BS: The Atheist Delusion

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 01:48 PM

Yea, you are right Jeri, I just allowed myself to get angry a bad mistake on my part... I don't remember for example having any problems with you an atheist and me as attempted Christian over what 2 years of nightly talks on ICQ for example. I still even if I know I should not seem to get drawn into battles to easily... A personal failure of mine ...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 01:26 PM

Most of the delusion threads have a trajectory similar to a burst balloon.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 01:06 PM

ron-interesting posts,but you have not addressed posts directed to you yet.

jon-i suspect steves referring to me as the resident creationist.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 12:37 PM

Not a "typical atheist", I think. More a typical "holier than thou" type. As in most cases on the internet, the reasonable people are either trying for understanding or just not getting involved. It's always the egotistical that keep trying to win.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 12:20 PM

Or maybe it dos. Your preaching is worse than any holier than thou type ///christian and I don't get on with that type either...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 12:12 PM

It's a perspective that appears to leave out evolution. Now where have I heard that before...

I don;t really care. Have tried to make friends with you but as a typical atheist... No more need be said...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 06:20 AM

On that question of "how perfection might have created imperfection," the best explanation I've heard is that we were created incomplete, with free will and infinite potential, so that we might also create.
I like that perspective.

It's a perspective that appears to leave out evolution. Now where have I heard that before...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 10:55 PM

Shirer p 238:

"When, in May 1936, it (Niemoeller's group) addressed a courteous but firm memorandum to Hitler protesting against the anti-Christian tendencies of the regime, denouncing the government's anti-Semitism, and demanding an end of State interference in the churches, Frick, the Nazi Minister of the Interior, responded with ruthless action. Hundreds of "Confessional Church' pastors were arrested, one of the signers of the memorandum, Dr Weissler, was murdered in the Sachsenhausen concentration camp, the funds of the "Confessional Church' were confiscated, and it was forbidden to make collections."

Hans Kerrl, Hitler's pick for Minister for Church Affairs. spelled it out:

Shirer p 239:

"The Party (Kerrl said) stands on the basis of Positive Christianity, and Positive Christianity IS National Socialism...Dr. Zoellner and Count Galen (the Catholic bishop of Muenster) have tried to make clear to me that Christianity consists in faith in Christ as the Son of God...That makes me laugh....No, Christianity is not dependent upon the Apostle's Creed....True Christianity is represented by the party, and the German people are now called by the party and especially by the Fuehrer to a real Christianity...The Fuehrer is the herald of a new revelation."


On the first of July, 1937, Dr Niemoeller was arrested and confined to Moabit prison in Berlin.


Some 807 other pastors and leading laymen of the "Confessional Church" were arrested in 1937, and hundreds more in the next couple of years.







So in contrast to the drivel cited by our illustrious Mudcat atheists to assert that Hitler and the 3rd Reich were not aggressively atheistic, the words of Nazi spokesmen against religion were followed up by vicious and continuing persecution of anyone who did not accept "Positive Christianity" AKA Nazism. Which, as I have detailed, also included substituting Hitler for God.

Just as other atheistic states substituted and substitute the leader for God.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 10:29 PM

Gleichschaltung was also pushed hard among Protestants--with very revealing results as to the true attitude of the Nazis toward both Protestant and Catholic churches.

William R Shirer, Rise and Fall of the Third Reich:

p 235:

"The Reverend Martin Niemoeller had personally welcomed the coming to power of the Nazis in 1933.   In that year his autobiography, From U-Boat to Pulpit, had been published. The story of how this submarine commander in the First World War had become a prominent Protestant pastor was singled out for special praise in the Nazi press and became a best-seller."



At the close of his autobiography, he noted his satisfaction that the Nazi revolution had brought about the "national revival" he had fought for for so long.

The "Reich Church" set up by the Nazis soon revealed its nature to Rev Niemoeller.



"German Christians" who were of course by definition pro-Hitler, staged a massive rally in the Sportpalast in Berlin.   The Berlin leader of this group proposed the abandonment of the Old Testament and "the revision of the New Testament, with the teachings of Jesus 'corresponding entirely with the demands of National Socialism.' "

"All pastors were required to take an oath of allegiance to Hitler and institute the Aryan paragraph and exclude converted Jews."

"By the beginning of 1934 the disillusioned Pastor Niemoeller had become the guiding spirit of the minority resistance in both the ' Confessional Church' and the Pastors'
Emergency League".

More later.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 03:04 AM

Well, if you know God exists, why concern yourself with people that do not believe?

To know to date is beyond me, I can just strongly believe on that one.

I'm not really sure about the second part. I think one can get tried of hearing one's personal beliefs attacked and feel a need to defend them.

One could ask whether it's simply better to walk away or to allow the comments pass you by though. Now I'm back here, Should I walk away from here as some people will attack religion here? Should I stay silent and see only one side of arguments put forward? Should I (I hope generally in a friendly manner) try to present my views that are in opposition to those who attack religion forward? Should I pass any comment on a religious/non religious thread?

