Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 06:40 PM

Not to dream of disparaging Rob's efforts above, but I do believe that In the Sidings was one of Cyril Tawney's rather than Dave's own.

Richard

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: robd
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 03:03 AM

"Not to dream of disparaging Rob's efforts above, but I do believe that In the Sidings was one of Cyril Tawney's rather than Dave's own."

No, not disparaged at all! This is the kind of feedback I hope to get. I don't have attributions for any of the songs I transcribed. I hope to give credit due wherever possible. Thanks for the update, and hope to see more.

-- rob

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: robd
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 03:20 AM

Quick correction, an omission on my part.
Last verse, third line, of the Pinxton Railway song:

- And the gentlemen in black top hats they drank a solemn toast

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 05:26 AM

I know Dave has a book of the lyrics for the songs on his January Man CD, but don't know about the railway songs. I have let him know this thread is running, and no doubt he will be in touch.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: maeve
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 05:38 AM

He already knows, John. What a team, eh?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 07:20 AM

Dave's wife has just pointed out, that most of these songs are subject to copyright, and that belongs to EMI. Even he has to pay them for the use of them.
I suggest this thread be closed, in case Mudcat gets in trouble with EMI

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 07:49 AM

If this song is not one of those copyright of EMI then 1st line second verse 'Shutdown of the Pinxton Line' = colliery - if it is an EMI one then I don't know what it is.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 07:54 AM

Same song next line - if it's not an EMI one then it runs

"And the smell of burning slag it fills the air"

but if it is an EMI one, I haven't a clue, just sounds a jumble to me.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 08:03 AM

I enjoyed reading these - well done! I was riding through the Rossendale Valley behind a Black Five on Sunday.

The Turntable Accident

The fireman wiped his greasy hands, they rolled along the track
To pick up a gallon of water and a couple of tubs of slaCK
A couple of tubs of slaCK
Slack = dusty bituminous coal

The foreman turned a ghastly greeN and grabbed the telephone
Then half a bottle of aspirin and he caught the next bus home
Caught the next bus home

Eight Freight Blues

With a thousand tons of coal behind and a tender full of slaCK
Me mates sent me to Coventry and they just won't answer back

The LMR (Shut-Down of the Pinxton Line)

There the scrap yard and the culuwee(sp???) and pubs of great renown
And the smell of burning slaggat fill the air
culuwee = colliery?
slaggat = slack that?

Pinwherry Dip

Till at lAst they were spent and they came to a rest
At the bottom of Pinwherry Dip

Race to the North

King Harbor = Kinnaber Junction

In old Eastern station they reveled in the situation
They had to beat their time from CrewE to Carlisle

Station People

She carried off to Gretna Green a randy book from Argentina
book = bloke? - for marriage at Gretna Green!

British/American spelling
revelled/reveled
splendour/splendor

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 08:04 AM

When I have listened to The Day We Ran Away I have always Dave to sing

"sure as hell if I'd 'a' fell I'd be shovelling there (ie in Hell) today."

perhaps a representative of EMI might like to enlighten us?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 08:14 AM

In the Dinosaur - Waberthwaite = Haverthwaite (in the lake district)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 08:27 AM

In the sidings -

My boiler fire is burning low

I also have a completely different line for

And its timbers turn to a woodworm's meals

ie

And the timbers rot and the paintwork peels

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: maeve
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 08:44 AM

As John has pointed out, there is potential for causing Dave trouble due to copyright issues. It is usually wise to check before posting someone else's work online. Please check with the author before posting. Dave Goulder's site is easily accessible, and email to him is answered promptly, in my experience. http://www.davegoulder.co.uk/

There will be a book about the railway songs. We'll just have to wait for that.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 02:01 PM

We will delete the lyrics post if we receive a request from EMI or from Dave Goulder. Generally, we will remove lyrics posts if the holder of the copyright or the songwriter asks for removal - by contacting us directly. In general, we've found that the song owners don't mind properly-attributed lyrics posted in a forum discussion, because it helps publicize the songs.

This thread motivated me to start looking for copies of Dave's train song recordings. I found one CD, but the price in the US was horrendous.

Please have Dave contact me or Max.

-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-
[e-mail]

Max Spiegel, Mudcat's owner, is [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 02:37 PM

I'll send you a pirate copy :-)   :-)   :-)









JOKING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 02:40 PM

So someone needs to e-mail EMI then

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 03:07 PM

DAVE GOULDER, THE GOLDEN DAYS OF STEAM, FECD221

Dave's two railway records have recently been re-released on CD by Fellside as The Golden Days of Steam at a very reasonable price of £13.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6Hkxs0ScoU

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 03:08 PM

On the subject of the songs themselves....

