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Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?

DigiTrad:
HOUSE CARPENTER
THE DEMON LOVER
THE HOUSE CARPENTER (II)


Related threads:
(origins) Origins: Question about a verse in 'Daemon Lover' (8)
Joe Rae's Daemon Lover (4)
Lyr Req: Child 243 on Bronson (16)
(origins) Origin: House Carpenter (27)
Lyr Req: House Carpenter (#243 - Jean Ritchie) (17)
Pentangle's House Carpenter (8)
Lyr Req: cyril tawney's carpenter's wife (#243) (18)


Dave Ruch 21 Dec 11 - 07:47 AM
John Minear 20 Dec 11 - 08:40 PM
Dave Ruch 20 Dec 11 - 09:24 AM
John Minear 20 Dec 11 - 09:09 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 19 Dec 11 - 06:18 PM
John Minear 19 Dec 11 - 04:02 PM
Bettynh 19 Dec 11 - 03:40 PM
John Minear 19 Dec 11 - 09:13 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 18 Dec 11 - 08:06 PM
Bettynh 18 Dec 11 - 02:50 PM
John Minear 18 Dec 11 - 12:25 PM
John Minear 17 Dec 11 - 09:41 PM
John Minear 17 Dec 11 - 05:06 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 17 Dec 11 - 04:33 PM
John Minear 17 Dec 11 - 03:15 PM
John Minear 16 Dec 11 - 10:40 AM
Desert Dancer 15 Dec 11 - 01:47 PM
John Minear 15 Dec 11 - 09:35 AM
Brian Peters 15 Dec 11 - 08:07 AM
GUEST,julia L 14 Dec 11 - 11:23 PM
GUEST,julia L 14 Dec 11 - 11:11 PM
John Minear 14 Dec 11 - 02:44 PM
John Minear 14 Dec 11 - 06:41 AM
Bettynh 13 Dec 11 - 02:47 PM
John Minear 13 Dec 11 - 09:38 AM
John Minear 12 Dec 11 - 09:06 PM
Desert Dancer 12 Dec 11 - 07:49 PM
John Minear 12 Dec 11 - 04:52 PM
John Minear 12 Dec 11 - 04:04 PM
John Minear 12 Dec 11 - 04:01 PM
John Minear 12 Dec 11 - 03:50 PM
John Minear 12 Dec 11 - 03:35 PM
John Minear 12 Dec 11 - 12:13 PM
John Minear 12 Dec 11 - 12:10 PM
Desert Dancer 12 Dec 11 - 12:08 PM
John Minear 12 Dec 11 - 12:04 PM
Brian Peters 12 Dec 11 - 12:04 PM
John Minear 12 Dec 11 - 11:58 AM
Desert Dancer 12 Dec 11 - 11:55 AM
John Minear 12 Dec 11 - 11:27 AM
John Minear 12 Dec 11 - 11:21 AM
John Minear 12 Dec 11 - 10:48 AM
John Minear 12 Dec 11 - 09:41 AM
John Minear 12 Dec 11 - 09:26 AM
John Minear 12 Dec 11 - 08:59 AM
John Minear 12 Dec 11 - 08:36 AM
John Minear 11 Dec 11 - 06:05 PM
GUEST,gus 11 Dec 11 - 01:40 PM
John Minear 11 Dec 11 - 01:18 PM
John Minear 11 Dec 11 - 12:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 07:47 AM

John,

I don't know that Lois Lobdell would have been from Moriah Center. In fact, Elizabethtown sounds much more likely, as Edith Cutting had lots of family there.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 08:40 PM

Welcome, Dave, and thanks for this additional information on the Edith Cutting collection, and specifically on "Aunt Lois." Also, thanks for double checking the dating of the "Willard" manuscript. 1869 it is. I have spent the evening searching for "Lois Lobdell" in or around the area of Moriah Center. I found Lobdells as some of the earliest settlers at nearby Elizabethtown:

http://www.archive.org/stream/pleasantvalleyhi00brown#page/43/mode/2up

But I was not able to trace them down to a Lois Lobdell. A number of them did end up in Westport, which is/was the home of the daughter of "Aunt Lois". I feel like I'm close but I can't close the gap. In looking at the descendants of Simon Lobdell, I even found an Abigal Lobdell who married a Willard, but they were over in Vermont, and I couldn't trace it on down to anything.   And now I've gone cross-eyed! Maybe somebody else will have better luck than me connecting some of these dots. Thanks again for your help, Dave.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 09:24 AM

Hi all,

As project director for the above-referenced TAUNY website on traditional music in the Adirondack Mountains (NY), I felt fortunate to be able to spend large amounts of time working with various archival materials, and TAUNY's Edith Cutting collection was among them.

Because I still have her files here with me in Buffalo, I'm looking at the Aunt Lois file as I type. The official title of this folder is "Songs from Aunt Lois's papers", and underneath that, written in pencil, is the following:

Lois Lobdell, her daughter is Mrs Joseph Kogma(? tough to make out the last name), RD 2 2192C, Westport NY 12993.

I checked the "6s" against the "4s" on the original ms. and the date is indeed 1869, not 1849.   

I was going to mention anecdotally the 1841-1856 Stevens Douglass ms. (New England family that moved to Western NY in the 1830's, kept chapbook of song texts from 1841-1856), and the fact that they had nine Child ballads but no House Carpenter, but I see you found that online as the recently republished "Pioneer Songster".

Let me know if I can be of any other help!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 09:09 AM

Thanks, Mick, for your continuing sharp eyes on this and the detailed search work. So, until further notice, we are back to "1869" as a dating for the Willard manuscript from the Cutting Collection at TUANY. That is still early and a significant documentation. I'm not aware of any other examples like it.

I spent quite a bit of time over the weekend doing genealogical searches for Sarah A. Willard up in the Moriah Center area, but could not find anything that looked likely. That is tedious work. Thanks for your efforts, Mick.

Here is a "preview" from Google Books of Dr. Cutting's LORE OF AN ADIRONDACK COUNTY.

http://books.google.com/books?id=MElT30avx4wC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Edith+Cutting&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BpTwTqHqF4rf0QHUz5y3Ag&ved=0CDs

This is only a partial and fairly limited sampling of her book, but as near as I could tell she does not mention "Aunt Lois" or "Sarah Willard". I believe we posted this reference earlier here:

thread.cfm?threadid=141964&messages=77#3272591

Dr. Cutting does present two different versions of "The House Carpenter" in this book, but there is no reference to the "Willard" version.

Here is a collection from the middle of the 19th century that she helped edit with her teacher, Dr. Harold W. Thompson. The collection is from the western part of the state of NY, and as near as I can tell does not contain "The House Carpenter."

http://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/?GCOI=80140100413170

I was unable to find any reference in anything else on line about Dr. Cutting that mentions "Sarah Willard."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 06:18 PM

I think we have to take their date. I had another look at the ms and in particular the number 6 against the verse. I had originally assumed it was a normal single loop with no tail, but looking again, there is a diagonal line below left of the 6, but not looking connected to it and which I'd originally taken to be just a mark on the paper. But it does seem as if it might have been the continuation of the loop of the 6, which would make it more like the one in the date.

