BS: A Female Archbishop

Subject: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 08:47 AM

English females should not, e.g., be allowed to get cauliflower ears from playing rugby, but they should be allowed to work as priests and, indeed, become the Archbishop of Canterbury, within our Church of England.

The BBC reported today that several C. of E. members have gone to Roman Catholicism, because they hate the idea of the latter - they are wrong, as is imperialism of any kind.

Thus, both the imperialistic Anglican and Roman Catholic movements should be dissolved, and replaced with a Church of Italy only, a Church of Germany only, a Church of England only (complete with female priests), etc.; or in verse - http://walkaboutsverse.webs.com/#219.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 11:30 AM

"... should be dissolved, and replaced with ..."

And would YOU like to organize and explain that little project? ☺

They would fight for 40 years just about who gets to be on the committee....

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 11:43 AM

English females should not, e.g., be allowed to get cauliflower ears from playing rugby

Not that old chestnut again, David? Who's doing the allowing here - men? Tell that to our local women's rugby team and see what you get!

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 12:49 PM

"English females should not, e.g., be allowed to get cauliflower ears from playing rugby"

Considering how this year's Womens Six Nations is going, it would give the others a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM

I have no problem at all with a female, e.g., reading a lesson at choral evensong; on the other hand, I found the brief highlights of the abovemention Women's Six Nations, e.g., revolting.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: s&r
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 01:48 PM

Which only goes to prove that you have something seriously wrong David.

I despair that someone who claims an education, and a moral stance, and a nationality that is tolerant and caring, should continue to post such hectoring, sexist, homophobic, patronizing and generally valueless and incorrect irritating drivel.

Get a real education cobber

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 01:58 PM

I do have a problem with female bishops - but just the bishop part! We should never have allowed that feudal relic to creep back into the Church of England. Why should so many of them sit unelected in the House of Lords. As the number of 'coal face' clergy has diminished, the number of bishops seems to have increased. Our Team Rector looks after ten churches (more to be added) in big rural parishes with only two curates and one of those is semi-retired; he has no paid clerical help. Each of these churches would have had a vicar/rector plus a curate a century ago. Yet in the diocese there are three bishops, with secretaries, drivers, gardeners etc etc. Talk about all chiefs and no indians!

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 01:58 PM

What sort of person - man or woman wants a job like that?

Standing round, listening to hymns, a funny walking stick, a funny hat, wearing a sort of ceremonial nightie, occasionally saying something holy.....I realise the money's probably all right, but its not enough to keep the mind alive really, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:08 PM

Stu: that's akin to saying that, unlike me, you don't accept female priests but do accept females playing one of the roughest most-injury-prone sports.

Then you resort to "Get a real education cobber," which is akin to some of what you just falsely accused me of.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:13 PM

Oh WAV, grow a pair for chrissake.

Tell him, Bollocks mate! I'll stick to my unreal education!

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: s&r
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:21 PM

Women are independent human beings. I have no problem with the sports they play, I don't care if they preach or run a church. It's not for me or you to tell them they can't.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:51 PM

Church of Italy only, a Church of Germany only, a Church of England only

Thank you, but no. Religion has been in bed with nationalism and with national government far too often, and it hasn't been healthy.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:54 PM

Do you think Roman Catholic and Anglican imperialism have been healthy, Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:29 PM

I think a bit of divergent thinking is called for.

Accordingly i think the nest Archbishop of Canterbury should be CHERYL COLE. She made a fantastic job of being a judge on the Xfactor and I think someone with her pleasant personality is just what the job needs.

I mean, can you imagine Cheryl on the Bishop's throne - wearing one of those really short skirts? I reckon the congregation would hanging on her every word.

I tell you, I wouldn't mind going up and kissing her ring.

We could be all sitting there a bit bored with all the sermons and canticles. And Cheryl could say, Right lads - we're having a five minute commercial break where I demonstrate items from my latest lingerie collection. I call this thong....April in New York.

