BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?

Subject: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:26 PM

One really has to wonder. After all, he grew up among them (although they are referred to as the Great Apes rather than gorillas in the Edgar Rice Burroughs books, but they certainly seem to be some kind of gorillas). Tarzan would have been surrounded by these apes during his entire childhood and adolescence, he thought of them as family, and wild apes are known to be quite uninhibited about having sex in the presence of other wild apes, so he must have witnessed a good deal of it while he was growing up.

Is it reasonable to assume that after the onset of puberty he would have partaken of the same earthly delights that he saw other adolescent apes engaging in? I think so.

Still, Burroughs makes no reference to any such goings-on in his tales of Tarzan. Nor, come to think of it, does he refer to such goings-on amongst human beings either in those tales....aside from some passionate kissing and a bit of bodice-ripping and groping here and there when evil characters menace the heroine in this or that story...

So, what's the deal here? I'm betting that Tarzan did the horizontal bop with numerous willing ape partners in his youth, perhaps in later years too, and that Burroughs engaged in a coverup of those activities in order to avoid breaking the censorship laws of the time and get his books published.

I have to ask Chongo what he thinks about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Bert
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM

Is Chongo a male? If so he probably wouldn't fancy Tarzan.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM

" Is it time for another stupid question?"

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:37 PM

Very good, Bill. ;-) You noticed. Thanks!

Bert, yes, Chongo is a male. It's not that I think he's sexually attracted to Tarzan, but I still think he might have some inside information, as it were. He has always admired Tarzan, and considered him "almost simian"...

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:40 PM

"Since this thread is likely to be controversial, no guest posts will be permitted." Out. (But not like that.)

David E.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:55 PM

ERB lived here in Pocatello, Idaho and began some of his best work here, writing as his stationery store failed (the site today is that of a taxi office and a parking lot). I can assure you that he lived and worked amidst the most genteel society, associating only with the best of the best (which at the time was very good indeed). One must assume that his environment and his milieu affected his writing, so I would say no, Tarzan was celibate until he met Jane and they were properly introduced (remember, Tarzan was in actuality an English Lord). After a suitable period of courtship and betrothal would come marriage and then certainly, Jane would "think of England" in their treetop cottage. But I am certain that Tarzan, being "Lord of the Apes", would never stoop to the "droit de Seigneur". To do so just wouldn't be, you know, British.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: gnu
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:58 PM

Are shrooms in season in Uppity Canada, LH?

Did Tarzan fuck gorillas? That is some sick shit, LH.

Never woulda happened. The boss gorrila woulda ripped Tar's nuts off if he had even tried.

Tar probably jacked off in the bushes watching the GREAT apes get their grapes off.

Yeah... I know SINS... cellar... twice in one day too... but that'll probably be it for me as I can't go all day and night anymore. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: gnu
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:59 PM

Hmmmm... I wonder if GEORGE of The Jungle... nevermind.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:12 PM

Perhaps the right question is "Did gorillas do it to/with Tarzan?"

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:17 PM

Yes, that question has occurred to me too, Bill. I would think that the young Tarzan would have had to watch his back, as the saying goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:23 PM

LH-

Thanks for initiating a thread which deals with cultural issues associated with Edgar Rice Burroughs's fantasies. I remember well how our crew aboard the Stout Heart used to while away the dog-watches taking turns reading such stories. The challenge was to "creatively read" the stories, to see how far you could stray before someone realized you were making it up. There were severe penalties for those who challenged you only to find out that you were literally sticking to the arcane text.

But with regard to the matter at hand, so to speak, there was no literal sex between any of the characters, great ape or otherwise.

One would think by the time Tarzan got to Mars, something more sexy (other than the book cover) would be happening but it was all a big let down.

Now there was racism and ethnocentrism galore in Burroughs's stories, but who would be interested in a discussion of that?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:36 PM

I don't think Tarzan would have developed that ecstatic yodel from just wanking off.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:10 PM

I believe that Rapaire has the right of it. I can hardly imagine that young John Clayton III, Lord Greystoke, with all that English blue blood, would possibly behave in an untoward manner.

Now—John Carter and Dejah Thoris! That was a whole other world!!   CLICKY.

Careful! You don't want to cast asparagus on Tarzan's character and get him all pissed off!   "Go get him, Muffy!!"

####

Actually, mouse, the "yodel" came from the time Jane had accidentally fallen into a pool of quicksand. Tarzan couldn't get to her without getting trapped himself, so he told her he would take a long vine and swing out over the pool, and that she should reach up and grab the vine as he swung over her.

He grasped the vine, leapt off the tree branch and swung out over the pool of quicksand. Jane made a desperate grab and the yodel was born!

The yodel translated roughly as, "The vine, Jane! I said grab the vine!!!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: gnu
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:18 PM

Ahhh... Don... that second link... was that a mistake? On accounta, if it wasn't, I will never click a link of yours again. That really is sick. Stomach turning sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:23 PM

Care to explain, gnu? What do you find so sick about it?

Only one of a number of illustrations on the "image" page of Google. I believe it's possibly one of Frank Frazetta's Tarzan illustrations.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:12 PM

Jaysus Murphy, gnu! I don't know where the hell that came from!!