I'm open to correction but I seem to remember that Dave's turntable song came from a famous incident at Kirkby in Ashfield shed. Somebody on the footplate of an 8F 2-8-0 didn't spot that the track he was on didn't line up with the table and drove the engine into the well! There was a lot of cursing and head scratching before they got it out again. There is a photo somewhere, will see if it's on the web.

Mind you they're all mad up theer me duck.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: robd
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 05:25 PM

First of all, I do not want to do anything wrong here, and of course, if it is deemed wrong, please delete it all. I hope that we can keep the lyrics though, because these songs are brilliant, and I'd hate to see them left behind to fade out of memory like so many of the trains they tell of.

That said, thank you all for your corrections! Quite a number of them were simply bonehead typos of my own, and one stemmed from the fact that I did not transcribe it, nor even listen to it and compare for accuracy, but simply took it as found (In the Sidings). I changed the lyrics to what Dave sings, and added the alternate line as a footnote.

Somehow I found Waberthwaite, but failed to find Haverthwaite. They are close enough to each other geographically to perhaps justify either one belonging in the song, but by my hearing, the corrected Haverthwaite seems like the right one. I probably don't even come close to pronouncing Waberthwaite correctly.

colliery : still sounds a little different to me, but fits much better as it is actually a real and sensible word.

By the way, I first encountered the album Requiem many years ago in the Norfolk public library, on LP. I made a cassette that I listened to until you could almost see thru the tape. I finally found an LP copy on eBay, and not long after that, an LP of Chip Shop. I hope to get a righteous copy of the CD someday, but the price is currently high, and often not quite available. These are my favorite train songs of all time.


-- rob d.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 05:39 PM

Read the Guest post at 03:07.
As I have already stated, these songs are subject to copyright, and in most cases that rsts with EMI. Even Dave, who wrote them, has to pay EMI if he wants to re-record them.
It's all very well for Joe Offer to be arrogant, and state he will not do anything unless requested to do so by, either EMI or Dave Goulder, but the fact remains that it is illegal to publish them without the permission of the copyright holder.
My advice is this, ditch the idea that Mudcat is above such mundanity, and close this thread, if you don't want to be sued for breach of copyright.
I trust that is clear enough!
As has been said, a book is in the process of preparation, and will be availabe ere long.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 05:42 PM

In the hope that no-one does ask for this thread to be deleted, a couple more corrections.

I've never heard the song Station People, but I'm sure that in v.3 Brenda must be a season ticket vendor, i.e. one who sells season tickets (though I can't imagine why she should specialise in that rather than sell all kinds of tickets).

And in v.6 Doncaster seems a lot more likely than Duncaster.

Richard

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 06:13 PM

Yes, the dinosaurs are gathering. In Waberthwaite and Pickering
And Watercress and Lavender and Bluebell, we can ride the line

Lakeside and Haverthwaite Railway - Cumbria
North Yorkshire Moors Railway - Grosmont to Pickering
Watercress Line - Mid Hants Railway
Lavender Line - East Sussex; A.E. Lavender and Sons were the local coal merchants who operated from the station yard
Bluebell Railway - the first preserved standard gauge passenger line in the world; East Sussex again

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 06:38 PM

Requiem for Steam

"poor little sheep with the shouldering back" should be "the smouldering back" (where red hot ash from the chimney has landed on it)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: robd
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 06:53 PM

Requiem for Steam

"poor little sheep with the shouldering back" should be "the smouldering back" (where red hot ash from the chimney has landed on it)

Crikey, rotten spell check must have got it and I clicked when I should'a clacked. It was right in the original transcription. Thanks for the catch.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 06:55 PM

In the published recording of Ivor the Driver the verse

The sleepy old miner he scratched and he spat
And he says to himself, "Now, how'ed he do that"?

is omitted

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 07:09 PM

Green all the Way

although it sounds like "the deathtrap carb" this is just accent. the words should be "deathtrap cab"

With steam engines there was a solid mass of steel in front of the drivers cab that would take a lot of any impact if there was a collision. A diesel cab being right at the front of the engine and built with only relatively flimsy metal would crush on impact along with the driver.

Hence "And the way things are as smashed there's bound to be
They won't find very much of me"

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 02:28 AM

sorry, copied and pasted and didn't even notice that it didn't say

"And the way things are a smash there's bound to be
They won't find very much of me"

I must be getting senile

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 03:08 AM

This is the background to 'Race to the North '

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 03:49 AM

Settle and Carlisle

the line 'The bridges over Arden Hill, then ???'

runs

"The bridges over Arten Gill, Dent Head and Batty Moss"

Batty Moss being another name for Ribblehead

Viaducts on the Settle Carlisle

I love these songs, like Rob I first discovered the recordings on vinyl back in the early seventies with Requiem for Steam on the Big Ben label. I have since bought two copies of each of the individual cds and was given the compilation cd as a present. I was also delighted to meet Dave at Broadstairs Folk Week a couple of years back. The magic of the songs is that they are so obviously written by someone who has 'been there, done that' and not by an armchair enthusiast/poet.

