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BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks

Wesley S 22 Aug 11 - 10:39 AM
MarkS 22 Aug 11 - 11:00 AM
Dorothy Parshall 22 Aug 11 - 11:05 AM
Dorothy Parshall 22 Aug 11 - 11:07 AM
GUEST,livelylass 22 Aug 11 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 22 Aug 11 - 11:44 AM
ranger1 22 Aug 11 - 11:46 AM
Jim Dixon 22 Aug 11 - 11:59 AM
Wesley S 22 Aug 11 - 12:07 PM
GUEST,Richard Bridge 22 Aug 11 - 12:09 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 22 Aug 11 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,999 22 Aug 11 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,Janet Stevenson 22 Aug 11 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,Janet Stevenson 22 Aug 11 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,999 22 Aug 11 - 12:44 PM
Bobert 22 Aug 11 - 12:45 PM
katlaughing 22 Aug 11 - 01:32 PM
gnu 22 Aug 11 - 01:40 PM
PHJim 22 Aug 11 - 01:51 PM
Wesley S 22 Aug 11 - 02:31 PM
Wesley S 22 Aug 11 - 02:39 PM
gnu 22 Aug 11 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,999 22 Aug 11 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,999 22 Aug 11 - 03:09 PM
Jeri 22 Aug 11 - 03:30 PM
gnu 22 Aug 11 - 03:52 PM
Bobert 22 Aug 11 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,999 22 Aug 11 - 04:37 PM
gnu 22 Aug 11 - 07:08 PM
Bobert 22 Aug 11 - 07:11 PM
Paul G. 22 Aug 11 - 07:26 PM
Bobert 22 Aug 11 - 07:35 PM
Paul G. 22 Aug 11 - 07:41 PM
Greg F. 22 Aug 11 - 07:47 PM
Bobert 22 Aug 11 - 07:53 PM
Paul G. 22 Aug 11 - 08:18 PM
Janie 22 Aug 11 - 08:20 PM
katlaughing 22 Aug 11 - 08:24 PM
Bobert 22 Aug 11 - 08:29 PM
Paul G. 22 Aug 11 - 08:47 PM
gnu 22 Aug 11 - 10:01 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Aug 11 - 10:03 PM
Greg F. 22 Aug 11 - 10:20 PM
ChanteyLass 22 Aug 11 - 10:36 PM
katlaughing 23 Aug 11 - 12:03 AM
Stilly River Sage 23 Aug 11 - 12:27 AM
JohnInKansas 23 Aug 11 - 12:48 AM
DrugCrazed 23 Aug 11 - 06:12 AM
GUEST,999 23 Aug 11 - 07:31 AM
kendall 23 Aug 11 - 08:25 AM
katlaughing 23 Aug 11 - 10:51 AM
Wesley S 23 Aug 11 - 11:14 AM
Greg F. 23 Aug 11 - 11:23 AM
Wesley S 23 Aug 11 - 11:46 AM
Paul G. 23 Aug 11 - 04:37 PM
gnu 23 Aug 11 - 05:24 PM
Janie 23 Aug 11 - 08:48 PM
GUEST,999 23 Aug 11 - 08:55 PM
GUEST,Josepp 23 Aug 11 - 08:59 PM
GUEST 23 Aug 11 - 09:07 PM
Janie 23 Aug 11 - 09:08 PM
GUEST,999 23 Aug 11 - 09:10 PM
GUEST,josepp 23 Aug 11 - 09:12 PM
GUEST,999 23 Aug 11 - 09:23 PM
Janie 23 Aug 11 - 09:26 PM
Janie 23 Aug 11 - 09:29 PM
Bobert 23 Aug 11 - 09:42 PM
Jeri 23 Aug 11 - 09:45 PM
GUEST,mg 23 Aug 11 - 09:47 PM
Bobert 23 Aug 11 - 09:52 PM
Janie 23 Aug 11 - 09:53 PM
GUEST,999 23 Aug 11 - 09:58 PM
Janie 23 Aug 11 - 10:01 PM
GUEST,mg 23 Aug 11 - 10:06 PM
GUEST,mg 23 Aug 11 - 10:11 PM
Bobert 23 Aug 11 - 10:16 PM
GUEST,999 23 Aug 11 - 10:31 PM
Janie 23 Aug 11 - 10:41 PM
Janie 23 Aug 11 - 10:45 PM
Bobert 23 Aug 11 - 11:00 PM
GUEST,mg 24 Aug 11 - 12:00 AM
GUEST,mg 24 Aug 11 - 12:16 AM
JohnInKansas 24 Aug 11 - 06:51 AM
kendall 24 Aug 11 - 08:03 AM
Greg F. 24 Aug 11 - 08:44 AM
Bobert 24 Aug 11 - 09:00 AM
GUEST 24 Aug 11 - 11:13 AM
JohnInKansas 24 Aug 11 - 11:22 AM
kendall 24 Aug 11 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,josepp 24 Aug 11 - 12:17 PM
gnu 24 Aug 11 - 02:50 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Aug 11 - 03:07 PM
kendall 24 Aug 11 - 03:23 PM
gnu 24 Aug 11 - 03:47 PM
GUEST 24 Aug 11 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,999 24 Aug 11 - 04:03 PM
katlaughing 24 Aug 11 - 07:25 PM
Greg F. 24 Aug 11 - 08:22 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Aug 11 - 09:10 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Aug 11 - 09:11 PM
kendall 25 Aug 11 - 05:59 AM
Greg F. 25 Aug 11 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,josepp 25 Aug 11 - 08:41 PM
gnu 25 Aug 11 - 09:10 PM
Greg F. 25 Aug 11 - 10:13 PM
Kim C 25 Aug 11 - 10:13 PM
Wesley S 26 Aug 11 - 01:44 PM
gnu 26 Aug 11 - 03:37 PM
Richard Bridge 26 Aug 11 - 03:48 PM
Wesley S 26 Aug 11 - 09:26 PM
GUEST 26 Aug 11 - 09:33 PM
GUEST,josepp 26 Aug 11 - 09:44 PM
Bobert 26 Aug 11 - 09:56 PM
katlaughing 26 Aug 11 - 10:16 PM
GUEST 26 Aug 11 - 11:03 PM
Janie 27 Aug 11 - 02:00 AM
Joe Offer 27 Aug 11 - 02:34 AM
Bobert 27 Aug 11 - 09:55 AM
Andrez 28 Aug 11 - 09:13 AM
Bobert 28 Aug 11 - 10:18 AM
GUEST,999 28 Aug 11 - 10:19 AM
Lox 28 Aug 11 - 11:54 AM
Andrez 29 Aug 11 - 03:49 AM
GUEST,999 29 Aug 11 - 11:33 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Aug 11 - 12:13 PM
gnu 29 Aug 11 - 02:41 PM
Dorothy Parshall 29 Aug 11 - 06:26 PM
GUEST,999 29 Aug 11 - 06:32 PM
Wesley S 29 Aug 11 - 07:04 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 30 Aug 11 - 03:01 AM
GUEST,999 30 Aug 11 - 10:51 AM
Wesley S 30 Aug 11 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,number 6 30 Aug 11 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 30 Aug 11 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,number 6 30 Aug 11 - 02:48 PM
Wesley S 30 Aug 11 - 03:34 PM
Bobert 30 Aug 11 - 08:18 PM
Wesley S 30 Aug 11 - 08:56 PM
Bobert 30 Aug 11 - 09:10 PM
number 6 30 Aug 11 - 10:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 31 Aug 11 - 01:02 PM

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Subject: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 10:39 AM

This makes sense to me but if there's one thing you can count on from the Mudcat - someone will see the issue differently. I understand other states will be putting other similar laws into affect.

The CNN story



From CNN:


Florida governor signs welfare drug-screen measure


Saying it is "unfair for Florida taxpayers to subsidize drug addiction," Gov. Rick Scott on Tuesday signed legislation requiring adults applying for welfare assistance to undergo drug screening.

"It's the right thing for taxpayers," Scott said after signing the measure. "It's the right thing for citizens of this state that need public assistance. We don't want to waste tax dollars. And also, we want to give people an incentive to not use drugs."

Under the law, which takes effect on July 1, the Florida Department of Children and Family Services will be required to conduct the drug tests on adults applying to the federal Temporary Assistance for Needy Families program. The aid recipients would be responsible for the cost of the screening, which they would recoup in their assistance if they qualify. Those who fail the required drug testing may designate another individual to receive the benefits on behalf of their children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: MarkS
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 11:00 AM

So what's the problem? Looks like they have a way to keep the addicts off, but with a mechanism in place to continue to aid dependant children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 11:05 AM

It does sound reasonable to me. As long as children are not hurt by it. Civil liberties?