I also had a look for Sarah A Willard at Moriah Center in some of the censuses (via a free search at ancersty.com - it was linked from a Moriah Center site): Sarah A. Willard. There are a few of them listed for Essex, though none actually listed as at Moriah Center. If you hold the mouse over the census line it gives you some information about them. I'd could have got more information by taking a free trial, but declined to.

There are several sites relating to Moriah Center and I think there's a local history and a genealogy group listed for Moriah; they might be able to help identify her. (I think someone with genealogical experience might be needed for this). There was also a cemetary project for Essex, but it looks as if the two nearest cemetaries to Moriah Center haven't been done yet; I dint's see any Willard in the entries for the other Moriah cemeraries. Of course she may neither have been born (one of the census entries for a Sarah A Willard had estimated dob as 1794 and birthplace England!) there, nor died there.

Mick

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 04:02 PM

I had an email response from Varick Chittenden of TAUNY to my enquiry about the Willard manuscript. Here it is:

"Thanks for your inquiry. FYI, the handwritten copy we have in our archival materials is from a file compiled by Miss Edith Cutting beginning nearly 70 years ago. Now in her late 80s, Miss Cutting, who collected largely from family and neighbors in her native northeastern Adirondacks and the Champlain Valley, was a student of the legendary Dr. Harold Thompson and did meritorious fieldwork in those days. She donated some of her large collection to TAUNY, from which this one piece comes.

The limited info on the House Carpenter is: from Cutting's "Songs from Aunt Lois" file, and it is signed Sarah A Willard, Moriah Center NY, April 28, 1869."

They say the date is "1869". That should be authoritative, but it sure looks like "49". I've come across Miss Cutting's name before and we can look further there. I wonder who "Aunt Lois" was. And let me take this opportunity to credit "The Edith Cutting Collection in the TAUNY Archives" for our use of this material. And a big thanks to Varick Chittenden for getting back to me!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Bettynh
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 03:40 PM

Have you read Thoreau's Maine Woods? He describes travelling from his home, in civilized Concord, Mass. to several Maine destinations in 1846, 1853, and 1857, passing many farmsteads, logging camps, and Indian settlements while heading for "pure nature." He's fairly meticulous in describing the reading material available in the woods, but the only mention of singing is an Indian who knew some hymns.

My family also arrived in New England (first Boston, then Conn.) in the early 1700s. My branch of that family was Loyalist - they migrated from New England to St. John, NB about 1800, and settled along the St. John River. My grandfather, two brothers, and a sister came to southern NH for work in 1900. I remember one of my grandfather's brothers bursting into verse with little prompting, and he spoke of the Queen (the REAL queen, not Elizabeth) with tears in his eyes. He was born in 1888. Sadly, I never heard singing from any of them.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 09:13 AM

Thanks, Betty, for this additional information on Moriah. I've looked at a number of different websites on this and it has been a bit confusing to me trying to pin down exactly what and where "Moriah" is and was since it seems to have evolved historically. In any case, here are the two pages that I looked at:

http://history.rays-place.com/ny/n-hudson.htm

http://www.inandaroundtheadirondackpark.com/History_of_Moriah.htm

A fascinating footnote, for me, is the mention of "Benjamin Pond" as one of the original settlers in this area. Here is a bit more information on him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Pond

He is descended from Samuel Pond, who was the eldest son of Robert Pond of Dorchester MA, mentioned earlier in this thread here:

thread.cfm?threadid=141964&messages=74#3274281

While I was thinking about "Sarah Willard" over the weekend, I was reminded of a book by Jeffrey Lent, published back in 2002, called LOST NATION. It is a work of fiction, set in what I think is the northern part of New Hampshire, possibly in the early 1830's. It is a very good book but brutal. I suspect that he is fairly accurate in his portrayal of the "frontier" in those times and places. The area he describes is about 150 miles or so northeast of Moriah Center. Accurate or not, it gives me a sense of what life might have been like between the time of Benjamin Pond in 1800 and the time of Sarah Willard in 1849 "in those days."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 08:06 PM

I just noticed that in v1 line4 of the original text transcription (09:41) I've put in hte instead of the the of the ms. I thought I'd mention it so that noone thinks that it was like that originally.

Perhaps a mudelf could change it for me.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Bettynh
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 02:50 PM

According to this , Moriah is much older. Takes you right back to that edge of English settlement mentioned earlier in this thread. Really, there wasn't a huge difference between settlements in upstate NY and those in Kentucky in 1780. Tiny family farms in river valleys were the norm.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 12:25 PM

So who was Sarah A. Willard, who wrote down the lyrics to "The House Carpenter" at Moriah Center, NY, in April of 1849? I have been searching online trying to locate her, but I have not had any success in linking a person by this name to this place. Did she live there or was she visiting? Was she a young woman, perhaps not yet married, or was she an older woman? A very rough time frame for her birth might be somewhere between 1775 and 1835. Moriah Center is near Lake Champlain and was barely even settled by 1849. It is in a region that was known for timbering and then for the mining of iron ore.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 09:41 PM

Mick Pearce has transcribed the "Willard Version" from TAUNY website for us. He gives us a literal transcription and then a modern reading of that. Thanks very much for this good work, Mick.
---
The House Carpender

1
Well mett well mett my own
True love well mett well mett,said he
I have just returned from the salt
Salt Sea all for hte love of the

2 If you will forsake your hous
Carpender and go along with me
I will take you whair the grass
grows green on the Banks of the Sweete
Willie

3 If i'll forsake my house carpender
And go along with the have you
Eny thing to mantane me up
on to kepe me from slavery
-- ---- -- -- -

4 One hundred ships I have at
Sea a making for dryd land
With two hundred and tenn bold
Jolly seamen all shall be at your comand

5
She called her babe up on her
Knee and she kist it two and three
Sayd stay at home my sweete little
Babe and keepe your dad company

6
She dresst her self in rich way
In riches to be hold and every street
that She past through she shode
her glitter goald

7
She had not been at Sea two
Weakes I am sure it was not three
before this maid she began
for to weap and She wept most
Bitterly

8 Is it for my goald that you
Weape or is it for my store or is
It for the house carpender that
you never can see any more

9
Tis not for your goald that
I weap it is not for your store
But its all for the love of my
Sweete little babe that I never can
See eny more
--- --- --- ---
10
She had not ben on the sea three
Weakes I am sure it was not four
Before that ship She sprung a leak
And she sank to rise no more
--- --- --- --- --- --
11
Bad luck Bad luck to Sea
fare mades and kurse be all
your lives for robing of the
House Carpender and Stealing
Away his wife --- --- ---


April 28 1849

Sarah A.Willard
Moriah Center Ny


================================================
Rendering into modern orthography

The House Carpenter

1
Well met, well met my own true love
Well met, well met, said he
I have just returned from the salt, salt sea
All for the love of thee

2 If you will forsake your house carpenter
And go along with me
I will take you where the grass grows green
On the Banks of the Sweet Willie?

