on the ID -they used to.
Anybody can be easily traced as soon as they have credit cards and/or cell phones... so much for freedom!
Carrying an ID doesn't mandatorily mean police harassment. IMO, when people are twisted enough to harass you just for the sake of it they usually find a legal way to do it, ID or not.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: GUEST,Fossil, somewhere else tonight
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 03:50 AM

Certainly in Belgium, also I believe in Germany and France it is a *legal requirement* to carry your State ID card with you and to produce it if asked. And most law-abiding people (certainly in Belgium, which is the only place I can speak about with absolute certainty, having lived there for 20+ years), *do* carry their cards everywhere. And if you don't have an ID card in your wallet you had better have something equivalent, such as a passport, to show if you come up against officialdom, or you are in for a hard time.

I mostly carried the card, except in special circs, such as when I went out jogging. But having come across a dead body while running in the Groenendaal forest (a whole other story) and having then had to deal with the police without my ID card, I took to carrying a waterproof pouch round my neck to have it with me at all times, even when wearing sports gear.

I can never really get to grips with why it is that people in the "Anglo-Saxon" world get so het up about the countries who use the ID card arrangement. Mostly, for the average Joe, it seems to work very well.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 03:45 AM

mousethief: " Sanity must be a different place than any I've ever visited."

I'd love to get you there. Once you've been, it's life-changing!
Until then, I guess you can always side with politics!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 03:35 AM

Sanity must be a different place than any I've ever visited.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 02:33 AM

Genie: "GfS, you and some others (mostly of the male persuasion) keep saying it's no big deal to "always" carry your ID card (in your wallet, etc.). But I wonder if you really do, and if so, how big a risk you're taking of identify theft, if that ID card contains all the info an identity thief would need."

NOW THIS IS A REALLY FUNNY POST!

MALE PERSUASION?????...ROFLMAO!!

And keeping my ID with me is no big deal at all, nor am I paranoid of identity theft! Shit, who wants to admit that they're from Sanity?????

Genie: "Do you have your ID card on your person when you're swimming or water skiing or when you're in the shower at the gym.   Aren't there some situations where you don't carry a wallet?    For women it can be even more problematic, because we often carry a purse instead of a wallet, and that can mean the contents are more vulnerable to loss of theft since it's not always on our person."

What?? What do you suggest?...that we all be chipped???? I certainly hope you're not one of THOSE crazies!

Then you go on about Belgium??

Shit, let me tell you, when I'm driving down the street, and see a cop, and being as I live in a reasonably small town, by choice, I wave to them, and they wave back. Being as I'm pretty well known and favorably thought of, and respected, as not having criminal behavior or tendencies, I'm not terrified of the 'heat'!

I'm also a well known musician, who has helped raise over $200,000 for the local community, for those needing financial assistance, without going to the state.

I was stopped about 5 or 6 months ago, for not coming to a full stop, and the state cop, gave me just a warning....I told him, that I had just gotten out of the studio, in the course of our chatting, on the side of the road, and for him being so cool with me, that the next time I saw him, I'd get him a copy of what I was working on recording, the next time I saw him.
That came about 41/2 months later, and I had one in the car, which I turned around, and found him in town(I live just outside town)...pulled up next to him, waited for him to conclude his business with another car he had pulled over, and when he was walking back to his car(it was night), I called to him by name, and asked him if he remembered me. He thought for a moment, and said, "Yes! Hey you owe me a CD!"...Which I was holding up in my hand for him. He cam over to my window and we yakked for a bit...then asked him if he had a CD player in his patrol car. He thought o sec, and replied, "Yeah, I think I do, but I've never used it before"
So I got out of my car, and helped him figure out how to make it work, adjusted the treble and bass, for the right sound, and as the opening notes started, I said to him, Hey, with all the turmoil going on now these days, we could all use some of this!"
As he listened, He just said," Boy, we sure could. This is beautiful"

Moral of the story, which is absolutely true, by the way, is NO, I don't worry about identity theft...nor do I always carry my ID with me!...( Shhhhh... sometimes I don't always 'buckle up', either!)

The best defense is sometimes an offense.....Love might be that!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 01:11 AM

We pay, at the grocery store, far less than the real cost of the food we buy. The rest of the cost is picked up by the underpaid and physically endangered workers, the illegally fouled environment, and the people whose lives are affected by them. If farm workers were paid minimum wage, and their working conditions were required to meet OSHA standards, and the factory farms were really forced to conform to existing environmental regulations, our food would cost a lot more. And we don't want that. So we don't do anything about it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 12:46 AM

Doug R, please read Art Brooks's last post. He beat me to the punch on that "lawful contact" phrase and what it may encompass.