Then we could have a few more hymns and then maybe Cheryl could introduce some other young talented friends in showbiz that she's mentoring - and we could have a wet surplice competition.

I believe its time for innovation in this field.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:33 PM

Cheryl wouldn't get bored with my canticles, I can tell you. By gum, they've seen some service!

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:44 PM

...Can almost feel The Venerable Bede turning in his grave.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Smokey.
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:45 PM

It would encourage forepart harmony.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:46 PM

Wasn't there a female Pope in Lexx Series 4?

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 05:30 PM

The word "imperialism" should only be used in a context where it is appropriate. It is not relevant or appropriate in this context or in that of rugby.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 06:22 PM

The episcopal system in the Christian Church was adopted when it became assimilated into the Roman Empire - the title 'Pontiff' dates back at least to the time (and person) of Caesar Augustus. Amongst the intruction that were given to the translators of the Authorised Version by Jamie the Saxt was that liturgical terms (as used in the Bishops' Bible) were to be retained, rather than the possibly more accurate translations in other versions. Jamie, of course, was a great believer in the 'Divine Right of Kings' and the episcopal system of church government.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Sandy (lost cookie)
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 12:31 AM

Firstly the head of the Anglican church is Queen Elizabeth (a woman), not the Archbishop of Canterbury(a man) who is her deputy. A few years back when Lizzie tried to appoint a new Archbishop of Canterbury(a man) she was overruled by PM Maggie (a woman, perhaps) who felt that it was her jurisdiction to appoint a different Archbishop of Canterbury (a man.) While I have some grudging respect for Lizzie I think Maggie was an arsehole and I have not darkened the door of the Anglican church since!

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: J-boy
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 12:42 AM

A female Archbishop? Why not? Just one more person in a collar I won't listen to.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 12:52 AM

WAV asks: Do you think Roman Catholic and Anglican imperialism have been healthy, Joe?

Of course not, David. Allow me to quote myself: Religion has been in bed with nationalism and with national government far too often, and it hasn't been healthy.

Most other nations don't seem to understand or accept the American concept of "separation of church and state." You can find all kinds of things wrong with the U.S., but I think that one concept is a very good one. It allows both religion and government a chance to maintain some semblance of integrity, without coopting the Deity to support the Government - or vice-versa. It's one reason why religion is in a much better state in the US than it is in many other nations - because it isn't an arm of government. Oh, we have our fair share of religious lunatics and child molesters and whatnot, but at least the lunatics aren't working hand-in-hand with government - and vice-versa.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: banjoman
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:43 AM

As a Catholic for more than 60 years, I am apalled at what seems to me to be an adaptation of rules to suit individuals. I personally have no problem with the ordination of women and would welcome it in our church. I would also like to see the ancient rule of celibacy abolished as it now seems that a lot of those moving to the RC church may be married with children. So why not one rule for all?

I believe that my faith is not in what I think of as the Church Temporal which was constructed by Man (mainly men) but rather in the teaching of an honest and truthful person who lived on earth 2000 years ago and who never condoned pomp and ceremoney or the exclusion of any person based on gender - the church has lost sight of that simple message over the years and I (along with many others) pray for the day that their vision is restored - what a better place this world would be

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 06:07 AM

Q: What do you get if you cross a Jehovah's Witness with a Unitarian?

A: Someone who knocks on your door for no reason.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Allan Conn
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 06:33 AM

"Which only goes to prove that you have something seriously wrong David."

I've not really witnesses the female version of the 15 a side game but I've seen several 7 a side tournaments and there were some really 'fit' females playing :-)

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 09:23 AM

In my days at Longbenton (DHSS computer centre) we had some heavy duty packs of paper, and the only operator able to lift them was an ex corporal in the WRAC.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 09:37 AM

I admire her for taking it on but I would rather slave away over a pc keyboard anyday.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 11:33 AM

Can almost feel The Venerable Bede turning in his grave

He does it twice daily, WAV - noon & midnight; press your ear to his tomb and you can hear him do it, not because of female rugby players or Archbishops though, rather because of the Anglican occupation of his Romanesque Norman cathedral which was built to the Glory of the Church of Rome which both Bede and Cuthbert before him (he turns at quarter past noon so you can easily made it!) were well into. And whilst you're in the Galilee Chapel, ponder the Islamic influence going down; and be sure to check out the wee stone near the entrance marked with the initials JB. Thereunder lie the bones of Joseph Boruwlaski, The Polish Count whose dimuninutive effects may be seen in the town hall, including his wee fiddle. Read about him HERE.