Do they have access to rehab?

There are many instances that are questionable.

If motor- and by-cyclists do not wear helmets - their accidents cost gazillions in health care. Yet many people think they have the right to not wear helmets.

"Your rights end at my nose" was the saying in our family. That could include my pocketbook. Do we pay taxes to support people with addictions? Well, every smoker costs... in health care dollars. So does every person who does not eat properly, every alcoholic - often more dangerous than drugs; every person addicted to prescription drugs... Every person who does not take personal responsibility for their health....


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 11:07 AM

should smokers and alcoholics receive welfare?


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 11:10 AM

Much as I hate to say it, this is actually a good deal for the kids at least - and it's also of course good for those who often end up becoming unrecompensed (and unrecognised by the state) carers for the kids of addicts (often grandparents).


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 11:44 AM

'should smokers and alcoholics receive welfare?'

Should gross over-eaters, should careless drivers, should anybody?

Another nail in the coffin of solidarity and a society where people care for eachother.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: ranger1
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 11:46 AM

On the one hand, I think it's a good idea. Especially based on my observations of some of the people living in the public housing units at the end of the street. On the other hand, whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Yeah, I'm on the fence on this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 11:59 AM

You don't suppose they'd ever have tests like this for people who receive Social Security checks, or government payroll checks (including military)?

So why would they consider it for welfare checks?

Because it's OK to abuse people on welfare?


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 12:07 PM

If someone can afford drugs do they really need welfare? Or should it be saved for the folks who really need it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 12:09 PM

Yep, obviously good idea, should double the petty crime in the area so that addicts can buy their next fix. Really joined up thinking. Not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 12:12 PM

The state's avowed interest is in making sure welfare money isn't spent on drugs. By testing, they're assuming that the presence of a drug in one's system means one has spent money for the drug in question. While that assumption is probably valid where heavier drugs like heroin, coke, and meth are concerned, it's not necessarily the case for party drugs like pot. Many people who smoke pot never actually buy it. They only smoke at parties or when a friend drops by to share a joint. Sure, some people spend the rent money on bud, but many occasional tokers never spend a penny for it.

Denying someone welfare solely on the basis of THC being in their system, with no evidence that its presence indicates having spent money for it, is hypocritical. Let's call it what it is: using the allocation of welfare funds to enforce morality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 12:28 PM

The ACLU's position can be found with a google of

aclu drug testing welfare


"Another way to measure the cost is by counting what it costs to "catch" each drug user. Drug testing is not used by many private employers because of the exorbitant cost of catching each person who tests positive. One electronics manufacturer, for example, estimated that the cost of finding each person who tested positive was $20,000, since after testing 10,000 employees, only 49 tested positive. A congressional committee also estimated that the cost of each positive drug test of government employees was $77,000, because the positive rate was only 0.5%.[9]"


It will certainly enrich companies that do those tests.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,Janet Stevenson
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 12:39 PM

It is something of a joke here in the UK. The system is widely abused. Thankfully the government has promised to review benefits paid out to such leeches.

Read this

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1030237/Drug-addicts-alcoholics-3bn-increase-disability-benefit.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,Janet Stevenson
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 12:42 PM

The figures are amazing

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1379010/Scandal-80-000-alcohol-drug-addicts-sickness-benefits.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 12:44 PM

"Solantic Corp.
Headquarters: Jacksonville

What it does: Operates chain of 32 walk-in clinics treating minor medical emergencies, as well as offering physicals, immunizations and drug screening

Locations: In Central Florida and along Florida's east coast, in high-traffic retail areas"



I wonder who the major investors are in Solantic?


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 12:45 PM

Back in the olden days "Eligibility Workers" had to make a home visit to verify that there was no man in the house...

(And we wonder what happened to the nuclear family???)

I donno... Since welfare reform in 1996 there really aren't all that many people on welfare and if you do get on it you can't stay on it but a certain length of time before you are cut off (I think it's 6 months)...

Welfare represents such a small part of the over-all budget that this does seem to be politically motivated to make people think that there are all these lazy or addicted people sucking the government dry... That isn't accurate, at all... But that's the right's PR... People don't want jobs, they just want checks to fill up the Cadillac with gas...

I'd rather see the state of Florida go after the crooked so-called health care companies that collect billion$$$ in Medicare $$$ but don't even have doctors or much more than a PO Box... That is costing *US* one heck of a lot more than the paltry $$$ that goes for welfare...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 01:32 PM

Amen to that, Bobert.

The aid recipients would be responsible for the cost of the screening, which they would recoup in their assistance if they qualify.

Some people, including my daughter back East in recent times, and myself a long time ago, would not have the money for a test AND would NOT test positive.

Also, the ability to designate someone else to receive the money for their children proves nothing. Is the designated recipient going to have to pay to be tested, too? And, do you really think if someone is under the influence of drugs, including alcohol, that they won't be devious enough to figure out how to get around it by having the designated recipient just hand it over?

IF someone can afford drugs it is because they are addicted and unable to get off drugs without help. I am NOT excusing them, but the physiology of it is proof enough. What matters is treatment for drug addiction, counselling, etc. which this country is loath to provide to anyone who dares to have no money or insurance to cover the costs.

This is just another way of damning the poor and painting them with a broad brush which makes the hoity-toity feel superior and self-righteous. It will do nothing to help the children and, in most cases, mothers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: gnu
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 01:40 PM

Are there any statistics regarding how many jobs cannot be filled due to a lack of available qualified people?


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: PHJim
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 01:51 PM

Wesley said,"If someone can afford drugs do they really need welfare? Or should it be saved for the folks who really need it?"

How many addicts can afford drugs?
Yes, why don't they just stop using drugs and everyone will be happy?

Wouldn't it be nice if it were that simple.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 02:31 PM

The reality is that the resources are limited. If you have two people waiting for only one welfare check do you give it to the person who tested positive or negative?

And yes - I wish there was a spot in rehab for everyone who tests positive for an addictive drug. And as far as pot goes - unlike addictive drugs people have a choice. They can smoke and risk losing their check - or NOT smoke and get the money. If you had hungry kids at home what would you do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 02:39 PM

Oh - and as far as getting off addictive drugs? No it's not simple. It's damned hard. But it's worth it and can be done. If you give money to someone who is already addicted to drugs then you're part of the problem. Not the solution. And someone who risks getting kicked off of welfare just so they can smoke a joint is just downright stupid. Of course - that's just my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: gnu
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 02:46 PM

Pot? I thought this was a about addictive drugs. Ahhhh... that seems rather odd to me. Are they testing for alcohol?


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 03:01 PM

The ACLU is taking the case on (I think they started a few months back) and I expect the law will be overturned as a result.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 03:09 PM

"The U.S. Supreme Court has allowed blanket suspicion-less drug testing only if 'the risk to public safety is substantial and real.'"


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 03:30 PM

I can't imagine HOW this could be considered legal. No matter what anyone believes about people being able to afford drugs (and food and clothing and everything else) because of welfare, the fact that a person has used drugs does NOT mean they aren't going to use the money for legal things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: gnu
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 03:52 PM

So, Jeri... are you actually saying that people should not be convicted of a "crime" they haven't yet committed? Seems almost un-American (for lack of a better word) of you.

Hey... don't get yer panties in a bunch. If you think about what Jeri said from a logical and legal point of view, she is golden.

I can see the addictive drug viewpoint, and it needs to be addressed. It APPEARS the new laws have the ability of a second party being able to obtain funds on the drug user's behalf, hopefully ensuring the safety of those in the drug user's care. However, such may be exploited by drug pushers (in even worse fashion than now exists) AND this law seems to me to be ABLE to be abused in enforcement by "letter-of-the-law-bureaucrats".

Sounds good... must be good? I disagree. Education. Rehabilitation. Not punishment. It takes a village to raise an idiot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 04:37 PM

Let's get real here, folks...

This is all just Republican election politics...

I mean, they probably flipped a coin and drug testing won out over flag burning... It's another red mean emotional issue that fires up REDNECK NATION... I'm kinda sick of it, myself... They manufacture issues from thin air...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 04:37 PM

I'm sure that Gov. Scott who has 62 million dollars invested in Solantic--he had it turned over to his wife when he got elected--has the best interests of Florida Citizens at heart. After all, he once was in business with George w Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: gnu
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 07:08 PM

He put $62M in Solantic? Is that true?