I linked to a Frazetta or Vallejo painting of Tarzan urging a very large male lion forward.

I checked back and that was NOT the illustration that I linked to!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:22 PM

Yeah, suuuure, Don..... ;-) Sure. You despicable cad, sir, you have finally been revealed for the closet pervert you really are. Your Tarzan books and John Carter of Mars books will be taken away, and you will be subjected to fifty lashes on the bare behind with the cat o' nine tails, then placed in solitary confinement, and made to consume only stale bread and water for the next 30 days while you meditate upon your sins.

I would agree with gnu. That is the most awful link I've ever seen in my life. Chongo dropped in to help out with this fascinating subject and unfortunately he was here when I clicked the link. He uttered a piercing shriek, leaped about 6 feet in the air, did a couple of somersaults, and rushed off to the washroom. I distinctly heard retching sounds. He came back looking pale (if a chimp can look pale) and shaken. He says you owe him an apology.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:22 PM

I suppose that was put up as somebody's idea of a turn-on; as such, I rank it right up there with the actual photographs of Jack the Ripper's victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:26 PM

My brother found an old Esquire magazine from the early 70's that had an interview of Tarzan by Philip Jose Farmer {sp?}. It's worth a read and explains why ERB got so many of the details wrong. Lord Graystoke was not amused.

By the way - Tarzan visited the earths core but not Mars.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:37 PM

Tarzan Alive - The book

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:37 PM

It was John Carter who visited Mars. Unlike Tarzan, who was the son of a British noble family, John Carter was an American, a westerner, I think. He seemed to have the same basic manly character traits as all ERB heroes, though. Very predictable stuff. The women on Mars wore virtually nothing but a few bits of strategically placed jewelry, and they were all young, feisty, and gorgeous....I gather it was ERB's idea of heaven. ;-)

It is true that in present day terms ERB's books are full of what we would now term racism and ethnocentrism...not to mention sexism...but he wasn't writing in OUR time, he was writing in his time, and the audience he was writing for had a different focus on things. I doubt that they were offended. They would, however, be terribly offended were they to see our present day entertainment, and they'd probably think we were a bunch of barbarians.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:40 PM

John Carter was from Virginia. As far as he remembered he always appeared to be about 30 years old and never remembered his childhood. He guessed he was close to 100 the first time he went to Mars.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:45 PM

He went to Mars through some kind of mysterious process that was never fully explained. Something like transmigration of the soul and re-embodiment, as far as I recall. He found himself standing naked and unarmed on the Red Planet, and had to deal with the situation. Luckily he had the natural fighting skills of Sir Lancelot, Richard the Lionheart, and Wyatt Earp, and immediately took charge of the situation, despite being attacked by 8-limbed greenskinned Thark warriors and vicious 8-limbed Martian beasts. Pretty good for a guy from Virginia, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:51 PM

He went to Mars through some kind of mysterious process that was never fully explained. Something like transmigration of the soul and re-embodiment, as far as I recall.

At least when Malachi Constant went to Mars, the method was completely explained: the pyro synclastic infundibulum.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:52 PM

We would expect nothing less. After all - he was an American.

Funny - I just got out the first three Martian books to re-read after all these years and this thread pops up. The first hardback books I ever owned were given to me by my Grandfather. The farmer { and fiddler } from North Dakota. The were Tarzan the Terrible, Tarzan and the Jewels of Opar, Tarzan and the Ant Men and The Gods of Mars. I suspect that the Jewels of Opar was a first edition. My mother and Uncle Jim would get to listen to two or three chapters per night read aloud if they got all their chores done that day. Now THATS the way to enjoy a book. Just like an old movie serial.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:52 PM

Ah, yes. That makes everything clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:11 PM

Hmmmmmm....

Willen Dafoe as Tars Tarkas??

Due in 2012 : John Carter of Mars film info

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:17 PM

Okay, so ya wanna know, do ya? Okay then. First of all, Edgar Rice Burroughs was not writin' pure fiction when he wrote them Tarzan stories. No siree. He was talkin' about real events which was true...but he embellished the truth a whole lot and he made up stuff too. The basic story is reasonably accurate. There was this English baby human that got took from castaways that died unfortunately, and the baby was raised by a band of chimps. That's right, chimps. It's a damn good thing it was chimps and not gorillas, because the kid would never've amounted to nothin' if he got raised by gorillas. It was a mean gorilla that killed his parents, see? But a kindly female chimp saved the baby, and that baby grew up to be...wouldja believe...Lord of the Jungle? Ya wouldn't, would ya? Okay, he didn't exactly grow up to be Lord of the Jungle, but he still did more than okay for himself and earned a good place among both chimps and humans, not to mention a permanent spot in the books and movies. Not shabby at all.

Now, the sex part...well, I figure that Tarzan had lotsa sex with various chimpettes, that is my guess. I mean, why wouldn't he? They are good lookin', fun, uncomplicated in their demands, and if they're willin' only an idiot would say "no". You follow? This guy was not an idiot. If he was, he never woulda made it to puberty.

