From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?

Subject: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:05 AM

Between 1853 and 1855, the barque "Julia Ann" made four trips from San Francisco to Sydney, Australia. On the fourth return trip, October 3, 1855, she was ship-wrecked in the South Seas near the Scilly Islands.

My question is this. What shanties could have been sung on these voyages made by the "Julia Ann"? To my knowledge, there is no historical record in ship's log or from other accounts of any specific shanties being sung or heard on these trips. So I realize that the answers will be speculative.

I am interested in what shanties were likely to have been in use in that part of the world between 1850 and 1855, on such a sailing vessel. I am also interested in any reference works to this period and to the trade between San Francisco and Australia and to songs specific to those circumstances. Thanks for your interest and help.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:13 AM

Your best bet might be a list of nautical worksongs cited by R. H. Dana in his TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST (1840). Dana didn't call these songs shanties,chanteys/chantys/chanties but they certainly were. I believe we have summarized the list here somewhere on the Mudcat threads but if encouraged someone might do that again.

Are you working on a songwriting project?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 01:26 PM

They may have sung some connected with the California Gold Rush of 1849, such as "Banks of the Sacramento."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 01:41 PM

They could surely have been any mentioned by Hugill as being sung at that time — why/how would the actual route being sailed have affected which shanties the shantyman would have chosen to sing?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 03:46 PM

MtheGM-

The route would only be relevant if the shantyman picked up or composed a new song or some verses while in San Francisco or Sydney.

South Australia
Banks of the Sacramento (gold rush inspired)
Bound to California (gold rush inspired)
The 'Frisco Ship
Bound to California
Bound to Australia

Otherwise the shantyman would sing anything he knew that was appropriate for the job being done.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: ClaireBear
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 04:17 PM

A crew manifest giving some idea of the crewmembers' origins would, I think, provide great insight into what material would have been sung.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 04:47 PM

Here is a link with a partial list of the crew for the "Julia Ann" when it arrived in Sydney on December 6, 1854.

http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1854/12/008jul.htm

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 06:36 PM

That crew could have come from anywhere in the English-speaking world, though "Coffin" is a stereotypical New England name.

As it is in "Moby Dick."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 06:40 PM

In that era, it would suggest that he either was or was descended from a Nantucket Quaker family with a whaling background.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:12 PM

Stereotypical only because it is found in "Moby Dick," and the family of that name who settled on Nantucket. A well-known Brixton (England) family in the 16th C., but I haven't traced the genealogy.

It is a not uncommon English name. A few:
Sir Isaac Coffin, Baronet, and Royal Navy, 1812-1889.
Gen. Clifford Coffin, 1870-1959, Victoria Cross recipient in WW1, became a major general.
Walter Coffin, 1784-1867, coal mine owner, exploiter of Rhondda fields, member of Parliament.

One might as well pick the name of Seaman McGregor.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:21 AM

Here is a link for the crew and passengers for the "Julia Ann" when she arrived in Sydney on July 24, 1855.

http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1855/07/059jul.htm

Somehow, the First Mate, Mr. Coffin, has lost 20 years in age! Here is the original document:

http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1855/07/media/059jul.gif

It says that the nationality of all of the crew members is "American".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:40 AM

The links above are for the crew and passenger lists for the Third and Fourth voyages of the "Julia Ann" from San Francisco to Sydney. Here is the link for the Second voyage:

http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1854/01/071jul.htm

The captain on this voyage (and on the First voyage as well) was Charles B. Davis from New Bedford, MA. Mr. Pond, who was part owner of the "Julia Ann", was along on both of these trips, although he is not listed on the manifest for the Third voyage. The passenger and crew list for the First voyage of the "Julia Ann" is not yet available.

On the Third and Fourth voyages, Pond was the captain and Peter Coffin was the lst mate. Pond recruited Coffin when he took the "Julia Ann" to Stillicome at the head of Puget Sound to load timber for Sydney for his Third voyage. At the time, Coffin was the captain of a Revenue Cutter and "an old whaler of fifteen years experience on the Pacific Ocean."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 11:16 AM

Congratulations on the meticulousness of your research.

Unfortunately, history lacks resources to tell us for certain what shanties were sung on any voyage for which detailed accounts do not exist.

"Whisky, Johnny!" in various forms is occasionally mentioned by pre-Civil War writers, as are "Polly [more usu. 'Sally'] Rackett," "Sally Brown," "A Hundred Years Ago," and "Storm Along."

Referring, perhaps loosely, to the 1850s, Alden (1882) mentions "Haul the Bowline," "Haul Away, Joe," "Shallow Brown," "Good-bye, My Love, Good-bye," "Boney," "Shanandore," "Lowlands Away," "Across the Western Ocean," "Storm Along John," "Hurrah, You Santy!" "Ranzo," "Ranzo Ray," "Rio Grande," "Paddy Works on the Railway," "Hi, Hilonday!" and "Clear the Track!"

It may be the earliest list of shanties explicitly attributed to the 1850s by a writer who seems to have heard them at that time.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 12:03 PM

I appreciate your good responses and I'm following up on the references. I have put together a rough time line for the four voyages of the "Julia Ann" from San Francisco to Sydney, based on the records I have been able to find so far.

Voyage #1 Departed San Francisco perhaps in late May or early June, 1853.
        Arrived in Sydney probably in July of 1853.
        Departed Sydney on or about August 25, 1853.
        Arrived in San Francisco on October 9 (or 11), 1853.

Voyage #2 Departed San Francisco on December 2, 1853.
        Arrived in Sydney on January 24, 1854.
        Departed Sydney on March 22, 1854.
        Arrived in San Pedro CA on June 13, 1854. (83 days)
       Arrived in San Francisco shortly thereafter.

Voyage #3 Departed San Francisco for Puget Sound perhaps in early fall, 1854.
       Departed Puget Sound in the fall of 1854. (See p. 102 in the document below.)

http://books.google.com/books?id=KoEUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA359&lpg=PA359&dq=History+of+Seattle+from+the+earliest+Vol.+1&source=bl&ots=WU
            
        Arrived in Sydney on December 6, 1854.
        Departed Sydney on ?
        Arrived in San Francisco on ?

Final Voyage, #4 Departed San Francisco perhaps in early June of 1855.
        Arrived in Sydney on July 24, 1855.
        Departed from Sydney on Friday, September 7th, 1855.
        Ran aground and sank off the Scilly Islands on October 3-4, 1855.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 08:33 PM

Given the opening lines, I wonder of "London Julie" might have been a candidate.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:39 AM

This link provides a nice historic insight into the last voyage & subsequent wreck.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:36 AM

Thanks for that link, Dead Horse. Perhaps some additional background on both the ship "Julia Ann" and her captain, BF Pond would be interesting. Pond came to California from New York in the Gold Rush of 1849, arriving in San Francisco on April 1, 1849. Here is an account of his time in the gold fields.

http://oldwww.ballarat.edu.au/sovhill/gold150/caligold.htm

In 1852, Pond and several other business partners bought the "Julia Ann" for "about $10,000". She was "a new vessel, recently arrived from Boston on her first voyage, with passengers, never having carried a cargo, clipper built and staunch...."(Pond Memoirs) Here is a record of her arrival from New York on August 13, 1852.

http://books.google.com/books?id=b4cEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA624&dq=the+bark+%22Julia+Ann%22&lr=&cd=6#v=onepage&q=the%20bark%20%22Julia%20

According to John Devitry-Smith, in his article of 1989 on "The Wreck of the Julia Ann", in footnote 4, "The Julia Ann was a three-masted bark built with one deck, a square stern, and a billethead. It had been built at Robbinston, Maine, in 1851 and its home port was San Francisco (Conway Soone: Ships, Saints, and Mariners, 124-25).

It is important to not confuse Pond's "Julia Ann" with another "Julia Ann" that arrived in San Francisco on August 22, 1841, under the command of William Leidesdorff.

http://www.maritimeheritage.org/captains/leidesdorffWilliamA.html

On October 13, 1852, just after purchasing the "Julia Ann", Pond set out on a shake down cruise to Valparaiso, Chile, with a Captain Staples in charge. On this journey he "studied navigation, the use of the sextant, daily locality of the vessel, dead reckoning, &c., &c."(Pond Memoirs) It was upon returning from this voyage that the ship was outfitted for its first trip to Australia.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 07:17 AM

In trying to imagine the historical setting for the "Julia Ann" in San Francisco, I found the following information of interest. If you scroll down in the second link of the previous message to page 626 you find this:

"It will be seen by the foregoing table, that there arrived at San Francisco, from Eastern domestic porte, in 1852, 132 ships, 28 barks and 4 brigs and schooners—total 164 vessels. Amount of tonnage 124,650 tons; average length of passage 151 days.

Of these vessels 47 were from Boston, with an aggregate tonnage of 84,241 tons, the average length of passage being 148} days ; 99 from New York, the tonnage of which was 83,339 ton», and the average length of passage about 150 days ; 7 from Philadelphia, with a tonnage of 2,839 tons, the average length of passage being about 161 days ; 6 from Baltimore, with a tonnage of 1,890 tons, average length of passage 179 days; from Richmond 3 vessels, 2,007 tons; and one each from Frankfort, Maine and New London."

And specifically for the month of August, 1852, this:

"August—14 ships, 3 barks ; 12,424 tons, average passage 148} days. Five of the vessels arriving this month brought no assorted cargo, the other twelve had a fair assortment of general groceries."

To say that it was a busy time in the port of San Francisco when the "Julia Ann" arrived there, on what seems to have been her maiden voyage, is certainly an understatement.

If she left San Francisco in the summer of 1853 on her first trip to Sydney, here is what the shipping at San Francisco looked like:

http://www.maritimeheritage.org/inport/1853.htm

There were literally ships from all over the world there and this means crews from all over the world as well. Is it generally true that each time a ship sailed in those days, a new crew had to be assembled? It seemed as though Captain Pond was always having to put together a new crew to and from Sydney.

I can see that all of this would have had a direct impact on what songs might have been sung on any given ship. They could have come from anywhere, and would be pretty much dependent upon a particular shantyman at any given time. In his memoirs, Captain Pond does not mention anything about shanties or shantymen or even singing at all, so there are no clues there. He does talk about the make up of his first crew. I will give some detail on that later.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 09:15 AM

John-

Fascinating details.

"Round the Corner, Sally" with its implicit reference to 'rounding Cape Horn might also have been a sahnty sung on this ship; I believe Dana mentioned that one as well, along with "Sally Rackett."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 12:46 PM

Thanks, Charley. I will check these two out. I found a solid piece of information on the "Julia Ann's" first arrival in Sydney. It was on August 5, 1853. Also, her second arrival may have been January 27 rather than January 24, 1854.

For a fascinating first hand account from the perspective of a Morman missionary of the "Julia Ann's" Second return voyage from Sydney to San Francisco, check this link:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/People/William_Hyde/Journal/4*.html

Scroll down to the entry for January 29th, 1854, about four fifths of the way down the page, for the beginning of Hyde's account.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 04:58 PM

In the summer of 1853, as Captain Pond prepared for his first voyage to Australia, he was able to secure Captain Davis to command his ship. And he was fortunate to recruit a personal friend, Dr. Downs, as the ship's surgeon. The rest of the crew was another matter. In his memoirs, he says:

"It was at a time when the criminal classes were being hounded out of the State [of California] by Vigilance Committees, and as Australia had furnished a large quota of that stripe, and also as gold had recently been discovered there, the Julia Ann offered a fine double opportunity for the hoodlum class to flee from the very pronounced danger of strangulation by remaining, and in exchange to enter into pastures new for indulging in their peculiar propensities, by returning to the country from whence they came. Our crew, even from the first mate down to the cabin boy, were of like character, and were shipped for one dollar each to work their passage."

It is important to remember that Pond had spent a year in the gold fields of California, from 1849-1850, and was familiar with all kinds of rough characters. In addition to this crew, he also was carrying between 150-200 passengers! Even he admits that this was "a much greater number than she should have been allowed for her registered tonnage." Most of these passengers were bound for Melbourne and the gold fields of Australia.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 08:09 PM

On this first voyage of the "Julia Ann" to Australia, Captain Pond "made every preparation to guard against and prevent, if possible, any effort on the part of the crew to introduce a Neptune carousal" when they crossed equator.   But a barrel of whiskey had been smuggled on board and the crew got drunk and took over the ship. Pond says, "all authority was lost, and for three days we were barricaded in our state rooms and the ship allowed to drift at the mercy of the wind, no person at the helm."

With help from some of the passengers, Pond and Captain Davis were able to regain control of the "Julia Ann", "placing the second and third mates in irons, and confining them in their staterooms..." However the ship was a mess. He says, "The ship was dismasted, fore and aft. All three of her top gallant masts were hanging by their rigging over the sides. We rigged up jury masts, got what sail we could on the ship, and bore away to Tahiti, the nearest port under our lee."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 08:14 PM

When he reached Tahiti, under a flag of distress, Captain Pond wanted to get a whole new crew and leave the mutineers in jail there, but the American Consul wouldn't allow it. Taking on his original crew again, he ordered them to man the windless, but they refused, because they wanted to spend another night on Tahiti. Pond enlisted some French marines from a man-of-war nearby to help him with his problem. Once the "Julia Ann" was under way, he mustered the crew and put every other man in chains and turned them over to the French to take ashore and lock up.

The "Julia Ann" had "barely gained a comfortable offing" when it was discovered that she was being pursued by a fleet of boats from the harbor. She outran them until the wind died down and then the French came on board again and declared that she had deserters from every ship in the harbor stowed away and hidden on board. Pond invited them to thoroughly search the ship. They only found a couple of their own men, but after they left, nineteen more stowaways were discovered hiding in the steerage. He says that they "were mostly seafaring men, and were assigned to their several stations, thus giving me a powerful crew in numbers at any rate, if not in reliability." He goes on to say that the "daily scenes on board of our ship were simply indescribable, profanity, drunkenness, disorder and insubordination were the order."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 08:46 PM

The "Julia Ann" reached Sydney on August 5, 1853. Pond had wanted to sail straight to Melbourne, but the shortage of provisions forced him to stop at Sydney. Pond ended up abandoning his crew and half of his passengers ashore in Sydney and recruiting a new crew from the remaining passengers to sail on to Melbourne, which he reached in three days.   There he disbanded his new crew and joined the many other crew-less and cargo-less ships in the harbor. After a week or so, he rounded up a new cargo of passengers for San Francisco. He says, "I also obtained a reliable crew of able seamen, who shipped to work their passage to California and the gold diggings..."

The reason why I wanted to share these details of the first voyage was to give a sense of how fluid the makeup of "the crew" was at any given point. There seemed to be constant turnover for one reason or another. I have been unable to find a record of the names of the crew for this first arrival in Sydney, or for any of the new crew picked up in Melbourne. It would be a safe bet to guess that there were both Australians and Americans coming and going, back and forth from the gold fields of California and the new ones just discovered in Australia. This would have had some impact on what shanties might have been sung on this first voyage. The roughness of the crew and passengers (although there were women aboard) might also suggest the nature of some of the shanties.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 08:54 PM

During the incident when the "Julia Ann" was leaving Tahiti and being pursued by the flotilla of boats, Pond says:

"Twas marvellous what a smart, active crew the threatening crisis developed. They sprang up the rigging, lay out on the yards, sheeted home, with a "Yo, heave, O" and a will; and with the celerity of a man-of-war crew, the ship was covered with a cloud of canvas..."

This is the only place in Pond's memoirs in which he recounts the events of his four voyages to Sydney, as well as his earlier voyage to Valparaiso, where he mentions anything that sounds like it a shanty. But it may have been just a shout.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 08:48 AM

Sounds like a shout to me (or a literary representation of a shout).

There is a shanty called "Yo Heave Ho," but that was used at the capstan. (It even says so in the words.)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:51 AM

Thanks, Lighter. This is what I suspected.

I have a few corrections to make with regard to some dates in the earlier postings. The "Julia Ann" left San Francisco on her first voyage on April 12, 1853, and arrived in Sydney on June 22 for the first time. She then sailed on to Melbourne and returned to Sydney from Melbourne on August 3, 1853. She departed Sydney for San Francisco, on or about August 25, and arrived back in San Francisco on October 12, 1853.

On her third voyage, the "Julia Ann" departed Newcastle for San Francisco on January 17, 1855, with 400 tons of coal.

On her final voyage, the "Julia Ann" departed San Francisco on May 19th, 1855.

It is amazing how much information there is on all of this. Here is a link on newspaper notices for the "Julia Ann" in Australian newspapers:

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/search?searchTerm=Julia+Ann+barque&textSearchScope=full&startFrom=0

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 07:28 AM

I don't know very much about sailing or sailing ships, and I've never been to sea myself. As I try to imagine what it was like to sail on the "Julia Ann" from San Francisco to Sydney in the early 1850's, it helps me to know something about "three-masted barks". I began with the Wikipedia article here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barque

And then from that article I went here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Barkskibs_staende_rigning2.png

This gives me some sense of the size and complexity of these vessels. I am immediately struck by the amount of work that it would take to sail one of these ships half way around the world. When I try to bring together these drawings and the historical information of the actual voyages, I can begin to get a sense of how the shanties were a part of it. And I am assuming they were there.

Here are some contemporary pictures of a three-masted bark in Australian waters today:

http://sports.webshots.com/album/88650944gxtmXl

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 11:18 AM

Here are the shanties that Dana mentions in Chapter 29 of Two Years Before the Mast (1840):

"Heave, to the girls!"
"Nancy oh!"
"Jack Crosstree"
"Cheerly, men"
"Heave round hearty!"
"Captain gone ashore!"
"Dandy ship and a dandy crew"
"Time for us to go!"
"Round the corner"
"Tally high ho! you know"
"Hurrah! hurrah! my hearty bullies!"

In his list, Hugill lists "Roll the Old Chariot", "Cheer Up, Sam" and "Neptune's Raging Fury" as being mentioned by Dana. I haven't found the references for these three in Dana's text yet, but I am still reading. Anybody know where they might be?

From Olmstead's Incidents of a Whaling Voyage (1841) we have:

"Drunken Sailor"
"Nancy Farana"
"O, Hurrah, My Hearties, O"

And from Nordhoff's The Merchant Vessel (1856), we have:

"Old Stormy"
"Yankee Dollar"
"Fire Maringo"
"Highland Laddie"

These are all within about 15 years of the dates for the voyages of the "Julia Ann".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 01:40 PM

John-

You really do follow up on leads. Excellent work!

The James Craig in Sydney Harbour is a wonderful way to learn what it was like to sail on a barque/bark. And they also do a monthly shanty sing, led by some of my old friends there.

Charley Noble, still adrift in NYC

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 01:53 PM

Would the 'Highland Laddie' mentioned by Nordhoff, as cited in John's last post, have been 'Donkey Riding', a fine shanty always sung to the 'Highland Laddie' tune? Or the actual 'Bonnie laddie, Highland laddie' sung unadorned by the shanytman, I wonder?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 02:38 PM

A nautical adaptation of the original:

Were you ever in Quebec,
Chorus—Bonnie laddie, highland laddie,
Stowing timber on the deck,
Chorus—My bonnie highland laddie, oh.

Were you ever in Dundee,
Chorus—Bonnie laddie, highland laddie,
There some pretty ships you'll see,
Chorus—My bonnie highland laddie, oh.

Were you ever in Merrimashee,
Chorus—Bonnie laddie, highland laddie,
Where you make fast to a tree,
Chorus—My bonnie highland laddie, oh.

Were you ever in Mobile Bay,
Chorus—Bonnie laddie, highland laddie,
Screwing cotton by the day,
Chorus—My bonnie highland laddie, oh.

"Donkey Riding" extends these comments.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 05:19 PM

See thread on Donkey Riding, etc. thread 41062:
Donkey Riding

Possibly an old French chantey, but age not known. Sung in Canada. A variant in the Channel Islands.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 08:09 AM

Here is some information from Warren Fahey's "Australian Folklore Unit" webpage, which can be found here:

http://warrenfahey.com/wf_intro.htm

"Two shanty fragments as sung on the sailing ships bringing gold seekers to Sydney in the 1850s. Found in Adventures on the Australian Gold Fields - W Craig. 1903

Pumping Shanty

Oh fare you well, my own Mary Anne
Fare you well for awhile.

Anchor Hauling Shanty

When first we went a-waggoning
Drive on my lads, heigh ho."

The first one is obviously from a rather well-known song "Mary Ann". Check here:

thread.cfm?threadid=110435

I am not familiar with the second one.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 08:20 AM

It is also worthwhile to look at the Clive Carey Collection of sea shanties, collected by Carey in South Australia in 1924/25, from a George Pattison and a Malcolm Forbes. You will find them at Fahey's web site here:

http://warrenfahey.com/ccarey-s1.htm

and here:

http://warrenfahey.com/ccarey-mf1.htm

Fahey says that Forbes was an old man when Carey recorded his songs. Carey did not give any information that would help us determine how far back into the 1800's these songs go, but at least they are placed in South Australia in that century and from the age of at least one of the informants would seem to have been around for awhile.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 08:25 AM

In his introductory remarks about Clive Carey, and his time in Australia, Fahey mentions this:

"It should further be noted that the great English folk song and dance collector, Cecil Sharp, also chose Adelaide and spent some of his early years working in that city. Sharpe arrived in Adelaide in November 1882 and early in 1883 obtained a position as a clerk in the Commercial Bank of South Australia. He read some law, and in April 1884 became associate to the chief justice, Sir Samuel James Way. He held this position until 1889 when he resigned and gave his whole time to music."

I think I was vaguely aware that Sharp had been in Australia, but I had not made the connection in relation to this particular study. It looks like he was there for about seven years! That's a whole lot longer than he spent in the Southern Appalachian Mountains! Did he collect any songs in Australia and were any of them sea shanties? Where would one look to find out?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 08:37 AM

Sharp in Australia for seven years?

How interesting. I wonder if he kept a journal and whether that or some other notes might be at Cecil Sharp House in London?

It's amazing what another set of sharp eyes can turn up.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 08:32 PM

There are three references to singing on board the "Julia Ann". They all come from the final voyage that began in Sydney and ended in shipwreck. There were twenty-eight Mormons on board sailing for San Francisco. They were the ones who did the singing. Here is a quote from John Devitry-Smith's paper on "The Wreck of the Julia Ann", which you can find here:

http://allenhackworth.com/McCarthy/byujuliaann1.htm   (The quotes come from Part 2)

"After a final farewell from the Saints in Sydney, the Julia Ann with fifty-six souls and a 350-ton load of coal left Sydney Heads at 2:00 P.M., 7 September 1855, bound for San Francisco.26 As the voyage began, the passengers gathered between the poop and steerage house to sing "The Gallant Ship Is Under Weigh," but the thought of leaving friends and familiar surroundings for an uncertain future made the departure a more solemn occasion than joyous for many."

"Meetings were held regularly, and at night there was singing and prayer. After twenty-six days at sea, the Julia Ann continued "getting on with good wind," and aside from seasickness the voyage was a complete success with talk of soon arriving in San Francisco."

"Peter Penfold and others were singing on top of the midship house at the time of impact and, finding it too dangerous where they were, headed for the cabin. According to Penfold, "[T]he sea [was] breaking over us every moment, so that it was a thing impossible to stand."

It would be interesting to know what Peter Penfold and his friends were singing when the "Julia Ann" crashed into the reef. These references all come from eye witness Mormon accounts and not from Captain Pond.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 08:45 PM

Sea-song aficionados should be advised that "The Gallant Ship is Under Weigh" wasn't so much a sea song as a Mormon missionary hymn, written by W. W. Phelps before 1845.

As for the shanties, with so many passengers aboard, especially of a strongly religious bent, it is almost certain that the words sung were as inoffensive as the sailors could make them.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 09:59 PM

The "Julia Ann" was carrying Mormons on her second and fourth return voyages to San Francisco. I'm sure in both cases that this tended to modify the behavior of the crew and other passengers. On the other hand she was probably carrying gold diggers to Australia on all four voyages outward bound from San Francisco and this probably had a different effect on the crew's behavior. The account of the first voyage indicates that Pond didn't make much distinction between the crew and the passengers on that trip and was ready to be done with all of them, leaving as many behind as he could in Tahiti and in Sydney. He was probably glad to have the Mormons along to calm things down a bit. Although he was not a Mormon himself, he seems to have respected them. But it is also important to remember that he had been a gold digger in '49-'50 in the California gold fields so he probably felt some kinship with the diggers as well.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 09:12 AM

Of course there's no telling in any particular instance, but if there were any women possibly within hearing, shipboard discipline (i.e., the mate) would ordinarily have kept the singers in line. I doubt if many shanty singers were too "dedicated to their art" to take a hint.

What the gold-seekers sang would have been their own business, I assume. But that's a different story.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 09:18 AM

The "Anchor Hauling" song mentioned by Fahey is "The Jolly Waggoner". Here is a link to some previous discussion of this song:

thread.cfm?threadid=113022

However, I don't see mention of it being used as an "anchor hauling" song. And I wonder if there is any reference anywhere else to "Mary Anne" being used as a "pumping shanty".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 09:55 PM

On the third voyage of the "Julia Ann" to Sydney, when she was anchored in the harbor there, she was hit by a "buster". Here is some explanation of this weather phenomenon:

http://books.google.com/books?id=vdXsmOrelocC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=Australian+%22buster%22wind&source=bl&ots=ADpo331WAj&sig=PZoS_

It blew the "Julia Ann" across the harbor, dragging two anchors and slammed her into the rocky shore. This caused a leak that was to plague her on her return voyage to San Francisco, as well as on her fourth voyage out to Sydney. Pond says that she was never the same ship after that event.

The leak was steady but consistent on the return trip to San Francisco, but it did force Pond to stop at Honolulu. There was a lot of pumping on this return voyage. He was carrying a heavy cargo of coal. But once this coal was unloaded, partly in Honolulu and completely in San Francisco, the ship stopped leaking. It was checked out but the source of the leak could not be determined.

To put her up in dry dock would have meant a thirty day delay, so Pond loaded her up with flour and barley and headed out for his fourth voyage to Sydney. He didn't tell the crew they were sailing on a "leaky ship" until they were at sea and they were not happy about that! The leak had returned and they literally had to pump there way across the Pacific.

They made it to Sydney and there discovered that "when the vessel was caught on the rocks in sydney harbor, the previous voyage, her wood ends had been started from the stern post so that one could run the hand between, and nothing but the copper sheathing remaining unbroken kept the vessel from going down stern foremost." (Pond's Memoirs) This damage was repaired before the beginning of the final return voyage to San Francisco.

In other words, there was a lot of pumping going on back and forth across the Pacific on board the "Julia Ann" in these last voyages. Surely pumping shanties were being sung. Perhaps "Mary Ann", and probably "Lowlands" and "Stormalong" (found in the repertoires of both Pattison and Forbes), and perhaps "Fire Down Below" (sung by Pattison). It may well be that "South Australia" was used. What others do you think were sung?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Bruce D
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 03:27 AM

You might want to have a talk to the people at the San Francisco Maritime Museum
http://maritime.org/index.htm

They used to have quite a good group working on the folklore associated with the port. especially around the gold rush era.

Bruce D

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 09:52 AM

Thanks for the suggestion, Bruce. When I was there several years ago I didn't have enough time to make serious enquiries, but I know where it is. I have found some interesting stuff at the "Maritime Heritage" website. I don't know if there is any connection or not. In fact here is what they have on the arrival of the "Julia Ann" from Sydney on October 11(or thereabouts) in 1853. This would have been the return of the second voyage. It was on this voyage that Pond brought his first contingent of Mormons and had just dropped them off in San Pedro. It was also on this voyage that he brought the Irish patriot, John Mitchel, from Australia to California. Scroll down towards the bottom to October and the arrival of the "Julia Ann" from Tahiti.

http://www.maritimeheritage.org/inport/1853.htm

Unfortunately, this is the only arrival in San Francisco from Sydney of the "Julia Ann" that is recorded.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 10:14 AM

I very much enjoy and appreciate the good work that Gibb Sahib has been doing on bringing us Hugill's shanties on Youtube. Here are versions from him of two of the pumping shanties, "Lowlands" and "Stormalong".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUc-FQEQSTM&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=13

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hn_NMHKxyE&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=16

And here is his version of "South Australia".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s65rUw-Z2Og&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=78

Does anyone have a version of "Mary Ann" used as a pumping shanty?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 06:21 PM

Here is one of Gibb Sahib's versions of "Fire Down Below", a pumping shanty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csqkD_A3gHo&feature=PlayList&p=9182743BD3FD6DA2&index=44

After the wreck of the "Julia Ann" in October of 1855, and the subsequent rescue of most of the passengers and crew, Captain Pond returned to San Francisco and then set out on a fifth voyage to Sydney aboard a Dutch ship, the Horizont. On this voyage, he says:

"Fire at sea is always a present danger, but its actual occurrence will undoubtedly stir the blood of the most sluggish, and we had this experience which really aroused our sleepy Dutchmen for a day at least, to something like old fashioned Yankee go. It was caused by one of our Dutch passengers falling asleep while smoking his pipe, and the fire ate its way into the baggageroom before it was finally extinguished, with no serious damage other than the salt water soaking of a considerable quantity of theatrical furbelows." (Pond Memoirs)

Here is another of Gibb's versions of "Fire Down Below""

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gC27fJb1Fk&NR=1

The above incident reminded Pond of an experience that he had on one of the voyages of the "Julia Ann" (he is not specific about which one). He recounts the following:

"It was a wet, drizzly day. The ship was lazily moving ahead before a light breeze, dead aft, head sails set, main course and top sail hanging loose in their clews, spanker and gaff topsail furled, when suddenly, like a flash, fire burst out forward, the flame in a broad sheet of fire, leaping clean up to the foretop. I was standing aft by the wheel. Of course at such an apparition every one naturally rushed forward. Before reaching the break of the quarter deck, my hat blew off, and instinctively I turned to chase the hat. Well, the fire was occasioned by the boiling over of the cook's pot of fat in the galley. The rigging was fortunately soaking wet, nothing ignited, and the fire disappeared almost as suddenly as it appeared, but it was a standing joke poked at me the remainder of that voyage, the Captain chasing his hat with the forward part of his ship in a blaze of fire."

And here's another version from Gibb Sahib:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csqkD_A3gHo&feature=PlayList&p=9182743BD3FD6DA2&index=44

However, on the return to San Francisco of the Julia Ann's third voyage to Sydney, Pond was faced with a much more serious situation. He was hauling 400 tons of coal from Newcastle. After leaving Heuania where he had obtained a "fairly liberal supply of fresh provisions," he says,

"the cabin boy came to me with a peculiar complaint. He said that in going to and from the storeroom, which was located aft under the cabin and to reach which he had to pass over a portion of the coal cargo, it was so hot that it burnt his feet - to me an awful suggestion. I enjoined strict silence on the boy, and immediately went below for a personal inspection. I found the cargo heating, and in a kind of cone or funnel it was too hot to be handled by the naked hand, in fact, it seemed on the point of bursting into a conflagration. Not a moment was to be lost. I off coat, seized a shovel and for an hour or two there alone, in the hold of the ship, shoveled at that cone, scattering the coal, and giving it air, until all immediate danger from fire was averted."

Another version of "Fire Down Below" by Gibb Sahib:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6mTZBC0J6k&feature=PlayList&p=9182743BD3FD6DA2&index=45

I like the sound of the pump!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 06:27 PM

Whoops. I didn't mean to double up there on Gibb. Here is the missing "Fire Down Below":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHgPia75_4I&NR=1

But, in order to pump one's way across the Pacific, I'm sure that some of those shanties were repeated!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 07:04 PM

John-

You certainly would expect pumping shanties to be repeated on a voyage like that one, with likely some improvised verses focused on the Captain for signing them aboard such a leaky ship.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 07:35 PM

I've never heard of "Mary Anne" used as a shanty, but almost anything is possible.

The most likely shanties to have been sung are those (mostly too familiar today) known to have existed in the 1850s. Many good ones, including some favorites, could have originated long after the voyage of the "Julia Ann."

My guess too is that the lyrics actually sung during the voyage were shorter and varied from the texts in most collections. That's simply because of the nature of shantying.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 09:56 PM

In my note of January 15, I listed the shanties that I found in Dana's TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST. I also mentioned that Hugill lists three others that he attributes to Dana, which are: "Roll the Old Chariot", "Cheer Up, Sam", and "Neptune's Raging Fury". I have now scanned all of TWO YEARS, as well as Dana's THE SEAMAN'S FRIEND, and TO CUBA AND BACK, and I have not been able to find any reference to these three shanties. Here are the links for these latter two books:


http://books.google.com/books?id=BTwYAAAAYAAJ&dq=Richard+Henry+Dana&printsec=frontcover&source=an&hl=en&ei=WBxVS5ntD4yVtgfIy4yxC


http://www.archive.org/stream/danasseamansfri00danagoog#page/n189/mode/1up

I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed this anomaly and whether or not it has ever been discussed. Where did Hugill come up with these extra three shanties for Dana? I think this is an important question with regard to trying to set some historical time frames for these shanties.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 10:20 PM

I don't anyone's noticed this discrepancy before, John. "Neptune's Raging Fury" is the original title of the well-known and long popular "Ye Gentleman of England." "Cheer Up, Sam, Don't Let your Spirits Go Down!" was a 19th C. hit.

My guess is that Hugill simply misremembered what he'd read, or, perhaps more likely, a correspondent misinformed him and Hugill never checked the information.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 02:35 PM

I've come across an interesting note in the 4th edition of W.B. Whall's SEA SONGS AND SHANTIES (1920). It is on page two of that edition as an endnote following the song "Shenandoah". Whall says:

"This was not the only "song," by any means, which was used as a shanty. Dana told us long ago that one of the shanties used in his day was -

                         "Cheer up, Sam,
                         Don't let your spirits go down," etc.

which was made familiar to by the old Christy Minstrels."

Hugill says on page 562 of his SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS (1961):

Another shore-song popular even in Dana's day aboard ship as a capstan song was the minstrel ditty "Cheer Up, Sam"."

If Lighter is right in his suggestion above, I'm wondering if Whall was Hugill's informant on this. But where did Whall (and Hugill) find "Cheer Up, Sam" in Dana?   I may have missed it, but I would be glad to have someone point me to it.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 03:39 PM

In my opening post, I said:

"Between 1853 and 1855, the barque "Julia Ann" made four trips from San Francisco to Sydney, Australia. On the fourth return trip, October 3, 1855, she was ship-wrecked in the South Seas near the Scilly Islands. My question is this. What shanties could have been sung on these voyages made by the "Julia Ann"? To my knowledge, there is no historical record in ship's log or from other accounts of any specific shanties being sung or heard on these trips. So I realize that the answers will be speculative. I am interested in what shanties were likely to have been in use in that part of the world between 1850 and 1855, on such a sailing vessel. I am also interested in any reference works to this period and to the trade between San Francisco and Australia and to songs specific to those circumstances. Thanks for your interest and help."

Having laid out some of the historical information about these voyages, I want to return to my original question about what shanties could have been sung on board the "Julia Ann". This is a matter of "could have been" and not "were". This makes the historical dating of the shanties important.

I have already suggested four pumping shanties:

"Lowlands"
"Stormalong"
"Mary Ann"    (see note above for Jan. 16)
"Fire Down Below"

and a capstan (or pumping) shanty "South Australia". Hugil says, in SHANTIES AND SAILORS' SONGS, p. 59, "many authorities feel that even this song, ore than likely, started life in the days of the California gold rush, since versions are to be found giving:

    Heave away, haul away!
    And we're bound for California!"

Here is another pumping shanty that could have been sung on the "Julia Ann":

"Bounty Was A Packet Ship" @displaysong.cfm?SongID=884   Hugill believed that this shanty could be dated prior to the beginning of the 19th century (p. 36-37 SHANTIES AND SAILORS' SONGS).

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 04:58 PM

From Dana's list of shanties sung on board the "Pilgrim" and "Alert" between 1834 and 1836, published in TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST (page 285) I would suggest "Cheerily, Men". Here are several early versions of this song. First of all from Warren Fahey's site in Australia:

http://warrenfahey.com/Sydney-Folklore/SECTION-7/sfp-7-Cheerily.html

And then from Laura Smith's THE MUSIC OF THE WATERS, p.22-23:

http://www.archive.org/stream/musicofwaterscol00smituoft#page/n59/mode/2up

From the C. Fox Smith Perma Thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=85881#1595202

From an old book called THE SHIP OF SOLACE:

http://www.archive.org/stream/ashipsolace00mordgoog#page/n252/mode/2up

And from Cecil Sharp's ENGLISH FOLK-CHANTEYS :

http://www.archive.org/stream/englishfolkchant00shar#page/50/mode/2up/search/Cheerily+Man

And here is Gibb Sahib's EXPLICIT! version on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9xoIfGQwZs

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 05:12 PM

Almost everyone would agree that "Haul on the Bowline" is one of the more ancient shanties, given its reference to a "bowline" which Hugill points out ceased to be an important line to haul on after the 1700's.

And certainly "Roll the Old Chariot" is from the early 1800's, dated by the printing of the revival song of the same name.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 06:58 PM

Placing "Packet Ship" as far back as the 18th C., or even 1855, is conjecture. Hugill's source was a bilingual collection of Danish shanties by a certain Capt. Jensen published in 1923, and it isn't clear whether the song was originally in Danish or English.

Nordhoff & Hall's novel "Mutiny on the Bounty" wasn't published till 1932, but the Mutiny was famous long vefore that. R. M. Ballantyne wrote a novel about it called "The Lonely Island" in 1880 and conceivably the shanty was based on that.

I don't know of any mention of "Packet Ship" independent of Jensen and Hugill.

Hugill thought the words must be old because they state that the crew had never been found. But that doesn't prove anything. Maybe Jensen's text was faulty, or maybe the shantyman just wanted to end his song.

There's no real evidence to show that "Packet Ship" was sung in the 1850's.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 08:36 PM

Lighter, I appreciate your critical reading of these sources and I was premature in accepting Hugill's argument for "Packet Ship". You are right. There really isn't any independent evidence to show that "Packet Ship" was sung in the 1850's. I'm withdrawing it as a candidate for the voyages of the "Julia Ann".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 09:29 AM

In TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST, Dana mentions the shanty "Time for us to go" ("Leave her, Johnny, leave her") three times, on pages 277, 285, and 301. I think that it is a good candidate for the voyages of the "Julia Ann". Here is an Australian version, from the Carey Collection sung by George Pattison, called "Leave Her Jollies, Leave Her" (Malcolm Forbes, in this same collection, also sings this song):

http://warrenfahey.com/ccarey-s9.htm

From A SHIP OF SOLACE, we have this:

http://www.archive.org/stream/ashipsolace00mordgoog#page/n316/mode/2up

From the C. Fox Smith PermaThread, we have this:

thread.cfm?threadid=85881#1596084

From Cecil Sharp's ENGLISH FOLK-CHANTEYS, we have this:

http://www.archive.org/stream/englishfolkchant00shar#page/2/mode/2up

From John Ward's web site, we have two versions, one from Shay's IRON MEN AND WOODEN SHIPS, and one from David Bone's CAPSTAN BARS:

http://www.jsward.com/shanty/LeaveHerJohnny/index.html

And from Gibb Sahib, an enroute pumping version that seems particularly suited to the last two voyages of the "Julia Ann":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjNbPMAK7_I&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=130

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 10:11 AM

The line "Time for us to go" could certainly have turned at asome point into "Time for us to leave her," especially since the rhythm is better served by two syllables than one.

But it's still conjecture. "Time for Us to Go" may have been a different song entirely, or a song to the same tune with quite different lyrics, etc. There's no way to tell.

I don't know if there's any evidence to show that "Leave Her Johnny" was sung in the 1850s, though "Across the Western Ocean," mentioned by Alden, at least has the same tune.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 10:15 AM

Dana says too that "Time for Us to Go" had "a rollicking chorus." I'm not sure that "rollicking" applies to "Leave Her Johnny" in any of its forms.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 08:07 AM

Here is a link to Hugill's discussion of "A Hundred Years Ago" as a candidate for Dana's "Time for us to go". It does have a "rollicking chorus" but the evidence for it being Dana's song seems slim to me.

http://www.chivalry.com/cantaria/lyrics/a_hundred_years_ago.htm

Another possible but unlikely candidate for Dana's "Time for us to go" might be a song found in the ROXBURGHE BALLADS Vol. 8, by William Chappell (1873), p. 448, called "Twas Time For Us To Go" (this is in the Digitrad):

http://books.google.com/books?id=A9cUAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA1-PA448&lpg=RA1-PA448&dq=%22Twas+time+for+us+to+go%22&source=bl&ots=8sMNdAr3L

There is really no way to know one way or the other whether either of these songs are the song that Dana talks about.

It seems to me, and I am certainly not the expert in any of this, that with the exception of "Cheerily Men" there is not much historical/critical evidence for clearly identifying any of the shanties that are mentioned in Dana's TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST. I am ready to set aside Dana as a historical source for possible shanties sung on the "Julia Ann", and move on to some other possibilities.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 10:18 AM

John-

What's needed is a time machine but they're still under development, expensive and unreliable. Last time I had access to one I ended up stuck in the mudflats above my knees with the tide coming in.

Re-reading Dana and Nordfeld (click here for on-line book) has its advantages!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 03:16 PM

At 10:00 a.m. on April 3, 1837, the ship "Quebec" hoisted her anchor in the harbor at Portmouth and sailed to New York. At the capstan the crew sang "Sally Brown", according to an eye-witness, Captain Marryat, a passenger, who recorded the words and the ongoing dialog in his book A DIARY IN AMERICA, p.38-44:

http://books.google.com/books?id=luZEAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22A+Diary+In+America%22&source=bl&ots=Rs2tyoVHqu&sig=jqdJx

While I cannot document the existence of "Sally Brown" in San Francisco or Sydney between 1850 and 1855, and I have no actual record that it was sung on board the "Julia Ann", we do know from the above reference that it was in existence and had been sung on the packet ships. We also know that eventually it arrived in Australia because it is in the Carey Collection and was sung by both Pattison and Forbes:

http://warrenfahey.com/ccarey-s5.htm

http://warrenfahey.com/ccarey-mf1.htm

It has been widely collected but from a later time so we know that it lasted through the remainder of the 19th century and into the 20th century. Among others, the following:

http://www.archive.org/stream/englishfolkchant00shar#page/32/mode/2up

http://www.archive.org/stream/musicofwaterscol00smituoft#page/n85/mode/2up

http://www.archive.org/stream/ironmenwoodenshi00shayrich#page/6/mode/2up

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20774/20774-h/20774-h.htm#Sally_Brown

thread.cfm?threadid=85881#1595330

http://books.google.com/books?id=iCJcjx3QMdkC&pg=PA337&lpg=PA337&dq=%22Sally+Brown%22+shanty&source=bl&ots=IpNxS1ymUo&sig=DKE4BB

Here are two versions from Hugill, sung by Gibb Sahib:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVUn_v3jIZA&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=62

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLHoNjWjC4o&NR=1

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 03:18 PM

Of course that should read "Portsmouth".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 03:44 PM

Roxburghe credits "Time for us to Go" to Leland, who "avouches it genuiness."

However, Hugill's testimony seems to indicate that "A Hundred Years Ago" may well be Dana's "Time for Us To Go" with a different chorus.

One hint of a connection between the shanties is that both alternatives, "A Hundred Years Ago" and "Time for Us to Go," rhyme, are interchangeable in meter, and concern the subject of time. Hardly conclusive, but it would be somewhat more likely for one to morph into the other, if morphing occurred, than into something quite unrelated. Of course, it could be just coincidental.

Hugill says that "A Hundred Years Ago" is *also* called "'Tis Time for Us to Go." The fact that he repeats his alternative title as a subtitle and then expicitly repeats it again as an alternative chorus suggests to me that the variant chorus is one he actually recalled hearing at sea, rather than something to emphasize a theory. Supporting this interpretation is the fact that the title Dana gives is a bit different: "Time for Us to Go" instead of Hugill's "'Tis...." If Hugill was just speculating, he had no reason to introduce the "'Tis" or to carefully repeat it in the chorus.

Even if the shanties were the "same," we still have no idea what words Dana might have heard. In that early period of shantying, they may have been entirely improvised.

"Sally Brown" is a good candidate for 1854-55 because we know it was sung before the Civil War. But we still don't know what words might have been sung on that particular voyage.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Joybell
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 03:56 PM

John, Ive been looking at this period too. First in relation to my family who came to Aus. from Cornwall in 1848, and also in researching an unrelated performer. Naturally, being a singer of old songs, it's the songs I've noticed.
I've read a lot of diaries kept by passengers. So far I've found mention of several popular songs of the period -- sung by either the sailors or the passengers, or both. I've not seen mention of a shanty -- as such -- or even a work song -- as such.
Is it only work songs that you are looking for?
Also is it just the run from San Francisco?
Has anyone suggested you look at family history sites? Often there are quite detailed accounts of voyages to Australia.
Good luck.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 06:52 PM

Thanks, Lighter, for your thoughts on "Time for us to go". And you are right about "Sally Brown". At this point all I can do is "suppose" and "maybe". Some version of "Sally Brown" may have been sung on the "Julia Ann". Historically, it's possible.

Joybell, I have Captain Pond's memoirs. As far as I know, the log of the "Julia Ann" was lost in the shipwreck in 1855. There is no mention of any songs or shanties in the memoirs. In other accounts of the last voyage by some of the Mormon passengers, there is only mention of singing hymns. I would be interested in any documented shanties sung on board any ships sailing from San Francisco to Sydney in the 1850s. Or for that matter, from anywhere to Australia in that decade. The crews were constantly getting mixed up and re-grouped and I'm supposing that the shanties did, too.

At this point, I'm looking at documented shanties for the first half of the 19th century. A big sweep, but not a lot of printed evidence from the time.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 08:49 AM

On Friday, October 11, 1839, Francis Allyn Olmstead sailed on the whaler "North America" from the port of New London, returning in early February of 1841. This voyage took him to Hawaii and to Tahiti. He arrived in Tahiti on Thursday, September 10, 1840 (p. 271). This was about thirteen years before the "Julia Ann" put in there sometime between April and June of 1853.

http://books.google.com/books?id=sqxy9F9a9ggC&dq=Francis+Allyn+Olmstead&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=azcwa7ziV8&sig=cEFPLm9

In a journal entry for February 11,1840, Olmstead mentions two sea shanties, and gives a verse and the music for each of them. One is a version of "What shall we do we a drunken sailor?" And the other is perhaps a version of "Heave 'er Away" (p. 115-116).

The fact that these songs were being sung on board a whaler rather than a merchant ship doesn't mean they couldn't have been sung on board of the "Julia Ann". It is important to remember that her first mate on the third and fourth voyages, Peter Coffin, who was "an old whaler of fifteen years experience on the Pacific Ocean." (Pond's memoirs). This would put him all the way back to the time of Olmstead's voyage.

Since we know that these two songs were being sung in the South Pacific prior to the voyages of the "Julia Ann" I would suggest that they "could" have been sung thirteen to fifteen years later on her trips from San Francisco to Sydney between 1853 and 1855.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 10:38 AM

John-

"Rio Grande" is usually considered one of the oldest capstan shanties, with its reference to the gold fields ("golden sands") of Southern Brazil in the 18th century, as suggested by Hugill and C. Fox Smith.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 11:44 AM

Brace yourselves, shantymen:

I'm confident that the "Rio Grande" of the shanty is indeed the one between Texas and Mexico. The "golden sands" are plain yellow sand.

Why do I think so? Because there's no trace of the shanty "Away, Rio!" before the Mexican War. Because the Texas Revolution and - especially - the Mexican War made the Rio Grande newsworthy in the U.S. And because - brace yourselves - the so-called "18th Century gold rush" to Rio Grande do Sul, now entrenched in folkie folklore, may never have happened.

The reference books I've seen agree that "minor" gold deposits were discovered in Rio Grande do Sul as early as the 17th Century. However, they do not seem to have created any international "rush."

There really was a Brazilian gold rush in the 18th Century, but it wasn't in Rio Grande do Sul. It was in the state of Minais Gerais, hundreds of miles away.

So I see no evidence that "Away, Rio!" was sung earlier than the 1830s or (more likely) during or after the Mexican War of 1846-48.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 12:36 PM

Lighter-

"Folkie folklore" indeed!

I suppose Doerflinger is also wrong with regard to locating the Rio Grande region in Southern Brazil, and that he made up the version of the song with these lyrics in SONGS OF THE SAILOR AND LUMBERMAN, p. 64:

"There the Portugee girls may be found"

Doerflinger does state that the reference to "golden sands" is not "gold fields" but the shifting sand shoals in the Rio Grande estuary.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 01:47 PM

The area of "Rio Grande" has long been important for sugar production. It is in northern, not southern Brazil, in the area that sticks out to the east. The name is more for the large mouth of the river, not the river itself; the city and port of Natal are there. After some arguments with the Dutch, the city grew after c. 1650.

Doerflinger, in the same notes, quotes Captain Tayleur; "This shanty was generally sung aboard those little Baltimore vessels that used to run down to Sao Paulo and back to the United States with coffee- ....."
Speaking of Natal and the great wide harbor called "Rio Grande" by the Portuguese, ".....it was a beautiful place, and the sailors used to love it- and the song was sung by seamen all over the world."
It is an area also noted for coffee, which was grown there quite early.
Lots of "Portagee" girls- and the area still sought by tourists (mostly European and S. Am).

In other words, the area, and chantey, have nothing to do with gold, but with coffee, and perhaps hides, from this area of fine, golden sands and, undoubtedly, some good watering holes for thirsty seamen.

When did Brazil become important in the American coffee trade? This is the likely time for the chantey to have originated. Probably mid-19th c. after the Mexican War.

I doubt that Rio Grande del Norte between Texas and Mexico had anything to do with the chantey.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 03:48 PM

Well, Q and Charley, I've rethought and investigated the matter. I wonder how many shantymen were actually thinking of Brazil as they sang the song?

Obviously some. Tayluer was one of them, and so was Hugill, but they seem not to have been thinking of the same place.

Others had different ideas. Hjalmar Rutzebeck, for example. His version begins, "In Texas I met with a beautiful gal." Regardless of the porigin of his version, the "Rio" of the original made him think of Texas. Surely he was not unique in this.

Q is undoubtedly correct that Rio Grande do Norte (or "del Nord" as H. has it) is a more likely candidate than do Sul: it's on the extreme NE corner of Brazil. But H. links the shanty to do Sul and explicitly rejects do Norte. Evidently do Sul was the Rio *he* was thinking of.

The couplet about "Portuguee gals" is the only element in the song that connecting it to Brazil. Without it, it could be any Rio Grande.

And not all versions include the couplet.

Of nineteen *independently* collected texts of "Away, Rio!" (almost as many as have been in print, I'd say) I've been able to look at, the line about Portuguese girls appears in just *two.* (I didn't count one- or two-stanza fragments as "texts." I found several of these, but none of them included a reference to Portuguese girls or Brazil.) Doerflinger mentions the line, but he doesn' say that Tayluer sang it.

There is no way to know whether the "Portuguee" couplet was part of the original song or a later invention.

Several texts involve a milkmaid, one is a version of "The Bold Princess Royal," etc. With that degree of fluidity, one might argue almost anything about the song's origin. Some versions are bound to "Rio Grande," suggesting a Brazilian state, but just as many are bound to "the" Rio Grande, suggesting a river.

The coffee trade may well have had something to do with the development of the song in any case. It looks as though there was a huge increase in American imports of Brazilian coffee between 1835 and 1840, most of it coming into New Orleans. I don't know about hides or other imports. Whether this influenced the rise of the shanty is anybody's guess, but it makes me wonder whether an overall boom in trade around the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean in the '30s and '40s may not have helped create the "Golden Age" of shantying.

C. F. Smith seems to have been the first writer to suggest, very cautiously, that the shanty might go back to the eighteenth century.
Her sole evidence was "golden" sands.

The upshot is that "Away, Rio!" was undoubtedly not sung in the 18th Century, had nothing to do with gold, and, in the sailor's mind, did not *have* refer to either Rio Grande do Norte or do Sul.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 04:13 PM

This is the kind of discussion I've been hoping for on this thread! "Away, Rio" has been on my list but I hadn't gotten to it yet. Am I hearing agreement among Lighter, Q, and Charley, that regardless of "where" we locate the "Rio Grande" geographically, the shanty was popular by 1850 and "could' have been sung on board the "Julia Ann" on her voyages in1853-1855?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 04:14 PM

Agree with your last line.
Sailors probably singing of a 'generic' Rio Grande, nothing specific in mind.

Many 'Rios' in Latin America, several had ports, and any largish river with a harbour at the mouth could be 'grande'.
Products from Porto Alegre, in Rio Grande do Sul, would have been hides and lumber. Rio Grande (the city) in the same area is equally important.

I should have noted that the Rio Grande in the north of Brazil is known as Rio Grande do Norte, thus the name is easily confused with Rio Grande del Norte between Mexico and Texas.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 04:49 PM

John-

You seem to be on firm ground with regard to the fact the "Rio Grande" was a popular shanty by 1850.

I would also agree that few shantymen would have any clue of the origin of a shanty, other than who they learned it from. There is only speculation.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 06:47 PM

Hey, Joe, I posted another long screed on "Away Rio!" a few minutes ago and it vanished!

What I can remember:

An 1868 shanty article says that "Rio Grande" "is perhaps the greatest favorite" of them all. The article quotes one stanza, proving that it's this song.

That's the earliest reference to the song know to exist.

No one explicitly mentions hearing the song before that date and Alden, writing in 1882 about shantying in the '50s, doesn't mention it.

A great song like this must have traveled fast - another reason to consider that it may have originated in the '60s.

The evidence either way is so scanty as to be inconclusive.

Right now, though, 1868 is the year to beat.

