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can accompanists lift the music
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Subject: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 29 Sep 12 - 02:48 PM certain people try to claim that accompanists cannot lift music, my experience has been different, what do other people think? |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Paul Davenport Date: 29 Sep 12 - 03:32 PM I'm with you Dick, I have heard accompanists that could lift a tired dancer off the floor let alone lift the music. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: gnu Date: 29 Sep 12 - 03:38 PM If the play Rhan as good as I used to, yes. >;-) Of course they can but it has to be done right. "Right" is harder to define than "folk". Again... >;-) |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST Date: 29 Sep 12 - 04:58 PM What do you class as accompanists |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Jack Campin Date: 29 Sep 12 - 05:53 PM Dick has started this thread as a way of importing an argument that started in TheSession. It got fairly acrimonious, which is why Jeremy has deleted it. It's yet another occasion when Dick is importing a grudge from aomewhere else and hoping somebody will agree with a position he got trounced for advocating over there. What Dick is objecting to is a point made at length by Michael Gill there, that in an Irish session, no amount of ingenuity in an accompaniment can do anything to improve the performance of a melody. It may have other desirable effects on the performance as a whole, but how well the melody comes across is solely the result of what the melody players put into it. Which seems to me to be pretty much right for most Irish session music. If there are exceptions, I don't recall Dick providing them. I wouldn't make the same argument for Scottish session tunes, which often come out of the danceband tradition where the harmonic and rhythmic backing may be conceived as a unit with the tune. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Manitas_at_home Date: 29 Sep 12 - 07:01 PM They certainly can full stop. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Bobert Date: 29 Sep 12 - 08:43 PM Yes, it can... However, if the piece is hopelessly flawed than there's not much that can be done to change that... B~ |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,Stim Date: 29 Sep 12 - 09:12 PM Given that this is another forum, with another constituency, whatever may have moved Dick to begin it, it seems to me that it is a new discussion, free to move whither it may. Though the eminent Mr. Campin may not have intended to, by providing the cogent points from the discussion in the other forum, he has pretty much collaborated in it continuing it here. For myself, I rather lean toward the argument that, regardless of the musical genre, when a melody is propounded, the whole point of an accompaniment it to enhance it. I must also be considered that it is possible to accompany by playing the melody. Given that, I must admit that I am amused by Master Jack's comment that "in an Irish session, no amount of ingenuity in an accompaniment can do anything to improve the performance of a melody." |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Don Firth Date: 29 Sep 12 - 09:36 PM If an accompaniment is well conceived, it cannot enhance the melody as such (the melody is what it is), but it can enhance the whole performance. It acts in the same way that a setting does for a jewel or a frame does for a painting. But it should not overpower the song or detract (distract) from it. If someone looks at a painting, then thinks "What a nice frame!" then the frame has failed in its function. Same thing with the song and the accompaniment. The word itself says it. It's an accompaniment. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: michaelr Date: 30 Sep 12 - 01:34 AM Irish tunes - which I suppose Dick is talking about - are open to many different accompaniments, limited only by the accompanist's harmonic imagination and skill. Purists will keep claiming that they should not be accompanied at all (except in unison), but they have been left far behind by developments in the past 50-80 years. Just ask Donal Lunny. Making the tunes interesting to a broader, international audience has been possible through the development of more intriguing orchestration such as Mr Lunny has been perpetrating for some decades now, with bands such as The Bothy Band, Planxty, Moving Hearts and Coolfin. The naysayers are clearly left in the dust - or the museum, as it were. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,Alan Whittle Date: 30 Sep 12 - 04:26 AM Its a matter of judgement. And your judgement gets better as you get older. I play rhythm guitar in Irish music sessions quite often.. Obviously there are pieces in which a meretricious guitar player is quite out of place and will detract from the piece - so if you're experienced enough - you shut up. Other pieces will take all the flash you can flaunt, and then some. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: treewind Date: 30 Sep 12 - 05:20 AM Of course they can lift it, but they they can't half drag it down too sometimes! |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Leadfingers Date: 30 Sep 12 - 05:29 AM It ALL depends on the musicians - The OLD Oyster band was very good band , but were definately lifted when Ashley H came in on bass after a few bars ! And I have seen a VERY desultary Irish tune session lifted by the inclusion of a visiting guitarst . At the same time , as ststed above , the accompanist can drag a session down . |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Jack Campin Date: 30 Sep 12 - 05:57 AM I am amused by Master Jack's comment that "in an Irish session, no amount of ingenuity in an accompaniment can do anything to improve the performance of a melody." It wasn't my comment - I was simply citing Michael. He has often said that in Irish traditional music, the melody is all that matters, and the presence of guitarists or bodhran owners can only obscure it. I don't entirely agree, but he's more right than wrong. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 30 Sep 12 - 06:34 AM no, I only wished to get different opinions, I made no reference to any specific discussion elsewhere. if steve shaw and jack campin bring in a different discussion that is their doing and their problem, mean while can we discuss this without reference to the other discussion, Iwould appreciate that, thankyou. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Sep 12 - 06:40 AM The discussion is still going on over there as I type this (DADGAD thread, started on Sept. 26). The only difference here is that Dick knows he can post without fear of Michael putting him right. That's all, folks. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 30 Sep 12 - 08:56 AM well, Steve that is a matter of opinion, I happen to think, THAT GUITAR ACCOMPANIMENT when done well lifts the music. I used to gig with a guy called Patrick Forester who was an excellent accompanist he also played with Jim Bainbridge, his guitar accompaniments were excellent and really did lift the music, I have also been accompanied by Martin Carthy, Jez Lowe, and Richard Grainger, all of whom added to the overall sound. I have also had to suffer in sessions, guitarists who did not listen and who should not have been playing because they were unfamiliar with the tune and the key. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 30 Sep 12 - 09:08 AM
From: Jack Campin - PM Date: 29 Sep 12 - 05:53 PM Dick has started this thread as a way of importing an argument that started in TheSession. It got fairly acrimonious, which is why Jeremy has deleted it. It's yet another occasion when Dick is importing a grudge from aomewhere else and hoping somebody will agree with a position he got trounced for advocating over there. What Dick is objecting to is a point made at length by Michael Gill there, that in an Irish session, no amount of ingenuity in an accompaniment can do anything to improve the performance of a melody. It may have other desirable effects on the performance as a whole, but how well the melody comes across is solely the result of what the melody players put into it. Which seems to me to be pretty much right for most Irish session music. If there are exceptions, I don't recall Dick providing them. I wouldn't make the same argument for Scottish session tunes, which often come out of the danceband tradition where the harmonic and rhythmic backing may be conceived as a unit with the tune." |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 30 Sep 12 - 09:29 AM Donegal highlands[may of which were originally strathspeys and donegal music has had a big scottish influence, so JACK are you advocating that its ok for guitarists to accompany donegal music because it i influenced by Scotland, and presumably Mazurkas are ok because they originate for continental europe, along with Sliabh luchra polkas and slides. I know of one slide that is in fact a version of the jenny lind polka, which is not a tune of Irish origin. Jack your argument is ridiculous, there is no such thing as pure irish music, a sizeable proprtion of the reels came from Scotland as did the highlands, the mazurkas came from europe, music is international. to say it is ok to accompany scots music but not irish music. is illogical, because much of the music is the same. even O Carolan, whose music is fairly old and often considered irish, met other musicians from different countries, and his harp tunes are frequently accompanied and on occasions, his tunes[ or did they originate in a foreign country and he claimed them] turn up in different traditions, are you saying that o carolans tunes should only be played in a linear way without chords?. Jack your argumrnt has the logic of the mad hatters tea party |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 30 Sep 12 - 10:26 AM here are another couple of examples, money musk composed as scottish strathspey, played in ireland and america as a reel, so do we allow scottish and american tradtions to accompany but prevent irish players from doing so, I have never heard anything so daft. the green fields of america [irish reel], turns up in appalachia as mother flanagan, like wise the teetotaller. music is international ,jack campin can go around putting forward his proposotions, that scottish music can be accompanied, but irish music not, but.. musicians wherever they are will play a tune on its merits not its origins, and rightly so, because JACKS proposition is not logical |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Sep 12 - 11:32 AM Well I've read Jack's response and it seems to me that you're responding to someone else entirely. Jack does not appear to have spoken the words you've put in his mouth. Puzzled of Bude |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Peter the Squeezer Date: 30 Sep 12 - 11:49 AM Generally (not just in folk / trad) it depends on two things - a) the nature of the item being performed, and b) the ability of the accompanist. Accompaniment is a talent possessed by few musicians. It takes skill to support a soloist without drowning them out. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,Alan Whittle Date: 30 Sep 12 - 12:47 PM Peter the Squeezer - I bet he does a good spot.....! |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 30 Sep 12 - 01:16 PM steve shaw. if you cant read go to specsavers,