I had relatives who met this Tarzan guy in his prime, and they said he was a cool dude, not a bad tree climber, dynamite on climbin' vines, and had a yell that could scare the balls off a Cape Buffalo. He did at least half the stuff he is now famous for, and he did eventually go back to England and become a Lord there. He also fought for the rights of primates in human society. The best movie that's been made about him was the Greystoke one that had Andy McDowell in it (Hoo-Hah! I would invite her up to the treehouse ANY time.).   There was a French guy acting as Tarzan in that movie, and he did a great job.

You wanta know about Tarzan? Rent that movie. It is as close to the truth as you are gonna get.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:36 PM

Hah! Tarzan was based on a guy here in Pocatello named Tartanolos Zanapolos, a Greek railroad worker. ERB just jammed his first and last names together and came up with "Tarzan". He was called "Tart" by the folks in town and he was tough! He used to swing along the telegraph wires to go someplace, which is where ERB got the idea for Tarzan swinging on the vines. When Tart would go into a bar down his first bottle of Ouzo each day he'd let out a yell that would drown out the train whistles. One day some wild Texas cattle broke out of a cattle car and Tart hit the lead bull between the eyes with his fist, knocking that one-ton critter out cold and scaring the rest so much the went back into the cattle car out of fear. Tart did not wear the loincloth like Tarzan did, though -- he wore railroad overalls. He was also one of the illegitimate sons of the King of Greece, and when he finally went back he was treated like the royalty he was.

Ain't nothing Chongo sayin' is true. He just made all that up.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:59 PM

So Tarzan even as a baby was an Englishman with all that denotes? Reminds me of a friend of mine who had a co-worker who said that her mother was Japanese and therefore Co-worker couldn't pronounce l and r correctly. sheesh

Another sheesh You guys prefer to ignore anatomical facts, evidently. You might note that gorillas and all the ape family are sized differently from humans.

Tarzan would kill them.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 12:33 AM

Yeah??? How would you know that? You been screwin' gorillas?

As fer you, Rapaire, you are one hell of a liar...but yer good at it. I think you woulda done well on the primate vaudeville circuit, cos we all appreciate a really good liar who can tell a great story.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 12:46 AM

I suspect LH is displacing his guilt onto fictional characters...

Liebenscheiss

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 01:04 AM

My guilt about what?

I suspect Amos is engaging in transference via a fictional character. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 01:47 AM

lol Just who is engaging in transference via a fictional character? Little Hawk, take a look at your long history of posting - If it were someone else's writing, might it not give you pause?

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 01:52 AM

You guys ruined a perfectly good thread with all this silliness about chimpanzees. Sheesh.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:02 AM

If Amos's writing were someone else's writing, Ebbie, it would give Amos pause, would it not? ;-) The same goes for any number of people who post here. We all have an amazing tolerance for our own bla-bla and bilgeroar, but not nearly so much patience with that which emanates from others.

I personally find my fictional characters delightful, and I never tire of them. Amos probably feels that way about Herr Liebenscheiss.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 03:06 AM

Well, why not ask the man himself! If you can find him. Author Philip Jose Farmer in his book "Tarzan Lives" claims that Tarzan is infact a real person and that he interviewed him. Tarzan - as I'm sure you all know - went through some sort of ritual which gave him a greatly expanded life expectancy and so, although he is well over 100 years old now, he would still be in great shape - and, maybe, still into shagging gorillas.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 03:29 AM

FWIW, the average male gorilla has a penis that is less than two inches long. One must assume that the female has a comparable organ. (I don't know what that says about chimps. Poor Chongo.)

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 05:42 AM

The anatomical (dimensional) mismatch between humans and chimpanzees is reportedly less than for a human/gorilla pairing, however it is unlikely that Chongo would be a particularly satisfying mate for a human female, since it is reliably reported that the average copulation by a male chimp lasts approximately 8 seconds. Some human females have been known to remark that this is not much different than for their usual (human) mates; but those reports don't typically come from "satisfied" ones, and a degree of sarcastic exaggeration is suspected.

It is equally unlikely that a human male would make much of an impression on female chimps, as for male chimps in the wild - the ones with access to females - the expected rate of copulations for mediocre average performers is 16 to 28 times per day. Any attempt by a "Tarzan" to match the performance of a typical chimp competitor would have him "shooting dust" by the time the bored females were chomping their first morning leaf for breakfast.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Amergin
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 07:02 AM

Yeah I've heard Tarzan and Dian Fossey had swingers parties back in the day.....

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 07:50 AM

Now I don't know if Tarzan did or didn't but reminds me of something a young black minister once told me: "You can make love with a gorilla but ya' gotta do it on the gorilla's terms"... Now that comin' from a man of the cloth so maybe he knew something that most folks don't know???

No matter, I'd like to think that Tarzan got a little on the side 'cause there's more to life then beatin' yer chest and swingin' from trees...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 08:23 AM

That is silly, LH. However, Jane and the chimp had a thing going, but he wasn't monogamous, hence she called him "Cheetah".

I'll get me loincloth.

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 11:05 AM

Although it was not our fault, we at BP have instructed our subcontractors to make all reasonable efforts to cap the gusher. A close inspection of the satellite photo will reveal that a platform is already being constructed from which to drill a relief well. In addition, we are assembling teams of unemployed fishermen to help with clean-up efforts.

