Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]


Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?

Related threads:
Steamboat coonjine songs (67)
Minstrel Shows, Part Two (81)
What is the etymology of 'Pattyroller'? (40)
Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' (83)
'Coon Songs' Revisited (13)
Lyr Add: Minstrel Coonjine Songs (6)
Offensive lyrics- edit? (54)
(origins) Origins: Free at Last/I Thank God I'm Free at Last (8)
Lyr Req: Give That Nigger Ham (Parker/Woolbright) (23)
Chord Req: Josh White - Run Mona Run (4)
Tune Req: Fiddle tune 'The Patter Roll' (6)
Lyr Req: Oh, Mona (24)
'Coon Songs' Your Thoughts About Them (145)
(origins) Origins: Run, Nigger, Run (92)
Ethics for Performers (35)
Tune Req: I'd Rather be a Nigger than a Poor White (11)
Singing In Dialect (70)
Racist songs .... arghhhh! (115) (closed)
Minstrel Shows (117) (closed)
Advice Please? - use of offensive words in songs (113)
Trad lyrics that are not PC (17)
Are lyrics offensive (69)
Preserve Politically Incorrect Songs??? (73)
Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ? (94)
'Offensive' words in song lyrics (73)
darkeys - offensive term, or not? (49)
Lyr Add: Run, Jimmie, Run (4)


Mrrzy 28 Jul 20 - 03:24 PM
David Carter (UK) 28 Jul 20 - 03:02 PM
Stilly River Sage 28 Jul 20 - 09:48 AM
David Carter (UK) 28 Jul 20 - 09:43 AM
GUEST,Mike Yates 28 Jul 20 - 09:20 AM
GUEST,Mike Yates 28 Jul 20 - 09:11 AM
Steve Gardham 28 Jul 20 - 09:10 AM
David Carter (UK) 28 Jul 20 - 06:14 AM
Doug Chadwick 27 Jul 20 - 06:16 PM
Steve Gardham 27 Jul 20 - 02:21 PM
Doug Chadwick 27 Jul 20 - 01:34 PM
GUEST 27 Jul 20 - 06:51 AM
David Carter (UK) 27 Jul 20 - 05:42 AM
GUEST 26 Jul 20 - 02:54 PM
The Sandman 26 Jul 20 - 02:50 PM
Mrrzy 26 Jul 20 - 02:03 PM
The Sandman 26 Jul 20 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,Howard Jones 26 Jul 20 - 11:43 AM
Steve Gardham 26 Jul 20 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,Observer 26 Jul 20 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,Gerry 26 Jul 20 - 09:14 AM
Mrrzy 26 Jul 20 - 08:11 AM
Mrrzy 26 Jul 20 - 08:02 AM
The Sandman 26 Jul 20 - 08:00 AM
Howard Jones 26 Jul 20 - 07:17 AM
Steve Gardham 26 Jul 20 - 06:29 AM
The Sandman 26 Jul 20 - 01:23 AM
Joe Offer 25 Jul 20 - 09:25 PM
GUEST,Gerry 25 Jul 20 - 08:59 PM
The Sandman 25 Jul 20 - 05:48 PM
Joe Offer 25 Jul 20 - 05:04 PM
GUEST 25 Jul 20 - 03:10 PM
Mrrzy 25 Jul 20 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,Gilly 25 Jul 20 - 01:31 PM
Mrrzy 25 Jul 20 - 12:30 PM
Stilly River Sage 25 Jul 20 - 10:21 AM
Brian Peters 07 Jun 20 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,Rigby 07 Jun 20 - 07:02 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 20 - 06:25 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 20 - 06:18 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 20 - 06:01 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 20 - 04:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jun 20 - 04:34 AM
Gibb Sahib 07 Jun 20 - 04:14 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 20 - 02:53 AM
The Sandman 06 Jun 20 - 01:16 AM
GUEST,Starship 05 Jun 20 - 09:19 PM
Jeri 05 Jun 20 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,BlackAcornUK 05 Jun 20 - 03:40 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Jun 20 - 03:37 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum Child
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 03:24 PM

I know songs in lots of languages I don't speak. Comes from growing up with the likes of Bikel!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 03:02 PM

Yes, I also only speak English fluently. Which doesn't mean that I can't appreciate traditional music when I can't follow the words (or maybe follow a written translation), or even when there aren't any words (as is true of a fair part of the traditional music of Southern Europe).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 09:48 AM

It has been one of my complaints about this forum that it is very parochial in what it covers. Almost all discussion concerns material from North America or the British Isles.

