BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 11 - 03:30 PM

Reuters) - U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon on Monday hailed Osama bin Laden's death as a key turning point in the world's struggle against terrorism.

"The death of Osama bin Laden, announced by President (Barack) Obama last night, is a watershed moment in our common global fight against terrorism," Ban told reporters.

U.S. officials said late on Sunday that bin Laden had been killed in a U.S. assault on his Pakistani compound on Monday, then quickly buried at sea.

"The crimes of al Qaeda touched most continents, bringing tragedy and loss of life to thousands of men, women and children," Ban said.

"This is a day to remember the victims and families of victims here in the United States and everywhere in the world," he added.

The written version of Ban's reaction included several remarks that were not included in the statement he made to reporters on camera. The additional comments made clear that Ban felt the U.S. targeting of bin Laden was just.

"Personally, I am very much relieved by the news that justice has been done to such a mastermind of international terrorism," Ban said in the emailed text of his statement.

"I would like to commend the work and the determined and principled commitment of many people in the world who have been struggling to eradicate international terrorism," he added.

(Reporting by Louis Charbonneau; Editing by Paul Simao)

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 May 11 - 03:55 PM

GfS-

I think myself a peaceful person but I agree with you that shooting Bib Laden, armed or not, was the better call than taking him prisoner. It's not the morally correct call but it's politically efficient.

Now maybe Obama can focus on getting our troops our of Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention creating more jobs for the unemployed.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 May 11 - 03:55 PM

In 1991, Iraq invaded Kuwait with the aim of appropriating and taking control of their oil resources. The United States, acting in Kuwait's behalf, repelled the Iraqi invader and drove them out and back into their own country. The United States "invaded" Iraq only in a very loose sense of the word "invade."

International Law recognizes "the Right of Hot Pursuit." This permits a nation or law enforcement agency to pursue wrong-doers, whether they are private criminals (such as, say, pirates) or the retreating armed forces of a hostile country across national borders without it being construed as an "invasion" as such.

Discovering the location of a wanted international criminal and entering another country to get him falls under the "hot pursuit" clause of International Law, and although the host country may bellow like a goosed moose, it does not constitute an "invasion," provided the pursuers withdraw once the criminal is dealt with. Especially if there is some suspicion that the country may actually be sheltering the criminal and denying it, while claiming to cooperate.

"It's in the book!"
             —Doodles Weaver

The actual invasion of Iraq, declared by the Bush Administration in response (according to Bush) to the 9/11 attack and Iraq's alleged stockpiling of weapons of mass destruction (which turned out not to exist), was an invasion. But obviously that did not occur until some time after September 11, 2001

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 May 11 - 04:05 PM

/// josepp

I'm sure you know what Kendall meant. You constant prattling on about who invaded whom is worse than useless. Fact is Osama DID complain about "invasion" of his holy lands. "Invasion" was his choice of words Whether he meant, Arabia, or all of the Middle East or every Arab land was not made clear. Why don't you go argue with him?

By the way. I'd tell you just how I thought about how you were acting. But if I said you were acting like and asshole you would probably tell me that "Websters" defines you as dickhead.   

Also, I liked the comments about the neighbors. I like the Muslims I have met. I agree with your point of view on that issue.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 May 11 - 04:07 PM

Don-Babes, I think you hit it on the head!!!

Oh, and as an addendum to my last post, I think they should release the photos, with OBL pecker cut off, and stuffed in his mouth, and his body wrapped in pig shit. Maybe that would send a message to any other would be radical Muslim terrorists!!!

...Respectfully,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 May 11 - 04:12 PM

Oh, and with a caption for the photo, "This awaits ALL Muslim terrorists who we capture, or kill in action!!"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bobert
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:05 PM

I will be the first to admit that I have not had time to follow the story as close as I'd like but I had to drive into town and had NPR on and NPR reported that bin Laden was unarmed when he was shot...