Bill D, I really don't want to take on the whole immigration issue within this thread (which is more about the idea of everyone, including citizens, having to carry and "show papers" on command at all times). But I agree that it's important for any "amnesty" for illegals NOT to allow them to jump line in front of people who have been plodding their way through legal channels for years.   

I also think it's important not to let immigrants - whether illegals or "guest workers" - drive down wages in the US for workers across the board.   

I know "we" love our cheap produce, etc., but if those low supermarket and Wal-Mart prices are purchased at the cost of virtual slave labor -- whether within our borders or in "outsourced" off-shore factories -- then I say we need to rethink our values and priorities.

Maybe if produce and other consumables were not so easy to get hold of so cheaply, we Americans would purchase less and waste a whole lot less.

FWIW, I don't always find the produce, eggs, etc., from the big agribusinesses all that much cheaper than what's available from small local farmers.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 12:22 AM

I don't think that "you haven't come up with a good solution" is a good reason to accept a bad one.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 09:48 PM

DougR, I'd be very interested in seeing an opinion from someone who knows about the law which agreed with your position - which I have seen contradicted by several law professors and other legal experts.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 09:10 PM

Well....lookee here! Immigration reform introduced in Senate

"With an estimated 10.8 million people in the United States illegally, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and fellow Democrats said the first step toward reform must be bolstered U.S. border security.

They also called for creation of a high-tech identification card for immigrant workers, a process to admit temporary workers, "tough sanctions" against U.S. employers who hire illegal immigrants, and, eventually, a path toward U.S. citizenship for people in the country unlawfully.

The Democratic proposal would also "require those here illegally to register with the government, pay taxes, learn English, pass criminal background checks and go to the back of the line to earn legal status," Reid said."



One can argue details, but they obviously see the issues. That "go to the back of the line" seems like a compromise between Ron Davies idea and my own. It 'might' work.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: olddude
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 08:17 PM

i guess i better hold off judgement until i know more if doug is right. too many coflicting statements on the web now

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: DougR
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 08:07 PM

Genie: you are correct. You do not understand the law. My last post outlinging the circumstances under which a law officer can ask to see identification is correct. I guess it's more fun to believe the opposite (much more controversial)but that simply is NOT the case.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 07:36 PM

According to the legal eagles consulted and referenced on Politifact.com, "Lawful contact can occur in many instances when there is no reasonable suspicion of a crime. A consensual encounter, such as asking a police officer for directions, reporting a crime to a police officer, or being a victim of a crime or a witness and being questioned by a police officer, is a 'lawful encounter.' Also lawful are some stops premised on absolutely no individualized reasonable suspicion -- think about DUI checkpoints where everyone is stopped even if there is no individualized suspicion for the stop. The bill is clear that so long as the initial encounter is lawful, a police officer can then ascertain my legal status upon suspicion that I am undocumented." I read somewhere else, but I couldn't find that quote again, that simply saying, "good morning, officer" constitutes a "lawful contact".

I suppose that it's always possible that the Arizona legislature didn't know what they were passing and the governor didn't know what she was signing. I understand the the mayor of Phoenix has asked the city council to consider suing the state to prevent implementation of the new law.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 05:59 PM

Doug, from what I've read of the AZ law, the language isn't that clear. I believe it says something like "any lawful contact" by the police, and that term is too vague to suit me.

We already have hundreds of unarmed people being shot and killed by police because the police officer "thought his life was in danger" or "thought he might be armed."    It is very easy to find some "lawful" reason to stop and question someone.   They spit on the sidewalk or maybe were sitting on it, or they "appeared intoxicated" or they "fit the description" of a suspect or they were jaywalking, etc., etc.   

And if I understand the law correctly, if someone calls the police and says "I think those people in Apt. 2-B at such and such address are illegal," some cops may think that's sufficient reason to ask them to show proof of legal residence.   

Anyway, as I said before, a major intent of this law (not officially, of course) is to make Hispanic US citizens fear harassment (or worse) by the police -- e.g., if and when they try to vote.

