BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People

Subject: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: saulgoldie
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 10:28 AM

I am a firm believer in talking before escalating, treating one's opponents (enemies?) with the same respect that all humans are entitled to. Once the open hand of discourse becomes a closed fist of fear and rage, the interaction has gone South and will likely not return to anything vaguely resembling civility.

But...what about when the person on the "other side" has already gone that way? What is a reasonable person to do? When "facts" is just a word that means "whatever I say it means," and talk--OK, even shouting--is met with wholesale arrest, bullets, and tanks. What then?

When, for example in another thread here, one refers to a Mother Jones--red meat for some--demonstration of the distribution of wealth that can be thoroughly fact-checked, and is casually dismissed by those who "don't see it that way" what does a thoughtful, rational, fact-based person do?

When peaceful conversation and demonstration are met with intentional disruption and violence, what does one do? Close the hand into a fist?

How can a reasonable person respond?

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 10:33 AM

Stop posting on the thread - Simple and don't even look at it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 10:39 AM

Well, there's quite a lot of possibilities. One is that 'my' opinion is wrong. I'm sure we have all had that. A particular aspect of that is when the data has multiple parts and the 'other' weights them differently. Even if you disagree, there's something to be learnt.

Another possibility can arise if there is no hope of convincing the other. It can sometimes be worth a genial discourse setting out the facts as you see them anyway: a third person who is undecided may visit the thread and use it to inform their opinion. Abuse and derision of the other will do more harm than good in that case.

Then there's the possibility that the other is actually open to persuasion, even though they defend their position with vigour. Not too common, but found occasionally.

But if all else fails, and having set out your position as fully as appropriate, wish them a civil good day and leave them to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: saulgoldie
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 11:02 AM

"But if all else fails, and having set out your position as fully as appropriate, wish them a civil good day and leave them to it."

To policy-makers who ignore demonstrable, provable facts and any semblance of "If P, then Q, etc." or to Quadafi?

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: JHW
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 11:19 AM

I've never sought to win an argument with a post. I say what I think. Others say what they think. Readers pick where they like. Threads can often get bogged down by contention on an aspect which may not even appear in the substantive post.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 11:23 AM

There isn't one simple answer to your questions, saulgoldie. What you have to do is feel out each particular situation on its own merits and decide then and there what to do...because each situation is unique. For that, you have to trust your own best instincts and hope they lead you in the right direction.

For one person, one specific response may be the best...but for another, another response. So, you could...

- walk away
- remain silent
- respond in kind
- use violence
- use friendly verbal persuasion
- use threatening verbal persuasion
- use humorous verbal response
- etc.

There IS no one right answer to your question, but there are many possibilities. I always trust my best instincts, and they mostly seem to steer me in the right direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 11:25 AM

Simple. You can control yourself. Period. No one else.

Morality based on getting one's way is not really morality. Morals applied to someone else are not morals, they're judgments. See?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 11:46 AM

In threads on a forum such as this, often the only recourse is leaving YOUR idea of reason behind, so that other 'reasonable' people may compare it with the UNreasonable stuff. I do this constantly.

In real life, it is much more complicated and obviously results in conflict of...ummmm...various sorts.
If one has some 'power', things can get interesting. It is instructive to read about how Lyndon Johnson got certain civil rights legislations passed.

I pass on an old joke which 'may' be based on some true incident.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

During the early days of union organizing in the coal mining industry, some workers were trying to get every possible vote for some measure. They were going from man to man, explaining how it would benefit the group and doing well until they got to old Jake.
"I don't understand it, and I ain't gonna vote for it!", Jake said.
So they sat him down and went over the details again, with the union rep telling Jake earnestly how much it meant to have his vote.
"I STILL don't understand all that stuff", Jake replied, "and I ain't gonna vote for sumpthin' I don't understand!"
Finally, several guys told the union rep., "Ok...let us try once more...privately with Jake. So they took Jake out behind a shack and said, "Jake...this here is good for the union, and we need your vote...and iffn we don't get it, we're gonna beat the livin' crap outta you!"
   Well, next day the vote was held and Jake voted quietly with all the rest, and soon after, some of his buddies said, "Hey Jake... we thought you didn't understand and were gonna vote against this...how did Charlie and Sam manage to change your mind?"
"Well...ummm", Jake replied, "No one ever explained it so clearly before!"

