BS: Language Pet Peeves

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 May 20 - 11:42 AM

I like you too!

Yeah, it was the asymmetry (if you will) of adjective adjective noun, even though all could be "felt" ...

But I wasn't sure if there were an actual grammatical *rule* about it.

So, thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Charmion
Date: 21 May 20 - 11:36 AM

Yes, Mrrzy, there is something actually wrong with it.

I will now dispense a crumb of editorial information. I normally charge for this service, but I like you.

Most highly literate readers are bothered by lists in which one of the things is not like the others. The person who wrote "It is normal to feel lost, depressed and hatred" chose those three words because s/he thought, "These are all things people feel". But "lost" and "depressed" are adjectives, and "hatred" is a noun, and that is the source of your bug.

To avoid irking the readership, that sentence should run, "It is normal to feel loss, depression and hatred after ...", or "It is normal to hate, and to feel lost and depressed, after ..."

This bug can be a feature in the hands of a master:

"She lowered her standards by raising her glass,
Her courage, her eyes, and his hopes."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 21 May 20 - 11:33 AM

Actually, I'm sure it is "wrong", but I lack the grammatical sophistication to explain why beyond what I said in my previous post.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 21 May 20 - 11:29 AM

Not sure it's "wrong", but it's exceedingly awkward. The weakness is that "lost" and "depressed" are adjectives, while "hatred" is a noun, so the construction is inconsistent; however, all three words work with the verb "feel", so I would not be confident calling it "wrong".

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 May 20 - 10:53 AM

If she liked motorboats she could also have a wake.

Um, read today in an advice column: ...it is normal to feel lost, depressed and hatred after...

The "lost, depressed and hatred" bugs me. Is there actually anything wrong with it?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 20 - 09:36 AM

In today's Bude and Stratton Post: "The funeral for the late Lucy Williams was held on February 6th..."

Nice to know she was definitely dead...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:55 PM

"Rolling gun battle". Like gunman, this is a journalist expression which gives false dignity to abhorrent behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 20 May 20 - 12:09 PM

Might as well give up on prepositions now, and be right with the times. I advise you to start deliberately using the wrong prepositions, just to get used to it. Anyway: I'm getting bored of this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 May 20 - 11:53 AM

Today a headline said Trump has a real shot of winning.

No, he may have good odds of winning, but he has a shot AT winning.

And barf, but that's not a language peeve.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 20 May 20 - 05:09 AM

The one that really makes me cringe, is when paying by credit / debit card, being asked to enter my "PIN number".

Does this refer to my "Personal Identification Number Number"?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: JennieG
Date: 20 May 20 - 03:29 AM

A pronunciation which has been creeping for some time now, used by female TV news presenters, is adding an extra syllable to words such as 'three' and 'thread' - so they become 'the-ree' and 'the-read'. Perhaps it's done for emphasis, or perhaps it's because they never learned the correct pronunciation in the first place. (I am inclined to believe the latter)

Interestingly, the blokes don't do it. It seems to be girl thing.

Either way, it gives me a strong does of the irrits.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: BobL
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:47 AM

Except, Leeneia, the word "man" has at least two different meanings: (1) the animal species homo sapiens or a member thereof, man as opposed to beast, and (2) an adult male human, man as opposed to woman or child. OED lists about a dozen more I believe. Confusion arises because one definition includes the other. Some of us primary school kids found the idea of (say) a lady chairman a bit bewildering, but we got used to the idea.

So "gunman" is 1st meaning - inclusive - because we don't have gunwomen. But we do have gun dogs and, once upon a time, had gun mules.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 20 May 20 - 12:19 AM

I hate the word 'gunman.' I even wrote to the customer liason at my paper about it. For one thing, when a word comes in only one sex (because we never speak of gunwomen), there is probably something wrong with the word. The only exceptions are obviously sex-linked things such as breastfeeding or donating sperm.

I hate the thought that the press is leading fools and thugs who shot defenseless people to strut around thinking, "Yeah, I'm a gunman." The term gives them dignity they don't deserve.