If so.... and now this "un-thought-out" (yeah, right) bullshit legislation to rob the poor AND the taxpayers? Fuckin thief!... white collar thug! What a piece of trash! That is just inhuman. How can that piece of shit sleep at night? Silk sheets? UNreal. Making the problem worse for his own financial gain? Sickening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 07:11 PM

How do ya' really feel, gn-ze??? lol...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Paul G.
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 07:26 PM

I live in the great state of Florida -- in Jacksonville, in fact (home of the very Solantic Healthcare that is owned by our dear Governor Scott). The only people who stand to benefit from this bit of political theater are the Gov and other Solantic investors. You really have to live here to understand that this State executive will wreck the beauty left down here in order to benefit his big-business supporters. Did I mention that he has the worst approval rating of any Governor in the country? Somewhere under 30%. Dioxin in the rivers? No problem as long as the Koch Brothers-owned Georgia Pacific can continue to profit from the pollution. (not that I have an opinion)...


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 07:35 PM

Sorry, Paul G, to hear about yer situation... My mom lives over on the Gulf Coast... She ain't wild about yer Gov either... But then shes a commie...lol...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Paul G.
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 07:41 PM

Ha -- Bobert -- I probably met her at last month's secret meeting...


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 07:47 PM

How about mandirory drug testing for all of the State of Florida's elected officials as a pilot project. Lets see how that works out first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 07:53 PM

Yup... Just like professional sports... Fail one and you get suspended...

Good thinkin', Greg...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Paul G.
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 08:18 PM

I'd settle for a morals test... that'd take care of most of 'em...


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Janie
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 08:20 PM

Reminds me of the big red stamp I used to see on some very old case records when people were approved for welfare assistance, going back to the late 30's and early '40's when I worked for the Dept. of Welfare in West Virginia.

"Deemed Worthy by the County Council."


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 08:24 PM

Paul, my sympathies.:-) Seriously, it's good to hear from you on this issue. IMO, Florida has been effed up since it helped steal the presidential election. Not to mention the lack of support for the precious environment.

Greg, Capitol(sic) idea!


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 08:29 PM

Wow, Janie...

I never saw anything like that when I was in social work but then again my clients weren't that old... Does kinda make ya' wonder with the County Council as the "eligibility worker"... What??? Did they vote???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Paul G.
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 08:47 PM

Hi Kat -- thanks for the sympathy :)... this state has been effed up since long before the Bush boys stole that one... Paradise will always be a target, though there are some here working from the grass roots to protect that bit of nature's blessings that remain... it's a hard uphill climb.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: gnu
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 10:01 PM

Greg and Paul... good ideas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 10:03 PM

Precious little sympathy for the elderly afraid to leave their homes, for the women who have to take buses late at night, for neighbors who have had their few prized possessions stolen, for children left to fend for themselves for days on end. You can test me any time, including when I get Social Security. I believe the military does get drug tested. I am all for it. With some drugs, I think there is no way that children can be raised safely. I would set up a cashless system to care for addicts, giving them shelter and food and medical care and treatment, but almost no cash except for incidentals, and I would segregate drug users and non-drug users in housing for the sake of protecting the non-drug users.   There would have to be supervised visitation for their children mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 10:20 PM

And I suspect you would intern Japanese Americans as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 10:36 PM

Here's another opinion. http://networkedblogs.com/lYmuv


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 12:03 AM

Yes, Paul. Good to know there are some good people working there. I've read so many beautiful and eloquent descriptions of it, esp. in certain novels by James Lee Burke and a couple of others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 12:27 AM

The rate of incarceration in the U.S. is directly influenced by the lobbying of private prison corporations who profit when every non-violent offender is given a ridiculously long prison sentence instead of community service or some program that keeps them in the community offering restitution. Same thing with drug testing - influence creates a demand where there was none before in order to enrich a few.

Drug testing is a waste of time and money, it blames the victim (self-medication is a problem in all walks of life, but it is penalized when the drug of choice is illegal). Wasn't Florida's governor a convicted felon to do with Medicare fraud?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 12:48 AM

Recent hand-wringing over bankruptcy of Medicare/Medicaid confirms that 80% of applications for disability assistance are rejected at first application. This is a nationwide average, and it's significantly worse in some states.

1. First application for a Medicare/Medicaid disability benefit requires full reporting from ALL PHYSICIANS who have seen the applicant in the past year.

2. First application requires a complete examination of the applicant by an "independent medical practitioner" designated by the agency.

3. First application requires a psychological examination by a psychologist/psychiatrist designated by the agency.

4. First examination requires completion of an application form of about 30 pages by the applicant.

5. First application requires submission of a 12 page "questionnaire" by each of at least "3 different persons who know the applicant."

6. Any additional examination requirements "deemed necessary" by the agency MUST BE COMPLIED WITH. A "second opinion" by another medical "specialist" is usually demanded.

7. An "interview" with an agency employee is required. This interview theoretically can be done by telephone, but the telephone interview invariably results in a demand the the applicant "come to the office" to answer "additional questions."

8. ALL REPORTS are "privileged communications" between examiners and the agency, and the applicant IS NOT ALLOWED TO KNOW WHAT WAS REPORTED.

8. No rationale for the inevitable rejection is provided.

Numbers are less verifiable, but approximately 60% of those rejected apparently will file an appeal. Of those who appeal and persist, the national average is that 98% will eventually be awarded a disability benefit.

10. Those who appeal are required to re-submit the same 30 page application. (The prior submittal will be rejected)

11. New reports (approx 12 pages each) from "3 persons who know you" must be provided.

12. NEW REPORTS from all of the same of their own medical providers as in the first round, plus reports from all additional practitioners who have seen them since the original application must be submitted. (Don't forget the ones they sent you to.)

13. A new medical exam is required by one or more designated practitioners. In our personal experience the local practice is to designate "less accessible" persons for the appeal exams.

14. A new psychological/psychiatric exam by an agency designate is required. See above re "accessibility."

15. In our area, the same 80% arbitrary denial is applied to all "first appeals." Nearly all will re-file a second appeal.

16. On Second appeal, a complete new set of application forms must be submitted.

17. Three of your acquaintance must again complete the 12 page (approximately) report on their observations of you.

18. A new report is demanded from each medical provider who has seen the applicant. In this case the time is "back to one year prior to first application. (Don't forget both sets of those they sent you to in prior rounds.)

19. A new examination by a different designated "medical person" is required.

20. A new psychological/psychiatric exam by a designated person is required.

For all of the above, decreasingly accessible "designates" were chosen for us:

20.a. In our case, applying for disability in which "limited mobility" was significant, the "handicap parking" was within "legal distance" of the building, but the only entrance was 216 feet further (outside). Inside, a 184 ft long hallway led to a "sunken" lobby. The only directory to indicate examiner's office location was sunken in a display that could not be seen by a person seated in a wheelchair or mobility device. To reach the elevator required ascending 12 stair steps. (Say goodbye to the wheelchair?). The elevator exit was 184 feet from the office. When the need arose, we found that the nearest restroom was NOT ACCESSIBLE. Had she sat down on the pot there was insufficient aid available to get her off of it. The "handicap" restroom was 387 feet down the hall past the elevators.

It took the "applicant' about 75 minutes to get from the vehicle to the office on the first trip.

21. After the above, you wait for assignment of an "administrative judge" and for a "hearing date."

22. In our case, the wait was just over 2 years for the "assignment," and a further 7 months for the "hearing."

23. Since the disability had been fully confirmed at first application, no mention of the applicant was made at the "hearing." The "judge" asked if the applicant smoked and was told "No." He then asked if the applicant drank coffee. Applicant admitted to "about a cup every couple of weeks." The judge then delivered a 40 minute "lecture" on his theory that no one would be disabled if everyone stopped drinking coffee (he read up on it on the Internet), haggled briefly with the attorney about the "agreement on retroactive benefits" (required back to date of disability in the regulations, but settled for "attorney's fee" as of the hearing.)

Total time from first application SIX YEARS AND FOUR MONTHS.

Total benefit received, approx $130/month, and one year earlier eligibility for Medicare in place of existing Blue Cross.

(The "disability benefit" for those over 56 only allows payment of the benefit they would receive at "full retirement," based on their individual earnings and payment of SS taxes, rather than the reduced benefit for starting regular Social Security at the age when disabled, and Medicare 2 years after disability is awarded instead of at age 65. Unlike insurance benefits, Social Security "income" IS TAXABLE.)

And the Governor of Florida thinks one piss in a cup will "clarify everything?"

