Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:48 PM

Good Grief, will the Ligger catch the Pike

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:28 PM

Just catching up. It'll be no surprise that I tend to agree with Jim on the points covered above.

Jumping back to my own last interactions - this strikes me as a fairly contradictory comment, Dave:

'No. Sorry. Pure cop out. All you have done is passed the responsibility elsewhere. I shall rephrase the question. What lyrics should cross the line to get you disciplined at work, kicked out of a political party or censured at a music venue? There are the obvious ones that have been mentioned. There are lyrics that are offensive to many other people. Should they all be banned or censored? And, yet again, who decides?'

Surely the 'cop-out' is to reject the challenge of trying to locate the line at all?

The 'lines' I refer to above aren't accidental or arbitrary. On the issue of racial hatred, we're fortunate to have laws that are broadly in alignment with prevailing public opinion and which offer a degree of protection to those most likely to be harmed - either directly by hate speech consciously targeted at them, or by the pernicious environment that casual racism allows to flourish.

Feeding into the law - but going further - are a set of social norms that form a part of the same consensus. Of course, we use these to relate to each other (but they can slip their moorings on the internet between strangers; though of course I can't be certain, I'm cautiously confident that Steve *wouldn't* be boldly writing the n-word in letters to his doctor or dentist). Basically, they help to establish what sort of speech is unacceptable or unreasonable in our interactions, beyond what is not actually illegal.

It's also according to these norms that things like the disciplinary processes of the workplace and mainstream membership bodies are oriented.

These norms undergo a certain degree of flux, but over time (and barring major sudden realignments in either direction) they tend to incrementally shift towards greater protections for groups that might be subject to prejudice. Likewise, this social contract often shifts towards increasing empathy for those same groups, and appreciation of the reasons to not flaunt words that - whatever the intention - can cause real hurt.

So - when tackling the vexed question of, 'where is the line to be drawn?' - pointing to these sorts of procedures isn't 'copping out', it's navigating by way-markers established by a social consensus that we all play a part in.

Some may wish to go further (and may get there over time, as sensibilities are continuously recalibrated); some may reject this line. But, in the absence of universal agreement between individuals (which, as we see here, is difficult!), the social consensus in as far as it can be discerned - ie, in the policies of the organisations that we all help to shape the culture of - seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable guide.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:20 PM

Never heard about Golden Slippers (whether "on them" or "Oh, dem") except on the soundtracks of Westerns, but I'm certain to hear "Dixie" at least once each Summer, followed by "Battle-Hymn of the Republic", since this particular medley is part of the repertoire of a regular at a pub in a village in Ireland. Probably many people sing this pairing, and no doubt there was some thought of "reconciliation" when Elvis put them together, but it's unlikely that a Civil War in another country would be foremost among listeners' thoughts when hearing songs more than a century and a half old. I can't sing the first easily, but from memory supplied the singer with a verse printed in a song-book of the late nineteenth century but never heard, as far as I'm aware:

"[two-syllable female name] married Will the weaver,
Will had a face like a butcher's cleaver, Look away! Look away...&c.

No doubt this particular combination of old songs will indeed come under scrutiny in these interesting times. I think it was one of the Adams politicians in America who considered the Slavery issue to be, as it were, "unfinished business" from their War of Independence. Sometimes, issues are not fully settled the first time round; 1789, 1830, 1848, 1870 is an interesting sequence from the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:00 PM

"No, I think this thread is about whether traditional songs with racist meanings should be sung at all,"

Pick out my words as much as you like, Maggie. No sweat. But I don't agree with this. To couch it in different terms, you appear to be saying that there's a choice between banning the songs or not. That "no" sounds rather authoritarian to me. Well that's a bad choice. It's been well said by a number of posters here that there are many subjects in songs that could offend someone or other. Rebel Irish songs could whip up enough hate to threaten people, for example. But I'm a very simple man. So all I want to know is (a) who decides what songs shouldn't be sung at all, or (b) why we can't, in civilised and democratic countries, simply and tacitly police ourselves? See my earlier remark about the ethos of folk clubs...So, really, what's the issue? Much more to say but I'm getting fed up of repeating myself...