As to thread-relevant issues, it is our opinion that Tarzan would have been no less celibate growing up in a troupe of apes than he would have been growing up in one of the mother country's public schools, as eech ful kno.

Meanwhile, we are keeping the president informed, and we would like to assure the general public that there is no cause for alarm.

Happy motoring,
BP (Bob the Postman)

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 11:46 AM

You know, Tart is still around and kicking the butts that needs kicking. Still drinks a bottle of ouzo every morning, too -- says that and tirapataki and baklava are all a REAL man needs to live forever, and an entire roasted sheep for dinner. And a little, well, ah, female companionship. He moved back here from Greece just before the Nazis invaded, sent back by his Dad to be ready to take over the country when the monarchy is restored. Tart says he believes in the old Greek philosophy thing and takes everything in moderation, including moderation.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM

He sounds like a credit to his nation, Rapaire.

Well....LOL!!! Some marvelous stuff in the latest posts above. Grand work, people! I had no idea this thread would evolve so rapidly and amusingly as it has. Just think...if chimps had evolved this rapidly we would probably be looking out through the bars of our cages at THEM now instead of the other way around!

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 01:28 PM

Whadda ya mean 'almost simian'? Simian refers to the whole group of higher primates including great apes, humans, monkeys. To be 'almost simian' implies something more like a sloth.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 01:56 PM

Yeah...but in the present political climate, Les, with chimpanzees, gorillas, other apes, and monkeys fighting for equality, dignity, and job opportunity, the word "simian" has taken on a colloquial meaning. In the present vernacular, it does not mean "human", it means other kinds of primates.

It's kind of like the word "Black" which is now universally used for negroid peoples. They are NOT literally black. They are various shades of brown. Nevertheless people choose to call them "black".

You can't get literal about this kind of stuff, you have to understand it in its current cultural context. The words "simian" and "primate" in the present cultural context are interpreted as meaning "not human", but of the ape or monkey species.

To use them otherwise could get you accused of specism. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:10 PM

Yes I know what you mean. Somebody gets it wrong and so we all have to get it wrong. The same thing happened to the word 'semitic'.

Anyway: (courtesy of the Goon Show)

There was a young man from Cathay
On a slow boat to China one day
Was trapped near the tiller
By a sex-crazed gorilla
And China's a bloody long way.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:33 PM

He's also the model upon which Tarzan was created. ERB and Tart used to be drinkin' buddies, whenever ERB was sober enough to drink. The stories old Tart could tell would make your hair stand on end, only he only can tell them in Dorac Greek. Fortunately, Dora is usually nearby to translate for us. NOTE: This is not "Dora the Explorer", which is a good thing because most of these are not tales fit for children and other human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 03:54 PM

LH-

There was a book titled TARZAN ON MARS but it was an unauthorized publication.

Here, however, is proof that Tarzan actually reached Mars and had his portrait painted there: click here for image!

So stuff that in your banana leaf!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 04:35 PM

Gosh, Charlie...I can't argue with that. But, wait...could that be Mark Trail in a loincloth? I think it's a possibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 04:41 PM

Considering the density of foliage on Mars, I'm sort of wondering what the vine is attached to. A sky hook?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 04:50 PM

The vine is probably attached to one of those hovering warships the Martians fight their battles with. They sort of resemble those big hovercraft that cross the English Channel, but they can hover at much higher altitudes. The Martians (or better said, the citizens of Barsoom) prefer to fight at high altitude for some reason....maybe because it's cooler up there....maybe because it allows for the fighters to fall screaming to their deaths far below, which is much better from a dramatic perspective than just directly falling a few the ground in the usual manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 05:01 PM

No, Charley, I will not "click here for image!" as you suggest. Not in this thread. Once bitten, twice shy; and as for the end WITHOUT the teeth, even more so.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 05:21 PM

The second link of Don's (which I figured was a mistake when I saw it, knowing Don) now gives me this:

        
The page is too stupid
The page you are looking for is currently too stupid. The Web site might be experiencing idiot writers, or you may need to adjust your browser settings to accept more retarded objects.

Please try the following:

    * Click the refresh.gif (82 bytes) Refresh button, or begin drinking heavily. After enough shots, SOMETHING will appear.
    * If you typed the page address in the Address bar, make sure that it is spelled correctly. If you are an AOL user, make sure you did not accidentally type your street address in the bar.
    * To check your connection settings, click the Tools menu, and then click Internet Options. On the Connections tab, click Settings. However, since you're running Windows, there's absolutely jack shit of a chance that you'll resolve anything. Ever.
    * If your Network Administrator has enabled it, Microsoft Windows can examine your network and automatically discover network connection settings. If you actually have a Network Administrator who has enabled it, please raise your hand. Yeah, that's what we thought.
      If you would like Windows to try and discover them,
      click Detect Settings Detect Network Settings . This will do absolutely nothing and will resolve no problems whatsoever.
    * Some sites require 128-bit stupidity. In the case of Ratio Semper, a patch will be shortly available which makes 256-bit stupidity possible.
    * If you are trying to reach a secure site, make sure your Security settings can support it. Click the Tools menu, and then click Internet Options. Change whatever you want; people will find a way to steal your credit card number regardless.
    * Click the Back button to try another link. Yes, let's go with that: try another link.