IF he agrees with my assessment that NO PRACTITIONER that the agency demanded must evaluate our applicant was qualified to treat me for a blister on my thumb, he may have something, I suppose.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 06:12 AM

I don't need welfare, and I find this whole thread libelious. Shame on you all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 07:31 AM

Here's the test they will administer.

Q What state do you live in?

1 I live in the state of

a) drug and/or alcohol induced inebriation
b) Florida

If your answer is a, you are well and truly fu#ked. Stop writing the test. If you answer b, proceed to the next question.

2 Name the illegal drug.

a) Excedrin
b) Marijuana aka pot, shit, dope, boo, Mary Jane, weed.

If you answered a, proceed to question 3. If you answered b, you obviously belong to a fringe element that deserves to be punished for sins you may or may not have committed, and you are well and truly fu#ked. Stop writing the test.

3) If you are handed a card that reads "The statement on the other side of this card is true" and then turn it over to read "The statement on the other side of this card is false", do you answer

a) Delaware
b) Who the hell knows?

If you answered a you are well and truly fu#ked. Stop the test now. If you answered b, proceed to question 4.

4) I need social assistance because

a) I want to buy drugs
b) I want to buy drugs

If you answered a or b, you are well and truly fu#ked. Stop writing the test and move to a state that doesn't have an idiot for a governor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: kendall
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 08:25 AM

Ok, so, we deny anyone welfare if they test positive for drugs. Will they quit drugs to keep the welfare? or will they simply go to home invasions and muggings to feed their habit?
My money is on the latter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 10:51 AM

Good point, Kendall.

JohninKS...hugs to you both, not worth much, but glad you finally got it settled. IN the past five or so years, I was turned down, based on no recent salary history...duh, as if I could work, at the time. When I was first disabled I was told I shouldn't apply because I would not qualify. (I've since been told otherwise.) I didn't even bother trying, again. They wanted all records from way back and I gave them what I had. Most of the docs and/or hospitals no longer had my records available for copying. It was pointless to reapply. I can imagine a lot of folks getting discouraged and not bothering.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 11:14 AM

So paying welfare to someone who tests positive for drugs because they MIGHT start mugging people and invading homes sounds like protection money to me. YMMV.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 11:23 AM

What about paying a salary to Rush Limbaugh, Wes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 11:46 AM

Money just makes him talk more not less. But it's a good idea. I wish it would work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Paul G.
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 04:37 PM

And now THIS


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: gnu
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 05:24 PM

Welllll... 1140/240 = how many months? Then, after that, there is a savings. I mean, if yer gonna argue dollars on THAT basis, yer goin down the tubes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Janie
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 08:48 PM

Wesley, if the issue is tax payer dollars, a just solution would be to require every person in the country to be drug-tested and barred from any action, activity, or benefit funded by tax dollars.

That basically means anyone with a positive drug screen is not allowed to breath.

It is a stupid, ineffective law or regulation that will serve no purpose other than to continue to foster a sense of moral superiority on the part of certain haves over the have nots.

Reminds me also of the North Carolina Eugenics board, for those who have been following the news on the North Carolina task force.

Also is another inexorable step toward Big Brother, a place to which we are already dangerously close. We might, unwittingly, already be there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 08:55 PM

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hi, Janie. From other sources I know the Wiki info to be true.

"In 1928, the Province of Alberta, Canada, passed legislation that enabled the government to perform involuntary sterilizations on individuals classified as mentally deficient. In order to implement the Sexual Sterilization Act of Alberta in 1928, a four-person Alberta Eugenics Board was created. These four individuals were responsible for approving sterilization procedures. In 1972, the Sexual Sterilization Act was repealed, and the Eugenics Board dismantled. During the 43 years of the Eugenics Board, it approved nearly 5,000 individual sterilizations, and 2,832 procedures were actually performed."

Also from Wiki, but a separate article"

"It was not until 1969, under the direction of Peter Lougheed, Progressive Conservative and Leader of the Opposition, the Act was reviewed. Mr. Lougheed's party intended to introduce a provincial Bill of Rights and a review of existing legislation was directed in an effort to identify potentially conflicting legislation. Mr. Lougheed attacked the Act on legal and moral grounds and the Progressive Conservative party adopted repeal of the Act as part of their platform."

Y'ain't alone.

In 1972 David King, MLA Edmonton Highlands, was successful in introducing a Bill to repeal the Sexual Sterilization Act.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,Josepp
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 08:59 PM

Where I work, you have to submit to a drug test as a condition of employment. Nobody gives you an exemption for a party drug like pot. They find pot in your piss sample, you're not getting hired. So why should we give exemptions to people applying for welfare? And that should go for drugs and alcohol too. Hey, you want to buy booze and cigarettes? Go out and get a fucking job.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 09:07 PM

I should point out that a letter to the Red Deer paper prompted them to call me (phone) and ask if I would go for a picture and interview t/b published in their paper. (That was about 12 years ago.)

#################################################################

When I

1) found out that such a law had existed I was furious
2) found out that the repeal of the law took three years I was furiouser
3) found out that some people--one of whom said that in a letter to the editor--thought it was a just law, I was furiousest

I think when people know, they will get the law off the books. Why? Because humans just shouldn't be that way. At least, we hope so.


Good post, Janie.

B


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Janie
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 09:08 PM

Let me tell you something. An analysis of the "moral" characteristics of the poor and destitute would reveal that poor folks are no different from the rest of the population along those demographics. An analysis of "antisocial behavior" among poor people vs people who are not poor would probably not yield statistically different results. I take that back. I would not be surprised, if good research were possible, if an analysis of antisocial behavior did not reveal that antisocial behaviors are somewhat but equally higher at both ends of the socioeconomic spectrum than in the vast middle of the spectrum. It is easier to hold those at the lower end of the financial spectrum accountable at a lower thresh-hold of antisocial behavior than it is to hold those at the higher end accountable at a lower thresh-hold.

I have no objection to drug-testing welfare recipients as a condition of receiving benefit from the public coffers provided all who receive benefit from the pubic coffers (which includes each and every one of us,) must also meet the same test.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 09:10 PM

Sorry, Josepp, we have once again cross-posted. I can feel deep inside that we meant to say the same things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 09:12 PM

That's what I'm saying. I'M the one getting tested! Nobody is screaming bloody murder about MY rights and MY treatment. All the sudden it's a big deal because they want to test welfare applicants. Why the hell should I cry for them?? All I have to say to them is WELCOME TO THE CLUB!


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 09:23 PM

Without knowing where you are or your employment status--although knowing that would change little for right now--I have nothing to say about your specific situation. However, you imply by your writing that because you're getting screwed, your screwing is worse than that of others. The people being 'attacked' by this are much less able than you. They need your help more than you need my sympathy.

IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Janie
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 09:26 PM

Bruce, Thanks. Yours too. The "you" in my last post was a generic "you,". Was typing and didn't see your last couple of posts, and don't want you to think my comments were in response.

North Carolina just finished with a series of legislative hearings to decide if reparations should be made to the individuals or some surviving family members of people who were sterilized by order of the North Carolina Eugenics Board. Although many states kept Eugenics laws on the books for far to long, North Carolina actually kept up the practice long after other states had discontinued the practice. Unfortunately, but perhaps practically, the budget woes of the state at the current moment are such that it is unlikely that significant reparation will be made. Not sure I can argue with that, given the financial straights the state now finds itself dealing with, and given that help for people in immediate need could be affected if the legislature approves reparations. The reality is, those reparation monies would come directly from funds that would otherwise go to disadvantaged populations without political clout, and not from funds set aside to provide for things like excellent roads or tax incentives for businesses that rarely fulfill their promises.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Janie
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 09:29 PM

Uhmmmm make that "straits."


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 09:42 PM

What Janie says...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 09:45 PM

I had to get tested for my job (military) as well. It's not the same thing. I wasn't an addict when I got the job. If fired from that job, I could have found work elsewhere.

