When will Mudcat clean up its act?

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 08:23 AM

Perhaps I didn't hit submit so I'll say again to Sean Mc, if you don't like it here don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:15 AM

I always thought PG was Pretty Good.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:03 AM

"We were only having a laugh, and a giggle in a bubbly bath, when in walked her mother and her big brother."

Of course in a traditional song, it would have been her seven brothers who walked in and argued amongst themselves for a bit until one of them ran him through.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:00 AM

A bit like going to a folk club and someone starts singing D-I-V-O-R-C-E

:-)

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 05:25 AM

Rafflesbear: I wonder if there is an Atlantic divide on this. I write from east of the pond and PERSONALLY would prefer that all subject titles were 'clean'

for some reason I find it more distracting in the context of Mudcat than I do when watching a film such as Die Hard which I enjoy
_____________

No Atlantic divide here...I thought Joe O's long post above summed it up perfectly, and I'm east of the pond too.

I use a climbing site where *almost* anything goes, except that it auto-edits words from a "no-no" list, leading to "c**kerell", "Sc**thorpe, "Wast**ter" etc. People just get around it by typing "tw@" or "fcuk" or eliding words to come up with something like "twunt" which now seems to be the insult of choice on that site. Debate there is very robust, and I've never understood why they get so prissy about "swear" words.

Another site I use is so "fluffy" that the minute anyone disagrees with someone else on a thread, the affected person is likely to flounce off or break down into "virtual tears". That one has the most rigorous word-censorship I've ever seen anywhere. Debate there is boring and sterile and everyone tiptoes around issues for fear of giving offence.

I like this site...the balance is just right, AFAIC. I find the mechanics of using it a bit frustrating at times, but understand now why it is as it is, and have adapted accordingly.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: LadyJean
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 01:27 AM

My mother hid her John Jacob Niles records, when we were younger. She didn't think her growing daughters should listen to the likes of "Little Mattie Groves".
Then, one day, on the Smothers Brothers" show, Donovan sang, "We were only having a laugh, and a giggle in a bubbly bath, when in walked her mother and her big brother."

Mom's John Jacob Niles records came out of hiding, as did her volume of Restoration Comedies, knowing that we would see worse on television.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Brian May
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 01:11 AM

What a refreshing thread.

Now I KNOW why I visit one of the last bastions of free thought and expression, even if it DOES contain the 'f' word now and again.

Err . . . that's life . . . isn't it?

Have fun,

Brian

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:15 PM

Joe, thanks for mentioning the "clean" sites at 2:03 PM. One was new to me, and exploring around, I found folk songs such as "William Grismond" and "Sweet Joan" which have lyrics as insinuating and potentially bawdy as any one may find.
You're always on top, in my book.

Sheila

Subject: Lyr Add: Sideways, the Kipper Family
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:14 PM

The Kippers, from In the Family Way

We Did It Sideways

And now - the end is nigh,
Our business soon - will be completed,
But e'er - we say good-bye,
We've this to add - so please stay seated.
Now we - have hunted crabs,
Both from the shore - and in the tide ways,
But more, much more than that,
We did it side-ways.

What is a crab - what have it got,
If not eight legs - then it is not.
What e'er its part - in the creation,
Still that is not - a true crustation.
The way to tell - is like ourselves,
They do it side-ways.

Cuz yes - I've had a few,
But then again - too few to mention,
They taste - of nought at all,
And always give - us indigestion.
So when - we near King's Lynn,
Where they are served - in funny fried ways,
We snort - please pass the port,
And do it side-ways.

Once et a meal - they give us trout,
We ate it up - and spat it out,
And though they stayed - and called us selfish,
We would not eat - what is not shellfish,
We couldn't stop - we had to hop,
But did it side-ways.

They say - a man must do,
What he must do - that's why we did it.
We always - caught the crabs,
We're proud to say - we never hid it.
We meet - young ladies sweet,
Who try to tempt - us in untried ways,
But always - love our wives,
And do it side-ways.

And now - the end have come.
spoken: And none too soon in my humble opinion

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:13 PM

My post got scissored. It should have read "I was recently slandered by a guest, an accusation was made which was a complete pack of lies,the person got away with it because they were anonymous, this could not have happened if the site was members only."

Bit rich, actually, Dick, considering that you are prone, at least on one site we both know well, to changing your user name extremely frequently and even resorting to the name "anon" at one time. Either use your real name (like me) or stop complaining. One or the other.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Tootler
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:05 PM

...fuck me sideways!