Only one I know is here would be the wrong place for me to start a God thread myself.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 02:49 AM

Interesting reply Joe, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 01:00 AM

Well, Jon, some of the most creative people have no faith, not even in themselves. They may do remarkable things, but they see themselves constantly on the brink of despair. I do think that believing in what has been given to you, can be a very good tonic for the soul.
And I have always admired your creative side....but I wish you'd get folkinfo back in working order as proof of that wonderful creativity (proving it to yourself is also important).
Sometimes I think it doesn't matter what you believe - it only matters that you believe. If you believe, you open yourself to unknown possibilities. If you refuse to believe, you tie yourself to your current reality.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Sawzaw
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 12:54 AM

Well, if you know God exists, why concern yourself with people that do not believe?

And the same goes for people that do not believe.

Bigotry is not being tolerant of other people's beliefs.

Japanese people believe or used to believe that people have 3 "faces", you know how they talk about losing face.

They have one face for the public, One face for their inner circle and one face that nobody sees but them. They keep their true face or beliefs hidden.

Therefore they can respect other peoples beliefs, take a lot abuse, enjoy themselves around thier friends and still feel confident no matter what someone sys about them. It gives them an inner strength.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 12:44 AM

Nice one Joe. This is the wrong place probably but that would lead me to the question why when (as I believe) nothing is impossible can many of us not even (at lest at times,,,) et even the most basics right? My own take would be lack of faith (as opposed to believing something is out there) but can I find faith to that degree?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 12:33 AM

On that question of "how perfection might have created imperfection," the best explanation I've heard is that we were created incomplete, with free will and infinite potential, so that we might also create.
I like that perspective.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 12:14 AM

There is much none of understand Smokey. The tale of Adam and Eve, original sin or how perfection might have created imperfection is all beyond me. OTOH, I very much believe mankind has a lot to answer for...

From one very very personal point of view I just look around at nature these days and think what could have been. Despite it;s flaws, even our garden COULD *but isn;t* have been the Garden of Eden...

I think some of us who try to believe and deep down do belief can wreck our heads with this sort of stuff...

Hope that makes some sense from my personal POV. Jon

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:58 PM

There is lot's I could question sawsawz, eg.

One can find onself in situations where anti-religious jokes are popular but you just once try to defend your belief and you will find "avoid him, he always talks religion" Say an an 20 anti comments to 1 pro comment ratio, the "always is totally illogical but it happens.

I've given up asking why that should be...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:56 PM

Who's protesting?

If the god I don't believe in existed, the world would be a far better place than it actually is. There are times when the laws of physics are a dreadful inconvenience :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:34 PM

If not closing the door on the possibility that there might be a God makes one sound like a believer, declaring there is no God makes one sound like they are afraid there might be a God.

Why protest the existence of something that does not exist?

Or keep repeating the claim that God does not exist?

Methinks thou dost protest too much!

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:38 PM

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad you say most rather than all. There is a local church near me that is lovely for example. I'll join it one day. Margaret who keeps it going (it's actually COE but would have been shut down by the authorities had she and others not helped with funding) is a bend over backwards to help anyone type and it is communal in a nice way.

I think in more "official places" one can as well as the genuine run into very judgemental holier than thou s and while the latter can be a tempting route, these days, I think it is as mistaken as you can get...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:23 PM

Yes, I think most organised religion is a misuse of belief.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:08 PM

But out of curiosity, would you also agree that is a misuse of belief?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:05 PM

Yes, Jon... I've always said that if Hitler had won, we'd now all be Catholic, and Catholicism would have taken a few steps back towards mediaeval times in its machinations.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:34 PM

It's impossible to tell, but the Churches certainly took his belief seriously

the vicar of Bray is coming to mind

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:28 PM

I have no wish to start another thread for this, and this was the religion thread near the top.

Just read a New Yorker magazine...well, cartoons.

God is sitting at a desk on a cloud, looking peeved. Hovering at his shoulder is a smallish, teen-age looking angel.

Angel is saying: "Perhaps people would pay more attention to the Lord, if the Lord had a funny blog..."

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:15 PM

It's impossible to tell, but the Churches certainly took his belief seriously. The notion that he was an atheist was propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 08:35 PM

I'd personally suspect Hitler comes into the agnostic category.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 07:53 PM

The fact that churches existed in Nazi Germany should tell you something.

It seems to conclusively indicate that contrary to Ron's belief, Nazi Germany was not an 'atheist state' whether Hitler believed in God or not, and no-one will ever really know that. Only the individual can truly know what they believe, and I don't think that's often as clear-cut as is claimed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 12:11 PM

Actually, what Hitler said or didn't say is irrelevant to this discussion unless you try to impugn atheism as a sort of nazism which seems to be implied, here. Hitler was a mad man and anything he says must be taken in that context.

The same would be true for anyone impugning atheism as a form of nazism or totalitarianism.

The fact that the Catholic Church helped Nazis is on historical record.

The fact that churches existed in Nazi Germany should tell you something.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 12:03 PM

True Dave. Odd thing is I love them both... Our other current pet Willie Weasels the (female it turned out) ferret is different again.

What is perhaps odder is the while I'd know a cat by their ways, at the same time, I'd know which one we have .once had by their personalties.