Parochial, that is debatable. Go look through old threads and you'll find quite a range the content covers. Mudcat covers the English-speaking world, without a doubt. The lion's share of us speak only English fluently.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 09:43 AM

Ah, right, yes I had assumed that Lomax made the recordings, but thanks for correcting me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 09:20 AM

I suppose that David Carter could be referring to volume 5 of the Columbia World Library of Folk & Primitive Music - Australia & New Guinea. But, if so, these recordings were made by a Dr A.P.Elkin and by the Australian Broadcasting Commission. I would think that Lomax would have had the recordings sent to him in America, where he edited them for the album.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 09:11 AM

I am not aware that Alan Lomax ever visited Australia. Can anybody confirm this, please?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 09:10 AM

David
Perhaps our parochialism stems from the fact that the music we love is such a minority interest, and is swamped by more commercial music. Most of those who do get involved, because of such small numbers, find themselves so immersed in the music with so much to do that there simply is not time to go dashing off into other cultures and genres. For Lomax it was his living and his life's work, but I'll bet family side of things often played second fiddle because of his obsession. I know even at my level of obsession that can create problems.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 06:14 AM

Well sort of Steve, but in other ways it isn't a big parish, because the music discussed from four of those countries is the music of recent immigrants from the other two. Lomax did collect traditional music in Australia, some while ago someone posted a link to those recordings, which I have now lost.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 06:16 PM

OK, forget what I said Mrrzy. I have just seen what the smoking comment referred to.

DC


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 02:21 PM

David
Mudcat covers whatever the people who contribute want it to cover. The current contributors have no control over who or what. There is no discrimination. Some of us are specialists in our particular field, and want to give out info and answer queries on what we know.
Those in the know rarely have time to spread into other fields. There is no deliberate exclusion. We do have plenty of experts in specific areas of world music but in the main they have solitary knowledge that no one else here has. Jack, Vic, Phil to name just a few. Their contributions are certainly valued but it doesn't always relate to what the rest of us are interested in.

UK, Ireland, US, Canada, Oz, NZ; that's one helluva big parish!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 01:34 PM

And disliking smoking is not racist: Content of character, not skin color.

???

Mrrzy, I don't understand this comment.

DC


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 06:51 AM

Sandman Mrrzy was referring to James Cook the British explorer.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 05:42 AM

It has been one of my complaints about this forum that it is very parochial in what it covers. Almost all discussion concerns material from North America or the British Isles. Alan Lomax collected material from many parts of the world. Occasionally Kerboxeru will tell us about things from elsewhere, but its very little really.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 02:54 PM

Do I detect a touch of the "white saviour" in some of the posts in this thread?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 02:50 PM

MRRZY,ok true.
Cook do you mean thomas cook travel agent?
The United States has invaded about 200 nations and territories. Panama, Iraq, Afghanistan, and possibly Venezuela. Invasions fit in with regime change. Other invasions from the past such as in 1898 in Puerto Rico have continued to this very day.quote Wiki
Dubbing random places and overthrowing Allende who was democratically elected,
Still i am sure you would agree with that, because you are American, it doesnt follow that you support american imperialism any more than i support british imperialism


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 02:03 PM

Cook also has a lot to answer for, sailing around and dubbing random places!

And disliking smoking is not racist: Content of character, not skin color.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 01:54 PM

Howard, do you remember the guy who sang nicotine girl at blackmore singers club, and jim garrett who had a rocket shaped guitar.
i suppose people will son be stopped from singing nicotine girl , because it does not discourage smoking.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 11:43 AM

This is what I meant earlier by "dancing on the head of a pin".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 10:10 AM

We're getting into really barking mad territory here. What shall we henceforth call North America? And if the original inhabitants didn't have a collective name for it should we just not give it a name at all?

I think M and all those who want to go in that direction should be given the impossible job of naming every name on the planet according to the preferences of the original inhabitants. Now then, what did the cave men call it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 09:21 AM

What was it called by it's original inhabitants Mrrzy? Where was it recorded?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 09:14 AM

Mrrzy, the Dutch explorer Abel Tasman, who gave the island the name "van Diemen's Land", did not invade it, nor did he establish a penal colony, nor any other kind of colony. Moreover, as I wrote earlier, it's not even clear to me that he met any of its inhabitants, or even knew there were any.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 08:11 AM

I meant to say, when saying Well that's what it was called, it should be made clear that it's *not* what it was called by its actual inhabitants, but by its white invaders, whether you want to quibble about whether establishing a penal *colony* counts as colonizing or not.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 08:02 AM

My point was that much of the problem is folks, especially white folks, not *noticing* racism.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 08:00 AM

I feel there is a danger here that we risk dancing on the head of a pin trying to find every possible taint of racism, rather than focus on dealing with real issues that actually affect people's lives.
very good... for example institutionalised racism in the police force
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kgtl


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 07:17 AM

"Van Dieman's land being the name given to what is now called Tasmania by white colonials who considered it uninhabited? Really? Nothing racist?"