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 12:00 PM

Look at the situation in Libya. Many feel that 'the people' need help from outside, and are debating "how" & "who" & "when", long before anyone has decided "whether".

In situations like this there IS no really clear answer...even among 'reasonable' people....because there is no clear consensus among Libyans as to what they'd prefer. I heard several insist that 'interference' from some power like the US would ruin the result because they didn't want any feeling of obligation to us. "Please...let us do it ourselves"
Others felt that so many were dying that the UN should get involved.

It seems that 'reason' was on BOTH sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: kendall
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 12:09 PM

Most dogs will, if allowed to, jump up on you. The best way to stop this is to turn your back and deny them the attention they seek.
Nuff said.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Maryrrf
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 12:30 PM

Well said, Kendall!

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 12:53 PM

I would never turn my back on an unknown dog. A known one, probably. And the same could be said for many people.

In ignoring a certain type of person, they only become more and more angry. Sometimes that starts to feel downright scary. I actually went into a room and barricaded the door because I had so angered a man by ignoring his fury.

There are so many types of encounters. Face to face, I turned and walked away from someone a few nights ago because the conversation had become circular and I could not get off the merry go round so I left. I explained it later by email. I belief that MY brain dys-functioned from the noise and confusion. I wonder if this could be the cause in other situations - one or both brains...

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: EBarnacle
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 01:17 PM

The problem's analogous to dealing with trolls. Any response gives them an excuse to expound massively, whether or not they are either addressing the issue or the truth. Walk away and, unless you actually have something to contribute, don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 01:34 PM

A friend of mine worked many years with customer service for a firm. She said she frequently dealt with 'Unreasonable' People.

I asked her if dealing with unreasonable clients bothered her. She said not much, though it was a challenge.

I asked why not? She said that her experience is that most people she dealt with who were 'Unreasonable' were so because of one or more past experiences, not the issue/case they were dealing with at the time. She indicated that this is the key to taking an approach to resolve issues, and not getting caught up in an argument, (that only makes things worse). She said her approachy was to separate (and zero in on) the issue of the moment from those past unresol;ved issues/experiences.

So, when I deal with 'Unreasonable' people,here or elsewhere, I normally am trying to identicy and separate the issue from the baggage they bring to the discussion (often baggage that they deny, or even realize, that exists). But, I do not profess to be an expert in that, and have been known to get caught up in it myself:)

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 01:47 PM

I try to separate the unreasonable into two groups: those that are on the level, and those that are not.

I have read that often a person who is obnoxious is actually afraid. I just saw that at the post office, where a single mother hadn't received her paycheck on time. She was very demanding, but she had a real problem. She had to pay her rent and buy food. But she was too upset (and probably afraid) to believe that it was her employer's responsibility to get her paid, not the clerk at the post office.

The clerk stayed calm throughout, but the woman stomped off, no better off than when she came in. Several people in the post office complimented the clerk on her composure after the mother was gone.

But other people can be obnoxious out of malice or not doing their homework. I have no time for people who enjoy making trouble, or who get a smug sense of power from making others afraid.

I might contribute a fact or two, but I'm not going to try to reform them.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 01:53 PM

Ignore them and walk away. Then continue to ignore them. That's what they hate the most, being ignored. Never respond to them. Change the subject if you feel you must post to a thread.

Your alternative in "real life" is to either drop a brick on their head or totally discredit them and make them a laughing stock.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 02:04 PM

Another aspect of this subject is that sometimes (often?) we don't recognize that we are being unreasonable. I think that most of the time I am reasonable (your perception may vary) but when I am angry, reason often goes out my window.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 02:38 PM

If it's a real disagreement, rather than mere bullying, one approach that can be worth trying is for opponents to make a genuine effort to state as fairly as possible the position held by the other person.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: EBarnacle
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 02:42 PM

I believe we are deasling in a drift here, folks. Saul asked specifically about dealing with people who are solely interested in expounding and pontificating as part of a thread process.

While the majority of entries have validity, they tend to deal with the real world rather than the Cat world.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 03:36 PM

Rapparee
I have tried what you stated. It worked.
Why be an enabler of pomposity from boorish,pompous blowhards?

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 07:01 PM

Before becoming obsessed with trying to convince one person he is wrong, you need to ask yourself, "Is this the best way I could be spending my time?"

