 sj |
||
|
||
BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,999 Date: 26 Aug 12 - 10:47 AM This visual says lots more than polemics. If people remember their views on this come election day, I'd call the popular vote for Obama to come in near 53% and Romney near 46%. Even with Romney's Republicans doing their best to depend on the Electoral College, they just ain't gonna have enough to win. Small relief, but some relief nevertheless. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,999 Date: 26 Aug 12 - 10:21 AM Middle Class as a socioeconomically distinct group has been variously described over the past 60 years. Putting a dollar figure on income is puerile because once take-home pay is eaten at by debt in various forms and costs rising, that figure changes little or lots, depending on a variety of circumstances and factors. That said, here is a balanced article that might be worth reading. Takes about four minutes. http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20120826/business-news/US-middle-class-shrinks.434441 |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Sawzaw Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:04 PM Suppose the highly educated sats person would like to define what constitutes the Middle Class. It would be a refreshing change from Blowhardism. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 25 Aug 12 - 09:25 PM Another of those threads that go round and round. Should have been stillborn. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Sawzaw Date: 25 Aug 12 - 09:14 PM "obscenely rich people" Like the four richest Americans? Bill Gates? Warren Buffet? Larry Ellison? Cristy Walton? All Democrats. Obama is in the top 1% too So do they deserve their wealth? __ Strongly Agree __ Somewhat Agree __ Somewhat Disagree __ Strongly Disagree |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,999 Date: 25 Aug 12 - 05:55 PM Thank you. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Sawzaw Date: 24 Aug 12 - 11:36 PM 99: if you click on the headline in the OP it will take you to the article about the survey. If you click on the word study near the top of the article it will take you to the study. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Sawzaw Date: 24 Aug 12 - 11:30 PM Blowhard Bobert is admitting that his bogus claim that somewhat disagree means the same as somewhat disagree is wrong. So now he shifts the topic to something else. Any 9th grader will tell you that somewhat agree means something different than somewhat disagree. MIT: Bressoud, D. June, 2011. The Calculus I Instructor, Launchings www.maa.org/columns/launchings/launchings_06_11.html [3] Instructors were asked to "Indicate the extent to which you agree or disagree with following statement: Calculus students learn best from lectures, provided they are clear and well-prepared." The survey gave six choices from strongly disagree to strongly agree. The response rates were Strongly disagree: 3.4%, Disagree: 12.1%, Somewhat disagree: 20.2%, Somewhat agree: 37.3%, Agree: 20.4%, Strongly agree: 6.7%. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 24 Aug 12 - 07:14 AM The reason that the middle class is shrinking is directly tied to the union busting push started under the Reagan/Thatcher regime... Their efforts have resulted in massive income shifts away from the middle class to Boss Hog and his buddies... This idea that "We're broke" is the *biggest* of BIG LIES... This is a sick, nihilistic joke that the rich are playing in all the western, developed countries... Where ever you go there are pockets of obscenely rich people living in their mansions... Here in Charlotte it Meyers Park... Miles and miles if 10,000-15,000 sq. ft mansions... Bankers live there... You want the middle class back then end the 30 year old war on the working man... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 24 Aug 12 - 07:07 AM Reagrding the survey - as there is no clear definition of the difference between the two somewhat except that one would imply that the somewhat agree would be some tendency to be more agreeing than disagreeing and vice versa for somewhat disagree - but that is purely an assumption on the part of the person analysing the poll. Also to give the poll validity or otherwise, what were the stated demographics: Ethnic origin Income level Gender Age Type of housing Level of personal debt. What weighting adjustments were applied to the analysis to ensure the result is as representative as possible? