BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)

Subject: BS: HAVE A GLORIOUS TWELFTH!
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 08:06 AM

HAVE A GLORIOUS TWELFTH!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPYYn5w8T1s&feature=related


a GLORIOUS TWELFTH

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: HAVE A GLORIOUS TWELFTH!
From: Charmion
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 09:17 AM

As usual at such times of the year -- the other being 17 March -- I'm wearing black.

Subject: RE: BS: HAVE A GLORIOUS TWELFTH!
From: Charmion
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 09:18 AM

By the way, the truly "Glorious Twelfth" is 12 August, the first day of grouse season.

Subject: RE: BS: HAVE A GLORIOUS TWELFTH!
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 09:30 AM

That clip looked simply like an ostentatious display of bad manners to me. If Christians were to provoke Moslems like that where I live, they would rightly be prosecuted. It may well be a tradition, but so were hanging, bear baiting and hare coursing once. The sooner it is gone the better.

Subject: RE: BS: HAVE A GLORIOUS TWELFTH!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 09:56 AM

first time I've seen a marching band with melodeons.

Subject: RE: BS: HAVE A GLORIOUS TWELFTH!
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 10:07 AM

Is this what you're trying to encourage, Peasant?

belfast riots

In the light of the Bloody Sunday report, I think it's disgraceful that these marches are allowed to proceed. It's simply a way to deliberately provoke sectarian rivalry.

Subject: RE: BS: HAVE A GLORIOUS TWELFTH!
From: frogprince
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 10:38 AM

Two interesting things about this, as a parade video: First, so far as can be seen in the video, there was only a tiny scattering of people who cared to come out and watch the parade. Second, of all the marchers that came by, I saw exactly one who smiled for a moment. What a glorious, happy, celebrative 0ccasion!

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 11:33 AM

That's what struck me too, FP. Where is any joy in the remembrance? Just what are they commemorating? They looked just plain nervous to me. The townspeople who stayed away were the ones with good manners.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 11:46 AM

No ladies in the march??

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 12:04 PM

Orangemen, Bonzo. The clue's in the name.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 12:06 PM

I imagine the choice of the Drumcree parade was quite deliberate

This has been probably the most contentious of the Orange order parades in the six counties

The annual parade in the town of Portadown followed a 'traditional' route to and from Drumcree church which, over time, became a densely populated mainly-Catholic and nationalist quarter the residents of which sought to re-reoute the parade away from their area, seeing it as "triumphalist" and "supremacist".

'When the parade was banned from Obins Street in 1986, the focus shifted to the parade's return leg along Garvaghy Road.
In 1995, the dispute drew the attention of the international media as it led to widespread protests and rioting throughout Northern Ireland.
This pattern was repeated every July for the next four years. During this time the dispute led to the deaths of at least five civilians and prompted a massive police and army operation.

Since 1998 the parade has been banned from most of the nationalist area, and the violence has subsided' - Wiki

History of the conflict surrounding the Drumcree march

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 12:24 PM

Well, let's see. 320 years ago two British kings (well, one was mostly French and the other Dutch, but let's not quibble) fought it out in Ireland. Of the 2000 dead, about 500 were Williamites and 1500 Jacobites. What has the casualty counts of the "celebrations" been over the years, I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 12:55 PM

From reading your web pages, Conrad, you're obviously a great believer in the idea that 12th July was a great day for freedom. Perhaps you might have amplified your initial post with some thoughts on why you posted it, such as (and I quote):

Orientation and Purpose
"So..."you are saying to yourself didn't the Defeat of James II at the Battle of the Boyne result in the imposition of those Penal laws which persecuted the Irish?!?!?!And who would want to celebrate that???A n d....the answer is.....

You are absolutely W R O N G !

The Penal laws were imposed by Parliament as a result of the civil war waged by the Irish upon the English which started right AFTER James II surrendered, left Ireland and returned to the French court of Louis XIV from whence he had come. James formally ended his uprising in Dublin shortly after the battle when he told his Irish followers to give up, that their cause was lost. (By the way we have James's character reference right here-be sure to know who we are talking about here!-click for it!) (And if James was not bad enough click here to read about his corrupt advisors!)

Now you see even Irish Catholics can celebrate! And if you don't believe me just consult: Pietro Ottoboni (Pope Alexander VIII), and before you ask No! he was not English (Born in Venice) It is an absolute fact that he called for all of the church bells of Christendom to be rung in celebration of the defeat of James II----now was the Pope Catholic....you bet ya!

In fact July 12th should be celebrated as a national holiday in the Republic of Southern Ireland! You don't agree? You would rather have seen the will of James II put into effect in Ireland?- This is in-fact what he had in mind- This is what he said he was going to do: Principle garrisons should never be entrusted to the Irish Governors or Irish troops; the sons of ancient families should be given an English education, to wean them from their hatred of the English; schools should be established to teach English and by degrees wear out the Irish language, which would be for the advantage of the body of the inhabitants; the Os Macs should be told that the estates declared forfeit by James I and his predecessors could not be restored; no native of Ireland should be lord lieutenant....

So...why would one not wish to celebrate the defeat of this Tyrant "JUST wait one minute guy"....you say..."I know full well that this holiday is some sort of Fraternal Holiday of a Protestant Order and it is really all about them and not......"us"

Sorry...absolutely wrong once again.....

Were there any Orangemen at the Battle of the Boyne or for that matter in Ireland at all at the time?

Absolutely NOT! The Order was not even founded until September 21,1795 and don't take my word for it- ask them!
Here is a link to their page: Click for GOLI

A word about the Orange Order. I am not a member of the Orange Order. Nor would I choose to be at this point in time because of major disagreements with the way the order is managed. I have attempted to assist the order with many issues. I have gone out of my way at great expense to do so. I have found the management of the order cold to outsiders, uncooperative, and lacking in essential common manners. Significant communications have gone un-answered. Essential actions have not been taken as advised. This however does not mean that those running the order or the order itself are evil. I point out that every organization run by human beings will be imperfect.
That the order is conservative beyond necessity, inept, and lacking in common politeness is only a sign of its humanity and in no way represents evil. I would hope however, that the Orange Order would work upon these flaws and at least take the time to respond to ordinary communications in a timely manner.



N o w....Can we get to the point?


Purpose
It is hoped that by studying and taking part in the unfolding of this important holiday in all of its many dimensions that its true significance might become known to all. All too often nations focus only upon their own special days of liberation and celebrate only their own particular pathways to Democracy. The fall of the Absolute monarchs and the evolution of Democratic institutions of government did not happen in one country-in one place-at one time. This process was spread over centuries with milestones in its progress to be found in many countries throughout the world. The defeat of James II, an Absolutist monarch rejected by England, by a tolerant ruler subject to the rule of Parliament is one such milestone. This milestone is of worldwide significance as it marks an important step in the deliverance of mankind from the clutches of the Medieval Absolutist Tyranny.On these pages we shall explore this important history. By following the events of this year's celebration we also might better understand the world and history in which we all live today. By hearing and listening to the viewpoints of the celebrants we will discover and appreciate the great treasures of human diversity.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 01:57 PM

"Orangemen, Bonzo. The clue's in the name. "

Rather sexist for socialists wouldn't you say?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 02:02 PM

"By hearing and listening to the viewpoints of the celebrants we will discover and appreciate the great treasures of human diversity."

Or by reading some of the viewpoints of the 'celebrants' recorded responses to a couple of the videos about Dumcree on you tube in the last 12 months?

My apologies for copying this sickening crap but let's not duck reality and the sectarianism and sheer hatred that still exists

'When we say Ulster we mean British Ulster i thought that everyone knew that you fenian fucks can be real thick cunts '

'fuck all taigs......i hope you all die of cancer you fenian bastards'

'fenian paedo interbred cunts'

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 02:31 PM

consider the OP folks. this thread was created simply to rile up sympathies.

Well here is my only other comment to it

I have a friend who sings a lovely Glorio Glorio to the Bold Fenian Men.

Wonderful presentation for a compelling message and sends shivers down my spine every time I hear it.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 07:34 PM

There Were Roses

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 07:49 PM

Old Maine saying; The more you stir a turd the more it stinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Amergin
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 09:17 PM

We've Seen Them In Pictures

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: open mike
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 09:39 PM

thanks for posting There Were Roses...with a plea for peaceful solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 10:21 PM

Gee........I was hoping that Conrad the Super Pissant had forgotten. Like I keep saying, he's so full of shit that Roto-Rooter is opening an entire new branch next door to his wacko house.

Conrad will now deny being Orange at all and say the music from all sides needs to sung and celebrated and the wind blew and the shit flew, etc. I also have it on good authority that Conrad has a brother living in Iowa who proves his parents did have a child that lived.

Thanks for the inspirational posting Pudley!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 11:13 PM

Oh, yeah, it IS the 12th of July as it yearly doth come!

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 01:03 AM

Thanks one and all tis glorious indeed~! Keep up the spew.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 02:25 AM

Why so much anger?
I do not understand why they want to parade, but they obviously do.
I do not understand why muslim women want to cover themselves, but why should anyone object?
Leveller, the riot on Saturday was not about a march.
It was after midnight!
Some Unionists were having a bonfire party in their own area, and a mob went to attack them.
The police said they had prepared petrol bombs in advance.
All the violence was between police and the attackers.
Why blame the Unionists?
Emma, I am sure you could have got some offensive quotes from those attackers if anyone had tried.

I looked at the Drumcree video posted.
There are no paramilitary trappings. They are not all in step or swinging their arms. They look around as they walk.
It is hardly even marching.
Surely you would have to choose to be offended by it?
The last few years have been quiet, so it looks as if people HAVE chosen to be offended.
Sinn Fein says the violence is being orchestrated by dissident Republicans.
If you support the demonstrators, be clear that is who you are supporting.
Does anyone here defend the dissident Republican groups?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 04:22 AM

Whatever they might be claimed to be celebrating, these marches are aggressive demonstrations of the supposed superiority of one faction of the North-East Irish population over the other - anybody who has witnessed them up close are left in no doubt about this.
Proof of their belligerent nature can be seen in the fact that there are constant demands by the organisers for them to be allowed to take place through Catholic areas.
They are as 'traditional' as bull-baiting and public hanging once were, and in the atmosphere of trying to bring the two populations of North-East Ireland together, they act as a huge stumbling-block.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 04:31 AM

Are demands to march through Catholic areas acceded to?
That would be wrong.
How can you tell that they are "aggressive demonstrations of the supposed superiority" ?
Does anyone have to "witness them up close"?
Hanging and bear baiting cause suffering. How are they analagous to these parades?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 04:33 AM

Do you support the dissident groups Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 04:59 AM

All;
"Do you support the dissident groups Jim?"
My attitude to dissident groups is clearly set out on the 'Bloody Sunday' thread where Keith and I had a long and somewhat unpleasant falling-out.
I have no intention in bringing that dispute to this thread - I hope Keith feels the same.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 05:16 AM

I might have to disagree again Jim.
According to Sinn Fein, the violence was orchestrated by those dissident republican groups, and we can hardly discuss it without reference to them can we?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 08:49 AM

It is reported in today's Irish Times that "There was serious violence over the July 12th period, with dozens of police officers injured during disturbances in Belfast.
The trouble flared through Sunday night, yesterday and last night. Rioters tried to hi-jack the Belfast to Dublin train".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 09:10 AM

Sinn Féin's Gerry Kelly said dissident republicans, from the Real IRA, were orchestrating the violence.

At the height of the rioting women in Ardoyne found children playing with a loaded rifle and handed it into police.

Petrol bombs, fireworks, stones, and bottles were thrown at police after they tried to move rioters away from a parade route. Two of three hijacked vans were pushed at police lines.

The Ardoyne priest Father Gary Donegan said the trouble was started by outsiders.

"Myself and many people were looking at people last night that we'd never seen in the area before in our lives.

"It was as if people had been bussed into the area for this very purpose and that this was being very much orchestrated," he said
There were other disturbances in Derry and the Country Antrim village of Rasharkin overnight after nationalist demonstraters attacked police officers wedged between them and Orangemen and their supporters.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jul/14/belfast-riots-real-ira-blame

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 09:42 AM

Here is video of the rioters in Ardoyne.
Would any police force in the world show as much courageous restraint as PSNI does here?
http://news.bbc.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 10:18 AM

Exactly.
S-F needs to reign in these street gangs or else they will loose credibility. Doesn't matter that they are some sort of splinter anything. These people claim to represent nationalist concerns so the nationalist community needs to reign them in- their responsibility.

Not only was there restraint but it was known that petrol bombs etc were being put together and yet no one did anything-

The nationalist community at large should be the first line of defense and the nationalist community bears the responsibility for any group acting in its name. They should compensate the victims of the violence against police and a peaceful, legal, non confrontational parade.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 10:28 AM

Who is responsible for which single act of violence can only possibly be of interest to those who have selected which particular side of the sectarian divide they are rooting for and wish to blame 'the others' for the trouble.
Violence takes place where and when it does each year because giant, provocative marches are allowed to take place throughout the North Eastern counties of Ireland at this time of year, and they do just that - provoke.
While they are allowed to continue, so will the violence, and due to the delicate political situation in Ireland today, they are quite likely to escalate into full-scale warfare again, as they did in the past.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 11:17 AM

Jim,
"because giant, provocative marches are allowed to take place throughout the North Eastern counties of Ireland at this time of year,"

Gerry Kelly, Sinn Fein MLA for N Belfast said, "There are only a handful of Orange Order parades which are contentious. It is time that the Loyal Orders faced up to this reality and entered into dialogue with local residents to resolve these issues."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/10608851.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 04:38 PM

Don't march. There's no reason to March. There's good reason not to march.

If ya gotta march, maybe hand out cookies (biscuits - before I am assailed again) and tea? Little shamrock icing decorations with orange and green shamrocks on each. A "peace" march. A "goodwill" march. Hug some Cat'lics and kiss some babies in a show of mutual support and solidarity in a lasting peace.

I am all for "heritage" but the blatant "piss on you" attitude is disgusting.

Of course, I am an ocean away and don't understand. Just kinda glad my great-great fucked off from there.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 05:36 PM

I have a question: What is so 'glorious' about the event? In 1690?

I recognize that the opposing sides held - and hold - very different views and that the outcome of the battle cemented those views. However, surely, surely, it is not necessary nor desirable for one side to celebrate the other's defeat in such an in-your-face manner? More than 300 years later? Surely, surely, a more appropriate commemoration would be held in their own churches and lodges?

Kind of like if the Allies, once a year, gathered in Germany, Italy and Japan and strutted through the land.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 06:02 PM

Why still celebrate Thanksgiving, or Independence Day?
Such a long time ago now.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 06:06 PM

Methinks you are very selective in your response, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 07:51 PM

I am Catholic and I think, without understanding the situation at all, but just in general, if it is an event that has always been held in the same place in the same way, similar to a St. Patrick's Day parade...and there was no intention toward violence...I would want the parade to continue. It might have to be stopped or modified because of violence, but ...it is of course complicated...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 09:09 PM

The problem is that 'Traditionally' The Orange Lodge marched through Catholic (NOT Republican) neighbourhoods to prove their 'Superiority'
which (MOST Strangely) caused some ill feeling !