And it's not logical. If I use my electric mixer, do I become a mixerwoman? No, I am not changed. Neither does a man who fires a gun become a gunman.
====================
Mrrzy, I agree with you 100% about 'stray bullet'. As my husband says, "Every person who pulls a trigger knows a bullet is going somewhere."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 May 20 - 05:55 PM

Waitri. Mattri. Stewardi.

But ... Octopodes.

Please don't say "face to face" when you mean on video.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 20 - 02:49 PM

It didn't go viral because it isn't the plural of virus. There are also no hippopotami, octopi or fora.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 19 May 20 - 01:31 PM

The word viri did not go viral but how about virosphere

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 19 May 20 - 01:09 PM

I took a shot of Ms. Lohan but it was overexposed.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 20 - 11:57 AM

Up north we'd often say get shut of something rather than get shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 May 20 - 11:53 AM

But did you get shot of your ex?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 20 - 11:33 AM

Heheh. Nice one, Donuel. :-)

I'm feeling a little shot at this afternoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 19 May 20 - 10:40 AM

He got shot so he got his shots, became blood shot and now he is totally shot after drinking 17 shots.

I shot a 'bow' in the air where it landed I know not where?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Charmion
Date: 19 May 20 - 09:59 AM

"Stray bullet" is one of those phrases that contains a whole 'nother story. Like "collateral damage".

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 May 20 - 08:51 AM

In the US at least, shot defaults to gun. You would specify if a bow were used.

Note I would say shot with a bow, not with an arrow, as I would say gun, not bullet.

Here's one that bugs me: stray bullet. No, it didn't get out the side door while the shooter wasn't paying attention. The vic was just not the *intended* target.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 20 - 05:50 AM

Helen Willetts, a BBC weather presenter, once informed us that " the overnight rain had washed the humidity out of the air." :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 20 - 05:45 AM

I saw this beauty somewhere once, possibly an obituary in the local rag (made-up names inserted): "Albert married the late Margaret in 1949..."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 19 May 20 - 05:37 AM

On the subject of untimely death, I am always irked when I read that someone has been shot “by a gun”.

-------- : --------

Or just say shot.


OK, it should be shot "with a gun" rather than shot "by a gun" and, normally, "shot" would do without further qualification; but - just to be picky - it could have been "shot with a crossbow" or "shot with an arrow". In fact, though it might be technically incorrect, I think I would accept "shot by an arrow" without flinching.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 May 20 - 11:00 PM

Fascinating geographical study there.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 18 May 20 - 10:14 PM

When I was growing up in south-western Ontario, "you and whose army?" was a question I was often asked, so I don't associate it with Liverpool or Glasgow or anywhere else. As for Mike Meyers, he came along a little later, so it might have a different association for him; I don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Joe_F
Date: 18 May 20 - 09:55 PM

Mrrzy: When I was a kid in southern California (1940s), my mother made it "You and what troop of Marines?". I don't know where she got it from. She came from the Middle West.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 May 20 - 09:03 PM

Or just say shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Charmion
Date: 18 May 20 - 08:50 PM

On the subject of untimely death, I am always irked when I read that someone has been shot “by a gun”.

Latin has this neat thing where you put the noun in a special form (or “case”) to indicate whether it is the direct object (accusative), indirect object (dative), or something else but still related to the verb (ablative). One of the several things the ablative does is indicate that a thing is the agent through which an action happens, and you translate it using the preposition “with”.

I really wish English had an ablative case so journalists would write “by a bad guy with a gun”.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 May 20 - 04:46 PM

At least they said Widow. I watch a lot of murder mysteries where they say Wife or Husband of (murder victim). Yes, that peeves me.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 20 - 03:56 PM

"The widow of the late Mr Smith...". :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 May 20 - 01:12 PM

Ok different peeve: when someone is killed BY something, say so, newspaper folk. Headlines saying Woman killed after being run over makes it sound like she survived being run over only to be shot or something afterwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 18 May 20 - 12:53 PM

..... because it is a typical bit of Glaswegian repartee.