Until the AZ officials really start cracking down on the businesses that employ illegals, and making the penalties for them very stiff, I won't be convinced that this law is primarily about deterring illegal immigration.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: DougR
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 05:50 PM

Genie: If you are walking to a bus stop under the new law, a policeman would be in violation of the law if he/she asked to see your papers. That is the misconception that is being reported by just about everyone. The law states that it is against the law to use racial profiling as an excuse to ask for citizenship papers and that the only way a lawman can ask to see your papers is if he is arresting you for ANOTHER crime! Why is that so difficult to comprehend? Example: some calls 911 and reports a suspected "break-in" in the neighborhood. The cops come and arrest those responsible,IF arresting officer has reason to believe the perps are not citizens, he/she can ask for citizenship papers or some other form of identification that proves he/she is in the country legally. Now that is a fact.

Sorcha: You think the new Arizona law sucks. Do you think federal immigration laws suck? Arizona's new law MIRRORS federal law.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:02 PM

Don, it's not just that the Republicans in Arizona fear the influx of NEW legal Hispanic immigrants (who tend to vote Democratic 2:1). This new law aims at disenfranchising Hispanic-Americans who are already citizens -- either by "purging" the voter registration rolls of people whose legal status someone challenges (even if they've been legally voting for decades) or by intimidating citizens of Hispanic ethnicity from showing up to register or vote.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 03:54 PM

Astute comment, that, Art. *g*

GfS, you and some others (mostly of the male persuasion) keep saying it's no big deal to "always" carry your ID card (in your wallet, etc.). But I wonder if you really do, and if so, how big a risk you're taking of identify theft, if that ID card contains all the info an identity thief would need.   Or how big a risk you're taking of a MAJOR ordeal should that card be lost?

Do you have your ID card on your person when you're swimming or water skiing or when you're in the shower at the gym.   Aren't there some situations where you don't carry a wallet?    For women it can be even more problematic, because we often carry a purse instead of a wallet, and that can mean the contents are more vulnerable to loss of theft since it's not always on our person.

Aside from the fact of pockets being picked, anything you routinely carry with you is more vulnerable to loss or theft than something you keep, say, in a safety deposit box or a safe place at home.    That's why people have such safe places to keep really valuable, hard-to-replace documents.   

Canadian citizens working in the US with a "green card" are advised NOT to carry it with them, but to keep it in a secure location, since it is so hard and time-consuming (and expensive) to replace it, and it has such a high black market value.   I think the same goes for things like birth certificates, passports (when you're in your own country), and other documents that contain more "secure identity" info than most driver licenses do.

It's reasonable to expect people to carry such ID as is relevant to the situation. E.g., driver license when driving, making certain monetary transactions, flying, purchasing alcohol (if you look young), applying for a job, etc.   Social Security card when applying for benefits, applying for a job, etc.   Passport when travelling outside your country of residence. Birth certificate when applying for Social Security Benefits and in a few other situations where verification of your age, parentage, etc. is important.
But I think it's a violation of the Fourth Amendment to allow law enforcement to "search" people by demanding that they present such sensitive documents unless they have "probable cause" that a crime is being or has been committed.    They should have to cite specifically what violation you are suspected of and on what grounds (e.g., the sworn testimony of someone else, or tangible evidence). And even in a case where there is probable cause, it is undue harassment to just arbitrarily make you stop what you're doing, take you into custody, book you, etc., if the ID documents they seek could be produced within hours or days without depriving you of your liberty or property (e.g., income) in the process.

Yes, I have my driver license on me 99% of the time when I'm away from my home. I also have credit cards, my cell phone, Kaiser card, asthma inhaler, kleenex, glasses, lipstick, pens, & misc. keys with me too. But I'm not required to carry those, nor would I choose to (except for the asthma inhaler) if I just wanted to take a walk for a few miles.      I hate to think of the US becoming a place where you're not allowed to just bike or walk to a friend's house or a park without carrying something with you.

If I'm walking or on a bus and stopped by a cop who asks "Your papers, please," the first thing I would ask is "Why are you stopping me?" And if there was a good reason for the stop and I didn't have it with me, I'd just say "It's at home." Why should any more explanation than that be needed?


When you say "everyone" in Belgium carries the citizen's ID card "everywhere," I suspect that is an exaggeration. I certainly hope so.

As for the trucker being stopped, the problem was the ignorance of the "low-level functionaries," not his ID.   They should have known it constituted legal residency status.