3 If I'll forsake my house carpenter
And go along with thee
Have you anything to maintain me upon
And to keep me from slavery

4 One hundred ships I have at sea
A-making for dry land
With two hundred and ten bold jolly seamen
All shall be at your comand

5
She called her babe up on her
Knee and she kissed it two and three
Said stay at home my sweet little babe
And keep your dad company

6
She dressed herself in rich way
In riches to behold
And every street that she passed through
She showed her glittering gold

7
She had not been at sea two weeks
I am sure it was not three
Before this maid she began for to weep
And she wept most bitterly

8 Is it for my gold that you weep
Or is it for my store
Or is it for the house carpenter
That you never can see any more

9
Tis not for your gold that I weep
It is not for your store
But its all for the love of my sweet little babe
That I never can see any more

10
She had not been on the sea three weeks
I am sure it was not four
Before that ship she sprung a leak
And she sank to rise no more

11
Bad luck Bad luck to sea fare maid
And cursed be all your lives
For robbing of the House Carpenter
And stealing away his wife


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 05:06 PM

Mick, you just might be right about that! I can't really see the only other "6" on the document, but when you compare it with verse "4" it looks pretty close. I have emailed TAUNY asking for more information on this manuscript. We'll see what they say. Thanks for your sharp eyes, Mick. If it is "1849" then this must be the oldest written documentation in North America for "The House Carpenter" and certainly pre-dates the DeMarsan broadside. It is very strange to me that there is no discussion that I have been able to find anywhere about this. And if you Google "The House Carpenter" pictures, it's right there.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 04:33 PM

I think it might be 1849 John, comparing it with the numbers on the verses.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 03:15 PM

Here is a very interesting website about music from the Adirondacks:

http://woods.tauny.org/pages/70/6/some-background

If you scroll down, you will see a photograph of a handwritten copy of "The House Carpenter".

You can also view it here:

http://woods.tauny.org/images_start.php?gal=gallery/sub5/&img=48

And here is a (sideways) picture of some more of the ballad:

http://woods.tauny.org/images_start.php?gal=gallery/sub5/&img=49

I'm not sure, but I think that the date on this is April 28, 1869! It is from Sarah A. Willard, in Moriah Center. NY. Unfortunately, as near as I can tell, there is no discussion on this website of this manuscript! It is not even labeled. From what I can read of the manuscript, this version looks like many of the others that we have found from New England. If anybody knows anything more about this manuscript, please share with us.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 10:40 AM

Lena Bourne Fish, who lived in East Jaffrey, New Hampshire, back in 1940, when she was recorded by both Frank and Anne Warner, and by Helen Hartness Flandes, singing her version of "The Ship Carpenter" (Child #243), was born in April 1873. From my point in history, this would put her in my grandfather's generation (he was born in 1876). Above, I quoted Flanders as saying that Mrs. Fish learned this ballad from her father, Stratton Bourne, who was born in northern Vermont. This places this particular version of "The House Carpenter" back into the previous generation, or what would be my own great-grandfather's time. My great-grandfather, Franklin Pond, was born on November 30, 1819. Assuming that he and Stratton Bourne were contemporaries, this pushes the potential time for this version back to the early days of the 19th century. And if Stratton Bourne learned the ballad from his family, it would go back into the 1700's, but there is no documentation for that.

As far as I know, none of my ancestors were ballad singers. My mother's family, the Ponds, came over with Governor Winthrop in 1630, and settled in the Boston area, and were probably among those Puritans from East Anglia (to be specific in this case, from Groton, in Suffolk, England), that Brian mentioned earlier. My father's family were German and came over in 1732 to Philadelphia from the Palatinate, to become part of the "Pennsylvania Dutch", and eventually settled in Tucker County, West Virginia. I'm sure that both the Ponds and the Minears intermarried along the way with some good Scotch-Irish folks, but there are no records of ballad singing on either side.

I find that when I am trying to picture history it helps to personalize it and locate it. Both of the great-grandfathers involved here "went west" as young men. George Minear left West Virginia and moved out to the "frontier" of southeastern Iowa on the banks of the Des Moines River to farm in the late 1850's. Franklin Pond went to California in 1849 as a part of the "Gold Rush". [You can read about some of Captain Pond's later adventures in this thread: thread.cfm?threadid=126347 ]

They would have already departed for the west when the DeMarsan broadside was published in 1860. There was probably ballad singing going on in West Virginia in those days. Perhaps even in Tucker County, and it is conceivable that the Minears might have been exposed to it. If he was a singer, George Minear could have taken the ballad out to Iowa. Franklin Pond was born in Granby, Connecticut. He might have heard some ballad singing, and if he had been a singer, he could have taken the ballad out to California and beyond. But in both cases, their versions would have pre-dated the DeMarsan version.

I am just trying to imagine the times and some of what was going on from the perspective of my own personal family histories. Instead of Iowa or California, we do know that the ballad traveled to northern Vermont and down into central Virginia (Robert Shifflett's version was older than he was and probably came from the generation of Stratton Bourne and Franklin Pond and George Minear. Robert Shifflett was of my father's generation, having been born in 1909). But, at this point we don't know when "The House Carpenter" arrived either in northern Vermont or in central Virginia, using just these two examples.

I think that Brian's detailed observations above about some of the differences in details gives us about as much basis as we are likely to find at this point for suggesting that there were other and certainly possibly earlier traditions of "The House Carpenter" existing in North America from which our current "collections" have descended. And I suspect that any new information is going to come from individuals digging around in their own personal family histories. However, I have a feeling that we are approaching the point when "stuff" that may have survived the last two or three hundred years is either not going to be found or has already gone by the wayside. That is a pessimistic reading on things, and my own opinion, but I don't feel hopeful about new discoveries. But who knows what remains stashed away in academic archives and museums that no one has ever really looked at. And don't forget the local garage and estate sales!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 01:47 PM

Hi, Julia L, that song is generally classified as a different song from the Demon Lover / House Carpenter, and has its own variants stemming from "The Gosport Tragedy, or, Perjured Ship Carpenter" a London broadside of about 1750. Sometimes known as the Ship's Carpenter, Polly's Love, or Pretty Polly (the last in the U.S., with the story only through the murder).

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 09:35 AM

Thanks, Brian, for supporting my suspicion that there are some sources other than the DeMarsan broadside feeding into the North American development of this ballad. I suspect that this ballad was alive and well and came over with at least some of the Scotch-Irish immigrants themselves.