I agree that it is "You and whose army" but it is not limited to Glasgow. It was a common bit bravado when I was growing up in Liverpool. If the actor's family came from Liverpool, maybe that's where he picked it up.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 May 20 - 12:53 PM

Shrek said "...and what army?" but Dick Francis wrote "...and whose army?" so given the clarification (of my definitely unclear post, speaking of peeves) I think What may be North American and Whose from (geographically if not politically) Europe.

Imma switch to Whose. It means to me that even *with* an army *you* couldn't do it. I love the added layer of sneer.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 18 May 20 - 12:39 PM

Mike Myers was born in Scarberia, not Liverpool. ("Scarberia" is the nickname given to the dreary suburb of Toronto that is known for too much asphalt and too few trees.) His reputation for being "difficult to work with" comes in part from the making of "Shrek." He recorded the voice in his Canadian accent, was not happy with the result and asked to re-record it. The second go at it he did with his "Scots" accent.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Charmion
Date: 18 May 20 - 11:25 AM

In my part of the world, Mrrzy, it's "you and whose army?"

Shrek is voiced by an English-born Canadian actor, Mike Myers, whose family emigrated from Liverpool to Scarborough, a suburb of Toronto, when he was a child.

George MacDonald Fraser quotes "you and whose army" in one of his short stories about life in a post-war Scottish infantry regiment, collected in one volume as The Complete MacAuslan. If I recall correctly, Shrek has a Scottish accent, and Myers (or the scriptwriter) may have added the insult because it is a typical bit of Glaswegian repartee.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:42 PM

If anyone has translator notes for that last post, please forward....

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:02 PM

Which is it, You and *what* army or Tou and *whose* army? They are differently disdainful to me. I would think England v. US but I've heard both from both.
Shrek comes to mind, American movie but nonAmerican English-speaking ogre.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 May 20 - 01:39 PM

Love dangling participles.

I fell in love with a weather forecaster when they read the teleprompter which said Ground Fog, stopped, turned to the camera and said Well of course it's *ground*! If it weren't on the ground it'd be up in the air and be *clouds*!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 12:01 PM

Rushing to catch the train, my umbrella fell out of my pocket.

Throwing the bread into the pond, the ducks ate it all up.

After spending decades in the attic, I uncovered my childhood school exercise books.

I chased the cat in my pyjamas out of the garden.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:43 AM

"PIN number."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:41 AM

Pleonasms can be quite entertaining. Our local BBC weatherman speaks of "dawn tomorrow morning" just about every day. Not quite as funny as DCI Grimm in the Thin Blue Line with his "8 AM in the morning hundred hours." "Tuna fish" is another belter. "ATM machine." HIV virus." A good Cloughie one: "In actual fact...". My much reviled "On a daily basis." Though I suppose Shakespeare might have done it on purpose in Julius Caesar when he had Mark Antony, standing over Caesar's bloodied body, saying that it was "the most unkindest cut of all."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 May 20 - 09:27 AM

Thinking IS to oneself, yeah! That's why you have to say Out Loud when talking and not just thinking.
Thinking out loud is oxymoronic. Thinking to oneself is redundant.
I love this thread. I hadn't noticed either of those before.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 May 20 - 09:16 AM

I thought to myself

.. as against thinking out loud.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: weerover
Date: 17 May 20 - 09:12 AM

Watching a documentary about emergency services this morning, The commentator said one crash victim had damaged vertebrae "in her back" (actually it sounded like he said "vertebra" as the plural, but can't be sure).

I have a number of everyday ones that bug me inordinately, such as "I thought to myself": don't know who else you could think to.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 08:42 AM

I have to say...


(Not if you don't want, you don't have to!)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:52 AM

Let me say this about that...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:10 AM

Let me make it absolutely clear. The Government's policy is that both my wife and I should be able to take exercise whenever and wherever we choose and that our chosen form of exercise is walking. Current scientific evidence suggests that face masks could provide a barrier to communication but wearing one, together with social distancing, gives me increased confidence that my wife has received all the useful information I have to give at this time.

DC