Would a national ID be better? Probably. As long as it did not contain too much sensitive information ON the card, and as long as you're not required to have it on your person at all times.    If someone steals my VISA card, in many if not most cases, if they try to use it, they will be asked to show other ID such as a DL or to provide other identity info. The credit card issuer has my SSN, mother's maiden name, my address, DOB, etc., but that info is not all ON the card.
Similarly, my DL does not have my SSN on it, even though the state has all my relevant info on file.
If we are going to have a national ID, it should be done in a similar way, with the card itself not having much of that sensitive info on it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 03:48 PM

"Shall we call you Dean Firth?"

Well and Swiftly spotted, Ron!

####

"My family has been for this country since 1789 and fought in seven wars, died in five.

We have earned the right to say who comes here and who does not."

Really? I have a Native American friend who has an interesting take on this kind of jingoisting remark.

####

A blogger who lives in Arizona suggested that all native-born citizens of the State of Arizona should carry identification with them, and every time they see a law enforcement officer, go up to them and insist on showing their identification.

She also pointed out that the problem is not so much the illegal immigrants, but the surge of immigrants who are become naturalized. Now legally permitted to vote, they tend to vote overwhelmingly Democrat. The Republicans, feeling the tide rising, are scared spitless, and are taking desperate measures to try to stop any kind of immigration to the state.

####

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
                                                          —Emma Lazarus

Respectfully submitted for your serious consideration.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: olddude
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 03:06 PM

As a matter of security, as a matter of economics, every country needs to have and enforce their immigration policy. If that policy is not correct then the law needs amended ... That is not any call I am making in any manner. If you have a law ... enforce it, if you don't want to enforce it then throw it out ... However, random stopping of "suspected illegals" at will, without probable cause is against the constitution of the US ...One needs probable cause under the bill of rights. Once we start throwing out portions of the bill of rights like I have been seeing lately, we will fail as a nation. My only point.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 01:46 PM

100

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: John P
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 01:38 PM

I don't have a solution for the problem of illegal immigration, other than possibly bring home all the jobs our large corporations have been allowed to send overseas. If there were plenty of jobs for US citizens, maybe immigration wouldn't be such a problem.

I do have a solution for the state of Arizona directing all police officers to stop anyone they think might be an illegal. All we need to do is, every time they stop a citizen without probable cause, sue the officer, the law enforcement agency, and the state of Arizona.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:40 PM

"It is sad to hear people like Bill essentially say that immigrants are wounding our country and that the wound won't heal if all we do is use band aid fixes... what? he didn't say exactly that? Well that doesn't matter since he still sounds suspicious."

No, I DIDN'T say exactly that. What I DO say is that we have laws that are 'supposed' to regulate immigration. Someone needs to answer the question "Should those laws BE enforced?" If the answer is 'yes', the next question is either "How?" or if the answer in 'no', the next question is "What now?"

Those of you who advocate leniency and 'paths to citizenship' and 'amnesty' need to reflect on 'exactly' what what is implied in such policies.

Ron Davies, at 10:53PM last night said "If you ever make "go home" and get in line a condition for path to citizenship, no illegal immigrant will ever come out of the shadows voluntarily".
Yes, that's probably true....and if you do NOT make it a condition, those who ARE waiting in the legal line in Mexico, who may be suffering, would have a pretty good reason to cry "foul!"

I have seen no answer to this dilemma....do we just shrug and say, "Hey...we give up. No more rules, lines or waiting, since everyone agrees that strict enforcement is too hard and we can't design a fair solution. Everyone just come on over and take your chances about finding homes and jobs...but don't complain when the job market won't support you HERE any better than it did THERE."

This is not about mean ol' Bill wanting to be hard-nosed and demanding nice folks be rounded up like cattle and deported...it's about SEEING the long-term consequences of ANY policy! (drilling for oil in the Gulf leads to spills...nuclear power can bring on Three-Mile Islands... allowing people to build in 10 years flood plains means regular rescue and billions in damages)...and the list is long.

What I did was try to construct a list of consistent policies....I was not suggesting they were 'happy' policies or 'easy' policies. Perhaps MY list can be disputed...but it needs to be disputed by providing BETTER alternatives that ARE more than just a band-aid.