Page is Too Stupid
Internet Explorer

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 05:52 PM

Bob-

I can hardly blame you. That image was terrifying, to be sure.

But LH and Don survived following the link...

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 06:08 PM

Yeah, but Chongo is still upset about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 08:42 PM

I don't know who or how, but I still suspect enemy action.

I have since gone to the link (using the URL) and it was the picture I was linking to. Tarzan and a large male lion who was about to charge (as in "Go get him, Muffy!").

I contacted Joe right away when I saw the picture that gnu alerted me to. I'm not sure why he linked to the "stupid" message, but it's better than the picture.

In case anyone wants to try it on their own, this was the URL of the photo I was going for.

http://weirdscifi.ratiosemper.com/tarzan/images/Dh04v4.jpg

It's a collection of paintings of fantasy and science fiction scenes and characters (such as Tarzan and the lion), some of which I recognized as having been used as paperback book covers.

Considering what happened before, I make no guarantees at this point.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 08:45 PM

Don, knowing far too much about the Web than is good for me, you aren't at fault. Some perv's idea of a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 08:56 PM

Yeah, Rap, that's got to be it. A real sick-o!

Actually, I've got a hunch or two. . . .

####

Since it's turned out to be a slow day here at the Skunk Works, I decided that I would make book. Taking bets.

In a no-holds-barred, butt-kicking, eye-gouging knock-down-drag-out between the huge, ape-like Chewbacca and the nine-foot green reptilian with four arms and tusks like a warthog, Tars Tarkas, who would you put your money on?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 09:00 PM

The green dude. Chewbacca's got too much hair to latch onto and use against him.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 09:43 PM

Don's link, copied from *view source* was:

http://weirdscifi.ratiosemper.com/tarzan/images/Dh04v4.jpg.maybebadlink

If you just copy it and knock off that strange ending, you get the tame image he intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:00 PM

Hell yes and the result made it to the cover of Nat Geo

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:08 PM

So there might well be claimants to British nobility out in the Wilds?

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:27 AM

That's the one, Bill!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:42 AM

Don and Bill-

I still get the "bad link" image regardless of what I do.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 02:09 PM

To get back to the original question:

It depends upon what "do" and "it" means. Parcheesi? Checkers? Duplicate bridge? Eating grubs?

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 02:21 PM

Rap... check for bees?

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 02:59 PM

Charlie, maybe the reason you're still getting the nasty picture is that, having gotten it once, it's stored as a temporary file in your computer. I know that my computer (HP laptop with Windows XP) will automatically store a copy of practically every web page I visit, so that if I visit the page again, it doesn't have to download it again. To save time, it simply pops up the temporary file that it stored previously.

Every couple of days, I clean out cookies I don't want and dump temporary files. Frees up space on my hard disk and even though reloading a particular web page may take a couple seconds longer, it loads a new copy, not the older temporary file. Also, my computer runs faster in general without all the extraneous temporary internet files.

One way to dump temporary internet files (if you're using Windows Interned Explorer) is to click on "Tools," then, on the pull-down menu, click on "Delete Browsing History."

No guarantees, but that may get rid of it.

Don Firth

P. S. Here we go!

Go to http://weirdscifi.ratiosemper.com/tarzan/images/

That will take you to "Index of/tarzan/images." Then, scroll down about thirty-some lines to "Dh04v4.jpg" and click on it. That should take you to the picture (Tarzan and the lion) I was trying to post.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM

Don-

I suspect you're right. Once you get bit by these website pirates it's hard to shake them off.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:21 PM

Don-

Yep, now I see Tarzan and his lion pal racing toward me looking rather intense.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:26 PM

Here's a "hot" movie still of Tarzan and Jane: click here for image!

In that outfit it must have been fun watching Jane swing through trees.

Woof, woof!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 05:09 PM

Boy, talk about PHONY! They both look like they just stepped out of a Beverley Hills hairdressing salon! ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 05:16 PM

For instance....where does Tarzan get his clean shave whilst living in the jungle amongst apes? One has to wonder. ;-) Have those tender tootsies of he and his paramour ever trodden on the bare ground??? Has he consumed succulent grubs, groomed his ape friends for ticks, and wrestled in the dirt with ravening lions? Hard to imagine.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 05:26 PM

Not just before a photo shoot. I assume the studio would look down on such behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 07:39 PM

I've always wondered where Tarzan got his knife -- and isn't that a bit of a "spare tire" showing above his loincloth?

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: GUEST,Rapaire
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 07:42 PM

That last one was me. I accidentally deleted my cookie and it's all Don Firth's fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 08:05 PM

Rapaire-

It's more of an inner tube than a spare tire to be charitable to Tarzan.

Jane's top, on the other hand, does seem rather revealing for the time and period.

When I first viewed her attire my cookie was deleted as well!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 08:11 PM

Oh, my. Beasitality (spelling?) is disturbing, but my stomach can
handle it. I did watch Clerks II. I read in the newspaper that there
is evidence that humans interbred with neandrothols (sp?), so I guess
that it's possible that Tarzan mated with gorillas.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 08:17 PM

Well, I am a confirmed cookie thief, but they're usually the edible kind. . . .