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth!
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 09:16 PM

Yep. I don't have a clue as to why that should be. Some people are just so petty. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 01:03 AM

"If ya gotta march, maybe hand out cookies (biscuits - before I am assailed again)"

Well, no 'assault' was intended, gnu - just a little lighthearted comment on one small difference amongst the many that define our cultures. A sense of humour is always a handy thing to have (that's 'humor' for the sake of Americans, who are notoriously bad at speling) :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 01:20 AM

There are thousands of these parades, but only a "handful" are contentious.
If there was a parade down my street that I did not like, I would work towards getting it re routed, and meanwhile find something else to be doing as it passed.
It is just a parade, and only once a year.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 03:34 AM

"Some people are just so petty."
Not 'petty' Ebbie - it goes with the history and it serves a specific purpose - it does what Leadfingers says, it 'proves their superiority'.
It's fairly obvious from the Gerry Kelly quote that the Nationalists are prepared to make compromises and that he at least does not regard all Protestants as 'the enemy', as once was the case; I fear that his appeal that "It is time that the Loyal Orders faced up to this reality..." will continue to fall on deaf ears.
There has never been any argument that the contentious Unionists form a minority in the North East, but that minority are vociferous and they dominate the Unionist movement - they are the public, threatening face of Unionism and they continue to make the running.
We experienced the threat of the marchers a few years ago when we were foolish enough to cross from Scotland into Ireland on the Stranraer to Larne ferry on the day before to the Orange marches - terrifying or what. Our English accents saved us from any real trouble, though my Liverpool one got me accused of being a 'Taigue' a couple of times. We travelled through Belfast and Derry as quickly as we could and breathed a sigh of relief when we crossed into the sanity of Donegal.
In contrast, we were here in Miltown for a traditional music school at the time the hunger strikers were dying. Catholics and Protestants playing music and drinking together for a whole week with not a hint of trouble, despite the fact that the street was bedecked with black flags in respect for the men dying in prison. There were a couple of newly cmposed songs on the subject sung that week, but no hatred and no violence.
There is no question that people should have the right to march to celebrate..... whatever, but that right comes with responsibilities and the marches should not be allowed to promote sectarian hatred, as they are by the demagogues.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 04:11 AM

It is just a parade, and only once a year.

So that's all right then.

On this principle I'm about to organise a street parade on 6th August. The marchers will be descedants of the members of the Allied Forces from 1941-45, and the venue will be Hiroshima. Drums beating, pipes whistling, plenty of sashes and regalia, etc.

I can't visualise any problem with this. After all, It is just a parade, and only once a year.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 04:21 AM

I have almost no knowledge of this.
I have only ever seen one small Orange parade and it was a quiet Sunday morning without even a band.
(One of the marchers was the host at our B&B. A very nice couple.)
I agree with all your last post Jim, except I do not understand why you say they parade to "prove their superiority."
Is that not just how you choose to see it?
It is just a band and people walking.
It is their one way of celebrating their cultural identity. Presbyterianism has deprived them of music, dance and song.
They have their bands and they march and they love it.
Loyalist do not have the monopoly on hate and intolerance.
I could see plenty of that in those republican rioters.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 04:44 AM

"I do not understand why you say they parade to "prove their superiority."
You seem to have led a very sheltered life.
A couple of verses of "We are the sons of Billy and to Hell with Popery" should sort out this for you.
A few years ago a friend on a visit to Belfast decided to balance his collection of Irish music with some Orange songs, so he asked around and was directed to places wheere he could buy some 'under-the-counter' home made albums - I don't think he quite got over the experience - a torrent of sectarian, racist, right-wing hatred - the pride of place of his collection is held by 'The Pope's a Darkie'.
"Loyalist do not have the monopoly on hate and intolerance."
No they don't, but it is their marches and their insistence that they should march in places that will cause the most disruption and insult that instigates and keeps that hatred alive and simmering.
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 04:53 AM

A sheltered life.
Not in terms of being exposed to songs full of rabid hatred of the English and glorying in killing us.

Will, you and the allied descendents do not live in Hiroshima.
How acceptable would it be for Japanese Americans to demand the banning of Vets. Day parades in USA?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:37 AM

Keith - I have no intention of entering into a dialogue with you and dominating another thread, especially knowing yur tendency towards invective.
Irish political songs tend to be historical interpretations of incidents of conflict during the six centuries England has dominated Ireland, pretty much the same as their counterpart English ones are when dealing with wars with the French, Spanish or whoever we happened to be at war with at any particular time and these are usually aimed at English landlords or soldiers and sometimes politicians. I know of no Irish songs whatever that are aimed at the British as a people, unlike many of the Orange songs and chants to be heard on these marches, which are directed at Catholics for having a different religion.
"banning of Vets. Day parades in USA?"
If Vet's Day parades were racist or sectarian attacks on the Japanese people it would be perfectly in order for any reasonable person to object to them and demand their banning - under the laws of the country, if nothing else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:39 AM

Will, you and the allied descendents do not live in Hiroshima.
How acceptable would it be for Japanese Americans to demand the banning of Vets. Day parades in USA?

You're missing the point. Marching to celebrate one's culture and heritage - for a whole nation or a whole community - is perfectly acceptable. Marching through a particular section of one's own community to demonstrate/reinforce one's supposed superiority over that community, or to intimidate that section of the community, is merely provocative, demeaning and divisive.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: gnu
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 06:08 AM

Backwoodsman... right back at ya. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 06:28 AM

Another bit of hate I have to contend with.
My faithful poodle who follows me round the threads says"The only post he ever wrote that made any sense was the one in which he expressed admiration for the skill and bravery of the Provisional Volunteers that look out a few acres in the centre of Manchester in the 90's. It was on the thread "Stepdaughters and teenagers" he was posting on this thread about a young one he was knocking off at the time who was inManchester on the day. "
This is what he is referring to.
Detail.CFM?messages__Message_ID=1798488
My step daughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 06:37 AM

"Another bit of hate I have to contend with."
PS Nor has Ireland produced a huge repertoire of racist-or otherwise Xenophobic jokes aimed at the Irish, Welsh, Scots, or anybody who Isn't White, Anglo-Saxon or wasn't born in Chiipping Sodbury
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 07:02 AM

OK, I don't live there and will never understand.
To an outsider, the problem seems to be intolerance.
Most of the thousands of marches upset no one, but the organisers should consider changing routes that do.
A parade is pretty harmless. Some people could be a little more tolerant of them. Tourists would love them.
But what do I know?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 07:59 AM

"To an outsider, the problem seems to be intolerance."
The problem is that they are sectarian based, which breeds intolerance.
Their very nature is belligerant - they are loud, militaristic and oppresive. As somebody pointed out earlier - you really don't see a lot of smiles.
People throng to St Patrick Day parades because they are a celebration, and as such, they are welcoming; you feel they are safe enough to take children on them. In my experience the Lodge marches are threatening to any outsider. That is the feeling I have always come away from them with, and I saw a great deal of them in my youth in Liverpool. I suggest you try one sometime - a new experience perhaps - don't they have them in your part of the world (didn't you say Glasgow - the first place I ever saw men in cages - at a Celtic-Rangers match to keep the Catholics and Protestants apart)?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 08:22 AM

LOL gnu! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 08:24 AM

Hertford is far from Glasgow. The parade I saw was in Co. Down.
They are sectarian based in that it is a unionist tradition.
Must that breed intolerance?
Why?
"Their very nature is belligerant"
Justify that. It is people walking to a band. That is just your subjective impression.

"they are loud, militaristic and oppresive."
Any band in the street is similarly loud. That is not an argument.
Militaristic? As I observed earlier, not really.
Oppressive? A purely subjective impression.

"In my experience the Lodge marches are threatening to any outsider. That is the feeling I have always come away from them with "
Subjective impression.
You do not like the people who march, so you see them and have all these negative feelings.
It is just people walking with a band.
Show some tolerance.

But I do not live there.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: cobra
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 09:27 AM

Keith A, a couple of questions if you don't mind. One, you ay you have observed Orange parades in Co. Down, in what capacity?

Two, what/ who have been the major influences on your very clearly articulated position on anything and everything related to the six counties?

I ask this as it srikes me you bring a very singular vision to the party any time you engage in an exchange on this board - I hesitate to call it a dialogue as that does not seem to fit the general tenor and ,imo, intent of your postings.

Of course the reality, as anyone with a modicum of knowledge or experience of the place - as opposed to being a day tripper - will tell you, is that there are a significant number of people who eschew all and any of the extremist positions which have been witnessed down the years. Then there are those who, like yourself, prefer the position of armchair warrior and would have us believe you have a deep and well-developed insight into what is happening in that particular society. Sadly, I do not believe that can truly be the case simply from watching TV news and parroting the sectarian rubbish put out by one side. Of course, if you HAVE spent any extended time in the six counties, your partisanship may just be understandable. There are two sides to this issue and you would do well to make time trying to understand how people have ended up with such opposing views and perhaps, just perhaps, trying to make a constructive contribution.

FWIW, I have lived in England for many years now, having come from an area of Belfast which experienced some of the aorst atrocities of the whole saga, from Loyalist murder gangs, to Paras on the rampage killing illegally, to IRA bombings and assassinations. I am pleased that distance has given me an opportunity to be a bit more reflective and I can now honestly say that I count among my closest friends ex-Paras and soldiers who have served time in Northern Ireland, people from the Falls and from East Belfast who have marched in their respective sectarian beanfests and a wide range of people from all partsof Ireland. What I can say about these people is that we all, to a person, have had to make significant movement to reach an understanding and a genuine appreciation of the experiences which we have had as individuals. I guess the old adage that you shall know people by the friends they keep (and I read that as being that we share a breadth of understanding - learned, in truth - and a readiness to work at understanding differences). Sadly, if I apply the same yardstick to you I fear that you have a somewhat one-dimensional perspective which suggests you have a rather limited circle of acquaintances. Please do not take that as a personal slight, that is not my intention . If anything, I would like to see you broaden your experience and input.

When I first saw your handle, I wrongly read your place-de-guerre as "Hereford". I was wrong. But it isquite telling don't you think?. As many posters have said, marching in Northern Ireland is generally seen as triumphalist, or a knee-jerk reaction to triumphalism - 12th July and Easter Sunday alike. If you knew anything, really knew anything, about what makes the people of the six counties tick you might just be a bit more circumspect about sharing your armchair wisdom and insight so readily and actually make time to geta grasp of why people have ended up as polarised as the have.

Marches are not, and never have been, about a Sunday afternoon stroll to enjoy the scenery. That si true whether you are talking about Orange parades, AOH marches, EDL marches through Luton and Bradford, Remembrance Day parades, Muslim aspirations to march through Wootton Bassett or whatever else you can call up. Morris dancing in Hertford I will make an exception for. That is generally about harmless people using a bit of exercise to get pleasantly bevvied. And good luck to them.

Use that pension wisely, man. Get out of your armchair and go talk to people. It can only do you good.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 09:28 AM

"Justify that."
They are pretty much in the spirit of the Holy Cross 'this is our territory' incident.
"I have only ever seen one small Orange parade"
Hardly the grounds for challenging those of us who grew up with them on our doorstep. Go to one and see one of the biggies for yourself.
Or try the 'Glorious 12th of August' Apprentice Boys Parade' and report back.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 09:50 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cobra, you have not described me.
"your very clearly articulated position on anything and everything related to the six counties?"

Not anything and everything.
I am anti paramiltaries. That is all I have ever argued about before this thread.
I was in Co. Down for a wedding and made a holiday of it. Hence the B&B reference.

I would like to see more parades Jim. I love all things Irish.
I do not claim to understand you though. I said I was speaking as an outsider.
As an outsider, it does look as though a little tolerance would solve most of your problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,big ballad singer
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 11:42 AM

Listen... I'm all for non-violence, seriously so, but how can there honestly be any dispute about who is in the right in Ireland? Are there Americans commenting here? We, descendents from the first "Americans", that is, only exist as a republic after having driven out those who were at one time the rightful rulers of the people in question. How much more right do the Republicans have, who are simply still carrying on their efforts against those who were a foreign invader from the first?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm honestly asking to understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 11:56 AM

I understand what you're saying, GUEST,bbs, but it's now become a little more complicated than that in Ireland. The period of invasion, if that's what you want to term it, is now several hundred years. The population of Northern Ireland consists of a majority of who wish to remain part of the UK, and Northern Ireland is itself a minority within the greater island of Ireland as a whole. There are around 1,700,000 people in Northern Ireland, of whom around 46% are declared Protestants, 40% declared Catholics and 14% declared as neither. So that's over 3/4 of a million people who wish to remain in Northern Ireland but as part of the UK.

Whether you consider history just or unjust, the incredibly complex political, religious and social situation there is not just a question of "driving out the invader". That's simplistic beyond any measure of thinking.

By the way, perhaps the native American people's should have driven out the English, French and Spanish invaders in the 17th century and later on. Unless you yourself are descended from native American people, you're not a "first American" either. In other words, where do we stop with all of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 01:32 PM

Will, your argument would hold more water if it addressed the more recent gerrymandering that separated Erin into north and south. If the wish of all of the Irish people was democratically followed the six counties of Ulster would have been part of the Irish Republic. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that there was a deliberate British policy encouraging emigration into the six northern counties tipping the balance to Protestantism.
I am not a Catholic but in the case of Ireland I believe that the total populace of the island should have decided their fate!
That being said I would hate to see honest efforts on both sides in recent times lost because of some marching or rioting fools!

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 01:44 PM

Both Catholicism and Presbyterianism are comparitively recent imports, the old Celtic religions predated them by many millennia.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 01:59 PM

Sandy - you're quite right about the emigration to Ireland - from Scotland, mainly, I believe. But once again, we're talking as early as the 17th century here, are we not? This was when the plantation of Ireland was the most prolific - around 100,000 people, I believe.

And, yes, if there had been a completely democratic vote before partition, Ireland would now be one country with one government - possibly a troubled one, but that's pure speculation.

I wonder what would happen if the UK Government actually decided to relinquish dominion of Northern Ireland and hand it completely to the Irish Republic. Conciliation? Civil War? (My point was a response to the concept of "driving out the invader", by the way). All I can say is that, judging by the bigots in the Orange Order and the still active members of small but fanatical groups of the IRA, it wouldn't exactly be a piece of cake, would it? Or am I just being cynical?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 02:00 PM

Sandy, since the establishment of NI and the Republic, migration has only been into Britain and there was no "deliberate British policy encouraging emigration" to or from NI.
We have just had a long discussion about the democratically expressed wishes of the people on the Bloody Sunday thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Big Ballad Singer
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 03:06 PM

Will and others, just for the record, I am a member here.

Will, the comments regarding the native peoples of this land were slightly misguided. The natives of this continent are not "first Americans". The Englishmen and women that came to settle here and eventually fought to overthrow the Crown were and are the "first Americans".

As far as the native tribes of this land driving anyone out, there was no real animosity nor effort towards genocide until much later in our country's history. The whites and natives lived side by side, most times either ignoring one another or, occasionally, working together. Not until the dominionist attitudes of later governments and the privileged rich did we see wholesale disregard for the rights of the native peoples.

Ireland is completely different in that regard, and, for the record, I do not care what political deliberations have produced or failed to produce as far as anyone's preference for separation or any other geo-political issue. Ireland was a free and independent nation, as others have said, LONG before there were Protestants, Catholics or Christians of any stripe at all on her shores. The Crown has no right to possession of those lands, government of those people nor any right to ask any one of us to turn a blind eye to their abuses, human-rights crimes and simple and blatant disregard for the dignity and right to freedom of the people she has treated so cruelly.

Let that percentage of people who want to be loyal to the UK be loyal to them from homes either in England, where they are free to go, or from homes in a FREE and INDEPENDENT Ireland, where their personal political preferences and choices would still be their divine and nationally-ordained right.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 03:22 PM

No offence intended by using "GUEST", BBS - just responding politely to your post by the name used in that post.