That's a dangerous argument coming from someone who lives in a country also named by white colonialists. However there can be very few countries which are still known by the names their original settlers gave them - most have been occupied and re-occupied many times over. It's stretching the idea of racism to apply it to using the generally accepted name for a place. Then there's the added complication that places have different names in different languages. Is it racist to refer to "Egypt" instead of "Misr"? Is it racist to write that in the Latin alphabet rather than in Arabic script? Where does it stop?

It also seems to me to be excessively zealous to start excluding tunes simply because they were once performed by minstrels. Where they have racist titles then those should be changed, but many do not, and are not associated in modern minds with minstrelsy.

I cannot accept the modern idea that the slightest possibility of giving offence must be avoided, no matter how remote or irrational. Someone can be found to take offence at almost anything. If it is necessary to research the history of a tune in order to decide whether to be offended by it, if someone goes out of their way to find offence, then that should be acknowledged but not necessarily acted on.

I feel there is a danger here that we risk dancing on the head of a pin trying to find every possible taint of racism, rather than focus on dealing with real issues that actually affect people's lives.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 06:29 AM

Joe, your adversary is effectively trying to 'whitewash' history if you cannot have the discussion in public. You were clearly using the songs as examples of racism. I cannot see a problem with that.

Also if you can't even mention what a place was named at some point in history then you are whitewashing history, regardless of who gave it that name.

The authorities have it right in my opinion. Don't destroy the statues, put them in a museum and explain why this happened. Not rocket science.

Likewise the use of the N word. To ban it completely is ridiculous. If it is used in the way Leadbetter sang it then it is completely acceptable. The usage is completely clear in the song and needs no explanation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 01:23 AM

yes , joe, that is exactly the point i am trying to make.
An intersting song in the context of this discussion is Bourgpise Blues, written by a Black man Leadbelly.
Lyrics
Lord, in a bourgeois town
It's a bourgeois town
I got the bourgeois blues
Gonna spread the news all around
Home of the brave, land of the free
I don't wanna be mistreated by no bourgeoisie
Lord, in a bourgeois town
Uhm, the bourgeois town
I got the bourgeois blues
Gonna spread the news all around
Well, me and my wife we were standing upstairs
We heard the white man say "I don't want no niggers up there"
Lord, in a bourgeois town
Uhm, bourgeois town
I got the bourgeois blues
Gonna spread the news all around
Well, them white folks in Washington they know how
To call a colored man a nigger just to see him bow
Lord, it's a bourgeois town
Uhm, the bourgeois town
I got the bourgeois blues
Gonna spread the news all around
I tell all the colored folks to listen to me
Don't try to find you no home in Washington, DC
'Cause it's a bourgeois town
Uhm, the bourgeois town
I got the bourgeois blues
Gonna spread the news all around
This is a song specifically about racism, and uses the word NIGGER, TO MAKE A POINT AGAINST RACISM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 09:25 PM

Mrrzy's point, Sandman, is about the name Van Diemen's Land, not about the entire 10-verse song. Can't say I agree with Mrrzy's point of view. The song is set at a particular time, and the place was called "Van Diemen's Land" at the time. That's reality, not racism.

-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 08:59 PM

"Van Dieman's land being the name given to what is now called Tasmania by white colonials who considered it uninhabited?"

vna Diemen's Land was the name given by Dutch explorer Abel Tasman who, so far as I can tell, did not set up a colony there. Whether he considered it uninhabited, whether he even met any of its inhabitants, is not clear to me from a quick scan of readily available materials.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 05:48 PM

van diemans land , what is the content of the song, let us have a look.
    Come all you gallant poachers that ramble void of care
    That walk out on a moonlight night with your dog, your gun and snare
    The harmless hare and pheasant you have at your command
    Not thinking of your last career out on Van Diemen's Land

    rest of lyrics here (click)


    We had no shoes nor stockings on,
    Nor scarce any clothes to wear;
    Only lindsey drawers and leather [clogs?]
    And our head and feet went bare.

I would have no problem singing this song, it is not in my opinion racist it is a song about being transported for poaching.
van diemens land was the name it was called at that time.
a song i would alter would be polly wolly doodle, which has a line[ i jumped on a nigger cos i thpught he was a hoss]
Who in an audience am i going to upset by using the term, van diemans land?
I am not going to upset, Black Brown or mixed race people.
but singing that line in polly wolly doodle is offensive.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 05:04 PM

Are racist traditional songs "OK"? Of course not.

But does that mean they must be erased from history, never to be reprinted, spoken of, or sung again? I certainly hope not.