   I can imagine the debates among the Native Americans in the 1600s to the late 1800s..."Should we try to keep these intruders out? Or make friends and accommodate them?" Could it be that no matter WHAT the decision, the result was inevitable? Is it now the case that this country has no choice? If so, the laws need to reflect that, and we need to quit spending money on enforcement and making people take chances walking across those deserts artbrooks describes. If we do that, we need to realistically confront the logistics implied by such a decision....like... how does fairly unlimited immigration affect this new health-care legislation? You can supply many other problems in education, housing, broadcasting...
If we do NOT wish to accept the idea of free-for-all immigration, then someone needs to find GOOD answers to my list. If there are to be any limits, there must be some way to enforce those limits fairly...which means considering those waiting on LEGAL lines, as well as those who snuck in awhile back and were just lucky or good at hiding.

Much of my life has been spent with civil-rights as a background theme. I WANT everyone to be happy, free, respected and comfortable...and I spent time in Mississippi in 1964 advocating for those whose ancestors were forcibly dragged FROM their native lands. I also have spoken out for those whose ancestral lands were invaded by....US... Now I have to decide how to think about 10s of millions who want to come here from Mexico and Central America. I am trained in philosophy, and I SEE the inconsistencies in applying both pragmatism and compassion in this situation....and it hurts!
All that is why I said WAY back up there ^ that:

"From: Bill D - Posts - PM
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 02:25 PM

Some of the various opinions I read above seem very thoughtful and reasoned...and, except in certain cases, very moral and civil......but some of them also start from some arbitrary position with embedded premises, and do not really address or account for some practical considerations."

There is a concept in environmental policy called "carrying capacity"....it is just what is sounds like, the theoretical limits of what any system, large or small, can sustain on an ongoing basis. It can be applied to rats in a cage or to entire continents.....or to the entire planet.

When my father teased my brother & I by asking ."If you were carrying all the feathers you could carry, could you carry one more?", he didn't begin to see all the implications. The problem is, we don't KNOW how many we can carry....and we don't know what may trigger major problems before the theoretical limit is reached. I don't drive way over the speed limit because the danger, from the law and my own reflexes, increases with speed. Some DO. Ask them how they decide.

Ok....most of you quit reading this a long ways back...for those who are still here, or who have skipped to the end, just be aware that I try to insert all the disclaimers and qualifications and explanations I can reasonably (see?) manage in my opinions....and I am STILL not able to divert out-of-context objections. So be it.

The population of Earth is now about 3 times what it was when I was born, and many of those people are not doing well and are unhappy where they are. There are no easy solutions to this. What this thread is about is only a subset of the overall situation. Think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 10:43 AM

This wasn't in the original post: "A representative at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) returned 3TV's calls after researching the incident and she said this was standard operating procedure. The agents needed to verify Abdon was in the country legally and it is not uncommon to ask for someone's birth certificate. She also said this has nothing to do with the proposed bill or racial profiling."

It is worthwhile to note that it was the Feds who pulled this guy over, not the Arizona state or local authorities. That doesn't make it any better, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: olddude
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 08:52 AM

Donuel,
my point about the papers is with probable cause.   You are correct we all have to identify ourselves in many cases. But what concerns me is pulling over ethnic people and ask for papers because of their looks.   Even if a police officer thinks you are DUI but are driving down a road and violating no law they still need probable cause to pull you over. The only way around that is a road check where they check all vehicles. My fear with this is singling out one group of people. That to me is wrong ... my opinion with respect. I don't think this law makes sense, they can check alright, hence by setting up a road block and ask for ID . They do that here, for seat belts for safety inspections, for DUI.   Stopping all cars is legal since no one group is singled out. This law targets a single group and is dangerous I think to walk that road.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:36 AM

Don't you think that if the political parties would uphold the Constitution, of which they swore to uphold, instead of pandering to the interests, which pay them off, that we would be having this problem?? The very fact that they don't should be anyone's clue, that serving this nation IS NOT what they are about!!

There is NO REASON that the illegals cannot come across legally, pay taxes, like the rest of us, and freely go home when they want to their families, and come back again.

We citizens can barely build a shed, without filing an environmental report, as to the impact of the environment, but the same hypocrites who pushed for that, somehow think that 15 to 20 million, people flooding our system should be free to do that unaccounted for. Now does that make sense to you?

I think we can all remember where the police could pull you over, and fill out an FI card. I thought that was a pain in the ass, and did not see the need to be rousted, for nothing! Guess what??...They still can and DO! Now for some ridiculous reason, they can't for checking for citizenship??...and I am not for that, either..but the hypocritical, non law abiding political hacks, in Washington, have made that a 'necessity'..by not doing their job, and ignoring the law of the land!