PS: "The Song of the Memphis Volunteers," a minstrel song anout the Mexican War in "National Songs, Ballads, and Other Patriotic Poetry" (1846), ends (almost) with the lines "We are bound for de Rio Grande. We are bound for de Rio Grande." But the tune is given as "Lucy Neal," which as far as I can tell bears no resemblance to the tune of the shanty.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 08:01 PM

Lighter-

No doubt the War with Mexico provoked a lot of popular songs, minstrel or otherwise, which became "seeds" for shanties. It would be wonderful if "Rio Grande" could be traced back to one of those songs.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 11:55 AM

I like the idea that "Rio Grande" came out of the context of the Mexican War, 1846-48. We know that this war produced another sea shanty "Santiana". I would also like to think that both of these shanties were in use during the California Gold Rush of 1849-50. Here is the link for the song Lighter mentions "The Song of the Memphis Volunteers":

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3401804742.html

In a book published in 1957, called BENJAMIN BONNEVILLE, SOLDIER-EXPLORER, 1796-1878, by Helen Markley Miller, she says on page 150, "To the Rio Grande they rode, singing the popular song of the newly begun war: 'Oh, say were you ever in the Rio Grande?'"

http://www.archive.org/stream/benjaminbonnevil011734mbp#page/n153/mode/2up

And in his book on Lincoln called WITH MALICE TOWARD NONE (1977), Stephen Oates says on page 76, "In all directions volunteers headed for the front to the blare of bugles and tuck of drums, singing "Away You Rio" and vowing to defend the flag."

http://books.google.com/books?id=zrJwKXz_vUgC&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=%22Away,+You+Rio%22&source=bl&ots=D0w0tG0B-4&sig=sb4dCysqri8Qu

Unfortunately, neither Miller nor Oates gives any documentation for these statements. So we are left with the possibility that "Rio Grande" could have originated during the time of the Mexican War and may have been sung during the California Gold Rush.

On the other end of things, we know that it made its way to Australia because it was collected from George Pattison in South Australia in 1924.

http://warrenfahey.com/ccarey-s3.htm

It seems to have been quite popular in that part of the world later in the 19th century. In a novel from New Zealond, called PAGEANT (1933), by Edith J. Lyttleton, writing under the name of G.B. Lancaster, she has "Back in the steamy smoke a rough voice was singing the catch of a sea chanty: 'So, fare ye well, my bonny young girl, We're bound for the Rio Grande..."

http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-LytPage-t1-body-d2-d9-d4.html

In his book WHITE WINGS VOL. I FIFTY YEAR OF SAIL IN THE NEW ZEALAND TRADE, 1850-1900 (1924), Henry Brett talks about Mr. J.L. Kelly's diary on board "The Algoa Bay" and he has a section on "Picturesque Chanties". On page 275, he mentions "Rio Grande".

http://www.nzetc.org/etexts/Bre01Whit/Bre01Whit274.gif

Finally, the singing of "Rio Grande" at all kinds of social functions gets mentioned a number of times in newspaper articles from New Zealand and Australia (I think). Here is a list (in the Search box, type in "We're Bound For The Rio Grande"):

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=q&hs=1&r=1&dafdq=&dafmq=&dafyq=&datdq=&datmq=&datyq=&sf=&ssnip=&tyq=all&fu

The most interesting of these newspaper accounts is this one from the "Tuapeka Times" of July 2, 1887, which actually has a text of the song:

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=TT18870702.2.25&e=-------10--1----0-all

And here is Gibb's technicolor rendition of Hugill's A & B versions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izl51d4gQfw&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=25

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 05:21 PM

John, re Miller and Oates.

Research Rule # 6: If the evidence is very late, not explicitly sourced, and (most especially) fits perfectly with modern expectations, don't trust it without seeing the (supposed) original source.

Popular historians sell books by making history "come alive." I've seen many examples over the years of even careful writers innocently weaving harmless, colorful "facts" into their narratives with no basis but supposition. And for most people, placing "Away, Rio!" in the 1840s is pretty harmless.

After all, everybody "knows" that sea shanties were sung in the 19th C. and that "Away, Rio!" was a popular shanty and oh, wow, they really were bound to the Rio Grande! So obviously they sang the shanty.

Wrong. Rather, not be assumed without evidence we can see.

Your New Zealand and Australian news articles, however, are valuable finds. Seeing the words of "Lowlands" fitted to "Away, Rio!" is a healthy reminder of just how fluid the shanties could be (much more fluid than their revival versions). Did either writer date the song to the 1850s? (If only the "Julia Ann" had sailed in the '60s instead!)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 05:35 PM

Captain Tayleur, 1856-to? (81 in 1937), who mentioned "Rio Grande". He would have been 18 in 1874; it is unlikely he would have served as an able seaman before this date.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 07:22 PM

Lighter, I am in complete agreement with Research Rule #6. I just found it interesting that there was the idea out there that this shanty was sung as the "volunteers" were heading out to Mexico. Hugill mentions the possibility that the shanty was based on a shore ballad. I wonder if the "Song of the Memphis Volunteers" might fit. Pure speculation.

I need to go back and read a bit more about Mr. Kelly's diary on board the "Algoa Bay". I'm not sure of the dates of that voyage.

I've been trying all day to remember/figure out what that 1868 article on shanties that you mention is and where it is. Can you refresh my memory on that. Thanks.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 08:14 PM

Olny One Mexican War Ballad I am familiar with mentions the Rio Grande; Buena Vista, by Albert Pike.
It has no bearing on the chantey.
First lines-

From the Rio Grande's waters to the icy lakes of Maine,
Let all exult! for we have met the enemy again;
Beneath their stern old mountains we have met them in their pride,
And rolled from Buena Vista back the battle's bloody tide;
etc. etc. and similar-

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 08:29 PM

The article is "On Shanties," in Once a Week (N.Y.), Aug. 1, 1868, pp. 92-93. You can view it through Google Books.

But I have better news yet, even though it makes me look bad: it turns out that Alden (1882) really does place "Rio" among his   shanties of "thirty years ago."

I missed it before because it's almost "invisible": no title, "Fish of the Sea" lyrics, words printed tiny between the musical staves with the choruses in italics. But there's no doubt that it's there:

I'll sing you a song of the fish of the sea,
Rolling Rio!
I'll sing you a song of the fish of the sea,
To my Rolling Rio Grande.

Hurrah, you Rio, Rolling Rio,
So fare you well, my bonny young girls,
For I'm bound to the Rio Grande.

So, while 1868 is still the year to beat, we at least have believable testimony that the shanty was known aboard American ships in the 1850s. (And Alden's supposedly "negative evidence" disappears.)

We can now say that what little testimony we have places the shanty was sung in the 1850s. And FWIW (not much), this earliest reported text has "the" Rio Grande.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 09:09 PM

"The Fishes," or "Boston Come-All-Ye," is mentioned in Colcord. Did Alden base his "30 years ago" on confused memory of this song rather than the mixture of "Rio Grande" and Fishes"? Still open to question.

Whall has "Fishes" with "Blow ye winds westerly."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 10:02 AM

Lighter-

Very interesting. Now we're back to the 1850's for some version of "Rio Grande."

I'm impressed with the variety of other songs that shantymen shoe-horned into "Rio Grande." We have verses to "Fish of the Sea;" there's also the "milk-maid," "Liverpool" and the "Gold Rush" versions mentioned by Hugill, and Bullen's first verse is a verse from the "Bold Princess Royal." The next time someone in the circle raised the version from the "Blue Book," RISE UP SINGING, be sure to point that out!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 10:56 AM

Lighter, thanks for the information on that 1868 article. I had it right in front of me all day but had not associated it with that date. For the rest of you who may be interested, here is the link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=8dRMAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA92-IA4&dq=To+Rio+Grande+we're+bound+away&lr=&cd=11#v=onepage&q=To%20Rio%20Gra

Is this article by William Chambers? Here is another, slightly fuller version of the same article from the Saturday, December 11, 1869 volume of "Chambers's Journal":

http://books.google.com/books?id=feIXAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA795&dq=To+Rio+Grande+we're+bound+away&lr=&cd=16#v=onepage&q=To%20Rio%20Grande

And here is the link to Alden's article in "Harper's New Monthly Magazine" (July 1882):

http://books.google.com/books?id=fWIJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA285&dq=%22I'll+sing+you+a+song+of+the+fish+of+the+sea%22&lr=&cd=20#v=onepage&

Alden says, on page 282 "Let us suppose ourselves on board a Liverpool packet thirty years ago." This would have been 1852. This is a somewhat ambiguous statement. He doesn't actually say "this is what I heard thirty years ago" or "this is how these songs were actually sung thirty years ago" or "back in the 1850's these are the songs you would hear". He does talk elsewhere in the article about the disappearance of the "typical "Jack" : "the "packertarian," and the able seaman of the clipper-ship fleet - has, however, utterly vanished." (page 281) This definitely suggests that he is looking back on a previous era.

Here, as in so many cases, we are up against the question of the difference between the "written" and the "oral" traditions. There always seems to be a bias towards the 'written" traditions. Something is not authoritative if it is not written down and dated. But we know in so many areas that "oral" traditions continued developing right along side of the "written" ones. The question with regard to how we treat Alden is whether he qualifies as "written" tradition or whether he is handing on "oral" tradition". The answer is both. He is definitely handing on oral tradition by writing it down. But, from whence and from when?At this point the more conservative position is that he documents remembered oral tradition in 1882.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 10:59 AM

Charley, the tune is so good that its ability to attract migrant verses is no surprise.

Q, the fact that Alden gives only a single stanza (and just one repeated line of solo) suggests that this was the way he heard the song. Anything is possible, but I doubt very much that he could have forgotten the actual words of "Away, Rio!" and replaced them with words from a completely different song ("The Boston Come-All-Ye") which he does not mention. The melodies of the two songs, while clearly disntinguishable, seem to me to have a similar contour. A shantyman knowing one and starting to sing the other could, I think, easily import verses. And as we know, shantymen generally had little motivation to stick to a "prescribed" text.

The only thing that bothers me about Alden's recollection of "thirty years ago" is that he says nothing at all of how or when he actually learned the shanties. The theme of the article is that shantying is almost extinct and that some one needs to preserve them before steam-power exbtinguishes them completely. (I find it significant that the anonymous writer in 1868 seemd to have no concern that shantying might be dying out, and that the first two published books of shanties appeared about 1888.)

It is just possible that Alden learned the shanties in the 1860s or '70s, knew they were old, and innocently dated his texts to "thirty years ago" without worrying whether that was strictly accurate. Harper's was a sophisticated magazine but not an academic journal, and no one would have objected to that sort of fudging. "Thirty years ago" (i.e., 1851-52) also suggests the California Gold Rush, which Alden may have thought of the Golden Age of shanties.

I will find out what I can about Alden and report back. His article suggests careful observation and consideration of shanty-singing. He even mentions Hugill's "hitch" though he doesn't use that word!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 11:06 AM

Lighter, we got up on the same side of the bed this morning! And our thoughts crossed over each other on the way out.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 11:14 AM

John, I need to learn to wtite faster.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 12:42 PM

Born in Williamstown, Mass., William Livingston Alden (1837-1908) was just old enough to have learned his shanties in the 1850s, but neither _Who's Who_ nor his obituary in the N.Y. Times suggests that he took a sea voyage before 1885, when he was appointed U.S. Consul- General in Rome by Pres. Cleveland. He held the post till 1889.

Wiki warning: Despite the authoritative sources, Wikipedia's brief bio claims he held the office of Consul-General for the rest of his life - another indication of Wikipedia's unreliability. (If they could get that wrong....) What he did do was to remain in Europe, living in Paris and London while writing professionally.

Alden practiced law during the Civil War, then became a journalist and editorial writer. He wrote humorous editorials for the Times for
a number of years, and was well known for his books for young people and a biography of Columbus. He helped introduce sport canoeing to the United States in the early 1870s.

Unfortunately, we know nothing about when Alden learned his shanties. His Harper's article suggests that he'd heard them sung often - quite possible for an interested journalist living in New York City.

On the other hand, he didn't move to NYC, apparently, till the 1860s.
Until then, all his residences seem to have been landlocked.

It seems as though "thirty years ago" was a literary device and that none of Alden's shanties can be dated that far back on the basis of his 1882 article.

You can't win 'em all. Obviously.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 01:46 PM

&sourceThanks for the background on Alden. I think it helps to know about our sources. And, writing faster, which I don't do, doesn't help at all when I keep deleting my own messages by traveling off to another site! I wish there was a built in memory on "Reply to Thread", or maybe in my own brain.

I want to return to Francis Olmstead's whaling voyage of 1839-41. On page 116,

http://books.google.com/books?id=sqxy9F9a9ggC&dq=Francis+Allyn+Olmstead&printsec=frontcover=bl&ots=azcwa7ziV8&sig=cEFPLm9

he gives us two shanties sung on board the "Quebec". One is "Ho! Ho! and up she rises" and the other is "Nancy Fanana". And perhaps even more importantly than the single verses provided for each song are the tunes that he gives us. It is these tunes that help us identify the contemporary equivalents that we have today.

The first one is, dare I say, obviously a version of "Drunken Sailor". I think the tune clinches this. This song became a very popular shanty, perhaps even more so after it came ashore! It is supposed to be an old shanty, and according to Hugill, it was "sung in the Indiamen of the John Company." (p. 134/'61) I suppose that this means it could even go back to the 18th century. However, I have not found anything earlier than Olmstead for this shanty. Hugill does not give a source for his claim. I'm wondering if anyone knows what that might be or of any other earlier datings for this shanty.

On the other end of things, it did make it out to Australia, showing up in the collection sung by George Pattison.

http://warrenfahey.com/ccarey-s24.htm

And here is Gibb Sahib's really remarkable version of this shanty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvs5Se5vUCY&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=51

I really enjoyed that! And I am claiming that a version of this shanty that "could" have been sung on board the "Julia Ann" on her voyages from San Francisco to Sydney between 1853 and 1855.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 01:51 PM

Here's to "Drunken Sailor"!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 02:49 PM

Just a bit more on Alden & "Away, Rio!" before moving on.

Alden was apparently still on the staff of the N.Y. Times when an unsigned article appeared on Jan. 27, 1884, called "Minstrelsy on the Sea." The fact that the few shanty words given differ from those in Alden's 1882 article in Harper's indicates, however, that he was unlikely to be responible for the Times article, which, BTW, does not make the suggestion that shanties might have been dying out.

Alden estimated in 1882 that a good shantyman knew "at least seventy-five song." The 1884 article estimates a more modest "score or more."

Among a few shanties mentioned is the milkmaid version of the song with the (partial) chorus, "I was bound for the Rio Grande."

The entire article is worth reading:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=980DE2D61538E033A25754C2A9679C94659FD7CF

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 06:43 PM

Correction: Olmstead sailed on the "North America", not the "Quebec". Too many links! It was Captain Marryat who sailed on the "Quebec".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 08:42 PM

Lighter-

That a very interesting article by Alden above, and evidently a reference to the "milkmaid" version of Rio Grande.

Thanks for providing the link.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:29 AM

The other song that Olmstead gives us from his whaling voyage of 1839-41 is "Nancy Fanana" (page 116). Hugill (page 315/'61) and others suggest that this is a variant of "Cheerily Men" which we have already discussed from Dana, and accepted as a possible candidate for shanties sung on the "Julia Ann". We don't know if "Cheerily Men" was sung on the "Julia Ann" or not, or which variant might have been used. Olmstead might narrow this down for us.

Olmstead sailed out to Tahiti on a whaling vessel 13 years before Pond arrived there on the "Julia Ann". Pond's First Mate on his third and fourth voyages was Peter Coffin, a Pacific whaler with fifteen years of experience in that work prior to signing on with Pond. Coffin certainly could have known "Nancy Fanana".

In February of 1849, in Boston harbor, Ezekiel I. Barra, was preparing to sail out to California. On the docks he is watching another ship, the "Sweden" load up and cast off. On page 11 of his memoirs A TALE OF TWO OCEANS, he describes the process of getting under way and gives us "Nancy Banana" as a halyards shanty:

http://books.google.com/books?id=v6oqQ1CiaGYC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=%22Haul+Her+Away%22&source=bl&ots=mdCKZL6pkZ&sig=kQ14HcLcH8QKA

This means that "Nancy Fanana" aka "Haul 'er Away" was heading for San Francisco just about the same time that Franklin Pond was. He sailed for Chagres, Panama, on January 17th, 1849, on the bark "H.S. Bartlett":

http://www.sfgenealogy.com/californiabound/cb035.htm

So, I would say that there was a good chance that the "Haul 'er Away" version of "Cheerily Men" that we find in Olmstead and in Barra could have been sung on board the"Julia Ann" in 1853-55. Here is a link to some previous discussion on Mudcat of this shanty:

thread.cfm?threadid=72326

And here is a helpful comment from Gibb Sahib:

thread.cfm?threadid=119776&messages=75&page=1&desc=yes#2681112

And here is Gibb's version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWN9ZkIhtWk&feature=response_watch

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:09 PM

I have already suggested that the third and fourth voyages of the "Julia Ann" provided plenty of opportunity for the use of some pumping shanties, since the "Julia Ann" sprung a leak in the harbor at Sydney on her third voyage out because she was thrown on the shore by a "buster". One of the pumping shanties I have suggested is some version of "Stormalong". See here:

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=1#2814669

In his book THE MERCHANT VESSEL, first published in 1857, Charles Nordhoff tells of his experiences on a merchant vessel. While he does not specifically date them one would assume that these experiences happened within a few years prior to 1857, which would put them in the same time frame as that of the "Julia Ann", which was ship-wrecked in October of 1855.

Nordhoff describes the loading of cotton in Mobile, and gives us three "chants" used by the gangs of "screw men" to pack this cotton into the ship's hold. While in Nordhoff's context these songs are used as "cotton-screwing" songs, we know that they were also used at sea as shanties. Many of these "screw men" were Bristish and Irish sailors who went south to work in the winter time. The first of these songs is "Old Stormy", a version of "Stormalong" (page 41):

http://books.google.com/books?id=Kko9AAAAYAAJ&dq=Charles+Nordhoff,+The+Merchant+Vessel&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=CU3NFxy

"Old Stormy" also shows up in Alden's article in Harpers (1882) that we have been discussing (on page 284):

http://books.google.com/books?id=SsoaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA284&dq=To+me+way+storm+along!&lr=&cd=8#v=onepage&q=To%20me%20way%20storm%20al

And out on the other end, in Australia, "Mr. Stormalong" shows up in the singing of both George Pattison and Malcolm Forbes:

http://warrenfahey.com/ccarey-s23.htm

So not only am I suggesting that "Stormalong" might have been used as a pumping shanty on board the "Julia Ann", I am also saying that historically, it is certainly possible that it could have been there.

I would be interested in seeing some of the possible earlier versions of "Stormalong" or its precedents from the so-called " 'Ethiopian Collections' of Negro folk-song" which Hugill suggests might go back to the 1830s or 1840s (Hugill, p. 71/'61).

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 04:04 PM

John-

I think you're making headway with Stormalong as a pumping shanty for the 1850.

"Fire Maringo" also was mentioned by Nordhoff as a stevedore shanty for screwing cotton, which was may have been used later as a halyard shanty; we have no idea what the original tune was, only the way it was reset to a tune "channeled" by Royston Woods of the Young Tradition in 1967.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 06:35 PM

Charley, I want to talk about all three of the other songs mentioned by Nordhoff: "Yankee Dollar", "Fire Maringo" and of course "Highland Laddie". I think all of his material could qualify for the timeframe of the "Julia Ann". So, who knows what about "Yankee Dollar"? Here are the lyrics as Nordhoff has them:

    Oh, we work for a Yankee Dollar,
Ch: HURRAH, SEE - MAN - DO,
      Yankee dollar, bully dollar,
Ch: HURRAH, SEE - MAN - DO,
      I want your silver dollars,
Ch: OH, CAPTAIN, PAY ME DOLLAR.   

Here is an intriguing reference from A HISTORY OF MUSIC & DANCE IN FLORIDA, 1565-1865 By Wiley L. Housewright, page 289:

http://books.google.com/books?id=YIYXAQAAIAAJ&q=Oh,+we+work+for+a+Yankee+dollar&dq=Oh,+we+work+for+a+Yankee+dollar&cd=10

I don't have this book but I'll sure take a look at it next time I go to the library. Has anybody seen it?

And here is an intriguing reference that I haven't been able to date or put into context. I think it is fiction and perhaps recent. It's from THE LENORE: A MARITIME CHRONICLE, by Terence O'Donnell (page 286). Does anybody have more information on this one:

http://books.google.com/books?id=jO0CcdwBRP8C&pg=PA286&dq=Oh,+we+work+for+a+Yankee+dollar&lr=&cd=6#v=onepage&q=Oh%2C%20we%20work

It looks like it came right out of Nordhoff. Does Hugill mention this song anywhere? And is it to be found in any other collection? I have looked and haven't found it but I may have missed it.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:21 PM

John-

That's a hard one to answer because there is a well known West Indies shanty called "Shallow Brown" which also has a line about working or being sold for the Yankee dollar, and there is a Calypso sung which also has a line about "working for the Yankee dollar." So Goggle searches are going to turn up thousands of hits.

However, I do wonder if the "Yankee Dollar" that Nordhoff noted is related to the shanty version of "Pay Me My Money Down," collected in the West Islands.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Rowan
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 09:43 PM

Reading through the thread has prompted a few thoughts, which may be thread drift but may lead to other biographies.

1 Australian miners on the Californian goldfields in the early 1850s were responsible for the introduction of the secret ballot, known at the time as the Australian Ballot. It's unlikely that any biographies in the US will necessarily draw any links or references to shanties but, you never know.

2 Many Americans became miners on the Australian goldfields and, during the battle of Bakery Hill, celebrated as the Eureka Stockade uprising on the Ballarat goldfields, there was even an "American Brigade". The members of this Brigade were, like the rest of the surviving miners, charged with treason but ultimately no convictions were reached. Many of the "Australians" (some were Italian, for example) apparently thought that The Americans had 'got off' because of legal shenanigans but that's a different story. The reason I mention it is that there may be biographies written by some of those in the American Brigade; there are several from "Australians" but they wouldn't have sailed across the Pacific, while the Americans surely would have.

3 Seriously 'thread drift'. Peter Hyde was a merchant seaman working container ships across the Pacific between Sydney and San Francisco in (at least) the 1980s-90s. He would pick up concertinas for repair in one port and repair them on the return trip to that report. There are several entertaining stories about his exploits that have been made, by Arthur Bower, into a song that uses Lachlan Tigers as its tune. Arthur (who plays both English and Anglo leather ferrets) and Peter both hail from Adelaide and Peter now makes very excellent button accordions under the name Stormalong.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 09:59 PM

Rowan, thanks for this information. There is so much about this period and the interchanges between the two countries that I know nothing about. I think it is the case that Australians came to California to dig gold and then returned to Australia, to dig gold there. And of course Americans went with them! I think the rowdy bunch on Pond's first voyage that caused him so much trouble was probably a mixed group of returning Australians and Americans headed for the Australian gold fields. This trip took place in 1853, with the "Julia Ann" arriving in Sydney on August 5.

Have I seen "Ballarat" in relation to a shanty somewhere?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 09:15 AM

Here is some excellent discussion on "Stormalong" from Gibb and others over at the "Rare Caribbean" thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=119776&messages=218&page=4&desc=yes#2605339

Charley, "Shallow Brown" was the first thing that popped into my mind when I saw "Yankee Dollar", too. But there seems to be a lot of variety on the currency issue in "Shallow Brown". I've seen and heard "Spanish Dollar" as well and was assuming that it was earlier, but I haven't done the work on this yet. My sense is that someone is being sold to a "Yankee" in some versions. But the story is quite different from "working for a Yankee dollar".

I also wondered about "Pay Me My Money Down", but I haven't found any crossovers on this yet. Anybody else have an idea on either of these possibilities with regard to "Yankee Dollar"?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 10:04 AM

Here is where I saw "Ballarat" in connection to a shanty - scroll down to"Cheer boys cheer":

http://warrenfahey.com/maritime-2.htm

The verse is:

On the fields of Ballarat
You're scarce allowed to wear a hat
Cheer boys cheer
For this new and happy land

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 11:54 AM

John-

Here's another historical note on the pumping shanty "South Australia" based on the title of a popular minstrel song in CHRISTY'S PANORAMA SONGSTER, published by William H. Murphy, NYC, NY, circa 1850. p. 129. The song is titled "Nancy Blair" and other than her name shares no lines with any version of the shanty I know. However, "Nancy Blair" is mentioned by name at least twice in "South Australia" verses recorded by A. L. Lloyd and Ewan MacColl (from an old sailor Ted Howard of Berry) on Blow Boys Blow, and the name might well have been inspired by the minstrel song as the crew were pumping their way to or from Australia:

As I walked out one morning fair,
Heave away, haul away,
It was there I met Miss Nancy Blair,
An' we're bound for South Australia. (CHO)

There's just one thing that grieves me mind,
Heave away, haul away,
To leave Miss Nancy Blair behind (the polite version!)
An' we're bound for South Australia. (CHO)

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 02:14 PM

Nancy Blair does not seem to appear in other versions of "South Australia," "Rolling King," etc.

Several women's names appeared in sailors songs.
May just be coincidence without relation to the Christy's song by Dick Wilson.

(Ok, Ok, comments like this one serve no purpose.)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 04:02 PM

Q-

Ted Howard's version does appear unique with its references to "Nancy Blair" but it's also a version that is widely covered by contemporary nautical singers who either got it from Blow Boys Blow or from someone else who did.

But there are no coincidences. Everything will fit when the puzzle is finally solved!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 08:37 AM

When I was a young man, one of the first sea shanties I heard and really liked was "South Australia". This was from The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem. It was a great song. It still is. Later I heard it from A.L. Lloyd and Ewan MacColl. Interesting but not nearly as exciting. And later yet, when I was reaching my maturity, I heard the master, himself (on a recording) sing it. I enjoyed Stan Hugill's rendition very much and began to realize what this shantey might have actually sounded like once upon a time. Since then I've heard numerous other versions. I still really like this song.

And it seemed like a natural choice for the voyages of the "Julia Ann". I wanted it to be there. But I am having some serious second thoughts. And I really appreciate Charley's help and his efforts to get it back to the 1850s! But, so far as I can tell, the fact is that the earliest written account of it comes from Laura Smith's MUSIC OF THE WATERS, (1888) page 49-50. She says that she got it from a "coloured seaman at the "Home":

http://books.google.com/books?id=jEALAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA49&dq=%22Heave+away+you+ruller+kings%22&cd=3#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Although not published until 2004, Frederik Pease Harlow's CHANTEYING ABOARD AMERICAN SHIPS contains his accounts of "chanteying" aboard the "Akbar" in 1875. This would place his version of "South Australia", on pages 33-35, thirteen years earlier than that of Laura Smith in1888 (but still 20 years after the time of the "Julia Ann"). In his book THE MAKING OF A SAILOR, OR SEA LIFE ABOARD A YANKEE SQUARE-RIGGER (?) Harlow mentions a shipmate named Dave who claims to have sung "South Australia" on board the clipper ship "Thermopylae" in 1874 (p. 220):

http://books.google.com/books?id=maCNIgbmJMgC&pg=PA220&dq=the+clipper+ship+Thermopylae&lr=&cd=77#v=onepage&q=the%20clipper%20shi


The next we see and hear of "South Australia" as far as I can tell is from Joanna Colcord in her ROLL AND GO - SONGS OF THE AMERICAN SAILORMEN (1924). On page 86 of the 1964 edition, she has "Rolling King" and she speculates that it "probably belongs to the days of the British wool-clippers, which ran between London and Melbourne or Sydney." But she gives no documentation for this statement.

There is an article by William Saunders entitled "Folk Songs of the Sea" in MUSICAL OPINION AND MUSIC TRADE REVIEW, London, July, 1927, p. 985, that I have not seen but that apparently gives a version of "South Australia".

The next mention, as far as I know, is in William Doerflinger's SONGS OF THE SAILOR AND LUMBERMAN (first published in 1951 as SHANTYMEN AND SHANTYBOYS) 1990, p.70-71, where he gives a version from the singing of William Laurie of Sailor's Snug Harbor. Laurie began sailing at the age of 14, sometime between 1872 and 1874. Doerflinger speculates that this shanty "originated, probably, in the British emigrant ships that ran out to Melbourne and Sydney, Australia, carrying their hundreds of homesick colonists halfway round the globe to less crowded lands beneath the Southern Cross."

And then we come to Stan Hugill in his 1961 SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS, p. 193-196, where he gives us his own version and then the versions from Harlow and Doerflinger. He does not say where his first version comes from. He speculates that this "is a shanty which probably made its appearance during the emigrant days, when thousands travelled by sailing ship to Semaphore Roads, Port Adelaide, South Australia."

In his book SHANTIES AND SAILORS SONGS (1969) p. 59, Hugill says the following:

"Gold was found in Australia in 1851-53, [just prior to the sailing of the "Julia Ann"] but until an agricultural peace fell on that up-to-then wild country of convicts and bush-rangers, no regular shipping companies supplied the needs of the people of the "Colonies" as sailors called Australia. The ships of Green and Dunbar, however, made occasional passages out to Sydney in between Oriental voyages. With the opening of the Suez Canal in 1869 and the new-fangled "tin-kettles" taking over the China tea trade, many of the clippers and the newly found Baines' Blackball line began to carve regular trade routes between the Mother Country and the Colonies. Apart from the capstan shanty "South Australia", no new work-songs were produced in these ships either, and many authorities feel that even this song, more than likely, started life in the days of the California gold rush, since versions are to be found giving:
   
   Heave away, haul away!
   And we're bound for California!

This brings us up to the late 1860s and early 70s,...." (page 59)

Hugill seems to be suggesting in this paragraph that "South Australia" originated during the '60s and '70s on board the clipper ships. I have not been able to locate gold rush song he quotes above. That would be an important link.

Finally, we come to A.L. Lloyd and his seaman, Ted Howard of Barry, New South Wales. It's not exactly clear whether the version that Lloyd recorded in 1958 on "Across the Western Plains" is the same as Mr. Howard's version or not. Later, Lloyd was joined by Ewan MacColl on "Blow Boys Blow", and it seems that some variation of that recording was the basis for the one by the Clancys and T. Makem, etc. There may be some additional information out there on Ted Howard and Lloyd's version that I have not been able to access. All I know about Mr. Howard is that he was "old" and that Lloyd collected this song from him sometime before 1958:

http://www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~zierke/lloyd/songs/southaustralia.html

There is one other source that I found unique and interesting. It comes from Lydia Parrish's SLAVE SONGS OF THE GEORGIA SEA ISLANDS (1942):

thread.cfm?threadid=48959#739457

I don't have this book and in my original note back in '02, I failed to give any information that she might have published about the dating of this song.

http://books.google.com/books?id=awOzMKju54QC&pg=PA220&dq=Haul+away,+I'm+a+rolling+king&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

So, to bring this very long note to a conclusion, unless I have missed something, I do not think we can push "South Australia" back to the early 1850s and I am going to withdraw it as a candidate for the voyages of the "Julia Ann". I would love to be mistaken about this. I don't think Charley's suggestion about "Nancy Blair" is strong enough to do the trick. But thanks for that information, Charley.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 11:13 AM

Re "Nancy Blair." Probably not a pure coincidence, because the name is not especially common. OTOH, it may have circulated simply as a convenient rhyme. Q is correct that there is no other visible connection between the shanty and the song.

Found three more versions of "Away, Rio!" None mention Portuguese girls.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 11:24 AM

Lloyd's notes to _Blow Boys Blow_ say Howard from "South Wales," UK, not New South Wales, Australia. OTOH, "South Australia" was supposed to enable him to "die happy." Yet the village of Barry in *New* South Wales (named in 1890, evidently) has fewer than 300 inhabitants (acc. to Wikipedia, that is).

Given what we've discovered about Lloyd's fudging of sources, do we have any corroboration that "Ted Howard of Barry" was a real person?

Re Nancy Blair: Lloyd's stanzas about "up and down" and "all night and...all day" are comparable to those found in the bawdy song, "Three German Officers." Probably not a coincidence, but the significance is unknown.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 11:26 AM

John-

Nice summary! So you've been researching South Australia since at least 2002.

Hey, I tried to nail it with a somewhat tenuous thread to the minstrel song. It's the best I could come up with.

I do wonder what the source of such other Australian verses is such as:

I wish I was on Australia's strand...
With a bottle of whiskey in each hand...

Australia is a very fine place...
To get blind drunk's no disgrace...

Australia is a very fine land...
Full of spiders, fleas, and sand...

I don't find these verses listed in any of the volumes listed above. Maybe I channeled them from a shipload of drunken prospectors on their way to or from Australia in 1850!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 12:46 PM

A. L. Lloyd also recorded "South Australia" on TEN THOUSAND MILES AWAY, as re-released as a CD by Fellside Recordings in 2008; the original recordings were made in the 1950's. The notes to the songs are by A. L. Lloyd as edited and revised by Paul Adams. The version is again attributed to Ted Howard of Berry in South Wales. The earliest written reference to the song that Lyoyd could find was a 14-stanza version transcribed by Laura Smith from "a black seaman in the Sailor's Home in Newcastle upon Tyne , in the early 1880's." Smith published the song in MUSIC OF THE WATER. Again there is no claim that the song was peculiar to the Australia run, or how much older the sung was. It appears to be one of the few sea songs that was sung both as a shanty and a forebitter.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 01:46 PM

Thanks, John, for the excellent historiography of "South Australia."

I'll just add a couple bits.

I do have this article:
1928         Saunders, William. "Sailor Songs and Songs of the Sea." Musical Quarterly 24(3):339-357.

He cites The related/variant chantey with the Cape Cod girls theme. Here's the passage:

"I have only recently also received from America a similar composition which, although
employed as a shanty by the Cod Fishers of Newfoundland, with
whom it is a prime favourite, is likewise more of a folk-song than
a true shanty:—

Cape Cod girls they have no combs,
Heave away, Heave away,
They comb their hair with codfish bones,
We are bound for Australia.
Heave away, my bully, bully boys,
Heave away, Heave away,
Heave away, and don't you make a noise,
We are bound for Australia

Cape Cod boys, they have no sleds,
Heave away, Heave away,
They slide down hill on codfish heads,
We are bound for Australia. "

Note: "folk songs of the sea" is Saunders' term for what we might call forebitters.

Parrish (1942) has this version, pg 220:

Haul away, I'm a rollin' king
haul away, haul away
I'm boun' for South Australia.
Yonder come a flounder flat on the groun'
haul away, haul away
I'm boun' for South Australia.
Belly to the groun' an' back to the sun
haul away, haul away
I'm boun' for South Australia.
Ain' but one thing worry me
haul away, haul away
I'm boun' for South Australia
I leave my wife in Tennessee
haul away, haul away
I'm boun' for South Australia
Haul away, I'm a rollin' king
haul away, haul away
I'm boun' for South Australia

It seems like there was no grand chorus, which is about right if the stevedores were using it for hauling. Also note the pure use of "haul away". And while we're there, notice the pure use of "heave away" in LA Smith's, Harlow's and Saunders' versions. The mix of heave and haul -- possibly because the task was pumping -- seems to first show up in Doerflinger's Laurie. Lloyd's version would seem to have popularized heave/haul, but I can't say whether he heard that from his oral source or was influenced by Doerflinger -- a text he is known to have used as part of making up his renditions.

To my mind, Colcord's 1924 version *must* be copied out of LA Smith. (And I always like to remind how much of Smith's work was plagiarized from the 1882 article, suggesting that even more of it was "culled" from other sources.) And I would not be surprised if Saunders culled his Codfish version "recently received from America" from Colcord -- either that, or the song was very well standardized around that time. Hugill's text version of South Australia/Rolling King looks to be a mash of all the sources he'd *read*, if not also what he used to sing/hear.

Note also that the tune of Harlow's South Australia is very similar to Smith/Colcord, though clearly from an independent source....and this tune has some significant difference to the well-known tune today. In fact, Doerflinger's and Hugill's text versions are also closer to the others' tune, not today's. Today's no doubt come again from -- no surprise -- Lloyd & Co., fine purveyors of contrived ditties. Most disappointingly, in his later recorded performances, Hugill seems to adjusted to the new revival version in terms of tune and chorus; he spiced up his versions with some of the saltier verses, however.

When I have sung this in the past, it has also been a mash up of what I've read/heard. So a small disclaimer: when I did it for the YouTube project, at that particular point, I was not so concerned (as I was later) with realizing Hugill's *text* version to a T.

Gibb

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 02:19 PM

Parrish, Slave Songs of the Georgia Sea Islands, gives no information about "Haul Away, I'm a Rollin' King."

She does discuss some terms she heard from laborers, stevedores and sailors which may be new to some of us.

Roll ballast- stones which the windjammers came loaded with were landed on a temporary dock, and rolled in wheelbarrows to waste land. There are islands of ballast between St. Simon's and Brunswick.

Ocone (river) boxes- monstrous square boxes, made with rough planks; cotton is piled on them to keep it dry.

wing-tier- means just what the word implies [?]

kelson knees- a line of timber placed inside a ship along the floor timbers and parallel with the keel (see OED).

beam-dog- a grappling iron with a fang which clutches the log or piece of timber to be handled.

Block and tickle- block and tackle.

Narrow trunkin'- method of stowing timber. Learned from Irish stevedores.

Loading a vessel- "The head stevedore was a white man who contracted to load a vessel for so much per thousand feet. Big ships employed four colored stevedores called headers and used derricks; schooners needed only three headers- one outside and two inside ["headers were the stevedores responsible for the proper loading of a vessel"- Colcord]. Short lumber went into the hatch, but for long lumber, you had to "knock out the port," which was generally in the bow.
"In stowing cotton, ..... the bale was lowered into the hold in a sling with three hooks attached, something like an ice-hook with an extra prong. Then it was rammed tightly into place .... by a "snilo"- a post against which the cotton jack was placed.
"Pullin' lumber meant shoving it on a long greased skid, waist-high, made up of a series of carpenter's horses. There were generally four men at one end, and the same number at the other."

Driver- The important Negro slave whose task was to see that the orders of the white overseer were carried out. [Later replaced by the term 'Cap'n'].

Some of these terms may appear in chanteys and other work songs.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 02:43 PM

Gibb, good to have you in this discussion. I was hoping somebody might bring up the "Codfish Shanty". I wore myself out before I got there! I haven't looked, but is there any solid evidence that it is a variant of the other "South Australia"? It feels like a different song to me.    Thanks for filling in the Saunders material, and for the comments on the Parrish material. And Q, thanks for the additional material from Parrish. Charley, I wasn't able to confirm (or disconfirm) Lloyd's comment that L. Smith got her version in the *early* 1880s. It seemed like a bit of elaboration on his part, since she doesn't say anything about "early". Lighter, I appreciate your question about Ted Howard. I did do some searching on him but didn't find anything.   

Hopping back up to "Yankee Dollar", Hugill does mention it, right where you would expect him to, in his discussion of Nordhoff, on page 16. This has to be one of the shortest comments in his book: "The tune of this shanty is unfortunately lost; it seems to be of Negro origin."

He doesn't do much more with "Fire, Maringo, Fire Away", the third shanty mentioned by Nordhoff, which I want to take up next.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 03:20 PM

Here's a link to Laura Smith's MUSIC OF THE WATERS, 1888, mentioned above; it's certainly the first attempt to provide a comprehensive list of shanties from all over the world: click here for on-line book

Amazing that one can find such books on-line.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 06:55 PM

I'm looking for sea shanties that *could* have been historically sung on board the bark "Julia Ann" on her three and a half voyages from San Francisco to Sydney between 1853 and 1855. I'm especially interested in shanties that have some historical documentation for the period prior to 1853. And I am willing to consider ones mentioned for ten years or so after 1855, especially if they refer back to an earlier period.

Such is the case for Charles Nordhoff and his book THE MERCHANT VESSEL, published in 1856 (for some reason I said 1857 above). I was not able to figure the exact dates for his voyages, but they took place sometime prior to 1856, which gives them overlap with the timeframe for the "Julia Ann". Gibb Sahib, in this post to another thread says that it was sometime between 1845 and 1853 when Nordhoff was at sea. This would be a perfect timeframe to coincide with that of the "Julia Ann".

thread.cfm?threadid=63103#2566821

In his book, Nordhoff discusses being in Mobile and gives us four "chants" that were used for "screwing cotton". We've already looked at "Stormalong" and "Yankee Dollar". Now I want to look at "Fire Maringo", which is his third "chant". You will find it here on page 42:

http://books.google.com/books?id=MKoPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA42&dq=%22Fire+maringo,+fire+away%22&cd=2#v=onepage&q=%22Fire%20maringo%2C%20f

I think that there are two earlier references to this shanty. There is a book by Charles Erskine entitled TWENTY YEARS BEFORE THE MAST - WITH THE MORE THRILLING SCENES AND INCIDENTS WHILE CIRCUMNAVIGATING THE GLOBE UNDER THE COMMAND OF THE LATE ADMIRAL CHARLES WILKES 1838-1842. This book was not published until 1896, but it would seem to record events that happened much earlier. Erskine is in New Orleans on board the ship "Charles Carol". I think that this was sometime in September of 1845 (scroll back up several pages until you come to Erskine's departure from New York and there you will find a date - I realize there is a discrepancy between the title and this date). He gives two cotton-screwing songs: "Bonnie Laddie" and "Fire Maringo". The overlap with Nordhoff is interesting.

http://books.google.com/books?id=61tHAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA297&dq=%22Lift+him+up+and+carry+him+along%22&lr=&cd=2#v=onepage&q=%22Lift%20h

What is even more interesting is that his words are exactly the same as Nordhoff's, except that Erskine has one additional verse at the very end:

        In New Orleans they say,
        Fire, maringo, fire away,
        That General Jackson's gained the day,
        Fire, maringo, fire away!

This would seem to be a reference to Andy Jackson's victory at the "Battle of New Orleans" in the war of 1812, which doesn't necessarily mean that the shanty goes back to that period. By the way, Erskine's words for "Highland Laddie" are not the same as those found in Nordhoff.

And here is another early reference, that can be dated as December 31,1838. Phillip Henry Gosse, in his LETTERS FROM ALABAMA (1859), also mentions the cotton-screwing shanty, "Fire the ringo" (page 305-306, at the very end of his book):

http://books.google.com/books?id=nmIVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA305&dq=%22I+think+I+hear+the+black+cock+say,&lr=&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22I%20thin

This is a different version from both Nordhoff and Erskine. He does mention the verse that Erskine has above although he reverses the lines:

        "Gin'ral Jackson gain'd the day;
        Fire the ringo, &c.
        At New Orleans he won the day;
        Fire the ringo, fire away!"

Here is some excellent discussion of Gosse by Gibb Sahib in another thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=63103#2566474

And here is reference to an article on Gosse:

http://www.euppublishing.com/doi/abs/10.3366/E0260954108000430

I have been going back in history with these sources. Here is how I see them.
        1. Gosse, December 31, 1838 off of the "low shore of Mobile Point"
        2. Erskine, September, 1845 in New Orleans
        3. Nordhoff, between 1845 and 1853 in Mobile

None of these sources offer us a tune. The tune heard today is quite good, but of recent composition. But I think it is obvious that all three of these sources are talking about the same song. And they all predate the voyages of the "Julia Ann". I realize that "Fire the Ringo/Fire Maringo" is not presented as a deep sea shanty in any of these sources, but as a cotton-screwing shanty. But we know that other cotton-screwing shanties went to sea, so why not this one?

Has anybody found a reference to this song after Nordhoff? Unless we could find some evidence that this song "went to sea", I'm not sure what relevance a "cotton-screwing" song would have on a voyage from San Francisco to Sydney. However, it is a song used at a capstan, if I understand the business of cotton-screwing at all, so theoretically it could have been used at sea.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 08:42 PM

Erskine's verse on "General Jackson" obviously foreshadows the common opening stanza of "Santa Anna."

The tune requires some slight adjustiment to fit.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 08:49 PM

Lighter -- try "Stormalong"

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 08:55 PM

The Erskine text is irksome. I am confused. Is it possibly a fake account? It really does smack of a combination of what Gosse and Nordhoff wrote, and to which he would have had access. The similarities are just too scary for me.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 09:04 PM

John,
I imagine the cotton screwing chants were more like halyard chanteys.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 09:34 PM

I should have said "Gosse" not Erskine. I read Erskine's book long ago so do not recall much about it. The picture of the author in 1842 suggests that the account, copyright 1890, is generally authentic. A faker in 1890 would be unlikely to fake a daguerrotype of himself as a youngster simply to support his account. Why bother? Few would question it anyway.

FWIW, Nathaniel Philbrick accepts Erskine's book as genuine in his "Sea of Glory" (2002).

Without committing myself on the book as a whole, it wouldn't be too surprising if Nordhoff and Gosse's accounts had not refreshed Erskine's memory of something he'd heard long before - or thought he could have heard.

However, it would be wise not to assume that Erskine's account of the songs is independent testimony.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 07:05 AM

I appreciate all of the careful thinking about "Fire Maringo". It does seem as though someone is referring to someone without footnotes! The one seemingly solid piece seems to be that of Gosse. While Nordhoff has been generally accepted as the final word, all of his publicating and re-publicating gets very confusing. And he is unnecessarily vague with his dating. (I'm beginning to sound like a teenage romance novel!) However, I have had the same problem with Captain Pond's memoirs. Because his log book for the "Julia Ann" was lost, he is basing his accounts of these voyages on his memory and he is writing in 1895, which is forty years after the events (except for his account of the wreck and the rescue, which were written very soon after the events described). He, too, is often either vague on dates or leaves them out entirely. Fortunately, there are enough surviving independent historical records to reconstruct most of the facts of his voyages with regard to dates. If there was only something equivalent with regard to shanties! But there is not and we remain in the area of speculation and "historical coulds".

Gibb, thanks for correcting my nautical ignorance with regard to the use for "Fire Maringo". I'd like to think that it might have served as a halliards shanty on the "Julia Ann". Does anyone know of any reference to this song after/later than Nordhoff?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 10:31 AM

I now want to turn to the last of the four cotton-screwing "chants" that Nordoff probably heard in Mobile, Alabama, sometime between 1845 and 1853. It is "Highland Laddie". You will find it on page 42 of his book THE MERCHANT VESSEL (1856):

http://books.google.com/books?id=MKoPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA42&dq=Were+you+ever+in+Quebec,+Bonnie+Laddie+Charles+Nordhoff,+The+Merchant+V

I know that this shanty probably comes from or is based on an old Scottish song and tune of the same name. That is beyond my area of knowledge and concern. Check this thread for more information on that:

thread.cfm?threadid=54643#2814365

I am interested in its use as a shanty in the first half of the 19th century. I am also aware that there is a variant called "Donkey Riding".   The song that Nordhoff quotes seems to be the basic shanty itself, but in his case it is being used to stow/screw cotton.

I might as well go ahead and mention Erskine again in this context since he also presents a version of "Highland Laddie" in his book TWENTY YEARS BEFORE THE MAST (1896 - was he trying to outdo Dana?), page 297. Again, I am estimating that this event, which supposedly happened in New Orleans, took place in the fall of 1845.

http://books.google.com/books?id=61tHAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA297&dq=Was+you+ever+in+Quebec,+Bonny+Laddie,Highland+Laddie&cd=1#v=onepage&q=

Erskine also presents "Highland Laddie" in the context of screwing cotton. In a book entitled A VOYAGE ROUND THE WORLD; INCLUDING AN EMBASSY TO MUSCAT AND SIAM IN 1835, 1836, AND 1837, published in 1838, a W.S.W. Ruschenberger, M.D. mentions "Highland Laddie" as a sea shanty:

http://books.google.com/books?id=X43QMow1drcC&pg=PA59&dq=Bonnie+Laddie,Highland+Laddie&lr=&cd=200#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Dr. Ruschenberger's voyage was aboard the "U.S. Ship Peacock, commanded by C.K. Stribling, Esq." (from opening page called "Advertisement"). On Tuesday, the 22nd of September, 1835, "on the island Mazzeira, which, according to the charts, lies about ten miles from the coast of Happy Arabia..." (p.56) (the ship had run aground and the crew was lightening the load trying to get her free), Dr. R. says "When she moved more easily, those at the capstan sang, to the tune of "The Highland Laddie,"

        "I wish I were in New York town,
        Bonny Laddie, Highland Laddie," &c." (p. 59)

It is interesting that the initial phrase is turned around and made a statement rather than the more familiar question of "Were you ever in...."

I've not come across any other earlier references prior to 1853 so far. To sum up this early material, we have the following:

   Dr. Ruschenberger in September of 1835
   Charles Erskine in 1845, maybe
   Charles Nordhoff sometime between 1845 and 1853.

This shanty is found in SAILORS SONGS OR 'CHANTIES'" (188?) Frederick J. Davis R. N. R. , with music by Ferris Tozer. (I don't have access to this). It is in Colcord (first pub. 1924) and in Doerflinger (1951), who has it from Captain James P. Barker, who went to sea in 1889. These three sources seem to indicate that it was known in the latter part of the 19th century. Hugill has two versions, one of which is from Bosun Chenoworth, a Dundee whaler, and the other one from the timber droghers, but with no mention of a specific source. He also has a version of "Donkey Riding" but with no source.

I find it interesting that "Highland Laddie" does *not* appear in so many of the standard collections, and for being such a "popular" shanty, there's not a lot of written notice of it in the 19th century.   Did it fall out of favor, or did "Donkey Riding" replace it, or was it always there in the oral tradition?" Speaking of which, here is Gibb Sahib's rendition:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t425KzdvrXo&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=53

I think that "Highland Laddie" is a good candidate for a shanty that *could* have been sung of board the "Julia Ann" on her voyages from San Francisco to Sydney in 1853-1855.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 11:09 AM

Any reference to shantying before the 1860s is valuable, and the discovery of an actual fragment from 1835-38 especially so.

"Highland Laddie" does not appear in the first edition of Davis & Tozer, but it does in the third. I have never seen Edition 2.

D & T's publication dates are uncertain. The likely dates (based on the British Library record, information in WorldCat, and D & T's prefaces) seem to be 1886 or '87 for the first edition, 1888 for the second, and some time in the very early '90s for the third.

The tune of D & T's "Highland Laddie" differs a little from the usual. The words have nothing to do with ports, however. They narrate instead the laddie's whaling career.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 11:13 AM

I've been focusing some research at the Australia end with regard to stevedore shanties. The Australian poet Edwin J. Brady was working as a tally clerk on the Sydney docks in the 1890s and was fascinated by the work chants of the screw-jack crews as they were jamming in bales of wool or cotton into the holds of ships. Here's an example from one of his poems "Laying on the Screw":

They will raise a chanty forrard of the stevedorin' kind:

''I'm goin' down to Tennessee,
Oh, take my love and come with me;"
Or, it's "Cheer up, Mrs. Riley," or "Blow, my Bully Boys, Blow"

There's also a reference to "Bully in the Alley" in another poem titled "Lost and Given Over," and a wonderful unique chant of "Re-a ri-a rally!" which appears in several poems.

Perhaps some of our Australian friends are aware of earlier research or notes of what might be happening on the docks. I'm planning to ask members of the Sydney based sea music group The Roaring Forties and our good friend Danny Spooner in Victoria if they are aware of any early documentation of work chants.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 12:18 PM

Thanks, John, for that Ruschenberger! I had not seen that before.

BTW, earlier I was not correcting you about the use for Fire Maringo, just stating my impression. Stowing cotton was an "intermittent" action like hauling, and unlike walking around the capstan. However, in later days (or at least how we understand it now), Hieland Laddie is a capstan or walk-away, having the grand chorus. The cotton screwing references don't offer a grand chorus; even if they did, I don't think there'd be any problem in fitting the intermittent action to that chorus.

I see little difference between "Hieland Laddie" and "Donkey Riding." One just swaps the phrase there in the chorus. It would mainly be relevant whether the "donkey riding" phrase had developed yet in the time period under question. Nonetheless, later citations of Donkey Riding, I'd think, are in a way "heirs to the legacy" of Hieland Laddie.

Hieland Laddie has a special place in my heart. To me, it is the archetypal chantey.

I have explained elsewhere what I think to have been the nature of the genre "chantey" (chant, chanty) in those times, so here I won't be as articulate of as detailed. But basically my impression is that these cotton-stowing chants and the sea-based chanteys that developed directly from them were a genre with characteristics and a scope that was much more distinct (limited?) than what we now call "chantey." This is because, while they shared certain characteristics/forms, once they were adopted by others to serve a function, that function became the main criterion. The many more songs and rhymes, drawn from various sources and having different characteristics, were put to work at that function and also subsumed under the "chantey" category.

But the stuff that was first called "chanty" IMO had more discreet characteristics. One of these was the style of couplets that were used as verses. One style was the biographical theme shared by "Stormalong", "Santa Anna," "General Taylor," and "Fire Maringo." Another was the device of naming places as in "Hieland Laddie"/Donkey Riding, "Tom's Gone to Hilo", etc. I don't view the verses like "Was you ever in Quebec" as part of any song; I don't think they give Hieland Laddie its identity, and by the same token, it is a weak basis for tracing this or that song to another. Nor do I think, on the other hand, that these are "floating verses." It is a device that *is* the chantey genre as it was then...just something that was done. In other words, these sort of verses were a characteristic of the genre as a whole, not of any particular pieces.

As an example, the "turned around" phrase could be part of "Blow the Man Down," in its supposed earlier form of "Knock a Man Down," as here-- my attempt of realizing the 1850s version described by Adams in ON BOARD THE ROCKET:

Knock a Man Down

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 08:09 AM

What sea shanties were in existence in 1853? I am assuming that if they were in existence anywhere in the world, then they *could* just as well have been found in the port of San Francisco in the 1850s. Stan Hugill, in his 1969 book, SHANTIES AND SAILORS' SONGS (page 45), says that,

"In fact the great constructive period of the shanty is now agreed to have been between the 1820s and the 1850s,..."

And, on page 48, he says,

"...before the 1850's neither shanties nor forebitters were mentioned as such in         the nautical literature of the day."

Then he goes on to document the few exceptions which we have been looking at in some detail.

It is safe to assume that a number of shanties did not come into until later in 19th century (1860-1880), and that many of the earlier ones continued to evolve in both content and use throughout that century. It seems to me that it should be relatively possible to sort out these later shanties, and I'm sure that this has been done. We've suggested that "South Australia", in the forms that we know it, comes from the second half of the century.

So, theoretically, that leaves a vast number of earlier shanties for the period from 1800-1860. I'm new at all of this and if you will excuse the irony, I often feel totally at sea. I have a tremendous respect for the reality and significance of "oral traditions". And I have a equal respect for the need to do what I call "historical-critical" research on these traditions and to try to date them when possible. I am also fascinated by how one derives historical information from received oral traditions. So, we sing a song today that we know is "old", coming to us out of almost 200 years of oral tradition. Perhaps it finally got written down by someone in the 1880s and was collected in several versions from around the world in the forty years after that and finally ended up in Hugill's SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS. He says it comes from such and such an era, say that of the packet ships. He knows this by oral tradition and by "internal evidence". Because in most cases there does not seem to be any external evidence.