Here's a thing, WAV - If you took away all the different cultural influences, immigrations & invasions that make up our Englishness what would be left? Nothing I can readily think of for sure. Even at our most English we are the consequence of the multi-cultural diversity that has shaped our nation since the retreat of the last ice-age.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 12:25 PM

Absolutely. Couldn't have put it better myself. And this is why it could be the year for Cheryl Cole to get her hands on the bishopric.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 03:25 PM

There are those who would say she deserves a handsome stipend.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 03:46 PM

I wouldn't say that Cuthbert was well into the Church of Rome. It does appear that he accepted Roman usages after the Synod of Whitby, but this has more to do with political necessity than an enthusiasm for foreign practices.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 04:35 PM

It's all superstitious mumbo jumbo anyway. So for all I care, you can make a monkey an archbishop, or has that already been done?
Goodness knows I loathe football as much as I do religion, but at least football is real, albeit not short of myths and legends either.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 04:57 PM

Well, there's already bean a Pope Joan so why not?

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 02:52 PM

The opening line of this thread looks to me like a serious attempt to commit suicide.

". . . females should not be allowed to. . . ."

You're not married, nor do you know many women, do you, Walkies?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 04:03 AM

Cheryl - doesn't she look great in red - perhaps she should be a cardinal first.



http://www.bigalwhittle.co.uk/id53.html

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: s&r
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:42 AM

Al.... Cheryl Cole in lingerie... your song needs a health warning

Can,t deal with it

Age creeps up on me

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 01:13 PM

Cheryl Cole is rich and famous from putting her time and talent into an aspect of American culture - pop; whilst there are several other young English ladies, struggling to earn a living, who have, probably, put just as much time and talent into English folk - or, indeed, preaching (whatever they may think of "Walkies", Don!).

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: s&r
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:43 PM

Another bigoted ant-American post. She sings and speaks with a decided geordie twang - and if she doesn't, so what. Pop is of course international - it;s only in your head it's not.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 07:33 PM

Who's Cheryl Cole? How many tries has she scored? And for whom?

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 08:54 PM

the title 'Pontiff' dates back at least to the time (and person) of Caesar Augustus.

Well, you DID say "at least", so to that extent you're not wrong. But that title existed in Roman religious hierarchy for quite some time before Augustus.

For one, Augustus' adopted father, Julius Caesar, was not only Pontiff but Supreme Pontiff (Pontifex Maximus)of Rome (along with other offices). And that position was definitely not new at that time.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 05:47 AM

I think most of us wouldn't mind giving her a try...

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: BTNG
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 04:55 PM

Would I be wrong in assuming that WalkaboutsVerse has read the Historia Ecclesiastica Gentis Anglorum (begging your pardon, your honour for not using the English tongue) from beginning to end? I think I just answered my own question.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM

...so that's what Alan meant, just above you BTNG - cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 05:14 PM

I didn't understand the question you asked, or the answer you answered yourself with.

WAV gets funny ideas. One time he started a thread trying to prove that folksongs didn't have chords. This was news to the American contingent - half of whom had published folksong books with chords.

Another time , he reckoned we'd all been corrupted by non English non folksongs.

Whilst he may have got these ideas from a latin book - I feel it would be unfair to blame the Romans, for a totally original thinker like WAV.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: BTNG
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 05:21 PM

WAV referenced Bede a few posts back and the Historia Ecclesiastica Gentis Anglorum (Ecclesiastical History of the English People) is his master work, apparently WAV has not read this either in the originally Latin nor in English translation ans no, I was not referring to Cheryl Cole in anyway shape or form, WAV, so get back ontrack

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 05:41 PM

Joking apart, then: I have a (now dusty) Penguin copy, BTNG, and read part of it about a decade ago.