Anyone have the facts???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bill D
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:11 PM

GfS... you sure have some 'interesting' suggestions ...


..that would ASSURE new terrorist recruits and jihads for years to come. Why don't you just threaten to bomb Mecca? Or something equally asinine...

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:11 PM

Invasion is a word, not a verdict regarding whether it is justified or not. It means one country's military forces enter into another country without the consent of the invaded country. It may be followed by an occupation or by a withdrawal or retreat.

For example, France was invaded in 1949, and Germany was invaded in 1945.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:13 PM

The word I heard was that bin Laden was found in an upstairs room. There was a woman with him (not necessarily "in flagrante delicto"). He was told to surrender and come quietly. He grabbed the woman to use her as a shield and was reaching for a weapon when the raiders opened fire, trying carefully to avoid wounding the woman and hitting him twice in the head.

That was the report that I heard. Your mileage may vary.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:27 PM

McG. I think you meant that France was invaded in 1939.
What about the Bruneval raid 1942?
Was that an invasion of France too?
Dieppe 1942?
St. Nazaire 1942?
No.
They were raids, not to be compared with invasions like that of 1939 and 1944.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:28 PM

It is now officially admitted that ObL was unarmed.

This is the day civilisation ended.

There is now no rule of law or safety of life.

What has been established is that the US will kill who it likes, where it likes, when it likes, without trial and without any pretext of self defence.

Welcome to the wild West.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bobert
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:31 PM

Hmmmmm???

So bib Laden was wrestling with a woman and trying to retrieve a weapon at the same time???

Something fishy here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:36 PM

Nope. His wife trued to rush the US soldiers and was shot but not fatally.

ObL was double-tapped, once in the head and once in the chest.

Come in peace (?) , shoot to kill.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: andrew e
Date: 03 May 11 - 05:57 PM

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr.

None of us know the "truth". Only what we're told, which can change
from day to day.

http://www.kingofhits.co.uk/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=65&func=view&catid=2&id=70152

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 May 11 - 06:35 PM

Don-

"The word I heard was that bin Laden was found in an upstairs room. There was a woman with him (not necessarily "in flagrante delicto"). He was told to surrender and come quietly. He grabbed the woman to use her as a shield and was reaching for a weapon when the raiders opened fire, trying carefully to avoid wounding the woman and hitting him twice in the head."

That was one of the initial reports but now the story is that the woman was his wife and she was wounded in the foot when she tried to rush to Seals. Then they shot the unarmed Bin Laden twice in the head. His wife survived.

GfS-

You're on your own special trip now. Have fun while it lasts.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 03 May 11 - 06:49 PM

The touchy-feely platitudes and accusations of lawlessness apply equally to the terrorists, I presume.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 May 11 - 07:30 PM

There seems to be someone here who is all a-weep over the fact that bin Laden was shot while unarmed (although I heard--within the past hour--that he was going for a weapon, but didn't make it), and accusing those who shot him of "Wild West"ing it.

Not an ounce of sympathy for the 3,000+ people who were killed, and their families, when the World Trade Center was attacked.

Strange sense of values. Sounds like the kind of person who would sympathize with a rapist and blame his victim for provoking the attack.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bobert
Date: 03 May 11 - 07:50 PM

It ain't about that, Don... Bin Laden got off too easy... There isn't any report that I know of that says bin Laden was going for a weapon so given what he did (9/11 et al) I think a life time of being locked up in a 8 X 12 cell with one very horny, ugly and brutal murderer would have been fine with me...

He got off light...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: gnu
Date: 03 May 11 - 08:22 PM

Well... if they could have taken him alive they would have. The trial would have been swift as he is on video tape saying he did the crime.

As for him spending time in prison being Bubba's bitch, that don't happen nor should it. It just don't happen.

As for all the CSI shit, I don't understand it. What supposedly happened supposedly happened. Now it will be to step up to the plate time for NATO... stop the bombing and the killing and work with "the enemy" or continue to be an enemy of the enemy who will, in turn, be an enemy... ad infinitum.

