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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 15 Jan 12 - 09:09 PM With regard to the version in the Flanders collection from Edith Ballenger Price of Newport, Rlhode Island, entitled "The Daemon Lover", which is so completely different from all of the other versions found in the Northeast, and probably throughout North America, and about which Brian Peters and I have expressed some skepticism, Alisoun Gardner-Medwin says in her article: "It is possible that a copy of this book [the 1812 edition of Sir Walter Scott's Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border] was brought to America and provided a source for some versions. It is interesting to note here that one of the versions collected by Helen Hartness Flanders [the Price version] is so close verbally to F that it must have been taken from Scott's book not long before it was recorded. [23] The influence of Scott's book can be observed in a comment found in a letter from Margaret Reburn of Iowa, to Child in 1881, where she mentions that she has seen a volume of Scott's Minstrelsy. Apart from a volume of songs, whose title she could not remember, this was the only printed book containing ballads that she had seen.[24]" |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 15 Jan 12 - 10:48 AM Hey Gibb, thanks. I was wondering if this song ever shows up on board an actual ship anywhere? It has nautical themes. Of course many versions end by cursing all sea-faring men, but still, it's a good story. I have not come across it in any of the sea-going materials I have looked at. But we know that it went to sea at least once when it crossed the Atlantic. And more than likely it came over many times and might even have gone back the other way as well (Alisoun Gardner-Medwin). In her, now forty-year old - this is hard to believe! - article, entitled "The Ancestry of "The House-Carpenter": A Study of the Family History of the American Forms of Child 243" [which Mick Pearce has noted above], Gardner-Medwin suggests that the Scottish versions of this ballad may have come over, before the American Revolutionary War, with the Scottish tobacco traders, who came over from Scotland specifically to run the tobacco trading facilities in the port cities on the Atlantic coast, especially in Virginia and the Carolinas. Apparently they never intended to be permanent residents and many returned to Scotland when the war broke out. But if they were conveyers of the ballad, they certainly had constant access to sea going folks. Gardner-Medwin says: "I believe that this ballad flourished here for at least two generations before it was printed [in 1858 & 1860]." And she says in the paragraph just before this statement that the printed "...English form of the ballad is by no means the only ancestor of the American "The House- Carpenter " and perhaps this essay will show that the connections with the Scottish side of the family are even stronger ." She goes on to suggest that there are "definite Scottish element(s)" to be found even in the De Marsan broadside, pointing back to earlier oral tradition. Gardner-Medwin says: "...there are three verses in De Marsan that could not have come from the English B [version in Child] and are like verses found only in Scottish tradition. They are verses , where she takes the baby on her knee and kisses it, and the two verses in which the seducer says he will take the woman to a promised land (verses 3 and 10). Therefore there must have been influence from Scotland in the ballad before De Marsan printed it.....Where and when this mixing of the English broadside tradition and the Scottish oral tradition took place cannot be shown from this evidence alone, but I think that further investigation of the American tradition will show that it took place well before 1860 and probably in America." At this point, I have to admit that I have only recently, with the advent of this particular thread, dived into any scholarship on this ballad. I am wondering if there is any more recent study of this ballad in its American context, since Gardner-Medwin's 1971 article. I know that forty years may or may not be very long ago in an academic context, but is there anything more recent? In addition to the Heylin book from 1999? Taking a quick look at Heylin's rather extensive bibliography, nothing leaps out at me. There is an article by David Atkinson on "Maarriage & Retribution in 'James Harris'" in FOLK MUSIC JOURNAL vol. 5 no. 5, 1989, but I would assume this does not focus on American versions. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 15 Jan 12 - 03:24 AM Nice work -- good quality Mudcat stuff! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 14 Jan 12 - 05:21 PM Part X Now that we've got the versions from the U.S. in some kind of order, perhaps it would interesting to look at the two Canadian versions that we have in our "collection." One comes from Newfoundland, collected by Kenneth Peacock in 1961 from Mary Ann Galpin of Codroy, and the other one comes from Toronto, Ontario, from LaRena Clark, also 1961. She recorded her version on "LaRena Clark: A Canadian Garland," Topic 12T140. Perhaps the most interesting thing about these two versions which they agree upon and which is different from all of our New England versions is that the woman ends her part of the story by committing suicide. Here is the verse in Clark's version: She had not sailed on sea three weeks, I'm sure not sailed on four, Till overboard her fair body she threw, And her weeping was heard no more. And here is the Galpin version: 'Twas just a short time after that, I know, This lady she was distracted and forlorn. Then she soon ended her life into the sea By jumping overboard at the height of the storm. The Galpin version is quite developed in relation to all of our other versions and shows local reference and creativity and is in a more literary style. The story has been made "coherent" with an orderly beginning and end. The young wife of a ship's carpenter in England is seduced away from her family by a rogue from Newfoundland who promises her the good life back there. She goes with him but several days out on the return trip she begins to have major regrets. She weeps and then jumps overboard. Back in England, when the ship's carpenter learns what has happened, he "swore and tore his hair," and cursed all mariners and especially the sea captain who stole away his wife. The Clark version is much closer to the oral traditions that underlie our New England editions. It begins with the "Well met," and ends with the curse verse. The "king's daughter" has become a "queen's daughter." And the seducer has "refused a crown of gold." There is the response about "If you could have married a queen's daughter, Then she should have married thee," which leaves out the "blame" part. He's going to take her "down where the grass grows green, On the banks of the River Dee." And she asks how he will "keep her from slavery?" In this version, the lady has "two pretty babes, for whom she weeps. While Clark's version has the overall structure of the broadside version, it has a lot of the tell-tale signs that we have been seeing before that are different from the broadside, and probably comes out of the same streams as many of the versions just over the border to south in NY, NH, VT, and ME. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 13 Jan 12 - 10:25 PM Mick, thanks very much for this link and this information. I did not have the Philadelphia version anywhere. There was the De Marsan version from the LOC and an "unnamed" version from the LOC. I had been assuming that these were mostly all the same. But I am very glad to actually be able to see the Philadelphia one. It is apparently the oldest one in print in the U.S. I think you are right about the difference between the LOC and the Bodleian copies. I have been working my way through the "Ancestry of the House Carpenter" article. The jumbled up printing of it is a bit maddening, but I am working at it. It definitely has some interesting information in it. Here is one important note: "It is true that these New England versions are very like De Marsan, and indeed we know that a copy of DeMarsan's broadside came north, for there is one in the collection of the American Antiquarian Society at Worcester, Massachusetts,..." |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 13 Jan 12 - 09:31 PM John I was just looking over this and I'm not clear if you have the Philadelphia broadside or not (at a quick look through the text you seem to be asking for information on it, but I couldn't tell if you had a copy or not). That version is available in the Bodleian Broadside collection, with the imprint: J.H. Johnson, Song Publisher, Stationer And Printer, No. 7 N. Tenth Street, 3 doors above Market, Philadelphia, Pa., dated ca1860. The image is at: House Carpenter - Philadelphia version Looking it at, the text is the same as the LOC np,nd version with what looks like one exception - the version at the Bodleian has House Carpenter at the end of the very last line, while LOC seems to have House Carpenters. The border also appears to be different. I'd guess that the LOC copy is either a slightly altered version from Philadelphia or derived from the Philadelphia or the same source. (apologies if you do have it and I've missed the info above). Mick |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 13 Jan 12 - 04:29 PM I'm looking forward to that, Brian. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Brian Peters Date: 13 Jan 12 - 03:24 PM Following you with interest, but way too busy just now to contribute. I'll be back! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 13 Jan 12 - 02:35 PM Part IX Here is what Clinton Heylin has to say about the Price text. [a long quote!] "Establishing the revenant nature of the former lover adds an important dimension to an otherwise mundane tale of temptation and guilt. What it does not afford is an explanation of the supernatural powers with which our 'Dæmon Lover' is endowed on his return. The final verse of the Greig-Buchan text confirms that it is the spirit of 'James Harris' that causes the ship to sink (unlike in the familiar broadside texts); that the storm is invoked by the revenant; and that the white lillies on the banks of Italy were intended to contrast with the white fishes/lillies at the bottom of the sea. Though Buchan's text does not depict the advent of the storm, Robert Scott's North Eastern text does, as do both of William Motherwell's variants, his Minstrelsy text bearing the more authentic tone: They had not sailed a mile awa, Never a mile but three, When dark, dark, grew his eerie looks, And raging grew the sea.2 Motherwell's nine-verse text appeared in the 1827 edition of his Minstrelsy, Ancient & Modern. An American text, collected from New England by the same indefatigible collector who had previously located the 'George Allis' fragment, suggests that Motherwell's text drew upon an enduring tradition. This eight-verse 'condensation', transcribed in October 1945, despite narrative holes, is an excellent text, another rare rendition to have survived in America without the debilitating input of De Marsan. It also adds an important piece to our jigsaw - the notion of the lady in the song becoming increasingly aware that her former lover is not all that he seems. In the Motherwell-Price text/s encroaching dread consumes the song long before the destruction of the ship. Thankfully not only did one Edith Ballenger Price, from Newport, Rhode Island, recall that fine verse about "his eerie looks" but she also provided the only American text to date to contain an all-important reference to "his cloven foot." The image of the lady catching sight of 'her lover's' cloven foot is one of the most dramatic snapshots in all of popular balladry. Ms. Price says that she learnt the song from a lady whose family came from England, the only real suggestion that the 'dæmonic' version might have once had a foothold in English tradition. Comparing Ms. Price's rendition with the one in Motherwell's Minstrelsy affords an invaluable insight into how the strings of tradition can preserve the supernatural. The similarities are striking: [here follows a comparison verse by verse] ...... Perhaps one is doing Ms. Price a disservice referring to her rendition as a condensation. Her eight verses accord remarkably well with Motherwell's nine. Perhaps, as the English and American broadsides elected to start the tale in act three, some long-forgotten Scottish wag decided to take Mr. Graves at his word and begin proceedings in "the last act of the play." As it is, Motherwell's reciter and Ms. Price both start and end on the same verse and inbetween agree on all the main particulars (the absence of mariners, the banks of Italy, the cloven foot, the raging sea and a fine 'lingering' quartet that builds to its climax four miles/leagues from shore). Indeed, the two texts - recorded a hundred and twenty five years and three thousand miles apart - correspond so well that it begs the question: could Motherwell's version, which was after all a published text, have spawned its own rivulet of tradition? I think not. Setting aside the fact that Motherwell's work remained largely unknown outside antiquarian circles (and indeed the text in question Motherwell only apologetically included as a preface for what he deemed the more authoritative version, t'wit that published by Scott), the imagery in Price's rendition is, if anything, more convincing than Motherwell's. In particular, the penultimate verse, slightly Anglicized in Motherwell, rings with an authentic Scottish brogue in Price: They hadna' sailed a league, a league, A league but only three, When dark and fearsome grow his looks And gurly grow the sea.5 I presume that our New England lady was not in the habit of using the word 'gurly' despite the fact that, when imbued with some vocal gravel, it acquires a fine onomatopoeic quality. That her recollection had an authentic basis can be confirmed by reference to page 297 of George Kinloch's manuscript: Till grim, grim grew his countenance, And gurly grew the sea.6 Ms. Price's version also bypasses the strange offer made by the revenant, "mariners to wait upon us" - subsequently contradicted by the lady's protestation, "woe be to the dim mariners/ that nowhere can I see!" In Ms. Price's rendition, "She set her foot unto the ship/ no mariners did she behold." Her second verse, though it finds no real parallel in Motherwell, replicates - almost word-for-word - verse nine of Scott. The absence of mariners on this spectral ship is a lovely touch, one whose disappearance (sic) from tradition is much to be mourned." |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 13 Jan 12 - 02:31 PM Part VIII There is one other version from the Northeast left to consider. It is the one published by Flanders from Edith Ballenger Price of Rhode Island, collected in 1945. Supposedly, she learned it " as a young girl from "a lady living in Massachusetts, whose forebears came from England." For the sake of this discussion I am going to reprint this version. The Daemon Lover "I've seven ships upon the sea, Beaten with the finest gold, And mariners to wait upon us; All this she shall behold." She set her foot unto the ship, No mariners did she behold; But the sail was o' the.... And the mast o' the beaten gold. They hadna' sailed a league, a league, A league but only one, When she began to weep and to mourn and to think on her little wee son. "Now hold ye tears, my dearest dear; Let all your weeping be: For I'll show you how the lilies grow On the banks of Italee. They hadna' been a league, a league, A league but only two, When she beheld his cloven foot, From his gay robe thrusting through. They hadna' sailed a league, a league, A league but only three, When dark and fearsome grow his looks And gurly grow the sea. "Now hold your tears, my dearest dear, Let all your weeping be And I'll show ye how the white lilies grow At the bottom o' the sea." They hadna' sailed a league, a league, A league but only four; When the little wee ship ran 'round about And never was seen more. It is not hard to see how different this version is from everything else we have looked at! I have to say that I tend to agree with what Bryan Peters has said above about this version. He says that the transcription "from Edith Price of Newport, RI, looks an awful lot like a collation from the two versions of the ballad in Motherwell's 'Minstrelsey'. If the singer did indeed give it the title 'Daemon Lover', that alone would be grounds for suspicion." I have not gone back through all of Bronson but I think this is the only American version of this ballad to contain many of these unique characteristics. I would suggest that either it came over quite late in written form, or was appropriated directly in written form by somebody in Massachusetts. It seems suspicious to me as well. I would welcome some counter arguments. In the next post, I will put up Clinton Heylin's counter argument so you can see what he thinks about this text. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 13 Jan 12 - 01:57 PM Part VII There is another group of four versions plus a fragment that I want to consider. They are from Elmer George VT, Lena Bourne Fish NH, Allen Johnson ME, and Mrs. Cornwright NY, along with the fragment from Mrs. Wales VT, learned from her grandmother, Mrs. Bissell. The four complete versions have an amazing number of things in common, which are not in the Andrews/De Marsan broadside, definitely suggesting some other source. Setting aside the Wales fragment for moment, the other four all begin with almost identically the same verse: "Well met, well met, my pretty fair maid," "No so very well met," said she, "For I am married to a house carpenter, And a very fine man is he; Fish has "a ship carpenter" instead of "a house carpenter." What is interesting about this is not only that they all have the same wording, but that this is a conflation of the opening two verses from the broadside. They also use "pretty fair maid" instead of "my own true love." Three of the four versions, from Cornwright, Johnson, and George use a repetition of the last two lines of each verse as a refrain, which is somewhat unusual in ballad singing. This is also true for the versions by Reynolds ME/NH, Luther NH, and Mancour VT. All four versions have "the grass grows GREEN, On the banks of a sweet VALLEY." Three of them (Johnson, George, and Fish) use the word "entertain" in the third verse, "What have you there to ENTERTAIN me on/with?" And three of them (George, Fish, and Cornwright) use the word "slavery" instead of "misery". Johnson has "And keep me company." Three (George, Fish and Johnson) have almost identical fourth verses: "Oh, I have ships all in the bay [Johnson has "a thousand ships"] And plenty more upon land, Five hundred and ten of as fine young men. They are all at your command." [all four agree on these last two lines] There is strong agreement from all four versions on the next verse about "kisses three." Then two of the versions (George and Johnson) have almost identical versions of the "riches" verse that they insert at this point: She went upstairs to dress herself Most beautiful to behold. 'Twas then she walk-ed the streets all along, And she shone like the glittering gold. All four versions have almost identical accounts of the lady mourning most bitterly (Fish has "most pitifully"). They all agree on the "six weeks at sea": She had not sailed six weeks on the sea, Oh, no, not more than three, Before this fair lady began for to mourn And she mourned most bitterlee. And the fragment from Wales has almost the same thing: They had not sailed a month or more, A month or scarcely three, When she began to weep and lament And to mourn most bitterlie. All four versions and the fragment agree on the next verse about "weeping for gold': "O do you weep for gold, " he said, "Or do you weep for me, Or do you weep for your house carpenter That you left to come with me?" And then, all five of these versions agree that she is weeping FOR the House Carpenter, "But I do weep for my house carpenter..." The four main versions add the baby. All five versions have the strange line in the last verse about a hole in the ship springing a leak: When a hole in the ship, and the ship sprang a leak (Wales) When a hole in the ship it sprang a leak, (Johnson) At the bottom of the ship there sprang a leak (Fish) Before that hole in the ship sprang a leak (George) When a hole in the ship caught a leak, (Cornwright) And finally, none of these five versions have a curse verse. They all end with the ship going down. When you put these five versions along side of each other they clearly look like they have a common source. All four of the main versions agree on six points that are not in the broadside version. And there is some agreement on up to ten points that are not in the broadside. It seems to me that these five versions are the strongest and most coherent evidence we have for an alternate source different from the Andrews/De Marsan broadside for this ballad in the Northeast. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 13 Jan 12 - 11:23 AM Part VI I now want to look at five more of our versions from the Northeast that seem to have been influenced by the Andrews/De Marsan broadside, or the tradition underlying that broadside, as well as some other distinct traditions. These five versions come from Sidney Luther NH, Belle Richards NH, Ruth Moses (from her father)NH, Orlon Merrill NH, and slightly different from Alice Mancour of VT. The first four, all from NH are the most similar to each other. Two of them, (Luther and Richards) begin with the familiar "Well met, well met my own true love" line from the broadside. The version from Mancour in VT also begins with this line but has "my pretty fair maid." The other two (Moses and Merrill) begin with the second verse from the broadside, "I might have married a king's daughter fair." The other two NH versions also have this verse. All four of the NH versions share in common the response of "If you could have married a king's daughter fair, I'm sure you are to blame," which is not a part of the broadside. The Mancour version, while structured a bit differently does have the line "You are very much to blame." Clearly this response comes from some other source than the broadside tradition. All five of these versions share in common, over and against the broadside version, the phrase "the grass grows GREEN" (instead of "high"). Two have "sweet Willy," one has "sweet Valley," one has "Sweet Dundee," and one has "sweet Guerlee." Of course the broadside has "old Tennessee." Three (Richards, Merrill, Moses) have "slavery" instead of "misery." Interestingly enough, both the Luther version and the Mancour version omit this verse, and the following verse about what she will be offered if she leaves. Moses, Richards and Merrill then have some version of the "dressed herself up" in riches verse. Both Moses and Richards share the line "She dressed herself in scarlet red." Merrill simply has her in a "stylish dress." We have noticed before that this verse surely comes from a different and probably early source. All five of these versions have in common the lines "Is it for my gold you weep, or is it for my STORE?" And the answering verse, which is omitted by both Mancour and Moses, also has the word "store." The broadside has "Or are you weeping for fear," etc. The broadside has "But I am weeping for my sweet little babe, That I left with my House Carpenter." Moses, Merrill and Richards all have some variation on "That I never shall see any more." The other two omit this verse entirely. All five versions have the ship springing a leak but with no mention of striking a rock as in the broadside. And the four NH versions end with some form of a "curse." Three of them curse "all sea men" and Moses curses "all womankind, Likewise all men alive,..." The VT version from Mancour omits the curse. In all, only seven of our versions end with a form of curse. In addition to the four mentioned here and the one mentioned in the previous section from Willard, both Edwards and Couchey of NY have "curse verses." So, while it may have been possible that these five versions were at least influenced by traditions going back to the Andrews/De Marsan broadside, they have obviously come under other influences as well. The commonalities would perhaps suggest a fairly stable textual tradition lying behind these differences. There were probably alternate versions already in circulation perhaps before the printing of the broadside and certainly afterwards. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 13 Jan 12 - 11:20 AM Mick, thanks very much for that reference. I had not seen it and look forward to reading it. By the way, after getting hold of the Heylin book, I checked and the online article does contain the whole book, with the exception of the notes and an appendix containing copies of all of the versions having the "heaven/hell" verses, and a pretty good bibliography. There is also a page of followup on Heylin's quest for the source of Dylan's version, which I will discuss a bit later. There is also an in depth review of the Heylin book by a Christopher Rollason from 2004 here (you have to scroll down to find it): http://nicolamenicacci.com/bdcc/bookreviews.pdf |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 13 Jan 12 - 10:24 AM Should have looked further - there's a copy of the article on the Bluegrass Messenters site: Ancestry of the House Carpenter (though the OCR is a bit patchy!) Mick |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 13 Jan 12 - 10:19 AM Oops - that should have been Gardner-Medwin. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 13 Jan 12 - 10:17 AM John I wonder if you'd seen this article: The Ancestry of "The House Carpenter" A Study of the Familial History of the American Forms of Child 243 - Alisoun Garner-Medwin JAF, 1971. I don't have access to it, but it might be an interesting read. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 13 Jan 12 - 09:23 AM Part V Which of our versions from the Northeast come closest to matching the "Andrews/De Marsan" broadside? I have already mentioned the Devlin version, which is the only one to contain the phrase "on the banks of the old Tennessee." It is a fragment, with only four verses, and one could say that all four verses match up with the broadside. The "Salt Sea" has become "the deep blue sea." I would appreciate clarification on the geographical context for the Devlin version. I have not been able to resolve that issue. Aside from Jennie Devlin's song, I think that there are only two other versions that come very close to the broadside. One is the Sarah Willard manuscript from Moriah Center NY, written in 1869. The other is the version published by Flanders from Oscar Degreenia of West Cornwall CT. I am going to go through the Willard and Degreenia versions and compare them verse by verse with the Andrews/De Marsan broadside. The broadside comes first, and then Willard as our oldest written manuscript, and then Degreenia. I have put some of the word differences in CAPITALS. "Well met, well met, my own true love, Well met, well met," cried he "For I've just returned from the Salt Sea, All for the love of thee." Well met, well met my own true love Well met, well met, said he I have just returned from the salt, salt sea All for the love of thee "I have came across the sea, salt sea; It was all for the sake of thee. --- "I might have married the King's daughter, dear," "You might have married her," cried she, "For I am married to a House Carpenter, And a fine young man is he." Willard omits this verse. "I might have married a king's daughter FAIR And she would married me." "For I have married a house carpenter And I think he's a very nice man." --- "If you will forsake your House Carpenter, And go along with me, I will take you where the grass grows high, On the banks of old Tennessee." If you will forsake your house carpenter And go along with me I will take you where the grass grows GREEN On the Banks of the SWEET WILLIE? "If you will LEAVE your house carpenter And COME along with me, I'll take you there where the grass grows GREEN On the banks of the SWEET DUNDEE." --- "If I forsake my House Carpenter, And go along with thee, What have you got to keep me upon, And keep me from misery." If I'll forsake my house carpenter And go along with thee Have you anything to MAINTAIN me upon And to keep me from SLAVERY. "If I should leave my house carpenter And go along with thee, What have you there to SUPPORT me on Or keep me from misery?" --- Says he, "I've got six ships at sea, All sailing to dry land, One hundred and ten of your own countrymen, Love, they shall be at your command." One hundred ships I have at sea A-making for dry land With two hundred and ten bold jolly seamen All shall be at your command "I have three ships ALL LOADED WITH GOLD And sailing for dry land, And a hundred and twenty sailor boys Will be at your demand." --- She took her babe upon her knee, And kissed it one, two, or three, Saying, "Stay at home, my darling sweet babe, And keep your father's company." She called her babe up on her knee And she kissed it two and three Said stay at home my sweet little babe And keep your dad company She picked her baby up INTO HER ARMS And give him kisses three, Saying, "Stay at home with your pap For he IS GOOD company." --- Willard inserts the following verse at this point: She dressed herself in rich way In riches to behold And every street that she passed through She showed her glittering gold --- They had not sailed four weeks or more, Four weeks or scarcely three, When she thought of her darling sweet babe at home, And she wept most bitterly. She had not been at sea two weeks I am sure it was not three BEFORE THIS MAID BEGAN TO WEEP And she wept most bitterly They had not sailed a week an' a half, I'm sure it was not three, BEFORE THIS MAID FOUND FOR TO WEEP, And she wept most bitterly. --- Says he, "Are you weeping for gold, my love, Or are you weeping for fear, Or are you weeping for your House Carpenter, That you left and followed me." Is it for my gold that you weep Or is it for MY STORE Or is it for the house carpenter That you NEVER CAN SEE ANY MORE "Is it for gold that you do weep, Or is it for MY STORE?" [Degreenia conflates this verse with the next one.] "It's for my darling little babe THAT I NEVER WILL SEE ANY MORE" --- "I am not weeping for gold," she replied, "Nor am I weeping for fear, But I am weeping alone for my sweet little babe, That I left with my House Carpenter." Tis not for your gold that I weep It is not for your STORE But its ALL FOR THE LOVE of my sweet little babe THAT I NEVER CAN SEE ANY MORE. --- At this point, the broadside inserts the following verse, missing from all other versions: "Oh, dry up your tears, my own true love, And cease your weeping," cried he, "For soon you'll see your own happy home, On the banks of old Tennessee." --- They had not sailed five weeks or more, Five weeks or scarcely four, When the ship struck a rock and sprung a leak, And they were never seen any more. She had not been on the sea three weeks I am sure it was not four Before that ship she sprung a leak And she sank to rise no more They had not sailed three weeks and a half, I'm sure it was not four, When A HOLE BROKE OUT IN THE BOTTOM OF THE SHIP And their bones was heard no more. [Notice the differences in the last line.] --- A curse be on the sea-faring men, Oh, cursed be their lives, For while they are robbing the House Carpenter, And coaxing away their wives. Bad luck Bad luck to sea fare MAID And cursed be all your lives For robbing of the House Carpenter And STEALING away his wife The Degreenia version does not have the