Alan: that "Chords in Folk?" thread eventually (and I was by no means Defoe's Crusoe) concluded "with the understanding that English folk-music, for centuries, has entertained people via, mostly, the repetition of tunes, in both song and dance: more-sophisticated polyphony and chords being found, rather, in church and court - eventually, i.e" (here).

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: s&r
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 07:37 PM

WAV can you (and if so will you) rewrite that last line in your adopted English please?

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 05:52 AM

How did the old Chords in Folk? thread conclude? Well, the last sentence (16th October 2008) is He's so ignorant I think he's a liar as well as a fool. One can only agree that talking to the perpetrator is rather akin to banging one's head on brick wall. Why bother?

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:04 AM

Out of curiosity

Suibhne Astray - how you pronouncing that?

Lay off WAV though. His ideas may be odd. However he wants to be a poet. Its not like he wants to be s serial killer, or something. Thinking strange thoughts is allowed.

Indeed some would think laughable my idea of Cheryl Cole being the nsxt Archbishop of Canterbury. I think she'd be great - doing guest spots in The Vicar of Dibley and occasionally saying it was a pity that poor people are starving. I mean, can't you imagine her in see thru mini vestments and leopard skin dog collar?

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: s&r
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:45 AM

Al

He wants to be God

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:58 AM

Re. your last 2 posts, Stu: God knows, gobbledygook has it's place.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM

"Its", sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM

Yeh....

I wanted to be a folksinger. life has many bitter lessons in store for all of us.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:33 AM

Why did you want to be a folksinger, Al? I never suffered that delusion. I just wanted to be a musician and to see where that took me. It took me down many varied and interesting paths, but bitterness was never an outcome of music.

Perhaps I've just been lucky - or blessed with really low horizons!

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:41 AM

Pronounced Sweeney; the full moniker is Suibhne O'Piobaireachd which is simply Sweeney O' Pibroch, a name I first employed in the letters page of Folk Roots twenty years back. Pibroch is the Classical music of the highland bagpipes which has enchanted me since I was a child; and Sweeney Astray is Seamus Heaney's trabslation of the ancient Irish literary epic of literature of prose & poetry Buile Suibhne which is well worth a read in any translation, even those that figure in Flann O'Brien's masterful At Swim Two Birds. Also Glen Sweeney was the drummer and inspiration of the Third Ear Band, who have inspired me now since the years of my childhood and so so today.

Otherwise I am Sean Breadin, aka Sedayne.

*

As for WAV, I know him personally and react to him here in good sport (I hope!) for his tireless & tedious promotion of his Conclusions and Life's Work which sadly came to an end a decade ago at least. What he says I find marginally less offensive than his refusal to face the facts and erudition on offer at Mudcat & elsewhere. Whatever the case, I openly welcome his humanity just as I openly encourage his participation in singarounds because to me Come All Ye has no exceptions. Besides, I think WAV enjoys the occasional purge, be it from me or Stu, who, like me, wouldn't bother if deep down they didn't care.

If WAV wants to live life by courting celebrity via an unchanging aura of self-righteuosness and fruitless proselytisation that's his choice. Like most people here I hold by the dictum that the more you learn, the more you realise the the more there is still to learn - and the process of one's Life's Work doesn't end until one's life does - and too soon at any rate. WAV believes in both God and Culture - I believe in neither, feeling that both are illusions consequent on what human individuals do by way of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. When they (God / Culture) become defined by Orthodoxy & Tradition then maybe that's the time to worry, although I also accept that Tradition is Mutable, being determind by what has gone before - for example the glories of Bitches Brew should be heard in relation to the Hot Fives recordings, though each tree has many, many branches and we'll never get the full picture, but it's fun rooting around. Fun? Serious as your life.