The historical actions of the people of England against Ireland, the people of Ireland against England, and by the people of Ireland against each other are a matter of record, and most of them are entirely regrettable. This thread is about the mindset of the Orangemen marching, often through Catholic areas, in Northern Ireland, and what such a mindset implies. Viewed in that light, I would say - with respect - that the last sentence in your last post is simplistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 03:25 PM

I should add, just to clarify my own personal viewpoint, that I heartily wish that Ireland could be a united, independent, peaceful country. Lord knows how that will ever be achieved, given the history.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 03:46 PM

"…… if there had been a completely democratic vote before partition, Ireland would now be one country with one government"
This is true. A form of Proportianal Representation had been established in the six counties to ensure the Catholic minority a role in the running of the new State, but was dropped in late 1920s, leaving them with virtually no say. There was never any pretence of giving the Nationalists a say in the running of the country.
The border was set originally to include Ulster's nine counties, but when it was realised that this would put the Catholics in the majority, Donegal, Cavan and Monoghan were dropped and included in the Irish Free State, making the describing of the six counties 'Ulster' a bit of a nonsense really.
Had independent Ireland included all 32 counties, it may well, as Will says, have been a 'troubled' state, but the partitioning of the six counties and the enforced signing of the treaty 'accepting' partition (under threat of invasion by Britain) led to a Civil War in the 28 states of the new Irish Free State, so it was six of one – half a dozen of the other really.
"……there was no "deliberate British policy encouraging emigration"
There was no official policy, but discrimination in employment; anti-Catholic riots, poor housing and no political representation forced many Catholics to emigrate (members of my own family among them).
Throughout all of this the Orange marches have played a major part in proclaiming the superiority of the Unionist majority and in intimidating the Catholic minority into 'their place'; this remains a major function.   
The Loyalist dominance of the State remained virtually unchallenged right up to the late 1960s, when Civil Rights demonstrations took place; these were baton charged by the police, then directed by them through stone-throwing Loyalist mobs, leading to over twenty years of warfare, in Ireland and in mainland Britain, which included the massacre of unarmed demonstrators on Bloody Sunday.
Reluctant talks on power sharing have been bombed to the conference table and still have a lot of sectarian hurdles to tackle, but, given Irish history, there will always be 'patriots' to fight for a United Ireland, so, even if an agreement is reached, the match will only have been postponed and the ball passed on to another generation.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 03:49 PM

Sorry - tat should be 26 conties of the new Irish Free State - maths was never my strong point
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 03:50 PM

Neither was typing from my last posting; ******* sticky keyboard
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:27 PM

Jim, that is the third time in less than a week that you have posted that enormous block of text to let the world know jim's version of Irish history!
It makes it impossible to debate with you, because there are just so many things that have to be challenged.
Perhaps that is why you do it!

I will start tonight with this bit.
"There was no official policy, but discrimination in employment; anti-Catholic riots, poor housing and no political representation forced many Catholics to emigrate (members of my own family among them)."

Actually the Nationalist population has grown and is growing, and the Unionist population has shrunk and is shrinking.

It will take many days and many posts to answer everything by which time you will probably post up screeds more tosh!

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:37 PM

The number of people claiming to be Roman Catholic in the Northern Ireland census has steadily increased, though has slowed somewhat in recent decades. By contrast, the number of people claiming to be Presbyterian and Church of Ireland in the census has decreased. Statisticians predict both communities will achieve close to parity in size, with Protestants dominant primarily to the east and north of Northern Ireland and Catholics dominant to the west and south. Some foresee an eventual Catholic majority (albeit slight) However as of 2005[update] most statisticians predict that Protestants will continue to slightly outnumber Catholics in Northern Ireland as a whole for some time to come.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_and_politics_of_Northern_Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:48 PM

As it happens, I am of the belief that VE day parades and their like should not be celebrated the way they are.

Remembering the war dead should be a shared experience.

The Idea that we should march up and down for ever reminding the world that we beat the Germans and the Japs is outdated and misses the point.

The Orange marches are insulting and hurtful to Northern Irish Catholics as they are inextricably linked to the repression and subjugation of Catholics by Protestants in the North and they are inextricably linked to violence and humilation.

In this way they are comparable to the words Nigger and Paki, because those words were grown in the manure of racial violence and humiliation.

Violence is never justified, but Catholic anger at the Marches is understandable.

The orange orders may not have the power they used to have but they are founded of the same substance as they always were.

Trying to pass the marches off as anything less than a statement of seperateness is just plain denial.

The mentality is best summed up by a story my Dad once told me about a sea voyage he took to South Africa, during which there was a knock on his door.

Upon opening it, he found himself confronted with a Northern Irish Protestant, who had scoured the names of all the passengers on board, and found an Irish surname amongst them.

He then located my Dads cabin, knocked on the door and announced:

"I just wanted you to know - we're different!"

And that is what the Orange marches symbolize ...

'... we aren't like you, and don't for one second presume to believe you are like us.'


Some people will ignore this, but some will find it very upsetting, whilst others still will use it as an excuse to commit violent crime, with the circle comleting as the Orange men say to themselves

"you see - they're savages - not like us"

And round and round it goes.


Oh yes - and guess what - Keith A doesn't see what the fuss is all about.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:52 PM

"Actually the Nationalist population has grown and is growing, and the Unionist population has shrunk and is shrinking."
I was referring to the overall period since partition, as you were.
I repeat, there was no official policy of enouraging emigration, but the circumstances the Catholics found themselves in had the effect of forcing many to emigrate.
The populations of both the Republic and the six counties have fluctuated wildly, but the fact remains that the Catholic population became a persecuted minority under Unionist control - please don't prevaricate.
I think you'll find that the higher birth-rate among Catholics might just have something to do with the growth in population - something to do with their attitude to contraception and family planning I would guess.
"....enormous block of text"
It really isn't my fault if you are incapable of following large amounts of information - the Irish question is a big one - shelves full of it here. I have to assume that people have both the patience and the intelligence to take information in - sorry if that's not the case with you - haven't had any complaints before.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,MG
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 07:59 PM

i think the answer is something like if you can't beat them join them...everyone bring an orange flute to toodle and wear lots of orange that day and wave little orange flags and pass out orange lollipops etc. Another day to make merry and celebrate the more positive parts of a group's heritage. Join in with them like all sorts of people join in on St. Patrick's day..which by the way I think the parades were originally in US to show a sort of group strength, as in look here we are and don't mess with us as at least part of their origins. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 09:23 PM

Right-o Keith- good old Blog-O-Pedia.

Now can you cite any reliable sources?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 10:03 PM

All that to do for bloody Billy and his bitch Mary.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: cobra
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 10:06 PM

Keith,

When in hole stop digging! YOu have stated the following:-

" ...there was no "deliberate British policy encouraging emigration" to or from NI..."

It seems you want to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds; I do not believe that anyone has made claims about a "deliberate British policy encouraging emigration" to or from NI...". as you state.

However, the reality is that the then Northern Ireland prime minister, one Lord Brookeborough, made it clear to a gathering of Unionist worthies that they should encourage Catholic emigration by ensuring that only Protestants were employed - that is a matter of historical record, btw - the objective being to ensure the Protestant majority. Of course, when it suited, the strategy of forced emigration through employment discrimination was supported by use of intimidation of Catholic workers in the shipyards and exclusion from general employment opportunity. Once again, this is a matter of public record. I can reassure you that my father was a victim of this blatant discrimination, a man who wanted nothing more than an equal opportunity to compete but who was denied on the grounds of his perceived faith - he also had to witness triumphalist marches every year where it was made clear that "walking the road" was a demonstration of what can only be called droit-de-seigneur.

For some reason, and I am assuming you do have a reason, you post persistent, value-laden, sectarian smears regarding things which have taken place in the six counties - interstingly you have not responded to my request for information as to what/ who enlightened you with regard to Northern Ireland. I cannot believe that your philophical outlook was borne out of a weekend trip to a wedding in County Down. Sadly, you present as a bigot who ahs little or nothing to offer to the debate about how a lasting solution might be achieved. It begs the question as to whether you are actually a troll intent only on fanning sectarian flames. Easy done from a Hertford armchair!

One final question to add to those which I have asked but which remain unanswered so far. Have you actually served in the British Army? If so, was it in peacetime and do you have any campaign medals? Oops, two questions! My bad.... soooo sorry Captain Mainwaring.

Your grasp of facts is tenuous to say the least, your attempted manipulation of statistics is frankly pathetic and generally beneath contempt. You bring nothing to the table apart from Hertford armchair bull. An armchair warrior talking about matters Irish on the basis that he spent a weekend in County Down at a friend's wedding is seriously pathetic.

I do not know what drives your agenda. All I do know is that your arguments are intellectually weak, your logic is shallow, you show no inclination to engage intellectually,rather you appear to prefer invective and wild extrapolation.... and, finally, your grasp of history is tenuous.

In your defence, you have clearly had a hell of a time in the course of your one weekend in County Down! Hopefully no-one has incriminating pictures and no-one has been hurt in the creation of your pretty picture.

Peace and love brother, peace and love.....

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 10:49 PM

Will, you stated:
"I wonder what would happen if the UK Government actually decided to relinquish dominion of Northern Ireland and hand it completely to the Irish Republic. "
I suppose I do as well and a civil war may possibly have been the result, but that would have been resolved, one way or another by the Irish, without British influence, years ago. From that they would have moved on. Festering wounds, on the other hand, have caused much more pain over time!
I have often wondered why Britain so freely gave Honk Kong back to China ( a much more repressive regime) but would not relinquish Ulster to a democratic Republic of Ireland? In Hong Kong's case they did not poll the people as to their desires but acted against the wishes of what was no doubt a majority. I suspect that the hope for monetary gain in Chinese trade exceeded any respect for democracy! Shit happens, especially when political corruption is the driving force!

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 01:11 AM

I heard a radio report today that this year's violent (rock throwing) response to the parades in the Ardoyne district of North Belfast included children down to 9 years old, and that social networking and cell phone photos seemed to be bringing in young people who were not local, just out for a lark. The local priest who was being interviewed and who had been on the street with others working to keep the peace also pleaded for some compromise and common sense -- some of the parade times and locations are more inflammatory than others and adjustments should be made.

The interviewer asked if kids were on their own, or brought by parents. Many were not -- he contacted parents he knew and most did not know what their kids were up to and promised to retrieve them. But he did see one adult with a 4-year-old in tow cheering on some young rock-throwers. He said it made him despair.

He also pointed out the the cost of the policing required could have paid for a school or a hospital...

Violence in Belfast on Public Radio International's "The World" (with reporting from PRI, BBC, and WGBH).

So sad to me that this mess lingers on...

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 01:42 AM

Cobra, that quote about "deliberate British policy" came from Sandy M.
Cobra, If I get something wrong, identify it and tell me.
My posts are short to make that easy.
Attacking me personally is not debating.

Greg F, Jim has set me a huge piece of guff to challenge, so I went for quickness.
Are you saying Wiki is wrong on that?

Jim, Protestants emigrate too, and the evidence is that their emigration is higher.http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wPoupHOBkAgC&pg=PA167&lpg=PA167&dq=protestant+catholic+emigration+northern+ireland&source=bl&

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 01:46 AM

Sandy, China had law on its side over Hong Kong. The lease expired.
Its people wanted to stay with britain, but Britain could hardly resist the might of China.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 02:10 AM

I had heard that the British at some point did not want dominion over Northern ireland..they wanted to wash their hands of it, but the people of Northern Ireland..some of them...begged for protection etc. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 02:28 AM

Well, I watched the video and it would not horrify me having a bunch of men ranging from old to young playing flutes and drums and ambling down a street..now if that street was chosen to find the most Catholic neighborhood where they had not traditionally marched, then it would be wrong to permit it. If there is too much violence that results from where they traditionally have it, ideally the violencers should be the ones stopped but that is not always possible and you have to bow to public safety and probably move the event.

But there is no reason other than public safety, and these people did not seem aggressive in their bowler hats and umbrellas, for us to meddle with their tradition or holiday. And as it gets safer for everyone, it will be more fun besides....kids on trikes and horses with orange ribbons...

We mess with other peoples' heritage at our peril because the tide will turn and they will want to quash our own. There is no reason that fathers and sons and grandsons should not assemble and peacefully march in their traditional areas..except public safety must trump other issues. And I think I will celebrate the day from now on..take the good and leave the bad of any cultural group.   mg

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 03:32 AM

"Jim has set me a huge piece of guff to challenge"
Keith,
If you think my contributions are guff - please feel free to ignore them.
If they are too much for you to take in - please don't strain your brain trying to,
If you think my points are wrong - as with our arguments in the past, challenge them.
If you don't understand the North Eastern Ireland msituation - buy a book.
I have set nothing for YOU to challenge - THIS ISN'T ABOUT YOU BOY - IT'S ABOUT IRELAND!!!
Meanwhile, back at the ranch - the news on the ground is that last night marked the third night of rioting in Belfast (or scuffles, as Keith referred to them).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 03:51 AM

Jim, ignoring your magnum opus would give it credence.
You would like that wouldn't you.
I have so far challenged one part of one sentence!
It did not stand up to scrutiny, but look what it has taken to refute it.

Anyone could do what you do. Type in half an hour of stream of consciousness.
All opinion. No evidence. No sources.
Worthless in debate.

BEHOLD the thoughts of Chairman Jim.
You may now discuss them.

It is no more than a bullying tactic to dominate the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 04:12 AM

Why has some clone added Drumcree to the title of this thread?
I assume it was someone across the water with no real knowledge of the Orange Walks that happen every year, and in many locations. Many are held outwith Northern Ireland too.
Drumcree isn't the only apple in the barrel!

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 04:48 AM

Re partition, here is a differnet take than Jim's.
It is brief to make it easy to challenge anything that is factually incorrect.

Most of Ireland wanted out of British rule, but Ulster wanted to stay in and was prepared to fight.
Dublin wanted to force them out, but did not have the might.
Britain wanted to force them out, but the army refused to do it.
Illiberal Jim thinks they should have been forced out.
How Jim?

Politicians can only hope to please most of the people most of the time.
They tinkered with the border so as few people as possible found themselves on the wrong side of the (open) border.
What more could they do?
Some of those who did not get their own way, stamped their feet and started executing people.
It still goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 05:49 AM

"BEHOLD the thoughts of Chairman Jim."
Right - I really have had anough of this; it's like having a fractious child hanging onto your arm.
Please leave me alone - I'm far too old to cope with a cyberstalker.
If you want to argue my points (the ones you understand), please do so.
If you reduce this to infantile name-calling as you did on previous threads I will ask the adudicator to look into your behaviour - try to behave like an adult and don not fuck up another thread.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 03:32 AM

Exciting video, there Cbp

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 10 - 07:55 AM

Curious.
When I challenged the opinion of others on the partition, people lined up to tell me I knew nothing, could not think for myself, was in a hole, etc., etc.
A few posts up I gave my version of what led to it.
Not one person has challenged a word.
Invective is easier I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,Allan C
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 04:59 AM

"Well, let's see. 320 years ago two British kings (well, one was mostly French and the other Dutch, but let's not quibble) fought it out in Ireland"

Quite so a family squabble over the thrones of Scotland, England and Ireland - with the real coveted prize being the throne in London. James the ousted monarch against his daughter and her husband who also happened to be his nephew. A family squabble which was only a sideshow in a much wider European conflict. Both William and James had blood on their hands and why anyone nowadays would be bothered about either of these guys bemuses me. The real issues are surely inter-communal conflict, mutual distrust, sectarianism and more modern politics with the Jacobite or Williamite things just trappings nowadays.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:24 AM

Keith says that there are thousands of such parades but only a few are contentious. I don't agree!
I was brought up in Southport UK, a seaside town 20 miles north of Liverpool, and every year the Orange Order marches through the town on July 12th. The locals hate it! But, it brings a lot of money in to the town and as the Blessed Bob said , money doesn't talk it swears".
I feel very sorry for the people who march stuck - as they are - in ancient, destructive tribalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:29 AM

"Well, I watched the video and it would not horrify me having a bunch of men ranging from old to young playing flutes and drums and ambling down a street..now if that street was chosen to find the most Catholic neighborhood where they had not traditionally marched, then it would be wrong to permit it. If there is too much violence that results from where they traditionally have it, ideally the violencers should be the ones stopped but that is not always possible and you have to bow to public safety and probably move the event.

But there is no reason other than public safety, and these people did not seem aggressive in their bowler hats and umbrellas, for us to meddle with their tradition or holiday. And as it gets safer for everyone, it will be more fun besides....kids on trikes and horses with orange ribbons...