Am I on track here? Is this the correct nature of our situation? Sea shanties are certainly not the only area of historical research where this process is under investigation, and I don't see that this search is unique. I just want to make sure that I am not missing something important.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 09:59 AM

This morning I have been trying to imagine the scope of this project. Right now the wide screen is falling off the horizons! But, undaunted, looking back from 1855 when the "Julia Ann" ran aground on that coral reef, what are some of the larger areas of influence on the sea shanties that may have existed then?   Here is a very broad and partial list that occurs to me at the moment. These may or may not be in exact historical order and of course there are major overlaps.

1. The SLAVE TRADERS, which lasted for hundreds of years. I'm thinking primarily of the shipping of Black Africans to the Americas. But this also involves the shipping of molasses to New England and rum from there, at least in one historical phase of the slave trades.

2. This brings to mind the whole business of PIRATES. It is interesting to me that both the slavers and the pirates tend to be earlier than I realized, perhaps mostly before the 19th century(?).

3. Then there are the EAST INDIA TRADERS, which are also earlier, ending, as I understand it in the early part of the 19th century. And I think along with them would have been the CHINA TRADERS.

4. The WHALERS also have a long history running right on through the 19th century.

5. I think it is also important to include WARS, such as the "War of American Independence" (and also "The War of 1812" [I'm writing from an American perspective]), the Napoleonic Wars (and perhaps the earlier French/English Wars), and later in the 19th century (prior to 1850) the "Mexican War".

6. And, forgive me, if necessary, for lumping all of these categories together for the moment, the SHORE SONGS, such as ballads, broadside songs, and popular stage songs. This would also include the Minstrel sources.

7. SLAVE songs and Black work songs

8. And shore based WORK SONGS from other ethnic groups, such as the Irish song "Paddy Works On the Railway".

So far, almost all of these categories pre-date the 19th century and spill over into it. What are the shanties that come from these areas of influence that *could* have been current by 1850? Let this be a rhetorical question for the moment. In the first half of the 19th century, I can think of the following:

9. The PACKET TRADE across the Western Ocean. This raises the larger category of the EMIGRANTS, and the DEPORTEES, not only going to the Americas, but also to Australia.

10. The COTTON TRADERS from the Gulf Ports.

11. The TIMBER TRADERS from both the North and the South, and later the Northwest.

12. What I would call all of the CAPE HORN traffic.

13. The California GOLD RUSH, and also the Australian GOLD RUSH.

14. The CHINA TRADE, and the AUSTRALIAN TRADERS, from the West Coast of America.

15. The SOUTH AMERICAN TRADERS

I suspect that we have songs from all of these sources, in the oral traditions. And I suspect we can and have identified them by "internal evidence", from references within the songs themselves. However, a critical question is how do we judge whether such a reference within the lyrics of a song actually goes back to the time that it mentions? Does "Boney" really go back to the time of Napoleon, or is it looking back on that time from a later viewpoint, and if so, how much later, and can we tell. The same could be asked about "Santianna".

Early on in this thread, MtheGM suggested in answer to my question "They could surely have been any mentioned by Hugill as being sung at that time". And basically that is true. But I would like to review at least some of this and try to bring it into a somewhat sharper focus. As large a scope as this seems, it is historically finite, and perhaps manageable.

And, have we exhausted the earliest written sources?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 10:11 AM

To over-clarify the question: What songs *could* have been current in 1853-1855, and where did the come from? It's the "where did the come from" that has to do with the questions of historical dating and geographical origin.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 10:29 AM

John, I think you are well on track, but I'm dubious about basing detailed conclusions on oral tradition, especially when we're so poorly able to evaluate that tradition.

We know that shantying as so many writers have described it over the past nearly 150 years was the usual practice in British and American merchant sail by the time of the Civil War. Whall and Robinson both went to sea in 1859-60 and reported years later that shantying was then common. The 1868 shantying article confirms that shantying was widespread in the 1860s.

The oldest sailor singers recorded by Carpenter went to sea in the 1850s. AFAIK, none of them suggested that shantying was a new development that took off later.

So we can be certain about the '60s and virtually certain about the '50s.

Things get murkier earlier than that because of the dearth of sources. The few sources that we have give a handful of titles, and a surprising number of these (in Dana) are no longer identifiable.

This suggests to me (and I assume to writers like Colcord, Doerflinger, and Hugill) that most of the best known folk-revival shanties either had not appeared by, say, 1849, or else had not yet circulated widely. Since they have such good tunes and so many shantymen were at work, it would surprise me if they hadn't spread relatively quickly once they came into existence.

It also suggests to me (though the evidence is extremely thin) that there were far fewer "established" shanties in Dana's day. In other words, singers were creating shanties, but individual repertoires were not widely shared and the tunes had not often become so melodic as to spread rapidly or be remarked on by writers. If that were true, it would point to the period around 1830 as the dawn of the shanty. The advances in shipbuilding in the 1820s that many writers have cited as a major influence on the rise of shantying fits well with these educated guesses. (Though they're still just educated guesses.)

It's mainly wishful thinking, IMO, to assume that there was a very long tradition of shanty making in English before writers began to comment on it in the 1830s. Admittedly there were fewer writers then than now, but my guess is that if early shanties had truly memorable tunes (like "Highland Laddie") they would have attracted more attention. Remember that Dana mentions them because, unlike most writers, he had actually sung them at work. They were impossible for him to ignore!

When it comes down to the time when specific shanties became common, I'm afraid the limited number of contemporary mentions leaves us mostly in the dark. (We know even less about which now "indispensible" lyrics were sung.) The limited evidence shows that most of the best shanties were well known by the time Harlow went to sea (on his single voyage) in 1876-77 and a good many of them at least ten years before that.

I concur with Gibb and with Bullen that except for the very few strongly narrative shanties, after the first stanza or two anything could be sung, though I'd imagine that individual shantymen often fell into the patterns they were used to. The overwhelming evidence that solo lines were more commonly repeated than paired up (which is not ncessary to hold a work gang's attention) suggests just how common unrhymed improvisation could be. Shanty singing was not a musical performance. It was just a way of getting work done.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 11:42 AM

Back up with the sightings/citings of "South Australia" I forgot to mention the song in Abrahams' DEEP THE WATER..., called "We Are Bound Down South Alibama" (pg 110) sung by the whalers of Barouallie. It does not jump out readily as a variation of "South Australia," but I think there could be a distant relationship.

Incidentally, I am not following the logic of the conclusion that "South Australia" probably wasn't around in '53.

John, I am not entirely clear of your goals. Certainly the aim of what you eventually want to do or say will determine your methodology. If one is seeking to date the rise of chanteying "as we know it", painting broad strokes, then I think what Hugill, Doerflinger, etc. have said sounds very reasonable. If you look at all the discussions that have gone on (e.g. on Mudcat) about the advent of this or that chantey, you'll find that most are not *positively* documented during the period under discussion -- that is, if your measure of positive documentation demands their direct mention in a piece of writing. However, based on their language, style, melody characteristics, and other historical info, they can be reasonably dated. I am saying this even as a natural skeptic. So I do appreciate the line of thinking that "these chanteys may not really be as old as we tend to think," but lack of references until later does not account for why they would have characteristics of earlier eras of song.

So if, for example, the goal is to produce some proof in the form of a literary reference that "Clear the Track Let the Bulgine Run" was being sung at a date before 1853, then you won't have it. There is no smoking gun. But there are many other pieces of evidence you could present to the jury to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was around by the 1840s. Is this the sort of thing you are asking, i.e. about alternative ways to "prove" besides this straight "literary mention" sort of thing?

If the goal is to perform or to suggest (e.g. in a re-enactment) what was "probably sung" on the voyage, then you really have a lot of pieces at your disposal. With performance --even talk of performance-- this notion of pinpointing an exact thing goes out the window. Because not only will future performances never match past performances, but also past performances never matched each other. One can only capture the gestures, the tendencies, the examples or incidental realizations (what Peirce called sinsigns, I think) -- one can say "the kind of thing that was being done," not the thing that was done.

"Was "South Australia" sung aboard the Julia Ann?" and "What chanteys could have been sung aboard the Julia Ann?" are questions that demand different focus and methodology. Your question, as I understand is the latter. The former question is a great one to ask as part of the process of getting there,as it inspires this literature scan (a necessary step). But the main question calls for more flexible methods, and certainly a more flexible way of viewing the nature of the chantey genre (not as pieces of repertoire but as a practice associated with common gestures). How confusing is that? Feel free to call out my Gibberish.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 11:55 AM

Thanks, Lighter. I appreciate your thoughts on this and I find them helpful. What you say makes sense to me and helps me get a better sense of the overall time period. Your statement that "we can be certain about the '60s and virtually certain about the '50s" is encouraging, and it helps to get those earliest witnesses that are recording their own experiences into that time frame. I think your suggestion that "it would point to the period around 1830 as the dawn of the shanty" is also helpful. And I appreciate the comment about the "advances in shipbuilding". I also am drawn to the "functional" perspective that you and Gibb have taken when you say, "Shanty singing was not a musical performance. It was just a way of getting work done." This sounds right to me and I would agree with it.

The question about "basing detailed conclusions on oral tradition, especially when we're so poorly able to evaluate that tradition" is really important. When I read Hugill, I feel like I am dealing with a lot of "oral" tradition that is being "handed on" by and through him. I respect him as an important and integral part of that tradition. That doesn't for a moment mean I won't question his suggestions. But my critical questions always recognize that he "was there" and a whole lot "closer" to the sources than I can even imagine. He is a part of those "direct" and not-so-direct lines of transmission. And then he commits his recollections of the oral traditions to writing. And these writings become "authoritative" and thus open to critical questioning. An important part of what I am thinking about is how to sort out some of the conclusions drawn by everyone from Hugill on back (and on forward), when there is not clear historical (written) evidence. And I know, that just because it was "written down" once upon a time doesn't necessarily mean that it was "accurate".

I've just checked this thread and there is an important post from Gibb that I haven't read yet, so this is not a response to his comments.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 12:06 PM

Absolutely right about "Hugill and on back," John. Critique the hell out of them!

I do feel that there is something to be said about intuition that comes from experience, however. It is double-edged because it can lead to false assumptions as well as insight. I think that is the dynamic that characterizes Hugill's work in particular.

Gibb

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 12:40 PM

Gibb, thanks for your thoughts on this. I had just come across the song in Abrahams last week and it has been rattlin' around in the back of my head. I, too, would suspect some kind of relationship with "South Australia", but my question would be does it precede "South Australia" or derive from it. This would also be my question with regard to the version from the Georgia Sea Islands in L. Parrish. Does Parrish's version go back to slave days?

With regard to "South Australia" being around in '53, I was taking a fairly literalistic point of view and saying that it would appear that the earliest written dating we can get for this shanty would be sometime between 1872 and 1874, from William Laurie (Doerflinger) and Harlow's "shipmate Dave". This is about twenty years or so later than the time of the "Julia Ann" (1853-55). There's nothing to say that it wasn't around twenty years earlier. And I would like to track down the "Heave away, Haul away, We're bound for California" song that Hugill mentions, which would probably move it back earlier. The other question is how much weight to put on Hugill's comment about "With the opening of the Suez Canal in 1869 and the new-fangled "tin-kettles" taking over the China tea trade, many of the clippers and the newly found Baines' Blackball line began to carve regular trade routes between the Mother Country and the Colonies. Apart from the capstan shanty "South Australia", no new work-songs were produced in these ships either,..."

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=135#2825383

You say, ""Was "South Australia" sung aboard the Julia Ann?" and "What chanteys could have been sung aboard the Julia Ann?" are questions that demand different focus and methodology. Your question, as I understand is the latter." I agree with you on focus and methodology and yes, my question is the latter "What chanteys could have been sung aboard the Julia Ann?"   And what I am looking for help with today is how to establish the "could" with as much historical foundation as the sources allow. Sources here include not only the written references to certain shanties, but the lyrical content of the shanties as they have come down to us. I agree with you when you say "However, based on their language, style, melody characteristics, and other historical info, they can be reasonably dated. I am saying this even as a natural skeptic. So I do appreciate the line of thinking that "these chanteys may not really be as old as we tend to think," but lack of references until later does not account for why they would have characteristics of earlier eras of song."

You ask "Is this the sort of thing you are asking, i.e. about alternative ways to "prove" besides this straight "literary mention" sort of thing?" My answer is "yes" although "prove" is probably too strong a word. And, "One can only capture the gestures, the tendencies, the examples or incidental realizations (what Peirce called sinsigns, I think) -- one can say "the kind of thing that was being done," not the thing that was done." Whoa! Yes! (Peirce yet!)

I'm not interested in "seeking to date the rise of chanteying "as we know it". My "measure of positive documentation" does not demand "their direct mention in a piece of writing". When I am talking about "oral traditions" I am very much including your idea of "performance" when you say "With performance --even talk of performance-- this notion of pinpointing an exact thing goes out the window. Because not only will future performances never match past performances, but also past performances never matched each other." Oral traditions include both the actual singing of the shanties, but also the telling of the stories about them and how they came down to us, as well as actually passing on sets of lyrics, dates, etc.

This thread is definitely a work in progress and I think I am with you on this, and I greatly appreciate the course corrections. Without being presumptuous, I feel a bit like Captain Pond might have felt when he took that earlier voyage on the "Julia Ann" down to Valparaiso as a passenger and began to learn about sailing. I hope this provides some clarification. This sums it up for me: "But the main question calls for more flexible methods, and certainly a more flexible way of viewing the nature of the chantey genre (not as pieces of repertoire but as a practice associated with common gestures)."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 12:43 PM

I'm the one who can't write fast enough today. Gibb, our notes crossed. My last one had not seen your last one, but thanks. I think we're on the same page. I agree with the "double-edged" nature of experiential intuition, even though I would pretty much claim it as the basis for my life.   J.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 01:15 PM

Styles in "pop" melodies changed much more slowly in the nineteenth century than the twentieth, and of course styles in "folk" melodies changed even more slowly than that.

I'm not sure how often one can rely on melody to help decide whether a shanty came into existence in 1840 or 1880. A simple melody could appear at almost any time.

Look at military "jodies." As far as we can tell, they started in World War II - maybe late in World War II - and the usual tune for the couplets is hardly more than a chant. That simple tune, by the way, with seemingly improvised verses, appears pretty much in Lomax & Lomax "Our Singing Country" (1940) as "The Marrowbone Itch." (You read it here first.)

Slightly OT: Hugill seems to have met Harding around 1932. If Harding was 70, he was still too young to have heard shanties before the late 1860s. The same is probably true of Hugill's other informants. I don't believe Hugill ever went into detail about the shanties his father knew, although his father was probably born later than Harding. Even in 1922, a seventy-year old man would have been just too young to have learned shanties at sea before the about 1860. The collapse of Alden's "1850s" versions into hearsay is really a shame, though I suppose his source(s) gave him reason to believe that that's when they were sung.

Our historical info on individual shanties before ca1860 is so limited as to allow all kinds of conjecture, pro or con. Absence of evidence is not proof of absence. As Hugill often says at various points, "We'll probably never know for certain."

The information we want is always a generation earlier than we have. (One reason why people become folklorists.)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:07 PM

South Australian history (non-native) begins with the first shipload of settlers in 1836. It did not become important until later; the first mention of shipping from there is from c. 1850, when timber was sent out for the gold fields in New South Wales.
(Wiki and other online references).

Nine ships were involved in moving the first c. 650 settlers to South Australia (no convicts), I haven't found any songs about them.

Huntington, "Songs the Whalemen Sang" found many songs in ships logs and diaries. Some are sea songs from the the 1850s-1860s or earlier, but many were songs popular on land.

"Rolling Down to Old Mohee," Atkins Adams, out of New Bedford, 1856, is a great song and a great find by Huntington.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:18 PM

Another old version of "Rolling Down to Old Mohee," 1859 journal, in thread 33324 and DT: Rolling Down

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:22 PM

oops! no link.
Rolling Down

Subject: Lyr Add: COAL BLACK ROSE
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:48 PM

Another way to date some shanties is with the date of a shore song they were based on, be it a minstrel song, a music hall song, or a broadside. My favorite case in point is "Coal Black Rose", a halyard shanty collected by both Hugill & Bullen:

From SHANTIES OF THE SEVEN SEAS

COAL BLACK ROSE

Oh, me Rosie, coal black rose
Don't ye hear the banjo
Ping-a-pong-a-pong?
On, me Rosie, Coal Black Rose!

Oh, me Rosie, coal black Rose,
Strung up like a banjo,
Allu taut an' long,
On, me Rosie, Coal Black Rose!

Oh, me Rosie, coal black Rose,
The yard is now a-movin',
Hauley-hauley ho!
On, me Rosie, Coal Black Rose!

The Mate he comes around, boys,
Dinging an' a dang.
Hauley-hauley ho!
On, me Rosie, Coal Black Rose!

Give her one more pull, boys,
Rock an' roll 'er high.
Hauley-hauley ho!
On, me Rosie, Coal Black Rose!

And the minstrel song:

Coal Black Rose. Sold wholesale by L. Deming, No. 62, Hanover Street 2d door from Friend Street, Boston, [circa 1829]

COAL BLACK ROSE.

Don't you hear de banjo--tum, tum, tum;
Lubly Rosa, Sambo cum,
Don't you hear de banjo--tum, tum, tum;

Oh, Rose, de coal black Rose,
I wish I may be corch'd if I don't lub Rose,
Oh, Rose, de coal blacka Rose.

Dat you, Sambo--yes I cum,
Don't you hear de banjo--tum, tum, tum;
Dat you, Sambo--yes I cum,
Don't you hear de banjo--tum, tum, tum;

Oh, Rose, &c.....

The earliest date we document two different people singing this song, George Washington Dixon and Thomas Blakeley, is 1829. The shanty version certainly didn't make much use of the story verses of the minstrel song but the first verse is similar and it wouldn't have been long after 1829 before some sailor took the song to sea and made a shanty of it.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 04:21 PM

Charley, that could well have been used as an early shanty. The minstrel song would have been adapted, most likely but not certainly, while it was still very popular, i.e. the early '30s.

John, Gibb: three 'Catters on one thread who know how to spell Charles Peirce's name? Wow.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 06:35 PM

"Coal Black Rose" was printed by several broadside publishers
in England, in addition to the 1829 and 1835 printings in the US (most undated).
An extanded version with 14 verses plus chorus was printed by Demimg in the US (nd). At American Memory.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 09:11 PM

Q-

Other than the first verse the minstrel version doesn't really overlap with the shanty versions. That is not particularly surprising. It's just an example of how a popular song inspires a shanty. I do have all the verses and a cover image from the sheet music for a minstrel version of Coal Black Rose if anyone is really interested.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 07:14 AM

Lighter, thanks for the info on Hugill's source, Mr. Harding. I've wondered about his sources and I'm glad to have more information. Q, thanks for the history information on South Australia. I really didn't have that time frame in place at all. I didn't realize that the "Julia Ann" got there only 20 years after the first settlers! And that Pond was actually one of the first traders to haul stuff to and from there. And thanks for the link to "Old Mohee". Finding these links these days is difficult. And Charley, thanks for "Coal Black Rose". Along with Gibb's "Knock A Man Down", I'm now going in every direction. Good Stuff all the way around.

This morning I'm thinking about shanties that come from the African Slave Traders. Right off the bat I have to sort out the difference between shanties that might have been sung on board the Traders and a lot of songs sung by slaves in the Caribbean, such as "Shallow Brown", and in the Gulf Ports, as well as on the plantations - which are not the same as those coming from the minstrel sources, necessarily. While there seems to be quite a bit of material on slave songs going to sea, I can only think of one shanty that could be referring to the actual slave ships themselves, which is of course "Blow, Boys, Blow" from the "Guinea Slavers" (Hugill, pages 226-227/'61).

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:26 AM

John-

I think you're on firm ground with "Blow Boys Blow" (aka Congo River and related to at least three other named shanties in DEEP THE WATER SHALLOW THE SHORE); it's also a work song that the stevedores used on the docks in Australia as they pressed bales of wool.

And here are some more notes on shanties derived from minstrel or plantation field songs:

Coal Black Rose

Round the Corner Sally (Round the Corn Sally)

Doodle Let Me Go

Miss Lucy Long

Gimme de Banjo

Hilo, Boys, Hilo

And I can't resist a note on "Hilo" which in some shanties is taken as a reference to a favorite port in Western South America but was in fact transcribed by one curious observor much earlier in this plantation field song:

Oh, this is the day to roll and go,
Hill-up, boys, hilo;
Oh, this is the day to roll and go,
Hill-up, boys, hilo!

It's also of interest that such "nautical" phrases as "roll and go" and "rock and roll" first appeared in the plantation field songs.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 11:00 AM

I very much doubt that any shanties were created in the slave trade. Britain outlawed it in 1807 and the United States in 1808, long before we have any evidence of shantying. If blockade runners sang shanties after that, they would presumably be the same shanties as others were singing.

The only shanty verse I can think of that appears to relate to slaving is the one about "black sheep that have run the embargo." But no complete shanty is devoted to the slave trade, and I don't know how widely sung even the "black sheep" verse was.

One could go "down the Congo River" for many things after 1808.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 12:38 PM

Lighter, I think your conclusions about shanties created in or coming from the slave trade pretty well sum up what I've been able to (not) find on this subject. Even the references to the "Congo River " version of "Blow Boys Blow" are somewhat scarce. I did find this collection by Robert Frothingham, called SONGS OF THE SEA AND SAILORS' CHANTEYS: AN ANTHOLOGY, from 1924:

http://books.google.com/books?id=owcoe5PU6WcC&pg=PA244&dq=%22Blow+Boys+Blow%22&lr=&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22Blow%20Boys%20Blow%22&f=f

But he substitutes "Old shot and shell, she breaks the embargo," for the line about "black sheep". (p. 245). I also found this single interesting verse in IN GREAT WATERS: THE STORY OF THE PORTUGUESE FISHERMEN, by Josef Berger (originally printed in 1941), p. 43:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZC4diHs-RWMC&pg=PA43&dq=%22Blow+Boys+Blow%22&lr=&cd=149#v=onepage&q=%22Blow%20Boys%20Blow%22&f=

The author seems to be discussing the New Bedford whaling fleet and how some of them turned to the slave trade, and he presents this verse from "an old whaling chantey". Unfortunately, he gives neither a date nor a source for this.

There seems to have been a fluid situation among some of the whalers, who took up slaving, and then turned to piracy, all in the thirty or forty years before the Civil War. As with so many cases, one would like to know what they were singing as they passed through these various career changes!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:18 PM

Blow Boys Blow (Congo River) seems to be the only shanty that sometimes includes verses related to the slave trade, and most likely when that trade was illegal in the States.

It's interesting that such anachronistic verses actually survived to be written down.

C. Fox Smith in her introduction to the song in A BOOK OF SHANTIES, 1927, says:

This shanty is said to have referred originally to the slave trade, and some versions give a number of stanzas in which the Congo River is mentioned...

Frank Shay in AN AMERICAN SAILOR'S TREASURY, 1948, includes what he describes as a "maverick verse" collected in New England:

Oh, Captain Hall was a Boston slaver,
Blow, boys, blow!
He traded in n*****s and loved his Maker,
Blow, my bully boys, blow!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:57 PM

Charley, thanks for these additional references. The one from Shay is almost exactly the same as the one from Berger - Ball to Hall, and Yankee to Boston. Unless someone else comes up with some more material, I'm going to move my attention on to the whalers. There should be a little more to go on there. I realize that there is overlap amongst my categories.

Whaling went on for a long time, and it was certainly happening in the decades leading up to and following the voyages of the "Julia Ann". Captain Pond's First Mate on his third and fourth voyages was Peter Coffin. Pond recruited Coffin when he took the "Julia Ann" to Stillicome at the head of Puget Sound to load timber for Sydney for his Third voyage. At the time, Coffin was the captain of a Revenue Cutter and "an old whaler of fifteen years experience on the Pacific Ocean."

From Olmstead's INCIDENTS OF A WHALING VOYAGE , we've already listed "Drunken Sailor" and "Haul Her Away", which he dates in 1840. Early versions of "Highland Laddie" were definitely sung on board the whalers. We've just noted that some versions of "Blow Boys, Blow" were sung on board the whalers. I'm still looking with regard to the whalers. I know that "Ranzo" is one.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:25 PM

US Slave ships may have been illegal, but the ships continued to bring slaves to southern ports and to Brazil right up to the Civil War.
See Voyage to a Thousand Cares: Master's Mate Lawrence with the Africa Squadron, 1844-1846.
This is the story of a US sloop of war and its actions against American ships engaged in the slavery trade. One ship taken has 900 slaves, of whom 200 died after rescue as they were being taken to Liberia to be freed.

The US ship , from NY Yacht Club with Yankee owners, was the last to be fitted out for the slave trade. Fitted in Port Jefferson (stopped but freed by authorities) and at Charleston, SC, the ship sailed to Africa, took on 600 slaves and unloaded 465 survivors at Jekyll Island, Georgia, in 1858.
Northern Profits from Slavery

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:27 PM

The 1858 US ship was the Wanderer

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:40 PM

The lines about "Captain Ball," set to "Blow the Man Down," not "Blow, Boys, Blow," seems to have been written by the poet Stephen Vincent Benet for "John Brown's Body" (1928).

Benet has Captain Ball say they've "even made a song" about him. In Benet's version, "slaver" rhymes with "Saviour."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 10:34 PM

The copyright for Benet's book is 1927 and 1928. Shay's book that contains the "maverick verse" was published in 1948. But it is based on an earlier version from 1924. However, this earlier work by Shay has no mention of the "maverick verse" and, it doesn't have the last verse which contains the line about the "Congo River". See here:

http://www.archive.org/stream/ironmenwoodenshi00shayrich#page/10/mode/2up

Berger's book, mentioned above, was published in 1941. So where did this "maverick verse" come from? I suppose it's possible that Shay got it from Berger, but that doesn't seem likely to me. Is Benet's literary adaptation/creation the source? But Benet's verse is supposedly from "Blow the Man Down" and not "Blow Bullies Blow". Perhaps Benet knew of the old New England whaling verse but switched it to another song for his literary purposes. Perhaps the verse was used in both songs. I seems unlikely to me that Shay and Berger would have taken this from Benet and changed the song. Benet is the literary person here. I would think that it is more likely that he adapted it. In any case, this verse, which could be an important link to the slave traders is clouded.

And with regard to the "Congo River" verses, here is what I have found so far. C. F. Smith mentions that they existed but doesn't quote them. They show up in the Frothingham collection mentioned above (1924). One verse shows up in the Shay revision of 1948. Doeflinger (1951) has "Congo River" in one verse and mentions that "this shanty recalls the old Guinea trade." (pages 25-26). Colcord says that this song "started life as a slaving song" and gives the Congo River verse ( p. 47).   And we have Hugill's version from his 1961 book, which he says he got from "an Australian seaman, ex-"Manurewa" and "Silver Pine". (page 226). Do we have any other references to the "Congo River" version?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 08:31 AM

John-

I first heard the "slave trading version" on BLOW BOYS BLOW (of course!) by MacCall & Lloyd and their notes attribute the song to "the West African run, during the slave trade...the stanza about the packet-ship firing its gun may date from the Civil War, or may refer to an anti-slavery patrol." I always assumed that the "fires her gun, can't you hear the racket" was simply the slave ship announcing her departure as she makes her way down the Congo River.

In Lloyd's FOLK SONG IN ENGLAND, 1967. pp. 301-302, he points out that some sets of verses associated with "Blow Boys Blow" are also sung with Shallow Brown" as the chorus. Lloyd also mentions in this book, p. 308, that "Sally Brown" is one of the oldest shanties, being noted by Captain Marryat while he was aboard" a Western Ocean packet in 1837."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 11:45 AM

"seems unlikely to me that Shay and Berger would have taken this from Benet and changed the song. Benet is the literary person here. I would think that it is more likely that he adapted it."

Unlikely? Why? Simple and easy, especially if they assumed, as one might like to, that Benet had inside information. There's no basis for that assumption. What's more, the captain in Benet's poem really is named "Captain Ball."

Without a stated traditional source, there's no basis for accepting Benet's verse (or anyone else's) as traditional in any way.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 12:33 PM

Lighter, I really shouldn't try to write these notes when I'm tired at the end of the day. Especially when I lose the first two attempts! By the time I finally got that note posted, I'm not sure what I was trying to say or in fact what I did say. What I would say in the clear light of day is that whatever the unknown source of Shay's "maverick verse", etc., without that source, we don't have much to go on today. I'll let Benet, Berger and Shay stand on their own for what they are worth, but I'm not going to go any further with them.

Likewise with the "Congo River" verses. It's clear they were sung. Colcord doesn't say when or where she might have heard this verse herself or that she got it from her father, which would have put it either between 1890-99, or as far back as 1874. Doerflinger's version is from Richard Maitland, who went to sea in 1869 at the age of 12, but we don't know when Maitland heard or learned his version. So, I'm not going to pursue "Blow Boys Blow" as a strong candidate for a shanty from the slaver ships. However, a version may have originated in that context.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 03:10 PM

Up until the age of eighteen Joanna Colcord sailed with her father to many distant parts of the world:

1889-1890: Portland(ME)-Buenos Aires-Rosario-Boston
1890-1892: New York-Penang-Singapore-Shanghai-Hong Kong-New York
1894-1895: Portland(ME)-Buenos Aires-Rosario-Boston
1895-1897: New York-Port Elizabeth-Durban-Newcastle(NSW)-Mollendo-Astoria-Portland(OR)-Santa Rosalia-Victoria(BC)-Tacoma
1899-1900: New York-Hong Kong-New York
1900-1901: New York-Hong Kong-New York

According to her brother's introduction in SONGS OF AMERICAN SAILORMEN (1938), Joanna collected the vast majority of her shanties directly from the sailors on her father's ships, and some from her father and some from other retired sailors.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 04:46 PM

It seems pertinent to give Colcord's lines and words about slaving, and about "Blow, Boys, Blow" since they are discussed somewhat obliquely here.
"A group of famous old shanties had their origin in the packet-trade with Liverpool, which developed soon after the close of the war of 1812."
Her primary version, following that quote, begins "A Yankee ship came down the river" (name of river not specified). The captain was "Bully Hayes." Following the chantey, she writes of the chantey being taken over by "the 'packet-rats' of the Western Ocean, and celebrated the brutalities aboard the Atlantic liners" and "Doubtless all of the well-known masters and mates .... have heard themselves picturesquely described in this shanty; but it is Captain Hayes, who was lost in the Rainbow in 1848, whose name seems to have survived."

Following the chantey and musical score, she says, ""Blow, Boys, Blow" started life as a slaving song, the opening couplet being "A Yankee ship on the Congo River, ...."
She gives another couplet, "dating evidently from the Civil War ....
What do you think she's got for cargo? Old shot and shell, she breaks the embargo."

Obviously Colcord regarded the chanty as belonging to the period after the War of 1812, and up to and including the Civil War, and that it included versions concerning the continued trade in slaves despite US law.

Yankee slavers (mostly sailing from the southern ports but also from the northern ports but with other destinations stated rather than the African slave ports) continued to operate during the entire period because of the enormous profit in the slave trade, undeterred by the US law. Some were stopped by the US Navy (see previous post) but that didn't stop the trade.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 06:35 PM

Charley, thanks for providing that information on Colcord's time at sea. It helps make her work a lot more concrete for me. And, Q, thanks for giving the rest of what Colcord has to say about "Blow Boys Blow". Your interpretation of that makes sense to me.

I came across a verse in Hugill's "Alabama/John Cherokee" that intrigued me. The shanty tells the tale of "John Cherokee, The injun man from Miramashee" and how "They made him a slave down in Alabam". Apparently he kept running away, so "They shipped him aboard of a whaling ship", but "Agen an' agan he gave'em the slip." But, "they cotched him agen an' they chained him tight, Kept him in the dark without any light." (page 439/'61) .

The line that caught my attention was "They shipped him aboard of a whaling ship,". This reminded me of Hugill's (d) version of "Shallow Brown", which has the verse "Ship on board a whaler," and "Massa going to sell me... to a Yankee." (page 260/'61) I'm wondering if these verses from both "John Cherokee" and this version of "Shallow Brown" might not reflect the use of whaling ships as slavers in the period that Q discusses above. Sharp has basically the same version of "Shallow Brown" here:

http://www.archive.org/stream/englishfolkchant00shar#page/60/mode/2up

My assumption had been, with regard to the "Shallow Brown" shanty that the slave was being sold so that he could become a *seaman* on a whaling ship. To "ship on board a whaler" would seem to imply that. But who is the slave and who is being sold in this song, Shallow Brown or Juliana? What if Shallow Brown is the slave that is being sold to a Yankee and is being *shipped* north on a whaling ship? And thus he has been separated *by his own sale* from Juliana who must stay behind.

This makes sense when seen in the light of "John Cherokee". There, John was a slave and they "shipped" him aboard a whaling ship, and he kept running away until they put him in chains. We know that whalers were also used as slavers. So is it possible that these two songs actually reflect such a use?

And then there is the version of "Shallow Brown" given by Sharp that uses the verses from "Blow Boys Blow", (it does not mention the Congo River):

http://www.archive.org/stream/englishfolkchant00shar#page/34/mode/2up

I would assume that this is the song that Lloyd is referring to in Charley's not above.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 07:42 PM

John,
History seems to say that whaling ships were an escape and a safe haven for slaves and potential-slaves. The Yankee whaling ship owners have been noted as staunch abolitionists. And in the whaling trade, a number of African-Americans rose to prominence. Anything is possible though, I suppose; I am just noting the general trend as I understand it from such works as BLACK JACKS and BLACK HANDS, WHITE SAILS.

"John Cherokee", as I read the words, wasn't necessarily shipped on the whaling ship against his will. That was his *escape* (i.e. boarding masters shipped him, or he shipped himself), and how he gave them the slip. After that, they caught him again.

Gibb

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 08:02 PM

John-

Don't ask me where I read this but I seem to remember that some slave owners rented out their slaves to whaling captains to fill out their crews.

On the other hand there were Black whaling captains such as Capt. Boston who manned their ships with all Black crews. Bet they did some fine singing! Barry Finn and Neil Downey did a great job of resetting a song to music about Capt. Boston found in an old log book in their rendition of the "Schooner Industry" on their recording FATHOM THIS, © 2007.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 09:35 PM

Gibb, I'm in over my head on this one. I really don't have the historical background on slavery. My thinking was influenced by the Berger reference:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZC4diHs-RWMC&pg=PA43&dq=%22Blow+Boys+Blow%22&lr=&cd=149#v=onepage&q=%22Blow%20Boys%20Blow%22&f=

Scroll back up a page. There is too much that I don't know and the time frames keep slipping around on me a bit too much. I really appreciate all of the "course corrections" I've been getting here from everybody.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 09:37 PM

Epstein mentioned the practice of contracting out slaves to fill out crews on ships.

Yankee ship owners were abolitionists only in part- William Lloyd Garrison (1805-1879) spoke out against and printed attacks on the New England merchants who continued in the slave trade all during the first half of the 19th c. Maryland courts convicted and jailed Garrison for his attacks on one such trader; he had to leave Baltimore.

See Hugh Thomas, 1997, "The Slave Trade," Simon & Shuster.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 09:15 AM

Here's another footnote on slave trading.

The dubious honor of being the last American slave trader to be hanged in the United States goes to Captain Nathaniel Gordon in New York City on February 21, 1862: Click here for article!

For more information about this case read the recent book titled Hanging Captain Gordon: The Life and Trial of an American Slave Trader by Ron Soodalter.

I also agree that "John Cherokee" is not a good candidate for a slave trading shanty. It's a fine shanty, and a more curious mixture of Native-American/Black American/Canadian/Alabama sailor is not featured in any other shanty I'm familiar with.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 12:37 PM

Well, I'm not only in over my head on this thread, but I'm also being buried under a ton of snow down here in Virginia at the moment. I finally have figured out how to search Mudcat by using Google and I've turned up a bunch of stuff that I should have read before I jumped into the deep end here. There is a lot of good discussion that has already taken place on most of the things that I'm interested in at the moment. I want to post a few especially good links to other threads that I've come across.

These have to do with the issues of slavery, and of Black sailors. Here is one from Barry Finn from back in December of 2006 to the "Black Jacks, history and shanties" thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=97356#1914431

And here is another one from him with a shanty from way back in September of 1999:

thread.cfm?threadid=2864#116742

And one from November of '01:

thread.cfm?threadid=2864#600658

However, in going through these old threads, and I am sure there are more of them, I have not found a references to shanties that might have been sung on board the slave ships by the crews of those ships, other than an occasional reference "the Congo River".

Charley, thanks for that article on Captain Gordon and the "Erie". Here is a quote:

"It was in evidence (given by Lieutenant Henry D. Todd, U.S.N.) that the ship Erie was first discovered by the United States steamer Mohican, on the morning of the 8th day of August, 1860; that she was then about fifty miles outside of the River Congo, on the West Coast of Africa, standing to the northward, with all sail set; that she was flying the American flag, and that a gun from the Mohican brought her to."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 02:07 PM

John-

There's the long focs'le ballad "The Flying Cloud" which describes a slaving voyage and which is then transforms into piracy, in SONGS OF AMERICAN SAILORMEN, pp. 145-147.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 02:17 PM

With trading mostly outlawed, records of on-board activities on slavers of the 19th c. will be very rare.

My thanks also for the article on Gordon.

The reference to "Hard Times in Old Virginia" thread 2864, post by Barry Finn, is without reference, but it comes from Lydia Parrish, Slave Songs of the Georgia Sea Islands, 1969.
She found it on Sapelo, a 'shanty' combined with "Aye Lord, Buddin' of the Fig Tree," and "My Old Missus Promise Me." Doubtfully a work song.
No other information.
Barry Finn worked it up as a chantey.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 04:27 PM

Q-

Capt. Gordon was a native of the State of Maine and maybe this February 21 we should raise a glass to him, or not! Ordinarily slaving captains were not actually hung but Capt. Gordon's sentence happened to coincide with the beginning of the Civil War and President Lincoln wasn't in the mood to grant a pardon.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 10:50 AM

About twenty years after the "Julia Ann" was arriving at Sydney and then sailing on down to Melbourne and then to Newcastle for a load of coal and being hit by a "buster" in Sydney harbor, we have Frederick Pease Harlow's account of the "Akbar" arriving in Sydney and Melbourne and then going Newcastle for a load of coal. There must be a lot of similarities between the voyages of these two ships, even though they are twenty years apart. And Harlow gives us shanties!

The Akbar left Boston Harbor on June 8, 1876. Harlow says, " The "Akbar" sailed from Sydney June 8, 1876 to Newcastle, for a cargo of coal for Surabaya, Java." (p. 38). Then a bit later he says, "On the fourth day out [from Newcastle] we ran into a "southerly buster."   This caused enough damage that they were forced to head back to Sydney, arriving there on August 3. After repairs were made, the "Akbar" left for Java on November 14th.

From page 32, to page 103, Harlow gives a running account of the events from the arrival at Melbourne to the final departure from Sydney. In these pages, he gives about 45 different shanties and versions of shanties, most with tunes. And most of these he claims were being sung on the Akbar at the time these events took place. His account is a running narrative with the shanties given at the appropriate places when they were used.

Allowing for the fact that this is a reconstructed, literary narrative, but one based on the actual experience of a young man, and on notes and journals as well as memory, this is an amazing account. Almost all of the shanties that Harlow gives for this particular segment are familiar ones.

Now, on the one hand, twenty years is a long time and a lot changes in twenty years. Where were you and what were you doing on February 7, 1990? Look how much has happened since then! And yet there is definitely continuity as well. And our world is supposed to be on overdrive in terms of the speed of change. I'm sure that certain changes happened fast in the 1860s and '70s as well. But there was also continuity. For one thing, it is entirely possible and likely that some of the men Harlow sailed with in 1876 had been around in 1855.

And it seems likely that many of these shanties would have also been around in 1855. He doesn't give any of them as "new" or "recently made" songs. The verses would change - every time they were sung - but the basic songs remained familiar. The jobs basically remained the same. The "Akbar" was "about 1000 tons burden, carried three royal yards and was hemp rigged." (page 13). She was bigger than the "Julia Ann", but many of the tasks must have been similar.

I realize that one cannot make any final statements about 1853-1855 based on an account of something happening in 1875-1876. But I think you might get a fairly good sense of what it *could* have been like on the "Julia Ann" by reading Harlow's account. Harlow ends his book with a marvelous poem of his own which describes these same events, on pages 237-238, called "While I Am At The Wheel".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 11:05 AM

Harlow's book THE MAKING OF A SAILOR, OR SEA LIFE ABOARD A YANKEE SQUARE-RIGGER, which was supposed to originally be THE MAKING OF A SAILOR: CHANTEYING ON THE AKBAR, was published in 1928. The "chantey" part of the book was not finally published until 1962, after Harlow's death. It has been republished in 2004 by the Mystic Seaport Museum. I would suppose that Harlow was working on his memoirs and chanteys in the 1920s, and perhaps earlier. Pond wrote his memoirs in 1895. In both cases, Harlow and Pond were "recollecting" about forty years or so after the events which they recall.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 11:57 AM

The Harlow book is certainly a good read, and it's rare to have shanties printed in the context of when and where they were sung. And the book is readily available from Mystic Seaport for those who have such an interest.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: GUEST,warren fahey
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 10:36 PM

very interesting forum John - I do have some recent information gleaned from the digitized Australian newspapers. A bit flat out at the moment but I'll try and get it to you. Can I have a direct email. The information - including first-hand accounts of Australian shanties - will go up on my site but that queue is still rather large.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 07:48 AM

Thanks, Warren. It is good to have you here. Just hit PM after my name on one of my posts to email me. I really appreciate your work and have been enjoying your CD "Across the Seven Seas". Anything you could send me I would appreciate, and anything you feel like posting here would be great.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 08:07 AM

Welcome aboard, Warren!

Do consider becoming a regular member at Mudcat so we can communicate with you more directly, via PM for example. I'd also like to discuss with you some of the stevedore poems of E. J. Brady.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 10:50 AM

I've just about finished my look into what I would call "shanties sung on board the whalers". Once again, the information seems to be a bit scarce. I want to begin by distinguishing the following four categories:

1. Songs sung on board of the whaling ships
2. Shanties that mention whaling
3. Whaling songs used as shanties (maybe on the whalers?)
4. Other shanties that *may* have been sung on the whalers
5. Shanties that are actually documented as having been sung on the whalers

Since I am still focusing on the period leading up to and immediately following the voyages of the "Julia Ann" in 1853-1855, I'm primarily interested in whaling shanties that come before that period, and could have been current among the ships' crews in San Francisco and Sydney, as well as Melbourne, Newcastle, Tahiti, and Honolulu. Shanties from the twenty or thirty year period after the wreck of the "Julia Ann" may obviously reflect an earlier period and may have been sung in an earlier period.

I will deal with the first category of "songs sung on board the whaling ships" - other than shanties - first. One only has to look at Gale Huntington's book SONGS THE WHALEMEN SANG, to know that there was a *lot* of singing going on aboard the whalers. His collection not only comes mostly from the first half of the 19th century, but it is historically documented because it is taken from actual logs and journals from that time period. But as far as I can see, he doesn't list a single shanty and doesn't even mention shanty-singing on board the whalers! [Please correct me if I am wrong here.]

Apparently some of these songs that were popular among the whalemen were adapted for shanty use, at least on ships other than whalers, and may also have been used as such by the whalers themselve. I'll return to this category later. But, for now, "songs sung..." are not the same as shanties.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:51 PM

What are the shanties that mention whaling or have it as a central topic? Perhaps the oldest one of these is one quoted in THE QUID (London, 1832). Doerflinger says that this is the "work of an anonymous author who signs himself only as "a Steerage Passenger," it describes a typical voyage to the Orient in a ship of the Honorable East India Company...." (p. 93) Two (or three?) examples are mentioned. First of all is "Pull away now, my Nancy, O!", with no words given, and then there is this verse:

        "Oh her love is a sailor,
        His name is Jemmy Taylor,
        He's gone in a whaler
        To the Greenland sea!"

and

        "Oh! if I had her,
        Eh then if I had her,
        Oh! how I would love her
        Black although she be."

It's not clear from the context whether these are two different songs or two verses from the same song. Doerflinger gives another old Scottish song on page 307 of his book SONGS OF THE SAILOR AND LUMBERMAN called "Were You Ever In Dumbarton" which has some similar words to "oh! if I had her".

The most obvious example of a shanty that mentions whaling is probably "Reuben Ranzo". W.B. Whall, who went to sea in 1861, gives us a version of this shanty in his book SEA SONGS AND SHANTIES   He says this might have been derived from the name "Lorenzo", "for Yankee whalers took a large number of their men from the Azores, men of Portuguese descent...." (p. 60)

W.L. Alden, in his 1882 article in Harpers, gives a verse and the music for "Randso" (p. 264) which gives the verse about him shipping "on board a whaler".

http://books.google.com/books?id=SsoaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA284&dq=-+Randso&cd=2#v=onepage&q=-%20Randso&f=false

Doerflinger gives a version by Captain Richard Maitland and one by Captain Patrick Tayluer. Maitland went to sea at the age of 12 in 1869. Tayluer went to sea "about 1885" (p. 323). Maitland's version is the more commonly heard type and Tayluer's gives more "whaling" details but is perhaps later.

Another shanty that mentions whaling is "Tommy's Gone To Hilo". In his book AMERICAN SEA SONGS AND CHANTEYS, Frank Shay says that "Hilo" or Ilo, the southernmost port in Peru, was "something of a message center for whalers." (p. 56). One of the verses found in this shanty mentions that

        "Tommy's gone on a whalin'-ship,
        Oh, Tommy's gone on a damn long trip."   (Hugill, p. 262/'61)

There is an old whaling song known as "The Coast of Peru", which Huntington has from the "Bengal" dated 1832.

        "Our captain has told us
        And we hope it will come true
        That there's plenty of sperm whales
        On the coast of Peru."

He says this song "probably dates back to the last quarter of the eighteenth century when whaling in the Pacific was still new." (p. 4, SONGS THE WHALEMEN SANG)

Two other shanties, which have already been mentioned that refer to whaling are "Shallow Brown"

        "Ship on board a whaler." (Hugill, p. 260/'61)

and "John Cherokee",

        "They shipped him aboard of a whalin' ship." (Hugill, p. 439/'61)

Hugill's "Sister Susan"/"Shinbone Al" has:

        "A whaler's life is no life for me,
        I jumped her an' I left the sea,
        I ran right back to Shinbone Alley." (Hugill, p. 391/'61)

Are there other shanties that mention whaling? I know that some of the whaling songs like "Tis Advertised in Boston" were used as shanties, but I think that's a different category.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 01:16 PM

Another forebitter was the folk-processed versions of "Lowlands of Holland" which was transformed into "The Cold Coast of Greenland" as recorded by Bill and Gene Bonyun on Songs of Yankee Whaling, Heirloom Records, © 1960.

On that same recording is "The Bonnie Ship The Diamond" in which the Bonyuns note that this whaling ship was lost with twenty other ships in the ice off Melville Bay in 1830.

Also on the recording is the mournful ballad "Ship in Distress" which focuses on the cannibalism that took place in the lifeboats after a whale sank the whaling ship Essex.

"We'll Rant and We'll Roar" is the transformation by Yankee whalermen of the old English forebitter "Spanish Ladies."

"Reuben Ranzo", the Bonyuns notes, was a shanty and a favorite of whalermen, and in one version Ranzo does end up becoming "captain of a whaler."

"The Little Mohea" (aka "The Little Maui") was also noted by the Bonyuns as a great favorite aboard the whaling ships, and they suggest that the tune itself came from the traditional Tahitian song "E Tau Hoa Here" which is also on their recording as sung by Eilienne LaRoche.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 01:32 PM

Unless someone can produce a broadside or some other early text, I'm afraid that "The Cold Coast of Greenland" looks like another Lloyd creation.

Lloyd and MacColl recorded an LP called "There She Blows!" around 1957 made up entirely of whaling songs.

I can post the titles if you like.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 02:51 PM

Songs in Journals pre-1850; Gale Huntington, 1964 and reprints, "Songs the Whalemen Sang," Barre Pub., Dover and Mystic.
Songs found in logs.
Songs of the 1850s should be included.
This list is to remind me to look for other versions and variants of songs sung on ship c. 1850. Some may have been sung by the common seaman.
Of course there are the songs of Charles Dibdin and Charles Dibdin Junior, and many others, but many would have been forgotten by 1850.

The Coast of Peru, 1832
The Whalefish Song, 1849
The Greenland Whale, 1833
The Cruise of the Dove, 1845
Our Old Friend Coffin, 1846
The Wounded Whale, 1836
The Ship Euphrasia, 1849
A Wet Sheet and a Flowing Sea, 1844
Sling the Flowing Bowl, 1839
Loose Every Sail to the Breeze, 1795
Captain James, 1768, 1840, etc.
The Topsail Shivers in the Wind, 1876, 1835
The Sequel to Will Watch, 1847
Will Watch, ?c. 1820
The Sea, 1847
Saturday Night at Sea, 1843
I Was Once a Sailor, 1843
Hearts of Gold, 1832
The tempest, 1827
The Can of Grog, 1776
The Pirate of the Isles, 1847
The Demon of the Sea, 1847
The Rover of the Sea, 1849
Most Beautiful, 1837
The Sea Ran High, 1833
The Ocean Queen, 1845
Neptune, 1848
The Dauntless Sailor, 1808
The Sovereign of the Sea, 1776
A Life on the Ocean Wave, 1847 (But much earlier)
Covent Garden, 1828
Cupid's Garden, 1767
William Taylor, 1817
The Tarry Trousers, 1847
The Captain Calls All Hands, 1832
A Young Virgin, 1817
The Nobleman's Daughter, 1840
John Riley, 1847
The British Man-of-War, 1847
Pretty Sally, 1845
The Beggarman, 1845
Bright Phoebe, 1847
The Dark-eyed Sailor, 1847
Our Ship She Is Lying in Harbour, 1847
The Silvery Tide, 1847
The Ship Carpenter, 1767
The Lily of the West, 1844
Lovely Caroline, 1845
The Turkish Lady, 1768
The Times, 1804
The Sons of Liberty, 1790
The Lass of Mohee, 1847
The Heathen Dear, 1832
The Moon Is Brightly Beaming Love, 1847
Shearing Day, 1832

(More to come)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 04:19 PM

(Con't.)
Sarah Maria Cornell, 1845
Banks of the Schuylkill, 1840
Banks of Champlain, 1839
A New Liberty Song, 1776
A Song of the Nantucket Ladies, 1819
Springfield Mountain, 1845 (late parody)
Blessed Land of Love and Liberty, 1839
Sons of Worth, 1808
John Bull's Epistle, 1817
Of Yankee Manufacture, 1849 (Banks of Sacramento var.)
The Captain, 1833
The Confession, 1836
Virtuous America, 1844
Willie Gray, 1846

BRITISH ISLES ORIGIN

The Shepherds Dughter, 1795
A New Song, 1776
The Croppie Boy, 1827
Queen of the May, 1832
Song on Courtship, 1819
When First into this Country, 1847
O Logie O Buchan, 1827
Fair Betsy, 1847
I Had a Handsome Fortune, 1847
Bonaparte on St. Helena, 1827
The Bonny Bunch of Roses-O, 1847
Bonaparte, 1834
The Green Linnet, 1847
One Night Sad and Languid, 1847
A Farmer's Boy, 1845
The County of Tyrone. 1847
Rinordine, 1845
Behind the green Bush, 1768
Reily's Jailed, 1845
The Shepherd's Lament, 1767
Women Love the Kissing as Well as the Men, 1768
Fanny Blair, 1839

PARLOR SONGS
Silvery Moor, 1847
Willie's on the dark Blue Sea, 1849
The Banks of Banna, 1795
The Maid of Erin, 1847
Adieu My Native Land, 1847
Angel's Whisper, 1847
The Bride's Farewell, 1840
The Dying Soldier, 1853
Mary's Dream, 1847
The Ocean, 1840
Thou Hast Learned to Love Another, 1842
Jamie's on the Stormy Sea, 1849
Adieu to Erin, 1847
Blow High Blow Low, 1847
The Rose of Allendale, 1849 (Mary's Cot, 1848)
The Beacon Light, 1835

FRAGMENTS
A New Sea Song, 1817
Down Wapping, 1847
The Bible Story, 1769
Farewell My Dear Nancy, 1847
The Turkey Factor in Foreign Parts, 1769
A Sailor's Trade is a Roving Life, 1847 (Dig me a grave verse)
Hunter's Lane, 1849
Fare You Well, 1827 ?
Moll Brooks, 1849
Nelson, 1847
Come Let Us Be Jolly, 1813
Ye Parliaments of England, 1846
Old Horse, 1842

LAST BUT NOT LEAST (unclassified)
Wait For the Wagon, 1853
Prayer, 1834 (marine)
The Pilot 1833
The Lord Our Guide 1834
Row On, 1846
The Recruiting Sargeant, 1769
The Post Below, 1835
A Love Song in the Year 1769, 1769
Elegy on the Death of a Mad Dog, 1819 (Goldsmith?)
A Charming Fellow, 1776
The Wreath, 1847
As I Grow Old, 1808
The Sailor's Farewell, 1833
Terrible Polly, 1817
The Wide World of Waters, 1832
Song of Solomon's Temple, 1827
Poll and Sal, 1817
Billy O'Rourke, 1849
Now We Steer Our Course for Home, 1843

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 04:26 PM

Lighter-

Bill and Gene Bonyun were long-time family friends and I know they sang "The Cold Coast of Greenland" years before they recorded it. They certainly didn't get theirs lyrics from Lloyd and MacColl but I'll have to do some more research to find out who did collect the song. The Bonyuns did recognize that the song was folk-processed from "The Lowlands of Holland."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 04:53 PM

Q, Lighter and Charlie, thanks for all of your information. Q is certainly documenting my first category of "songs sung on board the whaling ship, which aren't shanties".   Lighter, thanks for the heads up on "The Cold Coast of Greenland". It had not shown up in any of my searches. Charlie, I'll be looking further at some of the songs you mention.

In my third category of whale related songs, I am looking at songs about and presumably sung by whalers that were probably used as shanties on both whaling and non-whaling ships. Harlow gives the two classics: "Tis Advertised in Boston" and "The Greenland Whale". He says that "Tis Advertised in Boston" (pp. 211-213) was used as a "windless" shanty. He gives a different chorus for this:

        "Cheer up my lively lads, in spite of stormy weather,
        Cheer up my lively lads, we'll all get drunk together."