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 03:50 PM

False equivalence, Jim. We are talking about singing minority interest songs in limited venues to a tiny audience. Not major race related hate crimes.

Finished , I think

No you don't. You are not getting away with that "mask slipping" comment that easily. Just what are you implying?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 03:31 PM

"But it happens. "
Tough if you can't get work becaiuseof your colout ot your home is targetted by graffiti or yuor kids ket the shit kicked out of them at school
Worth more than a shrug of the shoulders to the human beings I prefer to associate with Dave
Mask slipping time down South - to borrow from an old 'darkie' song
Finished , I think
Jim

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 01:31 PM

You triggered a memory, ABCD, of Whitby many years ago when the Plough, a Sam Smith's pub, still allowed music. One of the regular sets of the session was a medley of American South music. It included Dixie to which the Yorkshire contingent always sang "I wish I were in Dewsbury, pronounced jowsbry, followed by "On them golden slippers". Would that be crowned upon nowadays?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 01:02 PM

Thinking, then, of how Radio works, and how the opening notes of a familiar melody, it seems, are sufficient to cause the song's entire meaning to "wash over" a listener, is it only because so few people know the words to "Liliburlero" (let alone its historical context) that the BBC can get away with using a specifically anti-Catholic song as a signature tune? Now that the nature of this song, and therefore its "associations" to those who know of it, has been made explicit, I trust there will be as powerful and persistent publicity against this use as there has been about all those other songs which are derogatory towards other defined groups.
I'm still waiting to know if I have permission to whistle any of Stephen C Foster's many elegant melodies.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 12:40 PM

The term is offensive is now racially itself

I have no idea what that is even supposed to mean.

As to the rest. Absolutely, we should not give offence intentionally. But it happens. Black people, quite rightly, take offence at white people calling them niggers. Jews take offence at anyone calling them Yids. I take offence at being called a bastard Brit. Others take offence at absolutely anything.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 12:39 PM

The whole point of this angst-ridden discussion is to discern whether or not songs containing certain words or sentiments can be used to promote racism.

No, I think this thread is about whether traditional songs with racist meanings should be sung at all, especially by performers who are not African American (or other dark races represented in the songs, depending on where the colonizers are from). If a song has been appropriated by the race that was the subject of the song, they have a particular platform from which to sing (and certainly alter the meaning). This is what Derrida said was "writing back to the center," the colonized speaking back to the empire. What Spivak means when she asks "can the subaltern speak?"

A song exists only when it's sung. A song in itself, written on a sheet of paper or existing only in the head of a folk singer, can't be racist until the middle man (or woman) makes it racist.

In our post-modern world the theory of the meaning of a word depends upon the reader and or listener. If you write or sing "tree" you may be thinking of the stately oaks near your home (or whatever trees you imprinted on as you grew up). I instead see a tall huge Douglas fir, based upon my world view and experience of trees.

But when you start singing, especially a familiar tune, there is an entire package of information that comes through to the listener, and it is clear long before you get to that troublesome word. Depending on the song, sometimes the first few notes are all that are needed for the entire song's meaning to wash over you if you know it well. Think of how radio works - you hear a distinctive cow bell or guitar or drum riff and you know exactly what song is starting to play. Individual performers may not have such a distinctive beginnings to the folk songs they sing, but the same effect happens, just a little slower than when a standard recording is played, as a knowing audience recognizes the tune and the opening words.

I didn't come back to flog this topic, and I'm sorry to keep picking Steve's words to illustrate my points. He at least gives me a point to pull in some graduate school literary theory that is useful to help position the singer, the song, the words, and the listener.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 11:51 AM

"Of course it's about offending people."
The term is offensive is now racially itself - if you refuse to recognise that we have nothing to say to each other Dave (if we ever had)
We have no right to use these terms and claim we don't mean to give offence while refusing Davidsion and Manniing to do the same
It really isn't "the way I tell 'em" - it is what is being told that is the problem
Jim

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 11:50 AM

I suppose if I sing a song about you being a kiddie fiddler, its ok, so long as I use a traditional tune? Or if a song points out how your granddad fixed bayonets on Indians to bring them into line and how you should be ashamed? Funnily enough, there are such songs and they are traditional. Ask yourself if your prime objective is racism or traditional music.