curse. --- There is certainly enough agreement between both the Willard and Degreenia versions with the broadside to suggest that they were at least influenced by the broadside tradition, if not derived from it. However, there is always the question as to whether or not all three of these versions (including the broadside) may have come from an earlier source. It is also interesting to note the agreements between Willard and Degreenia that disagree with the broadside, suggesting other common sources. And finally it is important to notice what is unique to the broadside, and what is unique to Willard and to Degreenia, again suggesting multiple sources. Certainly Willard shares with other earlier sources the verse about dressing up in riches and the use of "slavery." Degreenia shares with other versions the use of "Dundee" and "I have three ships all loaded with gold." He also omits the opening two lines about "Well met..." and the ending "curse verse." |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 12 Jan 12 - 04:46 PM Part IV In addition to a preference for "green" grass and "slavery", there are a number of other differences from the Andrews/De Marsan broadside that show up in these Northeastern versions. One of these is the repetition of the last line or two of a verse used as a refrain. This shows up in seven of the twenty-one versions: Edwards NY, Cornwright NY, Johnson ME, Reynolds ME/NH, Luther NH, George VT, Mancour VT. Another difference is the addition of the verse that refers to the lady dressing up and parading her riches. An example is from Sarah Willard's version from 1869 in NY: She dressed herself in rich array And riches to behold And every street that she passed through She showed her glittering gold. Sometimes she dresses in "scarlet red " (twice from NH, Moses and Richards). In one version, the "House Carpenter" becomes the "Ship's Carpenter" (Fish NH), and in another version, both "House Carpenter" and "Ship's Carpenter" are mentioned (Edwards NY) In four of the versions (Cornwright NY, Johnson ME, Fish NH, and George VT), the first two verses of the broadside are conflated into one verse. The broadside has: "Well met, well met, my own true love, Well met, well met," cried he "For I've just returned from the Salt Sea, All for the love of thee." "I might have married the King's daughter, dear," "You might have married her," cried she, "For I am married to a House Carpenter, And a fine young man is he." These four versions have something equivalent to Mrs. Cornwright's version: "Well met, well met, my pretty fair maid." "Not so very well met," said she, "For I am married to a house-carpenter, And he is good to me." In four of the versions, there is a preference for "pretty fair maid" instead of "my own true love" (Johnson ME, Fish NH, George VT, Mancour VT). Both phrases seem to be something like stock ballad phrases, but are different in meaning, perhaps reflecting two different sources. Two of the versions begin with the verse "I might have married the king's daughter fair," And in five of the versions, there is the addition of a reproach in response to this bragging about having turned down an offer of marriage to a "King's daughter": "If you could have married a king's daughter fair, I'm sure you are much to blame, This is found in Moses NH, Luther NH, Richards NH, Merrill NH, and Mancour VT. Instead of "What have you got to keep me upon" in the fourth verse of the broadside, three of the versions have "What have you there to ENTERTAIN me on/with" (Johnson ME, Fish NH, George VT). Two versions have reference to "three ships loaded down with gold" (Moses NH, Degreeenia CT). Only one of the twenty versions other than the broadside has the phrase "On the banks of the old Tennessee." Curiously enough this is the fragment from Jennie Devlin. Four of the versions have "sweet Willie" (Willard NY, Reynolds ME/NH, Luther NH, Merrill NH) and five of them have "sweet valley" (Cornwright NY, Johnson ME, Richards NH, Fish NH, George VT). The repetition of these similarities suggests other sources or influences than the broadside. In five of the versions, the lady says that indeed she is mourning for her house carpenter and her baby (Cornwright NY, Johanson ME, Fish NH, George VT, Wales VT). The broadside says that she is only weeping for her "sweet little babe." While the broadside says that the ship went down when it "struck a rock and sprung a leak." Six of the versions have some variation on "When a hole in the ship it sprang a leak," (Johnson ME, Cornwright NY, Fish NH, George VT, Mancour VT, Wales VT). Thirteen of the versions, including the fragments, omit any reference to a curse at the end of the ballad. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 12 Jan 12 - 03:46 PM Part III We are looking at 15 more or less complete versions, plus 6 fragments of "The House Carpenter" from the Northeastern region of the U.S. One of these is the "Andrews/De Marsan" broadside, printed in New York/Philadelphia in 1857/1860. I want to turn my attention now to trying to see what influence this broadside might have had on the ballad in this region. As I mentioned before, there are no exact reproductions of the broadside. I want to begin by noting a couple of differences from the broadside version that are found widespread throughout the Northeast. In the third verse, the broadside has the line "I will take you where the grass grows high," Out of the 21 versions represented, 14 of them have "the grass grows GREEN" (or "greener" in the Cutting version) These are Cornwright NY, Couchey NY, Willard NY, Cutting NY, Johnson ME, Reynolds ME/NH, Moses NH, Luther NH, Richards NH, Fish NH, Merrill NH, George VT, Mancour VT, and Degreenia CT. As can be seen, they are spread all over the region. A second difference of wording comes at the end of the fourth verse. The broadside has "And keep my from misery." Out of the 21 versions represented, 11 have "SLAVERY" instead of "misery." They are Cornwright, Kelter, Couchey, Willard, Cuttng and Edwards of NY, Moses, Richards, Fish, and Merrill of NH, and George of VT. The fact that these two wording differences are so widespread and so consistent suggests an alternative source, especially with regard to "misery"/"slavery", which are not really synonyms. It is curious why "slavery" would be preferred, and perhaps an interesting commentary on the situation of women in that culture (?). Grass growing "green" seems a more natural image than grass growing "high", perhaps suggesting that "green" was at least the more popular version, if not the more "original" or earlier version. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 11 Jan 12 - 06:20 PM Part II There are a number of themes that do not show up in the versions of "The House Carpenter" that we have "collected" on this thread. These are themes that are common to the older versions from the British Isles. This includes the "Andrews/De Marsan" broadside, and excludes the Sullivan and Price versions. There is no mention of any "ghost" or of "the Devil". As far as I can tell there are no hints at anything supernatural or diabolical. There is no mention of any "broken vows" or any punishment for the woman because she has broken previous vows. The person who steals away the House Carpenter's wife has "come from the sea," "come across the sal', salt sea," has "crossed the sea," has "crossed the salt sea wave," has "come across the sea," has "returned from the salt, salt sea," has "come across the deep blue sea," has "just returned from the salt, salt sea" (Willard). George Edward's version says, "It's pretty well met to my own true love, It's pretty well met," says he, "It's pretty well met to my own true love, Long time I've waited for thee, O thee, A long time I've waited for thee. This seems to indicate that the one absent (at sea) has "waited" a "long time". This is the only mention of time in any of the versions. There is no mention of "seven years" in any of them. There is no mention of anybody's actual name in any of these versions. And finally, none of these Northeastern versions, including the broadsides, have the two verses about seeing the hills of "heaven" and "hell", which are so frequent in the Southern versions. There is no mention of the ship being destroyed by it's owner at sea. In every case it sinks because of natural causes. There is no use of older English words, such as "league", or any signs of Scottish dialect in any of these versions. George Edwards does make reference to "pounds" in a verse that is unique to him and seems to have come from some other song: "But if I was worth ten thousand pounds, So freely I'd give it to thee If I could once more go on yonder shore My two [three] little babes to see, O see, My two [three] little babes to see." Edwards' version is somewhat anachronistic throughout. Two of the versions, from Mancour (VT) and Degreenia (CT), mention "the sweet Dundee." But it is impossible to know why and whether this reference came with the ballad or from other associations, since the names associated with this particular verse are very diverse. None of the versions refer to "the banks of sweet Italy." And none of them refer to "white lilies at the bottom of the sea." |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 11 Jan 12 - 03:27 PM Part I I want to offer some analysis of the versions of the "House Carpenter" collected in the Northeastern part of the United States that we have found so far. At this time I am not including the Canadian versions. I am also excluding the version known as "The Banks of Claudy", collected from Ellen Sullivan of Springfield, Vermont, since it is so different from all of the others, and I have already posted Heylin's analysis of it. And, I am excluding, for now, the version collected from Edith Ballenger Price, of Newport, Rhode Island, entitled "The Daemon Lover." This, too, is a unique version, different from all of the others. I will discuss it in a different context later. In addition to the Sullivan and Price variants, there are two other versions that are significantly different enough from the rest to deserve mention. One is the version entitled "The Young Turtle Dove", from a manuscript that belonged to Mrs. John Luther of Pittsburg, New Hampshire. The other is the version from Alec Couchey of Essex, New York, as sung by Lee Knight, entitled "The Gypsy Daisy", which combines "The House Carpenter" with "The Gypsy Davey." I will be including both of these variants in my discussion. There are also a number of fragments or incomplete versions in what we have found so far. They are as follows: the version from Susie Carr Young, of Brewer, Maine; the