There is an opportunity to move forward... or further backward... and most nations, especially Arab nations, have expressed same.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 May 11 - 10:09 PM

Well, whatever the truth of the matter is, Osama bin Laden is with his friends now.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 May 11 - 10:27 PM

First of all, how short Americans memory serves them. Does anyone here remember the initial reports of Jessica Lynch??...and the truth that came out after?????
Second, This punk, Osama got young, naive religious jerks to blow up innocent people(including themselves), while he hid away and hid behind women..at least his own according to those same 'reports'...nonetheless, he declared war on America, and killed plenty of us...so, if that's his deal, why all the ballyhoo about how or when or the circumstances of his demise? What?? You want to 'rehabilitate' him?? This pig IS one of the corporate fat cats, who you regularly hate on this forum. Why all this bleeding heart sympathy, for this mass murderer??. Next, you'll be weeping for Charles Manson!...and this pig was WAY worse!
That being said, I am against murder, of virtually any sort..so, something had to stop him! (ever consider that?)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 03 May 11 - 10:36 PM

Prof. Pervez Hoodbhoy on how the Pakistan Army gave protection to Osama Bin Laden, treating him as the Golden Goose that helped them extract more and more from the Americans.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/160658/the-curious-case-of-osama-bin-laden/

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 May 11 - 11:11 PM

As I said before, I'm sorry he's dead. I'm sorry when anyone dies. I am not, however, weeping over him anymore than I weep over the deaths of Adolph Hitler, Che Guevara, Elizabeth Bathory, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein, Benito Mussolini, Tsar Ivan III, Pope Alexander VI, Boone Helm, Clay Allison, John Henry Holliday, Colonel Patrick Edward Connor, George Custer, Irma Ida Ilse Grese, Ilse Koch, Stalin or any others of that sort.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 May 11 - 11:43 PM

Rapparee: "As I said before, I'm sorry he's dead. I'm sorry when anyone dies. I am not, however, weeping over him anymore than I weep over the deaths of Adolph Hitler, Che Guevara, Elizabeth Bathory, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein, Benito Mussolini, Tsar Ivan III, Pope Alexander VI, Boone Helm, Clay Allison, John Henry Holliday, Colonel Patrick Edward Connor, George Custer, Irma Ida Ilse Grese, Ilse Koch, Stalin or any others of that sort."

Any less?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 May 11 - 11:57 PM

As far as his being unarmed goes, that seems irrelevant to me. This operation was not a sheot'em up western; this was meant to take him out if he resisted in any way. It is most likely if he had held up his arms and fallen to his knees he would be alive.

Like Saddam- he was taken alive because he came meekly.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Clint Westwood
Date: 04 May 11 - 12:03 AM

conspiracy theory 1: shoot to kill to silence him to avoid capture and potentially embarrassing implicating trial disclosures..

conspiracy theory 2: killed years ago, body kept in deep freeze
to be thawed at an opportunistic political moment..

conspiracy theory 3: knew where he was all the time, CIA funded and built
compound to keep him safe from prying eyes until he was no longer a viable asset..

conspiracy theory 4: Genetic experiment gone wrong, Alien tissue samples fused with his body producing uncontrollable
mutant super villain capable of wiping out all life on planet
with one blast of evil x ray mind vision..

conspiracy theory 5: oops.. it's the wrong bloke, they aint got him after all...


etc etc etc etc etc...

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 04 May 11 - 12:09 AM

////I'm sure you know what Kendall meant. You constant prattling on about who invaded whom is worse than useless.////


They were pratlling more than anybody--shut up, man!

////Fact is Osama DID complain about "invasion" of his holy lands.////

I don't give a fuck what he waws complain about. He's dead so fuck him.

////By the way. I'd tell you just how I thought about how you were acting. But if I said you were acting like and asshole you would probably tell me that "Websters" defines you as dickhead.///

That's how I'd define you.   