I don't know much about the whole business of the Broadsides and would welcome some education on that. Do we know how many copies they would print up and would they do reruns? How many copies of the DeMarsan printing could we reasonably expect to have existed? They would have been disseminated from New York City. I assume that was a major entry point for the Scotch-Irish. Treading very lightly, I wonder how literate these folks were when they arrived. And what about the tune, which seems fairly stable?   Also, what about that earlier (?) version printed in Philadelphia? Do we have textual evidence of that somewhere? Philadelphia would certainly have been a major port of entry for the Scotch-Irish.

According to the Wikipedia article, by 1775, there were already over 200,000 Scotch-Irish immigrants in this country scattered from Maine to Georgia. They had been arriving since 1710. This is well before the printing of the DeMarsan broadside. How likely is it that this printed song sheet found its way into the Southern Highlands? Or the hills of Kentucky and West Virginia? Or the lumber camps of Vermont and Maine? Another 100,000 Scotch-Irish immigrants arrived by 1812. Again, some forty years or so before DeMarsan's printing. Is it not likely that his version of this ballad was actually taken from these immigrants at some point, after they had become relatively well established in North America? This second "wave" was apparently somewhat older in age, and perhaps more skilled and tended to settle in the industrial centers of the North, like New York and Philadelphia. But were they the ballad singers? Weren't the "ballad singers" already several generations established in the Appalachians by then.

Another half a million arrived between 1815 and 1845. They just kept coming! And they spread out across the developing new country. And somehow they took this ballad with them. I suspect that whether or not they first received this ballad in printed form, many of them did in fact write it down for themselves and preserved it in that way as well as in their memories. The tradition of the "ballad boxes" surely plays a major role is stabilizing these texts.

This is all fascinating to me. I just wish we had more printed references to work with on this.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 08:07 AM

"This version is very similar to those that we have found in New England, with the exception of the last two verses."

Yes, John - but those two last verses (Hell / Heaven) appear in Child F (Scott and Motherwell).

Also, that version and many of those from new England contain the verse:

"If you could have married a king's daughter
I'm sure you are to blame"

... which is absent from De Marsan but present in Socts oral and English broadside versions.

The verse beginning:

"She arrayed herself in rich attire
Most glorious to behold"

... is very common in versions from throughout the US, but again is absent from De Marsan; the Scots versions do not contain precisely the same verse, although some do mention posh attire (especially slippers of gold and velvet).

Lastly, several of your New England versions use the formula "keep me from slavery" as opposed to "keep me from misery" in de Marsan, and "what have you to keep me withal, if along with you I should go" in some Child texts (the Peacock Newfoundland version echoes the older versions).

So it looks like something other than De Marsan, whether another broadside or some consistent patterns in oral tradition, has contributed to the predominant form of the ballad in North America.

The Newfoundland version is interesting. Verses 1, 2 and 8 are aberrent, with the touch of a poetic hand about them. Someone has doctored that at some point.

It's also fascinating that the version you've given us from Mrs. Alice Robie of Pittsburg, New Hampshire, starts out with the first verse of the broadside ballad 'Turtle Dove' (aka 'Ten Thousand Miles'). There's one other example in Bronson of the same confusion of two separate songs: version 18, that opens with three verses of 'Turtle Dove', and comes from Wisconsin. Make of that what you will!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: GUEST,julia L
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:23 PM

As I re-read this I realize it is in fact a fascinating amalgam... trying to remember the other ballad where the ghost reveals the culprit on the ship... too distracted right now

Also thinking about the relationship to this and Miss Bailey's Ghost

best- J


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: GUEST,julia L
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:11 PM

Cape Breton's Magazine
> Issue 23 > Page 1 - MacDougalls and Whittys and Songs
Page 1 - MacDougalls and Whittys and Songs
Published by Ronald Caplan on 1979/7/31


Music as sung by Mary Ann MacDougall Cape Breton

It's of a young man this song I write
Unto the seas he takes great delight
While the female sex had him beguiled
Till at length he had two of them with child

He promised them he'd be true to both
He bound himself with a solemn oath
For to marry them both if he had life
And one of them he made his wife

The other poor girl she was left alone
She said, "You false and alluding men
It's funny. You have done a wicked thing
Which a public shame unto me will bring."

It's to some silent woods she went
This public shame all to prevent
And for to finish off the strife
She cut the tender thread of life

She hung herself out off a tree
Two men were hunting they did her see
Her flesh by birds were beastly torn
Which grieved those young men's heart forsom

Straightway they ran and they cut her down
And in her bosom a note was found
This note was written out in large
Saying, "Bury me not or I'll do you charge

"But here on the ground you will let me lie
For all false young men as they pass by
And this by me a warning take
And see their follies when it's too late."

It was on the land she plagued him so
Till at length to the sea he was forced to go

And as he was standing in the topmast high
A little boat he chanced to spy
A little boat without any trim
Which made him tremble on every limb

It's down below then this young man goes
Unto the captain his mind unclose
Saying, "There is a spirit a-coming hence
So captain you'll stand up in my defence."

It's up on deck then the captain goes
It's there he spied this a-fettered ghost
Saying, "Captain, captain, you must untend
You must fide(?) and help me with this young man.'

"It's in St. Helen's this young man died
And in St. Helen's his body lies."
"Oh captain do not tell me so
For he do dwell in your ship below

"And if you will stand up in his defence
A mighty storm I will send hence
Which it will make you and your sailors weep
And leave your bodies rolling in the deep.

" It's down below then the captain goes
He brings this young man unto his foes
She fixed her eyes on him so grim
That it made him tremble on every limb

Saying, "It's easily knowing when I was a maid
It was first by you I was betrayed
I am a spirit that came for thou
You bought me once but I got you now."

It's to preserve then both ship and men
It was in that boat where she forced him then
The boat sank down in a flame of fire
Which caused the sailors all to admire

So come all good people who love belong
And since you heard of my mournful song
Be true to one or don't be tied
Or don't allure with poor female kind.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad Virginia)
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 02:44 PM

For comparative purposes, here is a very fine version of "The House Carpenter" sung by Robert Shifflett, of Browns Cove, VA, which is in the Blue Ridge, east of Charlottesville.

http://www.klein-shiflett.com/shifletfamily/HHI/GeorgeFoss/SONGS/song5.html

"Well met, well met my old true love
Well met, well met," cried he,
"I have just returned from the great salt sea
To take thee away with me."

"I once could have married a king's daughter fair
She wanted to marry me
But a crown of gold have I refused
Because of my love for thee.

If you could have married a king's daughter, sir,
I'm sure you are to blame,
For I am married to a house carpenter
And he is a nice young man."

"Will you forsake your house carpenter
To sail away with me?
I will take you where the grass grows green
On the banks of the low country."

"How can I leave my house carpenter
Oh, how can I leave I say?
How could I leave my three little babes
To sail so far away?"

"I have seven ships upon the sea
All sailing for this land
And a hundred and ten brave, jolly, bold men
Shall be at your command."

She picked up her three little babes
She gave them kisses three
Saying,"Stay here with your papa, my dear,
To keep him company.

She arrayed herself in rich attire
Most glorious to behold
And every hamlet they rode through
She shown and glittered like gold.