That people do whatever they are moved to do is both Right and Good, but when people start promoting Righteousness and Orthodoxy then I'm going to react simply because there are too many alternatives on offer. I love Morris Dancing, Folklore, Folk Music and Folk Song, but I refuse to accept the Orthodoxy that all often attends their practise as being anything else other than Wonky Religiosity. As with Religion, they can't all be right, but they can all be wrong - which isn't to devalue the experience of the individual believer or practitioner, just caution them when it comes to knocking on doors (or minds) to spread their particular truth.

Life is sweet; life is also short - way too short - and you're a long time dead. Do what thy wilt so that others may do so too. Eat, drink and be Merry for tomorrow we die.

Now, do I press submit or not? Choices, choices...

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: s&r
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:53 AM

Dear
Folksinger Al,

If you don't rate yourself as a folksinger, I do. The link is to a random song of Al's on his website. Some sincere ideas and guitar playin to die for

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: s&r
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:04 AM

I wish I had your fluency Sean - my English is by its nature a little pithier. But you're quite right, I applaud WAV's efforts in many directions.

With his obvious wish to be a singer/poet/musician/authority etc I find it surprising that he bites the hand (the Mudcat community) that would feed him.

I have learnt so much from Mudcat since I bought a T-shirt. There are many whose erudition, skill, talent and experience leave me in awe. After forty years in folk music I still learn from this forum. I am an inveterate reader even when not posting.

WAV listen to the people that would help you.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:06 AM

Right on, Stu - but no doubt WAV'll be along presently to mutter about being patronised and give us the usual CV of certificates in tying his shoelaces and travelling the world on a forklift truck...

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:28 AM

...rather, who agrees that the movement toward equality for females within the C. of E. is a good think?

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 11:19 AM

Hmmmm - I'm dismayed at the innate sexism of religion and I can't see what's wrong with woman Bishops, Priests, Popes, Vicars, or whatever just as long as they cherish the historical treasures in their keeping and keep their supertitious mumbo-jumbo to themselves. Personally, I'd like to see all our historic churches & cathedrals run by the Government by way of heritage centres and museums. I'd also force any religious order to abide by Secular laws of equal opportunities or else see their silly institutions outlawed. Any public expression of religious faith would be a punishable offence, and anyone knocking on doors to spread the word would be forced to do extreme penance by way of good works in the community which they'd be better off doing anyway. I'd also replace Songs of Praise with something that reflects the multiplicity of faiths in Britain today, either that or side-line it onto Radio Two along with Folk on 2 and The Organist Entertains and leave the telly free for something worthwhile to my native culture & the spirituality thereof, like re-runs of Bilko and Top Cat which would be far better for the soul of our nation.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 11:36 AM

re-runs of Bilko

Why is it you never see Bilko on UK TV these days? At least not on the Freeview range of channels. Wonderful programme - and live for most of its broadcast life.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: s&r
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 11:44 AM

Come on Will - our own English Freeview should not be used for reruns of American soaps

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 11:49 AM

Blast you, Stu - I'd forgotten all about the proper uses for our "good English Freeview"!

I've just been playing "Enrico" on my fiddle. Great tune - in Thomas Hardy's tune book as well - shame it's got a damnable foreign sound to the title...

Actually, I'd heard that TH renamed it "Jacob" in his book notes. Spooky or what?

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 11:55 AM

Don't worry Will, it appears in a Sussex manuscript as Henry Coe. Don't know if he was a relative of Pete's.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 12:05 PM

Bless you, dear Snail - so glad to know I'm probably playing a good English tune after all. Mind you - my fiddle parts were made in a small workshop in China before being sent to be assembled and set up in a swish workshop in California. What was I thinking of when I bought it, eh? Perhaps - the sound...

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 12:37 PM

CHRISTIAN, n.

One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin.