Hugill, on page 221-222/'61, gives much the same version and says that it was used at the capstan and pumps. However, his version makes no reference to whaling! He then gives "the whaler version", which he says is unique to Colcord, "who obtained it from an old logbook in the New Bedford Public Library." (p. 233) Her version is found in SONGS OF AMERICAN SAILORMEN (Oak, 1964), pp. 187-188. How can the "whaler version" be given only by Colcord when Harlow obviously has one? Huntington also has this song (pp. 42-46), from the "Elizabeth Swift" journal of 1859, and he says this song was "often used as a chantey"(!). [I was wrong in what I said about him never mentioning shanties in my previous note.] Is this the same source as Colcord?

The other whaling song used as a shanty, according to Harlow, is "The Greenland Whale". Harlow says it was used as a capstan shanty (p. 225), and that it was sung by a Negro sailor named Richard Duncan. (p. 243) Colcord gives it as a "forecastle song" (pp.147-148) Huntington has a version (pp.11-13) from the "Bengal" in 1833. Neither Colcord nor Huntington say anything about it being used as a shanty. Hugill does not mention this song in his SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS. He does mention both of these songs in SHANTIES AND SAILORS SONGS, but not as shanties.

Hugill says (on page 581/'61) about the forebitter "We'll Go To Sea No More", which in some versions talks about a sailor being shanghied, by old "Shanghai Brown" himself and shipped aboard a whaler bound for the Arctic Seas, that "most of my old shipmates seem to think that it *was* used as a shanty at both capstan and pumps." No one else makes this claim, although the song shows up in other collections.

I have been unable to find any other historical examples of whaling songs being used as shanties. There are a number of contemporary examples, such as some of those mentioned by Charley above.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 05:10 PM

Charley, I look forward to anything you can find out about "The Cold Coast of Greenland" - or any othyer sea songs!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 07:04 AM

So far, I have mentioned the following as possible shanties that could have been sung on board the whalers:

"Ranzo"
"Tommy's Gone To Hilo"
"Sister Susan"
"Tis Advertised In Boston"
"The Greenland Whale"
"We'll Go To Sea No More" (?)

I don't have a clear sense about either "Shallow Brown" or "John Cherokee" . Just because they mention whaling doesn't mean they would have been used as whaling shanties. Of course this is true of "Ranzo", "Tommy's Gone", and "Sister Susan" as well. Sometimes "Ranzo" almost seems like a parody of the whalers, like the merchantmen making fun of them. And of course, "Tommy" sails all over the world.

It does seem like "Ranzo" has been traditionally associated with the whalers. There are two others that might have had some reference to whaling. First of all, there is "Row, Bullies, Row", or as it it more commonly known "The Liverpool Judies". Hugill says the "shanty might quite well have been a whalers' rowing song, explaining perhaps why some versions give 'Row, Julia, row', in the chorus." (p. 403/'61) He goes on to say that "Whalers must have had many rowing songs, but unfortunately none have survived." In his book SHANTIES AND SAILORS SONGS, Hugill does suggest that this song probably originated in the 1840s, but says, there is "not actual proof" that it was ever used as a rowing song by the whalers. (p. 158).

I have not come across a version of "The Liverpool Judies" that actually makes a reference to whaling. It seems to me that the connection here is slim. The connection for the next song seems even more remote, but I'll mention it because it's out there as a theory. This is Hugill's suggestion that "Wild Goose Nation" really is "whale grease nation". He discusses this in relation to the "Huckleberry Hunting" shanty. (p. 251/'61) This is a shanty that is about Ranzo Ray. Hugill says, "Far-fetched? Yes! But as acceptable, I feel, as any of the previous theories!" Perhaps.

Out of the songs in this category, I think that only three are on very firm grounds for being used on board the whalers and they are the two whaling songs "Tis Advertised in Boston", and "The Greenland Whale", and then also "Ranzo".   Two of these certainly go back to the earlier part of the 19th century, and "Ranzo" may as well.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 08:22 AM

The "Cold Coast of Greenland" is somewhat elusive in terms of written sources. One German website which lists the song on tracks from Thar She Blows provides a link to the lyrics of the "Cold Coast of Iceland"! Close geographically but an unrelated song. The version that Gene Bonyun leads, as transcribed from Songs of Yankee Whaling is two verses shorter than what appears in the DT here:

As sung by Gene Bonyun
Recorded on Songs of Yankee Whaling, American Heritage/Heirloom Records, © 1960
Traditional, related to the "Lowlands of Holland"

The Cold Coast of Greenland

Last night I was a-married and on my marriage bed
There came a bold sea captain and to my love he said,
"Arise, arise, you brisk bonny lad and come along with me,
To the cold, cold coast of Greenland and the sperm whale fishery."

I held my love all in my arms, a-thinking he might stay
Till the cruel captain called his men and forced my love away.
Saying "It's many a bright and bold young man must sail this night with me
To the cold, cold coast of Greenland and the sperm whale fishery."

My love he went on shipboard and a lofty ship was she,
With a score of bold young whalermen to bare him company,
But the mainmast and the rigging they lie buried in the sea
Off the cold, cold coast of Greenland in the sperm whale fishery.

Said my father to me, "Daughter, what makes you so lament?
There's many a lad in our town can give your heart content."
"There is no lad in all our town, no lord nor duke for me,
Can ease my mind now the stormy brine has twined my love from me."

Here's a longer version:

The Cold Coast of Greenland

1. Last night I was a-married and on my marriage bed
    There came a bold sea captain and he stood at my bed's head
    Saying, "Arise, arise, you bonny brisk lad and come along with me,
    To the cold, cold coast of Greenland and the sperm whale fishery."

2. She held her love all in her arms, a-thinking he might stay
    Till the cruel captain came again - he was forced to go away.
    "It's many a bright and bold young man must sail this night with me
    To the cold, cold coast of Greenland and the sperm whale fishery."

3. Her love he went on shipboard and a lofty ship was she,
    With a score of bold young whalermen to bear him company,
    But the mainmast and the rigging they lie buried in the sea
    Off the cold, cold coast of Greenland in the sperm whale fishery.

4. Said the father to the daughter, "What makes you so lament?
    There's many a lad in our town can give your heart content."
    "There is no lad in our town, no lord nor duke," said she,
    Can ease my mind now the stormy wind has twined my love from me."

5. "No shoe nor stocking I'll put on nor comb go in my hair,
    Nor broad daylight nor candlelight shall in my room appear
    Nor shall I wed with any young man until the day I die,
    Now the cold, cold coast of Greenland has parted my love and I."

6. Oh, Greenland is a dreadful place, a place that's never green,
    It's a wild inhabitation for a lover to be in,
    Where the icebergs grow and the whales do blow and the sunset's never seen,
    And the cold, cold coast of Greenland lies between my love and me."

From the singing of Ewan MacColl on Thar She Blows!, © 1956
Riverside RLP 12-635
Child #92 aka "Lowlands of Holland"
JB
apr97

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 08:52 AM

And what of the shanties that we know were used on board of the whalers?    There were a few which have some documentation. First of all there is the shanty "Hieland Laddie". Hugill says that it "is based on an old Scottish march and dance tune and was very popular both as a walkaway and a capstan song in the old Dundee whalers and according to Davis & Tozer it was also used at halyards, withoout the final grand chorus." (p. 143/'61) Hugill's (a) version has heavy Scottish overtones and is all about whaling. He says that he learned it from Bosun Chenoworth, who had "sailed for years in the hard-bitten whaling ships of Dundee." (p. 144) Here is a Mudcat thread on this shanty:

thread.cfm?threadid=54643#2814365

And here is a link back to my previous discussion of this shanty above:

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=188#2826380

We have already discussed the two shanties given by Olmstead in his book INCIDENTS OF A WHALING VOYAGE, which are a version of "Drunken Sailor" and a version of "Haul Her Away", or perhaps "Cheerily Men". Olmstead also mentions another shanty used for pulling the whale's teethto the tune of "O! hurrah my hearties O!":

http://books.google.com/books?id=oJUFAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA182&dq=%22O!+hurrah+my+hearties,+O!%22&lr=&cd=2#v=onepage&q=%22O!%20hurrah%20

Colcord, in her book SONGS OF THE AMERICAN SAILORMEN, mentions that the whalemen had their own verse for the shanty "Goodbye, Fare You Well!", which went:

        "The *whales* we are leaving, we leave with regret!" (p. 110)

She also gives us another piece of important documentation. In her introduction to the shanty "Santy Anna", she says,

        "The last whaler to return to New Bedford hauled into dock to the tune of this old shanty; and it was told me by one who was present tht the grim old seafarers who gathered on the pierhead to watch, shed tears unashamed as the well-remembered notes rang out across the harbor for the last time." (p. 80)

So, I think we can add these two shanties to our list: "Goodbye, Fare You Well!" and "Santy Anna".

In his introductory note to Frank T. Bullen's SONGS OF SEA LABOR (1914), none other than Arthur Conan Doyle makes the following interesting comment:

        "You have done real good national work in helping to preserve these fine old Chanties. Like yourself I have heard them many a time when I have been bending to the rhythm as we hauled up the heavy whaling boats to their davits."

Was Doyle referring to personal experience of being at sea on board a whaler? Or were "whaling boats" something found on other kinds of ships?

There is one other source that I have looked at and I'm not quite sure how to fit it into this discussion. That is the essay by Roger Abrahams in his book DEEP THE WATER, SHALLOW THE SHORE (1974), entitled "Solid Fas" Our Captain Cry Out: Blackfishing at Barouallie". In this essay Abrahams gives about twenty-five shanties used by the Barouallie whalers. Some of them are recognizable as being descendants of more commonly know traditional shanties, such as "All Through the Rain and Squally Weather"/ "Blow Boys Blow", "Oh, My Rolling River ("Solid Fas")/ "Shenandoah", "Those Girls from Bermuda"/ "Goodbye, Fare You Well", "Royo Groun'"/ "Rio Grande", "Little Boy Lonzo"/ "Ranzo", "Johnny Come Down to Hilo", "Blow the Man Down", "We Are Bound DownSouth Alibama" / "South Australia", "Rosebank Whores"/ "Sally Brown", and "Time for Man Go Home"/ "Time for Us to Leave Her".

These songs are obviously "whaling songs" and pretty obviously shanties. And they come from a region with strong historical ties to whaling. And they are very recently recorded. They would add substantially to the list of "whaling shanties", although they are not recently used on the deep water ships. Are they the living remnant of a tradition of old whaling shanties?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 09:11 AM

John-

Black sailors from the West Indies often made up a sizable portion of any whale ship's crew. And I think you're on firm ground with the suggestion that some of the blackfish whaling shanties of Barouallie are obvious relics of whaling shanties from deep-water whaling ships.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 11:14 AM

This about sums up my efforts to look at "whaling shanties" as an early category of shanty that might have been sung on board the "Julia Ann" in 1853-1855. We've already suggested that "Drunken Sailor" and "Highland Laddie" and "Nancy Fanana"/"Haul Her Away" ("Cheerily") could have been sung on the "Julia Ann" from earlier discussions. I would now add "Tis Advertised in Boston" and "The Greenland Whale". And I'm going to add "Ranzo".

Out in Australia, we find "Rueben Ranzo", "Drunken Sailor", and "Donkey Riding" (a version of "Highland Laddie") in the Carey Collection (from Warren Fahey's AUSTRALIAN FOLKLORE UNIT webpage), collected from George Pattison. We also find "Rueben Ranzo" and "Goodbye Fare You Well" from Malcolm Forbes in the same collection.

http://warrenfahey.com/ccarey-s1.htm

Before I add either "Tommy's Gone to Hilo" or "Sister Susan", I want to do some more research on them in other contexts. And the same is true of "Santy Anna" and "Goodbye, Fare You Well". Colcord's reference with regard to "Santy Anna" is a late reference, and her reference to "Goodbye" is undated.

Of these, we find versions of "Ranzo", and "Goodbye, Fare You Well" from the Barouallie whalers. We also find versions of "Blow Boys Blow", "Rio Grande", "South Australia", "Sally Brown", and "Time for Us to Leave Her" being used as whaling shanties by the Barouallie whalers, which are all songs we have discussed above as possible candidates for the "Julia Ann". I'm not exactly sure how to get from the Baroullie whalers back to the early 1850s though.

Before I leave the subject of the whalers, I wanted to call attention to this link about Cape Verde whalemen:

http://www.umassd.edu/specialprograms/caboverde/whale.html

And to highly recommend this CD by my friend, Danny Spooner, called "The Great Leviathan - Songs of the Whaling Industry". There are also some whaling songs on his earlier CD "Launch Out On The Deep" (scroll down):

http://www.dannyspooner.com/discography.htm#CD

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 03:58 PM

I have two questions on this snowy afternoon in the Blue Ridge. First of all does anybody know of any references to shanties that were sung on pirate ships, and here I am making a distinction between "songs about pirates, such as "Captain Kidd" and working shanties? It is my understanding that most of the historical pirates were gone by the 1830s. Did they even use shanties at all? I'm thinking mainly about the time period between the end of the wars and end of the pirates from 1812 or 1815 to 1835. I am aware that Hugill says that "High Barbaree" was used as a capstan shanty. (p. 419-420/'61). However, he does not claim that it was actually sung on board pirate vessels. It is an old song, perhaps coming from the 1700s or earlier. Here is some Mudcat discussion:

thread.cfm?threadid=89254#1683172

My second question, is on a different subject. W.B. Whall says in the "Introduction" to his book SEA SONGS AND SHANTIES (first published in 1910):

   "Going to sea then, in 1861, in the old passenger-carrying East Indiamen, these Sailor Songs and Shanties struck me as worthy of preservation. During my eleven years in those ships, I took down the words and music of these songs as they were actually sulng by sailors, so that what I present here may be relied upon as the real thing." (p. xi)

The East India Company was finally dissolved on January 1, 1874, so Whall was a part of this in the very last days of its existence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company

This would mean that Whall's collection of shanties constitutes a relatively complete record of what was being sung on the East India Company ships in the '60s and early '70s, and what may have been sung on them earlier in the 19th century. Presumably he was sailing with much older men whose memory would go back at least twenty or thirty years.   If we are looking for "songs sung on the East India merchant ships", is this the gold mine?

Remember, I am looking for sea shanties that would have, could have, been around in the early 1850s that *could* have been sung on the "Julia Ann" on her voyages in 1853-1855 from San Francisco to Sydney. I have been looking at different categories of the history of sailing in the 19th century. So far I have considered the slave ships and the whalers. Now I'm interested in the 19th century pirates and the East India traders.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 06:01 PM

John-

With regard to pirate "shanties" I don't think you'll find a single one unique to pirates. However, some of the forebitters or ballads certainly were focused on the exploits or demise of certain pirates but generally were composed by non-pirates.

My favorite reference is Stuart Frank's THE BOOK OF PIRATE SONGS, © 1998.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 06:19 PM

John, those of Whall's shanties that he learned in 1861-62 certainly *might* have been in existence less than a decade earlier.

Beyond that, we can't say.

Charley, thanks for the Bonyuns' version of "Greenland." If they didn't record it till 1960, it seems most likely that it came, directly or indirectly, from MacColl & Lloyd.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 06:30 PM

Lighter-

But the Bonyuns were singing that version of the "Cold Coast of Greenland" in the early 1950's at our family music parties. However, I'm still puzzling over where they learned it, not having come across any earlier literary reference. I don't believe they would have had a copy of THAR SHE BLOWS, 1956, but I suppose it possible that one of their friends had a copy. There's no sign of this song in Colcord, C. Fox Smith, Hugill, Doerflinger, Palmer, Huntington, Whall, Bullen, Warners, or Lloyd. Anyone else have any better luck?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 05:08 PM

The Blackball Line was begun in 1816 and lasted until 1878. Here is some interesting background on the era of the Western Ocean Packets.

http://www.themonro.com/packetshipsfromt.html

While there is no written documentation from that period that I have been able to find with regard to the shanties sung on board the packet ships, there does seem to be general agreement about the songs that come from that era. Here is the list that I have so far. I am taking them from Hugill's SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS (1961), and will include Gibb Sahib's interpretation of some of them.

"Haul The Bowline" (pp. 353-357)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwMBUX5kPrw&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=171

"Blow Boys, Blow" (pp. 224-230), which we've already discussed at length. See here and following:

thread.cfm?threadid=126347#2828023

"We're All Bound To Go" (pp. 303-307)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHNizFUQTUM&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=145

"The Liverpool Judies" (pp. 401-402)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb7U-f3N3IQ&feature=PlayList&p=9182743BD3FD6DA2&index=5

"Paddy Lay Back" (pp.. 321-325)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo0KJq1Xn5U&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=155

"Paddy Doyle's Boots" (pp. 330-334)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCDcZJs6gz8&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=157

"Paddy West" (pp.334-336)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OInKfWlt29A&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=160

"Banks Of Newfoundland" (pp. 412-413)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5bQHsjn-Fs&feature=PlayList&p=9182743BD3FD6DA2&index=11

"Liverpool Packet" (pp. 466-469)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqftVU3xZHI&feature=PlayList&p=9182743BD3FD6DA2&index=37

"Leave Her, Johnny, Leave Her" (pp. 293-298)
        Especially "Across The Western Ocean"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Eko6TOiHY&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=140

"Blow The Man Down" (pp. 199-214), especially Hugill's (b) version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2Gt66yu9Qw&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=97

"Blackball Line" (pp. 130-133)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxy3L6ZU3cM&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=56

"Time For Us To Go" (pp. 509-510)
        Especially "A Hundred Years Ago"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaE6ZUM1wWE&feature=PlayList&p=9182743BD3FD6DA2&index=55

"Can't You Dance The Polka" (pp. 369-372)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRM_fOOg9WQ&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=184

"Paddy Works On The Railway" (pp. 103-104)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WW7ktFM9gw&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=161

I have focused first of all on the Western Ocean Packet songs that don't show any direct Black influence or influence from the "cotton hoosiers" of the Southern ports. The exception might me "Blow The Man Down", which may be based on a song of Black origin known as "Knock A Man Down" (p. 199-200).

And I have focused on songs that were current during the early Irish emigrations brought on by the Potato Famine of 1845-1852. One of my own great grandfathers, George Edward Semple, from Clonmel, County Tipperary, sailed as a "ship's doctor" in 1849, on a crossing that took six weeks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

I am assuming that all of these songs, in one version or another, would have been current in New York and other eastern ports in the late 1840's and would have found their way to California during the Gold Rush of 1849, and thus would have been available in San Francisco to sail on board the "Julia Ann" on her voyages to Sydney in 1853-1855.

Can anyone think of a reason why any of these shanties would not have been current then in that location? And are there some which are more likely than others? And, have I missed some that might fit in this rather loose category?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 06:54 PM

John-

And your great grandfather failed to note what shanties were being sung, and their lyrics? What on earth was he doing?;~)

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 09:47 PM

"Can anyone think of a reason why any of these shanties would not have been current then in that location?"

Unfortunately I can: there is no documentation that they were. And   the researcher always bears the responisibility of establishing the reliability of the evidence before he goes on to discuss it or apply it.

As far as I can tell (and you may know more avout it than I do), any statement about particular shanties (and perhaps even shantying in general) in the period before Dana and "Steerage Passenger" is based entirely on inference, supposition, informed guesses, etc.

While it seems extremely likely, for reasons we know, that many or most of the well-known "revival" shanties - at least their tunes, choruses, and some of the familiar verses - were sung in the 1850s and earlier, we can't apply that very general statement to any particular shanties without particular documentation.

Words that might come in handy in a discussion of early shantying include "possibly," "plausibly," "conceivably," "presumably,"
"likely," and "uncertain," "unclear," and "maybe."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 10:02 PM

You're right Lighter. And I had been paying particular attention to that language, too. Here is how my sentences should have read:

"songs that don't *seem to* show any direct Black influence or influence from the "cotton hoosiers"

"I have focused on songs that *may have been* current during the early Irish emigrations brought on by the Potato Famine of 1845-1852."

"I am assuming that all of these songs, in one version or another, *could* have been current in New York and other eastern ports in the late 1840's and *could* have found their way to California during the Gold Rush of 1849, and thus *could* have been available in San Francisco to sail on board the "Julia Ann" on her voyages to Sydney in 1853-1855."

"Can anyone think of a reason why any of these shanties *could* not have been current then in that location?"

Not "would", but "could". And a lot of inference. At this point I will settle for "extremely likely".

Charley, it would seem that the shanty-singing was not all that remarkable at the time. Lighter is right. We just don't have documentation from anybody from that period about these songs, including my great grandfather.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 09:14 AM

And of course, from my post above, I said:

"While there is no written documentation from that period that I have been able to find with regard to the shanties sung on board the packet ships, there does seem to be general agreement about the songs that come from that era."

And I should have said:

"there does seem to be general agreement about the songs that *might have* come from that era."

I want to refer back to some excellent comments by Lighter earlier in this thread:

thread.cfm?
threadid=126347&messages=1#2827247

In another note posted above by Gibb Sahib, he says:

" If you look at all the discussions that have gone on (e.g. on Mudcat) about the advent of this or that chantey, you'll find that most are not *positively* documented during the period under discussion -- that is, if your measure of positive documentation demands their direct mention in a piece of writing. However, based on their language, style, melody characteristics, and other historical info, they can be reasonably dated. I am saying this even as a natural skeptic. So I do appreciate the line of thinking that "these chanteys may not really be as old as we tend to think," but lack of references until later does not account for why they would have characteristics of earlier eras of song.

So if, for example, the goal is to produce some proof in the form of a literary reference that "Clear the Track Let the Bulgine Run" was being sung at a date before 1853, then you won't have it. There is no smoking gun. But there are many other pieces of evidence you could present to the jury to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was around by the 1840s. Is this the sort of thing you are asking, i.e. about alternative ways to "prove" besides this straight "literary mention" sort of thing? " (01 Feb 10 - 11:42 AM)

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=1#2827309

While I am not really trying to "prove" anything, I am trying to take very seriously what both Lighter and Gibb are saying here. I want to recognize the clear limits placed upon us by historical documentation. And I also want to recognize the limits of "historical documentation" in the process of reconstructing what *could* have been the case within some reasonable parameters. I would prefer to think that I have one foot firmly planted in each place rather than that I am straddling the fence here. Sometimes I lean heavier on one foot than on the other. I agree with Lighter that one has to be careful about making later historical arguments based upon earlier "coulds". I hope that this is relatively clear.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 10:47 AM

John-

Here's more homework for you, a bibliography of sailing voyages during the Gold Rush Days to California, I ran across while researching Capt. John D. Whidden:

Shultz, Charles R., Forty-niners Round the Horn: Bibliography
Secondary Sources

Adams, Elizabeth. "A Voyage to California," More Books: Bulletin of the Boston Public Library (January 1941): 3-10. Tells of the acquisition by the Library of the journal of Charles H. Williams of his voyage from New York to San Francisco in the ship Pacific and briefly summarizes the turbulent voyage. Mentions a few other California related items in the Library.

Ament, William S. "By Sea to El Dorado," in Oxcart to Airplane ed. By John Russell McCarthy, vol. VI, Chapter 14, pp. 309-328. Los Angeles: Powell Publishing Company. Brief account of voyages around Cape Horn to California in 1849 and after based upon published accounts and manuscripts in the Huntington Library.

Bates, Morgan. The Gold Rush: Voyage of the Ship Loo Choo Around the Horn in 1849. ed. with an introduction by John B. Goodman, III. Mt. Pleasant, Michigan: Cumming Press, 1977. Reproductions of letters of Morgan Bates, Thomas Blackwood, and Sylvester W. Higgins.

Baur, John E. "The Health Factor in the Gold Rush Era," Pacific Historical Review 18 (January 1949):97-108. Reprinted in John Walton Caugly Rushing for Gold Berkeley: University of California Press, 1849. (American Historical Association, Pacific Coast Branch, Special Publication No. 1).

Browne, J. Ross. Crusoe's Island: A Ramble in the Footsetps of Alexander Selkirk. With Sketches of Adventure in California and Washoe. New York: Harper & Brothers, 1864. The first 165 pages contain an account of the conflict between Captain Hall J. Tibbits and the first class passengers in the ship Pacific which Browne calls the Anteus, and the removal of Captain Tibbits by U. S. Consul at Rio de Janeiro and a detailed account of the visit to Juan Fernandez island by eleven passengers in the Pacific.

Browne, John Ross. J. Ross Browne, His Letters, Journals and Wriings, ed. by Lina Fergusson Browne. Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 1969. Contains writings by Browne between 1842 and 1875 including several long letters to his wife while he was a passenger on board the ship Pacific bound from New York, New York to San Francisco in 1849.

California: Its Past History; Its Present Position: Its Future prospects: Containing A History of the Country from Its Colonization by the Spaniards to the Present Time: A Sketch of the Geogrpahical and Physical Features and a Minute and Authentic Account of the Discovery of the Gold Region, and the Subsequent Important Proceedings Including a History of the Rise, Progress and Present Condition of the Mormon Settlements with An Appendix Containing the Official Reports Made to the Government of the United States. London: Printed for the Proprietors, 1850. There are two versions of this volume. The one cited here contains two illustrations of views of shipboard life in 1849. One located opposite page 80 is titled "Tracing the Ships Progress," and one located opposite page 136 is titled "Mid-Day Emigrants on Deck." This version also has a page preceding the title page bearing the inscription "The Emigrants Guide to the Golden Land, Shewing Him When to Go, Where to Go and How to Go." The other version lacks the two illustration and the 1850 date and has the inscription "California, Its Past History, Its Present Position, Its Future Prospects" on a page preceding the title page.

Celebration of the Seventy-Third Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence of the United States, on board the Barque "Hannah Sprague." at Sea, July 4th, 1849. South Latitude 18o 28'.--Longitude 38o 10'. New York: Jennings & Co., Printers, 1849. Contains the order of the events of the day as well as the text of the patriotic address which Alfred Wheeler delivered on board the Hannah Sprague bound from New York, New York to San Francisco, California. Among the passengers was at least one company of men known as the New York Commercial and Mining company.

Davis, George. Recollections of a Sea Wanderer's Life: Autobiography of an old-time seaman who has sailed in almost every capacity before and abaft the mast, nearly every quarter of the globe, and under the flags of four of the principal maritime nations. New York: A. H. Kellogg, 1887. Pages 304-326 contain a brief account of the voyage from New York, New York to San Francisco, California of the ship Matilda in 1849 under the command of Captain Land.

Davis, Raymond Cazallia. Reminiscences of a Voyage around the World. Ann Arbor, Michigan: D. D. Chase's Steam Printing House, 1869. Pages 15-176 contain an account of his voyage, September 8, 1849-February 28, 1850, from Bath, Maine to San Francisco, California in the ship Hampton. These reminiscences were first published in the "Youths Department of the Peninsular Courier and Family Visitant", a weekly paper the publisher of the book had been publishing for about five years.

Delgado, James P. To California by Sea. Columbia: University of South Carolina, 1990

Donovan, Lynn Bonfield, "Day-by Day Records: Diaries from the CHS Library," California Historical Quarterly 54 (Winter 1975): 359-372 and 56 (Spring 1977): 72-81. An annotated bibliography of California Gold Rush journals in the collection of the California Historical Society in San Francisco.

Dutka, Barry L. "New York Discovers Gold! In California," California History 63 ( Fall 1984):313-319 and 341. Based largely upon New York newspaper stories of 1848-1849. Eagleston, John H. "Account of an Early California Voyage," Essex Historical Collections. 12 (No. 2, 1874): 124-131.

Eagleston, John H. "Account of an Early California Voyage." Essex Historical Collections 12: 2 (1874): 124-31. An account of the voyage of the brig Mary & Ellen.

Evans, George W. B. "San Francisco in 1850," Society of California Pioneers Quarterly (December 1925):191-214.

Farwell, Willard B. "Cape Horn and Cooperative Mining in '49," Century Magazine 42 (July 1891): 579-594. An account of the voyage from Boston, Massachusetts to San Francisco, California in the ship Edward Everett in 1849. There were 150 members of the Boston and California Mining and Trading Company on board. Contains several good illustrations of shipboard life during such a voyage.

Flagg, Josiah Foster. "A Philadelphia Forty-Niner, Excerpts from His Diary," Pennsylvania Magazine of History and Biography 70 (October 1946):390-422.

Frothingham, N. L. Gold: A Sermon Preached to the First Church, on Sunday, Dec. 17, 1848. Boston: Printed by John Wilson, 1849.

Goodman, John B., III. The Key to the Goodman Encyclopedia of the California Gold Rush Fleet ed. by Daniel Woodward, with an introduction by Neal Harlow. Los Angeles: The Zamorano Club, 1992. Contains an index to the 762 vessels included in Goodman's manuscript encyclopedia now at the Huntington Library in San Moreno, California. Includes name of vessel, rig or type, name of captain, dates of sailing and arrival, port of departure, places stopped during the voyage, when and where the vessel was built, disposition, and trade after arrival in San Francisco.

------ The Schooner Civilian and the Cochituate Mining and Trading Company. Los Angeles: Plantin Press, 1964. Brief account of the voyage, November 12, 1849-April 4, 1850, from Boston, Massachusetts to San Francisco, California under the command of Captain Thomas Dodge. Appears to be based in part upon the letters sent home by Josiah Hayward, Jr.

------ "The 1849 California Gold Rush Fleet: The Schooner/Steamer El Dorado." Southern California Quarterly 68 (Spring, 1986):67-76. Account of the voyage from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania to San Francisco, California May 7-November 23, 1849, under the command of Captain Joseph C. Barnard. Includes drawings of the vessel as a schooner as she sailed from Philadelphia and as a sidewheel steamer to which she was converted soon after her arrival in San Francisco. Passengers included members of the El Dorado Association.

------ "The 1849 California Gold Rush Fleet: The Packet Robert Bowne." Southern California Quarterly 67 (Winter 1985): 447-463. Account of the voyage from New York, New York to San Francisco, California February 6-August 28, 1849, under the command of Captain F. G. Cameron. Has a track chart for the voyage and a drawing of the ship entering San Francisco Bay, both by the author. Has lists of officers and crew and of passengers.

------ "The 1849 California Gold Rush Fleet: The ship Harriet Rockwell" Southern California Quarterly 67 (Fall 1985):311-320. Account of the voyage from Boston, Massachusetts to San Francisco, California September 8, 1849-February 24, 1850, under the command of Captain Shubal Hawes. Has track chart of the voyage and drawing of the vessel entering San Francisco Bay, both by the author. Includes list of passengers.

------ "The 1849 California Gold Rush Fleet: The Abby Baker," Southern California Quarterly, 67 (Summer 1985):199-206. Account of the voyage from Baltimore, Maryland to San Francisco, California November 7, 1849-July 24, 1850, in the bark under the command of Captain Timothy Pratt until his death at sea on July 7, 1850, when he was succeeded by his son Timothy Augustus Pratt.

------ "The 1849 California Gold Rush Fleet: The Magnolia," Southern California Quarterly 67 (Spring 1985):72-87. Account of the voyage from New Bedford, Massachusetts to San Francisco, California; February 3-August 28, 1849, in the ship under the command of Captain Benjamin Simmons. Has a track chard of the ship and a drawing of her nearing Cape Horn, both by the author.

Granite State Trading, Mining & Agricultural Company. No place: No publisher, [1849]. It is possible that the members of this company sailed to San Francisco in the ship Sweden.

Harris, J. Morrison. A Paper upon California; Read Before the Maryland Historical Society by J. Morrison Harris, Corresponding Secretary, March, 1849. Baltimore: Printed for the Society by John D. Toy, 1849

Hazelton, John Adams. The Hazelton Letters: A Contribution to Western Americana ed. By Mary Geneva Bloom. Stockton, California: College of the Pacific, 1958. Reprinted from The Pacific Historian 1 (Nos. 2, 3 and 4). Contains six letters Hazelton wrote to members of his family in New Hampshire. The first two deal with his voyage from Boston, Massachusetts to San Francisco, California in the brig Randolph.

Hotchkiss, Charles F. "California in 1849," The Magazine of History, with Notes and Queries extra No. 191, 48 (No. 23): 133-152. Much of the article deals with an isthmian voyage to California, but it has some interesting observations on San Francisco and California in 1849.

Howe, Octavius Thorndike. Argonauts of '49: History and Adventures of the Emigrant Companies from Massachusetts 1849-1850 Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1923.

Hunt, Rockwell D., "Pioneer Protestant Preachers in Early California," Pacific Historical Review 19 (January 1949): 84-96.

Ingalls, John. "California Letters of the Gold Rush Period: The Correspondence of John Ingalls, 1849-1851," Proceedings of the American Antiquarian Society (1937):145-182. First few letters contain information on his voyage from New York, New York to San Francisco, California in the ship Pacific.

Johnson, Samuel Roosevelt. California; A Sermon, Preached in St. John's Church, Brooklyn, N. Y., on Sunday, February 11, 1849, by Samuel Roosevelt Johnson, D. D., Rector New York: Stanford and Swords, 1849. Preached on the occasion of the departure of the bark St. Mary for California.

Kihn, Phyllis. "Connecticut and the California Gold Rush: The Connecticut Mining and Trading Company," Connecticut Historical Society Bulletin 28 (1963): 1-13. The Company owned and sailed in the schooner General Morgan. Based in part upon the journal, February 22-August 5, 1849, of Albert Lyman during the voyage from New York, New York to San Francisco, California.

Kull, Irving Stoddard. "The New Brunswick Adventurers of '49" Proceedings of the New Jersey Historical Society, New Series 10 (January 1925): 12-28. Discusses formation of the New Brunswick & California Mining and Trading Company and the voyage of that group from New York, New York to San Francisco in the bark Isabel in 1849.

Latham, William B. "The Barque Stafford, the Record of Her Voyage to California. List of Passengers," The Society of California Pioneers Publications, (1943): 51-60.

Levy, JoAnn. They Saw the Elephant: Women in the California Gold Rush Hamden, Connecticut: Shoe String Press, 1990. The second chapter deals with traveling to California by sea by both the Cape Horn and the Isthmian routes.

Lewis, Oscar. Sea Routes to the Gold Fields: The Migration by Water to California in 1849-1852 New York: A. A. Knopf, 1949.

------ "South American Ports of Call," Pacific Historical Review 18 (January 1949):57-66. Brief descriptions of ports entered by vessels bound around Cape Horn to San Francisco in 1849.

Lorenz, Anthony J. "Scurvy in the Gold Rush," Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences 12 (1957): 473-510.

Marshall, Philip C. "New Jersey Expeditions to California in 1849," Proceedings of the New Jersey Historical Society 70 (January 1952): 17-36.

Marx, Jennifer. The Magic of Gold Garden City, New York: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1978. Contains two introductory chapters on gold in general and where and how it has been found and mined followed by thirteen chapters on the history of gold from the Pharaohs to the 20th century. Chapter 14 contains a small amount of information on the California gold rush of 1849-1852.

Morgan, William Ives. "The Log of a Forty-Niner," Harper's Magazine 113 (February 1906): 920-926. Extracts from his diary, 1849-1853 including his account of sailing around Cape Horn in the bark John Walls, Jr. in 1849.

Morse, Edwin Franklin. "The Story of a Gold Miner: Reminiscences of Edwin Franklin Morse," California Historical Society Quarterly 6 (September 1927): 205-237. Pages 205-212 contain a brief account of his voyage, December 5, 1849-June 17, 1850, from Boston, Massachusetts to San Francisco, California in the ship Cheshire under the command of Captain J. W. Dicks.

Nash, Jared C. To the Goldfields Around the Horn from Maine to California in the Schooner Belgrade No Place: No Publisher, ca. 1956. Contains copies of two letters Nash sent home to his wife in 1850 and his journal, December 1, 1849-February 12, 1850, during part of the voyage of the bark (rather than schooner) from Cherryfield, Maine to San Francisco, California under the command of Captain Plummer. Nash apparently became ill during the voyage and returned home to Maine without ever going into the mines.

Palmer, Robert H. A Voyage Round Cape Horn Philadelphia: William S. Young, 1863. Pages 1-18 contain an account of the voyage, August 7-December 13, 1849, from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania to San Francisco, California in the bark Maria under the command of Captain Mattison.

Parsons, John E. (Ed.) "Nine Cousins in the California Gold Rush," New York Historical Society Quarterly 47 (1963): 349-397. Nine cousins sailed from New York, New York for California in 1849. Their adventures were recorded in the letters written home by William J. Emmet and Herman R. LeRoy. Some of the letters deal with the voyage of three of them in the ship Christovol Colon under the command of Captain Francis C. Coffin.

[Payson, George, ] Golden Dreams and Leaden Realities New York: G. P. Putnam & Co., 1853. Has an introductory chapter by Francis Fogie, Sr., Esq. Pages 15-75 contain an account of the voyage of the ship Magnolia from New Bedford, Massachusetts to San Francisco, California in 1849. The book was originally published as being by Ralph Raven. Payson called the ship Leucothea and used pseudonyms for many of the individuals. S. M. Collins, who was also a passenger in the Magnolia provided the real names for those individuals in the transcribed copy of his journal.

Pomfret, John E. (Ed.) California Gold Rush Voyages, 1848-1849: Three Original Narratives San Marino, California: Huntington Library, 1954. Contains the journal of C. H. Ellis during the voyage from Boston, Massachusetts to San Francisco, California in the brig North Bend under the command of Captain R. G. Higgins, pp 11-96; brief notes of John N. Stone of the voyage of the ship Robert Bowne, pp. 97-176; and journals kept on board the steamer California from New York, New York to San Francisco, California.

Reynolds, Jerry. The Golden Dream of Francisco Lopez, Newhall, Califonria: Sants Clara Valley Historical Society, n.d.

Richardson, Katherine Wood, "The Gold Seekers: The Story of the LaGrange and the California Pioneers of New England," Essex Institute Historical Collections, 115 (1979):73-122. Reconstruction of the voyage of the bark LaGrange from Salem, Massachusetts to San Francisco, California, March-September, 1849. Has a month by month record of the voyage and a roster of passengers including the members of the Salem and California Mining and Trading Company. Also has 14 illustrations.

Richardson William H. "The Argonauts of Jersey City," Proceedings of the New Jersey Historical Society, New Series, 11 (1926): 170-186; 369-377; and 525-532. Brief accounts of various individuals, groups, and vessels which went from New Jersey to California in 1849.

Roberts, Sidney. To Emigrants to the Gold Region. An Appeal to Citizens of the U. S., the Martyrdom of the Two Prophets, Joseph and Hiram Smith--Doctrines of the Latter Day Saints--on the Melchizadek Priesthood--The Materiality of the Soul. A Treatise Showing the Best Way to California, with Many Serious Objections to Going by Sea, Doubling the Cape, or Crossing the Isthmus, with the constitution and articles of Agreement, of the Joint Stock Mutual Insurance Merchandizing company. By Sidney Roberts, of Iowa City, Iowa, Traveling Agent for the Company. New Haven: no publisher, January 1, 1849.

Robinson, Warren T. Dust and Foam; or, Three Oceans and Two Continents being Ten Year's Wandering in Mexico, South America, Sandwich Islands, the East and West Indies, China, Philippines, Australia, and Polynesia New York: Charles Scribner, 1859. Pages 11-142 contain an account of his 1849 voyage from New York, New York to San Francisco in an unnamed bark to Rio de Janeiro and an unnamed steamer the remainder of the way.

Rydell, Raymond A. "The California Clippers," Pacific Historical Review 18 (January 1949):70-83. Reprinted in John Walton Caughey Rushing for Gold Berkeley: University of California Press, 1949. American Historical Association, Pacific Coast Branch, Special Publication No. 1.

"Sacramento's Prison Ship the LaGrange," Golden Notes 20 (October 1974):1-12. Story about the bark which sailed from Salem, Massachusetts in 1849.

Schaeffer, L. M. Sketches of Travels in South America, Mexico, and California New York: James Egbert, Printer, 1860. Pages 7-31 contain an account of his voyage, March 24-September 17, 1849, from New York, New York to San Francisco, California in the ship Flavius under the command of Captain I. Thatcher.

Schultz, Charles R. "A Forty-Niner Fourth of July," Log of Mystic Seaport 38(Spring 1983):119-129.

------ "Ship Andalusia: Queen of the Baltimore Gold Rush Fleet," Maryland Historical Magazine 86(Summer 1991):151-175.

------ "Gold Rush Voyage of the Ship Pacific: A Study in Vessel Management," American Neptune 53(Summer, 1993): 190-200.

Shepard, George and S. L. Caldwell. Addresses of Rev. Professor George Shepard and Rev. S. L. Caldwell, to the California Pilgrims, from Bangor, Maine Bangor: Smith & Sayward, printers, 1849. Reprinted by the Meriden Gravure Company and the Carl Purington Rollins Printing-Office of the Yale University Press, Christmas 1966 for Frederick W. Beinecke in a limited edition of 350 copies. These two sermons were preached at the Hammond Street Church in Bangor, Maine on January 21, 1849 for the benefit of the passengers who were about to sail for San Francisco in the bark Suliote under the command of Captain J. Simpson and the schooner Eudorus under the command of Captain Charles L. Wiggin. Passenger lists for the two vessels are included in the reprint taken from the Bangor Daily Whig and Courier.

Smith, Charles H. Historical Sketch of the Lives of William Wiggin Smith and Joseph Hiram Smith, a Pair of New England Twins Who Became California Pioneers in 1849 Avalon, California: Privately Printed, 1942. Pages 21-35 contain an account of their voyage, January 11-July 6, 1849, from Boston, Massachusetts to San Francisco, California in the brig Forest under the command of Captain N. Varina.

Taylor, William. California Life Illustrated. New York: Published for the author by Carlton & Porter, 1860.

Thomas, Martin E. "Sea Voyages to El Dorado with a Descriptive Bibliography of Journals and Letters, 1848-1856." MA Thesis, University of California, Berkeley, California, 1937. Actually it is called a "Special Study" rather than a thesis. It is an extensively annotated bibliography of published and unpublished accounts of voyages, both Cape Horn and Isthmian, to San Francisco. Includes reference to twenty-five published and twenty-one, unpublished accounts.

Tibbits, Hall J. Statement of Hall J. Tibbits, Master of the American Ship Pacific, as to His Removal from the Command of Said Ship, by Gorham Parks, U. S. Consul, at Rio de Janeiro New York: George F. Nesbitt, Stationer and Printer, 1849. This small pamphlet contains some introductory remarks by Captain Tibbits and copies of nineteen documents on file at the U. S. Consulate in Rio de Janeiro relating to the removal of Tibbits. All of the documents were selected by Tibbits to further his cause in having himself restored to command of the Pacific. He was successful in that campaign and met the ship in San Francisco and resumed command of her. An original exists at the California State Library, California Section, Sacramento, California.

Wells, Thomas Goodwin, "Letters of an Argonaut from August, 1849 to October, 1851," Out West 22 (January 1905): 48-54, (March 1905): 136-42, and (April 1905): 221-28. Wells was one of the founders of the Cheshire Company organized in southwestern New Hampshire late in 1849 to go to California. They sailed from Boston, Massachusetts to San Francisco, California in the ship Sweden under the command of Captain Jesse G. Cotting. None of the letters contain any information on the voyage, but a couple of them contain early impressions of San Francisco.

Whidden, John D. Ocean Life in the Old Sailing Ships Days. From Forecastle to Quarter-Deck by Captain John D. Whidden Boston: Little, Brown, and Company, 1912. Pages 78-83 contain brief mention of his voyage from Boston, Massachusetts, to San Francisco, California in the bark Tiberias under the command of Captain Elisha Foster.

Winslow, Helen L. "Nantucket Forty-Niners: Gold Rush Voyages and a Passenger's Journal of a Voyage Around the Horn," Historic Nantucket 4 (January 1956): 6-28.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 11:29 AM

And here is a long quote from Capt. John D. Whidden about screwing cotton in New Orleans in the 1850's, and how the stevedore "chanties" went to sea as "shanties." It seems very similar to what Nordhoff observed:


Capt. John D. Whidden (1832-1915?)
Ocean Life in the Old Sailing Ship Days, published by Little, Brown, and Co., Boston, US, 1908-1912
Reprinted by Kessinger Publishing, 2006
Quoted by Bill and Gene Bonyun in their book Full Hull and Splendid Passage, published by Alfred A. Knopf, New York, US, © 1969, p. 112-113.

The New Orleans Waterfront

"For miles along the banks, or levees, extends the shipping, lying in tiers, loading cotton, staves, or tobacco, but principally cotton. The bales were rolled from the levee by the stevedore's gangs, generally roustabout darkies, up to the staging, and tumbled on deck and down the hold, where they were received by gangs of cotton-screwers…The bales were placed in tiers, and when they would apparently hold no more, with the aid of planks and powerful cotton-screws, several bales would be driven in where it would appear to a novice impossible to put one.

Four men to a screw constituted a gang, and it was a point of honor to screw as many bales in a ship's hold as could possibly be crammed in, and in some cases even spring the decks upwards, such a power was given to the screw. All this work was accompanied by a song, often improvised and sung by the 'chantie' man…The chorus would come in with a vim, and every pound in the muscles of the gang would be thrown into the handle-bars of the cotton-screws, and a bale of cotton would be driven in where there appeared to be but a few inches of space.

The songs or 'chanties' from hundreds of these gangs of cotton-screwers could be heard all along the river front, day after day, making the levees of New Orleans a lively spot. As the business of cotton-screwing was dull during the summer months, the majority of the gangs, all being good sailors, shipped on some vessel that was bound for some port in Europe to pass the heated term and escape the 'yellow Jack' which was prevalent at that season."

Bonyun further notes:

"At sea, the cotton screwers adapted their wharf-side shanties to shipboard work. So although Whidden did not take down any of the songs they sung ashore, he did quote a pumping shanty reminiscent of their work at the screws:

Mobile Bay

Was you ever down in Mobile Bay,
Johnny come tell us and pump away,
A-screwing cotton by the day,
Johnny, come tell us and pump away!

Grand Chorus:

Aye, aye, Pump away,
Johnny, come tell us and pump away!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 06:15 PM

Charley, you're going to have to hire me a research assistant! This is a very interesting bibliography, and thanks for the information on cotton stowing. I am turning my attention to the Gulf port cotton trade songs next.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 07:58 PM

John-

You're more than welcome!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:40 AM

Between 1853 and 1855, the barque "Julia Ann" made four trips from San Francisco to Sydney, Australia. On the fourth return trip, October 3, 1855, she was ship-wrecked in the South Seas near the Scilly Islands.

Here is a slightly updated and revised listing of those voyages:

Voyage #1   
        Departed San Francisco April 12, 1853.
        Arrived in SydneyJune 22, 1853.
        Departed Sydney on or about August 25, 1853.
        Arrived in San Francisco on October 12, 1853.

Voyage #2
        Departed San Francisco on December 2, 1853.
        Arrived in Sydney on January 24, 1854.
        Departed Sydney on March 22, 1854.
        Arrived in San Pedro CA on June 13, 1854. (83 days)
       Arrived in San Francisco shortly thereafter.

Voyage #3
        Departed San Francisco July 26, 1854 for Puget Sound
       Departed Puget Sound October 8, 1854.
        Arrived in Sydney on December 5 1854.
        Cleared for San Francisco, via Newcastle on December 21, 1854
        Departed Newcastle for San Francisco on January 17, 1855
        Arrived in San Francisco on ?

Final Voyage #4
        Departed San Francisco May 19th, 1855.
        Arrived in Sydney on July 24, 1855.
        Departed from Sydney on Friday, September 7th, 1855.
        Ran aground and sank off the Scilly Islands on October 3-4, 1855.            

[My thanks to Warren Fahey, of Australia, for some additional source information.]

My question is this. What shanties *could* have been sung on these voyages made by the "Julia Ann"? To my knowledge, there is no historical record in a ship's log or from other accounts of any specific shanties being sung or heard on these trips. So I realize that the answers will be speculative.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:44 AM

After surveying the available written documents for the period prior to about 1860, I have turned my attention to a broader survey of what shanties might have been current at the time of the "Julia Ann's" voyages. You will find an outline of my areas of concern here:

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=1#2827215

So far I have considered possible shanties sung on board the SLAVE TRADERS, the PIRATE ships of the 19th century, the EAST INDIA TRADERS, and the WHALERS. I now want to turn my attention to a rather large category.   The boundaries are somewhat amorphous and arbitrary. I want to look at shanties that either originate or were influenced by the Black cultures of the South in the first half of the 19th century.

I am making an arbitrary distinction, for now, between "the Black South", and the Caribbean area, even though there was probably a good deal of overlap. Initially, I will not try to separate out four further categories: "slave songs", songs derived from the minstrel shows, and "stevedore songs" used for loading cargo, especially cotton, and actual shanties sung by Black crew members. Obviously there was probably a lot of overlap amongst these categories.

I am especially interested in the geographical locale of the southern Gulf ports which were active during the early cotton trading days.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:04 AM

There has been a lot of good work done on previous Mudcat threads in the area of "Black" shanties. Aside from threads dealing with specific shanties, I want to mention two particularly helpful and important discussions:

thread.cfm?threadid=97356

thread.cfm?threadid=119776&messages=60&page=1    [There are five pages, listed at the top, to this thread on "Rare Caribbean Shanties".]

These threads are background for any discussion here and I won't try to duplicate them. My primary concern has to do with whether a shanty may have been current in the time period leading up to 1853, and whether it might have been present in the San Francisco Bay area, or in Sydney, or Melbourne, or Newcastle on the Australian end of these voyages by the "Julia Ann". Or even in Tahiti or Honolulu or up in the Puget Sound area of Washington state, since the "Julia Ann" picked up, or could have picked up crew members at any of these stops along the way.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 11:56 AM

I'm going to list the shanties that I found in Hugill's SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS (1961) that may have been in some way influenced by Southern Black culture. In some cases, it may be the whole song and in others only a certain version of a song that is involved. I realize that the history of the interaction of minstrel songs with Black culture is complicated, but for my present purposes, I am assuming that these songs were influenced by Black culture.

This list follows a chronological reading from Hugill's book, and there are several editions to this book, so I will not list page numbers this time.

"My Dollar And A Half A Day" ("Lowlands")
"Stormalong", especially:
   "Walk Me Along, Johnny" &
   "Yankee John, Stormalong"
"Santiana"
"Round The Bay Of Mexico"
"A Long Time Ago"
"Sacramento"
"Goodbye, My Love, Goodbye"
"Roll The Old Chariot"
"Roll The Cotton Down"
"Roll The Woodpile Down"
"Sally Brown" (?)
"Shenandoah"
"A Rolling Down The River"
"Goodnight Ladies"
"Rolling Home By The Silvery Moon"
"Knock A Man Down"
"Huckleberry Picking"
"Hilo, Johnny Brown"
"Shallow Brown"
"Johnny Come Down To Hilo"
"The Gal With the Blue Dress On"
"Ten Stone"
"The Hog-eye Man"
"John, Come Tell Us As We Haul Away"
"Johnny Bowker"
"Heave Away" ("I'd rather court a yellow gal than work for Henry Clay")
"The Old Moke Pickin' On The Banjo"
"Gimme My Banjo"
"Run, Let The Bullgine Run"
"Clear The Track, Let The Bullgine Run"
"Roller Bowler"
"Good Mornin' Ladies All"
"Walk Along My Rosie"
"Coal Black Rosie"
"Bunch O Roses" (?)
"Way, Me Susiana"
"Poor Lucy Ann"
"Doodle Let Me Go"
"Whup Jamboree"
"Round The Corner Sally"
"Sister Susan"/"Shinbone Al"
"Walkalong, Miss Susiana Brown"
"Southern Ladies"
"Miss Lucy Long"
"Dixie Land" / "Sing A Song, Blow-Along O!"
"Gumtree Canoe"
"One More Day"
"Dance The Boatman"
"Bully In The Alley"
"Cheer Up, Sam" (?)

My criteria for placing a song on this list are:

Hugill mentions some connection with Southern Black culture, or
Another shanty collector mentions such a connection, or
Connections show up in non-shanty sources      

I am aware that in a couple of cases, Hugill attributes a song to a Caribbean source. In that case, either his source makes mention of the Gulf Ports or some other collector has another version of the same song independent of the Caribbean.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 12:17 PM

To the list should be added:

Fire Maringo
Congo River

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 12:23 PM

The only songs that have a specific reference to the business of sailing, in the above listing for which we have written documentation are:

"Sally Ann" (from Captain Marryat's DIARY IN AMERICA)
"Stormalong" (along "Yankee Dollar" and "Fire Maringo" from Charles Nordhoff's MERCHANT VESSEL) .

And, "Sally Ann" is the only song actually referred to as being used on board a ship at sea in what we have come to know as a "shanty" function. The reference to "Stormalong" is in relationship to stowing cotton in port.

We may be able to find written documentation for certain antecedents or parallels to other songs in the list, but probably not for their use as sea shanties. This does not mean that they were not in use as sea shanties prior to 1855.   But our suggestions about such use can only be speculative.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 02:12 PM

Hi John

Again, I'm not sure exactly where you're going with this :) But your methods are yours, so more power to ya!

I have done an "analysis" of SfSS -- HIGHLY contentious, to be sure. But anybody's is bound to be, for reasons you have listed. I too had to impose some criteria to give the data SOME kind of tangibility. My criteria were very similar to yours. I also allowed each chantey to come under multiple categories. So one that I have marked with "Black" may also be marked "Irish," for example. I also had a category of "indeterminate" for when I really did not want to skew the figures too much by allowing my biases to creep in. For example, my personal feeling is that "South Australia" comes from something of Black origin, or at least something "American" that was born out of the combined experience of Black and other cultures in my country (where the Black contribution was a key element). But I thought it would be irresponsible to label it as such without a bit more evidence, ...and I don't think it is definitely "English," either....so I put it down as "indeterminate". Of course, MOST of the chanteys could be called of "indeterminate" origin, but if I had taken that approach, it would defeat the goal of the whole exercise. So, like you, I had to impose some positive criteria.

I am not going to post my own "list." So this is all "for what it's worth." Anyways, the count of chanteys that I tagged with "Black" (exclusive of Caribbean) was 70 (for comparison, you have about 52 here). That made, according to my reckoning, 22% of the chanteys in the collection. If I added "Caribbean" to that, I got 37%. That percentage is very low, in my opinion, because Hugill is so inclusive of chanteys that at one time or another may have been used --i.e. he includes a lot of forebitters and such that do not have core chantey characteristics-- that the numbers are skewed. And just another comparison "for what it's worth": If one looks at the abridged edition, where all the non-English language texts are removed, the Black+Caribbean percentage rises to 52%. Again, there is so much uncertainty in all this, but I do feel confident that at least a good HALF of English language chanteys were of Black derivation to some degree.