They had been on the sea about two weeks
I'm sure it was not three
When this fair maiden began to weep
She wept most bitterly.

"Is it for the gold you weep
Or is it for the store?
Or can it be for your house carpenter
You never will see anymore?"

"It is not for the gold that I weep
And neither for the store
But I am grieving for my three little babes
I never shall see anymore."

They had been on the sea about three weeks
I'm sure it was not four
When there sprang a leak in the bottom of the ship,
And it sank to rise no more.

"What is it that looms so black,
As black as the feathers of a crow?"
"That is the smoke from the fires of Hell
Where you and I must go."

"What is it that shines so bright
As white as driven snow?"
"That is the gate of Heaven itself
Where we can never go."

This version is very similar to those that we have found in New England, with the exception of the last two verses. It is also very similar to the DeMarsan broadside. I wonder if the DeMarsan broadside was picked up at some point and published in a songbook. I'm finding it a little hard to grasp how a single broadside published in New York/Philadelphia could have spread so far and wide.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:41 AM

While this excerpt is a bit chopped up, there are some interesting observations here in Norm Cohen's FOLK MUSIC: A REGIONAL EXPLORATION. Here is what was available of his discussion on the Northeast.

http://books.google.com/books?id=DqN_-kyCJFcC&pg=PA84&dq=New+England+singers+-+Norm+Cohen&hl=en&ei=-4roTvuuK-T50gHu8cDsCQ&sa=X&o


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Bettynh
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 02:47 PM

Most New Englanders were (and are, I hope) literate, certainly by 1860. This entry from Old Sturbridge Village (a historical repro village representing 1830) discusses distribution. By 1860, railroads would certainly be involved as well.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 09:38 AM

Brian posted the text of this earlier, but here is a link to De Marsan's broadside as it was printed in an article by Phillips Barry entitled "Traditional Ballads in New England II," published in the JOURNAL OF AMERICAN FOLKLORE, Vol. 18, No. 70, July-Sept., 1905 (scroll to bottom of the page):

http://www.jstor.org/stable/533139?seq=17

Barry says this was printed "about 1860, by H. DeMarsan, 60 Chatham Street, New York, N.Y." It does seem to be something of a baseline for most if not all of the NE versions. How would this broadside have been distributed throughout the North Eastern region? And can we find any earlier references in print to this ballad in the North East or anywhere in the U.S.? I do not want to gather up examples from other regions, but I would be interested if there are any earlier print examples.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 09:06 PM

Thanks Becky for the version from LaRena Clarke.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad Ontario)
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 07:49 PM

From The Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs
Edit Fowke & Keith MacMillan, 1973

81. The House Carpenter
from LaRena Clark (Toronto, Ontario 1961, recorded on 'LaRena Clark: A Canadian Garland', Topic 12T140)

'Well met, well met, my own true love,
And very well met,' said he.
'I have just returned from the salt, salt sea,
And it's all for the sake of thee.

'I could have married a queen's daughter,
And she would have married me,
But I refused a crown of gold,
And it's all for the sake of thee.'

'If you could have married a queen's daughter,
Then she should have married thee,
For me, young man, you have came too late,
For I've married a house carpenter.'

'If you will leave your house carpenter
And go along with me,
I will take you down where the grass grows green
On the banks of the River Dee.'

If I were to leave my house carpenter
And go along with thee,
What have you got to maintain a wife
Or to keep her from slavery?'

'I have seven ships at sea
And seven more in port,
And a hundred and twenty-four jolly, jolly boys,
And they all will wait on thee.'

She called then to her two pretty babes
And she kissed them most tenderly,
Saying, 'Stay at home, my two pretty babes,
And bear your own father company.'

She had not sailed on sea two weeks,
I'm sure not sailed on three,
Till here she sat in her new husband's cabin,
Weeping most bitterly.

'Oh, do you weep for gold?' he said,
'Or do you weep for fear?
Or do you weep for your house carpenter
That you left when you came here?'

'I do not weep for gold,' she said,
'Nor do I weep for fear,
But I do weep for my two pretty babes
That I left when I came here.'

She had not sailed on sea three weeks,
I'm sure not sailed on four,
Till overboard her fair body she threw,
And her weeping was heard no more.

Her curse did attend a sea sailor's life,
Her curse did attend a sailor's life,
For the robbing of a house carpenter,
And stealing away his wife.

---

There's a lovely and rustic ;-) photo of LaRena Clarke here on the cover of 'A family heritage: the story and songs of LaRena Clark'
By Edith Fowke, Jay Rahn, LaRena LeBarr Clark, at Google Books

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 04:52 PM

Brian, is this the Heylin piece on Dylan's "Daemon Lover" that you were referring to? It is quite amazing and will take some study.

http://www.clinton-heylin.com/PDFs/DaemonBitz.pdf


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 04:04 PM

The previous note comes from this website:

http://www.wtv-zone.com/phyrst/audio/nfld/


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE YOUNG SHIP'S CARPENTER (trad NF)
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 04:01 PM

Here is a version collected by Kenneth Peacock from Mrs. Mary Ann Galpin of Codroy, Newfoundland, in 1961. It comes from this website, which is not identified on this particular page:

http://www.wtv-zone.com/phyrst/audio/nfld/16/carpenter.htm

The Young Ship's Carpenter (Collected by Kenneth Peacock)

In England there lived a young ship's carpenter,
They tell me that he had a handsome wife,
When a sea captain he went from Newfoundland,
And soon he blighted both their tender lives.

He said, "Come and leave your husband now, my dear,
And see some pleasure all of your life,
And we will both go back to Newfoundland,
And there we will pass for man and wife."

"If I should leave my husband dear," said she,
"Likewise my little family that's so small,
What have you got to maintain me,
To support my weary ones in with all?"

He said, "I have seven ships now all of my own,
It was one of them that brought me here on shore,
And one of them will be at your command
For to carry you about from shore to shore."

They had not been sailing long upon the sea,
Scarcely two days, or p'rhaps it was 'bout three,
Before that young ship's carpenter's handsome wife
She began to weep most bitterly.

"Do you weep for gold, my dear?" said he,
"Or do you weep for silver that is free,
Or do you weep for any other man
That you do like much better than me?"

"I do not weep for gold," then said she,
"And neither do I weep for silver that is free,
But I do weep for my own little family
That I ought to have brought on board along with me."

'Twas just a short time after that, I know,
This lady she was distracted and forlorn.
Then she soon ended her life into the sea
By jumping overboard at the height of the storm.

When that sad news to England it returned
The young ship's carpenter swore and tore his hair,
Saying, "My curse might lay on you, all mariners,
For you do live a sad and a wicked life;
My curse may lay on that sea captain, too,
For 'twas he that stole away from me my handsome wife."

Here are the comments that accompany this ballad:

"Collected in 1961 from Mrs. Mary Ann Galpin of Codroy, NL, by Kenneth Peacock and published in Songs Of The Newfoundland Outports, Volume 3, pp.740-741, by the National Museum of Canada (1965) Crown Copyrights Reserved.