Ambrose Bierce

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 12:41 PM

My 5-string violin is Chinese, one of these ornamental pie-crust Baroque jobs bought off ebay very cheaply. Once our man in Blackpool set it up right it plays very nice indeed though I reserve it mostly for the Weird Stuff and call it The Accursed Viol after H.P Lovecraft's The Music of Erich Zann. My 4-string is German, 1920s, via Blackpool, though it sounds unnaturally bright without the Dunlop rubber mute. In my heart its sound is very like the late Maurice Gosfield (obit 1964) who played Doberman in Bilko and did the voice for Benny the Ball in Top Cat (30 episodes September 1961 to April 1962).

No Bilko anywhere on Freeview just now. Maybe we should have a Bilko Watch permathread? Phil Mitchell (from EastEnders) often watched Bilko, thus humanising his character in my eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 12:48 PM

I've just ordered a s/h book which I read as a teenager - 50 years before acquiring a violin. It's Edward Heron-Allen's "Violin making as it was and is" - a reprint of the 1885 2nd edition. I recall being fascinated by it when I read it - and I'm looking forward to being fascinated a second time round.

Not a lot to do with female Archbishops, but Bilko and violins are far more interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 05:13 PM

There's lots of Bilko on YouTube, for them as is interested.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:08 PM

Thankyou for the nice comment on my song, Will. Self knowledge forces me to conclude though, the folksinger thing didn't work out. whatever was necessary - I didn't have it.

I think I wanted to be a folksinger, from some time in the 1970's when I heard derek Brimstone tell the one about stopping in different peoples houses amd everyone had the same books - the bleedin'Hobbit and Watership Down is creeping in.

I though that must be great to have an aware and hip audience who got jokes about tolkien. However sometime after that - the hip audience pissed off and left us with what we are left with. I remember seeing one of Derek's last gigs at The Pokey Hole near leicester and saying to jack Hudson, also in the audience - You know I don't envy Derek this audience one little bit.

I spent most of my time gigging for the working class audiences - pubs, working mens clubs, country and western clubs, Irish pubs and old peoples homes. I don't regret it - it was a privilege to entertain people. But it wasn't what i set out to do.

WAV has some bloody weird ideas, but so do most of the major poets. Auden wrote his biggest hits when he thought Stalin was alright, and that pubescent german boys forced into homosexual prostitution were there for his gratification.

As Alan bennet said of Louis MacNeice - he was too normal. he never made a fool of himself over communism or boys. And if you never go overboard about something - you tend not to make too much of a splash.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:45 AM

Interesting biog, Al. I've also spent the best part of 45+ years of playing in pubs and clubs and for functions - blues, jazz, rock'n roll, '60s Memphis funk, 1920s dance band music, folk clubs, traditional tunes for ceilidhs. I've only ever played what I've wanted to play. If the music became boring or being played by rote, with no soul to it, I changed tack and went on to something else. Underneath all that was an abiding love in traditional tunes and the guitar and mandolin. So I dipped in and out of folk clubs as the mood took me - but I've never ever called myself a folksinger.

I recall booking Derek Brimstone for the BBC Folk Club (Clanfolk) back in the late '60s. A fascinating and unique character - and one of the first people I ever saw playing Paul MCartney's "Blackbird" in a folk club!

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:04 AM

Tonight on BBC2 (UK) there begins a two part series on the Bible's Buried Secrets which looks as if it could be credible - written & presented by the aethiest theologian Dr Francesca Stavrakopoulou. Part two looks at the belief in Asherah - God's wife indeed.

The sexism of Christianity begins with Eve I suppose; those attitudes are alive and well and are as depressing to me as racism. That we still have a Christian Church in 2011 is mystifying and depressing too, and my general respect for religious belief is pushed to the limits by the beliefs and traditions themselves. In Blackburn Cathedral the other week I unwittingly attended the rehearsal for Choral Evensong (photographing the old Whalley Abbey misericords circa. 1430 & some of the finest medieval vernacular sculture in the region - especially the scene depicting The Fall). When the priest / cantor proclaimed "I believe in God..." at the beginning of the Creed it was with such an obnoxious pompousness that I muttered in response "So what do you want? A fucking Chufty Badge?" for which blasphemy I was cautioned by my nearest and dearest.