Interesting........hmmm

The mind boggles

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:57 PM

Dunbar, 1505- Poems, lxxv, Be his feiris he wald haue fukkit.

Rochester, 1680- Poems on Several Occasions, Much wine had passed with grave discourse, Of who Fucks who, and who does worse.

A. Robertson, 1750- Poems, But she gave proof that she could fuck.

Joyce, 1922- Ulysses, His wife is fucked yes and damn well fucked too.

OED.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:37 PM

Jeri: "This is one thing that really bugs me: how some people can get so offended at just reading the word "fuck", but can easily call other human beings "morons".

Jeri, Perhaps it comes easy for someone, who is not offended about thinking about fucking morons!... not knowing, what either is!

GfS: "Ok..Down GfS... Get back in your cage!"....GfS: "OK"

(Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
I'm a schizophrenic,
And so am I!)

Wink,
GfS

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:31 PM

well fuck me sideways!
i have read some weird threads on here, but this is daft, and you lot are daft for reading and posting to it!
me? i am above such fucking stupidity.

hope all is well with everyone?
take care
jade x x x x

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,Barrt
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:30 PM

Get real, man...

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:19 PM

This is one thing that really bugs me: how some people can get so offended at just reading the word "fuck", but can easily call other human beings "morons".

I think the latter is far more evil than the former. I think name calling and ridicule ere usually a bottom-of-the-barrel, desperate tactics, no matter who they're aimed at.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:15 PM

Well I might as well weigh in too...being an outspoken sort..sometimes.
I find it rather umm, GREAT that there is a website, in which one can express their angst virtually any way they want..within reason!(God only knows, I've pushed the envelope a few times).

As a person who composes(me), the dynamics of emotions, I find rather useful, and stimulating...even with the posters I have had 'tiffs' with. Frankly, if 'The Mudcat Forum' was to 'clean up its act', perhaps, instead of posters posting, we would just have impostors posing and posturing !!!!
I surely hope, as a musician, you aren't as squeamish about the places you MIGHT play, or the audiences that MIGHT listen. Perhaps they should go through a 'mind cleansing' before you'd let them into the room! Get real, and get over it!
.......oh, and quit being a phony!!
I best conclude this, before I get started, and unleash on ya'..(though it may well be entertaining)

Most Sincerely,
GfS

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:14 PM

We rightly now stigmatise the antics of the Rev Dr Bowdler. The OP is the same. You cannot discuss "folk" if you are to be limited in the words that may be discussed. It follows from the 1954 definition.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,Llizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:10 PM

Bruce, you're gonna love this! ;0)

Here you go, Sean..the new way to destress:
The Way of 'Fuck It' - Honest, it's a real site..and..I have the BOOK! :0)


And here's the Youtube version...Sean, you so need to sign up for this.. ;0)

You see, Sean...ALL you need to do is say "Fuck it!" every time you see the 'F' word and all the stress drains out of you.

Over here in Torquay the air is filled with Fucks for all sorts of different reasons! It's used as a greeting, as a warning, as an OUCH!, as an OOH!, as a MY word but she's a stunner!, as Goodbye, as calling to a friend...

Yes, Torquay is the ultimate fucking town...and at night they even put the word to the actual Oxford English Dictionary descriptional usage, down on the harbour side...

Ah yes, The fucking English Riviera ain't wot it used 2 B


LOL

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Mooh
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:04 PM

Amos, thanks. Been east (mostly NS) for a couple of weeks after being busier than I want to be for months.

Maybe all roads lead to Mudcat, regardless of cuss words.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:01 PM

"What a bunch of morons"

Well! How Pisspot Rude is that???????

Nope, got it wrong Sean..

We're a bunch of fucking morons on Mudcat...and proud to be so, because it's one of the last places where free thought rules and grown ups are allowed to be exactly that...Those that moan about swearing usually end up in turnip fields, arse end downwards, on here, so be careful! ;0)

I noticed you sign in as 'Sean Mc', so I guess you're a little embarrassed by the remainder of your name..so..er...would you be one of the McFucks, at all? It's just that I've heard they're bloody brilliant at expl*t**g all over the place...so I got to thinking that maybe you're just fuck*** wind*** everyone up a little....

;0)

The BBC Radio 2 F&A site is an excellent site for no swear words..Hell, you can't even write about c*c*erels on there! Nor go c*c*adoodledooooooo!

I'd suggest you try it..and it's filled with Moaning Minnies! Trust me, you'll fuckin' LOVE it!

:0)

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:54 PM

Hey, Mooh!! Long time no hear!! Welcome back.