one from Celia Kelter, of Tabasco, New York; the one from Mrs. Wales of Burlington, Vermont; the one from Maynard Reynolds of Pittsburgh, New Hampshire; the one from Clarence Cutting from the Adirondack region of New York, and the one from Jennie Devlin, from either Gloucester, Massachusetts or perhaps New Jersey. I will include all of these fragments in my discussion. I will also include the broadside printed by De Marsan, which I assume is the same one printed by "J. Andrews" in New York City in 1857. We don't know the sources for the Andrews/De Marsan broadside, but since it was printed in New York, it seems to me to be a part of our collection, as well as one of the possible sources for the others that we have found. All of our versions have been collected roughly within a hundred years of the printing of the Andrews/De Marsan broadside. It predates all of our versions and certainly could have been around for all of our singers to draw on as a source. I want to try to see which of our versions seem most dependent upon the broadside and which ones differ from it the most. All of them follow the same general narrative of the broadside, but with some significant individual variations. None of our versions correspond exactly with the broadside. Each one differs in some significant way. I have not been able to see any geographical tendencies among our versions. The "state boundaries" seem irrelevant, so I have decided to ignore them. Also the distance from New York City as the source of the broadside does not seem relevant. We don't have enough samples from Canada to be able to tell about any influence from that direction. So I am treating our versions strictly on a regional basis within the northeastern part of the United States. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:41 PM Thanks, Becky. Google Books is a mixed blessing and at times frustrating! Maybe someone else has access to this and can put it up. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Desert Dancer Date: 04 Jan 12 - 10:37 AM Unfortunately, I seem to have gotten lucky with Google Books on the House Carpenter, but Banks of Claudy is not available, since it's a preview of the book, not a full e-book. ~ Becky in Tucson |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 03 Jan 12 - 04:37 PM My apologies to you, Becky. I didn't look close enough at what I was doing or you were saying, and it was me who confused the issue on the Devlin fragment. Can you post the Devlin version of "Banks of Claudy" for comparative purposes? And Brian, reading back upstream a ways, I came across this note from you in response to my posting of the Robert Shifflett version from Virginia, in which you list a number of the verses and phrases that differ from the De Marsan broadside and point out that they have parallels in the earlier Scottish versions, which is very similar to what Heylin is suggesting. Here is your previous note: thread.cfm?threadid=141964&messages=111#3274135 |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Desert Dancer Date: 03 Jan 12 - 02:39 PM I may have confused the issue; to clarify, the Jennie Devlin book contains both the House Carpenter and Banks of Claudy, but they're given as entirely separate songs. The verses I transcribed are what she had as the House Carpenter. ~ Becky in Tucson |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 03 Jan 12 - 12:00 PM Maybe it would be best to go ahead and put up what Heylin says about the Sullivan text. It's a long quote: "Just one other American version preserves these "former vows." Unlike Wilkinson's and Wilson's collected texts, the rendition in question, uncovered in Springfield, Vermont, not only survived uncontaminated by De Marsan and his various proxys but by any derivative from Diverting Songs. The female repository, one Ellen M. Sullivan, first recollected the song to collector Helen Hartness Flanders on July 13, 1932. All that she remembered was that a, "girl promises to marry a man who goes away, dies and as a ghost returns and says," Oh come with me to the banks of Claudy, And perform those promises to me, me. later in the song: When she came to the banks of Claudy, Oh, sorry sore was she. There were seven ships sailing to the brim. They sunk to the bottom and was never seen no more. When she came to the banks of Claudy, Oh, sorry sore was she, she, For the ships they were made of the yellow beaten gold And the sails were of silk so fine.4 A month later Flanders returned and managed to glean some additional verses. Mrs. Sullivan called the song 'George Allis', and recalled that the girl in the song, "lay asleep and his ghost came to her." She then recalled much the same verse as Miss Lam: Oh, begone, begone, young George Allis, For I am a married wife, Oh, begone, young George, she said, For fear there may be strife. as well as a verse not replicated in any other traditional text, though the second couplet approximates to Morrow Wilson's third verse: That is not the promise you gave to me To come in seven long years and a day, So now come on to the salty seas And perform your promises to me.5 At last we encounter the evidence that Dylan's "ghost come back from out in the sea" once existed in American tradition. Indeed, in Sullivan's text the ghost came to her in her sleep, placing it in the long-established tradition of revenant ("one who returns after a long absence, esp. the dead"6) ballads. The hugely popular "Well met, well met" opening, though, does not fit easily with such a night visitation. As an intriguing addendum, the version that Mrs. Sullivan sang to Flanders carried a burden, the final line of each verse repeating the final word and then the entire line, thus: For fear there may be strife, strife, For fear there may be strife.7 This rare verse-ending also appears in the version collected by Wilkinson from Miss Lam, this time as a three-word repeat, thus: And I think he's a nice young man, man, man, And I think he's a nice young man.8 perhaps suggesting a connection somewhere down the stream of tradition. Mrs. Sullivan also commented to Flanders that, "He was dead and came back as a ghost after seven years because of the oath that was between them,"9 making explicit the revenant nature of the dæmon lover and recognizing the 'broken vows' as the song's key motif. This sort of explication is not repeated in American tradition until Mr. Dylan's highly unusual rendition, which also 'reveals' the revenant nature of the 'man' at the outset (though not the "former vows"). Comparison with A Collection Of Diverting Songs makes it plain that the 'blame' for a form of rationalization that turned the former lover from revenant to flesh and blood should not be placed at any Yankee's door. It had already occured within the (perhaps exclusively) English strain from which the American broadside largely came. In this rationalized 'English' derivative, the lady does not leave her husband and children without some considerable persuasion on her lover's part; and does so only because of the obligation (and, perhaps, love) she still felt for her former dear. As we shall see, in Scottish oral tradition (and the two American texts that best reflect that tradition) the lady is taken to her death not because she elected to take her lover's proferred escape route - "dying from guilt far from her children,"10 as Alan Lomax chose to put it - but because she had proved untrue to her former love, having broken the solemn vows she swore some (seven) years before. The broken vows may be implicit in some twentieth century texts - "I have returned from the salt, salt sea/ And all for the sake of thee" does imply at least some debt of honour ("the love of thee" makes for an inferior reading) - but more traditional texts, of which the renditions collected by Wilkinson, Wilson and Flanders are rare vestiges, make the vow not only explicit, but the veritable crux of our tale. Perhaps the most extraordinary aspect of the Sullivan text, though, is that she has a name for the revenant, George Allis, seemingly a simple phonetic corruption of the only name ever assigned to the mysterious ex-lover, James Harris (or as Peter Buchan would have it, James Herries). Though it was under this title that the song came to be assigned in Child's English & Scottish Popular Ballads, only Buchan called the song by this name." |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Brian Peters Date: 03 Jan 12 - 10:44 AM "does anyone else conflate Banks of Claudy with Demon Lover" Much further up this thread I listed a whole set of variants for the 'Banks of Italy' line, many of them apparently nonsensical. It seems to me as though a particular singer, seeking some appropriate banks for the destination of the journey, settled on 'Claudy' on the basis of a memory of a different song. Apart from the name there doesn't seem to be any substance of either of the two 'Banks of Claudy' songs that I know with thatversion of 'House Carpenter'. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 03 Jan 12 - 10:22 AM Becky, thanks for the Jennie Devlon fragment of the "House Carpenter"/"Banks of Claudy" fragment. When I first glanced at the fragment that Flanders collected from Mrs. Sullivan, I skipped over it and didn't see it as being of much relevance. But reading Heylin's study changed my mind on this. He devotes a bit of discussion to Mrs. Sullivan's version and sees it as a significant example of the survival of an independent Scottish tradition of "The Daemon Lover" in North America. His discussion of this is too complicated to present here, but please do take a look at his (long) article here: http://www.clinton-heylin.com/PDFs/DaemonBitz.pdf Scroll down about a fourth of the way to section (iii) "All For The Sake of Thee". Heylin discusses a Virginia text from Miss Tyrah Lam of Elkton, VA (1935) in the Wilkinson Collection at UVA (actually he has discussed this text in detail in the previous section along with the fine version from Kentucky by Clay Walters). And then he mentions an East Tennessee text from Charles Morrow Wilson. His question in all of this is the role of "the vows", which in fact are "broken vows". This theme does not show up in the De Marsan broadside tradition, but they are in the older Scottish traditions. And it is in this context that Heylin finds the Sullivan text of the "Banks of Claudy" important, since the Sullivan text begins with: Oh come with me to the banks of Claudy, And perform those promises to me, me. And: That is not the promise you gave to me To come in seven long years and a day, So now come on to the salty seas And perform your promises to me. Heylin says: "Perhaps the most extraordinary aspect of the Sullivan text, though, is that she has a name for the revenant, George Allis, seemingly a simple phonetic corruption of the only name ever assigned to the mysterious ex-lover, James Harris (or as Peter Buchan would have it, James Herries). Though it was under this title that the song came to be assigned in Child's English & Scottish Popular Ballads, only Buchan called the song by this name." Oh, begone, begone, young George Allis, For I am a married wife, Oh, begone, young George, she said, For fear there may be strife. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Desert Dancer Date: 03 Jan 12 - 12:43 AM I see that the Ballad Index entry says "Flanders-Ancient3, pp. 287-321, "James Harris, or the Daemon Lover" (13 texts plus 3 fragments, some mixed with other songs (e.g. "G" has the "Turtle Dove" verse; "N" is very confused, with references to the Banks of Claudy), 11 tunes) {A=Bronson's #93, N=#141}" and that this has been picked up in Roud (as listed by Mick Pearce above, but does anyone else conflate Banks of Claudy with Demon Lover? ~ Becky in Tucson |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Desert Dancer Date: 02 Jan 12 - 11:04 PM And, I should have noted: Jennie Devlin's version is a fragment, and with the singer insisting that the woman returned to her child. "Well met, well met, O my own true love, Well met, well met, O," cries she. "I've come across the deep blue sea, And it's all for o'er the love of thee." "If I am to give up my house carpenter, And also my little baby, What have you got to support me upon, On the banks of the old Tennessee?" "I have six ships a-sailing the sea, And one hundred and ten Of your own countrymen For to be at your command." [So she goes with him] -- states the singer She picks up her dear little baby, And kisses it one, two, and three, Saying "Stay at home with your daddy, While I go sailing on the sea." ~ Becky in Tucson |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Desert Dancer Date: 02 Jan 12 - 10:49 PM Banks of Claudy as a version of the House Carpenter? I don't know if I buy that. Is that Helen Flanders's interpretation? However, a quick Google search for "house carpenter + banks of claudy" to see if anyone else had anything to say about them brought up a this: "Never without a song: the years and songs of Jennie Devlin, 1865-1952" by Katharine D. Newman (1995, University of Illinois Press, foward by Alan Lomax). Jennie Devlin, has a version of the House Carpenter (and also a version of the Banks of Claudy). Though this book was published in 1995, the process of its creation started with recordings made by Lomax and the author in 1936-1938. Jennie Devlin was born in 1865 in upstate New York, rejected by her mother, and by age 5 was "bound out" as an indentured servant working for her keep; at age 14 she began working for wages. She spent several years with a family of itinerant basketmakers and fiddlers who traveled throughout the northeastern states and into southern Canada, where she started building her repertoire of songs. (see review by Gloria Eive in MELUS Vol. 21, No. 1, Spring, 1996) She later lived in Philadelphia and Gloucester, New Jersey. Library of Congress catalog record for the recordings (the recordings are not available online, unfortunately) If you scroll up at the first link (to Google Books), you'll see the tune, as well (although the transcriptions for this collection are strongly criticized by Gloria Eive), and quite a bit of the book is available. ~ Becky in Tucson |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 02 Jan 12 - 06:45 PM In his study of the origins of Bob Dylan's version of "The House Carpenter," Clinton Heylin notices a number of verses that show up in various renditions of this ballad in the U.S. that are not found in the De Marsan/J. Andrews broadside of the mid-1800s. He comments on this broadside saying, "The so-called De Marsan broadside, actually first published by De Marsan's predecessor J. Andrews in New York circa 1857 - and rapidly adopted by American printers of songsters and broadsides like Delaney and Wehamn - seems to have played a large part in any mini-revival, at the same time loosening the grip of all previous templates on American tradition. Of the 200+ versions collected in America in the twentieth century, not even a handful omit this text's unmistakeable watermark. In other words, this nineteenth century American broadside, a descendant of a late seventeenth-century English broadside, has been almost entirely responsible for the song's survival, and the form of its survival, in twentieth century tradition." But what about those verses that keep showing up in the American versions that are not in the De Marsan broadside? Through a detailed analysis, Heylin traces these verses back to either Scottish versions of the ballad, or to other Scottish ballads. On this basis he is able to hypothesize that there were earlier, or at least other sources for the spreading popularity of "The House Carpenter" in America, and to further posit that these sources were more than likely Scottish. Here are those verses that are not a part of the De Marsan broadside, but which show up in various American versions of the ballad, which Heylin has been able to trace back to Scottish origins. If you will leave your house carpenter, And go along with me. I'll take you where the grass grows green, On the banks of sweet Italy. [the use of "sweet Italy"] O hold your tongue of your former vows, For they'll bring bitter strifes. O hold your tongue of your former vows, For I have become a wife. -- She dressed herself in rich attire, Most glorious to behold, And as she tread upon her road She shone like the glittering gold. --- Oh, what is that [hill] that shines so white, That shines as white as snow? Oh, those are the hills of heaven itself, Where we may never go. Oh, what is that [hill] that shines so black, That shines as black as a crow? Oh, that is the [hills] of Hell itself, Where you and I must go. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 30 Dec 11 - 06:25 PM Here is Bob Dylan's version, from Heylin: [spoken:] Here's a story about a ghost come back from out in the sea, come to take his bride away from the house carpenter. 1. Well met, well met, my own true love, Well met, well met, cried he, I've just returned from the salt, salt sea, And it's all for the love of thee. 2. I could have married a king's daughter there, She would have married me, But I have forsaken my king's daughter there, And it's all for the love of thee. 3. Well, if you could have married a king's daughter there, 'm sure you're the one to blame, For I am married to a house carpenter, And I'm sure he's a fine young man. 4. Forsake, forsake your house carpenter, And come away with me, I'll take you to where the green grass grows, On the shores of sunny Italy. 5. So up she picked her babies three, And gave them kisses one-two-three, saying, Take good care of your Daddy when I'm gone, And keep him good company. 6. Well, they were sailing about two weeks, I'm sure it was not three, When the younger of the girls [sic], she came on deck, Saying [she] wants company. 7. Well, are you weeping for your house and home, Or are you weeping for your fee? Well, I'm not weeping for my house carpenter, I'm weeping for my babies three. 8. Oh what are those hills yonder, my love, They look as white as snow, Those are the hills of heaven, my love, Where you and I'll never know. 9. What are those hills yonder, my love, They look as black as night, Those are the hills of hellfire, my love, Where you and I will unite. 10. Oh, twice around went the gallant ship, I'm sure it was not three, When the ship all of a sudden sprung a leak And drifted to the bottom of the sea.2 |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 30 Dec 11 - 06:21 PM The Heylin material brought to my attention a version of "The House Carpenter" in the Flanders collection that I had overlooked. It was collected July 13, 1932 from Mrs. Ellen M. Sullivan of Springfield, Vermont, and was entitled "The Banks of Claudy." It is significantly different from all of the other versions collected by Flanders. Mrs. Sullivan gave two different accounts of her ballad. They are as follows, taken directly from ANCIENT BALLADS, by Helen Hartness Flanders. I think that the phrases in parentheses were spoken by Mrs Sullivan, and the phrases in brackets is commentary by Flanders. The Banks of Claudy 'Twas on the banks of Claudy (Girl promises to marry a man who goes away, dies and as a ghost returns and says) "Oh, come with me to the banks fo Claudy, And perform those promises to me." (Later in the song:) When she came to the banks of Claudy, Oh, sorry sore was she, There was seven ships sailing to the brim. They sunk to the bottom and was never seen no more. When she came to the banks of Claudy, Oh, sorry sore was she, she, For the ships they were made of the yellow beaten gold And the sails were of silk so fine. [Mrs. Sullivan remembered August 23, 1932, more of "On the Banks fo Cludy," which she called "George Allis."] (She lay asleep and his ghost came to her.) "Oh, begone, begone, young George Allis, For I am a married wife, Oh, begone, young George," she said, "For fear there may be strife." "That is not the promise you gave to me To come in seven long years and a ay, So now come on to the salty seas And perform your promises to me." [Another time later, Mrs. Sullivan "broke out" with:] "Oh, begone, begone, young George Allis, For I am a married wife; Oh, begone, young George," she said, "For fear there may be strife, strife, For fear there may be strife." "Oh, that is not the promise you made to me To come again in seven long years and a day So now come on to the salty sea And perform your promise to me, to me, And perform your promise to me." (She got up and dressed herself.) When she came to the banks of Claudy Oh, sorry, sore was she, she, For there was seen ships floating to the brim Which was never seen no more, more, Which was never seen no more. Then they sailed away for seven leagues; then they sailed away for seven leagues. She sank to the bottom of the sea, sea; She sank to the bottom of the sea And never was seen again. [Mrs. Sullivan commented: "He was dead and came back as a ghost after seven years because of the oath that was between them." --- Second Version [As sung by Mrs. Ellen M. Sullivan of Springfield, Vermont. Mrs. Sullivan says this tells of a man who was dead who came back as a ghost after seven years, because of the oath that was between him and the girl.] "O begone, begone, young George Allis," For I am a married wife; O, begone, young