If you take a collection that is full of HARDCORE chanteys :) by which I mean true, unequivocal work songs that really sit square in the genre, not as a catch-all category, but with more coherent characteristics... then take Bullen's book. Bullen only begrudgingly allowed his editors to include two forebitters, and he makes sure to mark them off clearly -- he does not say, "Well, if you wanted to, you could also tramp around the capstan to this English shore ballad." So if you were analyze his list, you'd find the vast majority of them to be Black, and indeed his stated opinion was that most were "of Negroid origin."

I have no issue with Hugill's inclusiveness. But I encourage people to read it with that in mind. In other words, though he includes so many pieces, very many of them were probably infrequently used. If somehow we could boil down a list of the "most used" chanteys, then I think we'd find a rough balance between Black and Anglo-White influences -- the chanteys could not exist without both. My personal *interpretation* is that chanteys were born of a Black tradition -- African-American -- which no doubt in itself was the result of a culture combination that included English...but which nonetheless was distinct. The paradigm was adopted by others (non-Blacks) who had become acculturated to that culture. Once the *practice* and the model forms were adopted, they became a shell into which many more cultural influences and songs could be incorporated.

This is getting off topic. But it is to say that in 1853, the concept/definition of "chanty" had to have been much more narrow than it was by the 20th century. And, *in my opinion*, a "Black" element was part and parcel to the genre, such that it is *very* difficult to distinguished them as a separate category at that time period! Even a chantey like "Hieland Laddie," which would seem to have some obvious Scottish origin, was perhaps already transformed in a Black setting before it became a chanty. (Consider as well that much of the material in SfSS that seems decidedly non-Black was material that accrued to the genre in later eras, e.g. of the 4 masted barks of Europe, the guano trade, etc.) The probably-older chanties that seem to me less likely of Black influence are mainly short hauls. (In later years, capstan chanties are the ones adopted from other sources.) Certainly, by far the area most concentrated with Black chanties is halyard chanties. A fun challenge would be to see how many halyard (yard-hoisting) chanties we could try to name that do NOT seem to have some Black origin.

Gibb

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 02:41 PM

"Hieland Laddie" is specifically cited (somewhere!) as an example of a shanty that the cotton screwers would use for compressing bales of cotton in the gulf ports. What's unclear is whether it originated there or was simply reprocessed.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 02:51 PM

Remember that the cotton screwers were often English; they were specialists at a demanding job and were paid accordingly.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:02 PM

Gibb, I appreciate your work and your insights. I like what you say about the possible Black origins of "South Australia" and I meant to include it because it shows up in Lydia Parrish's SLAVE SONGS OF THE GEORGIA SEA ISLANDS.   

I know I've seen your list and was trying to find it this morning but I couldn't put my hands on it. Is it in the "Rare Caribbean" thread? I'd like at least a link to that.

I'm a pluralist and I always like more than two alternatives, so the more categories the better, and if a song shows up in every one of them that's probably an important song, if my very arbitrary categories have any validity at all. I can easily imagine a song coming out of the cotton fields and down the rivers to New Orleans and being used on the docks by the Black stevedores, and being picked up by the Yankee/British/Irish packet guys down for the winter, and sailing back to Liverpool with the cotton, and then back to New York, just in time for the Gold Rush and off around Cape Horn to San Francisco, and then on board the "Julia Ann" and out to Sydney, where it meets its cousin coming from the other direction on an immigrant ship. I can't document any actual songs doing this from written historical records, but I can imagine it.   

Where I am "going" is an exercise in historical imagination. For me that means that while the content is fluid because we don't have any exact referents to speak of, the broader contexts are well-documented.   We actually know quite a bit about what was going on in the 19th century. That gives me the historical parameters for my imagination.

I doubt if "just any" or "all" of these shanties were crossing back and forth across the Pacific in the early 1850s. But some of them probably were. And there must be some ways to tighten the boundaries and say "more likely" this one than that one. But maybe that's not even possible. So then, I'll go for the possibility that this or that particular shanty family could have been around by such and such a time, and might have made it out to the West Coast.

I'm trying to imagine what it was like to make those voyages and most particularly, what it might have sounded like. Harlow does a remarkable job of giving such a picture for a time period 20 years after the "Julia Ann". That may be the closest I can come, but it's worth the effort to try to be a little more specific.

And also, where I am "going" is I am finally taking the opportunity to learn as much as I can about all of these shanties and their history in the 19th century.

I appreciate your statistics and your intuition that say "at least a good HALF of English language chanteys were of Black derivation to some degree."

[I had to interrupt this note to listen to my all time favorite group "The Carolina Chocolate Drops" on NPR. What a truly wonderful group and what a fine way to get in touch with a unique interpretation of some of the music that might just lie behind some of these shanties!]

I just got through looking at Bullen for a different purpose and now you've given me a different set of lens to take another look. I think that your "personal interpretation" rings true for me:

" that chanteys were born of a Black tradition -- African-American -- which no doubt in itself was the result of a culture combination that included English...but which nonetheless was distinct. The paradigm was adopted by others (non-Blacks) who had become acculturated to that culture. Once the *practice* and the model forms were adopted, they became a shell into which many more cultural influences and songs could be incorporated."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:46 PM

Gibb, I find your last paragraph above fascinating. You take Hugill's idea of "the shanty mart" a step beyond itself. If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that at least most of the halyard shanties didn't just "pass through the shanty mart" of the cotton ports, but actually were born there, or thereabouts. Both "Black" and "White" songs were perhaps adopted as work songs and were transformed into what became shanties.

I also find your statement that "in 1853, the concept/definition of "chanty" had to have been much more narrow than it was by the 20th century" intriguing.   You go on to say, "*in my opinion*, a "Black" element was part and parcel to the genre, such that it is *very* difficult to distinguished them as a separate category at that time period!" The category of "shanty/chanty" was not so all inclusive back then and it was by its nature as perhaps a work song deeply influenced by Black culture.

This just might be a clue about how to better focus my lens on the early 1850s. Try looking for - at least halyard - shanties that definitely have a "Black" influence to them, which is closer to the surface.

Charley's note above about Captain Whidden in New Orleans describing how the cotton-screwing songs went to sea and became shanties seems to make sense in the context of what you are saying. And the pumping shanty that he quotes could well be an example of how "Hieland Laddie" became a shanty. And it just might be an earlier version of that shanty. Here is the book by Whidden:

http://books.google.com/books?id=MOtDAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Ocean+Life+In+The+Old+Sailing+Days&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=fals

and here is the page:

http://books.google.com/books?id=MOtDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA99&dq=Were+you+ever+down+in+Mobile+Bay&cd=2#v=onepage&q=Were%20you%20ever%20d

Hugill gives this as "John, Come Tell Us As We Haul Away" on pages 287-288/'61, which is in my list above.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:27 PM

Whidden's source is his "old friend, Captain George Meacom, of Beverly [Mass.]." Meacom refers to his own recollection of the 1850s, and his testimony seems to be reliable.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:35 PM

Specifically, Meacom supplied the "chantie" texts, but Whidden's experience concurs that shanty singing was widespread in N.O. in the early '50s.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:34 PM

In the light of our discussion above, perhaps we can add "Highland Laddie", from Nordhoff's discussion in MERCHANT VESSEL, which he heard as a cotton-screwing song in Mobile, to our list of shanties that may have been influenced by Black culture. Here is my previous discussion of this shanty earlier in this thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=1#2826380

And from the same source, Charley's suggestion of "Fire Maringo". Charlie has also suggested "Congo River". I would qualify this slightly and say some versions of "Blow Boys, Blow".

Q's point about the make up of the cotton-screwing gangs is important. It would seem that sometimes there were separate white and black gangs and sometimes they were mixed. There certainly must have been plenty of opportunity to share songs.

Lighter, thanks for the additional information on Captain Whidden and his source, Captain Meacom, and for the dating on this. Meacom also mentions "Fire Down Below" and "One More Day" being used as pumping "chanties". See the link above to Captain Whidden's work, page 99. So I would also add these two shanties to my list of ones influenced by Black culture.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:07 AM

John-

Some real progress, and agreement here!

I do doubt that an individual cotton-screwing team (four men and a foreman/chantieman) were mixed Black and White. On the high seas it seems more likely that Black and White were mixed together within a watch, although Hugill mentions that sometimes watches were segregated "checkerboard" fashion.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:59 PM

Oh, here's some more fun, references to "shanty singing" in the 1840's. I've been following up some leads in Bill and Gene Bonyun's book Full Hull and Splendid Passage and this one paid off:

Some Recollections, by Captain Charles P. Low, published by Geo. H. Ellis Co., Boston, US, © 1906 (http://www.archive.org/stream/somerecollection00lowciala/somerecollection00lowciala_djvu.txt)

Commanding the Clipper Ships "Houqua," "Jacob Bell," "Samuel Russell," and "N. B. Palmer." in the China Trade 1847-1873.

Aboard the "Toronto" from Boston to London, circa 1844, p. 35

We had a crew of thirty seamen and four ordinaries, no boys. The crew was made up of the hardest kind of men; they were called "hoosiers," working in New Orleans or Mobile during the winter at stowing ships with cotton, and in the summer sailing in the packet ships. They were all good chantey men; that is, they could all sing at their work and were good natured and could work hard, but they did not care much about the officers and would not be humbugged or hazed. Besides this large crew, we had as steerage passengers twenty men from the ship Coromandel, an East India ship that had come home from a two years' voyage, who were going to London on a spree. The steerage passage cost only "fifteen dollars and find themselves." They were also a jolly set of fellows and when we reefed topsails or made sail they all joined in with us, so that our work was easy and we could reef and hoist all three topsails at once, with a different song for each one. In the dog watch, from six to eight in the evening, they would gather on the forecastle and sing comic songs and negro melodies.

Arriving at the London docks: p. 37

The London docks are all enclosed, and you can only enter at high tide, slack water; and as soon as the ship is in, the gates are shut. It was very late in the evening when we entered, and while hauling in, the two crews united in singing, and made such noise that the dock master requested the mates to stop them, as they would wake up the whole of London. But when the sailors heard this they only sang the louder and only stopped when the ship was made fast.

Loading Cargo: p. 38

We had a great many tons of these cheeses on board as freight. Some weighed one hundred and fifty to two hundred pounds and were very ugly things to handle. The sailors discharged the cargo and hove the sling loads up by a winch at the mainmast. If very heavy we took the load to the capstan; and while we were heaving away, at eleven in the morning, the sailors struck up "Roll and go for that white pitcher, roll and go," and the steward would come up with a great pitcher filled with rum, and give each of us a drink. The same thing was repeated at four in the afternoon. This was varied when we were taking in cargo, which consisted of a great deal of railroad iron and we had to pass it in from a lighter alongside and then down the hold. It was terribly hard work, and instead of the rum, a quart of beer from the tap room was brought to each one at eleven in the morning and four in the afternoon. I do not think we could have held out without it.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:14 PM

Great find, Charley.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:09 PM

Lighter-

Feel free to review the on-line copy of Some Recollections, there may be more gold to sift out.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 07:01 AM

&messagesI would like to make these additions to my proposed list of shanties that may have been influenced by Southern Black culture.

thread.cfm?threadid=126347=1#2839983

I am continuing to make the rather artificial distinction between "Southern Black" (US) culture and that of the West Indies with regard to shanties. There is overlap.

We've already mentioned these six shanties:

"Highland Laddie"
"Fire Maringo"
"Blow Boys, Blow"
"Fire Down Below"
"One More Day" (Colcord)
"South Australia" (Parrish, Abrahams)

I would also add:

"Sing Sally O!"/"Mudder Dinah" (Bullen)
"Poor Old Man" (Colcord)
"John Cherokee" (Colcord)
"Hilo Come Down Below" (Bullen)
"Hilonday" (L. Smith)
"The Bully Boat"/"Ranzo Ray" (Sharp)
"Running Down to Cuba" (Whall, Shay - one line)
"Hurrah, You Santy, My Dear Honey" (a version of "Can't You Dance The Polka - Alden)
"Little Sally Racket" (a version of "Cheerily, Men" - Laura Smith)
"De Sandy Boy"
"Yellow Rose of Texas"
"Tommy's Gone Away" (cotton screwing, Sharp)
"Whisky Johnny" (some verses)
"Haul Away, Joe" (some verses)
"Slapandergosheka" (according to L. Smith)


Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 09:34 AM

John-

So these songs are in addition to those you suggested above.

Barry Finn revived a two more on his CD titled Fathom This (2007) that might be added to the list:

Hard Times in Ol' Virginia (Georgia Sea island Singers as recorded by Lomax on Southern Journey; Lydia Parrish in Slave Songs of the Georgia Sea Islands)

Good-Bye My Riley-O (also in Parrish above)

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 12:10 PM

Thanks for those additions, Charlie. I've enjoyed Barry's renditions of both of them and always have appreciated his historical awareness as well as his singing.

I want to add a few more suggestions to my list of shanties that have *possibly* been influenced by Black culture:

"Larry Marr"
"The Sailor Fireman" - a riverboat version of "Fire Down Below" Hugill, p. 115
"Lower The Boat Down"   from Colcord
"Billy Riley"
"Heave Away" from Sandburg
"Paddy Lay Back"/"Mainsail Haul"
"Walk Me Along, Johnny"

And, I want to offer this link from Gibb Sahib that has all of the West Indian related shanties from Hugill:

thread.cfm?threadid=119776&messages=218#2687144

There will be some overlap of the West Indian shanties with my lists. And here are a couple of additions to Gibb's list of West Indian related shanties:

"So Early In The Morning" - Hugill's (c), p. 57/'61
"A Long Time Ago" / "Johnny Jernan' wuz a Portugee man" from Hugill, p. 103/'61
"Hilo, Johnny Brown" from Hugill, p. 254/'61
"Walkalong, Miss Susianna Brown" Hugill, p. 391-392/'61

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 03:08 PM

Thanks for the shout-out, John. Just to clarify: I don't consider those to be "all of the West Indian related shanties from Hugill." They are chanties "contributed by stated Caribbean informants." The list considers who supplied the info, not the actual origin of the chanties.

That list has 54 chanties; I think I may have added 2 or 3 since then. By contrast, my tally of possibly Caribbean-influenced chanteys in Hugill is 49 -- It is a different set, and I have not posted a list of that. Elsewhere in the thread, I had begun to make a cumulative, on-going list of chanties that I was judging to fit in the nebulous category that is the topic of the thread -- and which does not draw a distinction between Black American and Caribbean sources. (I've not gotten around to "finishing" that inquiry.) So, three *different* sets of data.

On a different note: Is "Heave Away" (Sandburg) a "chantey"? My sense is that it is included by Hugill as a comparative example alone (just as "Yellow Meal" is a ballad that is also being compared to "Heave Away My Johnnies"). When I get time later, I hope to say more about that. I've just learned "Heave Away", so it stirred up some thoughts :)

Heave Away

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 03:54 PM

Hey, Gibb, I just lost my reply to your post, so I will try again. I hate that! Thanks for the clarification on the lists. I have been trying to sort out the difference between "Harding" as a source of a shanty and a shanty coming from the West Indies. I would welcome your "tally of possibly Caribbean-influenced chanteys in Hugill". I'm just getting ready to put up another list of the possibly Black-influenced shanties that "passed through" the cotton ports and were used as cotton-stowing/screwing songs and later became shanties. I've given the ones for which there is written documentation (that I know about so far) as well as the ones that Hugill "suggests" might have been used that way. It gets a bit fuzzy for me. His suggestions seem more than a little bit tentative. But maybe there are some broad outlines in all of this.

With regard to "Heave Away", I really don't have much to go on and would trust your judgement as to whether you think it is a shanty or not. Sandburg simply says: "This is among the few known work songs of the slave days of the American negro." (407). Hugill mentions the statement in A TREASURY OF AMERICAN SONG that this is a "*Negro fireman's* song". I don't have access to the TREASURY so I can't say any more about that. I really like your rendition, and I encourage everyone to read your YouTube commentary since it sums up very this song very well.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 04:42 PM

I realize how tentative some of this information may be. But, as I said in my previous note, there may be some useful broad outlines here. I wanted to bring my list of "Black-influenced" shanties into a little more focus by presenting the ones that may have been used in the Gulf ports for stowing cotton, etc.

I suspect that there were at least two different sets here. One was the set of work songs coming down the rivers, from the plantations and wherever else the slaves were working, to the ports, where they were used for loading and unloading the cargo from the ships. Another set may have been the ones which were already shanties and which came into port on the ships and were picked up and modified by the workers on shore. The supposition here is that both sets were incorporated in one form or another into the larger sea-going collection of shanties.   And both were probably heavily influenced by the Black work force.

Cotton-screwing song given by Phillip Henry Gosse near Mobile (December 31,1838):

"Fire the ringo"

Songs given by Erskine as "cotton-screwing" songs in New Orleans (September of 1845):

"Bonnie Laddie"
"Fire Maringo"

Songs given by Nordhoff as "cotton-screwing" songs in Mobile (between 1845 and 1853):

"Hieland Laddie"
"Fire Maringo"
"Stormalong"
"Yankee Dollar"

Songs given by Captain Whidden from Captain Meacom's collection of pumping shanties that may have come from the wharfs of New Orleans (1850s):

"John, Come Tell Us As We Haul Away"/ "Johnny Come Tell Us And Pump Away!"
"Fire Down Below"
"One More Day"

Songs that Hugill associates with the cotton hoosiers and the Gulf ports and cotton-stowing (he does not offer any documentation for his suppositions):

"My Dollar And A Half A Day" ("Lowlands")
"Walk Me Along, Johnny"
"Round The Bay Of Mexico"
"Hieland Laddie"
"Roll The Cotton Down" (b)
"Knock A Man Down" from Sharp
"Hilo, Boys, Hilo"
"Hilo Come Down Below" (Bullen)
"Shallow Brown"
"The Gal With the Blue Dress On"
"The Hog-eye Man"
"John, Come Tell Us As We Haul Away"/ "Mobile Bay"
"Hooker John"
"Heave Away" ("I'd rather court a yellow gal than work for Henry Clay") from Sandburg
    [As Gibb has pointed out above, this may not be a shanty.]
"Paddy Lay Back"/"Mainsail Haul"
"Good Mornin' Ladies All" (b)
"Walkalong, Miss Susiana Brown"
"Dixie Land" / "Sing A Song, Blow-Along O!"
"John Cherokee" (Colcord)
"Billy Riley"
"One More Day" (Colcord)
"Bully In The Alley"

Others:

"Tommy's Gone Away" (Sharp) cotton-screwing
"A Long Time Ago"   (Hugill (d) & Sharp)
"Hooraw For The Blackball Line"   (Sharp)
"Roll The Cotton Down" (Hugill (a) & (b)
"Shenandoah" / "O Shenandoah, My Bully Boy" (Bullen)
"Ten Stone" (Hugill)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:06 PM

My couple thoughts here are not really directed at any one specific thing. Mostly I am just following up on my mention that "Heave Away" (Sandburg) had me thinking.

I am inclined to think that this "Heave Away" example is brilliant evidence brought in by Hugill to illustrate one of the common ways chanties had developed.

"Heave Away" mirrors the "story" exemplified by "Blow the Man" -- and we're in the realm of interpretation here, not proof. "Blow the Man Down" looks like it was based in an African-American work song, "Knock a Man Down." When I say "based in", keep in mind my take on the definition of a chanty -- that its core identity is a tune (roughly) and a chorus phrase. And the form the chanties take, at a certain early period, at least, is something that I think emerged from African-American work song style. I like the term "African-American" in this case because it has the possibility of being inclusive of U.S. and Caribbean Black expressions, i.e. "American" as the Americas, the New World...and the idea that people of African heritage, having come to the New World, created a form of expression that was both based in African practices and also had an essential element of European culture to it.

That being my interpretation, I see the various, once-used solo verse lyrics of Blow the Man Down as something peripheral to the chantey's fundamental identity. Sets of ballad-like verses had been spliced onto the chantey, like those from "Ratcliffe Highway", "The Fishes," "The Milkmaid," etc. These verses were more likely supplied by Anglo-Irish-Americans, one would imagine.

Taken as as specific instance, one can look at a version of BTMD and say that such and such was Black influence and such and such is Irish influence, etc. And I would agree with that. Moreover, I would say that it becomes fairly pointless at that level to try to attribute the chantey to any particular ethnic/national group. So I am not trying to say that BTMD must be acknowledged as a Black chantey.

I am saying, rather, that I think the base form of BTMD emerged at one point from African-American culture, as that was just a fact of the chantey genre of that time/type. I would not say, when strictly speaking, that BTMD was "Black-influenced", because that 1) downgrades my assertion that its genre was, *at its core*, Black and 2) implies the chantey genre's genesis was not of any particular culture. It is like talking about "Black-influenced Rap." I mean, it is recognized today that anyone can and will Rap, and that many have had an influence on the genre. Rap is not the property of Black people [anymore]. But we do reserve an awareness that, however the genre is used, it was mainly a product of Black culture. "Black-influenced chanty" is almost like "Chanty-influenced chanty"--i.e. a proper chanty of the period. And if *that* sounds really weird, try this. Suppose we remove the identifier "Black," not wanting to ascribe chanties too closely to an easily-identified ethnic group. Well, I'd still say that chanties are to be ascribed to *some* cultural group (be it "screwman's culture" or "sailor's culture") and it would amount to the same thing that he chanties have a fundamental cultural basis that is not to be skewed by incidental or latter additions/variations.

I am not trying to force my interpretation of "chanties, proper" as a product of Black culture. I'm establishing it so you'll know how I read the various attributions of chanties to lists like "Black-influenced chanties." So for instance, I consider "A Long Time Ago" to be a Black chantey --in the context of an "origins" discussion-- and as such to attribute only one form of it as Black-influenced just sounds weird to me. The variations are neither here nor there. They tell us about the trajectory of the genre, who was singing the chanties at certain points, etc. They don't affect a given chanty's "original" identity.

Thinking again about how the halyard chanties seem to be more of the "original" chanties (or Black chanties, if you will)... (And again: how many non-Black halyard chanties can we think of? The short hauls existed earlier than the "chantey creation era"; I am thinking of the "Haul on the Bowline"s. AND, there were "capstan songs" (e.g. THE QUID); one could scarcely imagine no songs at all being sung at some point during that older chore. But remember that halyard chanties -- the intermittent action kind of work song, like for cotton-screwing, and which should really be distinguished well from capstan chanties -- emerged during the period of the new packet ships. I think there is a really important correlation between the time period, the type of work (heavy yard hoisting) on the ships, and African-American work song genres that brought it all together. In the least, one should really differentiate this era of chanties and the form of halyard chanties (which were the ones that Hugill notes were the most irrevocably "salty") from the mass of other stuff thrown in under the term "chantey." Earlier there were maritime work songs, yes. And later on, once the habit of singing became ubiquitous on ships, there were many more songs adopted and filed under "chantey." But there was something distinct about the genre (seemingly) first born of the 1830s-1840s. Black influence being a given on that, for me "Black-influence" actually becomes irrelevant to the discussion.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:34 PM

John and Gibb-

I really love what you're accomplishing here, some critical re-ordering of what some of us wanteebee shantymen have been singing for years.

One West Indies shanty that appears to be missing from the list is "Lowlands Low":

Hugill learned this one from his shantying companion Old Smith from the Island of Tobago in the 1930's. It's described as a halyard shanty but it's really only to be used for light sails which can be swiftly raised. Very similar to how they would have used "Coal Black Rose."

"Lowlands Low" has nothing do do with the other "Lowlands" night visiting songs.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:54 PM

Gibb, why do you say that "Knock a Man Down" was an African-American antecedent of "BTMD" instead of a variant of it?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 10:36 PM

Lighter,

My interpretation is based on inferences drawn from the text references and on the text of the chantey, as well as many hunches based on what I think I understand about the genre. Not much to go on, but something to consider.

I'm pasting some of the sketchy notes on historiography here, from my YouTube vid.

Being [ostensibly] a song of the translatlantic packet ships (1840s-50s),[perhaps these dates are really too early] as per oral accounts retold in later days, "Blow the Man Down" *appears* to have existed since those days. However, in the textual record, so far as I am able to tell at present, "Knock a Man Down" actually appears first.

Adams, in his 1879 ON BOARD THE ROCKET, describes some of the chanteys he heard circa 1850s. It is one of the first books to present chanteys WITH musical notation (albeit with some irregularities). Among them is "Knock a Man Down," but NOT "Blow the Man Down." ...Adams noted just the first [verse], but he goes on to say that on that pattern, one "can wish he was in every known port in the world, to whose name he can find a rhyme." ... So, here is THE classic chantey lyric paradigm, that goes back to the earliest documented samples of chanteys' predecessors, the cotton-stowing songs of Mobile Bay. And, accordingly, the first verse here is about that. So, "Knock a man Down" has the earmarks of an African-American "chant" from the early days. [in the verse style/content] [interpretation]

Adam's notation of this chantey was reproduced, fixed up, in Luce's 1883 collection NAVAL SONGS. Elsewhere in that collection, Luce also includes an item called "BLACK BALL. 'Chanty' Song. Sung in the merchant service in heavy-hauling." Funny, he makes no comparison between the two songs. Perhaps this was because the melody of the latter was quite a bit curvier and had a completely different text -- the "Black Ball Line" theme. ...

What this shows is that, at that time, "Blow the Man Down" was certainly not a "famous" one in the contemporary sense. However, in LA Smith's book from 1888, she does mention "Blow the Man Down" by name, just not with a big hullabaloo.

Back to "Knock a Man Down" -- it appears again in 1914 in Cecil Sharp's chantey collection. He got it from John Short. ...

I find the "blow the man down" chorus with the common lyric variations of that chantey to be incongruous, inspiring me to believe that BTMD is the result of grafting some text upon a previously existing form.

So that's part of it. It's hard to lay out the musical analysis and hunch-y parts of it.

On the other hand, I don't see any proof that KAMD and BTMD are variants and which would make my interpretation wrong.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 07:42 AM

Well, just when I am beginning to think that I'm heading into the "doldrums",

"doldrums |ˈdōldrəmz; ˈdäl-; ˈdôl-|
plural noun ( the doldrums)
low spirits; a feeling of boredom or depression : color catalogs will rid you of February doldrums.
• a period of inactivity or a state of stagnation : the mortgage market has been in the doldrums for three years.
• an equatorial region of the Atlantic Ocean with calms, sudden storms, and light unpredictable winds.
ORIGIN late 18th cent. (as doldrum [dull, sluggish person] ): perhaps from dull , on the pattern of tantrums." [all of the above!]

there happens some good wind in the sails. Thanks, Gibb. I finished the day yesterday not being clear about where I was heading next. I'm still not clear this morning, but my Grandpa used to say, "We don't know where we're bound, but we're on our way!" I definitely feel like we're moving.   

I really appreciate you using this thread to present some of your thinking on these matters. It continues to help me clarify my own very *beginning* thoughts about these songs and their history. My ongoing project here is to try to imagine, within the bounds of historical context, what shanties *might* have been sung on board the "Julia Ann" in her voyages from San Francisco to Sydney in 1853-1854.

And perhaps it's time to clarify why I'm interested in the "Julia Ann" and in Captain B.F. Pond. Benjamin Franklin Pond was another of my great-grandfathers. He was one of my mother's grandfathers, the other being George Edward Semple who came over from Ireland in 1849, that I mentioned earlier. This is why I happen to have a copy of Pond's type-written "Autobiography". I got it from my own Grandpa, who was his son.

I'm not interested in focusing this thread on me in a personal way. But, I do have a personal interest in trying to reconstruct the history of these voyages and in trying to imagine what kinds of work songs were sung on them.

Gibb, I like your definition of a shanty/chanty [this sounds a bit too much like something an ice-fisherman would be singing to himself as he sits in his little shelter doing whatever it is these folks do in such a place - not knowing anything about such things myself]. You say: "that its core identity is a tune (roughly) and a chorus phrase". And then you say: " the form the chanties take, at a certain early period, at least, is something that I think emerged from African-American work song style". It is obvious that a lot of work has gone into the making of these two theories. I find them to be very clear and helpful points of orientation for my thinking on this. I also like your suggestion that you like the "term "African-American" in this case because it has the possibility of being inclusive of U.S. and Caribbean Black expressions, i.e. "American" as the Americas, the New World...and the idea that people of African heritage, having come to the New World, created a form of expression that was both based in African practices and also had an essential element of European culture to it".

My categories have been feeling clumsy and blurred and your definitions feel like a lifting of some fog.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 08:47 AM

&qI am intrigued by the possibility raised in Gibb's comments that a later category, namely "sea chanties" applied to all of the work songs on board a ship and even for the loading and unloading of a ship, may have obscured real differences in origin, time and location for the different kinds of work songs. I know it's debatable, but when did these work songs begin to be called "chanties"? And when was this label applied to everything being sung on board ship except the "forebitters" or "entertainment songs"? Captain Lowe, who went to sea in 1842, talks about the "chantey men", but his first reference is to the "hoosiers" in New Orleans and Mobile stowing cotton "and in the summer sailing in the packet ships".   

http://books.google.com/books?id=j-JE7K-dE_sC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Captain+Charles+P.+Low&cd=1#v=onepage=chantey%20men&f=fal

I think that it is often the case, at least in my experience of academia, that later categories obscure earlier realities, and the categories take on a "misplaced concreteness" that gets substituted for earlier discrete particularities and details and real differences. What I would call Gibb's "functional" understanding of chanties makes some real distinctions between the "halyard" work songs and the "short drag", "capstan", and "pumping" work songs. Only later were they all lumped together as "chanties". He seems to me to be suggesting that "chanties, proper" were the "halyard" work songs. And he's making a very strong case for their origin: the African American work song.

I am finding these distinctions to be very helpful in rethinking this whole "genre" called "sea chanties". And, yes, I am also convinced that they were more originally "chants" than "shants", so I am switching my terminology to "chanties".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 09:14 AM

Jphn-

Good points. The earliest work songs called "chanties" do appear to be the stevedore songs from the Gulf Coast. And once they went to sea and were adapted for the work there, sailors probably still referred to them as "chanties" but they certainly pronounced the word as "shanties" at sea or on shore, as "ch" would have been pronounced in Gulf Coast creole.

C. Fox Smith in the introduction of A Book of Shanties (1927) derided the practice of calling the nautical work songs "sea shanties" as superfluous because she was not aware of any "land shanties." But maybe if she had given it some more thought, and had access to the Low, Nordhoff and Whidden books, she would have come to a different conclusion.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 09:57 AM

Charley, I don't have access to C. Fox Smith's book A BOOK OF SHANTIES. I would be interested in seeing what she had to say about "sea shanties" and "land shanties". Could you put some of that Introduction up on this thread? Thanks.

Your point on pronunciation is well-taken. And I suspect that even when these work songs were first labeled as "chants" that this was a word/category that was not indigenous to the realm of sea labor. It almost sounds like something from a liturgical context! I suppose that "sea-going work songs" is a bit awkward and I don't want to get bogged down in terminology.   My interest is in how these categorizations may skew our understanding of real differences and how these things evolved.

And of course I am always looking for ways to establish earlier datings for these songs. I think that Gibb's suggestions may point in that direction.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 12:15 PM

John-

Lord knows I have enough C. Fox Smith books within arm's reach to keep this room warm for the rest of the winter!

The relevant quote you ask for from Smith, A BOOK OF SHANTIES, p. 8:

"Everywhere one goes nowadays (1927) one hears shanties -- or, as it appears to be, for some inexplicable reason, customary to call them 'sea shanties.' I have yet to hear a land shanty; and as for the air shanty, it is still on the knees of the gods, and like, 'pace' Mr. Kipling in 'With the Night Mail,' to remain there."

What is more curious to me is why in Smith's discussion of the origin of the term shanty/chantie she adamantly ignores the Gulf Coast stevedore experience. It's even more curious because one of the shanties she collected was "Roll the Cotton Down" and she certainly knew what port it was associated with. The answer, sadly, may have more to do with her ardent dismissal of what she described as "negro" or "nigger" origin theories for shanties. With the exception of some individual Black sailors that she personally knew and respected, Smith's attitude toward Blacks in general was thoroughly racist. Her attitude about Asians was the same.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 02:59 PM

"Roll the Cotton Down" is a hybrid, probably partly from minstrel shows and partly from work songs heard from river steamboat men and workers in ports from the Carolinas on the East coast to the ports of the Gulf Coast from Florida to Texas.
There are many versions of the chanty, one in Hugill mentions New Orleans; Galveston and Beaufort also were important Gulf ports.
Mobile's two syllable name works well in these songs.
Much of the work of baling cotton was done along navigable rivers with steamboat transport, and it was in them that much cotton was "rolled down."
Mobile was just one of the Gulf ports; it just happens to be the one mentioned in the chanty versions heard by Smith. She wondered why it was the port mentioned; perhaps it was because that part of Mobile at sea level was notorious for booze, easy women and lack of control, and because of its ease of use in the chantys.

Smith's attitude towards Blacks was that of most white people of that time; sometime pick up the famous 11th edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica and read the entries on Negroes and African blacks.
They are depicted as lower in intelligence, prone to fighting, but some proficiency in music. This attitude was taught in schools as well as being the common belief of the white general public.
One must accept her attitude as that prevalent in her time.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 03:38 PM

Q-

What you say about "Smith's attitude towards Blacks" certainly rings true. It's also evident to me that her attitude blinded her to the major contribution that the Gulf Port Black stevedores made to our inventory of shanties. Here's some more of what she had to say in A BOOK OF SHANTIES, p. 12:

"The usual arguement put forward in favour of the negroid derivation (of shanties) is the structure typical of the shanty-- the solo part with regularly recurring refrain, as in

'Whiskey is the life of man --
Whiskey, Johnie!'

which, incidentally, dates back, according to some authorities, some four centuries; that is, before Sir John Hawkins had laid the foundation stone of the trade in black ivory and hence of the negro population in the West Indies!

This structure, we are told, is precisely that found in negro songs, both on the plantations of the New World and in the black man's native continent. No doubt it is -- only, unfortunately for the convincingness of the theory, it is also typical of practically every kind of primitive verse form in the world...That is not to say that many of the shanties are not definitely 'nigger.' It would be strange if they were not: for, as it happens, a considerable number of those which survive belong to the mid-nineteenth century, when a flood of nigger minstrelry had poured over the land, and it was by no means necessary to go to the West Indies to find it."

Again, my major point is that Smith should have known more about the role of Black stevedores in the Gulf Port area in generating what we know as shanties (prior to the popularity of minstrel singing), and that her racism evidently blinded her to that realization.

It's also true and well-documented that there were White stevedores at work in the Gulf Ports, and they certainly played a major role by adopting the Black stevedore work chants and later adapting them to work at sea.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 04:11 PM

New Orleans had fights among the stevedores; at different times, southern Europeans, Irish, and later Blacks became dominant on the docks.

Why should Smith have known more about the role of black stevedores?
Even in my somewhat later time, Whites in Gulf cities did not associate socially with Blacks and dealt only with those in servant or business jobs.
On the docks the White bosses would have run her off or called the police.
The Black dock workers lived and worked in a segregated environment.
Catfish Row in "Porgy" (the book, not the opera) was fictional, but very close to the truth.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:47 PM

Hi John,

Lots of fun in the twists and turns of this thread!

And I suspect that even when these work songs were first labeled as "chants" that this was a word/category that was not indigenous to the realm of sea labor. It almost sounds like something from a liturgical context!

I've not pursued it very far, by my attempt at sorting the term might include investigating the term "chaunt". See this thread for what I mean:

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=125224#2771310

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 10:07 PM

Thanks for the link, Gibb. I have been so caught up in this project that I haven't been paying very much attention to the rest of Mudcat. I'll catch up tomorrow. And then there are all of those other threads on chanteys/shanties at the top of the thread that I have been unable to find on the Mudcat search machine! As my sweet wife would say: "Yikes!" No wonder I keep re-inventing the wheel and rolling off the deep end. Man-yana.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 07:58 AM

Well, I've now read the other thread on "Shanty or Chantey?", which I highly recommend here:

thread.cfm?threadid=125224&messages=90

And I especially recommend this note from Gibb posted there as another good summary of some of his thinking on chantey forms and origins:

thread.cfm?threadid=125224&messages=90#2771153

And, honestly, I had not read Kenall's note when I said what I said above:

thread.cfm?threadid=125224&messages=90#2771851

I was also glad to find the note from Q with the reference to "Across the briny ocean" from Nordhoff, which I had missed:

thread.cfm?threadid=125224&messages=90#2771869

and one of the many places from Nordhoff himself:

http://books.google.com/books?id=TGFGAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA70&dq=%22Across+the+briny+ocean%22&cd=10#v=onepage&q=%22Across%20the%20br

I also liked this note from Gibb because he conveniently lists a lot of dated references:

thread.cfm?threadid=125224&messages=90#2772035

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 12:05 PM

I want to shift my attention to what Gibb has called "chanteys, proper", the "halyard" chanteys. Gibb has argued that these chanteys are a product of African-American culture, and that they originated as or were based on "work songs" from within that culture.

The importance of this for my purposes is that this may give us some kind of time marker. I want to explore this possibility in relationship to my my project of trying to imagine what chanteys may have been used on the "Julia Ann" between 1853 and 1855. Were any of these halyard chanteys well enough established and known to have made it out to San Francisco by 1853, or further out to Sydney by then?   I think that the chances are pretty good that some of them were there.

Starting (over) with and limiting myself to these halyard chanteys and hauling songs (for now), I would like to explore the possibility of developing some sets of criteria and arguments that might be used to suggest some likely candidates for the "Julia Ann".

My knowledge of things nautical is very limited. I have read the different descriptions of these nautical work songs and have only a beginner's grasp of their functions and differences. I am going to put up my list of "Hauling & Halyard Chanteys", realizing that a "halyard" chantey is a sub-category of a "hauling" chantey (at least according to Hugill, p. 26/'61). Hugill refers to a number of chanteys in his book at simply "hauling" songs. I including these "hauling songs" with the assumption that they fall into the same general category of being products of African American culture as the halyards.   This is why I am calling this list "Hauling & Halyard Chanteys".

I welcome any and all corrections to my list and to my understanding of these categories.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 12:10 PM

Here is my list:

Hauling & Halyard Chanteys

"My Dollar And A Half A Day"/"Lowlands" c
"Walk Me Along, Johnny" / "General Taylor" c
"Mr. Stormalong"
"Yankee John, Stormalong"
"Stormy Along, John"
"'Way Stormalong John"
"Stormalong, Lads, Stormy"
"A Long Time Ago" (a) / "In Frisco Bay" [h]
"Goodbye, My Love, Goodbye"
"Roll The Old Chariot"
"Roll The Cotton Down"
"Roll The Woodpile Down"
"Sally Brown" (b) (c) (d) c
"Rolling Home By The Silvery Moon" (later)
"Knock A Man Down"
"Huckleberry Picking" / "We'll Ranzo Ray"
"Hilo, Johnny Brown"
"Shallow Brown"
"The Gal With the Blue Dress On"
"John, Come Tell Us As We Haul Away"/ "Mobile Bay" c
"Gimme My Banjo" [h]
"Run, Let The Bullgine Run"
"Walk Along My Rosie"
"Coal Black Rosie"
"Bunch O Roses"
"Way, Me Susiana" [h] c
"Round The Corner Sally"
"Sister Susan"/"Shinbone Al"
"Walkalong, Miss Susiana Brown"
"Dixie Land" / "Sing A Song, Blow-Along O!"
"Bully In The Alley"
"Fire Maringo" c
"Blow Boys, Blow"
"One More Day"
"Yankee Dollar"
"Poor Old Man" / "Dead Horse"
"John Cherokee" (Colcord)
"Hilo Come Down Below" (Bullen)
"The Bully Boat"/"Ranzo Ray" (a) (Sharp)
"Little Sally Racket" (Laura Smith)
"Cheerily, Men"
"Tommy's Gone Away" (c Sharp)
"Whisky Johnny"
"Billy Riley"
"Hello, Somebody"
"High O, Come Roll Me Over"
"Where Am I to Go, M'Johnnies"
"Roll, Boys, Roll"
"Ranzo Ray" (c)
"Hello Somebody"
"Can't Ye Hilo?"
"John Kanaka"
"Haul 'er Away" (a) [h]
"Haul Away, Boys, Haul Away"
"Walkalong, My Rosie"
"Do Let Me Lone, Susan"
"Sing Sally O" (b)
"Essequibo River"
"Dan Dan"
"Hilonday" L. Smith
"Pay Me the Money Down" [h]
"Walkalong You Sally Brown"
"Hilo Boys Hilo"
"Tiddy High O"
"Heave Away Boys, Heave Away" (b) c
"Sister Susan (Shinbone Al)" [h]
"Eki Dumah" [h]
"Miss Lucy Loo" [h]
"Heave Away Boys, Heave Away" (a) c
"Tommy's on the Tops'l yard"
"Haul 'er Away" (b)/ "Nancy Fanana"
"Good Morning Ladies All" (b) c (Olmstead)
"Won't Ye Go My Way?" [h]
"Tom's Gone To Hilo"
"Hanging Johnny"
"So Early In The Morning" (a) / "Bottle O"
"So Handy, Me Boys"
"Golden Chariot" (Doerflinger)
"Shanandore" (Bullen) & "Shanadar" (Sharp)
"Leave Her, Johnny"
"Seraphina"
"Baltimore"
"Across The Western Ocean"
"Hurrah, Sing Fare Ye Well" [h]
"Hoorah For The Blackball Line"
"Lower The Boat Down" (Colcord)
"A Hundred Years Ago" (a) (b)/ "'Tis Time For Us To Go"

"Hieland Laddie" c [stamp 'n go]
"Rise Me Up from Down Below" [stamp 'n go]
"Drunken Sailor" [stamp 'n go/hand over hand]
"Johnny, Come Along" [stamp 'n go]
"John Dameray" / "Johnny Come Down The Backstay" [stamp 'n go]
"Boney" / "John Francois"   [short haul & halyards]
---
A number of these chanteys were used for multiple purposes.
c = cotton stowing/screwing
[h] = "hauling" (Hugill)
(a) (b) (c) = different versions in Hugill '61

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 04:09 PM

Here are a few corrections:

"Roll The Cotton Down" needs a "c" for having do with cotton!

"Sally Brown" versions (b) & (c) - there is no (d), and it doesn't have anything to do with cotton

"Shallow Brown" version (d) has to do with cotton (according to Hugill)

I have listed "Sister Susan" / "Shinbone Al" twice

"(Olmstead)" should come after "Nancy Fanana" instead of "Good Morning Ladies All"

Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:34 PM

Thanks, Gibb. However, I believe your date of "circa 1850s" is optimistic. On p. 205, Adams reports his meeting with a pseudonymous "Captain Blowhard," who tells him of his service in the Civil War.

That would put Adams's voyage no earlier than late 1865.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 08:34 PM

John-

I don't see "Bully in the Alley" on your list as a halyard shanty from the West Indies and it should be there.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 09:16 PM

Thanks, Charlie. However, "Bully In The Alley" is there, between "Dixie Land" and "Fire Maringo", just about half way down.

I did manage to drop another one though, from "Old Smith" of Tobago, called "Lowlands, Low", which is different from the other "Lowlands" songs. It is on pages 70-71 of the 1961 edition of Hugill's SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS.

Since my list has evolved over the past several days, it has lost all inherent logic that it might have once had. It began with pulling the "halyard/hauling" songs from my earlier list and from Gibb's listing of chanteys from Hugill's Caribbean informants. Then I went back and added all of the other "halyard/hauling" songs given by Hugill and others from his book. And along the way there was some degree of shuffling.

The ordering of this list of "halyard/hauling" chanteys has no particular significance. Perhaps I've been going through Hugill too much. I have definitely found that *his* ordering leaves a lot to be desired! I've worn out the index.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 09:30 PM

John,

The strange ordering of Hugill's text is, strangely, one things that led me to "study" it in the first place. I found it very difficult to follow the layout when looking for individual pieces, and realized that one has to read it ALL first! Although it leaves MUCH to be desired, as you say, it also serves to draw informed connections between certain chanties that tends to get erased by the often incidental filing of them as "halyard," "capstan" etc by other collectors.

Gibb

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 09:36 PM

Thanks, Lighter!

I wonder where I got "1850s" from (???) Good call.

Gibb

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 11:01 PM

The job-function categories also leave something to be desired. One needs no further proof than the fact that certain chanties were used for more than one job. A lot depends on the speed of the job at that time. For instance, most halyard chanties have two "pulls" per each refrain. And chanties with just one pull often get filed separately under the category of "short drag" chanties. However, it seems that chanties with one pull –perhaps for example "Sally Racket"-- could also be used at halyards, too. It would just mean that the pace would go faster (or for a lighter hoist, i.e. one of the higher yards). So whether one did one pull per refrain at a fast pace, or two pulls at a slower pace, it would amount to a comparable number of "pulls per minute."

Still, most halyard chanties had two pulls. I imagine these as the "proper" "chanties" because I think that was probably the same form as for cotton-screwing. The form was:

(Solo) Lift him up and carry him along
(Refrain) FIRE maringo, FIRE away
(Solo) Stow him down where he belong
(Refrain) FIRE maringo, FIRE away

The turn of the screws, or the fall of the pick ax, or the heaving of coal (if that's what firemen did!)…i.e. the forceful action that needed coordinating, occurred on the capitalized syllables. The key trait to the form was the call and response and these moments of action.

If one thinks with that criterion in mind, one can see across the job-function categories. I will explain.

Take "Hieland Laddie" as a cotton stowing chant:

(Solo) Was ya never down in New York Town?
(Refrain) BONnie laddie, HIElan laddie
(Solo)Walking Broadway up n down?
(Refrain) BONnie hielan LADdie o

We know the Scots song "Hieland Laddie" as a march – though I'm not sure when it first came that way. In any case, it is as a march that it is used, as a walkaway or capstan chanty. However, it could not have been like a march when the Mobile Bay gents used it to screw cotton – that's way too fast. You can see from my illustration, however, how it could be used as a screw/haul type work song.

What's more interesting is the chorus (by which I mean "grand chorus") of some of these chanties. Some have what I want to call a "mock" chorus. Contained within the chorus are still the "pull" phrases. That means, people doing work at the screws or halyards could still use these there…even if in later days their choruses suggest they were being used for capstan or windlass. So the extended chorus, which everybody sings, for "Hieland Laddie" goes:

Way, hey, and away we go
BONnie Laddie, HIElan Laddie
Way hey and away we go
BONnie hielan LADdie o

You've got the same phenomenon in "South Australia," in "Santiana," and perhaps in "Goodbye Fare Ye Well." So one thing not to do is separate "South Australia," for example, from the "proper" chanties category, since, although it is associated with heaving tasks, its form is related to the halyard ones. Also note how, although "Blow the Man Down" is clearly ascribed to halyards, it has been sung with a grand chorus too, of the likes of

(All) Blow the man up, bullies, Blow the man down
WAY hey BLOW the man down, etc…

The time points for pulls are still there. (This inclusion of a grand chorus in BTMD would appear as something "wrong" that some current performers do – similar to the way revival singers have added a mock chorus to "Bulley in the Alley." However, the "Knock a Man Down" in Cecil Sharp's collection has such a chorus.)

A lot of these chanties with the mock chorus appear well suited to windlass (pump style). The halyard and windlass chanties are closely related, if not interchangeable. So I would keep an eye towards both of them.

As a point of distinction from the mock chorus chanties, there are the "hooraw chorus" type. They have "true" choruses – and ones that don't mark any time points. The "hooraw chorus" type is appropriate ~only~ to capstan work (for which it was usually pulled in from other sources, like marches) and would not work for halyards/screwing. For instance:

Gwine to run all night, gwine to run all day…

Or

Hurrah, hurrah, for the gals o' Dub-a-lin Town…

No pulls.

Versus "South Australia":

Heave away you rollin king
HEAVE away, HEAVE away

To summarize:

Halyard chanty (and probably cotton screwing chant) form:

Call-response-call-response. Clear "pull points" in the response.


Windlass chanty form:

Call-response-call-response, often with additional mock chorus that also contains "pull points." In this case, the "pull points" coincide, instead, with heaves on the pump handles.


Capstan chanty form:

1) Windlass chantey form (perhaps borrowed)
or
2) Long solo, long chorus (ex. The Limejuice Ship), as in many ballads and marches.
3) Call-response-call-response + long chorus (ex. Sacramento). It is debatable, to my mind, whether the call and response part of this form takes from halyard form or whether it is just coincidence. I lean towards the latter (and an example would be "A Rovin'", where the short, "mark well what I do say" does not strike me as a "pulling" refrain). The long form of "Roll the Cotton Down" is a good example of the transformation of a clearly for-halyards chanty into a clearly for-capstan one.

Lastly, some of the really slow cotton screwing type songs seem to have been adapted for slow capstan work. Even though their form looks like it would be well suited for (heavy) "2 pull" work, these songs (ex. "Lowlands"/$1.50) were much to slow to work in hoisting a yard. Due to their slow tempo and rubato rhythm, the old "pull points" cease to be emphasized at the capstan.

Gibb

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 10:52 AM

Gibb-

Well put, Omph!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 11:36 AM

Gibb, your comments on the "windless chanty form" were very helpful in finally getting me to focus on "the form" of these songs. It also helps me understand how the same song shifts from one job to another. I have gone back and looked at the "windless" chanties in Hugill - and yes, you are right, his layout does force one to look at the relationships among chanties differently than one would if you just follow categories like "capstan", "halyard", etc. - and here is what I've come up with in this context. A few are admittedly a stretch, but if you refer back to the possible African-American songs that may underlie them you can see how they might have evolved. And for Charlie's sake, as well as everyone else's, they are alphabetical this time.

Across the Rockies

A-Rovin' (?)

Billy Boy

Clear the Track, Let the Bullgine Run

Doodle, Let Me Go

Fire Down Below (a)(b)(c)(e)

Goodbye, Fare Ye Well

Heave Away, Cheerily O!

Heave Away, Me Johnnies / We're All Bound to Go (a)

Hooker John

Jamboree (cf. G. Conway's version from Sharp)

Leave Her, Johnny, Leave Her

Lowlands Away

Miss Lucy Long (cf. "O Take Your Time Miss Lucy Long")

Mr. Stormalong

Only One More Day

Poor Lucy Anna

Rio Grande

Roller Bowler (cf, "Ladies in the Parlour")

Santiana

- Round the Bay of Mexico

Shenandoah

South Australia

- The Codfish Shanty

Southern Ladies (fr. Sharp)

Ten Stone

How did I do? Also, I should add "Abel Brown the Sailor" as a halyard chanty, according to Hugill on pages 440-442/'61.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 09:16 PM

Yep. That should be "windlass".   No wonder this old ship is not moving! Windless???? This work is supposed to stave off the dementia. But at least I got my ABC's right. WINDLASS it is.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 09:53 PM

John-

Well, I'm happy that this thread hasn't entered the doldrums.

And, yes, I love alpha lists!

I've always thought of "Ol' Moke Pickin' on a Banjo" as a capstan shanty.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 10:00 PM

Yep, "Ol' Moke" is an example of what I want to call the "hooraw chorus form," and to my mind, too, it is only a capstan chantey.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 11:01 PM

Taking John's list(s), I have done some sorting based on the form/style as I see it. My categories ignore what any writers have said the function of the chanties were. I am basing them on my own analysis and experience singing them only. Other opinions welcome! Oh, and I'm not adding (many) titles, just sorting John's.

1. Call-response-call-response form (with the 2 "pull points" per response):

"Yankee John, Stormalong"
"Stormy Along, John"
"'Way Stormalong John"
"Stormalong, Lads, Stormy"
"A Long Time Ago"
"Goodbye, My Love, Goodbye"
"Roll The Cotton Down"
"Roll The Woodpile Down"
"Sally Brown"
"Knock A Man Down"
"Huckleberry Picking" / "We'll Ranzo Ray"
"Hilo, Johnny Brown"
"The Gal With the Blue Dress On"
"John, Come Tell Us As We Haul Away"/ "Mobile Bay"
"Gimme My Banjo"
"Run, Let The Bullgine Run"
"Walk Along My Rosie"
"Coal Black Rosie"
"Bunch O Roses"
"Way, Me Susiana"
"Round The Corner Sally"
"Sister Susan"/"Shinbone Al"
"Walkalong, Miss Susiana Brown"
"Dixie Land" / "Sing A Song, Blow-Along O!"
"Bully In The Alley"
"Fire Maringo"
"Blow Boys, Blow"
"Poor Old Man" / "Dead Horse"
"John Cherokee" (Colcord)
"Hilo Come Down Below" (Bullen)
"The Bully Boat"/"Ranzo Ray" (a) (Sharp)
"Tommy's Gone Away" (c Sharp)
"Whisky Johnny"
"Billy Riley"
"Hello, Somebody"
"High O, Come Roll Me Over"
"Where Am I to Go, M'Johnnies"
"Roll, Boys, Roll"
"Ranzo Ray" (c)
"Hello Somebody"
"Can't Ye Hilo?"
"John Kanaka"
"Haul 'er Away" (a)
"Haul Away, Boys, Haul Away"
"Walkalong, My Rosie"
"Do Let Me Lone, Susan"
"Sing Sally O" (b)
"Essequibo River"
"Hilonday" L. Smith
"Pay Me the Money Down"
"Walkalong You Sally Brown"
"Hilo Boys Hilo"
"Tiddy High O"
"Heave Away Boys, Heave Away" (b)
"Sister Susan (Shinbone Al)"
"Miss Lucy Loo"
"Heave Away Boys, Heave Away" (a)
"Tommy's on the Tops'l yard"
"Good Morning Ladies All" (b)
"Won't Ye Go My Way?"
"Tom's Gone To Hilo"
"Hanging Johnny"
"So Early In The Morning" (a) / "Bottle O"
"So Handy, Me Boys"
"Leave Her, Johnny"
"Across The Western Ocean"
Across the Rockies
"Hurrah, Sing Fare Ye Well"
"Hoorah For The Blackball Line"
"Lower The Boat Down" (Colcord)
"A Hundred Years Ago" (a) (b)/ "'Tis Time For Us To Go"
Poor Lucy Anna
Round the Bay of Mexico
Doodle, Let Me Go

SUBCATEGORY - These have the same form, and they probably would have worked for cotton-screwing as such, but aboard ship they are typically too slow for halyards. So, I reason, they were adopted for slow, a-rhythmic tramps around the capstan. Their shipboard function, however, does not keep them from being relatives of the others. The same process could happen to any other the above if rendered very slowly. And even the ones in this category could be sped up (e.g. the popular fast, halyards version of Shallow Brown):

Southern Ladies (fr. Sharp)
My Dollar And A Half A Day"/"Lowlands"
"Mr. Stormalong"
"Shallow Brown"
Shenandoah (and variations)

SUBCATEGORY - Here's one that strikes me (a hunch) as something fitting the form but being a creation of later days:

"Serafina"

SUBCATEGORY - And here are two that have a slight irregularity in the form, but which nonetheless could have worked just fine for cotton-screwing. I hypothesize that because they had that irregularity in timing, they could cause slight confusion at halyards, so they were used for capstan, where the timing didn't matter:

"Good Morning Ladies All" (a)
"Stormy Along, John"

This "Category 1" could be broken down further. I think subgroups would cohere that would show such possible groupings as: Southern States songs; Caribbean songs; earlier songs; later songs based in the paradigm of the earlier songs; etc.