If you think it will make some people feel dismay, if you feel it might be offensive to people and put them down because of their race, creed etc, rather than their actions and opinions then it possibly isn't a good idea to be a twat.

Bad enough the Queen smiling at Edinburgh tattoo whilst the bagpipes play Siege of Delhi.. At least Carthy points out the disgusting origins of the tune..

Reminds me of a folk club organiser who, when paying us afterwards told us to watch our van if we are going for a curry afterwards as "darkies" hang around near here. He had been applauding whilst his mate sang Beko Drum as well.. Ignorance is ignorant.

No. Racism isn't acceptable. Never was, it's just that ignorance and bigotry is still popular amongst grunts.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 10:32 AM

this is not about offending people

Of course it's about offending people. If no one was offended by the songs in question we would not be having this discussion.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 09:48 AM

"Words like n***** were telling it as it was than - now it is a term regularly used as abuse - by people on the street, by the police, bt openly racist scumbags like Jim Davidson who one boasted publicly, "I'm not prejudices I hate all the fuckers"
Bernard Manning made Britain roll in the aisles with his contempt for The Irish
That has been stopped elsewhere because it has been deemed offensive - why not in folk clubs"

Well you've just made the point for us, Jim. Manning and Davidson deliberately set out to be openly racist. Context is everything (you're beginning to sound like a parrot, Steve...) It entirely depends on how stuff is put across in folk clubs. In my experience, I'm supposing that putting forth an "iffy" song by someone with racist intent would be instantly shatupon by any folk club audience I've seen. In fact, the ethos of folk clubs wouldn't permit stuff to be put across that way in any case. Maybe somebody here knows of a different type of folk club...

And has it really been stopped elsewhere? And if you really want to tell it like it is, it's nigger, not n*****. Guardian style guide: no asterisks in naughty words. Type the word in full or don't use it at all.

I think I might be calling for self-policing, which is the democratic way forward. Unless someone has the answer to Dave's much-asked but still-unanswered question...

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 09:32 AM

I wouldn't sing it anyway Dick
Years ago I had noproblems with songs about Blacklegs like Blackleg Miner, but resrearches into the experiences of many of the Irish who took these jobs after The Famine to feed their starving families back home has made me realise that things are nt as simple as they appeared to be and, in many cases they were as much victims as were those whose jobs they were taking
That's the problem wen you lift the corner to see what's underneath
Jim

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 08:44 AM

I was a bit taken aback that I had not notice the Chinese People working in the sheep-sheds being compared to a deforming disease in a song I have been listening to over half my lif,
Why not just sing blacklegs for that line

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 08:28 AM

I think that's a little simplistic Steve
When these songs were made the terms used were commonplace - the language of the day and not necessarily meant to give offence
Words like n***** were telling it as it was than - now it is a term regularly used as abuse - by people on the street, by the police, bt openly racist scumbags like Jim Davidson who one boasted publicly, "I'm not prejudices I hate all the fuckers"
Bernard Manning made Britain roll in the aisles with his contempt for The Irish
That has been stopped elsewhere because it has been deemed offensive - why not in folk clubs
I was a bit taken aback that I had not notice the Chinese People working in the sheep-sheds being compared to a deforming disease in a song I have been listening to over half my life
For me, the last week has underlined the fact that it's time we were moving on
It's not a bad litmus test for a singer to put themselves in the place of the people being sung about when deciding wht that should do with these songs - let's face it - there aren't that may of them, but that tends to make them stick out

I don't believe showing your disapproval of them is 'the thin end of the wedge' but I do belive that letting them through on the nod might wall be
I've answered Dave's scattergun question - this is not about offending people - it's about allowing people to go through life uninsulted or unpesecuted because oif their colour, or place of origin or religion
I am a white male born in Britain yet I have been referred to as a "bogtrotter" and more recently "a supporter of the IRA" because I choose to live in The West of Ireland
Ah sure - oi don't loik that one bit
Jim