George, " she said, "For fear there may be strife." "that is not the promise you made to me To come in seven long years and a day, So now come on to the salty sea And perform your promises to me." When she came to the salty seas, O sorry sore was she, There were seven ships floating (sailing) to the brim, they were sunk to the bottom and was never seen again. When she came t the banks of Claudy O sorry sore as she, Fr the ships they were made of the yellow beaten gold And the sails of the silk so fine. Then they sailed away for seven leagues She sank to the bottom of the sea, sea, And never was seen again. [Another time Mrs. Sullivan changed the verses slightly:} "O, that is not the promise you gave to me To be gone for a year and a day, To come again in seven long years and a day; So now come on to the salty sea And perform your promises to me, to me." When she came to the banks of Claudy For the ship was made of the yellow beaten gold And the sails were of silk so fine, fine, And the sails were of silk so fine, (He was dead and came back as a ghost. She was asleep; she dreamt he came back. She begged to go back to her husband and baby.) And she sank to the bottom of the sea, sea, And she sank to the bottom of the sea And was never seen again, There was seven ships a-floated to the brim. They sank to the bottom and were never seen no more. Heylin says: "The importance of the "former vows" to the original tale of 'The Dæmon Lover' cannot be underestimated. ... Though these "former vows" are rarely encountered in American tradition, another Stateside text, collected in Eastern Tennessee by Charles Morrow Wilson, reveals the subtext of these vows that irked the dæmon lover so: Well met, well met, my own true love, Well met, well met, said he. Now that the span of years is done I'm returnin' to marry thee. Have you wedded any other man? I'm shore I've wed no other woman. Yes, I'm wedded to a house carpenter, And I think he's a very nice man. You better leave your house carpenter And come along with me; We'll go till we come to the old salt sea, And married we will be.2 So these vows were almost certainly secret vows of marriage, exchanged by two lovers before the male partner took to sea.... Just one other American version preserves these "former vows." ...the rendition in question, uncovered in Springfield, Vermont, not only survived uncontaminated by De Marsan and his various proxys but by any derivative from Diverting Songs. The female repository, one Ellen M. Sullivan, first recollected the song to collector Helen Hartness Flanders on July 13, 1932. All that she remembered was that a, "girl promises to marry a man who goes away, dies and as a ghost returns and says," Oh come with me to the banks of Claudy, And perform those promises to me, me. ... Mrs. Sullivan also commented to Flanders that, "He was dead and came back as a ghost after seven years because of the oath that was between them,"9 making explicit the revenant nature of the dæmon lover and recognizing the 'broken vows' as the song's key motif. This sort of explication is not repeated in American tradition until Mr. Dylan's highly unusual rendition, which also 'reveals' the revenant nature of the 'man' at the outset (though not the "former vows").... Perhaps the most extraordinary aspect of the Sullivan text, though, is that she has a name for the revenant, George Allis, seemingly a simple phonetic corruption of the only name ever assigned to the mysterious ex-lover, James Harris (or as Peter Buchan would have it, James Herries). Though it was under this title that the song came to be assigned in Child's English & Scottish Popular Ballads, only Buchan called the song by this name." |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 29 Dec 11 - 04:41 PM I've spent the day reading this study by Clinton Heylin on Bob Dylan's "House Carpenter." http://www.clinton-heylin.com/PDFs/DaemonBitz.pdf Brian Peters referred to it above in this thread, and we also posted this link above. I want to recommend this piece for anybody who is seriously interested in this ballad. In attempting to answer the question: "Where did Bob get this?" Heylin launches into a major study of the history of this ballad. He examines the manuscript history and interaction, the interaction of oral tradition and the broadsides, and the relation of "The House Carpenter" to other ballads in the "Child Collection." Apparently Bob Dylan's version, which he recorded for his first Columbia album, but which was not on that album, is a rather unique version both in terms of what is usually found in North America and in terms of what was being sung during the "revival" at that time by folks like Baez, Clayton, Van Ronk and others. Here is a sample of some of what Heylin is concerned about: "That the De Marsan strain of 'House Carpenter' seems to have overwritten many a text that previously drew solace from British oral tradition is truly a damning indictment of what might be termed The Broadside Effect upon traditional processes. Even when there remains evidence of a British oral source underlying an American rendition, the De Marsan gloss has almost always been applied. This makes particularly problematic establishing the form and relative dispersal of texts prevalent in the US at the time of the De Marsan printing." |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 28 Dec 11 - 12:28 PM Here are two broadside editions of "The House Carpenter," one of which appears to tbe the DeMarsan version. http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amsshtml/amssTitles14.html Here is the one with no date or publisher. Could this be the Philadelphia version? http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/S?ammem/amss:@field(TITLE+@od1(The+house+carpenter++%5Bn++p+%5D+%5Bn++d+%5D)) And here is a picture of the actual broadside: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=amss&fileName=as1/as105530/amsspage.db&recNum=0&itemLink=S?ammem/amss:@field(TITLE+@ We are still looking for more information on the so-called "Philadelphia Broadside" version. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 28 Dec 11 - 11:18 AM Here is some background on Edith Cutting's family. http://books.google.com/books?id=MElT30avx4wC&pg=PA11&dq=An+Essex+County+Family,&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XED7Tt_hNMrb0QGY-qHBAg&sqi=2&ved= |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 28 Dec 11 - 11:03 AM Does anybody have a copy of Sarah Ogan Gunning's album "The Silver Dagger" (Rounder), from about 1976? She sings a version of "The House Carpenter" on this album. I have been unable to find either a recording of it online or the lyrics. I'd welcome the lyrics and any background information of her version. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 27 Dec 11 - 11:23 AM And also from Dave Ruch: The House Carpenter (fragment) by Celia Kelter, Tabasco, NY If you'll forsake your house carpenter And go along with me. What have you got to support me on And to keep me from slavery? Don't you see those yonder ships, As bright as bright can be, I will make you the mistress of them all If you will follow me. Dave says: "Celia Kelter was 73 years old in October 1950 when she was recorded by folklorist/collector Sam Eskin. She was a lifelong resident of the town of Tabasco NY in Ulster County in the Catskills." [She was born in 1877.] |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 26 Dec 11 - 06:54 PM I want to thank Dave Ruch for sending me a copy of Lee Knight's singing of "The Gypsy Daisy." This is actually a rather unique merging of the ballad of "The Gyspy Davey" and the ballad of "The House Carpenter." When you listen to it, it makes perfectly good sense! Lee Knight got this song from the collection of Marjorie Lansing Porter. She collected this version "from the singing of Alec Couchey of Essex NY, August 30, 1957." Knight goes on to say, "The ballad merges two of the Child Ballads, The Gypsy Davey with The House Carpenter. It also includes a verse from Lord Thomas and Fair Annet (Child 73): 'She dressed herself in rich array....' This is probably a family version since there is a similar text in Mrs Porter's notes attributed to Ora James, sister of Alec." Here is "The Gypsy Daisy." It is sung to the tune of "The Gypsy Davey." The Gypsy Daisy The Gypsy came tripping o'er the hill, The Gypsy sang so gaily, He made the wide, wide wind blow, And he won the heart of a lady. Will you forsake your house and farm? Will you forsake your baby? Will you forsake your house carpenter To roam with the Gypsy Daisy? If I forsake my house and farm, If I forsake my baby, If I forsake my house carpenter, To roam with the Gypsy Daisy. Have you anything to maintain me upon And keep me from my slavery? I have a hundred ships that are out at sea, All making for dry land, With two hundred and ten bold jolly sailor men Who will be at your command. I will take you to where the grass grows green On the banks of the sweet Willie. Then I'll forsake my house and farm, Then I'll forsake my baby. And I'll forsake my house carpenter To roam with the Gypsy Daisy. Last night I slept on a warm feather bed, Along with my landlord and baby. Tonight I'll sleep on the cold, cold ground Beside the Gypsy Daisy. She dressed herself in rich array, And riches to behold. And every street that she passed through, She showed her glittering gold. They had not been at sea but about two weeks, I'm sure it was not three. When this young maid began to weep Then wept most bitterly. Is it for my gold that you weep, Or is it for my store? Or is it for the house carpenter You never will see any more. It is not for your gold I weep, Nor is it for your store. But it's all for the love of the darling little babe, That I never will see any more. They had not been at sea about three weeks, I'm sure it was not four. When the ship sprang a leak and she sank in the sea And she sank to rise no more. Bad luck, bad luck to all sea-faring maids, Bad luck to all their lives, But it's robbing of the house carpenter And the stealing of their wives. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 26 Dec 11 - 01:11 PM Dave, thanks for all of that very useful information. I will begin putting it up today. To begin with, here is George Edward's complete version of what he called "The Ship's Carpenter." The Ship's Carpenter "It's pretty well met to my own true love, It's pretty well met," says he, "It's pretty well met to my own true love, Long time I've waited for thee, O thee, A long time I've waited for thee." "I'm married to a house carpenter, And a jolly house carpenter is he; By him I have two [three] little babes, And I can't belong with thee, O thee, I can't belong with thee. ["If I forsake my husband And my children three,] What have you to keep me on, For to keep me from slavery, O ry, For to keep me from slavery?" "I have ships all on yonder sea, Sailing from sea to dry land; Besides I have three hundred twenty sailor lads, They'll be at your command, O mand, They'll be at your command." She dress-ed herself in richery attire, And so gaily where she did dress; She went a-walkin' u and down the deck With her dress all glittering gold, O gold, With her dress all glittering gold. They hadn't sailed much more than two weeks, Two weeks had scarce come, and three, Before she was heard to cry on deck And to weep most bitterly, O ly, And to weep most bitterly. "Do you weep for gold," says he, "Or do you weep for fee? Or do you weep for the house carpenter That you left when you came along with me, O me, That you left when you came along with me?" "I don't weep for gold," she says, "Nor do I weep for fee, Nor do I weep for the house carpenter That I left when I came along with thee, O thee, That I left when I came along with thee. "But if I was worth ten thousand pounds, So freely I'd give it to thee If I could once more go on yonder shore My two [three] little babes to see, O see, My two [three] little babes to see." They hadn't sailed much more than three weeks, Three weeks, scarce coming four, Before there was a leak spring up on their deck, And her cries were heard no more, O more, And her cries were heard no more. Three times around went our gallant ship, Three times around went she, Three times around went our gallant ship, And she sunk to the bottom of the sea, O sea, And she sunk to the bottom of the sea. May a curse be onto the ship's carpenter, May a curse do them for life, May a curse be onto the ship's carpenter, To persuade away another man's wife, O wife, To persuade away another man's wife. According to Norman Cazden (FOLK SONGS OF THE CATSKILLS) George Edwards was from Sullivan County, along the Beaverkill. He lived in Grahamsville and in Roscoe. He was born March 31, 1877, in Hasbrouck. See here, and scroll up to page 19: http://books.google.com/books?id=1ZKis4hmioIC&pg=PA274&dq=Well+met,+well+met,+my+own+true+love&hl=en&ei=-D7dToXoFKbq0gGR36W5Dw&s |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Dave Ruch Date: 26 Dec 11 - 11:40 AM John, I just sent you an email with several attachments. Apologies if you received it multiple times - I was getting mixed signals from my email program about whether or not it was sending. Hope it's useful. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 26 Dec 11 - 07:05 AM Dave, I just noticed that we have only a partial copy of George Edward's version because Google Books cut some pages in the middle of it. If you, or anyone else has the whole thing, we'd welcome it here. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 26 Dec 11 - 07:02 AM Hi Dave, I emailed you, but let me say here that when you get some time we'd love to have information on the Porter/Knight version. When, where and from whom did Porter collect this version? It's combined with "Gypsy Davey" on the recording. Are the two songs somehow merged? And also lyrics would be very nice for comparative purposes. Thanks. We've got the George Edwards version listed up above here: thread.cfm?threadid=141964&messages=91#3272586 I don't think we have Celia Kelter or Martin Montonyae. I'll take a look and see what I can find. Anything you can share with us here would be appreciated. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Dave Ruch Date: 25 Dec 11 - 03:36 PM John, I've got the Lee Knight recording (and his contact info), and also have lots of info on the Marjorie Lansing Porter collection. Send me an email if you'd like any of that stuff - I don't check in here every day. Email is dave@daveruch.com Just doing a quick five-minute check through my files (we're in the middle of a busy Xmas), there are several versions of the House Carpenter that have been collected in NY & New England that I am aware of, including George Edwards from the Catskills (1940s), Celia Kelter from Ulster Co NY (1950), Martin Montonyae possibly from NJ (age 83 in 1939), and an informant named Henry (last name) from the Flanders Collection. Sorry so short - I should have a bit of time tomorrow to respond by email if you'd like any more info on any of this, then I'll be away from my files for about a week. Merry Christmas to all who celebrate it! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 25 Dec 11 - 09:11 AM Yesterday, my friend, Gibb, asked the obvious question. "What is your specific interest in finding a Massachusetts version?" So here is the story. At Thanksgiving I was up in the Boston area and was doing some looking into my family background, on my mother's father's side. That would be the Ponds. I found that they got started over here with Robert Pond and his wife, Mary, who were from Groton, in Suffolk, England. They came over, along with about 700 other folks, with Governor John Winthrop to Boston in 1630. Robert and Mary Pond settled in Dorchester. Robert was a house carpenter! Sometime in the early 1630's, he built a house there in Dorchester. That house lasted until 1873, when they tore it down to widen the road! Here is a story, with pictures about that old house: http://www.dorchesteratheneum.org/page.php?id=667 This gave some real meaning to the idea of a "house carpenter" for me. Sadly, Robert died in 1637. But, his wife, Mary, remarried. And you may have guessed it. She married a sea captain! His name was Edward Shepard and he was from Cambridge. Now I realize that the story is a little out of sequence, but all of the characters are there. Mary even had a young son, named Daniel. All of this immediately reminded me of the ballad of "The House Carpenter." And I began to wonder if any versions of this ballad had ever been found in the Boston area or in Massachusetts. So far, we have not been successful in finding such a version, although these families did multiply and spread out all over the Northeast. Robert's oldest son, Samuel, did not come over to Massachusetts with his father and mother, but apparently arrived some time later. Or, Samuel may have been a brother to Robert. Things are a little murky. But anyway a descendant of Samuel Pond shows up in the Adirondacks. He was a hero of the Battle of Plattsburg, and later settled in the early 1800's in the Elizabethtown area of Essex County. His name was Benjamin Pond. It is entirely possible that "The House Carpenter" did find its way to Massachusetts, and traveled from there. Maybe Sarah Willard came from Boston! Keep looking. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 24 Dec 11 - 02:04 PM Thanks, Brian, and the same to you, and all the rest of you as well. J. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: Brian Peters Date: 24 Dec 11 - 01:03 PM Keep up the good work, John, and a merry Christams to you! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 24 Dec 11 - 06:57 AM I think I found a recording of an Adirondack version of "The House Carpenter". It is on an album by Lee Knight called "Adirondack Ballads and Folk Song - From Lumberwoods, Iron Mines, and Communities (2005). Here is the CD: http://www.bloatedtoe.com/store/product.php?productid=16426 It is the last track and is combined with "The Gypsy Davey." I have not heard this recording and so far have not found a copy of the lyrics. Has anybody heard this and does anybody have the lyrics? It says that these are "Songs from the Collection of Historian Marjorie Lansing Porter." And we have another collection! Here is some more information on Marjorie Lansing Porter from our friends at the TAUNY website: http://adirondackmusic.org/pages/50/16/marjorie-lansing-porter I've done some initial searches for more information on this collection but I haven't found much yet. Here is what it says from the Library of Congress: "AFS 22,104-22,136: Marjorie Lansing Porter Collection Thirty-three 10-inch tapes of conversations, instrumentals, songs, and stories recorded in the Adirondack region of New York by Marjorie Lansing Porter, 1943-67. Obtained through loan from the State University of New York at Plattsburgh. The collection includes one and 1/2 linear inches of recording logs, correspondence, concordances, and notes. (66 hours; RWA 2671-2703)" I've just discovered this LOC site and and realize that there are a bunch of collections out there, most of which I am not going to be able to access! http://www.loc.gov/folklife/guides/NewYork.html I'll have to spend some more time looking at this. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Demon Lover in New England? From: John Minear Date: 23 Dec 11 - 12:39 PM Well, we have been burrowing down fairly deep in the details here for the past week on the "Willard" manuscript. I just wanted to remind everybody that I'm still looking for other versions of "The House Carpenter"/"The Daemon Lover" from northeastern part of North America - yes, we expanded our original locale from New England to this larger region. Does anyone know of any versions that we have missed? And what about the broadside printed in Philadelphia? Has anybody ever seen this thing? Is it the same as the DeMarsan version printed in NYC? Does anyone know of any recordings of any of the versions of "The House Carpenter" that we have turned up so far? Has anyone ever recorded one of these New England or Canadian versions? I know we are headed into the Christmas Weekend here, but if you need a break from all of the holiday cheer and goodwill, think a little on "The House Carpenter"! Here are some YouTube versions (none from New England that I know of) that you might enjoy: Bradley Kinkaid from Kentucky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74LuelnRQjA Peggy Seeger (with what appears to be the ending of the ballad): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ajgLW-Yps Joan Baez with the first version many of us heard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VzGibeTuGs Clarence Ashley, from Tennessee, with his classic version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op9j7X5BPGw From the Watson family in North Carolina: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlS8f23LJd0 Natalie Merchant's version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3dbVACG6M Buffy Sainte-Marie's version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko4OL6SHipk&feature=related Jean Ritchie's version from Kentucky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT2G-OuRxVE |
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