I suppose if these people on welfare because they can't get jobs are disqualified from receiving it because of a drug test, they can always find another way to get money. I suspect their options involve something more illegal than their drug use.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 09:47 PM

I absolutely am for drug testing of anyone receiving public benefits, and that includes public education. If anyone wants to argue that every citizen be tested, then so be it. I am not for singling anyone out. I do think that the simple fact of testing will reduce use in the people at the edges of drug use..not the hard core but the oh my parents will kill me if they find out. It should be as noninvasive as possible, as respectful as possible, and while you don't want to stereotype the 20 year olds, you probably don't need to test their great grannies as often. There could be safe and secure places for single people to be housed if they are positive for some drugs that are more aggressive, and there could be improved, better facilities for those who do not test out positive. The problem is always what if they have children...I do not know what all the answers are but I know that we have to break into this complex of poverty-related behaviors and you can start in a number of places, but that is one that will yield quick results. We are condemning whole generations of people to live with serious drug offenders and dealers. They live their lives in terror. I have seen children so afraid to walk to school..old people afraid to leave their apartments. It is not victimless behavior...it depends on the drug and the violence it could cause. And various drugs will leave you variously impaired in terms of insuring the safety and welfare of your children..certainly including alcohol. Of course this will be answered with abusive comments, but there is not unlimited money to keep putting out. We need to tighten up so that the money will stretch farther if nothing else. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 09:52 PM

That would bring about Big Brother on Crack, mg... Get real... This ain't Afghanistan and our government isn't the Taliban...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Janie
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 09:53 PM

Bobert, I don't know how that worked back in the early days of "welfare."

I just know the road to the "deserving poor" leads to nowhere.

Clarify, josepp. Are you saying that if your employer did not require drug testing, you would be actively opposed to drug testing as a condition of receiving welfare benefits?


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 09:58 PM

"We need to tighten up so that the money will stretch farther if nothing else. mg"

You seem not to have read the thread. The testing costs much more than the rewards. No offense, but your reasoning doesn't stand up to the facts. No offense meant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Janie
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 10:01 PM

mg, you are naive. I don't mean that disrespectfully. It is rare to encounter some one who sees the world in such black and white terms who also obviously possesses bonafide compassion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 10:06 PM

For the first several months..I am not going to review their math but it should not cost much to test people..I do not think they should have to pay for it, which they can't afford..and the accounting etc. just adds expenses. I am not saying to not help them but I am saying do not give them cash. Give them hospice type care if they are single and can not function without drugs. Some drugs should never be given but some could be in supervised care. It probably won't be cheaper than welfare on a per person basis, but there would be long-term benefits that people never seem to do math on. If you remove drugs and drug seeking behavior in a neighborhood, the violence rate will go down and then small businesses will start to take root. Houses will be fixed up, parks will be kept up..there is a strong upward ripple effect. Employers will not be afraid to move in and there will be a supply of workers. Stores will not be afraid to open in certain neighborhoods. The pleasantness factor of a neighborhood without alcoholics on the street will shoot up. Why do people not want this? Philosophy is strangling people in these conditions because people won't do sensible obvious things because their philosophy gets in the way and poor people pay the price. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 10:11 PM

I am far from naive and I do not see the world in black and white terms. I am very pragmatic and like to see results and not debates and people putting in roadblocks all over the place. I think people will change if they are given both enticements to good behavior and obstacles to bad behavior..most of them..not all of them. I do not think we have to wait until 100 conditions are met before we plunge in and do something. I believe that things can be fixed, sometimes pretty intractable-seeming things, and sometimes fairly quickly. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 10:16 PM

It's weird, Janie...

Back in '68 I worked for the local CAP program as a "community organizer" (horrors) and was a assigned to "Hillside Court", a housing project in South Richmond and was told to organize a WRO (remember them??? Welfare Rights Organization) among other things...

Then about 6 years later I had to work 6 months in "eligibility" while waiting for a certain "adult service case worker" job came up that I knew was coming up and knew I'd be hired for (another story)...

But it was very weird to be on both sides...

But during my "eligibility" days, yeah, we had to make "home visits" to verify the "no man in the house" requirement...

Welfare has always been the whipping boy of the right wing...

Hey, if you look at the the entire federal budget this is a joke... We blow more money in Iraq and Afghanistan in one day then we spend on the entire welfare programs in an entire year...

Yet, we have to have the right wing use these kinds of ***red meat*** non-issues to fire up their base???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 10:31 PM

The one thing that truly bothers me about this issue is why do we think we have proprietary rights over people. We have none over the stock market, over the people we elect, over the multinationals and big money interests who pay for politicians to be elected, but we do over the disenfranchised. WHAT are we learning here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Janie
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 10:41 PM

Where we may differ, mg, is that I tend not to think in terms of "good" behavior vs "bad" behavior. I tend to think in terms of functional and dysfunctional behavior, and to be forever mindful that what is functional in the context of one person's life and resources may well be dysfunctional in the terms of another person's life and resources. I am sometimes paralyzed by the ambiguity that context provides.

I think the world needs people who think like you and people who think like me. I do not think the world needs needs people who think only of themselves, but I also think that people of means who think only of themselves historically have an uncalled for advantage over those people without means who think only of themselves. I am ever preoccupied with the dynamic balance crucial for survival of our species between the individual and the social.

Not sure where Darwin would land on that particular continuum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Janie
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 10:45 PM

Good question, Bruce. I expect the answer is a non-answer - an ever shifting balancing act.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 11:00 PM

I wonder why we have to have this discussion every four years???

Seems that the right can't throw enough red meat to their base...

'Nuff said on my part...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 12:00 AM

The largest employer in my county is shellfish industry. The people there work shucking oysters for minimum wage and it is horrifying work to me..they work furiously fast with sharp knives and slippery oysters. Or they go out at night on the oyster beds, where they could get lost, or they could get stuck in the mud, or at least they are doing back-breaking work at minimum wage. Who should they support? The injured Iraqui veteran? Yes. The 90 year old incontinent, bedridden woman? Yes. The two-year old orphan? Yes. The drug-addled state college student who sucks up state funds and makes taking a bus a disgusting experience? I would rather they did not have to. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 12:16 AM

I don't get paralyzed in general. I say first you do the trick and then you get the banana, and if you want a public benefit, you had better be on your best behavior (or non-dysfunctional if you will), and you had better not endenture anyone's paycheck by your optional (as opposed to mental illness etc.) behavior. You had better not spit on the streets, or scare people or talk in threatening ways on the bus and since you are getting a public benefit, you will earn some of it if you are capable and screened for safety, by working in a nursing home, day care center, park etc. We ask almost nothing of people and the dysfunctional behavior spreads. We need to say this is what to do to get this..and make it attractive enough so that they will want to do it..make part-time work at minimum wage attractive enough that they will take it by not making it economically scarier for them to work than not work..subsidize efforts.

There needs to be a triage system. Some people are able to switch their behaviors fairly easily with the right incentives. Some never can, due to addiction, mental illness etc. There is a group in the middle that needs various help, especially job help, and I do think government should be employer of many in sheltered situations. We need more people in nursing homes and parks and painting schools and cleaning public buildings and for those deemed non-violent they could be earning part of their benefits.

Part of the problem is..a big huge part of the problem..is looking at the most difficult situations and thinking everything is hopeless. It is for some people and they need to have different plans and support than those who need jobs or benefits in lieux of jobs. There is a lot that can be done with a can-do attitude and people who know how to get things done.

And one thing I think is that some middle-class people are using poorer people to act out their own anti-social desires...like I want to be a bad girl but I really can't but I can encourage other young women to act in certain ways and call it support. And whenever anyone proposes something I can shoot it down. I can be a nay-sayer and come up with all sorts of reasons why nothing will ever work until a very complex and expensive system is set in place. I do not want simple, incremental improvements..I want a grand plan and I will stomp my feet until I get it. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 06:51 AM

I see many comments here - as is almost universally the case - that indicate that people are complaining about how thngs work with total absence of any knowledge of how the do work. (Or it might be more accurate to say how they don't work since the benefits available are poorly administerd.)

In the US, and individual can apply for Social Security disability if there is a valid reason why the individual can no longer perform income earning work.

Without disability, a person can "retire" and receive Social Security benefits at age 62 or in some cases 58, based on that persons history of payments of Social Security and Medicare withholdings while employed. The benefit is reduced so that the total amount received from the time of retirement up to the "expected life" of the person at the age of retirement is the same as would be received if the person retired at "full retirment age," and received the maximum monthly payments for which the persons work/earnings history qualified them.

If disabled and unable to work at an earlier age, the recognition of a Disability allows the person to collect the same monthly benefit for which the applicant's personal history of employment and payment of withholdings for SSA and Medicare would qualify them if they were at full retirement age. The only "cost increment" to Social Security is the few years prior to normal retirement.

If a person has NOT WORKED in an occupation covered by SSA, and has NOT PAID his/her share into the SSA program, there IS NO SSA DISABILITY BENEFIT available to them.

A person now is automatically enrolled for Medicare coverage for normal health care at age 65. This is some help for those who don't have access to any other insurance, but for persons who retire at normal age, on average Medicare pays about 20% - 30% of "ordinary" medical bills. An advantage - sometimes a disadvantage - of Medicare coverage is that Medicare specifies the amount providers can charge, pays its 20%. The patient remains responsible for the remaining (average 80%), but the providers are NOT permitted to require the patients to "make up the difference" between the providers "normal" charges and the Medicare specified allowable charge.