Fantasy, Little Hawk, fantasy! Ya gotta get with the program. One knows, of course, that one might get a bit stubbly if one finds oneself too far out in the wilderness to plug one's Remington shaver in, even with a fairly long extension cord, but one looks past that and, for the sake of soaring to great heights of mystery and imagination, embraces the exigencies of the mythology.

For example, Helen of Troy: portrayed by Rosanna Podesta in one movie like THIS ("Is this the face that launched a thousand ships and burned the topless towers of Ilium?"), considering that her mother was Leda, a human female, and her father was Zeus in the form of a giant swan, if there is anything to heredity at all, in reality, Helen would probably have looked more like THIS!

Ursula Undress Andress, in the movie version of H. Rider Haggard's "She," looked pretty damned good for being 2,000 years old! We know that it's unlikely that anyone, even a legendary queen ruling over a lost city in the wilds of the jungle, would live quite that long, no matter how lovely and magnetic she might be. But—what does reality have to do with it?

Yeah! Johnny Weismuller, fifth actor to portray Tarzan. Former Olympic swimming champion—five gold medals—AND reputed to have invented the Tarzan yodel, although Weismuller himself said that it was a phonied-up yell composed by recording three "vocalists:"   a soprano, and alto, and a hog-caller.

Honestly, I'm not making this up!!

And Maureen O'Sullivan. She appeared in some 68 movies altogether, six of the Tarzan movies with Weismuller. In later Tarzan movies, they tended to clothe her a bit more because the first ones were before the Hays Office Decency Codes, and the claim was made that her earlier, scantily-clad portrayals of Jane may have damaged her movie career. But—68 movies altogether between 1930 and 1988? Doesn't sound like it. Died at age 87. By the way, she was Mia Farrow's mother.

Edgar Rice Burroughs hated the way Hollywood was portraying his legendary swinger, but he thought Weismuller was pretty good. He didn't like the fact that Tarzan (John Clayton, Lord Greystoke, and quite well educated, in fact) was portrayed in movies as being next to inarticulate. Tarzan managed to teach himself to read with books his father had salvaged out of the shipwreck, then later, in England, he received at least a modicum of additional education and could have seamlessly taken his place as Lord Greystoke. But he hated the hypocracy and wheeling and dealing he saw around him and decided to return "home" to where his adoptive family (the Great Apes) and the other animals were more honest and straightforward.

Actually, toward the end of his stint as Tarzan, Johnny Weismuller was starting to develop a bit of a gut. But then. . . .

Three artists who were involved in drawing the earlier Tarzan comic strips were Hal Foster, who later drew "Prince Valiant," Alex Raymond, who later drew "Flash Gordon," and Burne Hogarth, who drew a number of comic strips, along with doing a book on drawing the human figure, which may very well have spawned the hyper-muscular portrayals of Superman, Batman, and the general Marvel Comics "Superhero" style.

When I was in my early teens, I drew and sketched a lot, and had aspirations of becoming a comic strip artist. Used to follow these guys pretty closely.

Don Firth

P. S. Considering the weird hanky-panky going on behind the scenes with my attempts to make links, if you want to risk it, here's an arboreal Family portrait.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 08:57 PM

I've wondered about Boy. Couldn't Lord Greystoke come up with a better name than that? And since they lived in a treehouse, how did Jane get around while preggers? And as for Cheetah, well, Gary Larson chronicled their last meeting after the "Jane" incident....

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:34 PM

It's the fault of those stupid fuckers in Hollywood, Rapaire! The real name of Tarzan's son in the books was not "Boy", it was Korak (which meant "The Killer" in ape language), so named in adolescence for his fighting abilities, which were considerable. Tarzan's apes seem to have believed, like the American Indians, that someone should receive a new name upon entering early adulthood, one that has symbolic significance.

Hollywood chose to call him "Boy" instead, because they assumed that their audience is too stupid to handle a foreign name like "Korak".

Further errors by Hollywood:

1. Tarzan, as Don pointed out, was not inarticulate and did not speak like the village idiot ("Me Tarzan. You Jane. Jane like go for swim now?") Uh-uh! Tarzan spoke good English and completed all his sentences using proper tenses, articles, and even adverbs. He'd have put present day American youth to shame in his mastery of the English language.

Again, Hollywood figured the public wasn't smart enough to be able to handle that!

2. Tarzan had a small monkey companion...not in the original books...but in the Tarzan comic books, and that monkey was named "N'kima"...which is a pretty cool name, I think. It sounds legit.

Hollywood figured that the public was too stupid to handle a rare name like "N'kima", so they changed it to "Cheetah", the name of a big cat. How stupid can you get? As stupid as a Hollywood screenwriter and producer...that's how stupid!

Hollywood was also too set in their ways to bother using a monkey for the part of Tarzan's companion when they already had a stable of trained chimpanzees on hand...so they used a young chimpanzee instead of a monkey.

3. In the books Jane was a cultured young woman, a member of the English aristocracy, and she acted and dressed like such a person. She has been accurately portrayed in only one film, which was the one that Andy McDowell was in ("Greystoke - the legend of Tarzan of the Apes"). In all the other films she has been a blousy blonde American woman who seems not like a member of the English aristocracy, but like your typical Hollywood starlet...there to scream, flaunt her body, and get rescued, but not much else.