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 08:56 PM

Ed T., you dropped a brick on their head? Good for you!

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 09:21 PM

Listen, Saul... There are more horses asses than there are horses...

That the way it is...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Janie
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 10:32 PM

What Bill D. said.

And what Jim Dixon said.

And Bobert - define horse's ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 10:39 PM

Ummmm??? Well, lets see... Okay, here's one... It's my infamous lady at the checkout counter at the local Food Fresh and she discovers that she has to actually pay???

That qualifies for the horse's ass credentials...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 10:44 PM

Surely that's the mare's ass?

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: EBarnacle
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 11:25 PM

A horse is a horse, of course, of course...

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 11:43 PM

Ebbie:

Category: horse

Sub-categories: stallion [male horse] (unless ~~
                gelding)
                mare [female horse]

So, with your above intervention, perhaps you were being

···ur, er, um ···

Unreasonable?

*bg*

❤♥~M~♥❤

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Janie
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 11:48 PM

OK, Darlin'. Just so long as a "a horse's ass" is not defined as anyone who disagrees with "my" point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 08:12 AM

It depends in what situation you are in and also whether you are alone in whatever action you decide to take. There was a situation as I was journeying to work this morning, the bus driver picked up an uncouth foulmouthed unreasonable (idiot) man who claimed the bus drove right past him and he had to run to catch it but this was impossible as the driver was at this particular pick-up point actually before his scheduled time and waiting. But there was no reasoning with the man at all and it could have turned really ugly, bearing in mind the driver had a bus load of people onboard who were on their way to their jobs that he had a responsibility to keep safe too. On this occasion he was right to say as little as possible for the short distance the man was going and probably report the incident later. The alternative was to refuse taking him altogether because of his bad language and attitude but then he was already aboard making a fuss, of course passengers just wanted to get to their destinations regardless of the principles of the thing so in turn remained silent.

- walk away
- remain silent *or as little as possible*
- respond in kind
- use violence
- use friendly verbal persuasion
- use threatening verbal persuasion
- use humorous verbal response
- etc.

What I really wanted to do was another thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: saulgoldie
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 09:13 AM

I intentionally meant "unreasonable" to be open to wide interpretation. The responses from 'Catters show how "reasonable" most of us are, most suggesting to just walk away from a dopey conversation (which is fine, as far as it goes).

I meant it from simply discussing, oh, say,
"Is there an FSM?" or
"What IS 'folk music?'" alltheway up to

"We are going to 'inform' large numbers of people with whatever we think are 'facts,' nevermind what they actually 'are.'" to
"We are going to make public policy for which your tax dollars are going to pay and we will use what we deem to be facts to make that policy, irrespective of what the facts actually are." to
"Not only do we 'know' you are wrong, but we are going to take your house, your horse, your land, and your life to prove it."

Leaving the conversation in the first two examples and going for beer (make mine Dogfish Head 90-minute IPA) or a pipe (Tinsky classic billiard with Maltese Falcon) is fine. But in the other encounters, the opponent/enemy forces the reasonable one to accept some degree of personal injury. Sooo, at what point does the reasonable one cock a fist or a trigger? That is my wondering.

And not to hijack "my own" thread. But this question also goes to the root of Libertarianism, which most people who today call themselves such would not recognize if it bit them on the nose, and when does "unreasonableness" become outright fraud or force?

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 09:28 AM

You could always test yourself out on this ...

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 10:13 AM

If you are threatened you can go into a defensive posture. If you are attacked you may d efend yourself with an appropriate degree of force, up to and including killing your attacked.

Better to walk away. "Sticks and stones" and all that. Later you can drop that brick on their head.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 10:16 AM

The bloke on the bus was worse than that but in the end he just made himself look ridiculous because he was on the bus that he wanted anyway so no problem, on the funny side he ended up having the bad language row with himself and for all that nonsense paid his fare and sat down which is what he should have done in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 10:35 AM

Sometimes you just have to replace an unreasonable person.
How you do that can be tricky.
For example CBS is planning to replace Charlie Sheen in the sitcom 'Two and one half men', with Mel Gibson.
Sometimes the devil you have to deal with is better than the next devil.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: jacqui.c
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 11:02 AM

Sometimes you have to agree to disagree - I've told that to people in the past and refused to discuss the matter further. Walking away is sometimes necessary, so is knowing that, whatever you say, it isn't going to change what is going to happen.