IF YOU DO HAVE decent other insurance, most major insurance providers have similar "agreements" with providers of medical care, requiring them to accept the "standard charges" allowed by the insurer. For the better insurers, the maximum charges are similar to what Medicare specifies.

Without Medicare or another insurance, typical charges claimed by providers run around 150% (sometimes much more) of what they accept from those who are insured by Medicare or some other good policy.

A person who is declared disabled by Social Security is automatically enrolled in Medicare two years after the award of the SSA disability benefit. (There is no choice of whether to convert from another policy to Medicare, although most people "on Medicare" require supplemental insurance.)

Medicare coverage IS NOT FREE. The Medicare Insurance payment is deducted automatically from the SSA retirement benefit you receive and it IS A SUBSTANTIAL PART OF YOUR SSA INCOME. You cannot be on Medicare unless you also recieve a retirement benefit.

Additionally, the misconception that some have that Social Security Retirment benefits are not taxed IS A LIE. They must be reported as income, and although there are some differences in "brackets" applied they are taxable income for most who receive them.

There is an additional "welfare" program called the SSI (Supplemental Security Income?) benefit for which any persons can qualify to receive benefits due - in essence - to "poverty." Medicaid insurance for medical care is generally considered a part of SSI, although rarely there is a technical difference.

An individual generally cannot qualify for SSI benefits.

A couple living together, married or unmarried, cannot qualify for SSI benefits unless they are the sole support of a child who lives with them.

In some cases, IF the child qualifies for an SSI benefit, after demonstrating that a specific disability of the "parent" who cares for the child who receives benefits would prevent the child from receiving care, some necessary and confirmed medical care for the "parent" may also be paid by SSI/Medicaid.

There is NO OTHER Federal support for childless persons or family groups who are "just too poor to survive."

Social Security retirement benefits are paid, and the deductions for Medicare premiums are deducted by the Federal Government. The Medicare premiums are forwarded to the states.

Medicare is administered entirely by each state. One recent survey cited THREE states as "nominally providing the Medicare benefits as provided for in Federal regulations." ALL OTHER STATES have been described as "withholding, evading, diluting, or otherwise failing to provide the full benefits to which recipients are entitled under Federal law and Federal Medicare regulations.

All SSI benefits are administered by each state. Medicare funding is intended to cover SSI benefits, and in some cases separate SSI funds, in addition to Medicare premiums, have been passed from Federal budgets to the states. The observations about state's performance of the administration of SSI are much the same as for Medicare.

Although there are Federal laws/regulations specifying some conditions that "Unemployment Insurance" must meet, all Unemployment programs are administered entirely by each individual state, from determination of the amount of premiums to be paid in and collection of the "premiums" to disbursement of funds to those who qualify. One of the very few enforceable rules in the Federal statutes is the specification of a "minimum period of unemployment" for which benefits must be paid. That one clause is the only thing permitting Congress (the Federal one) to "extend benefits in times of crisis."

Some, but not all, states have additional programs for assisting persons in need. The best that can be said about any of them is that they are "capriciously created, obstructively administered, and underfunded for what they're intended to do." No state that I've heard of has any benefit that any person qualifies to receive "because there are no jobs to be had" or because "I just can't find a job."

"Food stamps" are a Federal program and the stamps are distributed by the Fed (now in the form of debit cards), but qualifying individuals to receive them is left largely to the states. Generally, it's difficult to qualify unless one has "a child in need of feeding."

NO PROGRAMS are available that do not involve support of children, to anyone who has not previously worked productively and paid the specified contributions via taxes (including the FICA/Medicare ones). Existing programs intended to assure the the care of disadvantaged children should be adequate to detect dysfunctional familes, alcoholism, or drug use. Demanding a drug test where there is reasonable evidence of drug use is perfectly appropriate. Since the benefits available are nearly all are "in the name of the children" removing the child if the test is positive is one of several possible remedies, and in most cases "removes the benefit."

Assuming that "everyone who applies for help" is a drug addict is simple IGNORANT BIGOTRY.

Sorry if the summary above is superficial. It isn't a simple subject, and there isn't a "magic bullet" that bigots can enforce that will solve all the problems.

Poor people are not all criminals, despite what (apparently most here and elsewhere) people seem to think. They're just poor.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: kendall
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 08:03 AM

Jeri, right on.
Josepp, if there were any jobs to start with would they be on welfare?


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 08:44 AM

Poor people are not all criminals, despite what (apparently most here and elsewhere) people seem to think. They're just poor.

mg et al are channelling Schrooge:

'Are there no prisons?' said Scrooge.

'Plenty of prisons,' said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

'And the Union workhouses.' demanded Scrooge. 'Are they still in operation?'

'Both very busy, sir.'

'Oh. I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,' said Scrooge. 'I'm very glad to hear it.'

'Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude,' returned the gentleman, 'a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?'

'Nothing!' Scrooge replied.

'You wish to be anonymous?'

'I wish to be left alone,' said Scrooge. 'Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned-they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there.'

'Many can't go there; and many would rather die.'

'If they would rather die,' said Scrooge, 'they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.'


Its really heartening to see how far society has advanced since 1843.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 09:00 AM

Thank you, John in Kansas... It's refreshing to read a well thought out rebuttal to an emotional argument based around bumper sticker length policy positions...

This one is just a rewrite of the old "Welfare Cadillac" which was popular in the 60s and 70s and is intended to misinform so that the "believers" will go out and retell it with a hope that it will bring in more Republican votes...

I'm surprised that they haven't dusted off the ol' "Flag Burning Amendment"... lol...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 11:13 AM

Precious little sympathy for the elderly afraid to leave their homes, for the women who have to take buses late at night, for neighbors who have had their few prized possessions stolen, for children left to fend for themselves for days on end.

I would think it pretty certain that an idea like this can be expected to make all those things worse. Are they planning to carry out serious research to monitor the outcome so that they can slam this into reverse very quickly, if I am right? I very much doubt it, that's not the way populist politics tends to work in nay country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 11:22 AM

Bobert -

The "flag burning amendment" and several others of similar kind have been brought back several times here in Kansas; but since they couldn't quite (by slim margins) pass in the Legislature the good people elected a bigot for governor who's been vigorously attempting to get it all done "by decree."

The only barrier seen to our instantly having a State Religion (at least for the State) seems to be his inability to select one of the dozen he's previously claimed is "the real one," although he's yet to come up with a proposal that says which one he's talking about, leaving the one imposed subject to takeover (locally?) by any lunatic fringe that happens to get a few members elected (locally?) ... wherever.

He quite probably thinks he will "obviously" be favored by one with lots of financial resources for supporting his ambitions, though.

The situation here is uncomfortably reminiscent of 1938 in a faraway land nobody was watching very closely, but nobody really noticed (or remembers) how that bit of unpleasantness all got started - - - and besides, lots of people made huge profits from it.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: kendall
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 11:29 AM

I came from abject poverty but lucky for me, we qualified for welfare so I could stay in school, get a good education and in time get a very good job. Every advantage I have had in life has come to me through the policies of the Democratic party.
I could have quit school, took a series of dead end jobs and ended up an unemployed laborer.
Anyone want to challenge that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 12:17 PM

////Clarify, josepp. Are you saying that if your employer did not require drug testing, you would be actively opposed to drug testing as a condition of receiving welfare benefits?////

Drug testing is bullshit. But if one group of people can legally be subject to it nonvoluntarily, then everybody should be legally subject to it nonvoluntarily. Once you rationalize it as ok for people in my case, you're allowing everybody else to rationalize it any way they want to make it apply to anybody they want. Which is precisely what is now happening and it's too late to complain now.

And don't anybody dare pull this "helpless poor" bullshit on me. I've known several people over the years on welfare and not one of them couldn't have gone out and worked but simply didn't want to. And this idea that they'll go out and commit crime if denied benefits, remember, the benefits are temporary anyway--they run out eventually.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: gnu
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 02:50 PM

Drug testing for job applicants is simply a money saving policy. If there is a great number of applicants for a job, screening out the drug users BEFORE skill testing and interviews saves resources. Also, it's based on the fact that a druggy PROBABLY can't do the job as well as the non-druggy AND, perhaps even moreso, based on the fact that a druggy MAY cost the employer grief in various ways in the future.

It is simply good business sense.