Then what? I'm supposed to be all excited about 'electing' one of these lying jerks???
'Fraid not!!!
And that goes for most all of them!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Fossil
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:23 AM

pdq = troll. Rest of you, wasting your time.

I spent a long time living in Belgium where the citizen's ID card is the most useful bit of paper anyone can have. Banks, police, pubs, whatever. Flash the bit 'o paper, bearing your photo, which fits neatly into your wallet and which everyone carries everywhere, and you're home free. When you *have* an ID card the words "Your papers please" hold no terrors at all. If you don't, you'll have a lot of explaining to do. Which is the way it should be.

All that trucker's problems could've been solved if his state had had a proper ID card system, instead of leaving it to low-level functionaries to decide what's a proof of his legitimate existence. Given the ass-covering culture that exists in modern bureaucracies, something like this was inevitable. And it will happen again, and again. Mark my words!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:46 AM

You ever been down along that border? Most of it is scrub oak and sagebrush with no water anywhere. Where there are cattle grazing, they speak in terms of 2 or 3 cattle per square mile! "Defend" the border? "Close" the border? There aren't enough soldiers, Guardsmen, Border Patrol officer and FBI agents in existence to do it. Sure, put up a 2 thousand-mile-long, 12-foot-high wall...and anybody who wants to cross it will get a 14-foot ladder and wait for a dark night - or tunnel under. 400-500 people per year are known to die trying to cross that desert - and that is almost certainly a low figure.

Some of you just don't get it. For some of these people, living 15 in a room, getting paid less than half of minimum wage and being under constant threat of being summarily arrested and sent back is worth it...simply because this is better than the lives they lead wherever they come from and because this the only way they can send money home to support their families. They will only go home and stay home if something happens to break that link. At least one estimate I've seen recently said that the number of illegal Mexican nationals in the US decreased from 11 million to 10 million last year simply because the economic bust dried up jobs. Laws like Arizona's will only drive them further underground.

A solution? Damned if I know, but repression and mass deportation ain't it. They'll be right back next month - hiding better, paid less and treated worse. If I were charged with putting some kind of a program together, I think it would include a modern version of the old bracero program, with necessary protections for employees and some assurance that they would go home when their time was up. Most of them would, believe it or not, rather be in Sonora than Alabama or El Salvador than Arizona! Much as I hate to exacerbate anyone's coronary problems, I also think it has to include some type of (oh, that dirty word!) amnesty program. There has to be special consideration for those who came to the US as young children and who have no ties to their "native lands" and to those who were born here of illegal migrant parents (and let's leave "birthright" for another day). I know some of these kids - and they think of themselves as Americans and they are Americans...except for a piece of paper.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: mousethief
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:24 AM

"Invasion"? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

You can't be at war with an abstract noun. It's a bit of political wank which somehow the public fell for. Then again given some of the "public" that have posted on this thread, it's not so amazing after all.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:10 AM

Are we not all of The Family Of Man? (Woman as well)
Borders are nothing but artificial lines drawn upon this beautiful Earth that we all share!
Let us all sing in unison Woody's Refugees!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:04 AM

Good gracious! How do I "do" the boys?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: ichMael
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:33 PM

I'd have to look, but I believe it's Article IV of the constitution that says the feds will ensure each state a republic form or government and protect each state from invasion.

What Arizona has on its hands is an invasion. Illegals pour across the border. They come to the US for the government programs. Can't blame them, but it's hard on the economy.

But if the feds would hold up their part of the statehood contract, the border wouldn't be porous. Aren't we "at war with terrorism?" The first thing you do in a war is shut the borders to protect attack. So why is the Mexican border so open? Arizona had to do something to protect itself.

It'll be interesting to see what the courts say.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:26 PM

So what do we do about ALL this?

















Don: I KNOW, lets put on a play about the AZ law and hire immigrant actors and stage hands!

Bruce: Well you better make sure they're legal first.

Rapaire: I'll check the girls!

Ebbie: I'll do the boys!

Ron: I'll handle the statistics!

Genie:    I think you're missing the point.

Group in unison:   hmm maybe you're right.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:16 PM

I've also pointed out--more than once--that though first generation families are often large (and this has been historically true for many groups), often they realize with education and more prosperity that quality of life is higher with smaller families--and they act on that in succeeding generations.