Kenneth Peacock noted that this ballad, usually known as The House Carpenter, especially in its North American variants, has lost most of its 'daemonic' character. If one reads the daemonism back into this Newfoundland variant, one finds that the woman was originally betrothed to the sea captain. However, when she jilts him for the young ship's carpenter he vows to have revenge and enlists the help of the devil. Appearing in the likeness of the captain, the devil woos her away from domestic bliss to her ultimate destruction. All these latter-day variants of the story are quite possibly descended from an archtypal legend of the remote past when sea daemons lured unsuspecting maidens into their submarine parlours."


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad New Jersey)
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 03:50 PM

Here is the version sung by Jennie Devlin and I believe recorded by Alan Lomax. You can find out more about it here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=fVilv3ZcQEAC&pg=PA125&dq=The+House+Carpenter+ballad&hl=en&ei=EEfdTsL9MKrc0QHokZHDBg&sa=X&oi=boo

Roud says that this was collected in Gloucester, Massachusetts, but Newman in her book, NEVER WITHOUT A SONG, pp. 124-126, talks about it coming from New Jersey. There was not enough of the book on line for me to figure this out. Lomax's "Intro" was particularly unhelpful.

The House Carpenter

"Well met, well met, O my own true love,
Well meet, well met, O," cries she.
"I've come across the deep blue sea,
And it's all for o'er the love of thee."

"If I am to give up my house carpenter,
And also my little baby,
What have you got to support me upon,
On the banks of the old Tennessee?"

"I have six ships a-sailing the sea,
And one hundred and ten
Of your own countrymen
For to be at your command."

[So she goes with him]

She picks up her dear little baby,
And kisses it one, two, and three,
Saying "Stay at home with your daddy,
While I go sailing on the sea."


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad Maine)
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 03:35 PM

Here is the version sung by Susie Carr Young, of Brewer, Maine, and collected by George Herzog in 1928. This ballad was "traditional in her family." (Bronson, 452)

THE HOUSE CARPENTER

She took her baby on her knee
And she gave it kisses three,
Saying, "Stay a t home, you sweet pretty babe,
Keep your father company."

They had not been out more than two weeks,
I'm sure it was not three,
Before this lady began to weep,
And she wept most bitterly.

"O, do you weep for the gold that you left,
Or the dangers of the sea?
Or is it for fear of that house-carpenter
That you left when you came with me?"

"I do not weep for the gold that I left,
Or the dangers of the sea;
But it's all for the love of that little baby
That I left when I came with thee."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 12:13 PM

Becky, thanks for the LaRena Clark information. Can you post her version without too much trouble? I think it would give us a broader context for what we are looking at and be good for the purposes of comparison.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 12:10 PM

Hi Brian. I, too, was suspicious of that "Daemon Lover" version from Rhode Island/Massachusetts/England. Thanks for the Mike Yates article on Joe Rae.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 12:08 PM

Possibly outside the region of your interest, but the version in the Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs is from LaRena Clark of Ontario. This article says that most of her English songs came from her grandfather who emigrated from northern England.

Song transcript available by request...

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 12:04 PM

Thanks, Becky, for the George Edwards' version from the Catskills. Here are two versions from the Adirondacks, collected by Edith E. Cutting and published in her book LORE OF AN ADIRONDACK COUNTY (from Google Books). One version is by Mrs. Cornwright and one by Mr. Cutting.

http://books.google.com/books?id=MElT30avx4wC&pg=PA69&dq=The+House+Carpenter+ballad&hl=en&ei=SUbdTv3_BqHK0AGNwJHHAg&sa=X&oi=book


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 12:04 PM

"As a nonacademic traditional singer from the sticks I very much doubt if Rae would even have heard of Child 40 years ago"

He may or may not have heard of Child, Guest gus, but the version he sings is pretty much word-for-word that published by Motherwell in 'Minstrelsy, Ancient and Modern' (read it here) in 1873. It's substantially the smae as Child's F text From Scott, with those rather poetic additonal verses about waesomely wailing snow-white sprites etc.

I think it's a mistake to assume that traditional singers from the rural working class were necessarily ignorant of published ballad collections. Mike Yates article about Joe Rae tells us that Joe learned songs from his mother and father, but also from his neighbour, the shepherd Ned Robertson, of whom Yates says:

"many of Ned's texts are similar to those published in the late 18th and early 19th centuries by the likes of Herd and Motherwell... Joe's ballads reveal a literary influence from perhaps a couple of hundred years ago."

He also quotes Alan Lomax thus:

"The Scots have the liveliest folk tradition of the British Isles, but paradoxically, it is the most bookish. Everywhere in Scotland I collected songs of written or bookish origin from country singers, and, on the other hand, I constantly encountered bookish Scotsmen who had good traditional versions of the finest folk songs. For this reason I have published songs which show every degree and kind of literary influence."

And I hate to rain on too many parades at once, but John Minear's transcription (and thank for all those, John) from Edith Price of Newport, RI, looks an awful lot like a collation from the two versions of the ballad in Motherwell's 'Minstrelsey'. If the singer did indeed give it the title 'Daemon Lover', that alone would be grounds for suspicion.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad Maine)
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 11:58 AM

Here is the version sung by Allen Johnson, which he learned in Calais, Maine. It was collected by William L. Alderson for the Library of Congress (LC/AAFS, rec. No. 10366(A6).

House Carpenter

Well met, well met, my fair pretty maid.
No so very well met, said she,
For I am married to a house carpenter,
And a very fine man is he,
For I am married to a house carpenter,
And a very fine man is he.

If you'll forsake your house carpenter
And come along with me,
I'll take you there where the grass grows green,
On the banks of the sweet Vallie,
I'll take you there where the grass grows green,
On the banks of the sweet Vallie.

O if I forsake my house carpenter
And come along with thee,
What have you there to entertain me with
And keep me company?
What have you there to entertain me with
And keep me company?

I've a thousand ships all on the bay,
And many more on land,
A hundred and ten of as fine young men,
And they're all at your command,
A hundred and ten of as fine young men,
And they're all at your command.

She went upstairs herself to dress,
Very beautiful she was to behold,
For when she walked along the streets
She shone as though she were gold,
For when she walked along the streets
She shone as though she were gold.

She took her babe all in her arms
And kissed him three times three.
Stay at home, stay at home, stay at home, my lad,
Your father's good company.
Stay at home, stay at home, stay at home, my lad,
Your father's good company.

They had not been sailing for more than six weeks,
O no, not more than three,
When this fair lady began to mourn
And mourned most bitterly,
When this fair lady began to mourn
And mourned most bitterly.

O is it gold for which you mourn,
Or do you mourn for me ?
Or do you mourn your house carpenter
Who you left to follow me?
Or do you mourn your house carpenter
Who you left to follow me?