But who cares what anyone believes in? The older I get the more concerned I am with appreciating what is actual & common rather than the mumbo-jumbo of personal belief. As WAV will remind us, I am no academic, but I can dig the idea of a Atheist Theologian even though my wife has a degree in Theology but turned her back on it by becoming a nurse to better experience the core of her personal faith. I regularly rip into religious door-knockers and proselytisers because such ideas are the foundation of the seeping unenlightenment in which sexism and racism thrives. Likewise the belief in Culture and Heritage, which are only as real as the individual wants them to be. We each have our ideals of LL&TPOH; but the WAV-way (and God knows he's not alone in this!) tends towards the myth that there is such a thing as a quantifiable English Culture which is utter nonsense. English Culture is the sum total of the Cultural Experience of the individuals living in England right now - and that's something you just can't get your head around.

*

Musically I never set out to be folk singer - I am an experimental free-improviser & storyteller seduced along the way by the beauties of Traditional Folk Song and Balladry. Storytelling audiences (by which I mean mixed punters of kids, parents, families in a freezing woodland rather than mystical turned-on new-agers in an arts centre) dig a spooky old ballad as part of the entertainment; free-improv audiences (count 'em on one hand) likewise; but Folk Audiences can be a bit precious about such things, often uptight, like Christians expecting a preacher to confirm their assumptions...

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:14 AM

Dr Francesca Stavrakopoulou....its easy for you to say that!

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:35 AM

I copied it out the Radio Times; but it would have been quicker cutting & pasting it from HERE. Should prove intersting to the Christian sexists who assume you can't be beautiful and hold an impressive CV. And half-Greek too! Looking forward to it...

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:37 AM

...she is now writing a book about the corpse and its social and religious impacts upon the living.   

Sounds like my kinda gal. Wonder if she's talking about Folk Music?

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:48 PM

S: I enjoyed that Blackburn Cathedral Evensong on BBC R3 (Wed. and Sunday at 4PM); I found it similarly calming and clever, in the use of the voices of organ and choir, to those at Newcastle and Durham Cathedral - how about you? Also, I wrote a simple travel-poem on Blackburn Cathedral - http://walkaboutsverse.webs.com/#125.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 05:28 AM

It was lovely being in Blackburn Cathedral during the rehearsal for Choral Evensong - the choir were pretty amazing so it was nice listening to them on Radio 3 on the drive home. Probably a bit modern for my tastes, but the sound in the cathedral was rich, full & faultless - a nice background to taking photographs of the medieval misericords which reside there.

*

Did anyone see Dr Francesca Stavrakopoulou last night? That's the sort of clear headed analysis that makes me smile - and angry that women are held as being somehow inferior by the Christian Church. Most likely this is out of extreme fear and inadequecy on the part of Christian men and their pathetic paternalistic hierarchies which never really get us anywhere, alas. I'm told the Roman Catholic church has set up some sort of sanctuary for disenchanted Anglican sexists who feel the ongoing oppression & suppression of women is somehow justified.

Nice that the Blackburn Choir was mixed; as humanity is mixed, and equal. But even some Anglican churches wouldn't accept a female vicar, let alone Archbishop - and on this they feel justified!

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 05:42 AM

The early Church had women in all positions. It was only after it became assimilated into the Roman Empire that they were banned.

A friend of mine was joint Moderator (with another woman) of the United Reformed Church a couple of years ago. Not the first to hold the position by a long chalk.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 06:39 AM

The early Church had women in all positions.

Has to be the best line to have come out of Mudcat in a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:05 AM

Sorry about that. My self-editing abilities only kick in at the first cup of coffee.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:37 AM

Even so I don't think history should be relied on for a precedent, fascinating though it is. I spend a lot of time raking around medieval carvings in churches & cathedrals but I doubt I'd agree with the people who made them, much less those that paid for them, no more than I agree with the custodians of such places today. On one hand I respect belief, on another I can't respect any belief based on disrespect and manifests pure and purposeful ignorance in the midst of a hard won (though far from perfect) secular enlightenment. Whatever people believed in the past is no excuse for them behaving like idiots today. Unfortunately human beings will use the past (or their version of it) as an excuse for all manner of atrocity, including the institionalised sexism which is the subject of this thread.