Methinks the moronism doth show loud in accusation...

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Mooh
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:48 PM

WTF?

I liked George Carlin's view that fuck is the beginning of life (though I'm not RC or PC). Seems that we all started that way anyway.

"I guess I will just have to exercise my option by not coming back." OP said.

That's like leaving town because one person or group swears. This is a community, and though there are general values (for lack of a better term or more imagination on my part), that's not what binds us together.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:45 PM

Sean Mc (lower case c) brilliantly riposted with this intellectual gem:

What a bunch of morons

Sean, thank you for raising the tone of MC (capital C)!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:34 PM

Many people know that I am a Christian... and as such I do not like to hear or see expletives in use... however.... if I open a thread, I can always close it again if I don't like the content the same as I can ignore things on the street. We all have choices.. If you choose to be here then you may encounter 'all manner of things' which you don't like.. TOUGH... the site wasn't designed with anyone in particular in mind other than perhaps people who appreciate/write/perform..... Folk music........ If you can't stand the heat. get out of the kitchen I say!

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:29 PM

Come on! This has got to be a send up!

---

I love you people!
OP, fuck off! And that's from a saintly English teacher. (Retired I should add). Some of my ex-pupils are on here.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:25 PM

A TV is a guy who wears dresses and.....never mind

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:40 PM

Wot`s a TV.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:37 PM

"OP" is bog standard internetwebspeak. If people can't speak web, they should log out and watch TV.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:24 PM

``Anyone know of a folk website where decency is observed?``

Yeah, but you`ve been so fuckin` rude I ain`t gonna tell ya. Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:22 PM

So, Sean, is "What a bunch of morons" all you have to say in response? How do you respond to my contention that bawdy songs are some of the few surviving pure examples of the folk process?
I realize that most of the early collectors censored out the bawdiness in songs they collected (most notably in sea songs), but do you truly think that was a good thing?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:20 PM

BS: 'I'm forever blowing bubbles...'

I was SHOCKED to see the above as a thread title. ABsoLUTELY SHOCKED!

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Brian May
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:16 PM

Just another quick thought . . .

Is it the WORDS we don't like, or the meaning??

I suggest you get a good dictionary and look up what 'NICE' actually means (original meaning), then look up 'SOPHISTICATED'.

Still want to complain?

At least these 'bad' words are honest and up-front.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Sean Mc
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:13 PM

What a bunch of morons

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:12 PM

I wonder if there is an Atlantic divide on this. I write from east of the pond and PERSONALLY would prefer that all subject titles were 'clean'

for some reason I find it more distracting in the context of Mudcat than I do when watching a film such as Die Hard which I enjoy

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:12 PM

What a totally fucking stupid thread.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Brian May
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:06 PM

Bye then Sean.

Exercise your democratic right to leave.

I find it quite refreshing that people can actually speak their mind without the PC thought police interfering.

There are limits, but there are far worse things in this life than a few swearwords. Then we get the sanctimonious 'What about kids visiting the site'?

What about them? They say and hear far worse at school . . .

So bye bye Sean, have fun - and when you find this Shangri La, just pop back and leave us the URL. xxx (they're kisses, not swearwords :o)

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:54 PM

Hmmmm. Michael, you present a challenge. You can put PG13 in the Filter and set the age back to get our "PG13" threads, but I'm not sure I can make a link for you. Try this:

Search for "PG13" threads

Like I say, the PG13 tag makes me cringe, but it does serve a purpose. If you are viewing Mudcat from your employer's computer, and your employer's computer won't let you go to sites with naughty words, and it's a day when a naughty word is active on the Forum Menu, there IS a way to set the Mudcat Forum Menu to filter out all threads with the "PG13" tag.
But I forget how to do it. You can filter out anything once you get to the Forum Menu, but how you get to the Forum Menu to filter out naughty words in the first place if there's a naughty word showing and the boss's computer won't let you at it? Not much help, am I?

Oh...."PG13" is the U.S. designator for movies that are not suitable for children under the age of 13, so those films require Parental Guidance. It was the best tag we could come up with at the time, although I know it isn't readily understood outside the US.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:53 PM

OED allows refutal. What's wrong with refudiate? The language is reft if word coinage is subject to stintage.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: topical tom
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:52 PM

Discourage the use of euphemisms and encourage the use of the true words, be they offensive to some or not. You made a very good argument, Joe.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:51 PM

LOLOLOL! I wanna be offended about something too! Whatever shall I choose? Such a lot of choices.....Burkas, Jews, Hamas, sexuality, politics...