So extrapolation of large Hispanic families into the future indefinitely is not justified.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:14 PM

"This is a subject that Christians (like Foolstroupe)"

How dare you insult me sir! Watching the behaviour of many of those who publicly and obnoxiously loudly PROFESS such beliefs and demand that others should also convert to THEIR narrow minded hysteria sickens me to the extent of almost regretting my Lutheran upbringing!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:10 PM

"country takes my fingerprints at every opportunity"

One of the things about the US that horrifies Australians! And this is the important continent where critical parts of US Military spy stuff is hidden - even from Aussie citizens - the Aussie Govt has 'no right to even inspect the facilities'! The US No 1 pacific Ally!

Other horrors include frenetic 'hog tie' handcuffing by the Police at any excuse! What about that poor truck driver too? A while ago footage from a US program show a guy whose wife had thrown a hot frypan - probably fat, but could have just been hot water in his face. He was screaming in pain, but was hog tied. At least the cop was human enough to turn the hose on his face AFTER the mandatory hogtieing... what next, the execution after the fair trial?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:09 PM

It is sad to hear people like Bill essentially say that immigrants are wounding our country and that the wound won't heal if all we do is use band aid fixes... what? he didn't say exactly that? Well that doesn't matter since he still sounds suspicious.



This is a subject that Christians (like Foolstroupe) should be quoting Jesus and not racist degenerates like Palin and Hunter. (present company excluded - for now). and yes I meant Jesus and not Haysoose.

I would wager that Latino Immigrants are not a net loss for our country. Even illegals average 1,600 dollars in taxes per year. Hospitals get federal and state subsidies. Schools are desperate everywhere since Wall St. sacrificed 11 million US jobs for a handful of millions of dollars in temporary profits.

I learned today that part of the new AZ law says that any citizen may sue any law enforcment officer who does not do his duty to satisfy the reasonable suspicion law. Now that is another damned if you do - damned if you don't 14 million ton can of worms.

As for the lengthy debate over the validity of a quote regarding 95% percent; 95% is in fact an actual valid statistic, in search of a scenario to fit.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:53 PM

Bill--

I'm sorry:   "go home" and get in line is just wildly off-base.

1)   As I indicated earlier, many have been here so long that "go home" to "country of origin" is a feeble joke.

2)   If you ever make "go home" and get in line a condition for path to citizenship, no illegal immigrant will ever come out of the shadows voluntarily.   Would you, in their place?   I would not.

3) Since they will not voluntarily come forward and "go home" how will you enforce this?   Informants? You know what direction this is leading.

4) If they did all magically get whisked "home", you'd see what a huge hit to the US economy that would cause.   Not anything that should be wished by a thinking person.


It's clear that the proposals put forward by Genie, Art, and I, among others, are the only sensible ones.


Among other things, again, as Genie and I have already pointed out once today, any person truly concerned about illegal immigrants forcing down wages of US workers should be in favor of a path to citizenship for illegals. If they were legal they would not be vulnerable to unscrupulous employers paying less than minimum wage, or otherwise mistreating them, then holding the deportation threat over their heads if they complained. All workers would benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Janie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:46 PM

Bill and Joe,

Well said, both of you.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:41 PM

"One verse in the Bible admonishes humans to "be fruitful & multiply""

No, the scribe misheard him and misremembered it later while sober - He really said - "Have some fruit, it's good for the eyes"!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:39 PM

Jan here!


I was on parole in this country for the first five years that I lived here, according to the INS . "On parole" was stamped into my passport, and that was done every time I came into this country.   And supposedly the UK was the #1 US ally!   It took them four years and a lot of money from us for them to finally give me my green card. I could have been chucked out of the US for any little thing in that time, and I wasn't allowed to leave the country for the first eighteen months. So because of that I didn't see our first grandchild until she was nearly two years old. Now I will have to go through lots more INS nasties to gain citizenship here.

This country takes my fingerprints at every opportunity, and every time I come back into the country from visiting my family in the UK. (It also has my sons and their families' fingerprints. It has all my fingerprints and whole hand-prints several times over. My own country doesn't have my fingerprints at all because I have never done anything wrong. Every person who wasn't born here is treated like a criminal, so why would I ever want to become a citizen of such a paranoid unwelcoming country? The reason for me is I want this nonsense to end, and as I pay taxes and work twelve hours a day I want to have the right to vote so that I can change things here!