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 07:15 AM

The whole point of this angst-ridden discussion is to discern whether or not songs containing certain words or sentiments can be used to promote racism. A song exists only when it's sung. A song in itself, written on a sheet of paper or existing only in the head of a folk singer, can't be racist until the middle man (or woman) makes it racist. Equally, the middle man can make that same song anti-racist by the wise drawing of context. It's what we do with what we've got. We are all free to ignore songs that make us uncomfortable. We don't have to sing them or hear them. We can even muck about with the words (thereby risking shattering our credibility). But as soon as someone tells you that you mustn't/shouldn't sing them/they should be banned, etc., then you are entitled to ask that person Dave's persistent but as yet unanswered question, who's going to do the policing? Shall we hold an election?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 06:47 AM

In the not-too-distant past we thought we had the major problems solved - I used to sing a song called 'Te Colout-Bar Strike, by a Lono Railwayman who wrote it about the time the Kings Crosss Railway workers went on strike to prevent the employment of West Indian Labour
I was told quite firmly that there was no need for such songs any more because that type of "prejudice and ignorance" was "a thing of the past"
I doubt if that advice would be given today (just as well I haven't forgotten the song)
Jim

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 06:40 AM

"racist folk songs"
The rcism it promotes or makes acceptable can Steve
Jim

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 06:32 AM

For consistency, and equality, should someone not insist we have,

"Ho, brother T----, dost hear de decree..."?

And someone else decry the stylised "dialectal" spelling, in some ways of the song (certainly the way I encountered it first)?   
But then, there are plenty of songs with phonetic approximations to Irish, and Scottish, pronunciation and with a "humorous" intention behind them; better turn some attention to that, as well (in the interests of genuine equality, of course). After all, if GUEST instructs me so confidently not to sing anything by Foster because of "association", these examples of direct mockery must be even worse; ain't dat de troof? And is it all right to whistle the airs of these songs, though sedulously avoiding anything at all associated with Slavery (at least, as practised in the Americas during a couple of centuries)?I'd appreciate an answer, preferably one which includes some attention to a State Broadcaster using the air of the song cited, given its explicit mockery.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 05:33 AM

Er, I don't think that the singing of "racist folk songs" or plantation songs, undesirable though they be, gets petrol poured through letter boxes either...

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 05:03 AM

WE are talking about somethins that has put many thousands on the street as I write Dave
How man "Irish rebel songs? Christian hymns? Left wing songs get petrol poured through letter boxes in your experience ?
Try asking the ethinaclly cleaned Travellers who are fighting for their existence - the communities that gave us Jeannie Robertson, The Stewarts, The Dorans (to keep this in a musical context
Are you for real ?
Jim

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Joe G
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:42 AM

Well said Jim!

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:09 AM

What about football chants? Irish rebel songs? Christian hymns? Left wing songs?

They will all offend someone. So where is the line drawn and who draws it?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 03:37 AM

Stephen Foster , he associated with a Pittsburgh-area abolitionist leader named Charles Shiras, and wrote an abolitionist play himself. Many of his songs had Southern themes, yet Foster never lived in the South and visited it only once, during his 1852 honeymoon. NOTHING RACIST IN THIS ONE
Let us pause in life's pleasures and count its many tears
While we all sup sorrow with the poor
There's a song that will linger forever in our ears
Oh, hard times, come again no more.
'Tis the song, the sign of the weary
Hard times, hard times, come again no more
Many days you have lingered all around my cabin door
Oh hard times, come again no more.
While we seek mirth and beauty and music light and gay
There are frail forms fainting at the door
Though their voices are silent, their pleading looks will say
Oh, hard times, come again no more.
'Tis the song, the sign of the weary
Hard times, hard times, come again no more
Many days you have lingered all around my cabin door
Oh hard times, come again no more.
There's a pale drooping maiden who toils her life away
With a worn heart, whose better days are o'er
Though her voice it would be merry, 'tis sighing all the day
Oh, hard times, come again no more.
'Tis the song, the sign of the weary
Hard times, hard times, come again no more
Many days you have lingered all around my cabin door
Oh hard times, come again no more.
'Tis the song, the sign of the weary
Hard times, hard times, come again no more
Many days you have lingered all around my cabin door
Oh hard times, come again no more.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 03:36 AM

I'm reading the thread title as the song's racism is a foregone conclusion.