O it is not gold for which I mourn,
Nor do I mourn for thee.
But I do mourn my house carpenter
Who I left to follow thee.
But I do mourn my house carpenter
And likewise my fair baby.

They had not sailed for more than eight weeks,
O no, not more than four,
When a hole in the ship it sprang a leak,
And the mourner was heard no more,
When a hole in the ship it sprang a leak,
And the mourner was heard no more.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 11:55 AM

The Ship's Carpenter as sung by George Edwards (of Grahamsville and Roscoe, New York) in Cazden, Haufrecht, & Studer, Folk Songs of the Catskills at Google Books

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 11:27 AM

Here is a Youtube of Deborah Flanders, a great-niece of Helen Hartness Flanders, singing a version of "The House Carpenter" from the Flanders Collection. She does not identify which version it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Cui5qJIfuIs#!

Here is her website:

http://www.deborahflanders.net/Home.html


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 11:21 AM

Here is a fragment sung by Maynard Reynolds of Pittsburg, New Hampshire "(upper Connecticut Lakes section)," September 8, 1941. Flanders says that "Reynolds was born in Maine and heard ...(this ballad) sung when a small boy." I would suggest that this may be a "Maine version" rather than a "New Hampshire version".

"Oh, if you'll forsake your house carpenter
And come along with me,
I will take you to the place where the green grass grows
On the banks of the Sweet Willee.
I will take you to the place where the green grass grows
On the banks of the Sweet Willee."

They had not been to sea two months,
I'm sure it was not three,
When she was seen sitting at the old cabin door
.....


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE YOUNG TURTLE DOVE (trad New Hampshire
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 10:48 AM

From a manuscript that belonged to Mrs. John Luther and handed on to her sister, Mrs. Alice Robie of Pittsburg, New Hampshire, and collected on November 21, 1941 by M. Olney, who was the "collector" for Flanders of many of these ballads.

THE YOUNG TURTLE DOVE

Don't you see young turtle dove
That sits on yonder pine,
She is lamenting for her true love
As I'm lamenting for mine.

I have returned from the salt, salt sea
All for the marry you
And you are married to a house carpenter
And he is a fine young man.

She went into her golden room
And dressed in silk so fine;
She turned around and around again
For she shone like a diamond's bride.

She went unto her dear little babe
And gave it kisses three
Saying, "Stay at home, my dear little babe,
Keep your papa company."

They had not sail'd more than one or two weeks,
I am sure it was not three,
When this fair maid, she began to weep
And she wept most bitterly.

Why do you mourn for your house carpenter that you have left on shore
I do not mourn for my house carpenter that I have left on shore;
But I do mourn for my dear little babe
That I shall see no more.

They had not sailed more than two or three weeks
I am sure it was not four
Before the ship sank in the deep
And sank to use no more.

There was no tune given with this version.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE DAEMON LOVER (trad Massachusetts)
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 09:41 AM

This may be the only version so far that might claim Massachusetts as an origin, although it was collected from a person in Newport, Rhode Island. It was sung by Edith Ballenger Price, on October 23, 1945. She learned it as a young girl from "a lady living in Massachusetts, whose forebears came from England." This version is considerably different from the other New England versions and is entitled "The Daemon Lover."

The Daemon Lover

"I've seven ships upon the sea,
Beaten with the finest gold,
And mariners to wait upon us;
All this she shall behold."

She set her foot unto the ship,
No mariners did she behold;
But the sail was o' the....
And the mast o' the beaten gold.

They hadna' sailed a league, a league,
A league but only one,
When she began to weep and to mourn
and to think on her little wee son.

"Now hold ye tears, my dearest dear;
Let all your weeping be:
For I'll show you how the lilies grow
On the banks of Italee.

They hadna' been a league, a league,
A league but only two,
When she beheld his cloven foot,
From his gay robe thrusting through.

They hadna' sailed a league, a league,
A league but only three,
When dark and fearsome grow his looks
And gurly grow the sea.

"Now hold your tears, my dearest dear,
Let all your weeping be
And I'll show ye how the white lilies grow
At the bottom o' the sea."

They hadna' sailed a league, a league,
A league but only four;
When the little wee ship ran 'round about
And never was seen more.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad Connecticut)
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 09:26 AM

[Mudcat just gobbled up a ballad so I will try it again.]

From the Flanders Collection, May 17, 1949, as sung by Oscar Degreenia of West Cornwall, Connecticut. Flanders says, "He learned this from his Canadian-born father and his mother, a native of Glover, Vermont." So we don't really know whether this is a Canadian version or from what part of Canada, or whether it is a Vermont version. It is probably not a "Connecticut version."

The House Carpenter

"I have came across the sea, salt sea;
It was all for the sake of thee.

"I might have married a king's daughter fair
And she would married me."
"For I have married a house carpenter
And I think he's a very nice man."

"If you will leave your house carpenter
And come along with me,
I'll take you there where the grass grows green
On the banks of the sweet Dundee."

"If I should leave my house carpenter
And go along with thee,
What have you there to support me on
Or keep me from misery?"

"I have three ships all loaded with gold
And sailing for dry land,
And a hundred and twenty sailor boys
Will be at your demand."

She picked her baby up into her arms
And give him kisses three,
Saying, "Stay at home with you pap
For he is good company."

They had not sailed a week an' a half,
I'm sure it was not three,
Before this fair maid found for to weep,
And she wept most bitterly.

"Is it for gold that you do weep,
Or is it for my store?"
"It's for my darling little babe
That I never will see no more."

They had not sailed three weeks and a half,
I'm sure it was not four,
When a hole broke lout in the bottom of the ship,
And their bones was heard no more.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad New Hampshire)
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 08:59 AM

And here is the version which Miss Ruth Moses of New York City "set down...from the singing of her father, who lives in Woodstock, New Hampshire." Flanders added this to her collection on February 9, 1935. I am treating this version as one from New Hampshire rather than New York City. All of these ballads from the Flanders' Collection are being taken from Vol. 3 of her ANCIENT BALLADS TRADITIONALLY SUNG IN NEW ENGLAND (1963).

The House Carpenter

"Oh, I might have married the Kings's daughter fair
And she would have married me,
but I have refused the crowns of Gordon gold,
And 'tis all for the sake of thee."

"If you have refused the King's daughter fair
I think you're much to blame,
For I am married to a House Carpenter
And I think he's a nice young man."

"If you will forsake your House Carpenter
And go along with me,
I'll take you where the grass grows green
On the banks of sweet Guerlee.

'If I forsake my House Carpenter
And go along with thee,
Oh, what hast thou got to maintain me on
Or to keep me from slavery?"

"I've got three ships loaded down with gold
And a-sailing now for land,
With a hundred and ten right jolly seamen bold,
And they're all at your command."

Then she dressed herself in scarlet red,
A color you all have seen,
And as she walked the streets up and down
She looked like a glittering queen.

Then she took up her darling little child;
She gave it kisses three,
Saying, "Stay at home, my darling little child,
For to keep your father company."