///Also, I liked the comments about the neighbors. I like the Muslims I have met. I agree with your point of view on that issue.///

Whoopee.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 04 May 11 - 12:11 AM

///Fact is Osama DID complain about "invasion" of his holy lands. "Invasion" was his choice of words Whether he meant, Arabia, or all of the Middle East or every Arab land was not made clear. Why don't you go argue with him?///

Whose prattling about invasion now? Fuckin asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: J-boy
Date: 04 May 11 - 12:53 AM

Some fuckwit in my hometown of Portland,Maine spray painted "Obama today. Islam tomorow"(sic) on the side of our local muslim community center. I wish I could say it was surprising.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 11 - 01:09 AM

Did "civilization end" in 1941 when there was a British attempt to kill Rommel?

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 May 11 - 01:13 AM

Moral of the story: Declare war, kill people, and you might be next. Maybe he should have taken up folk music!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: J-boy
Date: 04 May 11 - 01:20 AM

Bin Laden did look a bit like a folkie. What with that beard and all...

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: michaelr
Date: 04 May 11 - 01:25 AM

Nah, too skinny.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 May 11 - 01:39 AM

Give up on polite dialogue, eh Josepp?

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 May 11 - 02:16 AM

In case it escapes you Keith, there was a declared war in progress then.

It may be a "good thing" that ObL is dead, although there are possible adverse consequences, but the manner of his killing was improper.

If he was not an enemy soldier he was entitled to due process as much as anyone else. Outlawry vanished from civilised jurisprudence centuries ago. I hope that even the USA no longer has a category of "Wanted, dead or alive". There was no trial. There was no lawful sentence of death.

If he was an enemy soldier, then he was entitled to be treated as per convention. He wasn't.

If he was an enemy leader then international law proscribed assassination.

The US had no lawful power of arrest - or military action in what was neither within their jurisdiction nor an enemy territory.


This was simply the power of the gun.   The outcome may turn out to be advantageous, but that does not make it proper.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 May 11 - 02:26 AM

Richard Bridge to Nowhere: "This was simply the power of the gun."

Hey, he was the one who ordered CIVILIAN planes to kill innocent people in the WTC..according to the Geneva Convention, while declaring war on us, right???..and you're bitching because he wasn't wearing a uniform????

OK, now that you read this post, you can replace your head up your ass!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 11 - 03:59 AM

"In case it escapes you Keith, there was a declared war in progress then."

Of course!
Sorry I missed that obvious distinction.

Had US been at war with Al Qaeda, it would be quite legal to kill any fighter unless they offered to surrender.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 04 May 11 - 04:17 AM

I can believe that some of the people in that neighbourhood truly might have been unaware of him living locally. It is quite possible. There have been many cases in the UK of murderers and abducters for example living in quiet residental areas. Neighbours have been shocked and surprised because it was claimed that the person was so quiet, easy going and unassuming so I can go along with that.

A short while ago quite recently I recall a news report saying that a recording from Bin Laden the first in a long while had been broadcast. It seems a bit of a coincidence now this has happened,   seems really fishy to me, could it be the broadcast was fake? With all the inconsistencies about the events it does make you wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 04 May 11 - 04:40 AM

I just love you American guys.
Not only do you illegally enter a foreign country armed to the teeth, you break into a private residence, murder unarmed people in cold blood, injure and cause grievous bodily harm to others, remove a body and 'bury' it without due process, AND THEN have the gall to say that the use of torture on illegally held prisoners who have never been charged with any crime was justified as it allowed you to do all this.
Priceless.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lox
Date: 04 May 11 - 05:30 AM

"As far as his being unarmed goes, that seems irrelevant to me. This operation was not a sheot'em up western; this was meant to take him out if he resisted in any way. It is most likely if he had held up his arms and fallen to his knees he would be alive."

How about if you are unarmed and cowering behind your wife?

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lox
Date: 04 May 11 - 05:52 AM

Well the answer is that you and your wife both get shot.