I think that applying the, "If me, then why not them?" arguement is flawed in this instance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 03:07 PM

Hey, if someone is handing out (free)money, to 'help' you, I don't think it unreasonable that they have a condition of sobriety. The money is supposed to help families feed their children and help put a roof over their heads...not to keep the recipient stoned, while the dependent children get neglected, so mom or pops can stay stoned, and look for cures from the munchies!...and NOT look for work!..it was only meant for a 'safety net', not a way to prolong recreational stoning, as a way of life!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: kendall
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 03:23 PM

I'm not concerned about the drug addicts. I am concerned about the kids.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: gnu
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 03:47 PM

Maybe they should get their dog stoned. It might stop chasing it's tail... unlike what this thread is doing.

The leaders granstanding instead of addressing the problems is crap. Education and rehabilitation. Odd that Asia is dominating the world economy? Not likely. The eductae their young while ours are sent to kill people half way round the world because they don't get a decent education. If they were educated, they wouldn't do that.

Anyway, I hope that all those who want single mothers with no skills tested for drugs and denied assistance if they test positive never resort to drugs themselves or have children that do, for whatever reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 04:02 PM

The thing that makes me gape at some of the absolute foolishness I have seen on this thread is that

#1--the testing will be more expensive than what welfare will save
#2--see #1

Which part of that do folks have difficulty understanding?


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 04:03 PM

The thing that makes me gape at some of the absolute foolishness I have seen on this thread is that

#1--the testing will be more expensive than what welfare will save
#2--see #1

Which part of that do folks have difficulty understanding?


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 07:25 PM

JohninKS, thank you for that last posting.

From what I know from my relative's experience, there is SSI(?) for people of retirement age who are at poverty level due to no retirement monies and/or not enough paid into the system for SS benefits. The feds provide a small monthly amount and, in Colorado, the state also kicks in a small amount. Senior citizens on such also qualify for food stamps. It's the only thing I may qualify when I "come of age" as long as our income is very low by then. Such a rosy picture. Sure hope my books sell well when I get them out!


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 08:22 PM

Atta boy, Josepp "I'm getting fucked over so I want to be sure everyone else get fucked over as well, and if possible, worse fucked over than I've been".

That's the spirit that made Amerika great.

Stop pissing, moaning, and whining and DO SOMETHING about your getting fucked over, fer chrissakes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 09:10 PM

I think I count on this thread two resident members of the moral gestapo and a lot of sensible people - oh and a flyby loony who sounds like one of the UK members of that which is not mentioned.

It is very nice to see so much sense being talked and regrettable to see the UK contribution as on average further to the political right than the USAian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 09:11 PM

And 100


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: kendall
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 05:59 AM

We can not legislate morality


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 08:47 AM

Tell it to the Tea Potty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 08:41 PM

////Anyway, I hope that all those who want single mothers with no skills tested for drugs and denied assistance if they test positive never resort to drugs themselves or have children that do, for whatever reason.////

But their benfits run out anyway--I believe they expire in 2 years the least I heard. So then what do they do?

If they spent their time acquiring skills instead of popping out kids left and right, they wouldn't need welfare in the first place.

/////Atta boy, Josepp "I'm getting fucked over so I want to be sure everyone else get fucked over as well, and if possible, worse fucked over than I've been".////

Create straw men much?


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: gnu
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 09:10 PM

"But their benfits run out anyway--I believe they expire in 2 years the least I heard. So then what do they do?"

They rob you unless the government educcates them instead of spending all that $$$ on killing people to defend their way of life.

Oh! There's a thought! Don't kill people thousands of miles away... or, maybe, kill just enough so we can support our own citizens... maybe it's justa balancing act? I am sure some politician can work outsome numbers.

It's a mad mad world... in more ways than one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 10:13 PM

Create straw men much?

Not hardly.

"Drug testing is bullshit. But if one group of people can legally be subject to it nonvoluntarily, then everybody should be legally subject to it nonvoluntarily..."

Your statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 10:13 PM

I don't believe in drug testing for any reason without probable cause because I believe it's unreasonable search & seizure. If someone applying for benefits has a documented drug problem, then sure, test them. If they have no history of drug abuse, why should they be tested?

I got laid off from my job of 15 years back in April, and I was pretty stunned to discover that most prospective employers now want a drug test, or at least say they *might* want one. Now, I don't have a dang thing to hide, but unless someone has reason to believe I might be using, I don't think they have a right to test me.

But I'm just an unfrozen caveman and don't understand all these modern ways. I was able to get a new job without a drug test, although the official application states that the university might ask for a pre-employment test.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Wesley S
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 01:44 PM

I think you'll find that often it's the insurance companies that provide the medical insurance that are requiring the drug tests at a lot of employers. No random tests - no insurance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: gnu
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 03:37 PM

Good point Wesley. And, it IS their perogative.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 03:48 PM

Another good reason for a national health service.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Wesley S
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 09:26 PM

And what makes you think that it would be any different with a national health service?


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 09:33 PM

////Not hardly.

"Drug testing is bullshit. But if one group of people can legally be subject to it nonvoluntarily, then everybody should be legally subject to it nonvoluntarily..."

Your statement.////

Where did I say I want people to be subject to rules worse than I have to follow, you fucking ctupid asshole? Your words.


Guest, choose a moniker and USE IT consistently or your posts will be deleted. Thank you -- Mudelf


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 09:44 PM

/////Josepp, if there were any jobs to start with would they be on welfare?////

I've known people on welfare. I knew a whole network of them They don't want to work and THAT is why they are on welfare.   Not because there are no jobs. They expend more energy finding ways to avoid working than they would if they just went to work. The few who really wanted out of it got out of it.

I don't care where you live or how bad the situation is--if you want out badly enough, you will get out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 09:56 PM

Do you really understand how "welfare" has worked since Welfare Reform Act in 1996, joez???

Google it up... Your stereotypical generalization is, ahhhhh, bogus... These people haven't existed since 1996... They can't just stay on welfare anymore... Check it out...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 10:16 PM

It looks as though there is good information, in detail, about who receives welfare benefits and a myriad of other related details at MDRC (Manpower Demonstration Research Corporation).

Of particular interest might be their A Profile of Families Cycling on and off Welfare .

I make NO claims as to their information and know nothing about them except what I've just seen on their website which I just found, but it looks worthy of further reading, imo.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 11:03 PM

gnu: "Maybe they should get their dog stoned. It might stop chasing it's tail... unlike what this thread is doing."

OK!..This thread gets this too!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Janie
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 02:00 AM

John in Kansas' post regarding SSI is pretty good, but there are some errors in his information.

The Supplemental Security Income , aka SSI, was established in 1974.

For adults, The definitions of aged, blind or disabled are legally identical for SSI and Social Security, and when applies for one, application is automatically made for the other. The only difference in the two programs for adults is that SSI is also "means tested." That makes the process for an adult (I don't know much about the process or eligibility for disabled children) applying for SSI disability every bit as difficult and delayed in terms of establishing disability as it is for Social Security Disability, but not more so. In fact, in most, perhaps all states, when an adult makes application for benefits based on disability, applications for both SSI and SSD are automatically and simultaneously generated and handled by the same agency.

None of which has anything to do with the issues around a requirement for a negative drug test in order to receive a welfare check.

Philosophies are great, and necessary. So is self-interest. But people, step outside of both and use your good brains.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 02:34 AM

I worked for the U.S. Government 1970-1996, and then my job was privatized and I worked as a contractor until 2001. Every time there was an administration change, we were affected by the pet projects of the current administration. During the 1972 presidential election campaign we soldiers overseas who supported McGovern were investigated. Then there was Management By Objectives, which required us to play silly games. And there an administration that insisted that government employees should write well, so they had high school graduates teach us English from workbooks, even though our jobs required a college degree. And then there was the Reagan Administration, with its "just say no" /Drug-Free America campaign. The administration decided that all 700 of us investigators in the Office of Personnel Management would be subjected to random drug testing, even though our agency had never had a problem with drug abuse and our job wasn't hazardous. So, we were supposed to check in with the boss every morning to see if we were to be tested that day. If we were scheduled, then we had to drop everything, cancel all appointments, and run off to pee in a cup.

It was demeaning, and it was a real crimp on our efficiency. The ACLU recruited two of my California coworkers to sue the government on this issue, and we won. They put a stop to the random drug testing before the program was put in place, and testing was limited to hazardous positions and to employees suspected of having a drug problem.

It seems to me that most mass drug testing is done to make a political point, and it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference unless it's targeted at a group that really needs testing.

It seems to me that whether people use drugs or not, they need the basic subsistence provided by welfare payments. If they use the money for drugs, then that's their problem.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 09:55 AM

Thank you, kat, for the "Cycling" article...