Perhaps the same could be said for humans though.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:02 AM

Dogs look up to people, cats look down on them.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:48 AM

LOL John. You know the cat and dog one thats been posted here before?

In brief and I can't find the quote but sort of

dog: my master feeds and cares for me - he must be a God
cat: I can get food and comfort from my humans so I must be a God

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: John P
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:35 AM

My cat thinks he's God, but I think he's deluded. He plays the part pretty well, though.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 09:12 PM

I think our cats are mostly believers in their own comfort and tummies...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 05:33 PM

I like to think my cat's an atheist but it's really quite difficult to tell.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 08:18 AM

>Well if it's going to drift that way. I have a lovely snotty mate. He really can be snotty in mood is big and a bully to other cats but there is plenty loveable about hin. Meet Worthy the Snot Cat <

He is gorgeous Jon at least he is something nice to have a look at on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 06:50 AM

Most of the back and forth and parallel arguments here, and in similar threads (with similar postings) have been discussed at length and summed up in a multitude of Internet sites, including the one below.

Matthew (whoever he is) has put much of it together in a easy to read format. A read could possibly reduce the number of threads dedicated to the same repeated (I never said tired) arguments   (Just a suggestion, not an argument, though it is possible it could start one). :)


An Introduction to Atheism (1997), by Matthew

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 06:38 PM

Is mankind doomed because people have to find something to fight about?

Personal belief would say mankind is doomed because our in general disbelief in God and our desires and greed for bad things.

Maybe from an any/non religious POV way to look at things would be to go for a walk in the mountains or on the beach or look in your garden. Then appreciate what is there, what might have been and what messes we can make with nature,

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 04:17 PM

Ron, you specifically asked for a quote of Hitler declaring his non-atheism which was not from one of his speeches or from 'Mein Kampf' and I gave you one, with no indication as to my opinion of it, as that would not have been relevant. Our opinions obviously differ - try and live with it. Personal insults are counter-productive to any discussion and your opinion of me is as completely and utterly irrelevant as mine of you.

There is no point whatsoever standing on your soapbox and declaring the same old stuff over and over again, no-one is here to have their mind changed. Save your energy for something useful or join in the discussion properly; I'm sure you are a far better man than the impression you are giving.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 03:36 PM

sawsaw-sensible post essentially.as a believer i am more interested in sharing my faith than arguing it.i endeavour that to be the case in my contributions on these threads, in answer to atheist arguments

ron-while in broad agreement with your comments it does seem to me that if you expect responses,it might be a good idea to respond yourself to others.

jon-hope you,re doing OK.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 01:36 PM

So it appears we have one brilliant Mudcat atheist quoting Hitler:   "I am a Catholic."   And another stellar thinker (again an atheist, of course) saying that because Hitler said he was against atheism, he himself was not an atheist.

Sorry, this is evidence of nothing except the afore-mentioned gullibility of some Mudcat atheists--if that were ever in question.

Good thing said Mudcat atheists were not Germans living in the 3rd Reich--it sounds as if they would be easy marks for Hitler's propaganda.

I note also that even my little one-question quiz (complete with hints) has proven too difficult for the giant intellects of the Mudcat atheists we are honored to have with us.

Yet they claim to be reasonable people relying on logic to deal with issues.   Their grasp of logic evidently was not sufficient for the little quiz.

Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 05:58 PM

"Actions speak louder..."

Not over the internet, unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 04:15 PM

Though my spelling be shite...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 04:13 PM

What do you think of Shostacovich's music, Ron?

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 03:47 PM

Well, it looks like it's time for a little quiz.   In fact only one question.

If you are living under a regime, which is more important for you: that regime's talk or its actions?

Clue:   "Talk is cheap."

Another clue ( for some of the slower atheists we seem to have with us on this thread now):

"Actions speak louder..."

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 03:34 PM

If God exists, that is OK with me. I am not going to rule that out.

If on the other hand there is no God and the believers are deluded, that does not bother me either

But then, why beat up on someone that believes there is a God?

What is the purpose? What does it accomplish? What are you going to convince them of?

What are the believers going to accomplish by arguing with the non believers?

Seems people must have better, more important things to do but argue religion.

Is mankind doomed because people have to find something to fight about? Is that natures plan? Part of survival of the fittest?

Whatever you believe in, if it makes you happy, I am happy too.

Shouldn't we all be happy or should we find things to argue about and be pissed off about?

This God / no God thing is a waste of time like the chicken or egg argument.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 02:47 PM

Thanks Pete, it's a shame there aren't more contributors willing to offer a bit of support and encouragement.

As my granny didn't used to say - 'If there's a man overboard, you don't ask whether he's Welsh or not before you chuck him the rope.'

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 01:48 PM

dont apologize smokey;encouragement is better than some of the negatives on some posts.

one day at a time jon-with my prayers.

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 08:38 PM

Yes Smokey. There is nothing more horrible than falling out and feeling there is nothing more you can do for a person. It is actually
worse than just rowing.

We row at home perhaps too often but however badly know to pick up the pieces and try again. We can blow things grand style but...

Subject: RE: BS: The Atheist Delusion
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 08:19 PM

My apologies to the thread for this digression.