We mess with other peoples' heritage at our peril because the tide will turn and they will want to quash our own. There is no reason that fathers and sons and grandsons should not assemble and peacefully march in their traditional areas..except public safety must trump other issues. And I think I will celebrate the day from now on..take the good and leave the bad of any cultural group.   mg"


I can only assume this post is meant to be satire...mg, are you the one who also loudly defends your right to drink green beer and play Bing Crosby records on St Patrick's Day?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:45 AM

Tunesmith,
"Keith says that there are thousands of such parades but only a few are contentious. "

I did not say that.
It was the Sinn Fein MNA who said that.
In what way is he misinformed?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:00 AM

I don't care who said it because it is just not true. Southport has, historically, no connections with either side in this matter, and yet the locals don't like the march and see it as an unhealthy dislay of tribalism. That being the case, how must similar marches be viewed by, probably, millions of people living in Ireland?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:50 AM

Tunesmith, you and I both live in England, so our opinions are of limited value on this.
If you want to be believed over the Ardoyne Sinn Fein MNA, you need to give us a good reason.
You could start by telling us how you canvassed the people of Southport, England.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 07:23 AM

Some nice pics of Southport parade, and a link to BBC video and report.
http://www.southportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50433495

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 10:18 AM

"We mess with other peoples' heritage at our peril"
Sorry Ruth; you have managed to have ignore the points made about the threatening nature of these marches - apart from their historical role it is enough, as far as I am concerned to witness the three night of rioting on the street of Belfast they have already provoked - and the season has only just started.
I have always been disturbed by the 'good old country tradition' in Lewes of burning the Pope's effigy on Bonfire Night - and that's as an atheist. I know how I would feel if I were a Catholic maybe it wouldn't upset you?
I was not surprised when this added the nice touch of burning a Gypsy (or was it 'mumper's) caravan not so long ago. Oo-ar; yo can't beat these quaint old country customs, can ee.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 11:25 AM

Ruth Archer needs no defense from me but: Jim Carroll, read her post again. She was citing a post from mg.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 12:07 PM

Apologies Ruth - misdirected post which I hope reaches the intended recipient
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,Allan C
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 12:10 PM

"I have always been disturbed by the 'good old country tradition' in Lewes of burning the Pope's effigy on Bonfire Night - and that's as an atheist."

I understand it is not supposed to really be an effigy of the Pope per se - but rather an effigy of a particular Pope who was in office 400 years ago. They also have an effigy of Guy Fawkwes himself - as they do across Britain. The point is in Britain as a whole these things are looked on as traditions which commemorate evidents and conflicts of the distant past. Bonfire Night is commemorating the failure of an early 17thC terrorist attack which was going to be carried out by Catholic conspirators - however modern Bonfire Night isn't in itself anti-Catholic and certainly here in southern Scotland the Catholic kids celebrate it every bit as much as the Protestants do. Throughout most of Britain religious conflict and sectarianism is a thing of the dim and distant past and these festivities are just that innocent festivities.

In Jedburgh where I used to live they play an annual game called Hand-Ba (ball) which is played through the town. By tradition (whether bunkum or not) it was originally played with the severed heads of English captives. That doesn't mean though that the modern game is anti-English in any way. Likewise the various local Common Ridings all contain elements of memory of conflicts with Englishmen. Hawick with Hornshole; Jedburgh with Redeswire; Coldstream and Selkirk with Flodden etc. It doesn't mean the modern participators and organisers are anti-English or that anyone would be offended!

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 12:14 PM

People who want to be offended, will always find a reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 01:07 PM

"People who want to be offended, will always find a reason."
As will people who wish to give offence
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 03:11 PM

I can accept what you say about the pope's effigy Alan, though it still gives offence - a Catholic friend who strayed down there one Bonfire Night (in the 70s) summed it up by saying that all that was missing was the hoods and white robes.
That aside; the burning of an effigy of a gypsy caravan bearing the inscription "Diddys Out", goes to show how these things can be put to use by those who wish it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 04:43 PM

My post was not satire. Why should I have my rights to celebrate St. Patrick's day if I don't allow the same rights to others? And the more it is trivialized and everyone joins in and has a good time the better off everyone will be.

If they are waving banners that say death to Catholics, then stop them from doing that. If they are just putting on their Sunday suits and playing accordians and rambling down the road, whether or not I like them, or like the music, or the drums give me a headache, or their ancestors did bad things to mine, I have to let them proceed and in fact I should find a way to join them peacefully if they don't mind...if, and this is a big if, they just remind me of past wrongs, and they are not intentionally doing anything bad presently but I just don't like what they are doing, it is my duty to suck it up. Avoid it. Make other plans for the couple of hours it takes place. And control any teenagers I might have bred. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:01 PM

In case mg is deleted as a guest, he said,
My post was not satire. Why should I have my rights to celebrate St. Patrick's day if I don't allow the same rights to others? And the more it is trivialized and everyone joins in and has a good time the better off everyone will be.

If they are waving banners that say death to Catholics, then stop them from doing that. If they are just putting on their Sunday suits and playing accordians and rambling down the road, whether or not I like them, or like the music, or the drums give me a headache, or their ancestors did bad things to mine, I have to let them proceed and in fact I should find a way to join them peacefully if they don't mind...if, and this is a big if, they just remind me of past wrongs, and they are not intentionally doing anything bad presently but I just don't like what they are doing, it is my duty to suck it up. Avoid it. Make other plans for the couple of hours it takes place. And control any teenagers I might have bred. mg

If everyone showed such tolerance, the problems would vanish.
Jim said,
"you have managed to have ignore the points made about the threatening nature of these marches..
Please explain why and how they threaten you.
And what has Lewes got to do with Orange parades?MG uses a consistent identity, and is in no danger of being deleted.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:29 PM

"If everyone showed such tolerance, the problems would vanish."

On the contrary: if everyone showed such wilful and obtuse ignorance, the problems would only continue to be exacerbated.

There's a reason why South Africa needed a Truth and Reconciliation process. Acknowledging past wrongs and finding a way through them is one thing; sweeping them under the carpet and insisting that everyone should just get along, when one community still insists on their right to triumphalist celebrations of subjugation, is ridiculous.

mg is an American whose understanding of his/her own Irish-American St Patrick's Day celebrations are superficial and naive; his/her take on Orange marches are even more so. They cannot be understood by someone living in America who doesn't even engage with Irish American culture except on the most superficial and cliched level. Sorry.

Loz said: "The Orange marches are insulting and hurtful to Northern Irish Catholics as they are inextricably linked to the repression and subjugation of Catholics by Protestants in the North and they are inextricably linked to violence and humilation.

In this way they are comparable to the words Nigger and Paki, because those words were grown in the manure of racial violence and humiliation."

Spot on. And that's why, mg, you can't solve the problem by everyone just tooting on their flutes. If the KKK insisted on marching through Harlem, would you suggest that the black residents' response should be to chuck on hoods and put burning crosses on their own lawns?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:40 PM

Aye it's terrible, these Americans talking about things they know nothing about :)

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:47 PM

I am so sorry to be cliched. My Irish American culture pretty much consisted of green jello and ice cream when you sliced it a shamrock showed up in the middle. I would wish for little Orange children the same type of ice cream..with a nice orange in the middle. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:54 PM

And furthermore, it is the height of bad manners according to my rulebook to insult someone's heritage, cliched or not. And who knows how much I engage with Irish American culture? I live in a place populated by Finns and I hope to make it to Finnfest next week. Sometimes all people have is little memories or little snippets. Sometimes their culture was stamped out. Sometimes they were too ashamed of aspects of it and denied it. Sometimes they married out of it. All sorts of reasons to not have the full throttle approved cultural heritage. Does not excuse insulting someone's heritage, broken and spotted as it might be. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:56 PM

And furthermore I have the Dubliners singing Molly Malone on youtube right now so put that in your clay pipe and smoke it. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:15 PM

Ruth Archer asks a valid question, mg: "If the KKK insisted on marching through Harlem, would you suggest that the black residents' response should be to chuck on hoods and put burning crosses on their own lawns?" In other words, just suck it up?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:16 PM

And furthermore my Irish American heritage consists of people dying in the famine, and then coming over here possibly to Grosse Isle..not sure...my Irish American heritage consists of knowing not until a couple of years ago even the names of my ancestors or where they were from. It consists of people working on the canals and then on the railroads and freezing to death and going insane from the hardships.

Any further comments on my Irish American heritage or lack thereof? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:16 PM

"And furthermore I have the Dubliners singing Molly Malone on youtube right now"

Well, obviously it doesn't get much more hardcore than that.

McKenzie, I have lived half my life in this country and half in the US, and lived for many years with friends from Derry, Belfast and the Ardoyne.

So, as we Americans say, bite me.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:19 PM

And quite possibly it includes being taken as slaves to Barbados. Not immediate ancestors but relatives. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:26 PM

And furthermore no need to insult Bing Crosby. He was a family friend..or his father was actually to my grandfather. His father started either Knights of Columbus or Holy Name Society in Tacoma. My grandfather was supposedly a great singer. Perhaps he liked cliched songs..and perhaps he influenced young Bing with his singing of cliched songs. Maybe it is his fault. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:33 PM

You tell 'em, Mary. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:33 PM

mg, more relevant than Bing Crosby, Molly Malone or your family history is this question, which you don't seem to want to answer:

"If the KKK insisted on marching through Harlem, would you suggest that the black residents' response should be to chuck on hoods and put burning crosses on their own lawns?"

Because that's the equivalent of what you are asking of the Catholic community in NI during marching season.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:35 PM

And furthermore my Irish American heritage includes writing songs in their honor.
1. About the soupers.
2. About leaving Dingle.
3. Dingle to Tralee -- about dragging a dying man in a cart to the workhouse in Tralee after you have eaten the donkey.
4. Jack Moriarty -- about the last dance between father and son and father putting his son on a coffin ship to New Brunswick.
5. Gross Isle -- about throwing the dead and alive off the ship with the alive dying in the mud after making it across the ocean and surviving the cholera on board
6. About the railroads and people dying of exhaustion building them.

I would like to make it 7 about people feeling free to insult my ancestors. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:39 PM

"I would like to make it 7 about people feeling free to insult my ancestors."

Erm, as someone of Irish American heritage I don't think I was insulting your ancestors or my own - I think I was suggesting that you need to learn a bit more about what is actually happening in NI in 2010 before proposing such facile "solutions".

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:49 PM

and furthermore, here are the families entertwined with mined, possibly immigrating together, marrying together, working on canals together that I and my second cousins (I do not have first cousins because my grandfather died of Spanish flu before giving my father more siblings)...are trying to sort out.

James and Catherine McGuire
Susanna McGreevy
Michael and Margaret Noonan
Batt and Hanora Crehan
Mary Doolin adn Cornelius Sullivan
James Shanahan
Patrick Dulin
Joseph Ryan and Catherine Burns
Daniel McGreevy
Thomas cGreevy
John S. and Kate Sullivan
Andrew and Bridget Quinn
John H and Jennie Priest
William Garveya nd Nora Cavanaugh
James Eagan and Catherine O'Brian
John O'Brian and Bridget ROach
Patrick Eagan
Thomas Powers
Barney and Catherine Finegan
Thomas and Margaret Flinn
William kelly and Rosanna Devery
Lawrence Carlin Mary Flinn
Thomas and Bridget Moriarty
Edward and Catherine Moriarty
Sylvester and Catherine Moriarty
Margaret Flinn
John Brown and ? O'Riley.
Patrick and Elizabeth Malone
Maurice Cavanaugh and Marie Cannadie
Michael McGahan
Maurice Cahalan and Maria Crowe
Maurice Fitzgerald and Ellen Sullvian
Katherine Fitzgerald
Edward and Margaret Flinn
John and Mary Ann Crowe
Edward abd Mary Flinn
John Branigan
Maurice Brown nd Helen Moriarty
Peter Carlin and Bridget Collins
Johyn and Johana Sheehy
John and Lizzie Kneeland
Michael and Mary Sullivan
Patrick and Mary SUllivan
Cornelius and Mary Sullivan
James and Nan Sullivan
Michael and Johannah Fitzgerald
James SUllivan and Mary Fenton
Timothy and Johanna Leehy
Sulvester White
Andrew and Bridgett Quinn
Serry Finegan and Alice
Thomas and Mary Finegan
Thomas and Rose Morris
Patrick and Bridget Morris McGreevey
Michael Murphy and Margaret
John Murphy and Catherine Hargan
Pat Murphy and Ellen Manning
James Kelly and Rose

Well, that is enough for now. If anyone more culturally attuned than me can help me sort these out, I believe many came from County Kerry..Dingle area specifically. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:51 PM

And that list of names is relevant because...?

More to the point: "If the KKK insisted on marching through Harlem, would you suggest that the black residents' response should be to chuck on hoods and put burning crosses on their own lawns?"

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:55 PM

more to the point and I can barely stand to respond to you because I think you are so rude, no to KKK, no to marching through Harlem.

However, if a southern group of say Confederate veterans were still alive and wanted to peacefully march to remember their fallen comrades in a place where from 1860 or whenver they have continually done so, say in Georgia, yes. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 07:09 PM

Well, I can barely bring myself to respond to you because you insist on waving your profound ignorance like a flag (a big ol' Jello-green flag, in fact), but I'll press on...

"However, if a southern group of say Confederate veterans were still alive and wanted to peacefully march to remember their fallen comrades in a place where from 1860 or whenver they have continually done so, say in Georgia, yes. mg"

Actually, that is a staggering enough admission, given that even flying the Confederate flag in the south is a hugely politically-charged act. But this isn't about people remembering "fallen comrades" - this is a celebration of subjugation and oppression. See, you're trying to rob the situation of its context and its political charge. And you simply can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 08:02 PM

I am done with you. You are rude and offensive and from now on I will not read what you have to say, and you are in the dubious company of two other rude and offensive people that I will not read. When i say done I mean done..out of my life period. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Melissa
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 09:09 PM

mg,
It looks to me like you are a little bit sensitive to the perspective of some of our fellow posters.
I don't see anything particularly obnoxious about the variety of viewpoints in this thread but that doesn't make your reaction any less valid in my mind.

I would not be bothered if the posters you see as rude and offensive paraded in front of my house (or in the middle of whatever threads I happen to be following)or through the main street of my hometown.
It's a matter of context.
This forum tiff means nothing to me because I'm an unaffected outsider--sort of like some of us are outsiders to the thread topic and no matter what our notions are or how ready we may be to judge, what we have are the perceptions our imagination provides.
That's not the same as real experience.

Would it bother you if you knew there was a certain weekend that the posters who've ruffled your feathers would bring their friends and march up and down your road? Would you detest a celebration marking the day they pissed you off enough for you to be completely done with them?
Would you hate feeling like they were making a big show of rubbing your face in it?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: mg
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 10:05 PM

If they had always marched up and down that road banging their drums on the same day each year in the same way and did not start it up because I quarreled with them, then it would be my duty to of course put up with their parade. I would try to go to the library for the duration. l mg

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 11:16 PM

I dunno, Melissa. I've seen the marchers in Armagh. They may have been completely legal in what they were doing, but they still scared me half to death.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 12:01 AM

Some groups are pretty scary when they go tromping around intimidatingly!

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 12:19 AM

Well, I confess that I'm glad I saw the marchers. There was something very interesting about seeing all those men in blacks suits and tie with white shirts and bowler hats. But yeah, they were scary.
Here in the Sierra Nevada Foothills of California, we have E. Clampus Vitus, a bunch of redneck drunk guys in miner's clothing - and sometimes with guns. They can be scary too - but interesting.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 02:36 AM

When my boys were small, they saw a Chinese dragon in a parade that really scared them, and that was meant to be scary.
I am an outsider without experience of Orange parades, but to me they do not seem intended to scare.
Joe, you said it scared you half to death, but the only reason you could give was their unusual dress.
That is their traditional dress.
Apart from that was there anything overtly threatening or hostile?
You are being honest about the effect on you, but if it was just a subjective, irrational response to their appearance, that was not their fault.