Yes, some mothers do... Most don't... But lets look at a rather typical mother who does... She is about to receive here last assistance check and must now go to work or be homeless with 2-3 children... Dad/s??? Long gone...

So she takes the only job she can get... Usually Walmart, K-Mart or a fast food restaurant making minimum wage of roughly $7.25 an hour and now must figure out how to live on that... Remember, even if she is in a HUD project she still has to pay a percentage of her income for rent... Then there's cost of food which Food Stamps helps but doesn't cover... Here are the kickers... She has to pay for child care while she is at work and she must be able to get to work...

And she has to do all this on $7.25 an hour??? Good luck... So she ends up owing the people for everything she isn't able to cover just about the time she come back into eligibility...

And the beat goes on, and on, and on...

If we want to end welfare then we need to jack the minimum wage up to $15 and hour and even then it's gonna be tough...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Andrez
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 09:13 AM

All this talk about the deserving or non deserving poor!

Why aren't people looking at business welfare in the form of the tax breaks and other massive government subsidies and asking why this kind of welfare is OK but not the other kind that goes to people who are essentially victims of the American dream (sic)!

What is so hard to understand that the interests of business and the political and religious power elites that support them are NOT evenly remotely aligned with the interests of ordinary people, whether they are working currently or not? If people in the US took this on board the outcome of the next elections could look quite different.

There is nothing revolutionary about this its just stating the bleedin' obvious!

Drug testing people, the victims of changes to the social and economic relationship between the individual and the state whose consequences were NEVER spelt out in black and white before they were voted on and implemented by government is an appalling attack on human rights and basic, common decency...... all those things that the US is supposedly trying to bring to other countries.... at the barrel of a gun mind you!

> JiK the bureaucratic process you detailed above is just simply appalling on an other level entirely by any standard.

While on the matter of drugs, if government subsidies and tax breaks to big business were reduced/eliminated so that the fate of these companies was left to the judgement of the all powerful, all knowing 'market', then perhaps the execs whose bonuses (and drug habits) are subsidised by the ordinary taxpayer might find themselves on welfare and having a taste of the system they've helped to inflict on every one else. Next GFC let 'em go under. That goes for the politicians too!

Cheers,

Andrez

PS: I repeat, the interests of individuals, families and communities are NOT and never will be aligned. IF you believe otherwise you have been conned, hook line and sinker. If you want toe explore tis a little further have a read of Joe Bageants book: Deer Hunting with Jesus to get a sense of the extent to which Americans (and by definition the rest of the western economies) have been screwed by business welfare sucking Corporations.

http://www.joebageant.com/joe/


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 10:18 AM

Kendall is on the money... The crime rate went down drastically in Richmond when the Methadon Clinic opened...

Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 10:19 AM

Well said, Andrez. The brief video (3:50 ish I think) was a bit too "come to Jesus" for me, but if I ever do find religion, that's the kinda religion I could get behind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Lox
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 11:54 AM

"Yep, obviously good idea, should double the petty crime in the area so that addicts can buy their next fix. Really joined up thinking. Not. "

Exactly my thoughts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Andrez
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 03:49 AM

No worries Guest 999, I was referring to the two books and hadn't looked at the video's myself.

Religion specially the US fundamentalist, born again kind, is bad enough as it is but when it is aligned with neoliberal social values and economics and all the right wing political baggage associated with that, its easy to see whose interests are being served and they are not those of ordinary citizens!

As I said before, how about people looking much more closely at business welfare and asking who is benefitting from that and then asking in the words of the famous Julius Sumner Miller: "Why is this so"? and then taking it a step further and doing something about it either at the ballot box or by rediscovering 'community' and refusing to play the good little 'consumer' role mapped out for them by the corporations.

Sadly the US isnt the only stage on which this tawdry B grade anti-humanitarian movie is being played out.

:-(

Andrez


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 11:33 AM

" rediscovering 'community' and refusing to play the good little 'consumer' role mapped out for them by the corporations."

Bingo!


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 12:13 PM

if you want out badly enough, you will get out

Suicide being the way, much of the time. As you said, josepp, you "don't care where you live or how bad the situation is..." And there are an awful lot of people who see it that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: gnu
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 02:41 PM

Sorry if this was posted before... So, this would be a "Unine You're Out" program?


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 06:26 PM

Having beaten this subject into the ground, maybe I missed it but has anyone suggested legalizing drugs - yes all of them??


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 06:32 PM

I have never done drugs nor do I have any intention of doing so but--psssssssswhooooosh--I think the lady has an idea there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Aug 11 - 07:04 PM

Well Dorothy - Drugs will not be legalized. But I can just see the Republicians having to back off of their stance that an unregulated marketplace is the best thing since indoor toilets. Right now they say that regulations kill jobs. I bet they'd be singing a different tune if pot , meth and smack were sold openly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 03:01 AM

And then from the 'other side' of the debate:

Florida is the first state that is now going to require drug testing for welfare! Some people are crying this is unconstitutional. How is this unconstitutional? It's completely legal that every other working person had to pass a drug test in order to have a J-O-B that supports those on welfare!

So, what do you say to that?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 10:51 AM

"It's completely legal that every other working person had to pass a drug test in order to have a J-O-B that supports those on welfare!"

First, that's a fabrication. You posit that it's completely legal. The jury's still out.

I keep hoping that the Florida government elected members will step up and undergo voluntary drug tests. Lead by example.

How about THAT?


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 11:26 AM

That sounds good to me too. All elected officials should step up and pee in a cup if they expect to get paid by the taxpayers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 12:49 PM

In Canada random alcohol/drug testing of employees in safety-sensitive positions is legal if it is a reasonable requirement that alchohol and or drugs can indicate actual impairment of ability to perform essentual duties.

And thank God for that .... I certainly would not want that Air Canada pilot flying the plane I'm in to have a drug dependancy.

Where a friend of mine works an employee recently was found doing a line of coke in the washroom. That certain employee could not be fired. They did have to mandatory attend some rehab sessions. As if that would help.

The problem as I see it is not drugs/alchohol in itself, but why is society so needy that drugs/alchohol are so widely acceptable ... are we so fucked up that we have to get buzzed to get through life,or to have a good time. ... but then again, what the hell do I know.

Personally I think welfare recepients should be drug tested, along with every elected politician. If we cannot afford adequate health care for our seniors, children, if we cannot afford a decent education for the young then maybe we should rethink of where are tax doallars really do go to, and rethink on who is spending our tax dollars.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 02:01 PM

Guest,999. What I did was post another point of view, that was an answer to the lame excuses about the constitutionality of drug testing. Frankly, I AGREE with you. Not only that, I think Presidential candidates should prove their citizenship, and other qualifications, BEFORE being nominated. I also think that the federal government should side with the citizens of OUR people, and not file suit against states, such as Arizona, for enforcing laws the the feds, refuse to, and siding with drug cartels of a foreign country, over our own citizens.....but then, would they really be representing the people to whom they are in bed with??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 02:48 PM

"has anyone suggested legalizing drugs - yes all of them?? "

sure .... I'm for legalizing it all. Best we can do to keep it into some sort of legit marketing firms.

but

what's legalizing drugs have to do with the subject of this thread?

"there's a hole in daddy's arm where all the money goes. Jesus Christ died for nothing I suppose"

legal, or not legal .... that's where all the money goes.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 03:34 PM

Why would the big drug companies allow the "recreational" drugs to be legalized? They've established huge corporate empires with the current set of laws in place. They would lose massive profits if the system were to change - so it's simply not going to happen. To think otherwise would be - a "pipe dream".


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 08:18 PM

Hey, let's institute drug testing on every defense contractor, every lobbyist, every government contractor, every teacher, every guy who works for contractors who build bridges that get government money, every congressional staffer, everyone who get any government service such as fire or police protection, everyone who breathes good ol' polluted US air, etc...

Lets get real here, folks... The Taliban is alive and well in the US and holed up at the Tea Party headquarters...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 08:56 PM

Well Bobert - if we got Congress to pee in a cup we might eliminate a few of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 09:10 PM

Given what we have seen lately, Wesley, I'd say that drug testing in Congress would wipe the joint out...

(You said "joint", boberdz???)

Never mind...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: number 6
Date: 30 Aug 11 - 10:20 PM

why not give everyone in the whole damned country a drug test .... something must be wrong .... the country is so irrational .... so fucked up .... it must be on something.

biLL .. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Drug test needed to get welfare checks
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 01:02 PM

biLL: ".......the country is so irrational .... so fucked up .... it must be on something."

Amen!

GfS


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