More fodder for the movie-going masses, whom Hollywood clearly regards as complete morons.

4. In the movies, Tarzan almost always calls for elephants to come and save him at some point. This is a major departure from the books, I can assure you, but Hollywood does it just because they LOVE filming an elephant stampede.

*****

Don, you made some good points there. ;-) Look, I know its fantasy, I just think they coulda done way better than these cleancut shorthaired guys who look like they just stepped out of a Wildroot Cream Oil ad...or a Burmashave ad...or something along that line.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 12:10 AM

Well, I think he should have given the kid a good English name, like Howard or Percival or Richard or something. Even making him a junior would have been acceptable. As it is...well, just imagine:

"Your Majesty, I would like to present my son, Korak (or Boy)."
"Thank you, Lord Greystoke. What an unusual name, young man. Does it have a special significance?"
"Yes, your majesty. It means "Killer" and was given to me by the Great Apes."

or

"Yes, your majesty. It was given to me by Hollywood and it means I'm a Boy."

By the way, "-nkani" is the stem for the Zulu "inkani" which means "stubborness or obstinancy." Closest I could find to the name of Tarzan's monkey.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 12:30 AM

Most (if not all) of the "Ape-English" terms used in the comics were taken directly from Swahili as far as I know, but "N'kima" may have been a made-up name. If not, it's probably a common Swahili term that means "monkey".

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: frogprince
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:08 AM

Youtube has the scene of Jane skinnydipping from "Tarzan and His Mate"; I've heard, I think from Robert Osborne's commentary, that that scene was one of the final straws that led to the Hays code. To me, the only sense in which the scene could be considered offensive is that, as framed in context, it's fairly silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:11 AM

Sillyness - In a Tarzan movie? Surely you jest!! The only thing sillier that I've seen is the animated Disney Tarzan movie that had no blacks in it all. Africa with no Africans. Amazing.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:16 AM

Here's the swimming scene. I wonder where the crocodiles and mosquitoes were?

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:46 AM

That's interesting, Wesley. It hadn't even occurred to me that there were no Black Africans in Disney's Tarzan movie, but it was mostly just about the animals living around Tarzan while he was growing up.

I suppose that the Disney people would have had to complicate the plot considerably to work some Native Africans into it...and they would have been tiptoeing through the minefield of possibly coming up with a scene that someone might have interpreted as "racially offensive"...........after all, Native Africans generally hunted those wild animals around Tarzan, didn't they? How would one avoid casting them in an adversarial role?

So they just skipped the whole thing altogether.

Edgar Rice Burroughs lived in a different time, so he had no hesitation about depicting situations where Tarzan battled various Black African tribes, who were often depicted as pretty vicious. It wouldn't go down so well today, would it? Disney would have had to find a way of putting Blacks in the story and making them good guys. Instead, they just avoided the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM

There is a documentry out there somewhere that traces the way Disney has depicted black people over the years. It's a real eye-opener. Of course their treatment of women is no different. Most of the early female heroines are treated poorly by other females { wicked witch ect } and have to count on a man { the prince } to solve all of their problems. It was typical of society at that time to show women as being in need of a man in order to be complete - and live happily ever after.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:28 PM

Turned into a really cool thread. Great stuff.

The T&A&B on the swimming scene is quite sommat for the times. I wonder if it was ever shown in US cines or on TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM

"It was typical of society at that time to show women as being in need of a man in order to be complete - and live happily ever after."

Yes, and most women seemed to believe in that concept too back then. Most mothers supported those notions and tried to imprint them on their daughters. It just goes to show how strongly cultural programming imprints and repeats itself on a population. Gradually, though, all these ideas change. We've witnessed a great deal of change since the 60s.

If you go back to an even earlier era...such as the medieval period, for example, 99.9% of the women were most definitely in need of a man (a husband or other male family members) in order to be at all safe and in order to even survive, because a woman on her own without family to protect her was in a terribly vulnerable situation, and there were very few of the better occupations or trades that she could be expected or allowed to take part in at an independent level. Those who were not inclined to marry were best advised to become nuns and live in a monastic order where the Church would protect them. It's not surprising that those kind of ideas restricting women's role in life had psychological effects on people that are still seen to some extent in many of today's societies.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 05:09 PM

You mean women like Brigit of Ireland, Eleanor of Aquataine, Christine de Pizan, Jeanne d'Arc, and all of those women who held down the castle and even managed being besieged while their menfolk were off doing something else? Like the peasant women who worked side-by-side with the men in the fields, gelded animals, wove, sewed, and all that sort of stuff?

I think that a lot of Victorian upper-middle-class ideas have colored our notions of the man-woman relationships of the past.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 05:34 PM

The few you mention at tbe beginning were among the 0.1% left over from the 99.9% I mentioned. Yes, an enormous number of women did the agrarian and simple manual work that you allude to, but they were very seldom without male protection of some sort, and the men were the ones normally in charge of the overall property, the hierarchical operation, or whatever it was. That was taken for granted by most people in medieval times.

A few remarkable women who rise to high position can be found in virtually any society of the past. For example, there was a Chinese woman who became a pirate queen in the days of ancient China, and at one time she commanded the largest fleet in the Orient and terrorized the whole area. She was not typical! But she did exist, and she managed to do what no other woman of her time had done.