Its as if the US Government are deliberately thinking of ridiculous lies just make sure we understand that they couldn't give a shit.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 May 11 - 06:59 AM

Er - not only that Keith. The US in this case were not acting on enemy held territory.

Please note that I am not saying that the death of ObL was necessarily a bad thing - we will have to wait and see. The manner of its doing was IMHO unlawful.



Fugitive from Sanity: ObL may have committed crimes. Was he lawfully taken tried and sentenced? No. Unless rule of law prevails there is only the power of the gun.

Generally:

There are statements circulating (and parts of them may be true) that there had been offers to surrender ObL for an unbiassed trial in an unbiassed jurisdiction - but that the USA refused to consider them. That may or may not be accurate, but it is disturbingly similar to the refusal of the USA to recognise the jurisdiction of other countries on war crimes. I cannot see how ObL could have got a fair trial in the USA - indeed with the number of gun nutters there it would have been difficult to see how he could have survived in the USA until trial.

Proper trial is what separates criminal process from vigilantism. While I do not claim to be a master of US procedural rules it seems to me plausible that any trial of ObL in the US would have fallen foul of the "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 11 - 07:24 AM

It's no surprise that someone from the legal profession is a proponent of a, most likely, quite lengthy and very expensive trial....did I mention expensive....ka ching!

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 11 - 07:46 AM

"Er - not only that Keith. The US in this case were not acting on enemy held territory"

No, the terrirory of an ally who have no objections, and who have themselves lost thousands to Al Qaeda.

No one is objecting except Hamas and the Mudcat left-libs.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 May 11 - 08:48 AM

I'm a lib. Don't link me with the views in question.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 May 11 - 09:10 AM

I do hope that the Obama Administration resists the call by some to release photos of the deceased Bin Laden, with the exception of the funeral service. Such a release would serve no other purpose than to further inflame his supporters around the world to take some kind of action, and recruit more to their cause. That should be an easy call but for some reason some Republicans want to see the proof; maybe they can have a private viewing of the photos after confiscating their cell-phones.

Such photos might be released after 50 years or so, after passions simmer down.

I also hope that the members of the Navy Seal Team are never identified for their personal safety. Seals should be protected.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 May 11 - 09:18 AM

Charley, Pentagon policy is that the names of special operations people are never divulged.

It doesn't matter whether they release the photos or not. Fakes are already circulating on the Net, and anybody that eager to kill will take his or her cue from one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Taconicus
Date: 04 May 11 - 09:55 AM

Even if there had been a properly declared war, international law provides that one may not assassinate the leader of one's enemy. - Richard. Bridge

There is no such international law. You're speaking off the top of your head with obviously no knowledge of what you're talking about.

"Osama Bin Laden ... was an appropriate military target. As the titular and spiritual head of al-Qaida, he was the functional equivalent of a head of state or commander in chief of a terrorist army. From the beginning of recorded history, killing the king was the legitimate object of military action. The very phrase 'check mate' means 'the king is dead,' signifying the successful end of the battle." - Alan Dershowitz, Constitutional law scholar, renowned criminal and civil liberties attorney

http://www.hudson-ny.org/2093/targeted-killing-vindicated

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 11 - 09:59 AM

"No one is objecting except Hamas and the Mudcat left-libs. "
"ISLAMABAD (AP) — Pakistan says it is deeply concerned over what it said was an "unauthorized" American raid that killed Osama bin Laden.
The government statement says the raid should not serve as a precedent for future U.S. actions there and called the raid an "unauthorized unilateral action."
If the world is to have a self-appointed military pliceman it should not be a state that uses torture, imprisonment without trial, clandestine international terrorism, chemical warfare and the targeting of civilians (for which they have re-invented the English language - collateral damage).
America is a terrorist state, openly using terrorist tactics in its own political and economic interests and is every bit a danger to world eace as any other terrorist state.
Jim Carroll