If you are in any way railway minded or have a nostalgia for or interest in the days of steam then these are a must for you. They are available from Dave's website along with a few clips to whet your appetite. Don't just sit there - order them now - here:- Dave Goulder's website

Are EMI involved with the book?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 04:26 AM

Settle and Carlisle

"When snow is blown around the fells footings disappear"

for "footings" read "cuttings"

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 04:37 AM

Ais Gill

"Steel hammers hard at the steel, carriages crumple to splinters"

I think this should be

"Steel hammers hard INTO steel, carriages crumple to splinters" ie a collision

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 04:54 AM

Last Train to Bacup

"Of fly-shunting wagons, and when they ran off the rails,
Ending up in the centre of town"

makes more sense as sung by Dave

"Of fly-shunted wagons, that ran off the rails,
Ending up in the centre of town"

hope this is coming over in a positive light - I'm not trying to demolish the work that went into the transcription.

by the way - this site Disused Stations is totally fascinating and I wonder what our transatlantic friends might make of it - do you have anything similar?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 05:19 AM

Big Bertha

"As nineteen twenty gone"

"As nineteen twenty dawned"

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 05:55 AM

Dinosaur

"For he'd snatched a coupling at the brake to make a plaything of the guard"

"For he'd snatched a coupling hit the brake to make a plaything of the guard"

On a loose coupled train the links between wagons were large 3 link chains that had a bit of slack. If an engine started briskly it would take up the slack wagon by wagon and on a long train the engine could be moving relatively quickly by the time the brake van (caboose for the transatlantics) started moving at all. If the driver had applied the brake in the meantime the wagons would continue to bump into each other until the brake van hit the now stationary train, shaking up the guard.

The sound of a loose coupled train was distinctive and common but now almost lost to the world, along with "fly shunting" where wagons were uncoupled in ones, twos or more then given a push to make them roll away into the sidings without the rest of the train having to follow. By use of a number of sidings trains were split up and sorted quickly at hubs (or marshalling yards) according to their onward destination.

rather like this - fly shunting

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 02:47 PM

I received the following e-mail from Dave Goulder. In view of this message, I think it's probably better to remove the first post from this thread.
-Joe-

---

Hello Joe

I don't want to get into a long debate regarding song lyrics on Mudcat - especially mine. It is indeed flattering to have one's lyrics posted for all to enjoy, but they must be the correct words. When writing the songs it is essential to get all the facts and terminology right to the last detail, otherwise all the railway enthusiasts in the world will be at your door. Being a poet as well as a song-writer I have always been very particular regarding words on the page, and spent many hours fine tuning the work. It's a bit like living with a painting - adding and altering until it is finished.

As John MacKenzie has stated , I am putting together a collection of the entire railway output for that very reason. The only printed collection (long deleted, but the copyright still applies) was 'Green All The Way', early songs published by Robbins Music (now EMI). The new one will have the words as I wrote them, and the tunes notated correctly. As with my other book of non-railway songs, 'January Man', I will have to pay a royalty to EMI for my own material. You can imagine how I feel about this.

The later songs are published by EFDSS and Harbourtown Music, who along with EMI, should be informed of the posting, by whoever is responsible for so doing. I have no say in this matter, the publishers own the copyrights. My own plea is that the words should be the ones I wrote.

If it helps to clarify the situation, I am happy for you to post this message on the Forum.

Regards
Dave Goulder

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 03:34 PM

A good photographic record here of the life and death of Bacup station featured in Stanley Accrington's Last Train from Bacup

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: robd
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 04:59 PM

Hey all. Since I started this, I ought to say, it still amazes me how easy it sometimes is to find the actual source on the internet, and, how I still fail to think of it as the first source. I've searched for these lyrics for about 30 years. When I finally gave up, and chose to transcribe them myself, it never occurred to me that they, that is, Dave himself, was that close.

So, sorry for creating the tempest, but, at least, I hope the renewed interest sparks others to seek out these songs, which as I've said, are the best train songs ever.

from rafflesbear: "hope this is coming over in a positive light - I'm not trying to demolish the work that went into the transcription."

Couldn't be more positive. I'm not surprised at the place names that I failed to catch, actually pleased with myself at the few I got right, but shocked and chagrined at the number of now obvious typos and simple missed hearings. Normally, I am more careful, but I don't always do two whole albums at once, and sadly, this time I was not.