In this category the songs are all those that I feel are practically unmistakable as chanties (as opposed to another genre). And the vast majority ("Serafina" might be an exception) seem to me to have a strong African-American connection.

I'll do other categories later.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 11:33 AM

To category 1 I'd add:
Fire Down Below (a-b-c)
Heave Away my Johnnies (cf. relation to "slave song" about Henry Clay)

And an example of songs in the Cat. 1 pattern but which has just one customary pull are "Won't Ye Go My Way" and "Hilonday." As I come across others, I might flesh out a subcategory there.

Next category...

2. Call-response-call-response plus mock chorus. The "mock chorus" is structured and timed just like the call-response section, and the only reasons it appears as a chorus are 1) Everyone sings together 2)The lyrics repeat each time round:

Leave her Johnny
Clear the Track, Let the Bullgine Run
Goodbye, Fare Ye Well
Heave Away, Cheerily O! [sort of]
Only One More Day
Rio Grande
Santiana
South Australia
The Codfish Shanty
"Walk Me Along, Johnny" / "General Taylor"
"Hieland Laddie"

Because of their chorus, these have all been used for continuous tasks, windlass or capstan. However, they are modified arrangements of the same thing that works for halyards/cotton-screwing. What works for halyards is much more limiting than what works for the heaving tasks (pumping, windlass, capstan). That underscores the distinctiveness or exclusivity of those types of work songs.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 01:16 PM

Gibb, I appreciate your re-ordering. Please keep at it. I am finding it very helpful. I've been thinking about the "call-response" work song form and it's African American context. I am assuming that roughly speaking, we are talking about a time period for the "emergence" of the chanties proper between about 1810 and 1860, a period of only 50 years. It is likely that at least some of the "work songs" that form the basis for the chanties are much older and even go back into the 1700's. Or, at least the call/response form probably predates the 1800's.

It seems to me that when we are talking about "African American work songs" in the first half of the 19th century, and speaking about a region that runs roughly from Baltimore down the east coast and around the Gulf to Galveston, and goes south and east to include the Caribbean and much of South America on down to Brazil and beyond, we are talking about *slave* songs. I realize that there were free Blacks in all of these areas, but the dominant culture was a slave culture. I believe I remember reading that in South Carolina, there was no such thing, legally, as a "free" Black person, which caused some problems for free Black sailors who happened to land there.

A slave culture means that these African American laborers were not working for themselves, and that they had little or no choice about where they worked, when they worked, or what kind of work they did. We've already mentioned that some plantation owners "leased" out their slaves to work on board ships during the off seasons so they wouldn't have to feed them and so they would still be economically viable and valuable. These Black laborers worked to make the White man wealthy. The work songs they sang helped them survive this situation. See here the sections on the transAtlantic slave trade, slavery in the US and the abolitionist movements:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery

As Q has mentioned, there were White "hoosiers" as well as Black ones working the cotton stowing jobs in the Gulf Ports. In those days there was apparently little problem with White guys picking up and using Black songs. And thus the shore work songs became sea-going work songs and evolved into the "chanties, proper", carried there by both Blacks and Whites.

In trying to imagine something about the call-response work song in the context of African American slave culture, I realized that there was a somewhat contemporary example of how this might have worked and sounded. I say "somewhat contemporary" because it seems that the practice I want to mention is probably no longer a live tradition. But it was so as recently as the 1960s. I am referring to the African American experience of prison labor in the South, what is popularly known as "the chain gang".

African Americans in the Southern prison systems in much of the last (20th) century were little better than slaves. And they used call/response work songs in much the same way that the earlier plantation and riverboat landing slaves did. There is a wonderful book on this subject by Bruce Jackson called WAKE UP DEAD MAN - HARD LABOR AND SOUTHERN BLUES (University of Georgia, 1972). And there is a CD that goes with this called "Wake Up Dead Man - Black Convict Worksongs From Texas Prisons" (Rounder) which has some of the recordings that Jackson made back in the 1960's that form the basis of his book. Listening to these convict work songs, I was able to hear the form of call/response that Gibb has been talking about. It seems that there is a fairly direct line of descent here from the pre-Civil War plantation and and river slave songs down to the cotton-chopping, wood-cutting, and hammer songs of the prison chain gangs. And somewhere along in there, this kind of song went to sea.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 02:10 PM

Gibb-

I do love alpha sorted lists, as I pointed out in a PM to John, for helping to figure out what is missing or eliminating duplications. And it's relatively easy to do that in Word, and copy and paste back to here.

Cheerily,
Charlie Ipcar

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 04:41 PM

I wanted to share a passage from Bruce Jackson's liner notes for his CD "Wake Up Dead Man". He says,

"The black convict worksong survived into the early 1960s because the southern penitentiary was a copy of the mid-19th century plantation (which itself was probably based on African models - there had been nothing like it in British agricultural tradition). The songs lasted until prison reform made them anachronistic. The overt brutality in the fields ended and slow workers were no longer tortured. Heavy machinery became more economical than large labor forces, so many of the field inmates were reassigned to inside jobs and training programs. Younger blacks saw the songs as holdovers from slavery and Uncle Tom days and refused to join the older black men in performing them. Finally, integration, which put white and black inmates in the same work groups, stopped the songs entirely: the whites wouldn't and couldn't do them, and the nature of the work was such that if every one in a group didn't work in time, no one could.

The genre never moved back outside prison camps because, with end of non-prison gang labor in the South, there was no occasion for performance; one doesn't sing a worksong in a steel mill and these weren't songs one would sit around and chant at a bar or on the porch. The songs existed only in connection with a harsh set of social conditions, and once those conditions altered significantly, the songs disappeared entirely."

If you go to Amazon, you can hear some very brief clips from this album. I recommend "Jody", "I'm In The Bottom", "Down the Line", "Hammer Ring", "Fallin' Down", and "Grizzly Bear". Perhaps the first thing that struck me was that these are more like chants than songs. And they go on for a long time! It seems one of the main differences between these songs and chanties is that the work strokes happen all the way through the song. Another characteristic in some of the other songs is that everybody sings everything. But one can still sense the call/response pattern and the timed work strokes.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012A2PPK/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i

It is interesting that these songs died out *because* the whites wouldn't/couldn't sing them with the African Americans, which was exactly the opposite from what apparently happened with the chanties. Also, the younger generation rejected them, again unlike the later generations who sailed toward the end of the 19th century. However, the Industrial Revolution finally triumphed even at sea. The work was no longer there to be done and there was no longer a need for the work song.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 06:07 PM

Thanks for the link, John.

Everyone should listen to Track 15, "Roll 'im on Down" at THIS link :)

http://www.amazon.com/Negro-Work-Songs-and-Calls/dp/B00129PQ8E/ref=pd_sim_dmusic

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:25 AM

Here is Gibb's re-organization of my lists in alphabetical form, with the sub-categories noted and added in. Gibb, I hope I haven't confused anything here or accidentally deleted anything. I would like to dedicate this to the one and only, Charlie Noble.

1. Call-response-call-response form (with the 2 "pull points" per response): [and several sub-categories indicated by [ ], { }, & ( ) & (mock chorus)]*

"Across the Rockies"
"Across The Western Ocean"
"A Hundred Years Ago" (a) (b)/ "'Tis Time For Us To Go"
"A Long Time Ago"

"Billy Riley"
"Blow Boys, Blow"
"Bully In The Alley"
"Bunch O Roses"

"Can't Ye Hilo?"
"Clear the Track, Let the Bullgine Run" (mock chorus)
"Coal Black Rosie"

"Dixie Land" / "Sing A Song, Blow-Along O!"
"Do Let Me Lone, Susan"
"Doodle, Let Me Go"

"Essequibo River"
"Fire Down Below" (a-b-c)
"Fire Maringo"

"Gimme My Banjo"
"Goodbye, Fare Ye Well" (mock chorus)
"Goodbye, My Love, Goodbye"
("Good Morning Ladies All" (a)) cotton-screwing/capstan
"Good Morning Ladies All" (b)

"Hanging Johnny"
"Haul Away, Boys, Haul Away"
"Haul 'er Away" (a)
"Heave Away Boys, Heave Away" (a)
"Heave Away Boys, Heave Away" (b)
"Heave Away, Cheerily O!" [sort of] (mock chorus)
"Heave Away My Johnnies" (cf. relation to "slave song" about Henry Clay)
"Hello, Somebody"
"Hieland Laddie" (mock chorus)
"High O, Come Roll Me Over"
"Hilo Boys Hilo"
"Hilo Come Down Below" (Bullen)
"Hilo, Johnny Brown"
"Hilonday" L. Smith (one pull)
"Hoorah For The Blackball Line"
"Huckleberry Picking" / "We'll Ranzo Ray"
"Hurrah, Sing Fare Ye Well"

"John Cherokee" (Colcord)
"John, Come Tell Us As We Haul Away"/ "Mobile Bay"
"John Kanaka"

"Knock A Man Down"

"Leave Her, Johnny"
"Leave Her, Johnny, Leave Her" (mock chorus)
"Lower The Boat Down" (Colcord)

"Miss Lucy Loo"
["My Dollar And A Half A Day"/"Lowlands"] cotton-stowing/capstan
["Mr. Stormalong"] cotton-stowing/capstan

"Only One More Day" (mock chorus)

"Pay Me the Money Down"
"Poor Lucy Anna"
"Poor Old Man" / "Dead Horse"

"Ranzo Ray" (c)
"Rio Grande" (mock chorus)
"Roll, Boys, Roll"
"Roll The Cotton Down"
"Roll The Woodpile Down"
"Round the Bay of Mexico"
"Round The Corner Sally"
"Run, Let The Bullgine Run"

"Sally Brown"
"Santiana" (mock chorus)
{"Serafina"} perhaps a later chanty
["Shallow Brown"] cotton-stowing/capstan
["Shenandoah" (and variations)] cotton-stowing/capstan
"Sing Sally O" (b)
"Sister Susan"/"Shinbone Al"
"So Early In The Morning" (a) / "Bottle O"
"So Handy, Me Boys"
"South Australia" (mock chorus)
[Southern Ladies (fr. Sharp)] cotton-stowing/captsan
("Stormy Along, John") cotton-screwing/capstan
"Stormalong, Lads, Stormy"

"Tiddy High O"
"Tommy's Gone Away" (Sharp)
"Tommy's on the Tops'l yard"
"Tom's Gone To Hilo"
"The Bully Boat"/"Ranzo Ray" (a) (Sharp)
"The Codfish Shanty" mock chorus
"The Gal With the Blue Dress On"

"Walkalong, Miss Susiana Brown"
"Walk Along My Rosie"
"Walkalong You Sally Brown"
"Walk Me Along, Johnny" / "General Taylor" (mock chorus)
"Way, Me Susiana"
"'Way Stormalong John"
"Where Am I to Go, M'Johnnies"
"Whisky Johnny"
"Won't Ye Go My Way?" (one pull)

"Yankee John, Stormalong"
---
*Subcategories:

[ ] "These have the same form, and they probably would have worked for cotton-screwing as such, but aboard ship they are typically too slow for halyards. So, I reason, they were adopted for slow, a-rhythmic tramps around the capstan."

{ } "something fitting the form but being a creation of later days"

( ) "And here are two that have a slight irregularity in the form, but which nonetheless could have worked just fine for cotton-screwing. I hypothesize that because they had that irregularity in timing, they could cause slight confusion at halyards, so they were used for capstan, where the timing didn't matter."

(mock chorus)   "Call-response-call-response plus mock chorus. The "mock chorus" is structured and timed just like the call-response section, and the only reasons it appears as a chorus are 1) Everyone sings together 2)The lyrics repeat each time round."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 09:21 AM

John-

Thanks for the dedication but "Charley Noble" is only a figment of our collective imagination.

Oh, and to be even more picky with regard to sorted title lists, consider relegating the "A's" and "The's" to the end of the song title separated with a comma.

But here's a more substantive comment. With regard to "Whisky Johnny" there's also the halyard version in Hugill which I know as "Whisky-O" with the grand chorus:

Whiskey-O, Johnny-O,
Rise 'er UP from down be-LOW
Whiskey, whiskey, whiskey-o,
Up a-LOFT this yard must GO
John, rise 'er UP from down be-LOW!

And I'm still trying to figure out where Barry Finn's traditional shanties fit in:

Hard Times in Ol' Virginia
London Julie
Priests and Nuns (pumping shanty)
Roller Bowler
Saltpeter Shanty/Slav Ho

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 12:07 PM

"The Priest and the Nuns" is reported only by Harlow. I have always had the feeling that it was originally a translation from German or French, possibly because of the tune, which also seems untraditional, at least in the English-speaking world and at least to me.

It is also unusual for an English folksong to focus on priests and nuns, especially in Austria.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 01:16 PM

Charley, I think Hugill lists your "Whisky O, Johnny O" as "Rise Me Up From Down Below" (pages 280-281/'61), which he calls a "stamp 'n go" song, and I've listed it as such at the bottom of my first list. Hugill gives "Roller Bowler" as a "capstan" song (pages 347-349/'61). And he says the the "Saltpeter Shanty/Slav Ho" was "used at the capstan" (p. 518/'6). Harlow gives "The Priest and the Nuns" as a pumping chanty, but doesn't say anything about it (pages 166-167). I've been listening to the Lomax recording of the Georgia Sea Island singers of "Hard Time in Ole Virginia" (John Davis & Group). It is a call/response work song and it sounds to me like it's got two pulls.

http://www.amazon.com/Southern-Journey-V-13-Earliest/dp/B0012JG27I/ref=sr_shvl_album_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1267467203&sr=301-2

I can't find much on "London Julie" other than what Barry Finn says, which is that it's in both the Carpenter collection and the Gordon collection. It doesn't sound to me like a hauling song. But I am really new at this business of *listening* for the "pulls".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 03:08 PM

John-

With regard to "London Julie," which I'm very familiar with from doing harmony on Barry's CD, I think the pulls happen as follows:

LONDON JULIE


Well, we took a long loving walk,
A-HA, me London JULIE!
And we had a long, loving talk,
A-HA, me London JULIE!

Full Chorus:

Julianna, Julianna, where do you go?
A-HA, me London JULIE!
Julianna, Julianna, where do you go?
A-HA, me London JULIE!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 03:54 PM

Thanks, Charlie. That's helpful for me.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 05:36 PM

Just going by the sound of it -- at least how it is performed these days-- I'm doubtful that "London Julie" was a halyard chanty. Does the original source say that it was? Sorry, I don't know where that is. However, I would like to be wrong about this because it would expand my notion of a halyard chanty.

And "Whisky O," IMHO, is quite another thing altogether. If it was used as a timed-pull halyard chanty, then it is something rare that doesn't fit the pattern of "Category 1." I'm fond of the idea that it was two timed pulls, followed by a walk-away.

Anyways, my goal in sorting chanties that John listed was just to give examples, not a comprehensive list. Through examples, one can see how (*IF*) a category coheres. I don't think every chanty needs to be put in a category, but from all those examples one can get an idea of what makes them similar.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 06:07 PM

I've wondered (yes, rather idly -- someone more knowledgeable can contribute to this brainstorm!) when historically the need for hoisting yards came into the picture. There is the idea that these "new" "chanties" were adopted in a big way to suit the newer packet ships...and also the fact that they were manned by smaller crews. (Smaller crews meant, for instance, that the guys really had to pace and coordinate their hoisting efforts, whereas huge crews could just grab the fall and march away with it as a walk-away.) To what extent (and how far back) to the task of hoisting yards (square sails) exist before the post-War of 1812 era?

It's clear that, earlier, there were "capstan songs." Those did not coordinate action per se. Rather, they set a manageable pace or just made the work less toilsome.

And there were short-drags -- 1 pull -- though it seems unlikely that these could/would have been used to hoist a yard. They were for tacks/sheets, catting anchor, or the infamous "bowline." But maybe not only?

When Dana talked about "songs for capstan and falls".... do we have any sense which are the hauling ones among these? First: is "fall" restricted in use at all, i.e. for any particular line (e.g. halyard versus sheet)? If so, that would add specificity. Second, my hunch is that, with "Cheerly, Men" as the model, the hauling songs were 1-pull items. I realize that I'm not providing much evidence to go on here, but my "brainstorm" is that what was going on in the brig PILGRIM was some really hard, single pulls...big bursts of force, like you'd get at the end of a "haul away JOE!" The "classic" (arguably cotton-screwing based) double pull chanties are more measured and energy is conserved a bit better, for the long task.

A close reading of Dana's text could give an idea if chanties "as we know them" yet existed in his day.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 06:10 PM

"To what extent (and how far back) DOES the task of hoisting yards (square sails) exist before the post-War of 1812 era?"

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 06:55 PM

The American Journal of Music and Musical Vistor (Feb. 25, 1845), p. 53, gives what may be the earliest ex. of an American shanty printed with its tune. After several verbosely chatty paragraphs typical of the period, the anonymous writer offers "Heaving Anchor. A Sailor Song. Furnished by N. C.," a "lad who, several years since, used to fold our papers" and who has "recently returned from a voyage to Smyrna, up the Mediterranean." The text:

Then walk him up so lively,
Ho, O, heave O,
Then walk him up so lively, hearties,
Ho, O, heave O.

I'm Bonny of the Skylark,
Ho, O, heave O,
Then walk him up so lively, hearties,
Ho, O, heave, O.

I'm going away to leave you,
Ho, O, heave O,
Then walk, &c.


The writer then notes that in "rowing, the words are slightly altered, as follows":

Then walk him up so lively,
Row, Billy, row,
Then walk him up so lively, hearties,
Row, Billy, row.

I'm Bunny of the Skylark,
Row, Billy, row,
Then walk, &c.

I'm going away to leave you,
Row, Billy, row,
I'm going, &c.

Sorry I can't reproduce the modal tune, but it isn't much. Its shape resembles that of "Bounty was a Packet Ship," but I wouldn't say they're clearly related. The solo lines, "Then walk him up so lively, hearties" interestingly fit the meter of Dana's "Heave Away, My Hearty Bullies!" (Plus the word "hearty" appears, FWIW.)

What I think is more important than a possible connection to any of Dana's shanties is the sheer primitiveness of this. Of the various shanties "N.C." presumably heard on his voyage to Smyrna, why would he remember this one? Or to put it another way, if tuneful shanties with interesting lyrics were being sung (like "Rio Grande" and "Shenandoah"), why report only this one? Surely the editor of the magazine would have preferred to print a better song. The magazine appeared several years before the possible "shanty boom" of the California Gold Rush, though that too may mean nothing.

It doesn't pay to overinterpret, but one does get the feeling that
"Ho, O, Heave O" (which almost sounds like a Hebridean waulking song)may be close in form to one of the earliest sea shanties "as we know them," and that Dana's lost shanties may have been not much better (a possible explanation of why he didn't offer any lyrics).

Concerning shanties in general, the writer notes that "On the yard-arm, in a clear air, they compose verses and tunes and sing to their companions. It is to be hoped, that the time is coming, when the sentiment of their songs will be such as the good and virtuous will approve."

"On the yardarm" suggests a bunting shanty. "Paddy Doyle"? We may never know.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:57 PM

Lighter-

Nice to have another early "shanty" added to the archives, with a literary reference.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 10:08 AM

Gibb, with regard to your question about Dana and his "falls" : "When Dana talked about "songs for capstan and falls".... do we have any sense which are the hauling ones among these? First: is "fall" restricted in use at all, i.e. for any particular line (e.g. halyard versus sheet)? If so, that would add specificity", I'm wondering if it would help to look in his other book THE SEAMAN'S FRIEND CONTAINING A TREATISE ON PRACTICAL SEAMANSHIP, etc. I tried reading some of it with regard to "halyards" but immediately got lost. Perhaps someone who is better acquainted with the technical side of this could sort it out and find an answer to your question. If I remember correctly, Dana does not mention any singing, worksongs, or chanties in this book. This fifth edition was published in 1847:

http://books.google.com/books?id=eGVGAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=A+Seaman's+Friend&cd=3#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 10:17 AM

John-

I believe that "falls" are any lines that a sailor would grab on to in order to hoist something, be it a sail, a yard, a lifeboat, or even cargo.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 11:51 AM

Lighter, you say:

"What I think is more important than a possible connection to any of Dana's shanties is the sheer primitiveness of this. Of the various shanties "N.C." presumably heard on his voyage to Smyrna, why would he remember this one? Or to put it another way, if tuneful shanties with interesting lyrics were being sung (like "Rio Grande" and "Shenandoah"), why report only this one? Surely the editor of the magazine would have preferred to print a better song. The magazine appeared several years before the possible "shanty boom" of the California Gold Rush, though that too may mean nothing."

I was thinking about this and it seems to me that there is a "sheer primitiveness" about the call/response work song itself. This really comes through in the southern prison songs I was listening to yesterday. They are quite monotonous and not particularly melodious. They seem almost closer to a chant than a song. Then listening to some of the Georgia Sea Islander "chanties", I had the same feeling. The Bahamian songs seem a bit more "mellower" but this may be due to some of the harmonies. This morning I have been listening to some of the chanties on the list of hauling songs, and I am picking up the same sense of almost monotonous back and forth chanting.

While both the African Americans and the Irish, for example, contributed very "lyrical" tunes for some of these chanties, not all of them have such tunes. Perhaps the form served as something of a limit on the aesthetics of these songs. And while the magazine editors might have preferred more "tuneful shanties with interesting lyrics", the more prosaic examples such as the one you have discovered and the ones from Dana, as well as many of the ones we have from the later collections may well have been what were actually being used.

I appreciate your argument from what I would call "silence". If they are not mentioned maybe/possibly/probably they didn't exist. Or, if they were around, why weren't they mentioned, rather than some of these other more obscure songs. I think this does raise question marks over my project to try to imagine the later-collected songs back into an earlier time frame. And I suppose that to say that an argument from silence can go both ways is not a very strong position to take, but it is also true. Just because they are not mentioned doesn't necessarily mean they weren't there in the 1840's and 1850's. Perhaps the very nature of their monotonous, chant-like qualities worked against them being remarkable as far as those who might record them were concerned.

Treading gingerly on some thin ice, I also wonder whether the mostly "white" travelers - do we have any records at all of accounts of being at sea by non-white travelers or mariners? - would not have either been interested, or perhaps able to note down some of the African American songs. Their ears may not have been dialect-tuned.   Or, as with so many things having to do with white perspectives on non-white issues, they simply didn't "hear" the African American songs. They were audibly "invisible".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 04:27 PM

Now that we have what I would call a working list of chanties to choose from I would like to propose some criteria for suggesting which ones might have been used on the "Julia Ann" between 1853 and 1855. I'm not saying that songs which are not on my/Gibb's list couldn't have been used on those voyages. I will consider some of them later. But first I want to look at these "hauling" work songs. I am theorizing that they emerged as chanties sometime between about 1820 and 1860. I know that this is debatable, so I'm simply using it as a hypothesis.

I also know that there are very few "proof texts" for dating and locating these songs before the 1880s. So I am not trying to "prove" anything. I want to try to establish a "likely" historical context in which to place these songs. I am using "likely" to mean somewhere between "possible" and "probable". In order to build such a context I want to use what I would call multiple categories of multiple, independent attestations.   

I realize that a category of multiple attestation only proves that something is attested to a certain number of times, which may mean that it was "popular" or available or compatible with those who noted it or any number of other things. There are all kinds of things that could determine why a given song shows up in any given number of places. And I am not suggesting any kind of statistical analysis here. I know nothing about that kind of thing. However, if a certain song shows up in a number of independently different places it does tell us that that song was "around", that it existed at the time it was noted, and where it was noted. By looking at this kind of information, we might get some sense of the "spread" of the song, how broadly it was known and used. This could tell us something useful about its historical context at a particular time.

Using only one such category of multiple attestation would only give us one thin slice and not much in the way of depth for a historical context. This is why I want to use multiple categories. I am hoping that the cumulative information my give us some depth over a period of time. I will present my categories in two parts.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 04:32 PM

Categories of Multiple Attestation, Part I

Published Collections - by date of publication. Examples would be Sharp, Terry, Whall, etc. I don't have access to all of these collections, but to many of them and to the contents of others. I don't promise to be a hundred percent thorough, but I will be as comprehensive as possible. How many and which collections contain a given chanty? Are they earlier or later or is the chanty spread over all of them?

By itself, this category can only tell us how often a chanty was collected after about 1880. But was it collected only once or over ten times? The more often it shows up, the more information we can gain about it.

Published Mention - by date of publication. This category is a little different from that of the collections. Here I would include the various magazine articles as well as mention made in travel accounts, fiction, letters, newspaper stories, etc. Examples would be Nordhoff, Olmstead, Gosse, Alden, etc. Hopefully this category will push us further back into the 19th century for some of these chanties. This category should begin to give us more of a geographical and chronological spread. It will also give us whatever firm historical dating that we may find.

Historical Informants - by estimated dates of when they were at sea or when they could have heard or sung these chanties. Examples would be Dick Maitland, Harding, Joanna Colcord, Hugill, Mr. Short, etc. While the dating of these informants is not always exact and the accounts are usually based on memory rather than written documents, this category does push the information gained in the "Collections" category a bit further back into the 19th century. It also gives us some geographical and chronological spread.

Use & Function - with some effort to trace historical development. How many different uses did a particular chanty serve throughout its history? Did it begin as a cotton-stowing song, and become a halyard chanty and then a capstan chanty or a pumping chanty? This category can give us a sense of how a work song evolved functionally throughout its lifetime. And perhaps use can point to some hints about location and time frames.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 04:36 PM

Categories of Multiple Attestation, Part II

Versions & Variants - with attention to different geographical and "trade" usage. In some cases we have a "family" of chanties, such as "Stormalong" and "Ranzo". In other cases we have multiple texts be applied to a chanty like "Knock A Man Down". And in each of these cases the different versions reflect different constituencies, such as the Blackball packets, or the cotton traders, or the rum and sugar traders, etc. This category begins to look not only at the number of different versions but the content of them.

Geographical Usage - with attention to historical timelines and locations. Here I am thinking of geographical spheres such as "the Western Ocean", the East India trade, the Gulf Port cotton trade, the Gold Rush, the Cape Horn traffic, the immigrant traffic to Australia, the Timber trade to Canada, all of the various whaling regions, etc. If a song shows up in a lot of different areas over time, then that is a clue to how wide its spread. The chanty "Hieland Laddie" is a good example of multiple use and broad geographical spread.

Genre Usage - focusing on our previous discussions of what chanties were used by different groups at sea during the 19th century. While we didn't turn up very much in this exploration, I still think it is a valid category of multiple attestation. If a chanty was a favorite with the whalers and with the East India men, and later shows up on the Western Packets, and then goes around Cape Horn with the Gold Rush, it has both geographical and historical spread and popularity.

Historical Usage - overlapping some of the previous categories. Here I would highlight the different commercial areas of interest like the tea trades, the cotton trades, the timber trades, the sugar trades, the passenger and mail ships, etc.

Pre-Chanty Song Sources - with some attention to both lyrics and tunes. Here I am thinking especially of African American slave songs and blackface minstrel songs, as well as Irish influences, etc. In some cases a chantey may have evolved from a number of different sources. This gives us a sense of cultural spread.

I realize that there is considerable overlap among these various categories, but each one has a particular focus. And once again, the point of looking at "multiple" attestations is that each attestation have some degree of independence from the others.    I realize that we have some cases where a writer may have "borrowed" from an earlier source. I would try to draw attention to that.

If one were to actually apply these categories to each and every chanty on "the list", as well as to other work songs, it would be a huge task. I think by using the first category of "Published Collections" I can narrow the selection down considerably to a workable number of chanties to look at.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 12:25 AM

Well....OK! I Can't wait to hear more!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 08:18 AM

Gibb-

I think John's computer may have crashed.

Shall we sing a couple of verses of "Leave Her Johnny," aka "Time for Us to Leave Her,"Leave her, Bullies, Leave Her" while we're waiting for him to "boot 'er up ag'in"?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 11:37 AM

Hey, Charlie, maybe you guys could do a joint YouTube thing. That would be great. I'm not crashed, just ruminating. And enjoying no snow, sunshine and clear skies.

Here's a list of the earliest documented work songs that have been mentioned so far on this thread. There may be others that I don't know about. We've already discussed these to some extent, but I will begin again with them and see how my categories work.

[1832] "The Quid"
"Oh her love is a sailor"
"Oh! if I had her"

[April 3, 1837] Captain Marryat
"Sally Brown"

[1840] Dana
"Heave, to the girls!"
"Nancy oh!"
"Jack Crosstree"
"Cheerly, men"
"Heave round hearty!"
"Captain gone ashore!"
"Dandy ship and a dandy crew"
"Time for us to go!"
"Round the corner"
"Tally high ho! you know"
"Hurrah! hurrah! my hearty bullies!"

[February 11,1840] Olmstead
"Drunken Sailor"
"Nancy Farana"
"O, Hurrah, My Hearties, O"

[circa 1844] Lowe
"Roll and go for that white pitcher, roll and go,"

[1845] "American Journal of Music"
"Ho, O, heave O" / "Row, Billy, row"

[1850s] Meacom/Whidden
"Mobile Bay"
"Fire Down Below"
"One More Day For Johnnie"

[c.1855] Nordhoff
"Old Stormy"
"Yankee Dollar"
"Fire Maringo"
"Highland Laddie"
"Across the briny ocean"

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 12:22 PM

[1845] "American Journal of Music"
"Ho, O, heave O" / "Row, Billy, row"

I'm wondering if "Row, Billy, row" is a mishearing or typo of the capstan shanty "Row, Bullies, Row" aka "Liverpool Judies" or "The Tow-Rope Girls." Hugill says it probably dates to the 1840's "since it was popular in the Western Ocean Packets." Hugill also suggests this might have been a rowing shanty used by Whalers, given its frequent reference to rowing rather than heaving or rolling. At any rate it seems likely that the American Journal is referring to the same song.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 01:40 PM

Charley,

Given the details supplied by Lighter, above, I doubt any correspondence between the two "Row" songs. (Incidentally, I really think "roll" must be the proper word in "Liverpool Judies")

I was about to join you on some topical verses of "Leave Her Johnny," but then I realized how little computer jargon I know, and less to rhyme with! Must be because I use a Mac ;)

And guys, I do have a YouTube chantey collaboration in the works, FYI, which will feature two other Mudcatters :)

John,

Great start. Though it may not fit your methodology (perhaps you've already discarded it), I'll remind you anyway of the book LANDSMAN HAY, in which the very chanty-like stevedore song "Grog time of day" was supposedly heard from stevedores in Jamaica in 1811. This is the text that Hugill "discovered. It looks like it was not published until 1953, being the memoirs of Robert Hay, 1789-1847. I've never had my hands on the book. But assuming these pre-1847 memoirs exist somewhere, they are notable. Well, what is notable is that the song really fits into the "classic" chanty form and that such a form was existing as early as 1811. Also notable is the possibility that such a form was at that time distinct (or fairly distinct) to either a specific region or specific ethnic group. Because the way in which it is described is as if "others" were engaged in the practice. The exact nature of the working of cargo is not stated. A capstan is mentioned, but I am not sure if this means that the cargo was hoisted by a line attached to the capstan. In Parrish's Georgia Sea Island study, the stevedores hoisted the cargo in a halyards-like way.

"Grog time of day" reminds me very much of the chanty "One More Day," in its phrasing and form.

A slight tangent:
"Sally Rackett"/"Haul er Away" is notably similar (in tune) to the well-known Jamaican song "Hill and Gully Rider." That is not to say that is necesariily came from a Jamaican song; I don't know its history, and it may have been the other way around. However, I do know that "Hill and Gully" was a work song, and that it was timed in the fashion of what are called "digging songs." The rhythm works in these songs such that (if we are consider the meter to be of four beats) the [fourth beat] cues the raising of pick axes (or whatever they did with?) so that they can come down and strike on beat ONE.

Hill and gully ri-[der]
ch. HILL and gully

It would work well as a rowing song, too, which is how they use it in the film version of Moby Dick.

This of course was a "single pull" type form. The fact that "Sally Racket" has very similar verses to "Cheerly, Men," another single-pull, makes me wonder.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 01:54 PM

I forgot to mention Phillip Gosse's "Fire the ringo, fire away" from 1838.

Any of these work songs *could* have been sung on board the "Julia Ann" since we know from the written sources they were around before 1855 (the Meacom and Nordhoff ones are a bit vague). But how many are only mentioned here in the literature on chanties?   The following have a single attestation:

"Oh her love is a sailor"
"Oh! if I had her"
"Heave, to the girls!"
"Nancy oh!"
"Jack Crosstree"
"Heave round hearty!"
"Dandy ship and a dandy crew"
"Time for us to go!"
"Tally high ho! you know"
"Hurrah! hurrah! my hearty bullies!"
"O, Hurrah, My Hearties, O"
"Roll and go for that white pitcher, roll and go,"
"Ho, O, heave O" / "Row, Billy, row"
"Yankee Dollar"

We have lyrics given for only five of these and a couple of them are partial:

"Oh her love is a sailor" (East India Company)
"Oh! if I had her"        (East India Company)
"Roll and go for that white pitcher, roll and go," (London docks)
"Ho, O, heave O" / "Row, Billy, row" (Mediterranean)
"Yankee Dollar" (Mobile)

In each of these cases, we do have some location indicators.

The others are simply titles, and for all practical purposes "lost" at the present time. I realize that attempts have been made to identify some of these but my sense of the discussion is that these remain questionable. I'm open to correction on this.

That leaves the following for further consideration:

"Across the briny ocean"
"Captain gone ashore!"
"Cheerly, men"
"Drunken Sailor"
"Fire Down Below"
"Fire Maringo"
"Highland Laddie"
"Mobile Bay"
"Nancy Farana"
"Old Stormy"
"One More Day For Johnnie"
"Round the corner"
"Sally Brown"

With all but three of these, we have lyrics for comparison with later versions. Dana does not give us words for "Captain Gone Ashore", "Cheerily Men" or "Around the Corner". Because Dana does not actually give us anything but titles, about all we can say with regard to him is that he documents the fact that chanties were being sung as work songs aboard sailing vessels that had gone around the horn to California, as early as 1840 and that there were in fact quite a few of them, relatively speaking. A number of his chanties may be related to ones collected later and the three mentioned above probably are.

Dana in fact gives us some important information about the historical and geographical spread of chanties prior to 1850. But beyond that, we have to turn to other sources. Therefore I would reduce the list, for now, to these chanties:

"Across the briny ocean"
"Drunken Sailor"
"Fire Down Below"
"Fire Maringo"
"Highland Laddie"
"Mobile Bay"
"Nancy Farana"
"Old Stormy"
"One More Day For Johnnie"
"Sally Brown"

All of these are on Gibb's list of call/response work songs above, except "Drunken Sailor".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 02:09 PM

Gibb, I didn't see your post before mine went up. Mudcat is moving very slowly for me today in terms of bringing up anything. Thanks for the reminder and information on "Grog time of day". My filing system is becoming ponderous these days and I had forgotten the LANDSMAN HAY reference. For now, I will add it to my group of singly attested songs with lyrics. I'm not dumping these songs, but only putting them in brackets for reconsideration later.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 02:48 PM

"Nancy Fanana" is again similar to "Cheerly, Men" in lyrics. That may not mean they are related songs, just that the "Nancy Fanana slept with a banana" device, like the "Was you ever down Mobile Bay?" device, was a common one. Still, I'd argue that that puts them in the same boat.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 02:59 PM

I am awed and full of admiration at the incredible work done in this research string by John Minear, Q, Charlie, Gibb and many others. This is the kind of work that makes the Mudcat a priceless resource. Applause and thanks to all of you.


A

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 04:04 PM

Hmmm?

Evidently Sharp also collected "Grog Time of Day" in the Appalachians:

"It has long been said that Cecil Sharp had a disliking for instrumental music in the Appalachians. Yet this is not the case. He noted fiddle tunes, was amused by a fiddler's convention and heard a number of banjo players. Why, I wonder, did he say that Mrs Crawford's nephews played their instruments 'characteristically', unless he was aware of the elements which characterised Appalachian instrumental music? Sharp had also previously noted 'fife tunes' from a Mr N B Chisholm of Wardbridge, VA, in 1916. Mr Chisholm had sung the tunes to Sharp using mnemonic verses such as the following, which he used to remember the tune Napoleon's Retreat:

It's grog time of day, my love
Grog time of day
When Boney crossed the Alps
It's grog time of day. #83

Maybe since this was a popular fiddle tune, it also surfaced in the West Indies where Robert Hay heard the stevedores working with it in 1811.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 05:17 PM

Ha! That's an interesting find, Charley.

But why would they be singing that in the Appalachians, unless the fife-player was an ex-sailor? The phrase "grog time of day," IMHO sounds distinctly West Indian (or something creole, at least). It's hard to believe that these verses were "random" (to me implied by "mnemonic verses"). Perhaps "Grog time of day" was a more widely known song?

On the Google search, there is also a link to a circa 1879 play set in the West Indies (I haven't checked it out in depth) in which one of the stage directions says "Music - 'Grog Time of Day'".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 07:00 PM

Charlie, this is very interesting. I am wondering if "Mr. N B Chisholm of Wardbridge, VA, in 1916" could be a reference to this:

"Professor Smith [of UVA in Charlottesville] passed Sharp onto a Mr Mannaway, a schools' inspector in Albermarle County, who suggested that Sharp should meet Mr N D Chisholm, 'a first rate folksinger', 51  and a Mrs Campbell, both of Brown's Cove, a small settlement in the Shenandoah Valley".   

I can't find a "Wardbridge, VA". But Brown's Cove is where Paul Clayton lived and collected songs and there are Chisholms there. Check out this wonderful site:

http://www.klein-shiflett.com/shifletfamily/HHI/GeorgeFoss/whall.html?

Also, if you have a copy of DEEP THE WATER, check on page 11 to see if there is something about this song. My copy just got recalled by the library. And, I found this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=i1dDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA259&dq=grog+time+of+day&cd=3#v=onepage&q=grog%20time%20of%20day&f=false

And what in the world do you make of this?! Is there a later edition of Dana that has been revised?

http://books.google.com/books?id=eIBaAAAAMAAJ&q=grog+time+of+day&dq=grog+time+of+day&lr=&cd=108

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 07:40 PM

Here is the site for the information on C. Sharp in the Appalachians. Check the end of the year 1916 for the information about Brown's Cove:

http://mustrad.org.uk/articles/sharp.htm

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 07:59 PM

Gibb and John-

Mr. Chisholm may well have been an ex-sailor or soldier, or good buddy or relative to one. Everyone loves a good tune, and evidently the words helped folks remember that tune; works for me, I know.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 08:11 PM

That revised Dana text is hilarious. It's like someone planted it just to trip us up. Otherwise, I can't explain it!

DEEP THE WATER quotes the SERVICE AFLOAT text that you found, John. That version of "Grog Time a Day" exactly matches the prosody (if I'm using the right term?) of "Doodle Let Me Go".

I'd forgotten that DEEP THE WATER also has "Fine Time o' Day", which has been performed by Finn & Haddie, incidentally. Give me a moment, and I'll try to summarize what is there.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 08:26 PM

Abrahams is citing 2 references to show maritime work songs in the West Indies in the 1830s.

The first is from TRANSATLANTOC SKETCHES (1833), in which a river trip in Guiana in 1831 is described. There is a rowing song which is a variation of what is now known as "The Sailor Likes His Bottle O".

http://books.google.com/books?id=NsERAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=alexander+t

The passage seems to also refer to "Bear Away Yankee," which Abrahams himself collected in the Caribbean and which gives the title of his book. Pg. 54.

The other reference is also to a rowing song, "Fine Time o' Day." It appears with musical transcription in WEST INDIA SKETCH BOOK (1835). Pg. 241.

sketch book

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 09:16 PM

It would seem that "Napolean's Retreat" is the same as "Bonaparte's Retreat". Here is a not very good recording from Kentucky:

http://aca-dla.org/cgi-bin/showfile.exe?CISOROOT=/Berea&CISOPTR=1476

It comes from here:

http://aca-dla.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/Berea&CISOPTR=1476&REC=17

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Snuffy
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 09:23 AM

Evidence from Carpenter's singers indicates a fair antiquity for "Bully in the Alley":

James Forman was born 1844 and went to sea in 1856, and Carpenter's notes say 'Learned as a boy before going to sea.'

Edward Robinson, was older (b 1834, to sea 1846), and Carpenter's handwritten notes to his version say 'cotton screwing' and (puzzlingly) 'Captain Page heard the chantey about 1853.'

Captain Page (b 1835, to sea 1849) was another old salt, apparently at the same sailors' rest home as Capt Robinson.

These are just snippets available from the online index: when Carpenter's full text and notes are available, we may well be able to push the dates of several shanties back from the '80s to the '50s or even '40s.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 09:27 AM

John-

"Bonaparte's Retreat" is still a standard contradance tune.

That is indeed a puzzling revision of Dana. In my volume the "quoted" paragraph is on pages 259-260. And I have you both to thank for what just happened to the pile of books on my desktop when I pulled TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST out from the bottom. ;~(

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 09:44 AM

Snuffy-

Evidently "Bully in the Alley" was also used by stevedores screwing bales of wool on the Sydney docks in the late 19th century, as the song is referenced in poems by the Australian poet Edwin J. Brady who worked as a tally clerk on Circular Quay.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 12:18 PM

Snuffy, thanks for the information on the Carpenter collection. It is important and not so accessible. This is precisely the kind of information I will be looking at under my category of "Historical Informants". And thanks for the heads up on "Bully in the Alley".

Charley, that tantalizing little snippet on Dana is from a book about him by a certain Robert L. Gale, entitled RICHARD HENRY DANA, JR. But he definitely seems to be quoting some version of TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST! I haven't had a chance to do any further looking and I don't have any immediate access to this book. But his quote sure doesn't come from my copy of Dana! There is still that mystery about where Hugill found his extra three chanties from Dana. Maybe there is another edition out there.

And thanks for that information on "Bully in the Alley" out in Australia. I think it is important to document that end of things every chance we get.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 10:17 PM

I should have the Gale book in my hands tomorrow. Will report what I find.

Gibb, nice finds for "Fine Time of Day" and especially "Bottle-O."

I was thinking about "Highland Laddie" as used so relatively early as ashanty. I wonder if part of its appeal came from the question in the original Jacobite version, "Where have you been all the day?" Conceivably this song was the inspiration for the pattern, "Were you ever in X ?"

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 10:33 PM

Here is a bit more of the "snippet" on the Gale book copied from Google Books:

Richard Henry Dana, Jr‎ - Page 47
Robert L. Gale - Biography & Autobiography - 1969 - 191 pages
'Grog time a day,' 'Hurrah! hurrah! my hearty bullies!' or 'Round the corner,
Sally!"' (257). April 15 brought the Pilgrim, commanded by Faucon, ...
Snippet view

Not only does this add "Grog time a day", but also it adds "Sally" to "Round the corner". I looked at a number of the online versions of different editions and this doesn't show up in any of them.

Here's all I could find on the different editions:

"There are three editions of Two Years before the Mast.

1.The original 1840 edition.

2. The 1869 edition - this is a revision by Dana himself, after the original copyright has expired. Among many changes, Dana removes the "sharply unromantic opening paragraphs" and the final chapter. He adds a new chapter "Twenty Fours Years After"

3. The 1911 edition - prepared by his son Richard Henry Dana based upon the 1869 edition. The son adds research about the Crew, and a Dictionary of Nautical Terms based on Dana's "The Seaman's Friend", an Introduction and a new chapter "Seventy Five Years After"

I'll be very interested to see what you find Lighter.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 07:09 AM

We have at least three independent attestations for "Grog Time of Day", which are LANDSMAN HAY, SERVICE AFLOAT, and Cecil Sharp. I am adding it to my short list of very early chanties (with lyrics) for further consideration:

"Across the briny ocean"
"Drunken Sailor"
"Fire Down Below"
"Fire Maringo"
"Grog Time Of Day"
"Highland Laddie"
"Mobile Bay"
"Nancy Farana" ("Haul 'er Away")
"Old Stormy"
"One More Day For Johnnie"
"Sally Brown"

And, the three very likely candidates from Dana (without lyrics), which are:

"Captain gone ashore!"
"Cheerily Men"
"Round The Corner"

As Snuffy pointed out, we may be able to expand this list of earliest chanties when we look at the category of Historical Informants.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 09:08 AM

Nice to see "Old Stormy" in the list; it reeks of age.

I was quite excited the other evening when I ran across a verse from this shanty, in a novel set in 1815, raised by shipwrecked sailors making their way on the final leg to New Orleans. But the novel LONG PENNANT is by Oliver La Farge and published in 1933; the sailors also discuss the "chanty" singing aboard their ship. But I guess this is not a literary reference that would survive much scrutiny.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 09:24 AM

Nancy FaNana ;)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 09:47 AM

It's my weird dialect (and too many references) that gets my "r's" mixed up with my "n's". Fanana it is.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 01:41 PM

Well, I think I've tracked down Mr. NB Chisholm of Woodridge [rather than "Wardbridge"], Virginia. Woodridge is in Albemarle County, south of Charlottesville, here:

http://maps.google.com/maps/place?client=safari&rls=en-us&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=Woodridge+VA&fb=1&gl=us&ftid=0x89b39036bd34dd

Here is the family information on Mr. Chisholm. Would you believe that his name was "Napoleon Bonaparte Chisholm"!

http://www.kalelrojin.com/ancestry/pace/desc12.htm#5

and here, which mentions Sharp's visit, but forgets his name!

http://www.kalelrojin.com/ancestry/pace/not12.htm#5

and here is a picture of his wife

http://www.kalelrojin.com/ancestry/pace/images/sbd.htm

He was a brother of James Chisholm, who was married to Emma Truslow of Nellysford, VA. Sharp also collected some songs from them in Nellysford. Nellysford is also the home of John Minear.

Cecil Sharp says in his introduction to ENGLISH FOLK SONGS IN THE SOUTHERN APPALACHIANS, p. xxviii, that he collected 24 songs from NB Chisholm. I have managed to find nine ballads and four songs in Sharp's collection that he attributes to NB Chisholm.

Here are the ballads. They are given with : "Title" Child-number, Sharp's number and variant, page in Sharp's ENGLISH FOLK SONGS IN THE SOUTHERN APPALACHIANS, and Volume number, page number, and variant number in Bronson's THE TRADITIONAL TUNES OF THE CHILD BALLADS.

"Sir Lionel" C-18, Sharp No 9 B, p. 54 in EFSSA; and Vol I, on page 273, "15" in Bronson.
"The Cruel Mother" C-20, Sharp No 10 D, pp. 56-57; and Vol I, on p. 292, "44" in Bronson.
"Fair Margaret & Sweet William" C-74, Sharp No 20 G, pp. 139-140; and in Vol II, on p.181, "59" in Bronson.
"Barbara Allen" C-84, Sharp No 24 H, p. 191; and Vol II, p. 387, "184" in Bronson.
"The Maid Freed From the Gallows" C-95, Sharp No 28 D, pp. 2110-211; and Vol II, p. 465, "42" in Bronson.
"The Gypsy Laddie" C-200, Sharp No 33 G, p. 237; and Vol III, p. 215, "33" in Bronson.
"Wife Wrapt In Wether's Skin" C-227, Sharp No 39 A, p. 271; and Vol. IV, p. 161, "38" in Bronson.
"The Farmer's Curst Wife" C-278, Sharp No 40 B, pp.276-277; and Vol IV, p. 202, "54" in Bronson.
"The Brown Girl" C-259, Sharp No 44 E, p. 297; and Vol IV, p. 419, "42" in Bronson.

And here are the four songs that I could find. This leaves eleven songs unaccounted for, but they are probably in Sharp's unpublished manuscripts.

"The Keys of Heaven" Sharp No 92 C, pp. 47-48.
"The False Young Man" Sharp No 94 E, p. 55.
"My Mother Bid Me" Sharp No 108 A, pp. 93-94.
"The Frog In the Well" Sharp No 221 A, p. 320.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 01:43 PM

I should have added that this is in the opposite direction from Charlottesville from Brown's Cove, which is where Paul Clayton lived for a while. Woodridge is in the direction of the James River and Brown's Cove is at the base of the Blue Ridge.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 02:05 PM

I have good but somewhat peculiar news. First of all, Gale's quotation is quite accurate. Second, Dana wrote at least three different versions of the same paragraph, each one different, for no obvious reason.

The version that includes "Cheerly men," "Dandy ship and a dandy crew" and "Tally high ho!" comes from Dana's 1869 revision of his 1840 publication. That's a nearly thirty-year difference. Those three titles do not appear in the earlier versions of the paragraph.
The 1869 edition is the one usually reprinted.

Gale cites instead the edition published by John H. Kemble in 1969, which combines the wording of the 1840 first edition with that of Dana's original manuscript. Kemble restores material that had been edited out, presumably by Dana's publisher. According to Kemble, Dana's manuscript paragraph includes the title "Grog Time a Day," just as Gale quotes it. Also significant is that Dana originally wrote "Round the corner, Sally!" rather than just "Round the corner." That makes it more certain that the shanty with the fuller, familiar title is the one he heard.

Also, I don't recall if anyone has commented on Dana's remark that his "songs for capstan and falls" have "a chorus at the end of each line." It would be unrealistic to assume that he meant that was true in all cases, but I think we can assume that he meant it was most usually the case. That suggests to me a rather primitive shanty style, with one improvised line and a short repeating chorus (like "Haul Away, Joe!" or "Haul on the Bowline!"), rather than the more elaborate four-line rhyming stanza that we think of as the "classic" shanty form. "Round the Corner, Sally!" fits the earlier form. If that's what Dana meant, and the more elaborate form was still rare, it's a further suggestion that shantying was still in a formative stage in 1835.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 02:47 PM

Lighter-

I see that your time machine is in full operation again!

John-

"Napoleon Bonaparte Chisholm" of Woodridge,

Check!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 03:24 PM

Just got it back from the shop.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 04:13 PM

Good work, Lighter! Are we to take Kemble's edition as the "authoritative edition"? If so, it gives us "Round the Corner, Sally" as an early chanty with multiple attestations. And it gives another significant early attestation for "Grog Time of Day". It would seem to remove "Cheerily Men" from Dana's "list". However, Dana does mention "Cheerily Men" in actual use in at least four other places (in the 1911 edition from Google), on p. 118 to cat the anchor, on page 197 to bring the anchor to the head, on page 301 to bring the topsails to the masthead, and on page 316 at the halyards.

http://books.google.com/books?id=NM4PAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA118&dq=%22Cheerily+Men%22&lr=&cd=13#v=onepage&q=%22Cheerily%20Men%22&f=false

So some version of "Cheerily Men" was being used whether or not Dana included it in the famous "list". I don't know what to do about the other two chanties that have all of a sudden disappeared. As I recall the earlier discussions, there were suggestions for what "Dandy ship and a dandy crew" and "Tally high ho!" might be in the later literature, but nothing really conclusive on either one of them.

The more troubling question though is why would Dana make these changes in this paragraph. It seems like he lost control of his first edition in 1840 to the publishers and later regained his copyright and "revised" the book for the 1869 edition thirty years later. Which is the "correct" version? Presumably the "original manuscript". It seems a strange place for the publishers to edit something. Were they prohibitionists?

Still no sign of Hugill's mysterious additions though. I wonder if they might be referred to somewhere else in the Kemble edition? It was published in 1964, after Hugill's book in 1961, so it would seem doubtful that he had seen it. Perhaps he had an original 1840 first edition, or his sources did. Lighter, can you do a quick run-through to see if "Roll the Old Chariot", "Cheer Up, Sam", and "Neptune's Raging Fury" are mentioned?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 05:24 PM

The three additional shanties are not mentioned, so far as I can tell.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 07:57 PM

I would guess that Dana knew the poem, Neptune's Raging Fury, since it has gone through many printings between the 1600s and c. 1840, was known to Pepys and appeared in collections of the Roxburghe Ballads (online, google books).
It apparently started life as "Countriemen of England" and is known by 1635.
None of that, of course, gives any indication of it evolving into a chantey.
The other two also would have been known to Dana as songs but perhaps not as chanteys.

This is probably repetition of previous posts, but there is now a lot to read through.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 08:40 PM

"Neptune's Raging Fury" aka "The Gallant Seaman's Suffering" is certainly not a shanty but was reprinted in SEA SONGS AND BALLADS, edited by Christopher Stone, published by Oxford at the Clarendon Press, © 1906, pp. 22-25.

The most interesting sea song in this book has to be one titled "Earliest Sea Song" which does have some pulley/hauley lines such as "Hale in the wartack!", "Hale the bowelyne!" and "Y how! Taylia! The remenaunt cryen, And pull with all theyr myght." This level of archaic nautical talk is even a little much for me to fathom.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 09:13 PM

Q, there was some back and forth between this thread and the "Lost Shanties" thread earlier on. I had raised the question about these three chanties on Hugill's list of Dana's chanties because I could not find them. Apparently no one else could either. And now we know they weren't in either the original manuscript or the 1840 first edition - according to Kemble's edition.   Here are two earlier posts:

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=316#2815482

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=316#2816121

Unless somebody "finds" them somewhere in Dana I will continue to set them, or at least "Cheer Up, Sam" and "Roll the Old Chariot" aside until later.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 03:23 PM

Lighter,

Also, I don't recall if anyone has commented on Dana's remark that his "songs for capstan and falls" have "a chorus at the end of each line." It would be unrealistic to assume that he meant that was true in all cases, but I think we can assume that he meant it was most usually the case. That suggests to me a rather primitive shanty style, with one improvised line and a short repeating chorus (like "Haul Away, Joe!" or "Haul on the Bowline!"), rather than the more elaborate four-line rhyming stanza that we think of as the "classic" shanty form. "Round the Corner, Sally!" fits the earlier form. If that's what Dana meant, and the more elaborate form was still rare, it's a further suggestion that shantying was still in a formative stage in 1835.