Your honest opinion Joe.
Given that only a handful of the thousands of these parades cause any problems, should they be banned?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 03:13 AM

Joe;
I was interested that a visitor to Ireland found these marches "scary" - that's certainly how they have always struck me, and I grew up with them.
I can't recall anybody suggesting banning them altogether, but regulating them in order to curtail their threatening nature and preventing them from taking place anywhere near Nationalist areas just seems simple common sense to me - but that would rather go against their purpose, I suppose.
Regarding the latter, apparently the main trouble in the Nationalist areas has occured when, following a march that has been re-directed, the marchers make a point of returning through the forbidden areas en-masse, thus inciting the violence.
I notice that the Police Service of Northern Ireland have been informed that, on top of having around a dozen of their officers hurt in the recent rioting in Belfast, they now have to find the funding themselves for policing them, adding a further burden to their already seriously overstretched budget - but that's the price that has to be paid for keeping these quaint old traditions alive!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 03:35 AM

"curtail their threatening nature"
Bowler hats?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 03:37 AM

Jim, you did say about these marches,"While they are allowed to continue, so will the violence, and due to the delicate political situation in Ireland today, they are quite likely to escalate into full-scale warfare again, as they did in the past."

That does sound like you want them banned.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 04:52 AM

No - it sounds like I want the reasons for their taking place curtailed.
Look on and you will find I also said that there is nothing wrong with marching to celebrate - whatever.
Don't be selective - it's dishonest.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 05:13 AM

"No - it sounds like I want the reasons for their taking place curtailed"

I know I am just an eejit, but am I the only one baffled by that?
What does it mean Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 05:14 AM

Ruth Archer, have you ever been persecuted for you religion?.. I have
Were you brought up in a sectarian society?.. Well I was
I was brought up in and around Glasgow, and let me tell you, sectarianism is/was as rife in the west of Scotland, as it is in the Sick Counties.
I decided a long time ago, to be grown up about it, and not to take sides.
I am in favour of letting people celebrate old victories, all countries do it. I am also in favour of a united Ireland, it makes sense, and would right a wrong that is almost 90 years old.
Whether you use Londonderry or Derry, immediately betrays your leanings on the matter, so I find it best to call it both or refrain.
It really is an emotional minefield, and I suggest that rose tinted, or any other tint of spectacles, is not the best way to look at this question.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 06:58 AM

John
Your post neatly sidesteps the historical reasons for these marches taking place, the effect they have had and are continuing to have on the Catholic minority, and the cost of allowing them to go ahead in their present form, both in providing policing and in the risk they bring to life and the wellbeing of the communities affected.
They are weapons of sectarianism and by ignoring this fact you are condoning that sectarianism - for all your high-sounding protests.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:07 AM

How exactly are the parades "weapons of sectarianism"??
Exactly what effect are they having on the Catholic community?
Is anyone else complaining about costs?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:25 AM

As an outsider, it is hard not to gain the impression that some people simply can not bear to see the Protestant people happily and harmlessly doing their own thing once a year.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 09:19 AM

"They are weapons of sectarianism and by ignoring this fact you are condoning that sectarianism - for all your high-sounding protests."

True dat.

"As an outsider, it is hard not to gain the impression that some people simply can not bear to see the Protestant people happily and harmlessly doing their own thing once a year."

Let them do it outside of Catholic neighbourhoods, and we're good to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 09:25 AM

Since only a handful of the thousands of parades are contentious, we are pretty well there aren't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 09:29 AM

No. We won't be there until the parades in NI are re-routed away from Catholic areas. I would reiterate my parallel of the KKK marching through Harlem. You wouldn't like it and you wouldn't condone it, surely. It is an act specifically confrontational in its intent.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 09:53 AM

But Gerry Kelly says that all but a handful are NOT CONTENTIOUS.
No change needed.
Everybody happy.
Move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 10:08 AM

A KKK march in Harlem would be seriously contentious.
Most Orange marches are not.
A handful out of thousands.
The riots in Belfast were mostly sustained by activists bussed in by RIRA and school kids.

Assistant Chief Constable Duncan McCausland said: "This was a substantially smaller group of people than previous evenings, which included a hardened core of around 12 people who were intent on causing disorder.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0715/breaking17.html

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 10:12 AM

If the Disney corporation decided to open a theme park for 'recreational rioting' they would put it in the Ardoyne district of Belfast.

That is what a priest from Ardoyne suggested in the aftermath of the latest violence by young people in north Belfast.

The remarks by Fr Gary Donegan were tongue-in-cheek, but they signify the international damage being done to Northern Ireland's reputation as a model for conflict resolution.

The phrase 'recreational rioting' was made in Belfast, to describe the traditional outbreak of street disturbances once the summer school holidays begin.

After a third consecutive night of trouble, Fr Donegan said: "I pulled stones out of the hands of children.

"It was a bit like a Euro Disney theme park for rioting. It was ludicrous."

Most of the young rioters were simply bored kids looking for some excitement in an inner city area where they complain of having nothing else to do.

Children as young as eight-years-old have been involved in the violence.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern+ireland-10642007

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 10:54 AM

Can we just put into context the 'handful of contentious) marches.
These are the ones in Belfast and Derry; they are the most intimidating and they are targeted where they can give the greatest amount of offence; unsurprisingly - it is these that cause the most trouble.
Gerry Kelly's plea that the Loyalists should cop on to themselves is carefully steered around in this debate - not as convenient for the argument, I suppose.
It has been inferred throughout this debate and the Bloody Sunday one that, because I take the stance that I do, I am somehow waving the flag for the Nationalist side, yet here once again we have yet another attempt (by the one who shouts the loudest for the Unionist cause) to blame 'the other side' - see last post.
The Loyalists aren't the only ones who should cop on to themselves - all trouble is a response to the provocation caused by the marches and the practice of the marchers who have been banned from marching in Nationalist areas parading back through those forbidden areas when the march has officially finished.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 08:03 PM

After this date and time, no Guest messages will be allowed in this thread.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-
19 Jul 10 - 08:03 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Lox
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 10:17 AM

Just wanted to repost a couple of posts I made as a GUEST which Joe has kindly ressurected for me.

Post 1.

"Sandy, China had law on its side over Hong Kong. The lease expired."

Whose Law Keith?

The "unequal treaty" as it is known (signed at gunpoint by China)
stated that Hong Kong Island and Kowloon were to remain British in
perpetuity. Only the new territories were on loan for 99 years.

You don't go deep enough.

Ever.


Post 2.

"When my boys were small, they saw a Chinese dragon in a
parade that really scared them, and that was meant to be scary."

Exactly how is this meant to form the basis of a salient point about
Northern Ireland?


""curtail their threatening nature"
Bowler hats? "

Ever seen "A Clockwork Orange?" ....



"A KKK march in Harlem would be seriously contentious.
Most Orange marches are not.
A handful out of thousands."


A KKK March anywhere would be contentious.

The point is that a KKK March in Harlem would probably provoke a lot
of anger in Harlem.


The Orange Marches are contentious.

The evidence is the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 11:37 AM

The debate is not evidence because the participants are not a random sample.
You say the orange marches are contentious, but Sinn fein says overwhelmingly they are not.
In what way are you better informed than Sinn Fein?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 12:53 PM

What Sinn Fein actually said

"There are over 3000 orange marches each year. Irish republicans accept the right of the Order to parade and to promote its sense of orangeism.
But this has to be on the basis of equality and mutual respect and tolerance.
The overwhelming majority of orange parades take place without rancour or dispute. But there are a small number which each year give cause for concern.

Irrespective of the differences which exist between us, let us all focus on how to resolve the remaining handful of contentious parades in a spirit of mutual respect.
As a society, we cannot afford the negative and unsustainable political, financial and social costs from parading disputes" **

The Pardes Commission which was set up after the large-scale civil strife that followed the Drumcree conflict over an Orange Order parade in Portadown, has achieved some success by placing restrictions on or banning outright any parades in Northern Ireland it deems contentious or offensive however the Grand Lodge of the Order has a policy of non-engagement with the Commission and there are still disputes as to whether this is done to the letter of the law in certain areas.


Bowler hats may not be offensive in thenselves but one feature of these parades, the bannerettes carried by the lodges through Nationalist residential areas, most certainly can be!

For example -
In 2007 a commemorative banner honouring UVF gunman Noel Kinner was carried by members of the Scottish Sons of Ulster Flute Band during the Orange Order's Whiterock parade. Noel Kinner was convicted of killing Brendan McLaughlin just a couple of hundred yards away from where this banner was displayed.

Brian Robinson a UVF and lodge member who was shot dead on 2/9/1989 by a British Army undercover team, just after he shot dead a catholic resident of Ardoyne, Patrick McKenna, has also been 'honoured' on a parade banner.

** an open letter to the Orange Order from Gerry Adams

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: ollaimh
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 02:21 PM

the founding documents of the orange order atated they were dedicated to the elimination of catholicism and the gaelic language and they advocated violence to do so. they were founded as an openly racist and violent order. they have been successfull in usi8ng a militant minority to alter the course of events.

they have ammended the foun ding documents but they still celebrate domination.

the fight between the loast stuarts and the house of orange was about the anti catholic bigotry of parliament. they had to go to the fifty first heir among the stuart descendants to dind a protestant, over looking the first fifty in line, purely for religion.

catholics were barred from p0ublic office, from many professions and from government jobs--except the army. all open discrimination that the orange order kept alive long after partition. oe of the choef items of the good friday agreement is that governmant jobs have to be shared equally now. the police and army will not be all protestant any more. that means the loyalist paramilitary will no longer be able to operate from the corner of their desk in the police offices or the army.\\

again all this was found and admitted to in parliament after the publication of the tripartite report on northernireland. for the record if you have never read at least a symopsis of thatreport you really have no right to an opinion on these issues

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 04:34 PM

Jim,
"These are the ones in Belfast and Derry; they are the most intimidating and they are targeted where they can give the greatest amount of offence; unsurprisingly - it is these that cause the most trouble.

.... all trouble is a response to the provocation caused by the marches and the practice of the marchers who have been banned from marching in Nationalist areas parading back through those forbidden areas when the march has officially finished."

Well Jim, the recent trouble started before the first parade.
A gang tried to attack a bonfire party within the Unionist community the night before a parade.
The big Derry parade was peaceful. No trouble at all.

Jim, you have said that the parades are wrong and should stop, even if they are harmless and traditional celebrations.
Are the dissident bombs wrong?
Should they stop?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:21 PM

Keith
Last reply to your inane questions
The troubles caused by these triumphalist marches cannot be judged on a yearly basis - they are a continual provocation that dates back certainly thoughout the 20th century and started a long time before you and I were born
"Are the dissident bombs wrong?"
of course they are wrong, as are the provocations which instigate them and keep them alive, like your provocative marches. I don't take sides, unlike you. Who has ever said that bombs are right?
You, on the other hand, have certainly thrown your support behind Unionist provocation, as everybody has been pointing out to you, but you don't listen, also as everybody has been pointing out to you.
Anyway - you told us not long ago that the troubles were all over in the Six Counties, the police had them all under control and any problems on the 12th were "skirmishes" - so what's it to be yes or no, still with us or gone?
Leave me alone please; you really haven't anything to offer by way of sensible argument or information.
Now go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 01:57 AM

It is another lie to say I have supported "Unionist provocation".
I merely ask, as an outsider, what is so provocative about a parade?
It seems to me like a sectarian resentment of the other side enjoying their own cultural heritage.

And the people of the North seem to agree with me.
No protests about thousands of the parades, including the big Derry parades.
The "rioters" in Belfast turned out to be bored school children and a few activists bussed in to create trouble.

The Troubles are over Jim, unless you think we have to wait until not one person wants to resort to violence!

How is it inane to ask if you think dissident bombs are wrong?
Some people obviously think they are not, and you might be one.
After all, you refuse to say that Hamas rocketing of civilians is wrong.

"Leave me alone please."
Don't be such a wimp Jim.
No one made you get into this.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 04:41 AM

WHY IS THIS THREAD STILL WEARING THE TITULAR ADDITION DRUMCREE PARADE, INSERTED BY SOME IGNORANT CLONE?
It has nothing to do with Drumcree, it's about sectarian strife in general, and about the annual marches of the Orange order, of which there are many, in many different locations, and in more than one country.
I do wish people would get their facts straight!

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 03:42 PM

John ! As is so often the case , its 'Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument (OR Fight)

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 03:49 PM

Most of the marches are tolerable enough, and are tolerated.

Some are intended as provocation, and not unaturally, they succeed in provoking oppoition.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 05:03 PM

McGrath, no one was provoked this year.
The people of the North have moved on.
Jim says we must look back, but he is wrong and dangerously so.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 05:58 PM

"no one was provoked this year."
Except for the three days of rioting of course - which was not made up of childern as was stupidly claimed, though some of the rioters were teenagers.
The fact that the three days of rioting included some teenagers is proof that you have a potential future generation of dissidents
We are at present in the middle of bombs being smuggled over the border, car bombings and shootings in the North - probably kids having a bit of fun though
The police have been refused financial assistance to cover the massive bill for riot control, so ortdinatry policing in a very disturbed part of these islands (look at the rise in crime)
Mind you, we are told on this thread that there is no problem with the marches, and he was over here and saw a march once - (in a country town), which negates the rioting I grew up with every 12th of July - I have to bow to his superior experience
What planet does that fecking moron live on - you know the one I mean - the prat who wishes all the Irish would go back to Ireland?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 06:56 PM

"ordinatry policing in a very disturbed part of these islands (look at the rise in crime)"
Should read "ordinatry policing in a very disturbed part of these islands (look at the rise in crime)" is now severely curtailed
Sorry for the error, but the arrogance and ignorance of this unbelievable burk who neither offers information of his own (except that which he has cut and pasted), nor listens to the information of people who have seen this shit up close, is beginning to get to me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 03:22 AM

Jim again attacks me, not what I say.
I have expressed the wish that all parts of Ireland should leave the UK, not that Irish people should leave.
My own dear daughter in law who presented me with my first grandson this year is Irish.
Two years ago a nephew married a girl from Down, (though as a protestant you might not regard her as Irish.)

Thousands of parades this year and the only trouble was in Belfast and it started before the march.

After a third consecutive night of trouble, Fr Donegan said: "I pulled stones out of the hands of children.

"It was a bit like a Euro Disney theme park for rioting. It was ludicrous."

Most of the young rioters were simply bored kids looking for some excitement in an inner city area where they complain of having nothing else to do.

Children as young as eight years old have been involved in the violence.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern+ireland-10642007

Sinn Féin's Gerry Kelly said dissident republicans, from the Real IRA, were orchestrating the violence.

At the height of the rioting women in Ardoyne found children playing with a loaded rifle and handed it into police.

Petrol bombs, fireworks, stones, and bottles were thrown at police after they tried to move rioters away from a parade route. Two of three hijacked vans were pushed at police lines.

The Ardoyne priest Father Gary Donegan said the trouble was started by outsiders.

"Myself and many people were looking at people last night that we'd never seen in the area before in our lives.