Acorn: as discussed by many above - if driven by historical accuracy, with such an immense store of songs to choose from, what is the reasonable excuse for actively choosing to perform the songs that are likely to be considered racist by many (most?) contemporary audiences?

I've not seen any evidence shanties and naval science were ever in the same room, alone or together. Ergo, I would introduce your predetermined 'scientific' findings and facts as pirate opera. ie: Not science.

The most blatantly racist (by any metric) maritime work song sub-genre also being far-and-away the most African/African-American/Caribbean sourced & influenced; used primarily to enhort and exhort exceptionally diverse cohorts whilst being deliberately/ignorantly hurtful & offensive to its own creators & practitioners. Oy.

You also have never used “celeusma” in a sentence, have you?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 03:24 AM

"And, yet again, who decides?"
Common sense and humanity - surely
I think it has already been said that nobody is suggesting "banning" anything, though even the rightest of Governments have been forced to recognise that there is line not to be crossed and have introduced 'anti-hate laws to protect the most vulnerable.
It isn't what should be banned but what audiences in out multi-racial, multi-cultural society should have to tolerate
Sre - people don't have to turn up to venues where this shit takes place - on the other hand, there are places like notrious East London pub, 'The Blade Bone' where people who wish to indulge can strut their stuff in the privacy of their own kind
In the light o what' is now taking place on the streets of the world following the US murder, should there be any doubt on this matter?
Jim

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 03:05 AM

I think content that could realistically pass the threshold to see people disciplined from work, or kicked out of a political party

No. Sorry. Pure cop out. All you have done is passed the responsibility elsewhere. I shall rephrase the question. What lyrics should cross the line to get you disciplined at work, kicked out of a political party or censured at a music venue? There are the obvious ones that have been mentioned. There are lyrics that are offensive to many other people. Should they all be banned or censored? And, yet again, who decides?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 02:48 AM

My notes on Lillibulero from a talk Pat and I once gave to our local History Group on songs and History
Jim

Probably the most spectacular example of a ballad influencing the course of history is to be found in the song Lillibulero,
The song is said to have first appeared in Ulster in 1641. Richard Talbot, a Catholic and Royalist, had been made Earl of Tyrconnel after the Restoration, and King James II later appointed him Lord Lieutenant of Ireland where he pursued strong pro-Catholic policies. Even after James was deposed in England, Tyrconnel governed Ireland in James' name. The Irish Catholic forces were eventually defeated by William at the Battle of the Boyne.
The song represents two Irish Catholics gloating over Tyrconnell’s appointment as Lord Lieutenant and goes;

Ho brother Teague, come hear the decree
Lilli burlero, bullen a la;
Ireland’s to have a new deputie,
Lilli burlero, bullen a la.

Ho, by my soul, it is a Talbot;
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
And he will cut every Protestant throat
Lilli burlero, bullen a la

Jonathan Swift, in 1712, named the Whig leader Thomas Wharton as the author, quoting him as claiming to have “whistled a king out of three kingdoms”.

Bishop Burnet’s History of His Own Time, 1724 - 1734, gives a contemporary account of public response to the original song:

A foolish ballad was made at that time, treating the papists, and chiefly the Irish, in a very ridiculous manner, which had a burden, said to be Irish words, lero, lero, lilibulero, that made an impression on the army that cannot be well imagined by those who saw it not. The whole army, and at last all people both in city and country, were singing it perpetually. And perhaps never had so slight a thing so great an effect.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 01:15 AM

nottingham ale uses the air and the song has no connection with racism neither does the air when used in that context.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 01:11 AM

The Stephen Foster issue is one of association. Not all the songs he wrote were racist, but many were - with images of "old folks at home", "Way down upon the Swannee River" etc. The strange thing is that he was not a Southerner, I'm not sure he'd ever even been to the south. But those songs were co-opted and loved by antebellum southerners. There are many wonderful songs amongst them. But now is not the time to sing them. When we sing songs about the good old slavery days (even if that's not explicitly stated), we remind others of the bad old slavery days. It's not a good idea to put those bad old days on a nostalgia pedestal. Is this making sense? the songs are good, now's not the time to sing them and I'm not sure when will be, I guess it would have to be some future time when racism isn't an issue. I doubt that we'll get there in my lifetime unfortunately.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 12:36 AM

(Just to be clear: Steve Shaw's accurate characterisation of "Liliburlero" as an Orangeman's song indicates that a certain anti-Catholicism is inevitably associated with it. Or, is it all right to use the air just as long as few people know this? I had thought the distinction lucid enough already).