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 24 Aug 12 - 07:01 AM Joe earns $100,000... Bill earns $0... Bill and Joe's average income is $50,000... That is manipulating stats... This is the mean income, but as the sample size is small, that is pretty meaningless. because the sample size is only 2 there can be no mode or median figure. But the average spread is £100,000. Try a sample size of three adding Fred who earns $2, the mean is still high - £33,334, still no mode - we don't have a figure for the most frequent wage rate, but the median Wage rate is $2 - so we have two conflicting averages. We can also tell that 2/3 of our tiny sample earn less than the mean wage |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: dick greenhaus Date: 23 Aug 12 - 02:28 PM Bobert- Your heart's in the right place, but math isn't your strong point. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Aug 12 - 01:51 PM Yes, the middle class is dying all over the developed world, partly because our traditional manufacturing sector has moved most of the jobs to either Asia (mainly China) or to Mexico. That leaves little for North Americans to do other than push paper, tap on computer keys, and work service jobs.... And partly because of the fraudulent mortgage bubble that was created by utterly dishonest people on Wall Street and in major lending institions... And partly because incredible amounts of money are being spent on unnecessary and unjustified wars in the Middle East...rather than using that money for social infrastructure and civilian interests back home. Who did this change benefit? Well, it benefited the military-industrial sector in the USA. It benefited the Pentagon and the CIA. It benefited the oil companies and other major corporations...and their CEOs. It benefited the politicians (both Democrats and Republicans) who are in collusion with all of the above...which is why they bailed out the crooks who caused the financial crash in 2008. If the middle class could elect some people who really represent them, this wouldn't have happened. But they can't. They are not offered any candidates who really represent them, although that's not what they're told at election time, needless to say. They are just offered a bunch of phony promises and befuddled by a bunch of divide-and-conquer propaganda to make them fight with each other over which representatives of the Elite they cast their vote for. That's how you run an Oligarchy while pretending you have a democracy. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: pdq Date: 23 Aug 12 - 12:59 PM "...America ranks roughly alongside a number of Second and Third World nations in terms of income distribution..." Yes, but the US and Canada have the Middle Class which very few countries can claim. People can move up or down the economic ladder and are not trapped as they are in the usual elite/peon societies that are the norm now and throughout history. Trouble is, the Middle Class is dying. It took a huge hit over the last four years due to the collapse of single family house values. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,999 Date: 23 Aug 12 - 12:36 PM I appreciate that info, but I would still like to see the original list of questions/statements that were in this particular poll. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Sawzaw Date: 23 Aug 12 - 07:39 AM HintIf you want to direct somebody to an interesting site on the Web (or to information that's at another location at the Mudcat Cafe), the best way to do it is by posting a clickable link. We have a Make a link ("blue clicky") tool at the bottom of message boxes that will make links for you. Click here to try it. You have to highlight and copy the text that results, and paste it into the proper place in your message. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,999 Date: 23 Aug 12 - 03:34 AM Can anyone link to a place I can view the questions asked in this poll? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Sawzaw Date: 22 Aug 12 - 11:56 PM Bobert still does not answer the question about why Harvard, Yale, Washington Post, New York Times and Bobert himself uses the term Somewhat. Just Blowhard diversionary tactics. First Bobert claims. ""Somewhat agree" and "somewhat disagree" are the same..." Then Bobert says: "if the US is somewhat typical" By Bobert's previous statement Somewhat typical is the same ans somewhat not typical. So why would he use such an ambiguous term to try to prove anything? Also the learned Bobert said "I factor in the "corporate/establishment variable" which means that the number is probably somewhat higher... Learned that in "Statistics 201" which dealt alot with polls..." According to Bobert somewhat higher also means somewhat lower so there he is again violating his own rules. So all he can do is make personal attacks instead of admitting he is wrong or that Harvard Yale, Washington Post & New York Times are wrong for using "somewhat agree" "Any pollster who actually passed Stats 201 (3 credits) wouldn't have *deducted* that "somewhat agree" = agree and would have designed a poll that was more academically honest..." Bobert is saying Yale and Harvard are academically dishonest. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,999 Date: 22 Aug 12 - 05:38 PM "An international comparison from the CIA's World Factbook shows that America ranks roughly alongside a number of Second and Third World nations in terms of income distribution, including Iran, Uganda, Cambodia and China." Also from the Huff Post. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 22 Aug 12 - 05:07 PM That might have been the trick, brucie, I don't perzectly remember the algebra but it sho nuff was tricky, just like most polls that use term like "somewhat"... BTW, I have no problem with statistics... Stats are important when they are not manipulated... Here's the kind of stat that is manipulative... Joe earns $100,000... Bill earns $0... Bill and Joe's average income is $50,000... That is manipulating stats... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST,999 Date: 22 Aug 12 - 09:23 AM "Professor Snellings proved that 1 = 2 as an example of how folks can manipulate statistics..." Although I never learned from Professor Snellings, I believe that proof was algebraic: The Proof that 2 = 1 1) a = b 1) Given 2) a2 = ab 2) Multiply both sides by a 3) a2-b2 = ab-b2 3) Subtract b2 from both sides 4) (a+b)(a-b) = b(a-b) 4) Factor both sides 5) (a+b) = b 5) Divide both sides by (a-b) 6) a+a = a 6) Substitute a for b 7) 2a = a 7) Addition 8) 2 = 1 8) Divide both sides by a ####################################### Solution: Part one: Step five is wrong. The rules of mathematics do not allow us to divide by zero. Since a and b are equal, (a-b) = 0. Therefore, we cannot divide by (a-b)! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 22 Aug 12 - 08:38 AM Don't ask me, Sawz, why some supposed learned people do stuff that is counter to their chosen area of study but George Mason seems to have more than it's share... I mean, there are a hand full of supposed learned climatologists who either don't believe in global warming or that man's burning of so much stuff has anything to do with it... This study/poll falls into that category... Now, Sawz ol' buddy... I have explained it to you from an academically accurate position... I happened to have bothered to learn statistics in college and that is why I *generally* don't use polls to make my points here in Mudcat... Yes, there are a few occasions where I have but, by in large, stay away from them because of that first day in Stats 201 where Professor Snellings proved that 1 = 2 as an example of how folks can manipulate statistics... So there is nothing else that can be said... If you insist on keeping your mind closed to logic and academically accepted practices, then fine... I learned a long time ago when I was a social worker that you can't have logical discussion with mentally ill people when they don't wnat to hear it... Like we used to say, "How many social workers does it take to change a light bulb?" Answer: "One, but the light bulb must want to be changed"... Bye for this thread... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Sawzaw Date: 21 Aug 12 - 11:15 PM But Perfesser Bobert, how come the higher institutions of learning use somewhat in their polls if it is wrong? Are you smarter than the people at Harvard? All you have done is danced around answering the question and attempted to throw the burden of proof on me as if I am obligated to prove you are right. You are the one that says it is wrong so you need to back it up with something instead of being a blowhard that can't back up what you say with anything but more hot air, huffing and puffing and indignation. You yourself used the term "somewhat higher" which would mean the same as somewhat lower so the term is bogus. Why do you use bogus terms when you are marveling at your own intelligence? I think your hostile objection is just a display of your intolerance, hatred and hostility toward anybody that has an opinion that differs from yours so you attack them personally. You believe you are entitled to your opinion but no one else is entitled to theirs. Bobert street is definitely one way. http://people.iq.harvard.edu/~dhopkins/exitpoll.pdf Regardless of how you voted on Ballot Question 1, please tell us if you agree or disagree with the following statements: 4. "The Commonwealth of Massachusetts can reduce its annual spending by 40% without a major impact on the services it provides." __ Strongly agree __ Somewhat agree __ Somewhat disagree __ Disagree strongly |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 21 Aug 12 - 07:15 PM Yes, anything that begins "somewhat" allows for for both believe and not believe, regardless if it's on one side or the other... "Somewhat" is not an honest poll model if the summation is that the "somewhats" get counted as absolutes... That is the point here, Saws... That makes the title of the thread and the title of the article of the poll bogus... But don't believe me... Like I said... Copy this and my last post and take it to any Stats professor, even a right winged one... Then report back... Sheesh... You can't be this mentally challenged, can you??? I mean, eat up stupid... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Sawzaw Date: 21 Aug 12 - 06:02 PM Errrr, Bobert, you said the poll was bogus because somewhat agree and somewhat disagree was the same thing. The same two questions are used in polls from the highest learning institutions and from the sources you trust. Do you know better than them? Now you are back in the mode of giving someone else a job to do to prove you are right. I am afraid the burden is on you and you claim to be well equipped to prove anything you say. You are flailing around like a mule hung up in a barbed wire fence. The more you struggle, the tighter you get wrapped up. Now just face it like a man and admit you were wrong while you still have some hide left on ya. http://people.iq.harvard.edu/~dhopkins/exitpollresults2.pdf Regardless of how you voted on Ballot Question 1, please tell us if you agree or disagree with the following statements: 4. "The Commonwealth of Massachusetts can reduce its annual spending by 40% without a major impact on the services it provides." __Strongly agree __Somewhat agree __Somewhat disagree __Disagree strongly |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: GUEST Date: 21 Aug 12 - 05:58 PM The problem is not whether the public thinks the rich deserve their wealth............ The problem is that the public believes that the poor deserve to be impoverished. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Aug 12 - 05:52 PM New APP poll just out: "Chongo Chimp would make a great President of the USA and would restore dignity and responsibility to the Oval Office." Select your best answer from the list below. I strongly agree! I somewhat agree. I somewhat disagree. I strongly disagree! I don't know. Ummm...what was the question? (the Ronald Reagan response) Join the rising groundswell of support for a Primate President! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 21 Aug 12 - 05:36 PM Here's where you are wrong, M.C. Sawz... The title of your thread and the article you cited is "58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth"... Yes??? Take the simple equation of A + B = A What does B equal??? Give up??? B = 0... You with me so far??? Don't want to hurt yer M.C. head... So in the study the pollsters found (on an average, mind you) that: Those who said they strongly thought the rich deserved their wealth was 15%... We'll call that A for now and return to it later.. Now enters the word "somewhat" which Websters II New Riverside University Dictionary defines as "to some extent"... "To some extent" means that there is, at the very least, there exists a part of the thinking that does not believe or... Still with us, Sawz??? Or do you want to argue that "some extend" = "strongly believe"??? So back to A + B = 58%... If A = 15 then B = 43%... (58% - 15% = 43%) Now back to the title of the study and your thread: "58% Say the Rich Deserve their Wealth"... "Deserve" is an absolute term... "Somewhat deserve is not" a, absolute term... It is a grayish term... So, and you can copy this and take it to any real Stats professor, the statement that "58% Say the Rich Deserve their Wealth" is not supported by the data... An accurate statement would be "15% Say the Rich Deserve (an absolute) their Wealth"... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Sawzaw Date: 21 Aug 12 - 05:34 PM Bobert's Logic: West Bank <> Washington DC. West Bank = Most densely populated place on Earth. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Sawzaw Date: 21 Aug 12 - 04:53 PM Hmmmm Here is part of a lesson plan from the New York Times that uses the Somewhat Agree/Somewhat Disagree question. In my eighth grade U.S. history class, we debate the merits of having a 9/11 national holiday through a 3-corner debate. We look at a few opposing views on why 9/11 should, or should not be addressed in classrooms and then I write the statement on the board, "9/11 should be deemed a national holiday by the U.S. Congress." Students take a stand in one of three corners of the classroom 1) Strongly Agree 2) Somewhat Agree/Somewhat Disagree 3) Strongly Disagree. One student at a time from each group then has a chance to try to convince students from the other corners of the classroom to move to their corner. To conclude, we discuss who had the strongest argument and why. This is only a one-day, 50-minute lesson. It sparks great debate over the ways we really want to remember the 9/11 tragedy. â€" Jill DiCuffa Would you use that Lesson Plan Bobert? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 21 Aug 12 - 04:51 PM You are absolutely right, McG, and my apologies to the entire Mudcat community... From here on I will describe Saws condition as "mentally challenged"... I sometime think I'm back in by Mash/Social-worker Unit... Where the case files were politically correct but many social workers used politically incorrect language when talking with each other about clients... Not all, mid you... But a fair share... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 21 Aug 12 - 04:42 PM Bad methodology is bad methodology, Saws... Actually, George Mason is known for having more than its fair share of right winged professors... It would not surprise me to learn that one of their righties was involved in design a bogus poll... BTW, bogus polls are nothing new... The Rasmussen Poll is bogas as a 3 dollar bill.... They design all their questions with an outcome in mind... The 58% was the outcome that these pollsters were shooting for so they rigged it with the "somewhat" category and then included the somewhats into their final "deserve" number of 58%... Take that out and what you find its one heck of a lot less who said the rich deserve their wealth... But trying to explain sophomore stats to you is like talking to a box of creek rocks... You just don't get basic concepts or logic... Like I have said many times... Get an education, man... And get some mental health care while yer at it... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Aug 12 - 04:28 PM Using "retard" in that way is as repellant as using "Nigger" would be. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Sawzaw Date: 21 Aug 12 - 04:10 PM "The polls I am referring to are really a combination of several non-partisan polling organizations that I pay some attention to including the New York Times, the Washington Post" Ahhhhhh Here is a poll conducted by Yale University and George Mason Universityand cited by the New York Times that uses the four caetgories: Strongly agree Somewhat agree Somewhat disagree Strongly disagree I Guess Yale and George Mason need to be renamed Retard U. Eh Perfesser Bobert? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 21 Aug 12 - 02:10 PM Nor have you been to any college or perhaps even high school, Saws, as you certainly appear to be incapable of grasping simple academic concepts... Get an education, man... You are making a fool of yourself... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Sawzaw Date: 21 Aug 12 - 11:59 AM I have never been to any of them LH. Ask Perfesser Bobert. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Aug 12 - 11:21 AM Where are those 3 schools located, Sawzaw? ;-) I'm thinking maybe Shane could do a correspondence course at one or another of them and finally get his Grade 9. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Sawzaw Date: 21 Aug 12 - 10:35 AM "The polls I am referring to are really a combination of several non-partisan polling organizations that I pay some attention to including the New York Times, the Washington Post and even the network polls... While these organizations do represent the ruling class on the whole, they are at the very least somewhat in the ball part evn if they tend to scew toward the folks in power so when I see them admitting that 60% of the American people thought that the Iraq invasion was a mistake then in my mind I factor in the "corporate/establishment variable" which means that the number is probably somewhat higher... Learned that in "Statistics 201" which dealt alot with polls..." "I factor in the "corporate/establishment variable" which means that the number is probably somewhat higher... Learned that in "Statistics 201" which dealt alot with polls..." Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, The feller that wrote that evidently believes that somewhat higher actually means something different from somewhat lower. But Bobert knows that somewhat higher also means somewhat lower, right? So that guy must have taken Stats 201 at : Blowhard U. ___________ Bonehead U.__________ Retard U. ____________ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Aug 12 - 10:22 AM "...the Constitution affirm(s) that you have a right to hold private property," Does it? And are there any limits on what can be counted as "private property"? There is no clear statement in the US Constitution about a right to own private property, as you find in some constitutions. What you've got is a Fifth Amendment which says that you can only be deprived of private property through due process of law. Which isn't exactly the same thing. And there is no definition of what counts as "private property", over and above a mention in your Fourth Amendment of "houses papers and effects". |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Aug 12 - 10:00 AM Good points, guys. Money is just a tool to enable other things to be done in this society. If a tool is hoarded and locked away in a vault and not used, nothing useful gets done with it. If a tool is simply used to create more identical tools exactly like itself (more money) nothing useful gets done. The money game in North America, as practiced by the richest people in society, is played not to get anything useful done...but simply to make MORE money for the people at the top of the game...and it also enables them to eat at very expensive restaurants and buy yachts, of course. ;-) And that's a crime against the entire society. That's the crime Wall Street and the big bankers committed, and they should be on trial for having done it. Capitalism was supposed to be about creating real goods, jobs, services, education, and social infrastructure for the nation, NOT about inflating phony money bubbles to enrich a few dishonest sharks at the top of the feeding chain! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 21 Aug 12 - 09:31 AM Exactly, Musket... GNP is a measure of how many times a dollar is passed... It's called the multiplier effect... If that dollar isn't spent then it is a drain on the GNP and therefore contracts the economy (i.e. "growth")... Having $2T taken out of the US economy is taking a major toll on the US economy... I'd say that if they won't invest it then that money should be nationalized and put into repairing the crumbling infrastructure that these people depended on to earn (poor word) that $2T... And... ...200... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Musket Date: 21 Aug 12 - 04:43 AM For me, the issue is not so much wealth, but what to do with it. Money is a barter based abstraction, nothing more, nothing less. So in order for money to actually be money, it needs to be bartering. Simple. Hence mega rich people sitting on, we are told, trillions is a bit obscene if governments are having to print money to kickstart economies. The only reason quantative easing isn't causing hyper inflation is that it is replacing money that is being taken out of the system when the mega rich squirrel it away. Deserving etc is one argument. The effect is another. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 20 Aug 12 - 06:10 PM Enroll in a basic stats course, Sawz, at your local community college... The one you took at R.U. didn't teach you anything about polls or stats... BTW, I needed to have 6 credit hours in addition to two semesters of Econ in order to fill out my certification to teach high school economics... Yeah, there weren't alot of high schools that offered economics but some actually did... Stats was approved so I took it... I understand this stuff... I also enjoyed my professor who on Day One went to the chalk board and proved that 2 = 1... He wanted us to see just how stats could be manipulated... I have never forgotten that lesson... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Aug 12 - 04:02 PM Sawzaw, I honestly don't know enough about Obama's wealth to offer an opinion about that. In any case, I have no particular reason to be defending him. I'm very disappointed in what he's done while in office, I'd probably be even more disappointed by what the Republicans would do in his place, but that's merely hypothetical. Obama in office IS the present reality, and I find little or no reason to be pleased with his performance there...much as I found little or no reason to be pleased with Bush when he was in office. You're right that people can lie at exit polls, but I doubt that most of them would. They can also lie to any other poll, and there may be a few who do, but I doubt that most do. Most people can't wait to express their opinion about anything when asked...they're so damn proud of it!...so they usually DO say what they really mean. ;-) See what I'm getting at? Are you sure that polls have NO influence on your opinions? How about on your level of confidence, your mood, etc? Most people find it somewhat discouraging and depressing if a poll seems to say that their viewpoint is not favored by a majority of their fellow citizens. If they get discouraged enough, then they may not vote. Again...see what I'm getting at? The political parties worry about that a lot, and it's not surprising that they do. They FEAR their supporters losing confidence! I can well understand that an interested party wants to gauge the public mood. That's fine. I just don't think the results should then be openly publicized and used as a proganda device in order to further manipulate the public mood. And they are. Continually. It's a game. We deserve better than a game when it comes to public service, and the politicians are supposed to be (cough! cough!) public servants. But in reality they're not. They're servants of the elite whose ranks they come from. And that has become more and more obvious in the last few decades. Or maybe it was always obvious, and we (the aging demographic of the 50s and 60s) have by now seen enough time and experience go by to realize it. What you have a choice of at election time is to vote for one half of the elite...or the other half of the elite...both of whom pretend