Well, we're tearing down all those historic statues of racists. What's the difference. Those statues were erected as part of a concerted campaign by the KKK and others to rewrite history, to depict the Confederacy and slavery as something benign or even heroic. They are boldfaced lies cast in bronze, and they must be removed from places of honor.

Racist songs shouldn't be in places of honor, either. They must be seen for what they are, not as something cute or quaint - but people need to know the reality of these songs, in a way that does not applaud them.

So, what do we do with them? Is bowdlerizing permitted? Well, much as I hate to admit it, some bowdlerizing is necessary. There were lots of good songs written in the past that just sound racist nowadays, and we just can't teach them to kids or play them on the radio the way they are.

On the Facebook page of the San Francisco Folk Music Club, a 30-yr-old friend of mine has been waging a campaign to suppress all songs with racist roots, especially songs that were sung in minstrel shows. That would wipe out almost all American music from the 19th century, because blackface performers were very common in U.S. music halls and vaudeville shows, and they sang everything, even non-racist songs, in blackface. On the top of my friend's list is "I've Been Working on the Railroad," which I think of as one of the most innocuous songs in the world. I suppose at least part of the song had been sung in so-called "negro dialect," but all traces of racism had been removed from that song by the time I learned it in the mid-1950s.

And then there are Stephen C. Foster songs, which are admittedly a problem. Foster wrote a lot of good songs, and I love to sing a number of them. Most of them really aren't objectionable, but I do like to sing "Old Black Joe," which I've sung since I was a kid. I sing it less often now, because I know many people might object - but I still do sing it when I'm with people I don't think will be offended. It's mostly a song about a man growing old and missing happier times. But I don't think it's awful to think that old black men had some good memories of their younger days and their loved ones from those days.

A book club I belong to, just finished reading Ghosts of Gold Mountain, a book about the Chinese laborers who built the Transcontinental Railroad across the Sierra in California. We were talking about anti-Chinese racism that still exists in California, and I pulled out my copy of Lingenfelter-Dwyer's Songs of the American West and read a few verses from a couple "John Chinaman" songs to illustrate this racism. I explained how people continually come to Mudcat and say how cute these racist songs are. The next day, a member of the group emailed me to say that it was inappropriate for me to read verses from those songs. even though I expressed disapproval of the songs and used them to illustrate racism, he still insisted that he was offended by my reading of those songs and was insulted that I had not considered the feelings of others when I read the songs. After an exchange of several emails that didn't bring any resolution to the disagreement, I ended by saying that although I had no intention to offend anyone, I acknowledged that he was offended. And if he chose to be offended by what I felt I had reason to day, so be it. I wonder if he'll ever speak to me again. People don't handle disagreement very well nowadays.

-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 03:10 PM

Why should the racists have all the best tunes?

As opposed to The Devil.

"Turkey in the straw" has been mentioned and the melodies of many of the offending songs are also very good tunes.
So, what's wrong with playing these in appropriate circumstances? The titles could even be changed, if necessary.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 02:53 PM

Ok, a poster above said:

I'm not aware of any racist content in ... Van Diemen's Land...

Van Dieman's land being the name given to what is now called Tasmania by white colonials who considered it uninhabited? Really? Nothing racist?

This is the problem. The lack of awareness, I mean.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Gilly
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 01:31 PM

No they are not. End of.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 12:30 PM

Beat me to it, Stilly!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 10:21 AM

Today on Weekend Edition Saturday (National Public Radio) there was a discussion that contributes to this discussion:

Breaking Down The Legacy Of Race In Traditional Music In America

The audio of the story isn't up until probably Sunday, but there is a substantial story posted on the link (it may be the transcribed story).

The symbols of America's racist past have been under intense scrutiny since the protests against police brutality erupted nationwide. The confederate flag and other monuments from that era have been disappearing from public spaces — both by force and legislation.

But what about the stereotypes and racist imagery in America's musical legacy? The traditional music community is reckoning with some of the songs from its past that are kept alive today through festivals and concerts. For Jake Blount, one musician leading that effort, his love for traditional music started with the banjo.

"The banjo is descended from a number of different African instruments, but when it came to the United States, the first place it found a real home was [among] the slaves in the Chesapeake Bay region, who were my ancestors," he says.

The link between his ancestral past and music just kept unfolding along with the events he saw happening in real time.

"When the Black Lives Matter movement started kicking into full force, particularly right after Trayvon Martin was killed, I remember going upstairs into the attic of my grandparents house in Maine and reading through these books of old spirituals and songs, kind of trying to figure out what my ancestors were thinking and feeling and how they would have coped with this sort of violence," Blount says.

link The Angels Done Bowed Down - Jake Blount - Spider Tales

Spirituals like "The Angels Done Bowed Down" became his outlet. Blount is 24 years old and a full-time musician skilled in playing the banjo and the fiddle. On his first full-length album released earlier this year, Spider Tales, he included the same spiritual that comforted him back in 2012.