So - a big yes to women priest, Archbishops or whatever, even though I might wonder why anyone would bother.

Meanwhile: The Roman Catholic Church was going to extraordinary lengths to make it easy for disenchanted Anglicans to convert to Catholicism.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 02:56 PM

'a big yes to women priest, Archbishops or whatever, even though I might wonder why anyone would bother.'

I think theres something pretty sexy about those clerical collars on a woman - all those impure thoughts that never occur to them....! Its almost an incitement to lustful and filthy longings and loose living, I have found.

I won't say they're asking for it, but.........phwoooar!

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 02:56 PM

I'll watch that BBC programme via the iPlayer thanks, S. - I was out enjoying poetry readings last night and, earlier, at Evensong, where both the first lesson/Old Testament and second lesson/New Testament were read by a female canon.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:34 PM

I won't say they're asking for it, but.........phwoooar!

In the later episodes of Vicar of Dibley she was shown as being quite raunchy. Is that typical I wonder? Shame it was crap anyway. The best religious comedy (after Father Ted which nailed the Catholic paranoia of women perfectly) was Rev, which wasn't too pious in its depiction of an inner city parish & its hapless incumbent. I love Phil Rickman's folk-friendly Merrily Watkins novels, in which a woman priest is single-mum with a pagan daughter and a folk singing boyfriend as well as holding down the position of being the Diocesan Exorcist for Hereford Cathedral, and fighting crime in her spare time. Sexy or what? She reminds me a lot of the woman priest from Boscastle in A Seaside Parish a few years ago, which also had its folky moments.

read by a female canon.

You get women doing readings in Catholic Churches - and assisting at Holy Communion. In fact in many parishes (Anglican too) it's the women who keep the churches going - and yet bizarrely would probably be the first to oppose the ordination of women priests!

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:57 PM

FWIW, the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church of the United States (Anglican) is a woman, Katharine Jefferts Schori.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:07 AM

Women rev-ved up to join clergy in Lancashire - and yet in my home town even the one woman minster there is (Methodist) is reportedly kept in her place by collective church prejudice! Hardly the wonder Christianity's dying out - my worry though is not for congregations, but the fabric of these historic buildings which are of far greater importance to our national culture than personal belief.

As someone responded to the above linked article:

Unfortunately many worshipping people cannot accept the idea of women priests. This is not a matter of "man's superiority over women" It is a matter that Jesus Christ was a man and that a man should administer the sacrament and not a woman. I firmly believe that this is true and I could never accept a woman priest for that simple reason. I repeat, it is not prejudice against women. It is for the reason I have tried to explain in the simplest terms.

The discussion that follows is an intesting one, but weirdly out of place is a world of equal opportunities, though I'm increasingly alarmed and depressed at how endemic such overt ignorance and sexism is in our society - racism likewise. It's any excuse isn't it?

Thing is though, many think of God as She, and there's a sound notion that Jesus could have been not only a Woman, but also in Her relationship with Mary Magdalene, a Lesbian too... I'm cool with that.

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:39 AM

'I'm cool with that.....'

Yeh if they let you watch, you might be described as a Jehovah's witness

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:52 AM

Biblical Sapphic Porn! Now there's a gap in the market...

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 07:03 AM

"I commend to you Phoebe, a fellow-Christian who is minister in the church at Cenchreae".       Romans 16v1 (REB)

Subject: RE: BS: A Female Archbishop
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:12 AM

'Phoebe, a fellow-Christian who is minister in the church at Cenchreae'

Phoebe's the girl that I commend
Cheers up Christian lads no end
better than the regular vicars
Says the prayers, then shows her knickers!