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 12:24 AM

Surely you can dream of joys gone by, or even the fond hopes that cheer us and die, without e'er a "Massa" &c to be heard (if you're sufficiently familiar with Foster's work, that is). Is it all right to whistle the tunes? I await your guidance.
Note that I'm not going so far as to suggest that a State broadcasting service should employ as a "signature tune" a melody the words of which could reasonably be seen as racist, anti-semitic, demeaning to women, &c &c &c. That's my objection to "Liliburlero", though I anticipate that this objection won't be quite as fashionable as similar ones.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 11:23 PM

No. Not right now. I wouldn't sing anything that might be construed as racist, why fan the flames? There are plenty of other songs. I'd stay away from Stephen Foster. Now is not the right time to be exploring that "nostalgia for the good old slavery days" esthetic.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 10:15 PM

"Liliburlero" is surely all right: the BBC World Service wouldn't use an air which could reasonably be seen as insulting or demeaning to a defined minority in Britain, would it? Or is it not problematic because so few people know the words, let alone their historical referents? Just as a reminder, the first line contains what might be termed "the 'T' word".
Not "racism", admittedly, but still the perpetuation of prejudice.
Memorable air, nonetheless, whether or no the words are known. Just like many composed by SCFoster.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 06:53 PM

Steve, if trying to have a sensible debate about why racial slurs aren't suitable content for performance by a bunch of mainly white people in a pub is being a 'self-appointed policeman', I'll still gladly choose that role over the alternative one of the non-singer/non-musician who demands the hypothetical right to sing racist lyrics in public.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 06:49 PM

Dave' persistent question as to who should draw the line is very apposite. In democracies where freedom of choice is paramount, if not totally untrammelled freedom of speech (I've never accepted that), policing of the "of-its-time" stuff that we're discussing sits very uncomfortably with the freedoms we enjoy. The policemen are invariably self-appointed, as we see on this thread. Which is not to say that we have freedom without responsibility. But, in order to restrain ourselves as to what this thread should be about, let's just say that those words and those songs are out there, we didn't invent them, and that it's up to us in our modern times to decide what we do with them. That largely has to be on a personal level. Lots of good points have been made here (plus some rubbish ones, but hey, that's debate...). Thank goodness that I play tunes and don't sing songs. But I still won't play Lillibullero, that Orangeman's tune... :-)

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 06:49 PM

(Workingtonman also made that last point very well and much more pithily above...)

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 06:46 PM

Phil, as discussed by many above - if driven by historical accuracy, with such an immense store of songs to choose from, what is the reasonable excuse for actively choosing to perform the songs that are likely to be considered racist by many (most?) contemporary audiences?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 06:43 PM

Really good post Brian - I totally agree.

Interesting point on Sportsmen Arouse - I enjoy that song to sing, but personally abhor bloodsports. The one time I've sang any of those songs in public (The Innocent Hare), I denounced the practice, and pledged a donation to the League Against Cruel Sports, ha ha. On the wider Copper repertoire, I certainly wouldn't sing Good Ale, for obvious reasons - when I've seen the Coppers do so, they've made a show of apologetically disapproving of the domestic violence lines, in mid-flow, but that still feels a bit far for me.

Dave - in terms of the slippery slope - I think content that could realistically pass the threshold to see people disciplined from work, or kicked out of a political party (eg racial curse words, antisemitic blood libel) that's not a bad place to draw the line?