"I've been involved in Black Lives Matter and in that work for as long as I've been involved in traditional music," he says, "and often have felt that my friends who are also working on that and I were sort of outliers."

Traditional music is a broad term for songs that were passed down. The most popular ones like sea shanties and folk songs date back to the 19th century. And festivals have been a way to keep them alive.

But some of the songs made Blount feel uncomfortable, like "Turkey In the Straw." White fiddlers in blackface used to play the tune in minstrel shows, and it's been recorded with racist lyrics.

"I know what it makes me feel when I'm at a fiddle festival and I hear someone play 'Turkey in the Straw,' " Blount says. "When I hear that, I will go up to the person and say, 'You should stop,' but I didn't feel empowered to do that for a very long time."

Other songs contain racial slurs, or demeaning stereotypes. Some musicians have argued to revise these songs; others want to stop singing them altogether, and that has been an emerging debate over the last couple of years, especially at the Youth Traditional Song Weekend that happens at the beginning of each year. It's an event that started seven years ago as a space for younger fans of traditional music. 2020 was Blount's first year, and he was leading three workshops focused on music from the Black community. But he told me that when he was first asked to do this, he was hesitant.

"I've always been leery of being like the tour guide to Black culture," Blount says. "There are two Black people here, I think, and that to me has just always been a difficult thing to think about."

Blount is right. Out of almost 200 attendees, there were only two Black people at the festival and only around five people of color total. But there is a clear commitment to be inclusive. Signs are posted in the dining hall of the festival grounds stating: "Consider modifying lyrics, be aware of sensitive and offensive content." But there are still slip ups.

link Rolling Down to Old Maui

In one room, people are singing so loudly it can be heard outside. And when someone introduces the beloved sea shanty, "Rolling Down to Old Maui," the room electrifies even more.

But when the song is over, 13-year-old Nadia Tell interjects:

"Can I make a note?" she asks. " 'Kanakas' is a racial slur."

"Whoa, it is?" someone asks.

"Yes, it is," Tell says. "And if it's possible, it scans perfectly fine to say 'Hawaiians' instead."

The line she's referencing in the song is: "And now we're anchoured in the bay / With the Kanakas all around." The word falls into a grey area. Kanakas does mean "person" in Hawaiian, but white people have used it in the past to insult and demean Pacific Islanders. And so in this case it's best not to sing that line.

"Many of the people who I sing with, I suspect they haven't really thought about this before," says Amanda Witman of Brattleboro, Vt.

Whitman is white, as is the group she leads back home that sings mostly in pubs. She tells me that her experience discussing race has been limited, but that's why she attended the Youth Traditional Song Weekend.

"Racism comes up in songs that have been sung for years and years," she says, "And trying to figure out how to have those conversations is really challenging."

Jake Blount's approach to this debate isn't about revising the songs. Instead, he sees a larger need to expand the cannon of traditional music and teach people about how deep the roots of this music are.

"So the topic of this workshop," he tells the group gathered, "is sort of the underlying threads that run through much of the Black folk song from the South and elsewhere that describes pieces of our lives that maybe we were not empowered to share openly in regular discussion."

photo

Each workshop is full. People are sitting on the ground and filling each corner of the room. Blount is quiet but commanding. He is, after all, teaching songs about some of the most painful parts of Black history to a room of mostly white people.

The first song Blount introduces is called "Dead And Gone." Others call it "Dear and Gone." It's about the grief and loss of slaves and other Black people who were killed and never found.

"These songs speak to this thing that happened a long time ago, and I think we need to understand them in the context of slavery, in the context of Jim Crow," Blount says. "We also need to understand that there's a reason they still resonate and why there are still Black people out there singing them today."

For each song, Blount explains the context and plays a recorded version then invites the room to learn how to sing it with him. He also leads a conversation on when it's appropriate to sing these songs, and when it's not. And this particular song has a powerful effect on the room:

"It was just silent. You could hear a pin drop and you know, we're loud people here," he says. "I really felt that people understood the intensity of what it was about."

Six months after the festival and with the conversation around race intensifying, Blount says people are starting to give credit to the contributions of the Black community, and that includes traditional music and instruments, like the banjo. But looking back, Blount says he still wouldn't have changed anything about those workshops.

"I think they almost became more relevant in that I was trying to capture these narratives of desperation and anger, the darker sides of the African American musical tradition," he says. "Right now, it's more important than ever that people recognize this didn't come from out of nowhere. This has been something that's been building up over the course of centuries.