A few years ago the firm I worked for decided that they were going to relocate us from local offices, close to the homes of the majority of workers, to the City of London, which would mean longer commutes and more cost for everyone. as a cosmetic measure we were all invited, in small groups, for a 'discussion' with a senior manager, about the change. Now, for myself and one other in my group, after a basic discussion, we knew that this was a done deal and, no matter what was said we would either have to travel or resign. One woman, however, really thought that if she could get her point across to this guy she could change things. We all sat there for about three-quarters of an hour while they went through a very circular discussion on the merits of the scheme. Didn't change a thing.

I think the Nun's Prayer should be required learning for all.

On the 'Cat I try just to give my opinion and then let things ride, unless I have something relevant to add to the conversation. That's why I don't post so much. When people get abusive and rude, that's the time to bail out, walk away and just ignore it. At that point the discussion has become an argument and reason has gone.

In a physical situation caution is necessary. I would still try to walk away from someone behaving in an unreasonable manner. When I've had to do this the mantra is "If he doesn't attack me physically there's no problem, if he does I'll have him for assault". It has worked for me on a couple of occasions, once when I made a drunken guy put out the cigarette that he had lit up on a non smoking train. Sometimes we have to, at least, give the illusion of strength and it is surprising how that can work.

I have known for many years that I have a violent temper and have tried to make sure, mostly successfully, that I don't lose it. It is possible to control our behaviour, if we really want to.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 11:31 AM

What Janey said.. **grin**

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 01:54 PM

I know they're pulling the plug for this season, and Charlie's suing.
I didn't know they were considering replacing him with Mel Gibson.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 02:33 PM

"I didn't know they were considering replacing him with Mel Gibson. " cited by maple_leaf+boy

Frankly, I doubt that very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 06:25 PM

"I'm pretty sure that it's reasonable to assume that Donuel's post was a joke" was posted by nobody in particular. It was deleted for being anonymous in a BS thread, but I believe it's true and is what I'd say.

I think Mel and Charlie's careers are both currently flushable, although so far they've proven to be floaters.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 06:45 PM

"... currently flushable..."

Perhaps when they die, they'll be *interred* side-by-side.







Yes, yes...old limerick

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 05:38 AM

It also depends on the situation especially if there is a small child with you, you have to think twice about how a situation is handled. It teaches a child that not all adults are nice or perfect and also that it doesn't always pay to wind an unreasonable person up further, self preservation is an important lesson.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 11:03 AM

Here in England we used to have trouble with the Vikings. They used to murder, pillage and rape - not always in that order.

Counselling proved ineffective and so with some reluctance we settled upon a policy of evisceration and nailing to church doors.
Very little problem ever since.

In places like Yorkshire and Dublin, where they were allowed ashore, you still find certain truculent vestiges of the Vikings' unfortunate manner amongst the general population.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 11:57 AM

The Romans were the same way as Vikings.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 02:02 PM

Mel was to be cast for "The Hangover 2". He was cut, because cast and
crew members didn't want him there. But, he's cast for a movie called
"The Beaver." Even though his rants which included racial slurs have
been exposed, and he may be unreasonable; he is a good story-teller/
director/actor. He puts a lot of passion into his work. He probably
has bi-polar disorder. That's what some people would say. Charlie Sheen has a personality disorder along with drug addiciton/withdrawal which causes him to be pompous and unreasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 06:52 PM

On the other hand - perhaps one of them is a racist asshole, and the other is pompous and unreasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: Janie
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 07:05 PM

*grin*

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 11:48 PM

...Well, certainly not by trying to reason with them...

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: LadyJean
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 12:33 AM

My dad was a lawyer. He taught me how to handle an argument. Stick to your guns. Staight your facts calmly and clearly. Do not back down. Above all, DO NOT LOSE YOUR TEMPER. You don't think clearly when you're angry.
I can't always do it, but when I can, it works.

Never argue with a drunk. It's a waste of oxygen. Treat a drunk like a very large toddler.

I used to clean for a female who threatened to fire me every time she had a bad day at work. She wasn't home when I cleaned. She didn't see what I did when she was out. What she didn't know didn't hurt her. Chortle! I only regret that I never told her that she had a snake under her back porch.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with 'Unreasonable' People
From: EBarnacle
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 03:42 PM

Sounds like she had a snake inside her skin, too.