For some interesting reading on the medieval period, and some very strong-minded female characters, try reading 2 wonderful books by Ken Follet:

The Pillars of the Earth

World Without End

You will see in those books how difficult it was for most women to attain real independence in that society...although a few did indeed manage it, one way or another.

As for Joan of Arc, she is one of my greatest heroes, Rapaire. I've been studying her life for years now. Most of my greatest heroes ARE women, it seems. Did you know that I would much rather women ran the world than men? That's because I think women would do it far better than men do.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 05:51 PM

Yeah but who uses Joan of Arc as a role model in a bedtime story?

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 06:06 PM

Well, you could, I guess...depending on what part of her life you focused on. She lived quite a peaceful and pleasant life in her village up until the time she experienced her visions and went on her mission to crown the Dauphin.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 06:36 PM

"Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?"

Of course, he was a very good dancer, a real swinger...

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 07:55 PM

I think we've worn out the link to the swimming scene; I can no longer access it.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 08:01 PM

Pool musta went dry.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:15 PM

Boadicea managed to do a fair amount of butt-kicking as I recall.

(Not that I was there at the time. . . .)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 10:31 PM

Well, if LH wants to believe it, so be it. Sure would like to know, though, how he thinks the crops got planted, weeded, harvested and gleaned; the cloth was woven; the children raised; the winnowing done; the milling finished; the houses built; and life in general got on if the men and women didn't work together as a team.

Moreover, his statements don't hold for every culture: I suggest reading Fergus Kelly's A Guide To Early Irish Law (Dublin: Dublin Institute For Advanced Studies, School of Celtic Studies; 1998 reprint of 1995 edition) for the Irish, even after the Norman invasion. American Indian nations were usually ultimately matriarchal, with the Council referring important decisions to the women for ratification (e.g., the Nez Perce); the same can be said of most of the Arctic peoples.

Nope, don't pay to make generalizations.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:04 PM

Not nearly that far back but I do find it interesting that many, many women joined the gold rush into the Klondike and later into the Alaska gold fields. Not only that but most of them wore long dresses and skirts as they climbed the Chilkoot Pass. They weren't all dancers, entertainers and 'good time girls' either. Plenty of them were out to make their fortune in gold itself.

I'd like to think that I would employ, as some did, the only reliable means of making a fortune: 'Ma' Pullen, of Skagway, for instance, built and opened a boarding house and in addition she baked hundreds of pies and sold them to the hungry fortune seekers. Sadly, the Pullen House fell into such disrepair several years ago that it was deemed beyond salvage and was pulled down. I think it should have been kept, as a monument to women's spirit if nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:17 PM

You silly bugger, Rapaire. You know perfectly well that I did not state anything to the effect that women back then did not DO all those various kinds of work you mention, and I know they did it, and I bet you know that I know they did it too. What I did say was that the men were normally the bosses and the owners and the people in charge of most things. I think you're just messing with my head for your own amusement, you despicable lollygagging porkchop-masticating son of a scorpion. I shall send Chongo around to "have a talk with you" if you don't cease your deliberate obfuscation.

Yes, American Indian societies were in many cases ultimately matriarchal. Bully for them! I always said the Indians were pretty cool, and on the right track...

But I was talking about Europeans for the most part, I was not talking about Amerindians. Europe and Asia have been almost exclusively under patriarchal systems since the beginnings of recorded history, and that's why the Amazons were a very famous legend in the classical world...simply because the very idea of women dominating a society was such a stunning departure from the status quo of that patriarchal age.

But I know what it really is, Rapaire. You talk here mainly just for the sheer joy of seeing your own keystrokes appear magically on the screen, right? ;-D Yeah, I know what that's like. I love it too. It makes me feel so powerful....so in charge......so omniscient! Heh! Heh! Almost as good as being the Amazon Queen, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:36 PM

Well, Miss Kitty owned the saloon. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:24 AM

And Hatshepsut and Nefertiti owned Egypt...and Elizabeth I owned England...and Victoria owned Canada...and Mary Stuart owned Scotland...and Abigail Adams told John what to do...and Dolley Madison ran James...and Grainne ran Donegal....

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:51 AM

And Nancy went to her astrologer to find out what she should tell Ron to do...

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: MMario
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 11:49 AM

And forget not the Dowager Empress who ruled China!

And in many of those patriarchal societies even though the men appeared to run things, when you check the records and accounts you find it was the oldest woman in the household who had the final say.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:11 PM

A lady even gave Excalibur to King Arthur.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:34 PM

I do hope, though, that while citing these very real examples of feminine accomplishment, youze guys do realize that L.H. is also talking about a real world in which, in our "advanced western cultures", women had no voting rights, significant limitations as to rights in numerous other areas, and little or no access to numerous career paths, not that many years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:59 PM

Pascalina Lehnert.

Subject: RE: BS: Did Tarzan do it with gorillas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:13 PM

Doris Quigley. Patricia Renquist. Millicent Sledge. Lettie Dunsworth. Janet Newcombe. Vanessa Treadwell. Pamela Quinn. Morgan De Ruyter. Annie Cox. Penelope Rutledge.

;-D