"I know that some of the folks who were at those workshops have told me they've been thinking back really hard on those songs ," he continues. "And I think, were I to write up new course descriptions today, I might write up the same ones."

Even though festivals have been put on pause due to the pandemic, Blount says he's hopeful that when they do come back, they'll look a lot and sound a lot different to reflect the contributions of Black Americans on our musical traditions.


I don't usually post the entire story, and the NPR stories are usually searchable and durable, but sometimes the links are buried over time.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 08:31 AM

Yes indeed, a very interesting and well-argued post from Gibb.

'I am confident in saying that the vast majority of chanty genre songs that have been documented with the word "n-" contained that word precisely because they were songs sung by Black people of the Americas. "N-" in song was "Black language."'

This is exactly what I was trying to hint at in my post of 03 June, though - lacking the confidence of Gibb's knowledge of the genre - I confined myself to a hint. However, I'm less sure about Gibb's follow-up:

'If a non-Black sang it, he was singing Black language... this was some indication of that person's acculturation to the [conveniently, not exclusively labeled] Black voice...'

The problem with that is that the word in question has long been used by white communities as a disrespectful term, and now carries all that baggage when articulated by a white person. There are not a great number people of colour in attendance at English folk clubs (the idea that they might be attracted by white singers using 'N--' is bizarre!), but neither are there zero - and of course there are many white people who object to the word too, 'bourgeois' or not. So we're back with contextualization, since no audience, in an English folk club or elsewhere, is going to possess Gibb's depth of knowledge: is the shanty singer then to preface 'Hog-eye Man' with an explanation of the black heritage of the song, and does that then make it OK to sing unexpurgated? Or is it being suggested that the white singer should avoid shanties altogether, on grounds of cultural appropriation (except that this musical form was appropriated by English shantymen 150 years ago)?

Gibb led off with:
'Are any traditional songs NOT racist? The architects of the "folk music" concept that held sway through the 20th c. conceived of folk as racial.'

I detect a swipe at Cecil Sharp here, and there is indeed some truth in the statement - although it should be pointed out that Sharp used 'racial' interchangeably with 'national', which in a modern context is not quite the same thing. Folk club traditional repertoire still owes a lot to Sharp and to the MacColl-Seeger 'sing from your own culture' policy - which could be viewed as 'racist', but alternatively as a counter to cultural appropriation. But if English folk revivals are to be considered racist for prioritizing a particular musical culture, should not the same apply to singers and musicians performing 'Irish', 'Scottish' or 'French-Canadian' music, never mind bluegrass and a hundred other genres born in relatively homogeneous and static populations. Even the racially-mixed Louisiana bayous maintained separate white and black musical traditions for generations.

The world is changing all the time, as communications become easier, populations less static and musicians more inclined to experiment. However, as Gibb points out, we are where we are, and need to take decisions based on the performance contexts we inhabit now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Rigby
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 07:02 AM

Thank you Gibb Sahib, that was one of the best posts I've ever read on this forum, and has helped me to articulate why I feel uneasy about the focus on 'bad words' or 'bad songs'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 06:25 AM

Thing is, Jim, those of us who are trying to confine this to talking about songs in folk clubs, and those of us who are itching to bring wider world issues into it, are talking past each other. There's a thread on the racial killing below the line.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 06:18 AM

"we were all white, of course"
A telling phrase - surely
Like Mudcat, recently, I wouldn't invite my Irish friends to join us
Is this really taking place on the same forum as the reports of world-wide demonstrations over racism ?
Where's VICTOR MELDREW whwn you need him ?
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 06:01 AM

And that, to me, is the practicality of it, stated in my last post. I should like to thank Gibb for his thoughtful post which must have taken a good while to put together. Almost my favourite sentence from it, and one which addresses the crux of the thread matter, is the second-last one, where he says "The question of racist-word songs in an English (predominantly White) folk club context, I think, is not very challenging." I went to our folk club just about every Friday for the six or seven years from my discovery of it to its demise, and I can't remember a single moment of overt racial discomfort (we were all white, of course). And, as I've said in other below-the-line contexts, in many years of teaching in multi-ethnic East London I kept my antennae tuned for racist comments in my classrooms, which I would never let pass, so I wouldn't have missed much in the calmer air of the folk club...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 04:44 AM

"Pardon me for being repetitive, but have any of you considered asking your friends of various skin colours and ethnicities how they feel when you sing those songs to them. ??"

Yep. Simple. 99.999% of people wouldn't do it. Pardon me for being repetitive, but decent folkies, which is nearly all of us, can police ourselves very nicely.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 04:34 AM

Well said, Gibb Sahib. An interesting and sound argument. I am not sure if I fully agree with or even follow some bits. I will have to give it a re-read and some thought. In the meanwhile thank you for a new and interesting perspective.