They had not been at sea more than two weeks,
I'm sure it couldn't have been three,
When that fair lady was seen for to weep,
And she wept most bitterly.

"Oh, is it for my gold that you weep?
Or is it for my store?
Or is it for your House Carpenter
That you never can see any more?"

"Oh, it is not for your gold that I weep,
Nor it is not for your store,
But it is for my darling little child
That I never can see any more."

They had not been at sea more than three weeks,
I'm sure it couldn't have been four,
When the ship sprang a leak; to the bottom then she sank
And she sank to arise no more.

Then that brings a curse on all womenkind,
Likewise on all men alive,
Who'll steal away from a House Carpenter
And take away his wife.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE SHIP CARPENTER (trad Vermont)
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 08:36 AM

I'm going to go ahead and put up the version that Flanders collected from Lena Bourne Fish, even though we already have a version from Granny Fish collected by the Warners. This is obviously the same version but there are some interesting differences in the way Mrs. Fish has sung her ballad. Flanders says that Mrs. Fish learned this ballad from her father, Stratton Bourne, who was born in northern Vermont, but whose forebears had been early settlers of Bourne, MA, on Cape Cod. It would be nice to claim this as a Massachusetts version, but I think that might be a stretch.

The Ship Carpenter

"Well met, well met, my pretty fair maid!"
"Not so very well met," said she,
"For I am married to a ship carpenter,
And a very fine man is he."

"If you will forsake your ship carpenter
And go along with me,
I will take you where the grass grows green
On the banks of the sweet vallee."

"If I forsake my ship carpenter
And go along with thee,
What have you there to keep me on?
Will I be in slavery?"

"Oh, I have ships all in the bay
And plenty more on land;
Five hundred and ten of fine young men,
And they're all at your command."

She took her baby in her arms
And gave him kisses three.
"Stay home, stay at home with your own father dear,
And he'll take care of thee."

She had not sailed six weeks on the sea,
Oh, no, not scarcely three,
Before this lady began for to mourn
And she wept most bitterly.

"Now do you mourn for gold? said she,
"Or are you tired of me?
Or do you mourn for your ship carpenter
That you left to follow me?"

"I do not mourn for gold," she cries,
"But I am tired fo thee!
And I do mourn for my ship carpenter
And for my sweet babee!"

The wild waves 'round the ship did roll;
They were leagues from shore;
In the bottom of the ship there sprang a leak.
And her mourning was heard no more.

This was recorded in 1940, with a "retake" in 1943. The Warner recording of Lena Bourne Fish was made in 1940. It is interesting to compare the two versions (the Warner one is above), and to notice the subtle differences in wording which really do affect the meaning of the song. [There is a correction to the Warner version: in the third line of the second verse it should read "take" instead of "teak".]


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 06:05 PM

Thanks for the Joe Rae site. I finally got around to listening to that. It was grand.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England?
From: GUEST,gus
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 01:40 PM

Thanks B.P. for the link to Rae. The title would probably have been given by an academic. It certainly is very close to Child 243F [15 verses] with his version having 18 verses [not 17 as given in the text] At a quick check I cannot find the three extra verses in any of the versions in Child.
As a nonacademic traditional singer from the sticks I very much doubt if Rae would even have heard of Child 40 years ago.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad New Hampshire)
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 01:18 PM

From Sidney Luther of Pittsburg, New Hampshire, "as learned from his father, Alan Luther, when he was seven years old." September 17, 1942

The House Carpenter

"Well met, well met, my own true love;
Well met, well met," said he,
"For I have crossed the salt sea wave,
And it's all for the sake of thee;
For I have crossed o'er the salt sea wave,
And it's all for the sake of thee."

"Oh I could have married a king's daughter fair,
And she would have married me,
'N I have crossed the salt sea wave,
And it's all for the sake of thee."

"If you could have married a king's daughter fair,
I'm sure you are much to blame,
For I am married to a house carpenter,
And I'm sure he's a fine young man;
For I am married to a house carpenter,
And I'm sure he's a fine young man."

"If you will forsake your house carpenter
And come along with me,
I will take you to a place where the grass grows green
On the banks of a sweet Willie:
I'll take you to a place where the grass grows green
On the banks of a sweet Willie."

And then she takes poor little babe
And sets it on her knee,
Saying, "Stay at home, my darling little babe;
Keep your father's company.
Oh, stay at home, my darling little babe;
Keep your father's company."

She had not been on board two weeks -
I am sure it was not three -
When this fair maid was seen to weep,
And she wept most bitterly;
When this fair maid was seen to weep,
And she wept most bitterly.

"Oh, is it for my gold that your mourn,
Or is it for my store,
Or is it for my house carpenter
That you never will see any more?

They had not been on board three weeks -
I'm sure it was not four -
When this proud ship she sprung a leak
And she sank to rise no more;
When this proud ship she sprung a leak
And she sank to rise no more.

A curse, a curse, to all seamen,
A curse, a curse for life,
For robbing of a house carpenter
And stealing away his wife;
For robbing of a house carpenter
And stealing away his wife.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE CARPENTER (trad New Hampshire)
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 12:55 PM

From Mrs. Belle Richards of Colebrook, New Hampshire, April 22, 1942.

The House Carpenter

"Well met, well met, my own true love,
Well met, well met," said he,
"For I have crossed the sea, salt sea,
And 'twas all for the sake of thee.

"'Twas I could have married a king's daughter fair,
And she would have married me,
But I refused her houses and land,
And 'twas all for the sake of thee."

"If you could have wed a king's daughter fair,
I'm sure you are to blame,
For I am married to a house carpenter,
And I'm sure he's a nice young man.

"If you'll forsake your house carpenter
And go along with me,
I will take you to a place where the grass grows green
On the banks of a sweet vallee."

"If I forsake my house carpenter
And go along with thee,
What have you got to maintain me upon
And to keep me from slavery?"

"It's I've six ships out on the sea
All sailing for dry land,
And a hundred and ten jolly, brave seamen
And they're all at your command."

She dressed herself in scarlet red;
Methinks she looks fair to behold:
And, as she walked the streets up and down,
She shone like the glittering gold.

She took her babe upon her knee
And gave it kisses three,
Saying, "Stay at home, my darling little babe;
Keep your father company."

She had not been at sea two months -
I'm sure it was not three -
When this fair maid was found to weep,
And she wept most bitterly.

"Oh, is it for my gold that you mourn
That I've not laid up in store,
Or is it for your house carpenter
That you never can see any more?"

"It is not for your gold that I mourn.
'Tis neither for my house carpenter,
But it is all for my darling little babe
That I never shall see any more."

They had not been at sea two months -
I'm sure it was not three
When this proud ship she sprang a leak,
And she sank for to rise no more.

They had not been at sea three months -
I'm sure it was not four -
When this proud ship she sprang a leak
And she sank for to rise no more.

A curse, a curse, on all seamen,
A curse on me for life (doth lie),
For robbing of a house carpenter
And for stealing away his wife.


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