Oh hell, I can't be bothered. Being offended takes energy.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,Cool Beans at a foreign computer
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:41 PM

Well put, Joe Offer!

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:40 PM

Well fucking hell Joe, I hope when you go to church, they wash your mouth out.

You have said more offensive swear words in your last post than I dare say in my family, and I don't go to church.

I fucking agree with Sean MC. You shouldn't allow fucking titles to have such offensive words in.

There are children who come on this site. Have you no f****** concern for them.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:35 PM

PG 13 is a movie classification in North America. It means Parental Guidance required (or suggested) for children 13 or under. Today that means you can kill fifty people in the first ten minutes, yell lots and say stuff like shit, etc. The censors worry mostly about nudity--or so it seems to me.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:28 PM

The old Harvest Home forum had an automatic expletive generator which would turn Scunthorpe into S****horpe even as you typed it! All a bit high-tech for mudcat methinks...

Chortle! Reminds me of a photo I once saw of an event held at Scunthorpe which had "Scunthorpe" in large letters at the back of the stage. Unfortunately, only part of the word was visible above the performer in the photo...

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:28 PM

Joe ~ Could you please explain PG13, which I have not come across before in a year on the site.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:11 PM

Certainly, Ebbie. I submit "Grundied and Comstocked" in its place.

I see no reason to use crude abusive language when a more ornate form will serve.

A

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:11 PM

Hear Hear

Don

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:03 PM

Well, I'm going to remove the offending apostrophe from my post here; because if I don't want it in my post, I don't have to have it. For that matter, I'm going to remove the apostrophe from the thread title - Mudcatters have control of their own posts, but Mudcat retains rights over thread titles.

I suppose I cringe a bit when I see the word "Fuck" on the Forum Menu - but I think it ought to be there if we are talking about a song with "fuck" in the song title. Similarly, I was offended by those who insisted on removing the word "Nigger" from threads discussing the well-known song, "Run Nigger Run." Still, I breathe a sigh of relief when nobody has posted to the thread for 24 hours and it drops off the Forum Menu.

I am far more offended myself when I see prudish euphemisms like F***
and N****
I also have to say that I really hate the "PG13" tag that has been added to some thread titles, even though I'm the one who suggested adding the PG13 to appease complaints.
I also don't like abbreviations that are not immediately understandable, like "OP."

The Original Poster says that "these songs have nothing to do with the folk tradition." By that, I think he means that the songs are not very old. But age is not the only thing that determines whether a song is a folk song; and sometimes songs enter the folk process at a very early age. I contend that bawdy songs are almost the only true, living folk songs that are alive and healthy today - they come from the people, and are changed by the people as time and conditions move along. In addition, such songs are able to escape the process of commercialization that has almost completely destroyed the folk process. I think it's highly unlikely that anyone is going to try to slap a copyright on "Fuck You Jane Fonda" or "Eat, Bite, Fuck, Suck."

Oh, I suppose people could also complain about our allowing threads like Barney and the many Chinaman song threads to continue - but these threads have gone on for years and have dozens of song variations posted to them. Distasteful or not, these songs are excellent examples of the folk process.

Most people who know me are aware that I go to church three to five times a week and that "fuck" is not an ordinary part of my vocabulary - but I refuse to replace the word with euphemisms when I need to use it. "Naughty words" do make me cringe a bit, but I am far more offended by euphemisms.

So, when you complain about the offensiveness of this or that, remember that other people are just as vehemently opposed to euphemisms. The solution? Feel free to control your own use of language, and give other people the freedom to control theirs.

Somebody above made a good point: if you euphemize the titles of songs, how are people going to be able to search for them? Do we need to have some sort of standardization of euphemisms, and then a key to understanding the Official Mudcat Euphemization Code?

If you don't like bawdy lyrics, I think you'll find that most of the lyrics are clean at:

• http://ingeb.org/
• http://contemplator.com/
• http://mysongbook.de/
• http://www.kididdles.com/.

If you really think that Mudcat needs to censor out bad language, I suggest you discuss the matter with Mudcat's owner, Max Spiegel, [e-mail]

Free, unrestricted, uncensored posting of lyrics has been our policy since Mudcat began on October 1, 1996, and it is one of our basic operating principles. It has also been the policy of the Digital Tradition Folk Song Database since it was established in 1988. Only Max Spiegel can change this policy for Mudcat, and only Dick Greenhaus can change the Digital Tradition policy.

-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up it's act?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:20 PM

So, where is Sean Mc in reply?

D