I can fully appreciate the idea that restricting folk music to being that of your own culture could be racist and this is why we must diversify. I would not see it as inherently wrong for me, for instance, to sing an African folk song or an American shanty at the folk club. I do the latter BTW but not the former as yet. We are after all a global village now :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 04:14 AM

Are any traditional songs NOT racist?

On one side: The architects of the "folk music" concept that held sway through the 20th c. conceived of folk as racial. "Folk" is not "Volk" as "people" as "the majority of ordinary people" but rather as "the people of the ethnic nation, who we deem most purely bred to reflect these (imagined) people." This is why they rejected so-called "popular" music. (And I think we see this rejection, in a form, by the repeated suggestion in this thread that Robeson's song is irrelevant in not being folk song.)

On another side: Other/later contributors to traditional "folk" songs, though they would disavow the racial zealousness of the architects (especially if they are White Anglophone and with respect to White Anglophone ["their own"] stuff) would still fetishize the racial otherness of folk musics, which are consistently attached to ethnic groups as a matter or procedure and, presumable, of importance. They might try to trick you by using the word "culture," but make no mistake that "culture" here is all or entirely contiguous with "ethnic group", which is in turn 1 or 0 degrees of separation from "race"—an essentialized category.

The racism is in one sense entirely "systematic." To tear it from the system is to tear down the very system. And few want that. They enjoy the system. Others don't enjoy the system. The reason why you don't find so many Black people at your English folk club nights is not because somebody once sang "nigger." (*In fact, I believe I could make the argument that if people sang "n-" more, you'd get more Black people there. "N-" is a word of African American "authentic" musical expression far more than it is a word of White English "meta" musical expression.)

My point is, most people who are happy with folk music are happy with its systematic racist nature. You'll get no judgement from me on that, but be honest. I mean, I can say I support the elimination of gender roles -- by which I really mean I am significantly liberal when it comes to gender roles. If gender roles *completely didn't exist* tomorrow though, I'd be lost. There is racism in the system of folk music and you would be lost without it. This is hard to accept.

You may disagree with this entirely. The song is just the song, a neutral thing... until such time a racially derogatory word or idea presents in the lyrics. OK. I'm not interested in going in arguing the systematic racism. I don't hope to convince anyone of this.

I'm more interested in continuing, if you do agree there is some truth in what I'm saying, to see what to do about the "bad words."

I think people who think they have eliminated racism by omitting bad words really don't know folk music. Bless their hearts. I sense a bit of BlackAcornUK's comments in this.

Even if we accept the music is systematically racist -- thus it's not possible to eliminate racism without eliminating folk music -- I don't think it is hypocritical to call for the omission of bad words. Racism is not an all or nothing thing. It makes sense to minimize it. I suspect this is the place of most of us.

Yet if that is the case, if we are in the world of "minimizing" (more or less, while always there) instead of in the world of all/nothing (that which I believe is idealistic and incorrect), we are in an uncomfortable position indeed. We can't decisively scorn the user of bad words if we know the music is racist (to some degree) even *without* those bad words. And we might legitimately wonder whether we might *sometimes* use those bad words since, after all, there are grey areas and the system is already contaminated and the degree of minimizing achieved by omission is pretty intangible. And we don't like that we're even going down these roads but can't help going down them for the sake of intellectual honesty. I think I sense some Steve Shaw in this.

It would be easier if someone could just enforce an ideological code of conduct, right? Ideologues don't have to think so much.

In the meantime, we have songs. We don't have to form them into the molded contructs of "folk" and "traditional." We *can* minimize racism. We *can* query, too, what is the smartest way to combat racism—including questioning a simplistic ideological position that more bad words always means more racism and less bad words always means less racism.

As a case in point, I am confident in saying that the vast majority of chanty genre songs that have been documented with the word "n-" contained that word precisely because they were songs sung by Black people of the Americas. "N-" in song was "Black language." If a non-Black sang it, he was singing Black language, as any White teen mouthing the words to countless current rap songs. In historically surveying chanties, in fact, the presence of the word "n-" -- considered degrading to the *speaker* through its use in the mouth of a white person -- fairly positively identifies the song in question as a song sung by a Black person. To replace that word with "farmer" is to erase the Black voice. And when a non-Black person sang "n-", this was some indication of that person's acculturation to the [conveniently, not exclusively labeled] Black voice -- as in today's hip hop there is a vision (see for example KRS-ONE's articulations) that hip hop is the culture and the voice, and that that culture is potentially muti-racial. Those outside of the hip hop culture will clutch their pearls and attempt to overlay their outsider ideology of whom may say what, but those in the culture have a different view. This is not to say it's not risky though. You'll be outnumbered by outsiders who can't "think" with the logic of your culture, on one hand, while those who share the culture will get great satisfaction from participation.