Added to this, every thinking person should realize that our families were all immigrants at one point. It's a shame the 1492 Homeland Security didn't take our fingerprints and turn us away.   There but for fortune go I, and we should all recognize this.   Only the Native Americans have a right to complain. They were here before any Europeans.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:38 PM

"... but this law just SUCKS. Let us HOPE that it is NOT upheld"

Yes indeed... THIS law,as written is stupid & unfair.

Bruce.. " since I agree 100% with them."...uh-oh, what did I miss? ☺ I wonder if our motivations are similar?

Let me be clear... I do not LIKE most of the approaches I recommend. Even the most 'fair' ideas are sad and frustrating, as they mean delays and harassment for those involved. There weren't enough lifeboats on the Titantic either, and not everyone in the Oklahoma land rush had a good horse.

One verse in the Bible admonishes humans to "be fruitful & multiply".... I would think that if an omniscient god meant that, he'd have assumed they understood that it didn't mean infinitely.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:02 PM

BillD,

"3) Devise a GOOD way to allow temporary worker to come here....and to be sure they ARE temporary.
4) and...NO amnesty ..any 'path to citizenship will require that everyone identified MUST go home and get in line and file proper applications. "


These are OBVIOUSLY bad ideas- since I agree 100% with them.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:47 PM

Deport me to WHERE? Are they going to cut me up in little peices?
That could be next.

Bill, I have a ton of respect for you, but this law just SUCKS. Let us HOPE that it is NOT upheld when it finally reaches SCOTUS. That could take years.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:44 PM

What makes it "a tough problem" Ron, is what I posted at 2:25PM...check it out...

short version: 'a path to citizenship' solves nothing for the long run, and the approaches by politicians are temporary and self-serving.

When all suggested solutions are only band-aids, the wound will never really heal.

" I don't know anybody who wants to have the situation "drift aimlessly" til it explodes."...right...they just want to delay the explosion till THEY are gone.

You want my solution? It is similar to Will Rogers when he suggested "boil the ocean" as a solution the German submarines. When told that was silly, he replied. "I'm just the idea man, we have experts to figure out how."

I suggest that we must 1)Begin to control population...worldwide. 2)Work with Mexico (the biggest immediate concern) to **control** borders, and also to stop the drug cartels IN Mexico, much as we approached it in Colombia, as this is causing a lot of the fear in Mexico and adding to the desire to leave. 3) Devise a GOOD way to allow temporary worker to come here....and to be sure they ARE temporary. 4) and...NO amnesty ..any 'path to citizenship will require that everyone identified MUST go home and get in line and file proper applications. 5)a total end to the idea that 'a child born here gets automatic citizenship, and thus special treatment for his family.....and.... 6)NO drivers licenses for illegals. If someone is already breaking the law, certifying that they know how to drive is irrelevant.

and maybe 7,8 & 9 ....but those may be harder than boiling the ocean.

Yes... I see all the objections to my suggestion, but *I* see the problems with all *I* have heard so far. I don't expect a BIG explosion, but rather, an increasing number of small ones as hot-headed bigots begin to react in classic hot-headed bigot ways until this situation begins to resemble the border wars in the Middle East.

...and OH, would I love to be proven wrong and see quiet diplomacy and international cooperation deal with the basic problems, instead of the 'band-aids until someone else has to cope with it' approach.

Now, I guess I'd better go brace myself for the sputtering and metaphorical bricks

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:37 PM

"We could employ even more people to build gas chambers and dig mass graves"

You're a bit late Don - if you had been keeping up with the net conspiracies - think they even been here on Mudcat - there ARE already such large constructions all around the US, ready for just such a contingency....

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:16 PM

Ron, am I the only person concerned that the Roberts SCOTUS just might finagle some way to rule this IS constitutional?

And that the only way to avoid the charge of "racial profiling" would be to start randomly checking ALL people in the US - even when they're not at work or driving or voting or anything like that?    (You're in your Speedo at the beach and you get arrested and hauled off to the police station because you chose not to take your wallet with you?)

And that, since carrying around valuable, sensitive identification documents isn't safe, the solution is to implant a microchip into every person, from birth or whenever the law takes effect, whichever comes later?

The illegal-immigrant problem notwithstanding, my concern in this thread is about the possibility that we are moving toward Nazi Germany, etc., where all of us have to be able to prove, at any moment, that we are not breaking the law by actually living and breathing here.