"It was as if people had been bussed into the area for this very purpose and that this was being very much orchestrated," he said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jul/14/belfast-riots-real-ira-blame

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 04:20 AM

Keith
You have persistantly supported these marches, watering down their purpose and the effect they have on those they are aimed against.
You said what you said about the Irish and it's on record.
You have never witnessed an Orange march in full flight so you have no right whatever to pass them off as a days outing; they are aggressive parades designed to show the 'superiority' of those who organise them and to intimidate one third of the population of the six counties.
I don't give two tosses who started the trouble this year or any year, the root cause of any violence is the marches themselves - that is what they are there for. This year's rioting is amongst the most violent and persistant since the troubles 'ended'. The 'children' who took part might well turn out to be the bomb-throwers of the future - the trouble has not gone away and the riots are a proof of that - whoever is responsible for them and the continued terrorist activities
Do I believe your daughter-in-law is Irish - of course I do - it is you and your kind who have tried to make the natives of the six counties of Ireland English - this is what all this is about, you stupid little man.
Some time ago you complained of my re-opening a thread that had closed - just as you have done here.
I participate in these threads to learn from others and to pass on anything I might have to offer.
You do not listren to what others say and you seem to have no original ideas of your own - why are you here?
If you have any concern for the future of your grandson, try to have a little thought of the legacy you are passing on to him and the other Irish children in the Six Counties.
This is probably the best description of the Orange Order and its activities I have come across, from Leon Uris's 'Ireland - A Terrible Beauty.
Jim Carroll
PS Apologies that the piece I have included has so many paragraphs and big words

THE ORANGE ORDER
The Orange Order was molded on a pseudo-Masonic structure replete with secret oaths, handshakes, and passwords with an enormity of prayer and a rash of exotic-sounding ranks such as Royal Scarlets, Purple Marksmen, Black Perceptories, Apron and Blue, Link and Chain. The founding principles, quite unchanged, were allegiance to the Crown, upholding the Protestant Ascendancy, and hatred of Catholics.
At first there was a cautious and mixed reaction from the gentry. With the coming of the nineteenth century and the drive for Catholic emancipation, the gentry began to find the Orange Order usable. "Gentlemen's Lodges," largely political in char¬acter, sprang up to tangle with the issues. A yearly march and a patronising pat on the head, to the lesser brothers brought these two unlikely ends of the society together in common cause. The grass-roots and universal membership gave the "Gentlemen's Lodges" an outside muscle.
An infusion of preachers in the early 1800s served to give the ordinary lodges a semblance of respectability. The preachers could talk directly to the common man, who essentially had banded together for self-protection. The Orange pot was always kept stewing with stories that the Pope and his convincing Jesuits were planning night and day to take over Ulster. Always militant and always ready, the Orangemen have proved to be easily incited. Beginning with the Rev. Dr. Henry Cooke and on through Drew and "Roaring" Hanna, an assembly line of rabble-rousing preachers have often parlayed sermons into anti-Catholic riots.
The Orange Order filtered and infected the bloodstream of Ulster until the order became the power base of the province. It was the establishment, with absolute control over the moral ethic, the police, the political machinery, and the courts. The Grandmaster of a lodge was a power who could ensure the job and well-being of a family. Failure to join or bucking the Orange Order by an individual in a given neighborhood, trade, or village was impossible, and the free thought of men who believed themselves to be free was destroyed.
The Unionist Party was born out of an Orange Hall in 1885 in response to the first home rule threat. Unionists have since become the political arm of the order, able to apply the kinds of threats and pressure that resulted in a history of British appeasement to Ulster.
It is hard to tell where one ended and the other began, but the Orange Order, the Unionist Party, and the Protestant Church formed an unholy trinity that kept the province in a strangle¬hold.
Orangeism finds public expression in a series of annual rituals, medieval in character and ugly in concept. It erupts into life during "the marching season."
The tune is set by the Lambeg drum, an ancient Scottish weapon of psychological warfare. It is up to four feet thick and five feet in diameter and tattooed by bamboo canes lashed to the wrists of the drummer by leather straps. The sound of it was designed to throw fear into the heart of the foe. It does. When it is carried on long frenzied marches, the drummer's wrists are often slashed open by the leather and his blood spatters against the drumhead. Many a Catholic child was first introduced to terror by the cannonade of the Lambeg drum.
The wee province bursts out with hundreds of thousands of Union Jacks and Ulster flags from every loyal house. There is nothing to compare with it in all the Crown's domains. Festive archways are larded with slogans that tell the Ulster story. REMEMBER 1690 (the Boyne); NOT AN INCH (the border dispute); GOD SAVE THE QUEEN, GOD SAVE ULSTER (loyalty); ULSTER WILL FIGHT AND ULSTER WILL BE RIGHT (anti-home rule); IN GLORIOUS REMEMBRANCE (of some vic¬tory or the other over the Catholic); FOR GOD AND ULSTER; and, of course, NO SURRENDER (the eternal siege).
Parades are marched from one end of the province to the other, grim, humorless trampings of righteous wrath. The fin of two grand climaxes comes on the twelfth of July to celebration William's victory at the Boyne. Tens of dozens of Loyal Lodges converge on Belfast. Throughout the night bonfires blaze, the Pope is kicked in effigy, prayers are prayed and the old tune cranked up and sung with swelling pride.
The standard of the lyrics gives an idea of just how far the people have been manipulated. Among the things the roe of the Orange Order did not bring to their beloved province were literature, music, and art. They are the ones mainly responsible for the place being a cultural desert.

CROPPIES LIE DOWN
Poor Croppies, ye know that your sentence was come,
When you heard the dread sound of the Protestant drum.
In memory of William we hoisted his flag,
And soon the bright Orange put down the Green rag.

THE PROTESTANT BOYS
The Protestant boys are loyal and true,
Stout-hearted in battle, and stout-handed too:
The Protestant boys are true to the last,
And faithful and peaceful when danger has passed.

DERRY'S WALLS
. . . For blood did flow in crimson streams,
On many a winter's night.
They knew the Lord was on their side,
To help them in the fight.

. . . At last, at last with one broadside Kind heaven sent them aid. . . .

A ROPE, A ROPE TO HANG THE POPE
A rope, a rope
Tae hang the Pope!
A pennyworth o' cheese
Tae choke him!
A pint o' lamp oil Tae wrench it down
And a big hot give Tae roast him!

When I was sick,
And very, very sick,
And very near a-dying,
The only thing that raised me up
Was to see
The old whore frying.

Or consider some of the poetry, this one by no means the worst of the lot.

Scarlet Church of all uncleanness,
Sink thou to deep abyss,
To the orgies of obsceneness
Where the hell-bound furies hiss;
Where thy father Satan's eye
May hail thee, blood-stained Papacy!

Harlot! Cease thy midnight rambles,
Prowling for the life of saints,
Henceforth sit in hellish shambles
Where the scent of murder taints
Every gale that passeth by,
Ogre, ghoul of Papacy!

Leading his lodge in solemn remembrance, the Grandmaster, white-gloved, sword in hand, walks reverently behind a Bible borne on velvet cushion, encased in glass and topped with a crown.
The banners of Loyal Lodge after Loyal Lodge swear temper¬ance, allegiance, and loyalty: CARSON'S TRUE BLUES, DERRY'S
DEFENDERS, STEAMFITTERS TOTAL TEMPERANCE, ACT OF COV¬ENANT, LOYAL LADS OF LARNE. . . . Tribal brothers all banded together in black bowlers, black rolled umbrellas, and sashes are piped on through by a hundred bands taunting close to Catholic neighborhoods or through the middle of them, while Shankill and Sandy Row toughs dance headily alongside the marchers, swept up by the wine of might.
By the time they reach Finaghy Field they've slowed to a limp, and they sprawl about to hear the old harangues from the old haranguers.
The next day at Scarva a mock Battle of the Boyne is re-enacted, and a month later it happens all over again as they go on pilgrimage to Derry to celebrate the siege.
If times are bad and passions high and fears of livelihood consuming, it might all be topped off with a bit of rioting against the Catholics.
To continue to intimidate and debase one third of their nation, it is entirely necessary to live in the past. They will relive Boyne and Derry until they make their earthly departure, and then their sons will be brought to wear the sash their fathers wore. As the pilot preparing to land at Belfast Airport said over the loudspeaker, "We are about to land in Ulster. Set your watches back three hundred years."

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 05:28 AM

My daughter in law is Irish Catholic, my nephew's wife is Irish Protestant.
Some on both sides would not regard the latter as Irish. Referring to that does not make me a stupid little man, though I am not very tall.

What I said about the Irish is indeed on record.
I have said I love Ireland and all things Irish.
I have said I have yet to meet an Irish person I have not liked.
But I have also said I would like all parts out of UK.
I thought that you wanted that too Jim.

You say again that I support the parades.
Not true. They are of no consequence to me.
I just asked what you were all raging about.
Where was the harm?
All you can say is they are "provocative".
I only revived the thread when events had proved that they were not.

The Belfast riots were not provoked by a parade, they preceded it.
According to Sinn Fein, PSNI and the local priest, they were instigated by RIRA as part of their campaign of violence, which you say you do not support.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 05:58 AM

You said you would be glad to see the back of them (us) or some such words - you seemed to have the strange idea that I am Irish
"The Belfast riots were not provoked by a parade, they preceded it."
The Belfast riots were a response to the ongoing provocation that takes place this time every year. I described what these provocations were, you choose not to comment on them as they discredit the side you have chosen to support.
Attempting to pass them off as harmless days out (would you like me to select wheer you have made such suggestions?), IS SUPPORTING THEM, as is attempting to place the blame on those who react to such abuse.
"Referring to that does not make me a stupid little man,"
Your whole attention seeking ignorant and bigoted attitude is what makes you a stupid little man. Your apparent ignorance of the root cause of the Irish question just confirms it.
Now will you piss off?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:51 AM

Jim, "The Belfast riots were a response to the ongoing provocation that takes place this time every year"

Wrong Jim.
From my BBC link above,"The phrase 'recreational rioting' was made in Belfast, to describe the traditional outbreak of street disturbances once the summer school holidays begin."

Bored school children, and dissidents fomenting violence for their own purposes. Nothing to do with a parade.
Thousands of parades and that was the only trouble.
Even the huge Apprentice Boys march in Derry passed off peacefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 07:17 AM

From your Irish Times Jim.
Some of the rioters were as young as eight. Others travelled all the way from Dublin, to take part in the organised chaos of Belfast's Twelfth of July.

Fr Gary Donegan, a local priest, noted how many of the adults at Ardoyne on the Twelfth were not from the area. That was obvious from the Dublin, southern and other non-Belfast accents that were heard. One Dubliner was brazen about it. "We are here to show solidarity with the residents," he said. Local community leaders said it was solidarity Ardoyne could have done without.

The trouble continued during the week. On Tuesday night Fr Donegan stopped a youngster with stones in his hands to throw "at the Prods". The priest took his stones; the boy was nine and had walked two and a half kilometres from Oldpark to join in the trouble. Fr Donegan was not alone in wondering about the lack of parental control.

Young rioters were drawn by texts and social-networking sites. Young teenage girls dressed up to watch their boyfriends hurl petrol bombs and stones: "Like models on a Milan catwalk," said Fr Donegan.

Most locals abhorred the violence and resented the visitors.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/0717/1224274875920.html

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 08:18 AM

I know what The Irish Times said and have said it doesn't matter who started it - unlike you I haven't taken sides
I have also said that this is only a small part of the cycle of violence that is as old as the Six County State itself and is a direct result of political situation pertaining there
Trying to dissacociate this violence from its political cases in order to blame 'the other side' and in particular, children, is as despicable as any of your arguments - every bit as spineless as blaming a handful of soldiers rather than the officers who were, or should have been responsible for the act of murder of 14 demonstrators on Bloody Sunday
The overall cause of both is a result of the political situation still existing in the state and directly caused by the annual provocation that takes place there
You have seen a description of that provocation AND YOU STILL REMAIN SILENT - which is no different than supporting, it as you always have.
THE END
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 08:39 AM

And perhaps you'd like to see the reports linking the rioting to the marching season - and not trying to pass it of as schoolboy high spirits
Jim Carroll

BELFAST RIOTS CONTINUE FOR THIRD NIGHT
Northern Ireland politicians unite to condemn 'thuggery and vandalism' after shots were fired at police
Police in Belfast have come under gunfire for a third successive night, with Northern Ireland's political leaders condemning those behind the violence.
In Ardoyne, the scene of Monday night's major disturbances, a lone attacker armed with a handgun fired four to six shots as police clashed with masked men. No one was injured by the shots, which witnesses said appeared to have been aimed at a police surveillance camera recording the rioters.
Police officers in the nationalist area of north Belfast responded with water cannon as they came under fire from petrol bombs and at least one homemade grenade.
Northern Ireland's first minister, Peter Robinson, and the deputy first minister, Martin McGuinness, denounced the "thuggery and vandalism" of the rioters and defended their political efforts to ease tensions over controversial parades. Violence surrounding 12 July Orange Order marches left 82 officers injured.
The Northern Ireland police assistant chief constable, Alistair Finlay, had earlier criticised politicians for failing to be "proactive" in addressing the problems posed by the marching season. "We didn't see joined-up, strategic leadership," he said.
Police have blamed dissident republicans opposed to the peace process for the violence that reached a height in Ardoyne on Monday night, where police came under sustained attack. In the most serious incident of the night a female police officer had a concrete block thrown at her head. She remains in hospital where she is said to be stable.
Robinson, the Democratic Unionist party leader, and McGuinness of Sinn Féin issued a joint statement condemning the violence and highlighted their efforts to secure a lasting solution over the marches.
"I am disgusted at the outright thuggery and vandalism that has taken place over the course of the last 48 hours," said Robinson.
"There is no excuse and no place for violence in civilised society. Both the deputy first minister and I have been, and will continue, to work for a resolution of the difficulties around parading."
McGuinness said they were working on legislation that would provide a framework for contentious parades.
Robinson added: "I am disappointed to hear some of the comments from ACC Finlay and look forward to meeting with the chief constable shortly to discuss the events of the last 48 hours and ACC Finlay's unhelpful and unacceptable remarks.
"We must keep our entire focus on defeating those who would seek through violence and destruction to drag us back."
Yesterday police worked successfully with community representatives in the nationalist Short Strand, Markets and lower Ormeau areas to tackle attempts by youths to spark violence.
The vast majority of parades pass off peacefully on 12 July, the height of the loyal orders' marching season.
But in a relatively small number of areas parades continue to cause tensions between rival communities.
Robinson and McGuinness were central to negotiations at Hillsborough Castle earlier this year that brokered deals on the devolution of policing powers and on creating new legislation on parades.
Last week the Orange Order rejected the draft proposals that would replace the government-appointed Parades Commission with a new system to broker local solutions to parade standoffs.
Margaret Ritchie, the leader of the nationalist Social Democratic and Labour party, said rioters had caused "a massive trail of destruction", but she blamed parade proposals by the DUP and Sinn Féin for adding to instability.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 08:57 AM

Thanks Jim.
An extract.
"Police have blamed dissident republicans opposed to the peace process for the violence that reached a height in Ardoyne on Monday night, where police came under sustained attack"

Not local people opposed to a parade, but dissident Republicans opposed to the peace process.
They care about as much about the parades as I do.

The local people did not have an issue with the parade.
And of all the thousands of parades, that was the only trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 09:32 AM

As I said, you obviously have no experience of how these obscenities, (which you do not care about, still have not commented on and have defended up to now, and continue to do so with your silence) affect the local population.
Where do you think the dissidents came from - the moon? They come from within the local communities and, as you have pointed out, include the young people of that population - the marches create dissidence = dissidents.
DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THE ABUSE RISING FROM THE MARCHES, AS QUOTED ABOVE, IS HARMLESS FUN, AND DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT THESE MARCHES SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE AS THEY HAVE DONE IN THE PAST???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 09:41 AM

I believe that the dissidents represent a tiny proportion of the population and have little support.
Why should we pander to their demands?

"DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THE ABUSE RISING FROM THE MARCHES, AS QUOTED ABOVE, IS HARMLESS FUN,"

There is certainly harmless fun being had.

"AND DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT THESE MARCHES SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE AS THEY HAVE DONE IN THE PAST???"