they are for "the little guy". An elite that pretends to represent the general public, but that represents only itself and its own interests. Obama is part of that elite. So is Romney. So is pretty well anyone who ever gets to run for president or for the Senate. And so are most of the Representatives (although the odd one might slip through who is not really from the elite...but so few of those do that it makes little difference). It takes a lot of money and a lot of friends to win an election campaign. Most of it comes directly from...the elite. Remember...in your elections I have no horse to back. I have no reason to be defending Mr Obama, and I have no reason to be backing Romney either. They're both snake oil salesman to me. I feel about them the way you might have felt about 2 Russian Communist Party leaders who were jockeying to be the next Premier of Soviet Russia after Brezhnev or Krushchev. When you totally disbelieve in an existing governmental system somewhere...why would you favor one of its creatures over the other? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Sawzaw Date: 20 Aug 12 - 03:22 PM What polls do is give some interested party an indication of what people think. I do not let Polls influence my opinions. I weight the facts and form my own opinions regardless if I am in the majority or not. There is still nothing to make people tell the truth when exiting. They can say anything they want. Especially if they think they are under peer pressure. Do you, LH, believe Obama deserves his wealth? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Aug 12 - 03:00 PM Do you think, Sawzaw, that the poll you quote from was an exercise that would benefit people in any way...or one which would further divide them against one another? Are most polls anything more than an attempt to push some kind of agenda, score some kind of propaganda point for somebody, and manipulate people's views? Should we even have them? Do they do more harm than good? What do you think? Pre-election polls, for instance, can often influence voters to vote...or not to vote...depending on which way they think the wind is blowing. They'd rather vote for a "winner" than for a "loser", so they'll jump ship or even change sides if they think their candidate is losing ground. Do you think that's a good thing? I don't. I would prefer a society where we had no polls. Also, the questions are often overly simplistic, encouraging a knee-jerk response rather than careful thought, and they're often worded to solicit a pre-determined response, and that misleads people. I regard polls kind of the way I do legalized gambling, I think they're a vice that greatly harms a society. One poll I am in favour of, however: exit polls at elections. They can help to expose voting fraud. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Sawzaw Date: 20 Aug 12 - 02:05 PM So if the two questions are the same, how come people answered them different? How would you answer the two? The same? Check both? One or the other? Oh I forgot, you are a blowhard the never commits to an answer. Any 9 year old kid would know the difference between somewhat agree and some what disagree and they would be smart enough not to confuse deserve with agree. Also they would have enough computer skills to know how to emphasize a word without using ** like they did in the mainframe 60's But there was arrested development at Blowhard U. They still believe that the West Bank is no larger than Washington DC at Blowhard U. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 20 Aug 12 - 01:14 PM Yo, Retard alum... "Somewhat agree" and "somewhat disagree" are the same... It's like "partly cloudy" or "partly sunny" or... The glass is "half full" or "half empty"... Any pollster who actually passed Stats 201 (3 credits) wouldn't have *deducted* that "somewhat agree" = agree and would have designed a poll that was more academically honest... Of course, that pollster might have been one of your classmates at R.U.??? B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Sawzaw Date: 20 Aug 12 - 11:38 AM Dear blind Bobert: Evidently you learned to read at Blowhard U. There were four categories. None of them mentioned deserve. strongly agree somewhat agree somewhat disagree strongly disagree By your boneheaded Blowhard U logic, "somewhat disagree" would would also imply "Somewhat agree" Did you even bother to look at the study? Typical Blowhard procedure. Do not even look at the thing they are discussing and act as if they know all about it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth From: Bobert Date: 20 Aug 12 - 09:57 AM As I pointed out earlier, the study is bogus... The pollsters took two categories "deserve" + "somewhat deserve" to get to 58%... "Somewhat deserve" does not = "deserve" as it implies "Somewhat don't deserve"... Stats 001 (bonehead stats, remedial, non credit) B~ |