That is was I was also expressing in my 01 Mar 10 - 06:07 PM post. Glad to see it's not just me who gets that sense from the description.

However, I am not sure about "Round the Corner." As it is known now, it is in fact in the "classic" shanty form as I see it. I am open to the idea, however, that it may have been performed differently in those times (e.g. with just one pull, on "SALly"). One could see it fit into either style. Too bad we don't have any lyrics to give more clues.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 05:37 PM

This is jumping the gun -- and maybe destroys John's careful methodology -- but in this exercise of "historical imagination," I'd like to eventually add other possible chanties that are very similar to the ones determined. My rationale would be that, as per my notion of a "chanty" as a "framework" rather than a "piece," other chanties of very similar framework (and within historical reason, textually) could be re-considered. An example would be "Grog Time of Day" suggesting that "Do(odle) Let Me Go" may have also existed. They have the exact same form, I think, and if the language of the latter does not bar it from the time period, then OK. There will be no proof that "Do Let Me Go" was existing, however, for imagination's sake, one might include it.

Gibb

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 06:00 PM

Gibb, my "careful methodology" is based on a wide-open imagination. Feel free to add away. I think that it is just fine to have several things going on at once here. I am using your "notion of a "chanty" as a "framework" rather than a "piece," as my baseline. I think juxtaposition generates creativity.

I want to be clear about what you and Lighter are suggesting. Are you saying that a one-pull response is perhaps more basic/earlier in form than a two-pull response, and that a one line call with one line response is perhaps an earlier form than call/response/call/response? What is the difference between a one line call/one line response, with a single pull, and what is usually called a "short haul chanty"? I know this is elemental, but I barely know one end of a rope from the other.

And, if a chanty conforms to single call/single response, with single pull form, then it may be a candidate for an earlier time frame, even if we can't find a proof text to document it. Again, if I am understanding this correctly, it makes sense to me. I'm looking forward to some more examples.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 07:12 PM

I concur with Gibb that a shanty is well defined as a "framework," i.e. a melody and a solo/chorus pattern. I'm strongly tempted to add to that at least one "regulation" solo line to confirm the song's identity, but I won't insist that it's necessary - yet.

To take an imaginary counterexample: if a shantyman began singing the words of the ballad "My Son David" in the framework of "Highland Laddie," with no overlapping filler verses, I think we'd still say it was a different shanty on the basis of the lyrics.

I thought of "My Son David" because the tune Jeannie Robertson used in the renditions that made her famous really does resemble "Highland Laddie"!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 08:58 PM

I'm down with the regulation solo line thing, too.

To elaborate on Lighter's "My Son of David" example (hopefully not distorting it):

Yes, looking back we might think we had a different/distinct shanty if we were to keep a rigid textual analysis. However, with the "framework" definition, it would just be a possible variation. From the text evidence, we only get a snapshot of a specific variant that occurred at one place/time. If the "shanty" as a concept/framework were some big blob, then the recorded instance is like taking a cross-section of that, a thin slice to be laid down upon a slide.

John,

Are you saying that a one-pull response is perhaps more basic/earlier in form than a two-pull response, and that a one line call with one line response is perhaps an earlier form than call/response/call/response?

Yes, earlier. I have been arguing that it predates the term "chant(y)," while suggesting that most of the songs associated with the term are the 2-pull form. And I am also suggesting (or at least subscribing to some ideas of others) that the 2-pull form, chant/y, spelled a very specific mode of *working* that might not have existed before that time period. It was a more disciplined and well-paced (arguably) style of work. It may have originated out of the absolute necessity of small crews handling heavy yards. Earlier, large crews could walk away with the halyard, or, pull hand-over-hand or maybe even pull willy-nilly! I hoisted the boom on a schooner (much lighter than yards on a square-sail) once out on the ocean and even with a small group, since they raised no chantey or even a 1-2-3-pull!, we just pulled willy-nilly. Heavy yards, by contrast, would require some sort of discipline if the crew was small. That discipline, in earlier times, may have been provided by the one-pull songs (re: Dana). However, my feeling from some experience having done that (mind you, not much) is that those one-pulls are not nearly as effective as the 2-pull form.

Backtracking... it may have been the work, in the new packet ships, that necessitated the 2-pulls. Yet it may also have been that the 2-pull style was in use in cotton-screwing, and it was adopted simply by custom, after which it was seen to work better. The 2-pull style does seem to have replaced the 1-pull at halyards (if the latter ever was very common to begin with).

What is the difference between a one line call/one line response, with a single pull, and what is usually called a "short haul chanty"? I know this is elemental, but I barely know one end of a rope from the other.

They are the same, so to speak. That is, the short haul chanties have 1 pull, whereas it is possible (in a few cases) for a long haul maneuver to also use a chantey with only one pull (examples of such chanties are in one of my subcategories, above). In the latter case, the chanty would go quicker. For the short haul chanty, think of fewer total pulls needed for the job, and stronger bursts of force. In general (though not necessarilly), each pull on the short haul doesn't take as much rope, so it is jerkier. Whereas the long haul pull gains more distance and is smoother.

short haul = power, for short job
long haul = stamina and pacing, for long job (cf. turning cotton jackscrews)

The short haul songs shade off into the very elemental cries of "sing-outs" "sweatin' up chants," etc.

And, if a chanty conforms to single call/single response, with single pull form, then it may be a candidate for an earlier time frame, even if we can't find a proof text to document it. Again, if I am understanding this correctly, it makes sense to me. I'm looking forward to some more examples.

Perhaps. Though it is not to say that many single-pulls could not have been made up later, too. For instance, I am fond of the idea that "Haul Away Joe" might have been cut from the same Big Blob as the minstrel song "Jim Along Josie." Perhaps not, but as there never ceased to be a need for short drags -- probably the most common task -- then we can't close the door on them.

As for examples, when I was earlier sorting your list into categories, I never got to a short drag category. Perhaps if you'd like to throw some potential titles up, we could mess with them. ;)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 09:25 PM

"Johnny Bowker" is a good example of a short drag that must have come later, it being from a minstrel song.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 09:59 PM

A one-line, one-line chorus, one-pull shanty is *formally* more primitive than a "stanzaic" shanty with two solos and two choruses. But that doesn't mean that the "more primitive" shanties really arose before the others. Though one "feels" that the one-pull form came first, simple and elaborate forms may both have arisen simultaneously. There's no way to be sure.

However, Gibb may be on to something very important in the idea that two-pull shanties are more effective and require more discipline. If the packet ships of, say, the 1820s really did require more work from smaller crews, that would be a possible cause for not just more shantying but for the use of more formally complex shanties.

A new way of doing things would help explain why there are no clear shanty references in the period before Dana. A decade earlier, let's say, any shanties that were "sung" might have been so improvisational, lyrically inconsequential, and relatively tuneless that few writers would have cared about them.

Isn't there supposed to have been a boom in transatlantic or Caribbean shipping around 1825, that might have encouraged shanty development further? If so, it might finally be possible to answer the question, "Where are the 18th Century shanties?" with more than just guess work.

Except for something as primitive as "Paddy Doyle's Boots," there may not have been any. (Or have I said this already?)

I wonder also how the word "chant" might have been pronounced in various Afro-Caribbean (or "Afro New Orleans") dialects. If it customarily came out as "shant," that would be one mystery solved. Far-fetched perhaps, but worth looking into.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:03 PM

Gibb, our messages crossed. "Johnny Booker" indeed shows that formal simplicity is independent of chronology.

Pointless to speculate, but the "framework," without the name "Johnny Booker," might still be older than the minstrel song.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:35 AM

I wonder also how the word "chant" might have been pronounced in various Afro-Caribbean (or "Afro New Orleans") dialects. If it customarily came out as "shant," that would be one mystery solved. Far-fetched perhaps, but worth looking into.

Abrahams (DEEP THE WATER) cites a useful reference. It comes from the WEST INDIA SKETCHBOOK by Trelawny. Abrahams (probably acccidentally) cites vol. 1, but I find the reference in vol. 2, which has a publication date of 1834. Trelawny is describing a plantation scene of slaves at harvest time. He gives a song, with music notation. It is not 100% clear, but it seems like the song is accompanying light work. That is, although he casts the scene as one of joy and celebration, I'm sure work was also going on...though that does that mean this was necessarily a work-song.

In any case, the point of the citation is to show the use of the phrase "Chaun fine." Abrahams believes this was the author's way of spelling "shant fine," which he appears to claim (pg. 14) was still a phrase in use by his informants.

Indeed, I'd have read "chaun" to suggest the same pronunciation (i.e. like the name "Sean"). Cf. also my wondering, above, about the term "chaunt" for African American genres, though it appears "chaunt" had much wider usage for "song" (though perhaps with certain connotations) in the early 19th century.

Here is the passage from Trelawny:

Chaun fine

Elsewhere in the book, I see that Trelawny uses the phonetic spelling of "chaun" for dialect pronunciation of "shan't". "...aw chaun wary no mo" (pg. 16), i.e. "I shan't worry no more." It seems pretty clear to me what he was trying to convey, then, in his "chaun fine" -- a word that sounds like "shan't," but which obviously had a different meaning (i.e. it is a verb, in the imperative form).

In volume 1 of the book, "chaun" is also used to render "shan't" (pg. 307).

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:44 AM

adding to my last post...

I don't know about the "usual" pronunciation of "chaunt." I have seen reference in a music book to its pronunciation "/shän/"-- French inspired, I take it. That was a book in reference to Western art music. I don't know how it was pronounced as general slang.

What I mean is, I don't know if this Jamaican pronunciation ("chaun fine") represented something distinct, or if that was the general way of pronouncing it in other Englishes.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:07 AM

Chaun fine my deary hunney, here are the rest of the chanties on my original list, which include "stamp 'n go", "hand over hand", and "short haul", along with Mr. Doyle's boots.

"Drunken Sailor" [stamp 'n go/hand over hand]
"Hieland Laddie" c [stamp 'n go]
"John Dameray" / "Johnny Come Down The Backstay" [stamp 'n go]
"Johnny, Come Along" [stamp 'n go]
"Rise Me Up from Down Below" [stamp 'n go]

"Boney" / "John Francois" [short haul & halyards]
"Haul Away, Joe" [short haul]
"Haul The Bowline" [short haul]
"Johnny Boker" [short haul]

"Paddy Doyle"

And a growing list of possible "one pull" chanties, which are like "short haul" chanties, but used for a "long haul" job, and very labor intensive:

"Cheerily Men"
       "Little Sally Racket" / "Haul 'er Away" / "Nancy FaNana"
['Hill and Gully Rider"]
"Grog Time of Day"
"Do(oldle) Let Me Go"
"Johnny Bowker" (same as above)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 09:30 AM

Thanks, John.

The stamp'n'go-s form a funny group. First, "Johnny Come Along" seems unlikely as a stamp 'n' go. Apparently it was ascribed that task in German ships. One could argue that any song with a steady beat and a bright tempo could work, still I think this one is really ill-matched, and more trouble than it's worth. Here's a thread attempting to get at the origins (and my rendition of the chantey form, at the end).

Recall that my categories will by form, which relates to job function but which doesn't correspond exactly. "Hieland Laddie" I've already put into the category of call/response/call/response (Lighter's "stanzaic," or if you will, "classic" chantey form as our discourse is beginning to refer to it). Without the "mock chorus" (my term), it has the form of a typical halyard chantey (and has been ascribed as such), and with that chorus it is suitable for capstan and stamp 'n' go. The related "Donkey Riding" was another possible stamp'n'go. Just WHY these may have been specifically ascribed as such is unclear. Their form, I argue, does not really suit them better to the task than, say, "Marching to Pretoria." I think it was probably more a matter of happenstance that certain songs got linked to that task. Also consider that that task may very well have been circumscribed by constraints like time period and crew size. As I've been discussing, my understanding is that the practice of stamp'n' go preceded (chronologically) the 2-pull halyard maneuver. It did not die out (as evidenced by the German "Johnny Come Along"), but it was more suitable for large vessels with lots of space and for large crews. (Incidentally, I got to do a stamp'n'go a few times last summer at Mystic, but it was on a small schooner, and it felt kind of silly, tripping and running about. ) And, it seems to have been used in later times at braces rather than halyards.

If there were anything about the form of "Donkey Riding" to specifically connect it to stamp'n'go, I'd guess the pattern of three phrases, followed by the long chorus. This is just reaching; I only say it because "Drunken Sailor" also has three phrases. It may just be that the actual lyrics "Way hay, and away we go," inspired the action. But again, I tend to think it was probably just an association that formed. So "Hieland Laddie" is in the "classic" form (Donkey Riding is an adaptation of that).

I just don't think these stamp'n'go-s cohere into any formal category. "Rise me Up" evokes "Drunken Sailor" with its "rise him/her/me up." It's repetition also bears similarity, and that may be a stamp'n'g feature. The same could be said for the repetition in "John Dameray." But the forms are consistent.

Two consistent forms are those of "Drunken Sailor" and "Roll the old Chariot" (to be added to the list). Their form is that of a phrase sung solo, then 2 repetitions of that in chorus, followed by a full chorus. There is no rhyme, no "stanza." It is quite a different beast, I think, from the "classic" chanties. "Drunken Sailor" appears to hail from the earlier navy days, when stamp'n' go was the thing, and when it was actually more often carried out to drumming and fifing (?). [I am trying to bring a lot of things together here, so forgive me for not fact-checking every statement!]

FWIW, other chanties have the form of three phrases repeated at the start. However, I wouldn't say that is specific to chantey repertoire. (My personal, pet name for these is "boring chanties"!) An example is "The Arabella." They generate lots of time-pass, with minimal textual variation or creativity. And I think these could be filed into a category that might reveal a common "origin" (e.g. European, or military songs, or something).

So I am not willing to create any major category out of the scanty stamp'n'go material. Dana may have used them. Howevr, his comment of "a chorus at the end of each line" does not appear to describe the forms of stamp'n'go chanties that are available.

On to short drags a bit later.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 09:52 AM

Excellent analysis!

I've also been wondering about the stevedore "screw-press" work songs, which I believe are also modeled on two coordinated exertions, but pushes rather than pulls. The screw-press gang was generally a four-person team, plus a song-leader/coordinator, and each member would be pushing on one of the arms of the press as follows:

Lift him up and carry him along (repositioning),
FIRE, Maringo, FIRE him away!
Lay him in the hold where he belong (repositioning),
FIRE, Maringo, FIRE him away!

I imagine that the "chaunt" was only raised when the pushing began to get more arduous and there was a need for repositioning, probably similar to work with the capstan where the shanty was changed (or at least modified in tempo) as the ship drew close to where the anchor was embedded and more effort was needed to break it out and haul it aboard.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 10:22 AM

Thanks, Charley. Good Morning!

To clarify, I am in total agreement that the cotton screwing songs were modeled on two coordinated exertions, and that is what I think may have transfered over to halyards work. Formally speaking, it would not matter whether those exertions were pushes or pulls.

However, I am intrigued by your statement that the screwing action used pushes. I know we have discussed this before (you and I specifically). And somewhere I remember seeing references to both pushes and pulls. Then there was one great photo you found, linked, and I believe another that you were unable to share. In the one that I saw, although I hoped it would clear up the action, I still did not get an exact sense. From it, I had tentatively concluded that the work might involve pushing AND pulling (more like twisting), depending on where a man was standing. If you imagine turning a doorknob with your right hand, it is as if your 4 fingers are pulling while the thumb is pushing (?) I may be totally wrong, but I got stuck there!

I don't mean to make you drag up all the old references and posts, but if you've got a way to show that it was probably a pushing action, I'd be grateful to see it.

Gibb

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 10:38 AM

Here is the exchange between me and Charley trying to sort out the screwing business. Charley's photo link is the last post.

LINK

It looks like the "wheel" is positioned as the wheel of a ship (am I seeing correctly), and that there are bars/spokes/handles protruding just the same. And it looks like they'd be turning towards the right side of the photo, i.e. the right-most man would be pulling towards himself, while the left-most man would have to sort of push. But honestly, I really can't tell; there is imagination involved. And what on earth is the guy at fore (back towards the photo) doing?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 12:16 PM

Gibb-

If some were pushing and some were pulling on four bars of a screw jack, wouldn't they be getting in each other's way?

We used to have an apple cider press that worked on a similar principle but only required two people exerting effort on a bar that went through the axle; in that case one person pulled while the other pushed, hopefully in coordination, and they wouldn't get in each other's way. But they would switch off grips as the bar worked its way around.

I suppose the cotton screwing gangs would also have to switch grips and reposition themselves as the bars came round. Otherwise they would end up tripping or stepping over the arm that was pressing in the bale, which seems more awkward.

In the Bosun's Locker, edited by Stan Hugill, p. 202, there's a drawing he made of what he thought cotton-screwing looked like. There're only two people working this screw-press but they are definitely "heaving" rather than "hauling."

Hugill, p. 203, also quotes Nordhoff as mentioning several screwing "chants" such as "Old Stormy," "Bonnie Laddie Hieland Laddie," and one other which I'm not sure we've mentioned:

Hurrah, Bee-man do!
Oh, we work for a Yankee dollar,
Hurrah, see-man do!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 12:56 PM

Charley, the "Hurrah, Bee-man do!" song is what I've been calling Nordhoff's "Yankee Dollar". Thanks for this morning's discussion. And Gibb, I'm processing your posts. Thanks.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 01:43 PM

The more I look at the photo of cotton screwers in Galveston, Texas, the more clear it seems that the four stevedores do not shift their relative positions as they work, and that they heave and haul in turn as the bars rotate. The space is much too cramped for much other movement. So maybe the chant works like this:

Lift him up and carry him along (repositioning),
FIRE (heave), Maringo, FIRE (haul) him away!
Lay him in the hold where he belong (repositioning),
FIRE (heave), Maringo, FIRE (haul) him away!

Every other stevedore would be heaving or hauling at any one time, then shifting operations.

We'll have to try this some time!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 02:15 PM

Yeah, there's no walking involved in the cotton-screwing. Just arm action. Once a worker's bar/handle (I still can't make it out) goes beyond a certain degree of rotation, he must either 1) perform the opposite action of what he was just doing, or 2) grab the next bar that comes around. Mind you, I'm still just guessing here.

Any chance we could access the other pictures you've seen, Charley? I fully understand is they are private or in an incompatible medium; just asking.

Wouldn't it be cool, though to get one of these jackscrews set up, say, at Mystic, to give it a try? I am surprised these things aren't sitting around somewhere; perhaps they are, but with the Internet nowadays, one sometimes feels that if he can't find it there, he won't find it anywhere! Since Mobile's maritime museum was a wash when I went there, maybe a trip to Galveston is in order!

A more relevant issue to the present thread, however, is the irksome line in Nordhoff about how the pull on the screw came at the END of the refrain; I was just reminded of that whilst reading the "Maringo" thread. I don't like it, because it messes with the theory that I currently agree with (2 pulls, one on each "fire", as Charley parsed it). I must admit that, I am so content with this theory now (it seems to explain a lot), that I want to disregard Nordhoff's wording as something too imprecise. Yet still, it is there, just as much as Dana's comment.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 02:37 PM

Gibb-

I really don't have a clue of where I saw the illustration of four stevedores working with the screw-press. No doubt one of those enumerable web searches which is now "history."

I'm surprised that there are not more images available.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 02:53 PM

Hmmm. I seem to have run across something described as "The Revelers-Dusky Stevedore": click here for video!

Good for a break from this arduous work!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 03:42 PM

The single-pull work-songs are a bit harder to sort.

There are the short pieces that have customarily been considered as formally too primitive to be chanties -- that is, so far as chanties as we have become accustomed to them are more developed and song-like. But I think that distinction (more or less primitive) is a difficult one to maintain; one is better off just describing the thing as it is.

Hugill appears to lump together under "sing outs" at least two different sorts of action. One is constant, such as when hauling in the slack of a rope, hand over hand, quickly and without any particular need of coordination. Let's disregard that.

The other is a song to coordinate a concerted effort. The bulk of that category consists of chants for "sweating up" / "swigging down" (same thing), which is that practice of throwing the weight of ones body down to get the last few inches of tightness on a line. Such a chant was also used for stiff jerks on tacks/sheets. I have a general understanding of these things, but I'm no pro, nor have I done them myself.

I've created a thread that has attempted samples of just about every documented chant of this type -- so far as Hugill compiled most of them in his SfSS.

sing-outs thread

As the discussion goes there, too, it is dicey business to try to distinguish these from some other songs that have been given the honor (i.e. in collectors' books) as fully-fledged shanties.

Description: The sweating-up chants have short phrases, at the end of which is a refrain. Sometimes --notably-- the chorus joins in only on the last word or two. Most importantly, the moment of action usually occurs at the very end.

I want to use that as a baseline, then, and see how short-hauls that have been called "shanties" are similar or different.

I think "Johnny Bowker" absolutely belongs to the sweating-up category (also used for sheets). One could speculate reasons why it has been handed down as a "major" chantey rather than as a "minor" work chant, but I won't.

"Paddy Doyle" is just like any sweating-up form, it just so happens that it got linked, somehow, to the bunting task. Custom, I suppose.

For tacks/sheets are the following.
"Boney" - could also be for halyards if the pulls are timed differently. Indeed, because of its two often rhyming phrases, it can morph into the classic form.
"Haul Away, Joe" - The only thing that distinguishes this and the following from other sweating up forms, I think, is that the end refrain is a bit longer and the melodies a bit curvier.
"Haul The Bowline"

I don't think "Grog Time of Day" or "Do(odle) Let Me Go" belong to these categories. "Grog" was for rowing, "Doodle" was cited as capstan, and FWIW I think, based on form, that both could work for 2-pulls. In any case, I don't think they belong here.

The next few are HALYARD chanties that have one pull. They have the form of the "classic" halyard chanties, it's just that they are described as having only one pull.   The pull did NOT come at the end, as it would in a sweating up chant or sheet chanty. These are not short haul shanties! However, note the commentary:
"High O Come Roll Me Over." Thought to be originally for log-rolling. Hugill thought it should also be used for tacks/sheets. In that case, the pull would come on a different spot. If you ask me, I'd say that spot should be on "over."
"Hurrah, Sing Fare Ye Well." Just like any halyard chantey IMO, 'cept it has only one pull.
"Tommy's on the Tops'l Yard." "mainly for quick light pulls on the royal halyard" -- hence the one pull, and the probable quick tempo. In Hugill's rendering, the place of the pull varies between the first and second refrain. I am skeptical. Noted that this was also for tacks/sheets.

Although "Cheerly Man" has been put in the halyards category (Dana used it for catting anchor, though), it does not share the form of the preceding three. It really is much more like a sweating-up form, that, for whatever reason, came to be used at halyards. Hugill calls it "just faintly removed from singin' out". Perhaps because it's structure is more complex (stanzaic), it wants to go under the "full chantey" category. However, if you break down each phrase of the stanza, it's just a series of sweatin up chants.

A different form altogether is found in "Dan Dan" and "Ek Dumah." This form has a fast paced, continuous set of single-pulls. I'm not sure if I really need to say more. Just listen to it. There are a lot of pulls, meaning they were not for short jobs, i.e. they could be for longer jobs like halyards (really, I'll bet they originated as some other kind of shore-side work-song).

Sorry, but these don't really fit into a nice list!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:44 PM

Re: "chant" vs. "chaunt."

The OED is sketchier on this than I'd like, but it appears that "chaunt" was simply a variant spelling of "chant" that arose in the 18th Century for no particular reason and faded away in the 19th.

Possibly the spelling was to emphasize the "ah" or even slightly "aw" quality of the vowel in cultured English; the alternative "aa" vowel (if you see what I'm saying), which is and was the usual thing in some parts of England and all of America, may have been thought low class by some.

As for the Gibb's creole "chaun" meaning "shan't," it suggests to me that in that part of the world "sh" was often pronounced "ch" rather than the other way round. The "other way round" is what we're looking for.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:59 PM

The emphasis on the intended vowel sound, using "au", makes sense to me. I was intuitively reading it that way, so I can see why they would have done that. But of course, the vowel is not the issue!

Arggh, you're unshakable, Lighter. Every bit of my intuition is telling me that what I am seeing makes the more sense, but I do have to admit that from a purely logical standpoint, you've got me. It is scientifically useless, perhaps, but when I see "chaun" I really do hear "sh" right from the start...there are just certain conventions in English spelling that one develops and instinct for, and I think I can understand why Trelawny would have chosen "ch" spelling...but no way to prove it!!! I guess I will just have to hunt for more evidence.

And it just seems so weird that Jamaicans would be pronouncing "ch" in place of "sh".   A weird direction for a sound shift, no? But anyways, the burden is on me to prove it.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 08:12 AM

Well, I don't know why you guys couldn't get the "chaunt" and "cotton screwing" issues all resolved yesterday! Along side of dealing with "stamp 'n go" , "sing outs', "short haul" and "not short haul" work songs. I suggest that we all meet at the French Market in NO for chicory coffee and beignets and if we can't get these things resolved in a morning then we can move on to the Sazeracs and take a cruise down the River.

Some seriously good work going on here yesterday. I appreciate the recap on "Hieland Laddie" / "Donkey Riding". We'll never wear that one out! And I don't think any of this has to be all that "neat". Gibb, I can be satisfied with: "I just don't think these stamp'n'go-s cohere into any formal category....So I am not willing to create any major category out of the scanty stamp'n'go material." And into this group we'll put:

"Rise me Up
"Drunken Sailor"
"John Dameray"
"Roll the old Chariot"

I like what you say about "Drunken Sailor", in that it "appears to hail from the earlier navy days, when stamp'n' go was the thing, and when it was actually more often carried out to drumming and fifing (?)." I'm assuming that all of these are candidates for a possible "earlier" rating.

And it's good to get this reaffirmation on the cotton screwing, even if you and Charlie can't agree on which way to heave and haul:

"I am in total agreement that the cotton screwing songs were modeled on two coordinated exertions, and that is what I think may have transfered over to halyards work. Formally speaking, it would not matter whether those exertions were pushes or pulls."

The "stevedore" song came at just the right time in my afternoon's work!

And I think that this little maxim is worth putting up on the wall somewhere:

"I think that distinction (more or less primitive) is a difficult one to maintain; one is better off just describing the thing as it is."

That's one I have to keep reminding myself about all the way through. I'm glad that you brought the "sing-outs" into the discussion. That was going to be my next question. And I can appreciate this qualification:

"it is dicey business to try to distinguish these [sing-outs] from some other songs that have been given the honor (i.e. in collectors' books) as fully-fledged shanties."

And for "sweating up", we have

"Johnny Bowker"
"Paddy Doyle"
    & perhaps
"Cheerily Men"

And for tacks/sheets, with your qualifications - I especially like "curvier":

"Boney"
"Haul Away, Joe"
"Haul The Bowline"

Separating these, by form, from the following HALYARD chanties:

"High O Come Roll Me Over"
"Hurrah, Sing Fare Ye Well"
"Tommy's on the Tops'l Yard"

And introducing yet another form, which "has a fast paced, continuous set of single-pulls...they were not for short jobs, i.e. they could be for longer jobs like halyards (really, I'll bet they originated as some other kind of shore-side work-song)."

"Dan Dan"
"Ek Dumah"

I got all excited about "A Grog Time of Day" and "Doodle" and wasn't paying attention to form. They are 2-pulls. Here's another reference to "Grog time of day" that also mentions "Captain gone ashore":

http://books.google.com/books?id=WjsfAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA92&dq=Tar+Brush+Sketches&cd=1#v=onepage&q=grog%20time%20of%20day&f=false

This is from something called "Tar Brush Sketches" by a Benjamin Fiferail, published in CORRECTED PROOFS, by H. Hastings Weld, 1836. I am hesitant to say anything about the genre on this, but it does seem to be another independent attestation for "Grog Time Of Day".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 08:53 AM

John, your ex. from 1836 may explain why Dana deleted "Grog Time a Day" from his list of titles. It may have been the same as the song he called "Captain gone ashore"!

Given the date, one can probably assume that "Fiferail's" is the song Dana heard. If so, it doesn't seem to have been a one-line, one-pull shanty. I suppose it would have belonged to capstan work.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 09:27 AM

If anybody's posted this, I can't find it. From the magazine, "Waldie's Select Circulating Library," II (Dec. 24,1833), p. 581:

"The pirates pulled merrily for their schooner, singing in chorus the well known West Indian canoe song:

"The captain's gone ashore;
The mate has got the key;
Hurrah! my jolly boys,-
'Tis grog time o' day!"

The author of the story is said to be Capt. Richard Longeville Vowell. He spent over a dozen years in South America.

In light of Dana's evidence, "well known" appears to have been accurate. FWIW, you can sing the song pretty much to the tune of "Doodle Let Me Go."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 10:16 AM

FWIW, you can sing the song pretty much to the tune of "Doodle Let Me Go."

I hope it's worth something, because I have been saying that for a while now! ;)

Incidentally, I was planning to have some fun a record myself singing Grog Time o' Day later on today...after grog-time.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 10:32 AM

Grog Time / Captains Gone Ashore = pretty damn cool.

To clarify re: Grog Time, I don't know exactly how I've expressed it earlier, but it does not quite fit the "classic" "two-pull halyard" form. The timing is there, just not the "stanza." And we only have it in reference to rowing. (And the similarly formed "Doodle" was ascribed to capstan work.) However, I think it could easily be used for the 2-pull halyard maneuver. It has similarities, but it is not THE typical form.

Just speculating, too, I imagine the rowing would have been well timed to the same points where one might pull on a halyard. If that's the case (we need rowing experts now!), the pacing of rowing songs would vie with the pacing of cotton-screwing (in my estimation) as the possible structural origin of chanties. I know rowing had been discussed earlier. Now I'm wondering if there was a common work-song form that found equal applicability to rowing, jackscrew turning, and halyard hauling.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: shipcmo
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 10:39 AM

Re: grog-time
One advantage of being a ship's Captain, on the high seas, is the ability to declare Noon. And if the yardarm id adjustable (as it was on my schooner), it is possible to declare "the Sun to be below the yardarm", and anyhow, after some "trying work", It is always "Time to Splice the Mainbrace". (I actually had one on the Godspeed.)
Hi-Ho!
Geo

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 10:48 AM

Re: "ch" to "sh."

I've floated my "Gulf creole" hypothesis past a number of phonologists without success. As far as I've discovered, there is no basis to assume that "chant" was pronounced as "shant" in the proper cargo-stowing, cotton-screwing, shanty-singing locations.

However. A colleague informs me that the right switch, from "ch" to "sh" does occur in the far northeast of Scotland: Orkney, Shetland, and esp. Caithness. The Scots also have a propensity for making diminutives with "-ie," so a "chantie/ shanty" would be easily recognized as meaning "a little chant or song."

Sounds great, but it's difficult to imagine why the word "chantie/ shanty"(which we have no early evidence for up there except theoretically) would have spread from the Far North of Scotland to the Caribbean. I'm not saying it couldn't have, just that it was both quite unlikely and there's no evidence of it.

OTOH, perhaps the first people to talk about "shantying" were influenced by Caribbean rather than Parisian French, some Anglo-Afro-French patois in Martinique, for example.

Though why English-speakers might have adopted "ch" to "sh" for "chantie" just on that basis is also mysterious.

Final hypothesis: "chanty/ chantie" really *was* pronounced like "chant" until people started thinking it *must be* from French. If so, the change must have happened way back when, because the testimony of the (few) old sailors who wrote books (and commented on it) is unanimous that the pronunciation was always "shanty." Maybe that view is simplistic.

Linguists hate those exceptional cases where sounds change almost arbitrarily, but maybe that's what happened: "shanty" from "chantie" from "chant" for no good (i.e., systematic) reason. It might even be the simplest hypothesis.

So we're back to Square One as usual.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 12:22 PM

Here's a round-up of "Grog time" (which, by the way, has just struck here in EST). Hopefully I haven't made any significant mistakes.

LANDSMAN HAY (event from 1811)

Jamaica, stevedore apparently working at capstan

Grog time of day, boys
Grog time of day,
CH: Huro, my jolly boys,
        Grog time of day

[I don't know if the chorus marking is in the original. I've taken this from Hugill. In other references, this whole bit is the chorus]


SERVICE AFLOAT (published 1833, but appears to describe observations from during Napoleanic Wars, so 1815 or earlier)

Antigua, for rowing

Massa lock de door, and take away de key
Hurra, my jolly boys, grog time a day
CH: Grog time a day, my boys, grog time a day,
        Hurra, my jolly boys, grog time a day


WEST INDIA SKETCH BOOK, vol 1 (Published 1834 or earlier? and referring to events possibly as early as 1822 or earlier)

Hurra, my jolly boys
CH: Fine time o' day
We pull for San Thamas boys
CH: Fine time o' day
Nancy Gibbs and Betsy Braid
CH: Fine time o' day
Massa come fra London town
CH: Fine time o' day ETC

Here is Finn & Haddie's revival of "Fine Time o' Day":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DwR-ADStXQ


"Waldie's Select Circulating Library," II (Dec. 24,1833)

Rowing, "well known West Indian canoe song"

The captain's gone ashore;
The mate has got the key;
Hurrah! my jolly boys,-
'Tis grog time o' day!


TAR BRUSH SKETCHES (story, published 1836)

"In Callao Harbor," solo

When de cap'un go ashore,
An' de mate he hab de key,
You want a nigger steward
When it's grog time o' day
[CH:] Grog time o' day [ETC?]


TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST (original 1840 manuscript, in reference to 1834-36)

Boston-California. The task is unclear.

"Grog Time a Day" (title only)


TELEMACHUS, OR, THE ISLAND OF CALYPSO (a play, republished in 1879. First performance was given 26 Dec. 1834.)

Gives stage direction for "Music – Grog time of day, boys" Set off the coast of "a West India island." Newly composed lyrics follow.


THE ART OF BALLET (1915)

An anecdote about two sister Austrian ballet dancers touring America in 1841.

"Fanny [one of the dancers] was an especial favourite, and when the sisters left New Orleans, some niggers, who were hoisting freight from the hold of an adjacent steamboat—and niggers are notoriously apt at catching up topical subjects—thus chanted, as the vessel bearing the dancers left the wharf:

Fanny, is you going up de ribber?
        Grog time o' day
When all dese here's got Elssler feber?
        Oh, hoist away!
De Lor' knows what we'll do widout you,
        Grog time o' day
De toe an' heel won't dance widout you.
        Oh, hoist away!
Day say you dances like a fedder
        Grog time o' day
Wid t'ree t'ousand dollars all togedder.
        Oh, hoist away!


C# / Mr. NB Chisholm (1916)

Appalachians, as mnemonic aid to remember fife tune to "Napolean's Retreat"

It's grog time of day, my love
Grog time of day
When Boney crossed the Alps
It's grog time of day.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 01:15 PM

Here's another possible early chantey reference, which I stumbled on while poking around looking for the journal that Lighter had mentioned.

"Waldie's select circulating library", Volume 1 (12 March 1833)

It's an account of an Italian visitor to London, observing sailors singing in a pub, circa 1826, I believe. Apparently they were singing this idly or for fun. The impression is made that it was a work song. However, it does seem a bit highly developed for that. And the lyrics say "haul," whereas such a long form suggests to me a task like capstan work. It may have been that this was a hauling song, just not a timed-pull one -- i.e. it was a stamp 'n' go. Quite probably these were navy men, as the sentiments suggest.

Here's the first verse.

British sailors have a knack
      Haul way, yeo ho, boys!
Of pulling down a Frenchman's jack,
    'Gainst any odds, you know, boys
Come three to one, right sure am I
If we can't beat 'em, still we try
To make old England's colours fly,
    Haul away, yeo ho boys

The rest can be found here, pg. 133

Haul way, yeo ho

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 03:57 PM

Gibb-

"Haul away, yeo ho boys"

Might have been a rowing shanty. Nice to have one documented so early in the 19th century.

Oh, I ran across this on-line Nordhoff book titled NINE YEARS A SAILOR, 1866, which includes all three of his previous books: U. S. Naval Service, American and British Merchant Marine, and Whaling Service: Click here for website

There's a great description of sailors on leave in 1848 Valparaiso.

I was hoping to find my "missing" illustration of the screw-jack team but no such luck.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:05 PM

OK, for fun, here's my marriage of "Grog" and "Doodle."

GToD

I am also showing where I think the rowing might happen. The only other possibility I'd envision is constant rowing. Given the two options, I went for this style, with rests in between and which corresponds to the pace of a halyard chantey. Your thoughts, rowing-masters?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 08:03 AM

I like what you've done with "Grog Time of Day", Gibb, and thanks for the summary sheet on this. I would definitely say that this song is well attested early on and it's interesting that it survived down to at least 1916. It might be worth checking out fiddle tunes to see if Mr. Chisholm's verse shows up anywhere else.   I was trying to find out something more on Landsman Hay, but it doesn't seem that there is anything available on the net. I was just at the library yesterday and didn't think to check on that one.

I'm wondering if it's possible that what is quoted is really one song rather than two. Could the "Two sisters courted one man," part be the verse and the "Grog tme of day, boys" be the chorus? The quote itself does not really make clear whether we are dealing with two songs or two parts of one song. It just says "And the second:" Hugill does not clarify this.

Two sisters courted one man,
   Oh, huro, my boys,
And they live in the mountains,
   Oh, huro boys, O.

    Grog time of day, boys,
    Grog time of day,
       Huro, my jolly boys,
       Grog time of day.

I've not been able to find anything else resembling the two mountain dwelling sisters, although the two of them courting one man obviously has overtones of the Child ballad "The Two Sisters", which could have been sung in Jamaica, although I know of no record of that. It was a popular ballad and took many different forms such as the widely known Virginia version "The Wind and Rain".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 08:35 AM

John-

I've been assuming both bits were parts of a single song, verse with mini-chorus followed by grand chorus.

I wouldn't be surprised if this same song showed up in the lumberjack camps. However, there's no mention of such a song in Doerflinger.

Of course, while I was reviewing Doerflinger I reread his account of "the rise of shantying" and he makes reference to a small volume titled THE QUID, London, 1832, which describes shantying on a voyage to the Orient on an East India Company ship:

"Pull Away now, my Nancy, O!"
and two forebitters:

"Jemmy Taylor"

And another interesting one without title with this verse:

"Oh! if I had her,
Eh then if I had her,
Oh! how I would love her
Black although she be."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 08:54 AM

And another interesting one without title with this verse:

"Oh! if I had her,
Eh then if I had her,
Oh! how I would love her
Black although she be."

Hugill goes on to speculate whether the fragment above is related to the Scottish song "Were You Ever in Bumbarton."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 09:02 AM

I want to give an example of how my "multiple categories of multiple attestation" might work when applied to an actual chanty. From the list above of "multiple attested early chanties with documentation and lyrics", I have chosen to look at "Sally Brown".

While we know that she was sung on board the "Quebec" in April of 1937, we can't prove that she was sung on board the "Julia Ann" between San Francisco and Sydney in 1853-1855. However, by applying these categories of multiple attestation, we can get a sense of the historical and geographical spread of this chanty throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries. This gives some substance to establishing an historical context for imagining how "Sally Brown" might have been sung on board the "Julia Ann".

This is going to be a long posting so I will break it up into several parts. I have tried to be as thorough as I can within the limitations of my own library, my abilities on the internet, and my access to the library at UVA. I make no claims at being "complete" in my listings. They are meant to be thorough and suggestive. I will begin with what I call the "Category of Published Collections". This has a good deal of other information in it, which I will highlight later. For now take a look at how often and when "Sally Brown" shows up in collections of chanties.

"Sally Brown" (Part 1)

Published Collections   (24)

Davis & Tozer, 1886
Luce, 1883/89 (1902) [topsail halyards]
L.A. Smith, 1888 [capstan]
Bradford & Fagge, 1904
Masefield, 1906 [halliards, {1891-95}]
Whall, 1909-1910 [East Indiamen, {1861-1872, with shipmates who sailed before 1815},capstan-anchor; "not a hauling song"]
Patterson, 1913
Sharp, 1914 [Charles Robbins,London, pulling-chantey]
    "O Row, Heave and Go" [Mr. Allison of Perth]
    "Roll and Go" [Short of Watchet]        
Bullen, 1914 [{1869-1880}, weighing anchor & flywheel pumps]
King, 1918 [capstan]
Terry, 1921 [windless and capstan]
Colcord, 1924 [windless and capstan
Shay, 1924 [capstan, {1915}]
Frothingham, 1924
Carey, 1924/25 [George Pattison/capstan & Malcolm Forbes]
C.F. Smith, 1927 [getting up the anchor/(capstan)]
Mackenzie, 1928 [Daniel & George Hughton, Pictou, NS]
Carpenter, 1929-1955
        {1863} J.S. Scott, London, England, August, 1929
        {1864} James Wright, Leith, England
        {1867-1885} Jack Murray, Aberdeen, Scotland
        {1868} Captain Edward B. Trumbull, Salem, MA, 1927
        {1869} Robert Yeoman, Dundee, Scotland
        {1872 -whaler} James Henderson, Dundee, Scotland
        {1883} Thomas Ginovan, Bristol, England, 1928
        {1885-1902} Alex Henderson, Dundee, Scotland
        {1888-1889} George Simpson, Dundee, Scotland
        {1908} Benjamin Bright, 1929
        A.E. Foster, Sailors Snug Harbor, Staten Island, N.Y., 1927
        Francis Herreschoff, Marblehead, MA, 1927
        Stanton King, Boston, MA, 1928
        David Burrell, Scotland [capstan]
Bone, 1932
Greenleaf & Mansfield, 1933 [Capt. John Gullage, {1929}]
Doerflinger, 1951[capstan, windless, & pump] [Richard Maitland {1869}, Capt. Patrick Tayluer {1885}] - with additional bibliography
Hugill,1961 {1922-1945} [hauling, capstan] [Harding: log-rolling]
         has 5 variants of refrain
   Tobago Smith's "Walkalong, You Sally Brown" [halyards]
   also from West Indies "Tommy's on the Tops'l Yard" [halyards]                     
Harlow, 1962(1928) [ capstan, {March 19, 1875}]
Abrahams, 1974 ["Feeny Brown"]

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 09:23 AM

"Sally Brown" Part 2

Please note that the "Published Collections" on "Sally Brown" are listed chronologically by date of publication. This is often later than the actual collection or recording of the song and certainly later than the song was actually sung at sea. The dates within "{1800}" are the approximate dates having to do with actually "being at sea". More on this in a bit.

Here is the second category of multiple attestation, what I am calling "Published Mention". By this I mean mention made of a chanty in publications other than "Chanty Collections", such as travel narratives, historical documents, fiction, magazine articles, etc. I have tried to determine if and when someone has copied from a previous source to avoid duplications. This is not always easy. As far as I can tell, these are "independent" attestations, of somewhat uneven quality. Once again, these are in chronological order of publication.

Published Mention

Marryat, Capt. C.B., A DIARY IN AMERICA,1839 [windlass,halyards, {April, 1837}]
Sauzade, John S., GARRET VAN HORN; OR THE BEGGAR ON HORSEBACK, 1863, [windlass]
Adams, Robert Chamblet, ON BOARD THE "ROCKET", 1879 [as "Blow, My Bully Boys, Blow"]
Mason, John, BEFORE THE MAST IN SAILING SHIPS, 1884
Runciman, James, SKIPPERS AND SHELLBACKS, 1885
Gaunt, Mary, "The Loss of the 'Vanity'", THE ENGLISH ILLUSTRATED MAGAZINE, 1892
King, Stanton Henry, DOG-WATCHES AT SEA, 1902
Whitmarsh, H. Phelps, "The Chantey-man", HARPERS MAGAZINE, Vol. 106, Dec 1902 - May, 1903
Wragge, Clement Lindley, THE ROMANCE OF THE SOUTH SEAS, 1906
Melony, William Brown, "The Chanty-Man Sings", EVERYBODY'S MAGAZINE, July- Dec, 1915 [topsails to the masthead]
Robinson, Capt. John, "Songs of the Chantey-Man," THE BELLMAN, July 14 -August 4,1917 {1859-60}
Weld, Frederick, ed. SONGS OF THE SEA, 1919 [YMCA]
Adams, B.M. "Port Some Day", THE OUTLOOK, Vol. 127, January to April, 1921
Minnigerode, Meade, "The Laughing Elephant", NEW OUTLOOK, Vol. 128, May 4-August 31, 1921
Fletcher, R.A., IN THE DAYS OF THE TALL SHIPS, 1930
Thompson, Harold W., BODY, BOOTS, AND BRITCHES, 1939 [from "Old Man Cuffee" who died at age 82 in 1938]
Hurley, Frank & Shane Murphy, SHACKLETON'S PHOTOGRAPHER, 2001 {October, 1914}, footnote 38]
Walton, Ivan, Joe Grimm, & Loudon Guthrie Wilson, WINDJAMMERS, SONGS OF THE GREAT   LAKES SAILORS, 2002, [1932, from Harry and George Parmalee,
    capstan hauls (Capt. William E., "Billy" Clark of Buffalo) and halyards (Capt. Thomas   Hylant)]
Davis, A.K., Jr., FOLK-SONGS OF VIRGINIA, 1965, [from George Basil Hall of Middleburg, VA, August 5, 1930's?]

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 09:34 AM

"Sally Brown" Part 3

My third category is what I am calling "Historical Informants". I don't care for the word "informant", and would like an alternative. In a number of the published collections and "mentions" above, the names of actual informants are given, and sometimes the dates for when they actually went to sea or were at sea. Some of these are precise and some are approximate and some are outright guesses. I welcome corrections and better information wherever it can be found.

In this listing, the historical {dates} are given first when they are available. In a few cases I only have the earliest date of publication. These are obviously chronological.

Historical Informants

{April, 1837} Marryat, Capt. C.B. [windlass, halyards]
{1859-60} Robinson, Capt. John
{1861-1872} Whall, 1909-1910 [East Indiamen, with shipmates who sailed before 1815, capstan-anchor; "not a hauling song"]
{1863} J.S. Scott, London, England, August
{1864} James Wright, Leith, England
{late 1865 (Lighter, 2/26)} Adams, Robert Chamblet, [as "Blow, My Bully Boys, Blow"]
{1867-1885} Jack Murray, Aberdeen, Scotland
{late 1860's (Lighter 2/1)} Harding & perhaps Tobago Smith
{1868} Captain Edward B. Trumbull, Salem, MA
{1869} Robert Yeoman, Dundee, Scotland
{1869} Richard Maitland
{1869-1880} Bullen, [ weighing anchor & flywheel pumps]
{1870s} "Old Man Cuffee" who died at age 82 in 1938        
{1870s} George Pattison/capstan & Malcolm Forbes - "old men" in 1924-25
{1872} James Henderson, whaler - Dundee, Scotland
{March 19, 1875} Harlow, [capstan]
Luce, 1883/89(1902) [topsail halyards]
{1883} Thomas Ginovan, Bristol, England
{1885} Capt. Patrick Tayluer         
{1885-1902} Alex Henderson, Dundee, Scotland
{1888-1889} George Simpson, Dundee, Scotland
{1889-1901} Colcord, [windless and capstan]
{1891-95} Masefield, [halliards]
{October, 1914} Hurley, Frank & Shane Murphy, SHACKLETON'S PHOTOGRAPHER, 2001, footnote 38]
{1908} Benjamin Bright
Sharp, 1914 Charles Robbins, London, [pulling-chantey]
        Mr. Allison of Perth
        Short of Watchet
{1915} Shay, [capstan]
{1922-1945} Hugill [hauling, capstan]
A.E. Foster, Sailors Snug Harbor, Staten Island, N.Y., 1927
Francis Herreschoff, Marblehead, MA, 1927
Stanton King, Boston, MA, 1928
David Burrell, Scotland [capstan]
{1929} Greenleaf & Mansfield, [Capt. John Gullage]

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 09:55 AM

"Sally Brown" Part 4

I would count each of these "historical informants" as an independent attestation. I count about 37 people. The dates, at sea, range from 1837 to 1945. There is still only one confirmed date prior to about 1870. However, it could be said that most if not all of these men sailed with others who were much older and whose experience at sea could well have included the early 1850's. I think that it is important to consider the scope of memory in the oral tradition here.

My next category of multiple attestation has to do with the actual use of a particular chanty at sea and on shore. In some cases these categories are a little vague. For instance, Doerflinger simply puts his examples from Maitland and Tayluer in the category of "Capstan, Windless, and Pump Shanties" without being specific. I am presenting this information twice. First simply by chronological publication date, and secondly by usage, again chronologically.

Use & Function

By Chronological Publication

Marryat, Capt. C.B., 1839 [windlass, halyards, {April, 1837}]
Sauzade, John S., 1863 [windlass]
Luce, 1883/89(1902) [topsail halyards]
L.A. Smith, 1888 [capstan]
Masefield, 1906 [halliards, {1891-95}]
Whall, 1909-1910 East Indiamen, {1861-1872, with shipmates who sailed before 1815}, [capstan-anchor; "not a hauling song"]
Sharp, 1914 [Charles Robbins,London, pulling-chantey]
    "O Row, Heave and Go" [Mr. Allison of Perth]
    "Roll and Go" [Short of Watchet]        
Bullen, 1914 [{1869-1880}, weighing anchor & flywheel pumps]
Melony, William Brown,1915 [topsails to the masthead]
King, 1918 [capstan]
Terry, 1921 [windless and capstan]
Colcord, 1924 [windless and capstan
Shay, 1924 [capstan, {1915}]
Carey, 1924/25 [George Pattison/capstan & Malcolm Forbes]
C.F. Smith, 1927 [getting up the anchor/(capstan)]
Carpenter, 1929-1955 (David Burrell, Scotland [capstan])
Doerflinger, 1951[capstan, windless, & pump] [Richard Maitland {1869}, Capt. Patrick Tayluer {1885}] - with additional bibliography      
Hugill,1961 {1922-1945} [hauling, capstan] [Harding - log-rolling] has 5 variants of refrain
   Tobago Smith's "Walkalong, You Sally Brown" [halyards]
   also from West Indies "Tommy's on the Tops'l Yard" [halyards]                     
Harlow, 1962(1928) [ capstan, {March 19, 1875}]
Walton, Ivan, Joe Grimm, & Loudon Guthrie Wilson, 2002, [1932, from Harry and George Parmalee, [capstan hauls] (Capt. William E., "Billy" Clark of Buffalo) and [halyards] (Capt. Thomas Hylant)]
---
Use by category and historical chronology of time at sea

Windless, halyards, pulling, hauling:

{April, 1837} Marryat, Capt. C.B.[windlass, halyards]
Luce, 1883/89(1902) [topsail halyards]
{1891-95} Masefield, [halliards]
Sharp, 1914 Charles Robbins, London, [pulling-chantey]
        Mr. Allison of Perth
        Short of Watchet
{1889-1901} Colcord, [windless]
{1922-1945} Hugill [hauling]

Capstan, pumps:

{1861-1872} Whall, 1909-1910 [East Indiamen, with shipmates who sailed before 1815, capstan-anchor; "not a hauling song"]
{1869-1880} Bullen, [ weighing anchor & flywheel pumps]
{1870s} George Pattison [capstan]
{March 19, 1875} Harlow, [capstan]
{1889-1901} Colcord, [capstan]
{1915} Shay, [capstan]
{1922-1945} Hugill [capstan]
David Burrell, Scotland [capstan]

Not only was "Sally Brown" popular at sea and widely remembered for a long time, but it was widely used for a number of different functions. I am not able to see any particular historical pattern with regard to early/later usage. This chanty seems to have been used for multiple purposes almost from the beginning of it's recorded history.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 02:28 PM

"Sally Brown" Part 5

Versions & Variants

Each of the sources listed in the "Published Collections" category gives an independent "version" of "Sally Brown". This is somewhat the case with regard to the sources listed in the "Published Mention" category as well, but perhaps not in every case. In a number of these latter publications, we only get a title or a single verse and that verse is usually one or another of the key opening verses. I count roughly 50 different versions.

In addition to these different versions, there are also several "variants" of "Sally Brown" that have been collected, as well as the use of the "Sally Brown" lyrics with other chanties. I list them in chronological order.

{after 1865} Adams, Robert Chamblet, 1879 "Blow, My Bully Boys, Blow"
{1891-95} Masefield, 1906 "Tommy's on the Tops'l Yard" [halyards]
{1861-1872} Whall, 1909-1910 "Hilo, Johnny Brown" [halyards]
Lubbock, Basil, 1910 DEEP SEA WARRIORS "Hilo, Johnny Brown" [halyards]
Sharp, 1914 "O Row, Heave and Go" [Mr. Allison of Perth] [halyards]           
        "Roll and Go" [Short of Watchet][capstan]        
Terry, 1921(1926?) "Hilo, Johnny Brown"
Dingle, Aylward Edward, 1935, PIPE ALL HANDS, "Hilo, Johnny Brown" [halyards]
{1922-1945} Hugill,1961 "Walkalong, You Sally Brown" [Tobago Smith] [halyards]
        "Tommy's on the Tops'l Yard" [halyards]
        "Hilo, Johnny Brown" [halyards]
        possible combinations with "Shallow Brown"
{1960's} Abrahams, 1974 "Feeny Brown"

This category gives some sense of the diversity of "Sally Brown". There are at least seven different variants here and there are probably others that I have overlooked. Each source mentioned for a variant represents a particular version. This gives us about 12 more versions.   We thus have at least 62 different versions of a chanty having to do with "Sally Brown". I think that they are all independent of each other.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 07:18 PM

The following "Capstan Song," printed on shipboard during a voyage from Boston to Calcutta in 1862, is the earliest known version of "Santa Anna." (From Rev. Thomas H. Stacy, "Rev. Otis Robinson Bacheler, M.D., D.D., Fifty-Three Years Missionary to India," 1904.) Note the "General Jackson" verses:

General Taylor gained the day,
Hurrah Santa Anna!
General Taylor gained the day
All on the plains of Mexico.

He gained the day at Monterey,
Hurrah Santa Anna!
He gained the day at Monterey,
All on the plains of Mexico.

Santa Anna ran away,
Hurrah Santa Anna!
He ran away from Monterey,
All on the plains of Mexico.

General Jackson's at New Orleans,
Hurrah Santa Anna!
General Jackson's at New Orleans,
All on the plains of Mexico.

'Twas there he gave the British beans,
Hurrah Santa Anna!
'Twas there he gave the British beans,
All on the plains of Mexico.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 07:35 PM

A very early ex. of the chorus, "Roll and go," though not associated with "Sally Brown."