Has anyone seen the interview between the news agency and (Black American rapper) Lil Wayne? The news interviewers tried to force Lil Wayne into their pedestrian version of Black Lives Matter and he rejected it. They tried to shame him for his bad words. (Echoes of Joe Biden trying to tell his Black interlocutor that he wasn't Black if he didn't vote for Biden!) Lil Wayne is no "Uncle Tom," and I think it's dishonorable to try to dismiss Lil Wayne as ignorant, as a commercial sell out, etc. If we respect Black lives including Lil Wayne's, we have to acknowledge that his position is one engaged with an alternative way of thinking.
https://youtu.be/L6mBZSQdGCE

The question of using bad words in a folk club seems, I think, a simple matter. Don't do it if you value you status in that community. Yet isn't the folk club a bourgeois institution, engaged in much artifice? I think it's rich to say the word "n-" doesn't belong to the White folk song singer in the club, not because I think it does belong to him/her, but because it implies that the song otherwise (with the word omitted) belongs to him/her. I'd question that.
I'm reminded of another interview with film director Tarantino, where the interviewer asked Tarantino, chidingly, why he feels it necessary to put so much violence in his films. Tarantino answered something like, "Because it's so much fun!"
https://youtu.be/7EEpTrPb0-c
The interviewer cannot be expected to understand, and Tarantino concludes by saying he didn't make his movies for her. Likewise the folk club audience cannot be expected to understand, much less accept, bad words in songs. There are others, however, who will, and those people are not more racist than the folk club audience. Quite possibly, those people are even making music in a more exciting space.

Fredrick Douglass hated minstrel music. He thought it was trash. W.E.B. Du Bois, on the other hand, suggested seeing minstrel music as a triumph of African American culture. Douglass' view, I imagine, is easy to understand according to conventional thought, whereas Du Bois' is challenging. Do we dismiss Du Bois as an ignoramus or take up the challenge of understanding his position?—an anti-racism that, paradoxically, embraces something that conventional wisdom sees as plainly racist.

The question of racist-word songs in an English (predominantly White) folk club context, I think, is not very challenging. But an intellectually honest query of racist-word songs *not limited to that assume context* is something I think requires hearing multiple valid perspectives.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:53 AM

"Well, of course. Everone has the right to offend."
Individuals maybe - that comes with having controversial ideas (which ened to offend nearly everybody)
Nobody should have the right to offend entire ethnic groups - nobody
The worst of that is now illegal in Britain - it should be everywhere
The last ten years have impacted on all our lives because the race vard has been bought into politics again and re-awoken the dormant Xenophobia those of us brought up in post Empire Britain took in with our school milk
I'm afraid you can't separate racism from either its politics or its social implications - it has been part of British life since 2016 and it gave the world an insane US President
It shouldn't be a long-running detailed issue here, but it's very much a part of why racism should be a thing of the past forever - in all forms
If you need evidence of this, I can think of six million witnesses immediately from my lifetime
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 01:16 AM

very good point Starship.context,for example a husband singing to his wife in private is very different from a song sung in a public place to strangers


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 09:19 PM

Pardon me for being repetitive, but have any of you considered asking your friends of various skin colours and ethnicities how they feel when you sing those songs to them. ??


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 03:51 PM

" I am not claiming the right to do anything nor denying anyone else. "
You are claiming the right to offend races and ethnic groups by singing songs that give offence becao=ause of ther origins or their colour

Well, of course. Everone has the right to offend.
After which people may learn something about them.
And sometimes, people already know something significant about the person singing.

But I don't know if this is the case in the UK.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 03:40 PM

I'm glad you wouldn't sing them yourself, Dave, and likewise it was welcome to read your comments about mumming and 'a mon like thee' the other day.

By talking of 'minority interest', I do think you're playing down the cumulative 'scale of the scene' - definitely, far more people in the UK, probably hundreds of thousands, take part in folk music and dance (on a continuum from grass roots, to paying gigs, to festivals) than in far-right politics; that's partly why the BNP tried so hard to get a foot in the door previously, and I share Jim's eagerness for us to not inadvertently give their successors false encouragement to return.

Very sadly, I have been noticing more of this sort of thing again recently, tbh. One of the main Youtube accounts that has shared Peter Bellamy tracks - including all of The Transports and When I Die - also actively uploads videos of Oswald Moseley and Enoch Powell.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 03:37 PM

This conversation, as it progressed through yesterday, was not only on topic but it covered a lot of good points. To let the politics slip in and turn it into a slug fest does a disservice to all of the thoughtful posts so far.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...


This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 30 April 4:30 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 2022 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.