So, yes, quite positive, and thankful, and extremely appreciative of your corrections, which are to me of far more value than my original transcriptions. Note that a couple of the songs, Bacup, and Sidings, I found already done by others, and produced here as is. I should have verified them with a close listen to the songs first too.


As Dave himself notes above, getting them right is very important, and in every song lyric search I've done, which seems like thousands, that has been my primary goal. I have not always succeeded, since sometimes even the performer does not know whether or not the words they sing are correct, and sometimes the original writer will often sing variant versions of their own songs. Sometimes the origin of the song is lost in time, and the best we can do is a helpless guess as to the original lyric.

Where the writer is still around, thank God for him, we can seek them out for correction. Or, as in this case, we hope to see an actual songbook produced. This is always more preferable than my best transcriptions.

Eventually, all songs of great lasting value will find themselves subject to the folk process, perhaps to their ultimate detriment, in some cases, but without which they might be lost in their entirety.

Anyway, I am perfectly ok with taking down the lyric dump I posted. It had too many errors to have been left up anyway. Thanks to all who posted replies, your corrections are greatly appreciated. I hope to see these songs preserved forever. May my descendants find my long lost LPs and love them as much as I have.

Lastly, [licensing leeches rant deleted]

Instead, I'll leave with a little song written to the tune of a probably recognizable Mouse song, written by a luminary friend of mine who requests he be identified as Justin O'Thereditor.

(this was written after ASCAP went after the Girls Scouts of America for royalties from little girls singing the Macarena around a campfire)

---
Who controls the music from "c-sharp" to shining "c"?
       A-S-C-
       A & P
       A-S-C-A-P!
Who's got Woody Guthrie spinning in the cemet'ry?
       A-S-C-
       A & P
       A-S-C-A-P!
Pay it up! (shout: "Pay it up!")
Pay it up! (shout: "Pay it up!")
Forever let 'em get a royalty! (shout: "Tee! Hee! Hee!")
They got all the lawyers 'cause they got the dough-re-mi.
       A-S-C-
       A & P
       A-S-C-A-P!

So be sure to pay your dues, by Royalty Decree,
       A-S-C- (etc.)
So They can send more lobbyists to Washington D.C.
       A-S-C- (etc.)
As - Cap! (Duck solo: "BMI!")
As - Cap! (Duck solo: "BMI!")
You never get to sing without a fee! (big bass solo shout: "Fie! Foe! Fum!")
(slower:)
Now it's time to say goodbye to all our revelry.
(real slow:)
       A - S - C - - -
       (spoken solo:) "See you in court!"
       A - and - P - - -
       (spoken solo) "And please pay promptly"
(Full orcestration, five part harmony, and all kinds of things:)
A - - - S - - - C - - - A - - - P - - - !


----------------
Note: I once had someone track down john Roberts and Tony Barrand and ask them what the line in "Come and I will sing you" was, that sounded to me like "Eight of them are the filly shine white". The answer was, that is exactly it. No idea what it means or references to.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 07:00 PM

As far as I know (and she who must be obeyed has a great deal to do with copyright), there is no problem with discussing lyrics or putting parts of them on sites like this as a fair and legitimate part of that discussion. EMI may well want their pound of flesh if the whole lyric is published, especially for profit, but they hardly have a shout in this context.
All power to your elbow, Dave, for wanting to protect the words as you wrote them. I've enjoyed them for many years since being introduced to them by a signalman at Kirkby Town Crossing.
KYBTTS

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: robd
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 08:43 PM

Thanks for taking them down, I am now suitably embarrassed by how many typos and misshearings there were. I had thought that since there were already a couple of Dave G. songs on 'cat, that more would be ok, but the totality of them was a camel straw. But, there were too many errors for them to remain where folks could stumble upon them unknowingly too. I will strive to be more careful in future.

A couple more mal mots I found:

>> She carried off to Gretna Green a randy book from Argentina
>> book = bloke? - for marriage at Gretna Green!

... a randy cook from Argentina ...

Speaking of, Angusina is also not "hagridden" (quite the word find by the way, or so I thought) but "Hebridean", I am sure of it now.

-- robd

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 05:32 PM

Having written about shunting above I just had to share this with you -

Shunting

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: maeve
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 08:01 AM

Update on Dave Goulder's forthcoming book of Railway songs, here:

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dave Goulder Train Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 08:56 AM

Waberthwaite does not equal Haverthwaite !
Two very different places. Haverthwaite is south of Lake Windermere,
Waberthwaite is to the west near Broughton in Furness, Duddon Valley.