From Isaac Baker's diary aboard whaleship "Taskar"(Sept. 11, 1842), in Margaret S. Creighton, "Rites and Passages" (1995), p. 178:

        The Taskar is the thing to roll
        O ee [sic] roll & go
        Her bottom's round as any bowl!
        O ho roll & go

If you substitute "Sally Brown" for "Taskar," you get a mild enough stanza that even so would not likely have been "printable" in the 19th C. - or in any of the best known 20th C. shanty books, for that matter!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 07:53 PM

Not quite "Sally Brown," but sung by slave boatmen while rowing on the Cape Fear River in North Carolina and written down (with a very simple tune) in 1830. From David S. Cecelski, "The Waterman's Song" (2001):

Sally was a fine girl, ho! Sally, ho!
Sally was a fine girl, ho! Sally, ho!

The "collector," Moses A. Curtis, noted: "repeated ad infinitum and accompanied by a trumpet obligato by the helmsman."

Another case of a shanty-like rowing song.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 08:01 PM

And let's not forget "Sally Brown" by the Cuba-born Jamaican ska singer, Laurel Aitken:

//
Let me tell ya bout Sally Brown
   Sally Brown!
Let me tell ya bought Sally Brown.
    Sally Brown!
Sally Brown is a gal in town
She don't mess aroun'

Sally Brown is a slick chick
If you mess around with Sally...she'll hit you...with a kuku maka stick!

kuku kuku kuku kuku maka stick,
hit ya with a kuku maka stick!
//

That's the first "Sally Brown" song I ever heard :)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 08:25 PM

If you were a little older, you'd heave heard this one. The year: 1826.

Isaac Starr Clason, "Horace in New-York," 1826, p. 46: "The present Manager of the Chatham Garden Theatre, was formerly a Lieutenant in the British Navy. He was afterwards on the boards of the Norwich Company in England. He was principally applauded for singing a common sailors' chant in character, having a sort of 'Sally Brown, oh, ho,' chorus; and requiring the action of pulling a rope, spitting upon the hand, and the accompaniment of a horrid yell. In private life, both Mr. and Mrs. Wallack were much respected."

Clason's use of the word "chant" is almost as significant as "Sally Brown," "pulling a rope," and "a horrid yell." This could be the earliest clear reference to a "sea shanty as we know it," complete with Hugill-style "hitch"!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 09:14 PM

Lighter, thanks for the "Santa Anna" and the two (possible) references to "Sally Brown". Both of them seem to fit. I will add them to my list. That gives us two more early independent informants and two more possible variants and versions, as well as two very interesting geographical references, which I will be looking at next.

And Gibb, I immediately went and listened to the Laurel Aitken song. I like it.   So what's a "kuku maka stick"?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 09:19 PM

I forgot to look before I posted. Thanks for another reference Lighter.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 10:31 PM

Lighter-

"Wallack" seems a very interesting character, ex-Royal Navy and theatre. Somewhere in his life he also must have served in the merchant marine. Are there any more details?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 12:10 AM

Glad you asked, Charley.

Acc. to the Gentleman's Magazine of 1839, it was Wallack's brother Henry who was in training as a midshipman around 1808. The teenaged James ran off to join him and wound up sailing briefly and unofficially on the French coast with his cousin George Allen Field, who happened to be commander of the gun brig "Desperate" (great story, eh wot?). Wallack's parents induced him to return to the stage by promising him the role of Hamlet.

Wallack had a long and distinguished acting and managing career after that.

So it looks as though he may have picked up his "chant" of "Sally Brown" at sea, or at least in port, without ever "serving" in any official capacity. While it could have been as early as 1808, there's really no telling. He could have learned it at second hand much later.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 08:28 AM

Lighter-

Wouldn't it be great if his "journal" surfaced in the archives of the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich; you never know unless you enquire.

It's also got the making of a great story, not to mention another screen play featuring Johnny Depp.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 10:55 AM

Here are three possible additional variants for "Sally Brown":

{late 1860's (Lighter 2/1)} Harding, "Roll Boys, Roll" [halyards]
{March 19, 1875} Harlow, "Way Sing Sally" [hand over hand]
{1922-1945} Hugill, "Shenandoah(d)" [capstan & windlass]

Lighter, thanks for the further information on Mr. Wallack. I have him down as another independent witness, along with Mr. Baker, and Mr. Curtis. Any idea where Mr. Baker was doing his whaling?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:11 PM

"Sally Brown"   Part 6

And now, I want to look back over this information with an eye to geographical spread. Some of these references are very specific and some are more than a bit vague. In most cases it is impossible to know where a particular person heard "Sally Brown". All we know is that the person was in various places and at some point or points sang or heard the song.

Geographical Usage

{1808-?} Mr. Wallack , off the French coast
{1830} Curtis, Moses A., "Sally Was A Fine Girl", Cape Fear River, North Carolina
{April, 1837} Marryat, Capt. C.B., Portsmouth, England, on Western Ocean packet to New York
{Sept. 11, 1842} Baker, Isaac, "The Tasker is the thing to roll", a whaler
{1859-60} Robinson, Capt. John
{1861-1872} Whall, 1909-1910 East Indiamen
{1863} J.S. Scott, London, England,
{1864} James Wright, Leith, England
{late 1865 (Lighter, 2/26)} Adams, Robert Chamblet, [as "Blow, My Bully Boys, Blow"] from Boston to the E. Indies by way of    Richmond, VA, also Maryland to Denmark - voyages on two different ships. Specifically hears "Walk along, my Sally Brown" in Genoa, Italy as Virginia tobacco is being unloaded (p. 102)

{1867-1885} Jack Murray, Aberdeen, Scotland
{late 1860's (Lighter 2/1)} Harding, West Indies, British, American and Blue Nose (Nova Scotia) ships
        & perhaps Tobago Smith, West Indies
{1868} Captain Edward B. Trumbull, Salem, MA
{1869} Robert Yeoman, Dundee, Scotland
{1869} Richard Maitland, Atlantic, San Francisco, Blackball Line to Liverpool, Hong Kong, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, Scotland

{1869-1880} Bullen, [ weighing anchor & flywheel pumps] Bournemouth, England; West Indies, Gulf of Mexico ports
{1870s} "Old Man Cuffee" who died at age 82 in 1938, a whaler, from Sag Harbor, NY        
{1870s} George Pattison/capstan & Malcolm Forbes - "old men" in 1924-25, Kangaroo Island, South Australia
{1872} James Henderson, whaler - Dundee, Scotland
{March 19, 1875} Harlow, [capstan], from Boston to Melbourne and Sydney, Java, and back to NY
Luce, 1883/89(1902) [topsail halyards]
{1883} Thomas Ginovan, Bristol, England
{1884} John Mason, [anchor capstan] San Francisco, CA
{1885} Capt. Patrick Tayluer, from Boston, throughout the British Empire, Africa
{1885-1902} Alex Henderson, Dundee, Scotland
{1888-1889} George Simpson, Dundee, Scotland
{1889-1901} Colcord, [windless and capstan] Portland (ME)-Buenos Aires-Rosario- Boston, New York-Penang-Singapore-Shanghai-Hong Kong-New York; Portland (ME)-Buenos Aires-Rosario-Boston, New York-Port Elizabeth-Durban-Newcastle(NSW)-Mollendo-Astoria-Portland(OR)-Santa Rosalia-Victoria(BC)-Tacoma, New York-Hong Kong-New York

{1891-95} Masefield, [halliards]
{1902} King, Stanton Henry, [windlass] Philadelphia, on the Delaware River, outward bound to Japan
{1908} Benjamin Bright
{October, 1914} Hurley, Frank & Shane Murphy, Shackleford Expedition to Antartica        
Sharp, 1914 Charles Robbins, London, [pulling-chantey]
        Mr. Allison of Perth
        Short of Watchet
{1915} Shay, [capstan], off the coast of Yucatan (?)
Terry, 1921 [windless and capstan]
{1922-1945} Hugill [hauling, capstan], Liverpool, England; Cape Horn, West Indies, Cape Verde Island
A.E. Foster, Sailors Snug Harbor, Staten Island, N.Y., 1927
Francis Herreschoff, Marblehead, MA, 1927
Stanton King, Boston, MA, 1928 (from Carpenter)
David Burrell, Scotland [capstan]
{1929} Capt. John Gullage of Newfoundland
{1960's} Abrahams, 1974 ["Feeny Brown"] Tobago/St. Kitts

Does anyone have geographical information on the following:

Captain Robinson
Admiral Luce
John Masefield

And is there a coherent account anywhere of Hugill's travels? Please feel very free to make corrections on any of this and to add to it as you've been doing.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:33 PM

Here is the link for the "Rocket" account (actually on board the "Dublin" - I think), of hearing "Walk along, My Sally Brown" in Genoa, Italy, while tobacco from Virginia is being unloaded:

http://books.google.com/books?id=7v1IAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA102&dq=Walk+along,+my+Sally+Brown&cd=2#v=onepage&q=Walk%20along%2C%20my%20Sal

Unfortunately no words are given so we can't know for sure is this is the same "Walkalong, You Sally Brown" that Hugill got from Harding much, much later. But it does count as another variant.

There are two geographical references to San Francisco:

{1869} Richard Maitland, San Francisco (it is impossible to know whether Maitland heard/sang "Sally Brown" in San Francisco or not on that trip.
{1884} John Mason, [anchor capstan] San Francisco, CA (This is a clear identification):

http://books.google.com/books?id=JirozwWDDaMC&pg=PA66&dq=Sally+Brown+was+a+bright+mulatto&lr=&cd=8#v=onepage&q=Sally%20Brown%20w

Later Mason again mentions "Sally Brown" sung while heaving anchor on the Mersey:

http://books.google.com/books?id=JirozwWDDaMC&pg=PA118&dq=She+drinks+rum+and+chews+tobacco&lr=&cd=7#v=onepage&q=She%20drinks%20r

At least we know she was in San Francisco, even it the date is 1884.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 08:25 PM

John-

Unfortunately we don't have a clue whom C. Fox Smith collected her traditional shanties from, including "Sally Brown" which she had this to say in A BOOK OF SHANTIES, © 1927, p. 20:

"It was usually sung when getting up the anchor; in Mr. Cecil Sharp's collection it is given as a hauling shanty, but I have never come across a sailor who had heard it so used."

The shanty lyrics she provides would certainly make a fine halyard shanty, however:

Sally Brown she's a bright mulatto --
Way-AY, roll and GO!
She drinks rum and chews tobacco --
Spend my MONEY on Sally BROWN!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 09:01 AM

"Sally Brown" Part 7

I want to turn my attention this morning to what I have loosely called:

"Genre Usage"

Way back on the first of February, I put up a tentative list of different "genres". This is not a very good word for this, but maybe it will work for now. Here is the post:

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=374#2827215

I was trying to see how a chanty might have traveled from one area of life at sea to another, or at least to see how widespread it might have been. What we managed to demonstrate was that the documentation for the use of these chanties by Slave Traders, Pirates, Whalers, etc. is pretty slim to non-existent. But it did lead us on to a good look at the African American influence on chanties and to what I think is a very fruitful hypothesis by Gibb about the origin of "chanties, proper". [ If you are just coming to this thread, you will have to take the time to back up and catch up.]

My category of "Genre Usage" is a revisiting of this earlier attempt. When we look at "Sally Brown" in this light, we do turn up some interesting information. Looking at the "Historical Informants" list, here is what I have.

{1830} Curtis, Moses A., "Sally Was A Fine Girl", Cape Fear River, North Carolina as a rowing song

note: I wonder if "Sally Brown" might have begun as a "rowing song".*

{April, 1837} Marryat, Capt. C.B., Portsmouth, England, on Western Ocean packet to New York
{Sept. 11, 1842} Baker, Isaac, "The Tasker is the thing to roll", a whaler
{1861-1872} Whall, 1909-1910 East Indiamen
{late 1865 (Lighter, 2/26)} Adams, Robert Chamblet, "Walk along, my Sally Brown" in Genoa, Italy as Virginia tobacco is being unloaded.
{late 1860's (Lighter 2/1)} Harding, West Indies -Jamaica in the 1930's as a "log-rolling" song
{1869} Richard Maitland, Atlantic, San Francisco, Blackball Line to Liverpool, Hong Kong, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, Scotland
{1869-1880} Bullen, [ weighing anchor & flywheel pumps] Bournemouth, England; West Indies, Gulf of Mexico ports
{1870s} "Old Man Cuffee" who died at age 82 in 1938, a whaler, from Sag Harbor, NY        
{1870s} George Pattison/capstan & Malcolm Forbes - "old men" in 1924-25, Kangaroo Island, South Australia
{1872} James Henderson, whaler - Dundee, Scotland
{March 19, 1875} Harlow, [capstan], from Boston to Melbourne and Sydney, Java, and back to NY
{1884} John Mason, [anchor capstan] San Francisco, CA
{1885} Capt. Patrick Tayluer, from Boston, throughout the British Empire, Africa
{1889-1901} Colcord, [windless and capstan] Portland (ME)-Buenos Aires-Rosario-Boston, New York-Penang- Singapore-Shanghai-Hong Kong-New York; Portland (ME)-Buenos Aires-Rosario-Boston, New York-Port Elizabeth-Durban-Newcastle(NSW)-Mollendo-Astoria-Portland(OR)-Santa Rosalia-Victoria(BC)-Tacoma, New York-Hong Kong-New York
{1902} King, Stanton Henry, [windlass] Philadelphia, on the Delaware River, outward bound to Japan
{October, 1914} Hurley, Frank, Shackleford Expedition to Antartica        
{1915} Shay, [capstan], off the coast of Yucatan (?)
{1922-1945} Hugill [hauling, capstan], Liverpool, England; Cape Horn, West Indies, Cape Verde Island
{1929} Capt. John Gullage of Newfoundland
{1960's} Abrahams, 1974 ["Feeny Brown"] Tobago/St. Kitts

We have "Sally" as a rowing song in the Tidewater region of North Carolina. We have her at least known by three whalers: Baker, Cuffee, and Henderson. She sailed on the Western Ocean packets: Marryat and Maitland. She was used by the East Indiamen (Whall). She was used for loading and unloading according to Adams in Genoa, Italy. She was used in Gulf Ports trade (Harding, Bullen, Shay), and in the West Indies (Harding, Bullen, Hugill, Abrahams). She probably made it out to the Far East (Adams, Maitland, Harlow, Colcord, King). And she did go around the Horn to San Francisco according to Mason. And she was used in the Australian trade according to Harlow, Pattison, Forbes, Colcord, and perhaps Hugill (did he sail to Australia?). She was known in Canada by Gullage and probably traveled there with others (Maitland), and could have been used in the timber business there. And finally she was perhaps used on a trip of exploration to Antartica (she shows up in a footnote to the Shackleford Expedition. [ I haven't seen this book and don't know what the footnote is referring to.]

Once again, it is probably safe to say that she got around, and was popular with all kinds of folks, for most of the 19th century and on into the 20th century.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 09:23 AM

"Sally Brown" Part 8

I think my next category for multiple attestation, which I have called "Historical Usage" has already been covered above by the the "Genre" discussion. It was my intention to focus "Historical Usage" on the various commercial enterprises that were current at sea in the 19th century and later, and to see where "Sally" put in an appearance. Here is a summary of that information.

We know she was being used on board the Western Ocean packet liners in the 1830's. She might have been used in the whaling industry. She was used by the East India Traders. And she was used by the Tobacco Traders from Virginia to Italy. She was probably used in the Gulf Port, probably by the Cotton Traders. And she was known in the West Indies (and may well have originated there), which would have possibly put her in the sugar, rum and molasses trade, (as well as maybe on board the Slave Traders and with some Pirates as well). She was used in the lumber business in the West Indies and Honduras.

She sailed to the Far East at least to Java, and probably to China and Japan with the tea ships. She went around Cape Horn in the San Francisco trade, at least in the 1880's. And she went to Australia with that trade. Since she was known in Canada (Newfoundland), she could have been involved with the timber traders there and the coastal traders down to the West Indies. One might say that "Sally Brown" was a vital asset to the maritime commerce of the 19th century.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 09:56 AM

John-

You were asking about Hugill's voyages as a sailor. One might be able to piece together what ports he had visited from his book SAILORTOWN, Routledge & Kegan Paul, London, UK, © 1967. He did in short travel the world, including the Orient, the west coast of South America and the Pacific Northwest.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:20 AM

Thanks, Charley, for the suggestion about Hugill. I found it strange that there doesn't seem to be what I would call a "coherent" account of his time at sea, *that I have come across*. I don't have his SAILORTOWN, and I suspected that this might be the best source. But you would think someone might have summed it up. I will leave that job to somebody else.

Here's the beginning of my last category, on "Sources".

"Sally Brown" Part 9 (a)

This final category of multiple attestation has to do with the issue of "sources" for a particular chanty that come from places other than the world of sea chanties. Here I am thinking about the following:

The shape/form of the song
The tune or tunes used by the song
The lyrics that become attached to the song
Actual songs that may have served either as models or as actual sources for the chanty

With regard to the first, Gibb has called "Sally Brown" one of those African American work songs that take the shape of "Call-response-call-response form (with the 2 "pull points" per response)". Hugill says that it has the shape of a "hauling" song, and we know that it was used as a halyards song, and for pulling. It was also used at the capstan, the windlass, and pumps, and unloading cargo. And if the song noted by Moses Curtis in 1830 on the Cape Fear River in North Carolina is a version or perhaps even an antecedent of "Sally Brown", then it was also used for rowing. So the form of "Sally Brown" was adaptable, and this may be one of the reasons for its popularity and its widespread survival over the last two hundred years or so.

The basic tune of "Sally Brown" apart from it's variants, seems to have remained fairly stable throughout its history. I am no musicologist and can't even read music notation so I will have to leave this area to someone more qualified. The differences that I can see in the various notations seem to fall within what one might normally expect with the actual usage of such a song. I would say that the song is characterized musically by its first chorus "Way, hey, roll and go!", and it often took this as its title.

In listening to contemporary renditions of this song, it seems to lend itself rather easily to "celtic" interpretations. This might suggest that the tune originally came from Irish or British sources. However, for me this mainly shows up in the second refrain, and I think that it gets elaborated somewhat in a "celtic" direction sometimes and that it's not really possible to go backwards with this reasoning. But this song may be a candidate for one of those Afro-American/Irish combinations. One could speculate that the elements of the tune arrived one day in Jamaica and was rounded out there with the unforgettable images of "Sally Brown" herself.

We have an abundance of different lyrics for this song. And here we enter into a murky and difficult area of discussion. I would like to refer you first of all to Gibb's comments on his Youtube version of "Sally Brown" for an introduction to this issue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVUn_v3jIZA

It seems that at some point in the history of the use of "Sally Brown", the issue of "political correctness" entered the picture. What is interesting to me is to try to figure out when that might have happened, or perhaps more accurately, how often! When I was going through my collection of chanty CDs, I was surprised to find that I had very few recordings of "Sally Brown". I wondered why this might be the case. She just doesn't show up on a lot of the more standard or popular collections. I suspect that even though there are politically correct historical versions of this song available in the literature, that chanty singers may have felt some discomfort about singing this song. In today's terms, it is racist, sexist, and exploits women as prostitutes. And it does this by combining all of these things into the inimitable image of "Sally Brown". And then some versions throw in her daughter for good measure! The language is definitely 19th century and blunt. One might argue that it is hard to sing this song in any kind of "authentic" fashion without falling into a nest of minefields.

But, is this just a contemporary problem? In some versions, "Sally" is a white girl with blue eyes from New York City. Was there a tendency in the latter part of the 19th century to move this song away from its roots, and white-wash it? Or is this merely a contemporary concern. I think that this part of the discussion may be for another time or even another thread. I suppose if one could actually document a "white-washing shift" over the course of the 19th century, one might, using Marrayt's version as a benchmark, be able to put different sets of lyrics into different time categories. However, I think this won't work, because the "Sally Brown was a bright mullato" version remained popular alongside of other versions to the very end of the days of sail, and continues to be popular today. As has been argued by others previously, it is very hard to determine very much about the history of a chanty from its lyrics.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:28 PM

Great stuff here!! Very exciting.

John, with your Part 9a you're moving into dangerous waters...there be pyrates and sea monsters...but it is my favorite place, and one where, in my opinion, discussions too infrequently venture.

Musical form is the main part. Hugill, for example, does a poor job addressing this. It is reflected by his wacky organizational scheme which goes, "oh, and hey, another song that mentions the name 'Johnny' is this one here..." He is very text-centric / lyric-centric despite his comments about the floating nature of chantey texts. To my knowledge, chanties have yet to be "sorted" on the basis of musical analysis -- by which I suppose I mean melodic and rhythmic content. (We have been sorting them by musical form, in a way, by talking about call and response, choruses, etc, though that is also partly textual.)

There are several difficulties. One is the relative high ambiguity of musical material in "pointing" towards this or that cultural sphere, region, etc. It's a bit like asking what languages a certain letter combination, say /bla/, belongs to. That could suggest English to some ("black"), but Arabic to another ("tabla"), etc etc. In other words, while these features would seem to exclude some origins, they also *include* far too many. By way of example, to me, "Sally Brown" doesn't evoke anything "celtic" in its tune. But even if I manage to put my finger on and explain what makes it sound like it belongs to "African-America" to me, that is very far from proving it is not "celtic." Consequently, I've no reasonable cause to doubt that it sounds Celtic to John. Musical language -- or at least the parts that are easily notated -- is so limited that it must necessarily be shared among cultural groups and it cannot tell us so much without more clues 'n' context.

As we well know, those clues don't come through in simple music notation. What's more, the music notation in the older texts was even less able to cope with representing features that might give clues. I suspect, for example, that some of the weird chromatic passages in some collector's notations, reflects the fact that people had yet to deal with the issue of "blue notes." To hear the singing of such "blue notes" might influence us to strongly suspect an African-American source. But set down on paper as a bland, equal-tempered (think piano) pitch, the "spelling" of the notes might make the phrase look equally Italian (or whatever).

It is not hopeless, however. One need not try to pin a certain music form to a certain culture group. Again, I like "African-American"....which in my mind shades off dangerously close to just "American," for its inherent ambiguity and mixed nature. The early stars of the minstrel stage and its composers were mainly of Irish descent. It seems that they were trying to evoke songs of Blacks on one hand, but were very much speaking through their own, familiar musical language, on the other. And I've really no idea if one could say whether these tunes could be said to have this or that degree of this or that ethnic music to them...only that they were something in themselves that one might study. I am sure that if one were to analyze all the chanties musically, some kind of groupings would emerge. These may not be very clear with regards to ethnicity or geography, but they may say something about source genres or time periods.

Incidentally, I had delivered a paper about Hugill's chanties at a conference in Liverpool. Much of it happened to be about issues of representation that John is touching upon... and , even more incidentally, if was frustrating because I felt much of my audience did not want to engage the issues because they were quite biased towards the very idea of me trying to tell them anything about chanties. After all, the English are the only proper shanty-singers, right?! It was funny that out of a room of scholars who are ostensibly trained to study music and culture objectively, regularly discovering that musical phenomena are not what they seem in popular knowledge, that this birth-right sort of confidence ("We know all about shanties") would block a dialogue. So I was actually refreshed to get a question from a non-British person (some one from continental Europe) who was of a more musicologist sort of bent, and who was mostly just curious if, after learning Hugill's shanties, I had observed any specific, quantifiable musical characteristics. At least that was something relatively objective to talk about. (And if you'll permit me one tiny moment of negativity: I am so glad we have a topic like "shanties" to talk about here, as opposed to the dire "What is folk?" discussions on Mudcat that seem hopelessly confounded by people's notions of their cultural heritage.)

I want to mention two other anecdotes/examples, just to think about (not directed towards any really specific point). First is that I've a subscriber to my YouTube channel, from North America, who I've noted consistently responds (i.e. comments) more favourably to chanties that I feel have an "American" bent to their melodies. And behind this particular notion of American goes the musical language that emerged from African-American culture. I'd guess that this person is not consciously aware of these musical traits, but that rather they are responding, as an American, to something familiarly American.

Second anecdote is the case of Dick Maitland, who sang for Doerflinger. The way he allegedly sang "Leaving of Liverpool" is quite distinct for a certain melodic pattern. He uses a pattern of "DO ti sol" that, I feel, is rare in these songs. So rare, perhaps, that it was counter-intuitive to the revival singers who picked up the song. I'm not sure who was the first, but whoever rendered it from the printed page accidently -- although I'm sure musical inclination was the influence -- changed the pattern. And what we have today im the revived form is much more "agreeable" to the common "ear." I was thinking about this again recently because I was trying to learn a variation on "Banks of Newfoundland" sung by Maitland. It contained the same queer melodic pattern. I'd venture to guess that this was something particular about Maitland's musical language -- it is that distinct. (Analogous to a certain pattern that I hear in some Jamaican singers of the 60s, which sounds like they'd been copying the personal "language" of Curtis Mayfield!)

Something *can* be done with musical analysis. However, we are crippled by the poor notations. A good number of chanties in Hugill's modern text are just flat our wrong in their notation. It has nothing to do with singers' variation; it is pure incompetence. But the usual, basic issue is the simplicity of notation that wipes away what may have been distinctive, clue-giving traits. As for recordings: Of the recordings of living chantey singers that exist, I am skeptical of their range. Not only the fact that they are invariably far past their prime, and even farther from actually context (Who yelps out a blood-curdling halyard chantey whilst sitting in an easy chair across from a genteel folk-song collector?), but the historical time period, their ethnicity, etc make them limited.

Briefly: The issues of political correctness, mimetic awkwardness, white-washing (or blacking-up, as the case may be!), and other ethnicity confusion and how they have affected the course of chantey-singing is one of my great interests... and I think best for another thread :) Still, it helps some to be aware of the issues, when analyzing data. But ultimately, the value of this kind of consideration is that it helps us not to make assumptions...but doesn't tell us anything positively. Whall might have preferred blue-eyed damsels because he was a bit racist and wanted to change the essence of the text, but equally likely was that Sailor John (of any stripe) just felt like loving a blue-eyed gal at that moment.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 09:43 AM

I don't think we have this "Sally Brown" reference (?)

SEA DRIFT, 1858.
The author, Hercules Robinson, served in British warships against Napoleon. He states that when he first shipped, as a young boy, the officers just shouted commands through speaking trumpets.

'They were not allowed to do their work with such a song as Dickens commemorates--

"Oh Sally Brown, Sally Brown, oh!
She won't have a Yankee sailor, oh!
Cos she loves the nigger tailor, oh!" '

Sea Drift

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 10:50 AM

"Sally Brown" Part 9 (b)

Thanks, Gibb. I appreciate your fine response. It goes to the heart of some of the questions I was trying to raise in my last post. I realize that I moved into some deep water full of all kinds of things and that I am not at all competent to navigate them. So I appreciate having a pilot.

With regard to the "music" issue in all of this, I keep thinking about what Bronson did with the Child ballad collection tunes. It was usually way beyond me how he grouped different tunes into different "families", but it seemed important, and when I actually focused down on a particular version it was fascinating to discover the relatives. And in some cases, it did establish a link between a Virginia tune, say, and one from England. But of course, one of the great lacunas in Child's work, along with Sharp's work in the Southern Appalachians, and thus also in Bronson, although I think he tried to pay attention to it, was the absence of "Black" music. There is one verse of "Barbara Allen" collected by Sharp right here in Nellysford from an old, ex-slave woman. If only he had taken down the whole song and it had survived!

My comment about the "celtic" sound of "Sally Brown" has more to do with some revivalist interpretations, and especially their instrumental breaks with banjos and fiddles and accordions and penny whistles and bohdrans, etc., than with my own sense of the song. The tune gets twisted in these breaks and seems to move away from itself.

On the other hand, as much as I might wish that I did know more about Jamaican and West Indian music forms, styles and history, I just don't and will have to leave that to someone else. My own personal sense is that this song is West Indian in origin, and certainly - for me - not from Liverpool, but I can't prove it.

Going to the question of origins and predecessors, if we accept for the moment that Mr. Curtis' account of hearing "Sally was a fine girl" as a rowing song on the Cape Fear River in North Carolina, in 1830, as an early version of what became "Sally Brown", it raises some intriguing questions. And I'm thinking about the songs in Parrish's book about the Georgia Sea Islanders. While she doesn't have a version of "Sally Brown", she has other songs that were used for rowing. I've never known quite where to place these Georgia Sea Islander songs in my chronological picture. Do they pre-date the use of of these worksongs as chanties at sea later, or have the chanties come back ashore and been adapted for rowing? Or, is it likely that the situation back and forth was always a lot more fluid as it surely must have been with the dock-side loading songs.

Mr. Curtis has (in his own hand with music notation!}:

        "Sally was a fine girl,
        Ho, Sally, ho!"

Seven years later, Marryat has:

        "Sally Brown, of Buble Ally,
        Oh! Sally Brown.
        Sally Brown - oh! my dear Sally.
        Oh! Sally Brown."

To me there seems to be a definite relation. And if you - not me - put in the pulls, maybe that tells us even more. But it doesn't tell me which way the current was flowing. In fact I would probably conclude that some version or versions of the song was being used both at sea and on the river at the same time. Again, the parallels with the dock-loading songs are obvious. We have "Sally Brown" raising the anchor in Portsmouth in 1837 and roughly 30 years later we have her unloading tobacco in Genoa, Italy!

And then we have Mr. Isaac Baker the whaler singing in 1842:

"The Taskar is the thing to roll
O ee roll & go
Her bottom's round as any bowl!
O ho roll & go!"

While he was overtly singing about his good ship the "Tasker", it is not hard to see how this imagery was transferred over to (or from) "Sally Brown". In fact this passage shows up in a contemporary study that was discussing the sexual fantasy life of whalers and how they tended to conflate their thoughts about their beloved ships and women. It is hard to know whether this verse reflects an earlier stream of song that fed into "Sally Brown" or ongoing parallel traditions or is simply independent of it entirely. I think it is definitely connected myself.

And thanks to Lighter we have that delightful note about Mr. Wallack's performance of "Sally Brown" complete with "yelps", from possibly as early as 1808, but at least by about 1825. While it is impossible to know where Wallack learned this song, this note would indicate that "Sally Brown" was fairly well known as a recognizable song that early.

So we have two definite sightings before 1850 and two probables/maybes. And perhaps we have some hints about sources or at least parallel uses. And it's interesting that these two fragments from Curtis and Baker show up from other contexts, rowing and whaling. I think we can almost catch a glimpse of some of the different pieces that came together to form "Sally Brown". I realize that this may be overly optimistic and that my "pieces" post-date what is clearly an already formed chanty but it is a fact that oral traditions continue right along side of written ones, and just because we have written notice in 1808/1825 and in 1837, doesn't mean that these other two fragments weren't passed down from earlier periods.

And, Gibb thanks for the addition from Hercules Robinson! I had a power outage while I was working on this post and lost half of it and had to reconstruct and didn't recheck Mudcat in between. That's a great find. It seems like I've seen that "Dickens commemoration" somewhere. I'll have to go back through my unorganized pile of stuff.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 01:11 PM

Well, I haven't come across any clear reference to "Sally Brown" the song in Dickens, but I'll keep looking into that. However, I did come across two other rather interesting items. First of all, I am wondering if there could be any connection between our "Sally Brown" the sea chanty lady, and this poem by Thomas Hood called "Faithless Sally Brown", published in THE UNIVERSAL SONGSTER in 1825, as "Young Ben, the Carpenter, and Sally Brown":

http://books.google.com/books?id=VWQLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA11&dq=Universal+Songster+%22Ben+the+Carpenter%22&lr=&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=fals

It shows up in a number of publications throughout the 19th century and was apparently very popular. It has one line in it which goes: "Oh Sally Brown, Oh Sally Brown". Of course the influence could have gone the other way and Mr. Hood may have been aware of the sea song "Sally Brown". And, once his poem was written, it may have reacted back on the chanty. Anyone have thoughts on this? I can't exactly tell what "minstrel" means in this context. Was his poem picked up and used by the blackface minstrels? Or was there a broader meaning to the word back then in England.

The second interesting item is from one of the speeches of Abraham Lincoln, given to "the Springfield Scott Club" on August 14, 26, 1852, in which he quotes a verse from Captain Marryat's "Sally Brown" referring to her as a "bright mulatter". Lincoln says,

"Now, should Pierce ever be President, he will, politically speaking, not only be a mulatto, but he will be a good deal darker one than Sally Brown." !

http://books.google.com/books?id=_ZxLW2uomIgC&pg=PA157&dq=%22Oh+Sally+Brown%22++Collected+Works+of+Abraham+Lincoln&lr=&cd=1#v=on

This doesn't indicate that Lincoln knew "Sally Brown" as a chanty, per se, but that he was familiar with Marryat's work, which apparently was also popular. However, the fact that Lincoln quotes this verse in a speech would indicate that his audience would know what he was talking about - maybe - with regard to the song itself. Here is another discussion about Marryat from TAIT'S EDINBURGH MAGAZINE of 1839:

http://books.google.com/books?id=reERAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA554&dq=%22Oh,+Sally+Brown%22&cd=6#v=onepage&q=%22Oh%2C%20Sally%20Brown%22&f=f

The interesting thing here is the reference to "the Yankee salt-water lyric of Sally Brown". Does this indicate a sense that this was a song of American origin? There are many quotes of Marryat's whole passage on "Sally Brown" in the literature of the time according to Google.

The existence of Hood's popular poem, the popularity of Marryat's book and account of "Sally Ann" and the example of Lincoln's use of the latter in a political speech, raises the interesting question of the influence of published works on the oral tradition of "Sally Brown". Using the examples of both "broadside ballads" and published versions of the "Child ballads" and their influence on the "folk process" of the singing of these songs in the 19th century, and later, we might get some sense of how this worked in the realm of chantydom as well. However, I'd be the first to say that I cannot document any direct links here. There does seem to be the potential for some muddying up of the waters though.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:13 PM

I've found another great source to consider re: the "genesis of chanteys" topic. I don't seem to remember it being discussed before.

It is fiction, and the date is 1869, so there is that possibility it was drawn from elsewhere. But whatever the case, the material is great.

THE ARK OF ELM ISLAND by Elijah Kellogg

The narrator keeps remarking on Black people's tendency to sing as they work. "...a nigger can no more work without a song, than a Frenchman can talk if you tie his hands."

The Ark has a crew of "Portland [Maine] darkies," and amongst them is a "chanty-man" named Isaiah Phillips.

The work songs, "habe no merit of composition, being the merest trash."

"The songs of the negro seamen generally refer to their labor-- hoisting or stowing molasses, or screwing cotton, which is severe labor, where unity of effort is of the first importance; and here the negro's accurate ear renders them most effective, and they will accomplish more, with less fatigue to themselves, than white men....they will put in the queerest quirks and quavers, but all in time."

An anecdote is told, during which a work song is quoted -- a variant of what Hugill called "Hooker John":

"Eberybody he lub someting
    Hoojun, John, a hoojun
Song he set de heart a beating
    Hoojun, John, a hoojun"

That's the first reference I recall seeing to that chantey. Usually people take Hugill's text and start speculating what "hooker" is. (I myself have speculated it was "hoosier.")

The narrator mentions ad-libbing.

The crew was manning the windlass, and "Isaiah" sings, intriguingly, what is obviously a variation of "Stormalong":

"Wind blow from de mountain cool
    O, stow me long
Mudder send me to de school
    Stow me long, stow me"
[etc -- more, completely incidental verses]

Later, the cook songs a song, just for joy. It is none other than one of my favourite chanties, "Hilo, boys, a hilo."

Then the workers "struck up a still quicker tune, intermingling with the words most singular yells and quavers."

They thn haul out with a hand over hand chantey that I don't recognize, with a chorus of "Hand ober hand, O"

THEN they walk away with the rope. The song quoted os another "Fire down below," yet one that looks like it could have been "The Sailor Fireman" cited by Hugill.

Much later in the story, while not at work, someone sings "Highland laddie" (pg 255).

Interesting that nowhere are the songs referred to as "shanties/chanties," although, as in Nordhoff, "chanty-man" is referred to (twice). It is after Clarke mentioned "chanty-man" in 1867, and before Alden finally says "shanties" in 1869.

The passage starts around pg 117

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:43 PM

addendum:
Apparently it is thought by some that "hoosier" (well, the Indiana/Kentucky reference) comes from "hoojin." So maybe my guess at "hoosier john" (i.e instead of hooker john) wasn't so far off!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 04:43 PM

Gibb-

Great find! And it's interesting for those of us familiar with the Black sailors who were long time residents of Portland, Maine, to see them documented at least in some literary fashion.

I've learned to associate the term "hooker" as used by sailors as generally referring to ships: i.e., "I'll not sail in that old hooker again!" The "hook" itself is a reference to the ship's anchor.

Edwin J. Brady also composed a nautical poem titled "Sally Brown."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 07:59 PM

Well, this is my third try for this post. Gibb, that truly is a great fine. I really like "Oh Stow Me Along, Stow Me". All of those songs had to come from somewhere. I don't think they could be a product of pure fiction. Especially since they show up later in the chanty tradition.

Charley, do you have a link for the Brady poem? I think I remember you mentioning him earlier. I'd like to see that. I find it fascinating that "Sally" has a literary tradition of her own!

And Gibb, I'm glad you were able to get some satisfaction on the "hoosier" issue.   I tried to track that one down and got completely swamped by those folks from Indiana. I still don't quite understand how they got to be "hoosiers". I know that it doesn't have anything to do with football! But then, "Roll Tide!" is not a sea chanty either. I hope you guys are having a fine Saturday night.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 08:10 PM

John-

Sure! I've been posting a new set of nautical poems to the Edwin J. Brady thread here at Mudcat and here's a link to "Sally Brown": click here for poem

It's really a shame that we can't talk with Brady but he really was a good observer of sailors and stevedores in and around the docks at Sydney and Melbourne in the late 1890's and early 1900's.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 09:30 PM

Thanks, Charley, for the link. I enjoyed that. And, Gibb, I didn't mean to "fine" you, but to thank you for that great "find".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 10:29 PM

Here's another nice source that mentions riverboat songs that may be connected wih our chanties. These were observed in 1853 by Frederick Law Olmsted, in his A JOURNEY IN THE SEABOARD SLAVE STATES.

While going up the Red River to Shreveport, LA, he jotted down these. The Black boat-hands sang, (p608 ff.)

"Ye see dem boat way dah ahead.
CH: Oahoiohieu
De San Charles is arter 'em, dey mus go behine
CH: Oahoiohieu"
[etc -- several more incidental verses]

This song ALSO looks to me like "The Sailor Fireman." It has the right rhythm, and the chorus is close enough. The chorus also reminds me of another river song, "Lindy Lowe", and playing with the vowels in the word "Ohio."

Another song quoted seems to have a phrase similar to "Jonny Come Down to Hilo":

"Ime gwine away to-morrow.
   Oh, John, come down in de holler
Ime gwine away to marry
    Oh, John, come down in de holler"
[etc]

Several verse lyrics are reminiscent of "Shallow Brown".

Elsewhere in the book (pg 26) the author describes a funeral service in which, as people were filling in the grave, an "old negro" "raised a hymn which soon became a confused chant" in call and response fashion "in the manner of sailors heaving at the windlass."
   
On pg 394 there's some yodeling and "rolling the cotton down" of a sort!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 11:59 AM

Gibb-

I am fascinated with the "chanties" printed in THE ARK OF ELM ISLAND. They all seem traditionally based, although what's called "The Walking Song" is modified to work with the story. Obviously the Rev. Kellogg was very familiar with this type of music. I hope you take no offense, given your discovery of these songs, but I've decided to post the lot of them here:

THE ARK OF ELM ISLAND, by Rev. Elijah Kellogg, published by Lee & Shepherd, Boston, Massachusetts, US, © 1869, p. 128

ISAIAH'S SONG
(warping up to the dock).

Wind blow from de mountain cool,
O, stow me long!
Mudder send me to de school;
Stow me long, stow me!

Den I stow myself away,
O, stow me long!
Way, way to de Isle ob May;
Stow me long, stow me!

Go ashore to see de town,
O, stow me long!
Hear de music, walk aroun';
Stow me long, stow me!

Dere I hear Miss Dinah sing,
O, stow me long!
Washin' linen at de spring;
Ha-a, stow me long,
Stow me long, stow me!
Ha-a, stow me long,
Stow me long, stow me!

Straight I lub Miss Dinah Gray,
O, stow me long!
Dinah lub me, so she say;
Stow me long, stow me!
Get her necklace, get her ring,
O, stow me long!

Happy nigger, shout and sing;
Stow me long, stow me!
Wind a blowin' fresh and free,
O, stow me long!

Vessel ready for de sea;
Stow me long, stow me!
See de tear in Dinah's eye,
O, stow me long!

Berry sorry see her cry.
Ha-a, stow me long,
Stow me long, stow me!
Ha-a, stow me long,
Stow me long, stow me!

Tink ob Dinah ebery day,
O, stow me long!
Wishin' ob de time away;
Stow me long, stow me!

Buy her gown, buy her fan,
O, stow me long!
Dinah lub anudder man;
Stow me long, stow me!

Wish I hadn't been a fool,
O, stow me long!
Neber run away from school.
Ha-a, stow me long,
Stow me long, stow me!
Ha-a, stow me long,
Stow me long, stow me!

Note:

This one's chorus lines are irregular in the original text.

THE ARK OF ELM ISLAND, by Rev. Elijah Kellogg, published by Lee & Shepherd, Boston, Massachusetts, US, © 1869, p. 131

Flour's Song
(warping up to the dock).

De blue-bird robbed de cherry-bird's nest,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!
He robbed her nest, and brake her rest,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!

Cherry-bird chirp, and cherry-bird cry,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!
Cherry-bird mourn, cherry-bird die,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!

De black cat eat de blue-bird now,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!
He catch him sittin' on de bough,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!

He nip his head, he tear his breast,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!
Pay him for de cherry-bird's nest,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!

De gard'ner shoot de ole black cat,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!
Den rat make it tit for tat,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!

De gard'ner pull him down de tree,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!
Den dat square de yards, you see,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!

THE ARK OF ELM ISLAND, by Rev. Elijah Kellogg, published by Lee & Shepherd, Boston, Massachusetts, US, © 1869, p. 133

Hand Ober Hand
(warping up to the dock).

Cuffee stole my bacca,
Hand ober hand, O!
Scratch him,
Hand ober hand, O!

Put it in his pocket,
Hand ober hand, O!
Kick him,
Hand ober hand, O!

Now he's gwine to smoke it,
Hand ober hand, O!
Bite him,
Hand ober hand, O!

THE ARK OF ELM ISLAND, by Rev. Elijah Kellogg, published by Lee & Shepherd, Boston, Massachusetts, US, © 1869, p. 133

Walking Song
(warping up to the dock).

Take de line, an' walk away,
Ho-o; ho, ho, ho!
Gwine to leabe you; cannot stay,
Fire down below!

Gwine to leabe you, Johnny Bull,
Ho-o; ho, ho, ho!
'Cause yer dunno how ter pull,
Fire down below!

Like as do dis Yankee crew,
Ho-o; ho, ho, ho!
Warpin' ob de ballahoo,
Fire down below!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:30 PM

Summary and Conclusions for "Sally Brown" Part 10

It's amazing to me but I feel like we've really only just begun to do our study of "Sally Brown". My aim with the discussion of this song as been four-fold. First of all I wanted to actually apply my "categories of multiple attestation" to a particular chanty to see what kind of information we might gain from this approach. Second, I wanted to take this opportunity to organize the known sources chronologically so that they are easier to access for a historical study. I deliberately chose a chanty that I already knew would have lots of references in order to do this. Third, I wanted to learn as much as I could about a particular chanty and "Sally Brown" happens to be one of my favorites. And fourth, I really wanted to see if we could construct an historical context that would allow us to make a reasonable claim for placing "Sally Brown" on board of the "Julia Ann" on her voyages of 1853-1854. For me, and I hope for others, this study has been helpful in all four of these ways.

Obviously, to apply this scheme of "categories of multiple attestation" to a particular chanty is a lot of work if it is to be thorough, and for historical purposes it has to be as thorough as possible. I think it is a successful approach in generating a lot of interesting and useful information. And it did serve the purpose of gathering up and arranging the sources in a chronological order, on a number of different levels. Now that that basic piece of work is done, it should be easier to apply them to the next chanty, if one were to choose to pursue this. I have certainly learned a great deal of specific and interesting information about "Sally Brown". I have a much better sense of the historical and geographical spread of this chanty. And of course all of this information raises as many questions as it resolves. And finally, I think that maybe we did move "Sally Brown" a bit closer to the "Julia Ann".

First of all, we know that "Sally" was in both San Francisco and in Sydney, Melbourne, and Newcastle. We have successfully located her on both ends of the trip. However, we can't pinpoint a date for San Francisco until 1884 {Mason}. The dates for Australia might be as early as the 1870's {Pattison & Forbes}, but at least by 1875 {Harlow}. And we might be able to put her back in San Francisco as early as 1869 if we could pin down Maitland's voyages. So we have a potential spread of 1869 to 1875, and a certain spread of 1875 to 1884.

However, the problem with this information is that we don't have any accounts of "Sally" actually making the voyage from San Francisco to Sydney. We just have her showing up in both places independently of each other. We don't exactly know - or do we? - how she got there with Harlow (I've only read his chanty book. Perhaps his other book gives more detail.) But Harlow's return voyage is by way of the Cape of Good Hope and not Cape Horn. We have no information on the voyages of Pattison & Forbes. And with Mason, San Francisco was a destination point, from the east.

We did turn up three whalers who knew the song, but at this point I don't have any information on where they sailed {Baker '58, Cuffee '70's, and Henderson, sometime before 1872). If any of them were in the Pacific whaling areas, this would be important information, especially with regard to Baker.

We also know that "Sally" was probably in India with the East Indiamen sometime between 1861 and 1872 {Whall}, and that she may have made it on out to the Far East as early as 1869 {Maitland}, and certainly by 1875 {Harlow}, and throughout the remainder of the 19th century {Colcord} and on into the 20th century {King & Hugill}. But we still don't know how she arrived in Australia. There is no mention of her on the immigrant ships or the Australian Traders, per se, unless Harlow counts for this. Once again, all of these dates are later than the 1850's.

We can put "Sally" on the Liverpool packets in the 1830's with Marryat and generally up and down the Eastern Seaboard of North America from Nova Scotia to the West Indies and also in the ports of the Gulf of Mexico. These dates range from 1830 {Curtis}, to 1865 {Adams}, to the later 1860's {Harding & Tobago Smith}, to 1869 {Maitland & Bullen}, to 1885 {Tayluer}, to 1889 {Colcord}, to 1902 {King}, and so forth. And we know that ships sailed from all of these areas, as well as England and Australia and Europe and other places to California in the decade of the Gold Rush, from 1849-59. But we can't actually put "Sally" on a single ship going around Cape Horn that I know of at this point! Unless by inference we put her on board of Mason's ship. I have to go back and read his account more carefully. If I recall correctly, she comes on board his ship in San Francisco with another crew.

On the other hand, she seems to have been somewhat well-known and popular in England as early as 1825 and maybe earlier {Wallack}, and she seems to have been well known enough to be referred to as an example by Lincoln in Springfield, Illinois, in 1852 in a political speech! And thanks to Marryat, she enjoyed literary popularity throughout the 19th century.

In conclusion, it would seem reasonable to think that "Sally Brown" was probably known and sung on board the ships heading for California during the Gold Rush, and that she was hanging around San Francisco when the "Julia Ann" sailed in 1853. And it seems reasonable to believe that she perhaps made some of the voyages on the "Julia Ann", as a capstan chanty or at the halyards, or perhaps to load and unload coal or grain, but probably not Mormons.

Future research on "Sally Brown" needs to focus on the literature of the Gold Rush. Somewhere above, Charley Noble has provided us with an extensive bibliography on this era. So, Charley, where is that research assistant that I asked you about?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:45 PM

Thanks for the effort, Charley! Pfft, why would I take offense?; rather, I am just very lazy when it comes to re-typing lyrics!

Although I cannot say whether the walkaway shanty was indeed used for that task in real life, however, I see no good reason why it couldn't be. If it is, as I suspect, a variation of what Hugill called the "Sailor Fireman," then it went along much like "Sacramento," and as such I think it would work just fine. Hugill had taken it from a 1850 collection of African-American songs, so we do know a water-related work-song of this strain was existing by then. I am also excited that the song in the 1853-observed SLAVE STATES text also bears similarity to the fireman song. I hope John M. might consider adding this song to the batch of possible 1853-era shanties.

What excites me more is the completely incidental/topical/ad-libbed nature of verses of the songs in the last two references I posted. Also, please compare them to the ART OF BALLET song earlier in the thread. While as Lighter stated, and in which I am in agreement with, the shanties were often identified by one or more "regulation verses," I think these were good examples of the kind of chantying that was pure "framework."

The narrators in these accounts are quite sympathetic to the singing of Blacks. The second one even has an abolitionist's agenda of reaffirming the value of Black expression. It makes me think of the idea of "ethnosympathy" -- which is a term (I believe) coined by Prof. Jon Cruz of UCSB in reference to the phenomenon whereby non-Blacks in the U.S. began to listen to Black singing sympathetically. Whereas in earlier times, Black expression may have been regarded as mere "noise" or "rude" singing, in their effort to humanize Blacks, abolitionists cited Black musical expression and talent as one way of demonstrating that they were indeed human beings and not chattels. The first author takes the interesting tack of showing the superiority of the United States to Britain due to her rich and varied population, including African-Americans. It is not their physical strength but their adaptability -- their willingness to utilize singing as a tool (as opposed to the British's supposed stuffy unwillingness). And the ART OF BALLET praises the Black singers for their ability to be topical.

However, both authors still appear to critique the Black songs as being of low standard in their texts (lack of rhyme, irregular number of metrical feet, and all that). I think it's likely that the aesthetic of creating incidental/improvised verses in this manner was something more valued in African-American (and indeed African) musical culture. For this reason, the emphasis on that went under-appreciated by the observers.

Incidentally, another approach to take to the material that John as laid out (e.g. for "Sally Brown") would be to compare the references in light of the ethnic backgrounds of who was said to be singing them (where texts are available, that is). Is there any difference between the sort of texts sung by Euro-/American and African-American sailors? Did a common aesthetic emerge for chantey-singing? Or did there remain a distinct stylistic difference between sailors of different ethnicities?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 02:16 PM

An INDEX, of sorts, for the Study of "Sally Brown"

Here are the links for the study of "Sally Brown" on this thread.

An introduction to "Multiple Categories of Multiple Attestation":

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2855290

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2855294

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2855299

Part 1 Published Collections

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2860956

Part 2 Published Mention

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2860968

Part 3 Historical Informants

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2860977

Part 4   Use & Function

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2860990

Part 5   Versions & Variants

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2861214

Part 6   Geographical Usage

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2862168

Part 7   Genre Usage

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2862571

Part 8   Historical Usage

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2862580

Part 9a & b Sources

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2862660

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2863390

Part 10 Summary & Conclusion

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=392#2863993

And finally, Charley Noble's bibliography on the California Gold Rush

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=392#2838945

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 03:00 PM

Very comprehensive and valuable, John.

Bear in mind too that verses of "Sally Brown" were frequently sung also to the tune and pattern of "Shenandoah."

The connection may have been helped by the vague sound similarity between the two names and the presence of a "daughter" in both songs.

John Masefield, author of the beloved "Sea Fever"and much more, trained as a cadet on the school-ship Conway in the early '90s. Chances are he learned "Sally Brown" at that time. AFAIK, he made only two voyages as a sailor: Liverpool to Iquique in 1894 and London to New York the following year. (He came back to England from Chile as a passenger.)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 03:04 PM

Here's one last "chantey" that I missed harvesting from Rev. Kellogg which is quite a catch:

THE ARK OF ELM ISLAND, by Rev. Elijah Kellogg, published by Lee & Shepherd, Boston, Massachusetts, US, © 1869, p. 152

John John Crow
(halyard chanty)

De cap'n's a driver, de mate is a driver,
John, John Crow is a dandy, O!
Drive her through de water, O, why don't you drive her?
JJohn, John Crow is a dandy, O!

De foam at our fore-foot, rolling white as de snow,
John, John Crow is a dandy, O!
We sail o'er de ocean, and we sing Johnny Crow,
John, John Crow is a dandy, O!

We're saucy to fight, we're nimble to fly,
John, John Crow is a dandy, O!
Like de fish in de sea, like de bird in de sky,
John, John Crow is a dandy, O!

For de Stars and de Stripes we hab fought wid de foe,
John, John Crow is a dandy, O!
Now de fighting is ober, we will sing Johnny Crow,
John, John Crow is a dandy, O!

De fair wind he blowing, nebber cloud in de sky,
John, John Crow is a dandy, O!
We sheet home de royal, and we bid you good by,
John, John Crow is a dandy, O!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 03:38 PM

Here are more references to "Sally Brown." I hope I'm not repeating anything John and Gibb have already discovered.

1897 W. Carlton Dawe, "Kakemonos: Tales of the Far East" (London: John Lane) p.87.

1900 J. E. Patterson, "Sailors' Work Songs," New York Daily Tribune (September 9), p. 10.

1905 Henry C. Lahee, "Sailors' Chanties," The Sea Breeze (Boston), Jan., pp. 13-14.

1909-1910 Basil Lubbock, "Deep Sea Warriors" (N.Y.: Dodd, Mead), pp. 179-181.

1917 W. S. Birge, "The Chantey Man's Songs," The National Magazine, XLVI, p. 284.

1922 Joseph C. Lincoln, "Fair Harbor" (N.Y.: D. Appleton), p. 68. (Refers to 1880s.)

1935 A. E. Dingle, "Pipe All Hands!" (London: Harrap), p. 104.

1939 Capt. Leighton Robinson, rec. for L. of C. by S. R. Cowell (I posted this on another thread a few years ago.)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 04:45 PM

Almost forgot:

1887 A. McKechnie, "Proosh," Star (Christchurch, N.Z.) (Aug. 24), p. 1.

1892 Hugh St. Leger, "Chanties," Black and White (London), p. 13.

1897 "Dead and Buried," Westminster Budget (London), (Aug. 20), p. 19.

1900 "Chanties," Boston Daily Globe (Sept. 16), p. 43.

1909 "'Sally Brown' Inspiriting Angel," Chicago Daily Tribune (July 4) E3. (Construction workers haul on block and tackle while the leader sets the pace by shouting the words "Sally Brown! Sally Brown!")

1909 "South Polar Exploration," Star (Christchurch, N.Z.) (Nov. 9), p. 1. (Sung by Scott's crew while raising masts.)

1913 "'Sea Songs' Not Sung by Sailors," Kansas City Star (Sept. 26), p. 12B.