Yes. If the people affected have no issues, why not.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 09:50 AM

I am not, as you will inevitably claim, supporting the parades.
I am just against banning anything that is enjoyed and is harmless.
I am quite liberal in that respect.
No convincing argument has emerged for them being harmful, and no one has objected to any of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 10:40 AM

Thank you for the clarification
Despite your denials you have made it abundantly clear that you fully support the abuse hurled against the nationalists on Northern Ireland on the 'Glorious 12th' which makes you no different than the sectarian thugs who hurl it, and is fully in line with your attitude to the massacre of unarmed demonstrators on boody Sunday - I never doubted it for a moment
I suggest you read Uris's description again just to refresh your tiny mind what you are supporting.
Liberal my arseum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 11:09 AM

Oh Jim.
"Despite your denials you have made it abundantly clear that you fully support the abuse hurled against the nationalists on Northern Ireland on the 'Glorious 12th' "

Abuse and much worse was hurled in the opposite direction too.
No comment from Jim
The dissidents behind the riots just injured and terrified three little children with a bomb.
No comment from Jim.

You will not admit it, even to yourself, but look into your soul Jim.
Your problem with the parades is who they are, not what they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:24 AM

22nd June 'Bloody Sunday' thread;
Jim Carroll
"Have a good marching season"
Keith
"Have a good marching season?
You fool!
I am nothing to do with any of that crap."
"Like all my countrymen, I would love to be rid of the lot of you."

Out of the mouths of babes......
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:00 AM

You lie.
You change the clear meaning of my post by omitting key passages.

You said,"You are still arguing for the status quo,"

Next post I said
"Arguing for the staus quo?
Wrong again.
Like all my countrymen, I would love to be rid of the lot of you.
Just stop voting for NI to be British and we will all be happy."

You knew I was calling for a fully independent Ireland.
You try to gain points by deception.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:16 AM

Use this link to the exchange, and see which of us tells the truth.
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=130131#2932857
thread.cfm?threadid=130131#2932857

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:51 AM

You said what you said about the parades (which you have defended at length here) being crap, and you said what you said about being rid of the Irish, which is all that concerns us here.
Make up thy mind laddie - you can't have it both ways
game,set and match, I think
Have a nice day y'all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 06:05 AM

You judge decent people by your own prejudiced standards.
I do think that the parades are crap, but I am liberal enough to accept the cultural traditions of others.

I made only positive remarks about the Irish.
I said what I said, but you carefully edited it to make me sound as bigoted as you are.
We were discussing the status of Northern Ireland as part of UK.
You said I wanted to keep the status quo. I replied that the people of Britain did not want any part of Ireland in UK.
Same as you.

I would rather lose an argument than resort to lies and deceptions like you do.
You are beneath contempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 06:46 AM

"I made only positive remarks about the Irish
Yup - you posetively said you wanted toi be rid of us.
"Like all my countrymen, I would love to be rid of the lot of you."
Edited - where?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 07:05 AM

"cultural traditions"
It would seem that one man's cultural traditions.......

A ROPE, A ROPE TO HANG THE POPE
A rope, a rope
Tae hang the Pope!
A pennyworth o' cheese
Tae choke him!
A pint o' lamp oil Tae wrench it down
And a big hot give Tae roast him!

is another man's dignity and right to peace and safety

COMMISSION GIVES PARADE GO-AHEAD
DAN KEENAN
THE PARADES Commission has approved a late application for a revised route at a controversial loy¬alist band parade in Co Antrim, The DUP had warned earlier o this week that widespread trouble would be provoked following an it earlier decision to ban the return leg of a band parade through Rasharkin tomorrow night.
Opposition from nationalist pro¬testers has been voiced for the past two years to the parade which led to the original Parades Com¬mission determination to curtail the original march.
But following the submission of a revised return route for the Bally-maconnelly Sons of Conquerors and up to 40 other bands yes¬terday, the Parades Commission granted permission.
DUP Assembly member Mervyn Storey said the developments were common sense.
"This is a mature decision which should be praised," he said.
"Whilst the unrepresentative republican residents group has a goal to stop all things Protestant in the village, the band has went (sic) the extra mile to ensure a peaceful and safe evening for all in attend¬ance."
In a statement the Ballymacon-nelly Sons of Conquerors insisted they did not wish to see any trouble. "We will conduct our parade the same way we always have, with dignity and discipline," it stated.
In Belfast SDLP North Belfast Assembly member Alban Magin-ness led a party delegation to the Parades Commission offices yes¬terday in connection with another loyalist band parade at Ardoyne, the scene of three nights of rioting after July 12th.
Objecting to the Royal Black Preceptory parade in Ardoyne on August 28th, he said: "The SDLP expressed to the Parades Commis¬sion our grave concerns about the potential for serious disturbance in Ardoyne if the parade is allowed to go ahead. We made clear to the Parades Commission we are totally opposed to any band accom¬panying the parade as this will only lead to increased tensions in the area."
He called for the commission "to show consistency in their deci¬sion-making as this parade is essentially the same as the parade of August 14th which the^ commission placed restrictions on".
IRISH TIMES

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 07:30 AM

"Edited-where?"

My post
"Arguing for the staus quo?
Wrong again.
Like all my countrymen, I would love to be rid of the lot of you.
Just stop voting for NI to be British and we will all be happy."

You edited out the lines that showed we were discussing the status quo of NI, and that the problem was the voting habits of NI.
None of it relates to the Irish diaspora, as you hoped to make people believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 08:00 AM

Don't change a thing whatever way you try to wiggle out of it - send em back, plain and simple
And you said that the right to march which (as you can see from the artical, unsettles and threatens ordinary people) was crap - so why argue in favour of it in the first place.
Anyway - I've had my 'fun' this morning, so I'll let you back to what you do when you're not writing garbage
Byeee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 10:05 AM

" send em back, plain and simple"
To say that I have ever said or implied any such thing is a filthy lie and a wicked insult to the much loved Irish members of my extended family.

"And you said that the right to march which (as you can see from the artical, unsettles and threatens ordinary people) was crap"

Another lie.

You are a despicable liar.
Does anyone here defend his lies?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 02:08 PM

"Does anyone here defend his lies? "
Or think he is lying
Stalemate!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:34 PM

We were discussing the parades.
If they should be allowed.
You could not argue your case, so you made personal attacks on me instead.
You had nothing on me, so you had to lie, as you did before.
In any case, the things you made up about me did not affect the argument.
Supposing I really had previously thought they should be banned, I don't now.
Supposing I really did think Irish people should go home, how does that relate to the parades?

You can not argue a case so you make up lies about your opponent.
And you are blatant about it.
And you do not mind being labelled "liar."

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 05:08 PM

"Like all my countrymen, I would love to be rid of the lot of you."
Explain and stop whining
"I am nothing to do with any of that crap.""
Explain withing the context of your previous arguments on this thread and stop whining
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 07:01 PM

I have explained, but I am happy to rub your nose in your filth again.
I am nothing to do with any of that crap.
I live in Hertford, England.
The parades mean nothing to me.
You and others were railing against them in this thread.
I asked why.
You failed to convince me they should be banned.
They are not my thing, but why ban them?
That has been my consistent position throughout this thread.

The other thing.
We were discussing the status of NI, not people in England!
I could have chosen my words better, but the context made my meaning crystal clear.
No need to take my word for it.
This links to your post, followed by my reply.
thread.cfm?threadid=130131#2932799
It has nothing to do with this thread. You just made a personal attack without foundation because you were losing the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 07:06 PM

If you really believed I made an anti Irish statement, why wait untill now to mention it Jim?
Why not in that thread all those weeks ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 03:04 AM

I am going off line for a few days.
Jim tried to kill the debate with lying personal attacks on me.
I will return to it.
I suggested that the rage expressed here was just intolerance of a different culture.
It was said the parades are "provocative".
No trouble was provoked by any of the thousands of parades.
The only trouble started before any parade and Jim supplied evidence that it was not locals opposed to a march, but outsiders opposed to the peace process.
It was said that they wear funny hats.
Fair comment, but that is clearly a cultural thing.
Jim said that "abuse" is "hurled."
I do not believe that is a one way thing. In Ardoyne it was one way, against the protestants.
Jim says sometimes some people sing rude songs about the pope.
I agree that is not acceptable, and the organisers should enforce more discipline if true.
Is it the actual marchers who sing? You only see them walking silently on the videos. How are they heard over those very loud bands?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 03:18 AM

"If you really believed I made an anti Irish statement, why wait untill now to mention it Jim?"
I did Keith - weeks ago. Thanks to your persistant habit of not paying attention to what others write, you probably missed it - though I believe you did respond to it at the time, which means you don't even pay attention to what YOU write either, even though you post at least two at a time, three on this occasion.
"I will return to it."
Can't say I'm looking forward to your return, but I await an explanation of your statement with some interest
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 03:38 AM

But no comment on the actual debate then Jim?
Just more stuff about me.

Here is that link to the post in question.
Scroll down and look for any claim from you that I made an anti Irish statement. It would actually be significant on that thread.
thread.cfm?threadid=130131#2932799

Sorry, must go.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 05:11 PM

refresh.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,Keith A no cookie reset
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 03:55 AM

Even less trouble this year than last, thank goodness.
Fewer rioters and many of them early teens or even younger.

Here is how The Irish Times saw the most contentious parade in Belfast.


IT WAS party time yesterday for the unionist community in Belfast as thousands thronged the city centre streets to watch the annual Orange Order parade.

On what was very much a family day out for most of the crowd, people lined the main route from early morning in rows three and four deep, waving Union Jack and Ulster flags.

Countless stalls selling all sorts of memorabilia from hats and scarves to inflatable Disney character balloons added to the carnival atmosphere.

Two particularly popular items appeared to be children's batons and miniature marching drums, leading to more than one spectator being struck unawares by a flying baton, thrown from the hand of an overexcited youngster practising for his big moment in the parade.

In contrast to the bonfire night on Monday, during which Tricolours were burned in many parts of the city, the atmosphere yesterday morning was much more positive, one mostly of celebration of the Ulster unionist culture.

"It's the best day of our lives, something that we look forward to all year," said Angela Barr, who had secured a good roadside spot with her partner and two young sons.

Ms Barr and her family arrived an hour early as had thousands more who were unfolding deck chairs and unpacking lunches long before the march was due to pass.

It seemed odd to see so many, so early after bonfire night, traditionally a big social event in Northern Ireland that stretches into the early morning.

Motivation to leave home in good time was apparently easy to find, however, as the importance of getting the right spot along the parade route was quickly explained.

"We have been 50 years coming to the same spot," said a member of the Hanvey family from Newtownabbey, six miles outside of Belfast.

They described the Twelfth as their St Patrick's Day, a community day out that gives them a chance to celebrate their culture and history.

The parade itself maintained that family feel with men, women and children of all ages marching the seven-mile route while waving to neighbours in the crowd.

Aside from the loyal Orange lodges that always form the iconic basis of the march, the parade featured countless marching bands from Northern Ireland, Scotland and Canada.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0713/1224300655385.html?via=rel

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 05:05 AM

"Even less trouble this year than last, thank goodness."
And this is how the Irish Times saw it this morning:

"Rioters will be brought to justice, says PSNI
Police on high alert after 26 held during disturbances

POLICE HAVE warned that people involved in rioting at Ardoyne in north Belfast on the Twelfth night and in other parts of Northern Ireland over recent days will be tracked down and brought before the courts.
The Police Service of Northern Ireland remained on high alert last night to deal with any further outbreaks of nationalist violence after what a senior officer described as the "mindless" thuggery at Ardoyne on Tuesday night.
Twenty-six people were arrested during rioting in Ardoyne, in south Belfast, in Derry and in Castlederg, Co Tyrone, on Tuesday night. Eleven people were arrested in Derry, nine in Ardoyne - including a 12-year-old boy - five in the markets area of south Bel-fast and one in Castlederg.
Sixteen police officers were injured and 55 plastic bullets fired by police during the disturbances.
PSNI Assistant Chief Constable Alastair Finlay said most parts of Northern Ireland were peaceful over the Twelfth.
"Yet for these few streets we get headlines of violence, of people injured, of communities and relationships being broken and infrastructure and property damaged," he said.
About 200 rioters were involved in the trouble at Ardoyne. F inlay described them as "mindless thugs" and said there was evidence this disorder was orchestrated.
Mr Finlay said the police officer whose helmet was set on fire by a petrol bomb was back on duty later, demonstrating his bravery and the quality of the police riot gear.
An Orange Order feeder parade passed the Ardoyne shops on Tuesday night and several rioters who were involved in the disturbances there last year were jailed.
Police made several arrests after the disorder using film and forensic evidence.
Mr Finlay made clear a similar operation would now ensue. "There will be a follow-up operation like last year and people will be brought before the courts," he said at a police briefing yesterday morning.
While local nationalists continue to oppose the Orange Order parading past the Ardoyne shops on the Crumlin Road, the DUP MP for North Belfast Nigel Dodds said they must realise that the road was a "shared space and not just a nationalist road".
Local Sinn Fein Assembly member Gerry Kelly said the chief reason tensions were raised in the area each summer was entirely down to the continuing failure of the Orange Order to sit down and enter dialogue with its neighbours.
"There was no actual reason for the riot," local SDLP MLA Alban Maginness said, "beyond the fact that a small number of people wanted a riot, planned a riot and got a riot."

None of this covers the 4 days of rioting by adult masked and armed petrol bomb throwing UVF supporters three days prior to the marches (1 person wounded by gunfire).
These displays of sectarian aggression continue too be provocative flashpoints designed to maintain a split in the communities, and while they are allowed to take place in the aggressive way they do they will continue to cause trouble.
Party time my arse!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 05:13 AM

At a singing session in Clare last night, I sang "My Irish Molly" - the version whose tune was borrowed for "The Sash". As I finished, the fear a' tí (MC) remarked - "Can we start throwin' stones now?"! I replied - "Ah no - wait till the drummers get here." which in turn was followed by "Would a bodhrán player do?"!

Time to get a sense of perspective, Jim. It's also a bit disingenuous to quote Maginness without making it clear that he was talking of supporters of dissident IRA factions, rather than Loyalist marchers.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 05:24 AM

And Yes - lest there be any doubt - the pre-Twelfth Loyalist rioting was outrageous.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 05:26 AM

Hi Martin;
"supporters of dissident IRA factions, rather than Loyalist marchers."
Doesn't matter which side they come from; the earlier riots were UVF instigated - a plague on both their ****** houses.
But doesn't alter the fact that the sectarian and aggressive nature of the larger marches provide the flashpoint and, I believe are designed to do so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 05:33 AM

Yes it was Martin, and was said to be instigated by Loyalist paramiltaries.
Does anyone understanand why they did it?

Jim, the IT journalists were there and saw what they saw.
From today's IT.

"PSNI Assistant Chief Constable Alastair Finlay said most parts of Northern Ireland were peaceful over the Twelfth.

"Yet for these few streets we get headlines of violence, of people injured, of communities and relationships being broken and infrastructure and property damaged," he said.

About 200 rioters were involved in the trouble at Ardoyne. Mr Finlay described them as "mindless thugs" and said there was no evidence this disorder was orchestrated."

"While local nationalists continue to oppose the Orange Order parading past the Ardoyne shops on the Crumlin Road, the DUP MP for North Belfast Nigel Dodds said they must realise that the road was a "shared space and not just a nationalist road".

Local Sinn Féin Assembly member Gerry Kelly said the chief reason tensions were raised in the area each summer was entirely down to the continuing failure of the Orange Order to sit down and enter dialogue with its neighbours.

"There was no actual reason for the riot," local SDLP MLA Alban Maginness said, "beyond the fact that a small number of people wanted a riot, planned a riot and got a riot." "

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 05:39 AM

Jim, The Irish Times piece stands against your claim, "the fact that the sectarian and aggressive nature of the larger marches"

From BBC NI news site.

Chief Insp Burrows said the police would be using video footage to identify those involved in the trouble.

"The parade went very well, the return parade went very well. The violence that we saw was less than we saw in Belfast, less than we have seen in years gone by but it is still unacceptable that people are throwing petrol bombs at police, damaging their own communities and hijacking vehicles.