Rigby - the difference with Sharp, Baring Gould and some peers - as I understand it! - is that their approach (lyrically and melodically, in Sharp's case) flew close to censoring/doctoring the historical record itself. I think there's a strong consensus above that the material shouldn't be doctored at source/in the archives. It's about making conscious, practical choices about what we perform today. And also, to repeat - going through the same evolutionary process of 'variation and selection' which the songs have always gone through.

Although as I keep noting, My Curly Headed Baby isn't a folk song - to take that example, Robeson himself appears to have sung it without racial slurs multiple times on record, later in his career.

To repeat a better example - perhaps you've seen my point about the universal omission these days of the antisemitic verse from 'Tomorrow Shall Be My Dancing Day.'

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 06:27 PM

Steve, I've patiently taken your posts point by point, carefully considered them and responded. If that's somehow trolling, what am I to make of your approach - which seems to have been to pretend you didn't say things that are reflected back to you verbatim; to ignore inconvenient points that totally erode your arguments; and to go on strange rants whilst accusing others of being misguided, pusillanimous, 'white imperialists'(!), and of not living in the country?!

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 05:55 PM

Circus, vaudeville and minstrelsy were not commercially viable for 100+ years without Afro-American/Caribbean patronage. Carnival was never a safe space, still ain't. Some folks go for that, others don't.

The product itself has no intrinsic quality or value. These attributes are perceived one producer & consumer at a time down through the generations.

If one sings shanties to go shopping; play dress up and talk like a pirate for a day, history has nothing to do with it and race is reduced to one (1) of a long list of taboos. Amplified, plastic fiddles are perfectly okay.

If, oth, one studies, recreates & reenacts shanties with the specific intent of period accurate authenticity, one is ethically bound to period accurate moralities… plural. Leave the mobile phone ashore.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 05:38 PM

They're bigoted if they mischievously and intentionally promote racism or other forms of discrimination. If the intention wasn't there, they might still promote prejudice via the words they contain and via the mischief that people of ill will can perpetrate. But such are the risks of life. The flip side is to agree to censorship. This is no easy matter, nor is there an easy answer. And that's because we live in relatively free societies in which we can exercise personal choices. Just beware of self-appointed censors, that's all.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 04:46 PM

there are many thousands of songs we could sing - why would anyone want to choose some old bigotted shite?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Rigby
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 04:13 PM

To BlackAcornUK and others who advocate censoring the lyrics to folk songs: presumably you also feel that Sharp and Baring-Gould acted entirely correctly when they bowdlerised the songs they collected in order to make them acceptable to contemporary mores?

If not, what's the difference?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 03:31 PM

So, those of you who believe the slippery slope is a poor excuse, where do you think the line should be drawn and who should draw it?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 03:02 PM

I seem to remember good old Colin Irwin excoriating Nic Jones for using that whaling song on Penguin Eggs when it was rereleased. In turn, Colin himself was excoriated in the pages of Folk Roots... :-)

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 02:21 PM

"what would you do with such songs? Ban them from being performed in public?"

I'm not into banning stuff, just suggesting that singers might want to think about their repertoire. There are, as Howard said, many songs that are potentially or actually offensive, and I remember ferocious debates about hunting and whaling songs in the 1980s. I used at that time to sing 'The Weary Whaling Ground', justifying it to myself as a song about the exploitation of the crew, which also included a graphic description of the kill that served as a reminder of the horrors of the trade. Others wanted such songs banned altogether. People will draw lines in different places. I can see a justification for singing 'Sir Hugh' with an appropriate introduction, but I still choose not to. I love the Copper Family and wouldn't condemn them for singing 'Sportsmen Arouse', but that doesn't mean I'd want it in my repertoire. I prefer to sing songs I feel positive about in some way, rather than make the excuse (and you did use to hear this in the old days), 'I don't approve of the sentiments of this song, but it has a great chorus / tune etc.'

In the world we inhabit at the moment, the topic of race is extremely sensitive for very obvious reasons. Personally I think a sensitivity to that should over-ride historical accuracy which, to be honest, the folk revival has never cared too much about anyway.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 02:17 PM

That post is full of complete nonsense which utterly and deliberately mischaracterises everything I've said. You are painting me as someone I am not. You are a troll and I'm blanking you from this point on.