"I'm pleased that we made 12 arrests, I'm pleased that we got community co-operation and we have plenty of CCTV evidence

Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness said the rioters should think of the consequences of their actions.

Mr Robinson said: "As a government we are working together to ensure that Northern Ireland prospers and grows in strength.

"It is saddening to see Ulster in the international news for all the wrong reasons.

"Those involved in Tuesday night's violence and rioting provide nothing to society. Those manipulating the violence will not win."

Mr McGuinness said: "I visited Ardoyne on Monday and met with local people, community and church leaders.

"They made it very clear to me that they did not want to see any violence in their community over the Twelfth parade.

"It is disappointing that a small number of people chose to ignore their demand and instead went about attacking the police and damaging the local community."

Police have said children as young as 10 were involved in rioting in Londonderry on Tuesday night.

Twelve people, including one woman, were arrested after petrol bombs and bricks were thrown at police.

Trouble broke out in the Bogside and Fahan Street areas, in Gobnascale and Ardmore in the Waterside, and in Strabane and Castlederg.

A 14-year old was among those arrested on suspicion of riotous behaviour.

A crate of petrol bombs was recovered in Fahan Street.

Chief Inspector, Jon Burrows, said children were involved in the rioting.

"I saw some very, very young children in the Bogside throwing stones at police. Children under 10," he said.

"That was running towards midnight. Still children under 10 years of age throwing stones at police and I have to say some adults were present and not intervening. That's very, very sad."

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 05:43 AM

Jim
a plague on both their ****** houses.

Agreed!

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,keith.
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 05:58 AM

Agreed likewise.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 07:43 AM

"Jim, the IT journalists were there and saw what they saw."
The 12th disturbances were reported to have been caused by Nationalists; the pre-march riots were by UVF members. Attempting to pin the responsibilty on one side or the other puts whoever does so in that particular camp.
The disturbances are a direct result of the aggressive nature of the marches.
Last year, when permission was refused to march in certain areas, the organisers made a point of ending the official proceedings and marching back through flashpoint areas, thus provoking violence.
It has always been recognised that the vast majority of the marches are peaceful and harmless, but as the Sinn Fein politician, Gerry Kelly pointed our, it is the organisers of the larger ones in Belfast and Derry that need to cop on to themselves - until they do there will be continuing violence.
All of which makes an utter farce of your statement that there was;
"Even less trouble this year than last, thank goodness."
I suggest you read your own 'unnapproachable expert' from the BBC quote.
The violence of these marches is again escalating, provoked by both sides, and the disturbances throughout the rest of the year is again on the rise.
Acting as an apologist for either side only adds fuel to the flames.
And please don't attempt (again) to pin the blame on children, as you did last time; children certainly become involved but it an adult problem (if you can call the cretins who create the conditions, or act as apologists for these religious war-dances "adults") and blaming it on children is spineless and irresponsible.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: mg
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 11:23 AM

The thugs should have an infinite number of video cameras trained on them from every angle so at least you can identifiy them after. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 11:39 AM

I am not "an apologist" for any of them.
The number of children rioting was widely reported, and clear in the pictures.
It is not me trying to "pin the blame on children."

I can not find your BBC "quote" Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 01:03 PM

"I am not "an apologist""
Yes you are; the descriptions you have offered for these thuggish marches included family days out and something like annual outings - can't be bothered looking it up, but will do if you persist in refusing to take responsibility for your suggestion.
Your claim that last years riots were the fault of children was pretty well as despicable as your suggestion that all British Pakistanis were cultural perverts.
I have no intention of following your twisted justification of these bloodfests and your dishonest style of debate - you've more than proved that there really is no point.
We really do have nothing to say to each other.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 01:47 PM

Jim,
"the descriptions you have offered for these thuggish marches included family days out and something like annual outings"

That was in The Irish Times yesterday Jim.
Do you challenge their account?

This contains two lies Jim, "Your claim that last years riots were the fault of children was pretty well as despicable as your suggestion that all British Pakistanis were cultural perverts."

I did not say any riot was the fault of any children, and never suggested "all British Pakistanis were cultural perverts"

Why lie about me Jim?

And your BBC "quote."
You made it up Jim.

We are just discussing the events of the day.
Why do you have to be like this Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 02:08 PM

Some nice pictures of the "thuggish bloodfest" here.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/twelfth/in-pictures-and-video-the-twelfth-parades-2010-14873706.html

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 03:03 PM

"The "rioters" in Belfast turned out to be bored school children and a few activists bussed in to create trouble."
Yours I believe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 03:50 PM

It was true that many of the rioters were children, but they were not to blame for it, and nor did I blame them.
You made that up.

Did you enjoy the "bloodfest" pictures?
A lot of children in the parades, but not instigated by them do you think?
Lots of ice cream too, but no blood.

You are not capable of rational expression on this subject, are you Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 09:34 PM

For centuries these stupid marches have set back any hope of building goodwill. King Jimmy and King Billy are both dead and buried and long may both the bastards moulder. 1690 was 321 years ago for Gods sake! Ban the marches and find a consensus for unifying this beautiful island!

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 02:17 AM

"You made that up."
And there you have the perfect reason why it is a total waste of time spending any time on what you have to say.
You describe the rioters as children, your own statement is placed before you - "The "rioters" in Belfast turned out to be bored school children and a few activists bussed in to create trouble" and you describe it as a lie.
You seem to be incapable of stringing two sentences togather without one of them being a lie, or a distortion, or a claim to have been said by somebody else.
Once again - you said it, it was your statement, it was youyr misrepresentation.
I suggest you take your lies, your racism, your sectarian marches and your union flag and shove them where they will do the least damege.
Juimn Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,keith.
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 03:26 AM

Jim, this was your statement that I described as a lie.
"Your claim that last years riots were the fault of children"

I never did claim such a ludicrous thing.
Certainly many of the rioters were kids last year and this.
IT agreed.
Your statement was a lie told to discredit me.

Sandy,
Look at some of the hundred plus pictures in the Belfast Telegraph link.
Imagine yourself in jackboots telling all those happy families to go home at once.
Remember banning or just re-routing one parade led to years of violent conflict.
Why not just let them enjoy their one day of fun?

Then look at the pictures and ask why it makes people like Jim so angry.
It can not be what they are doing.
Just families having fun.
It is because of who they are, not what they do, that makes Jim lash out so irrationally.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 05:10 AM

You claimed that "The "rioters" in Belfast turned out to be bored school children and a few activists bussed in to create trouble" YOUR OWN WORDS ; in the context of your claim that the trouble on these marches was a thing of the past. Nothing unequivocal about that - the chidren were the rioters, according to your own words.
Now you are claiming to be misrepresented just as you did when you said you believed that Pakistani Muslims were all culturally implanted with a tendency to paedophelia - you lied then when you were confronted with your own words, you are lying now.
If you can't stand by your own postings why do you take part in these discussions?
"Then look at the pictures"
You are totally and deliberately ignoring the four days of serious rioting that took place as a run-up to the marches, a direct consequence of the nature of these sectarian "days out" (as you described them).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 05:21 AM

The rioters did turn out to include large numbers of children.

No-one has ever said that "the riots were the fault of children."
You made that up hoping to discredit me.

Likewise your outrageous lie that I believe, "Pakistani Muslims were all culturally implanted with a tendency to paedophilia "

You kept telling that grotesque lie in a previous thread.
I even listed my every use of words beginning "paed" to prove you were lying.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,keith.
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 06:15 AM

I reopened this thread with good news.
Less trouble around the 12th this year.

As a result I find myself the victim of personal accusations.

Perhaps Jim, we misunderstood each other.
You thought I had blamed children.
I am making it clear now that I did not and do not, so that is cleared up.

Likewise the Pakistani accusation.
I did not and do not believe such a ludicrous thing.

Now, would you care to discuss issues related to the parades, and not my imagined beliefs?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 06:18 AM

"No-one has ever said that "the riots were the fault of children."
Yes you did - you used the children to prove that the trouble was all over and it was only they who were rioting - you can't have it both ways.
Your "cultural implant" statement is long established and proven as a lie - you even pass the responsibility on to others claiming you were only reporting it.
Why do you bother with these debates - an ego trip maybe?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 06:27 AM

Jim,
"you used the children to prove that the trouble was all over and it was only they who were rioting "

Er, it never was only they who were rioting.
That is just nonsense.
I am telling you that I did not and do not blame the children, so we can move on.

Likewise the Pakistani nonsense.
It would be wrong and stupid for anyone to believe that.
I certainly do not, so we can move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 07:58 AM

Keith
If you can't stand by your own words, please piss off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 08:12 AM

I do stand by my words.
I am telling you that I did not and do not blame the children.

Also, it would be wrong and stupid for anyone to believe that nonsense about Pakistanis.
I certainly have never said such a ludicrous thing and never would, so can we can just discuss the parades and not me?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 09:58 AM

Mark Eastern on the BBC site yesterday.

So should we be depressed about the annual ritual rioting in Ardoyne? Or heartened that the number of police officers injured was fewer than last year, and the disorder shorter in duration?

The police say 16 officers were hurt on Tuesday, compared to 55 in 2010. A republican source told me the rioting "wasn't a patch on last year".

In contrast to last year, nationalists did not block the Crumlin Road and the Orange parade itself passed by without trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 12:51 PM

I think I saw a picture on you tube of a Mariachi band dressed in Orange..that is what they need..not restrictions but more people enjoying themselves and turning it into a more generic, family holiday with orange balloons and orange umbrellas etc. The origins will quickly fade away (or maybe not since we are talking about Ireland) when groups of Poles, Nigerians, Lithuanians put on their orange garb and join them in a fun day which most of what I have seen is a bunch of older men in bowler hats marching with their grandsons. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 12 - 06:45 AM

So far so good.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: cujimmy
Date: 12 Jul 12 - 07:42 AM

How vile is this https://twitter.com/#!/search/bloody%20sunday/slideshow/photos?url=https%3A%2F%2Fp.twimg.com%2FAxeHZ4wCEAA8r-9.jpg a lot of good things have happened in recent years and recently The Queen was was given a great welcome wherever she went while visiting Ireland, representatives from the Orange Order spoke in the Irish parliament, Martin McGuinness met the Queen and people have tried to make the parades more like the ST Paddy day celebrations than super macist parades. But there is still a lot of ignorance, intransigence and intolerence to overcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: cujimmy
Date: 12 Jul 12 - 08:30 AM

It seems that this is innacurate thank goodness http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/news/local/rumours-of-fountain-mockery-of-bloody-sunday-dead-untrue-1-4044234#.T_7AmZFBOrc.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Stu
Date: 12 Jul 12 - 09:44 AM

Damn, I thought this was one of oul McKittery's threads. No such luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: framus
Date: 12 Jul 12 - 07:09 PM

Thanks, cujimmy, for the repudiation. Hope it gets the circulation it deserves. It's indeed fortunate that nobody cares any more about poor oul Lundy on 18th Dec. Haven't been there for years, but my entire family, from my parents back, are Fountain folk.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 07:25 AM

From Irish Times.

Virtually the sole focus for potential trouble during the Twelfth marches was on Ardoyne, as has been the case in recent years. But overall the Twelfth of July concluded peacefully and successfully with thousands of Orangemen, hundreds of bands, and thousands more supporters participating in 18 main parades throughout Northern Ireland.

Members of the Crumlin and Ardoyne Residents Association (CARA), which is supported by Sinn Féin, staged a peaceful protest along the Crumlin Road as the Orangemen paraded by.

The Ligoniel Orangemen were bussed from the field – where Orange marchers gathered after the outward part of the main Belfast parade – to begin their return route on the Woodvale Road a short distance from Ardoyne, so that they would meet the 4pm deadline.

The parade comprised just 15 Orangemen, who were flanked by PSNI officers in riot gear and carrying shields. Normally dozens of Orangemen would parade. It took just five minutes for the contentious element of the march to be concluded. When they passed by the flashpoint the lodge members were greeted by hundreds of cheering loyalists farther up the Crumlin Road.

The decision by the north Belfast lodges to observe the Parades Commission 4pm return deadline in turn put pressure on GARC, viewed as sympathetic to dissident republicans, to ensure that its demonstration scheduled for between 5.30-6.30 pm was peaceful.

The concern around this parade was exacerbated by the fact that loyalist residents from Twaddell Avenue and Woodvale Road were staging a protest against the GARC demonstration.

At around 6.20 pm about 700 nationalists marched on to the Crumlin Road. When they came alongside the loyalist protesters there was an exchange of missiles between the two groups.

For a brief period it appeared that a full scale riot would erupt but police managed to push the republican marchers into Brompton Park. Republican marshals also assisted in getting the republicans off the Crumlin Road.

About 20 nationalists continued to fire missiles at police lines from Brompton Park last night.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 07:49 PM

Logic is religion's worst enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 05:01 AM

Yesterday, the biggest parade for decades passed off in Belfast without incident.
Tolerance and compromise on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 03:40 PM

Sorry Keith, it didn't. The Parades Commission are looking at an incident that occurred outside St, Matthews on the Newtownards Road. Bands played "The Sash" outside it instead of hymns.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19776951

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 04:40 PM

So the worst incident was that one band played a prohibited tune, but no-one got a single scratch.
That is still a good news story.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: gnu
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 07:08 PM

Yes, it certainly does show tolerance on one side. Too bad is wasn't on both sides. That's the goal, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 03:03 AM

Not forgetting the events of four weeks earlier, of course
Jim Carroll

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/04/belfast-rioters-police-officers
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0903/breaking7.htmlhttp://www.gua

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 03:25 AM

Thirty thousand people out parading, and no problems.
If there is trouble blame the Unionists, if not praise the Nationalists.
No sectarianism here then.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 03:53 AM

I note it was Keith who opened this old thread (old wound)in the hope of a response from someone who supports Irish nationalism.

There were two Irish guys on this site a few years ago who Keith deliberately wind up on a daily basis,unfortunately,both left the forum because of him, sadly one has since died.

Then in 2009, Keith focused on patriotism,he invited some unsavory individuals here to support his cause, they took their time leaving and left a legacy we will never forget.

I looked this Ulster Covenant event up on the BBC, I see now why Keith sang their praises.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19777479

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 05:30 AM

No, I just thought it a good news story.
Good news about peace in NI is bad news for some folks I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 05:55 AM

Keith, what do you think of the comment by a member of the Orange Order about the presence of your friend at the event, read it in the link provided. "DUP councillor and Orangeman, Christopher Stalford, said the "values the BNP represent are the antithesis of unionist values".

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 06:26 AM

I deplore it Martin.
Please do not mention it on Mudcat, it attracts them.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 08:22 AM

Keith, there is a story on the BBC today about a member of the Orange Order who walked over and urinated against a catholic church last Saturday. So with the Orange Order and the DUP openly welcoming Nick to the event and an Orange man urinating up a church, are you still willing to say it was a great event and state your support ?

Full story here on BBC


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19784052

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 08:26 AM

I deplore that too Martin.
Do you not think it a breakthrough that there was so little trouble?
Is it not a good news story?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 08:59 AM

Keith, I find the playing of sectarian songs outside a place of worship, urinating against a catholic church by someone belonging to an organization openly opposed to the very existence of Catholics, and the attendance and welcoming of the leader of an openly racist party at this event nothing to celebrate. No I do not find this a good story, it is a very depressing one.

The Orange Order and it's followers refuse to meet a British government appointed body set up to oversee parades. How are they loyal to the British government of our Queen ?

Keith, do you accept the Orange Order is sectarian ?

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 09:08 AM

Of course it is.

Thirty-thousand people.
A few got out of line, and shame on them.
It is still a good news story.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 09:25 AM

Let us both hope for peace in this province and that the dark days are over.
I wish you well.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 09:30 AM

Thanks Martin, I wish you the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade)
From: Stu
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 09:30 AM

This is crap compared to Issac's threads.