From: Jack Campin - PM Date: 29 Sep 12 - 05:53 PM Dick has started this thread as a way of importing an argument that started in TheSession. It got fairly acrimonious, which is why Jeremy has deleted it. It's yet another occasion when Dick is importing a grudge from aomewhere else and hoping somebody will agree with a position he got trounced for advocating over there. What Dick is objecting to is a point made at length by Michael Gill there, that in an Irish session, no amount of ingenuity in an accompaniment can do anything to improve the performance of a melody. It may have other desirable effects on the performance as a whole, but how well the melody comes across is solely the result of what the melody players put into it. Which seems to me to be pretty much right for most Irish session music. If there are exceptions, I don't recall Dick providing them. I wouldn't make the same argument for Scottish session tunes, which often come out of the danceband tradition where the harmonic and rhythmic backing may be conceived as a unit with the tune. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Sep 12 - 01:39 PM What Jack said is full of caveats, Dick, but, as ever, you only see black and white (maybe Specsavers can fix it for you). It may have other desirable effects on the performance as a whole... right for most Irish session music ...and so on for the references to Scottish tunes. Hurry up and post, Jack, to say to me "Leave it, Steve, he's not worth it..." |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 30 Sep 12 - 01:57 PM Steve, he says I wouldn't make the same argument for Scottish session tunes, which often come out of the danceband tradition where the harmonic and rhythmic backing may be conceived as a unit with the tune. well a lot of them are the same tunes. Steve , your remarks and your persistent personal attacks reflect poorly upon yourself, give it a break, you have accused me of being dishonest, when i never mentioned the session discussion, both you and Jack clearly have axes to grind, can the rest of us discuss this without your unpleasant comments, in other words get off my back. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,sturgeon Date: 30 Sep 12 - 01:57 PM there is no such thing as pure irish music Come and tell us that down in Connemara,Schweik! |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 30 Sep 12 - 02:30 PM it is fact, sturgeon, all musicians are influenced by other sources even o carolan, plus, within irish music there are many different regional styles, for example donegal, which is heavily influenced by scottish music. another example are a lot of the long dances such as haymakers which are very similiar to english long dances, Sturgeon I am not afraid of speaking the truth anywhere including Connemara, HARDLY SURPRISING,since Ireland was under English rule for centuries. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,sturgeon Date: 30 Sep 12 - 02:35 PM You've thoroughly missed my point. You wrote that there is no such thing as pure Irish music. So what do you make of all our grand Connemara airs? |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Stanron Date: 30 Sep 12 - 03:16 PM I've come a bit late to this discussion but I'll start with saying that anyone who disagrees with Mr Gill has me on his side automatically. If the unpleasantness of said Mr Gs comments were intended to see off the riff raff he certainly succeeded with me. Having said that an unaccompanied tune played well is a thing of beauty and obviously stands up well as it is. No one will ever know if it could have been improved with another s playing once the moment has gone. I'm a guitar player and about 15 years ago I spent about 6 months devising and learning to play an instrumental section in the middle of a Jimmy Rodgers song. 6 months! I finally felt up to trying it in a session and someone picked up a 12 string and joined in with the wrong chords. Hi Ho. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,kenny Date: 30 Sep 12 - 03:16 PM I would never presume to tell any Irish traditional musician that "there is no such thing as pure Irish music". Try telling that to Seamus Tansey or Tony McMahon. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle Date: 30 Sep 12 - 03:17 PM So right Sturgeon! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1TdAeDO-QU |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,sturgeon Date: 30 Sep 12 - 03:32 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q3qerOdvVU&feature=related |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Sep 12 - 03:34 PM The idea that you can improve a tune by adding accompaniment is perfectly ridiculous. And pompous to boot. Arrogant even. You can embellish, surround it with harmony, make an arrangement with the tune embedded... but you can't "improve" the tune. You might well come up with something very agreeable. I love all my old Planxty and Bothy Band stuff. But you can't improve a tune. Unless you change the tune, and even then you probably won't be improving it. Bach wrote six lots of tunes for unaccompanied cello, and a good few more for unaccompanied fiddle. I'd love to witness some of these tune-improving strummers having a go at "improving" 'em! |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,Alan Whittle Date: 30 Sep 12 - 04:02 PM a tune improving strummer - a genius devoid of pretentiousness and pomposity http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDWeCv0m-3s |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 30 Sep 12 - 04:31 PM I think Tony McMahon would agree with me, furthermore unlike anyone else on this thread i have given examples of tunes borrowed from other traditions, because tunes are borrowed it does not mean that the music is inferior in any way. Steve Shaw, irish tunes which happen to be music as are scottish tunes music can be improve with good accompaniment,that does not mean that they cannot be played well without accompaniment, of course they can, and of course they are better without accompanimnt than with a guitarist or accompanist who is not familiar with the tunes who plays the wrong chordsand is not listening carefully to the melody players. but good accompaniment can add to the music |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Sep 12 - 04:52 PM I think I just told you how much I love my old Bothy Band and Planxty stuff. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Jack Campin Date: 30 Sep 12 - 05:50 PM Thanks to Steve for pointing out that the thread in question was still there: TheSession on DADGAD (My contribution to it was fairly minimal, not disagreeing with anybody, and I don't feel any urge to contribute any more). |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: MartinRyan Date: 30 Sep 12 - 05:53 PM can accompanists lift the music? Of course - so what? can accompanists kill the music? Of course - so what? Regards |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Stanron Date: 30 Sep 12 - 08:01 PM I just followed the link to the Session thread. I got about halfway down before losing the will to live. There's lots of good advice for the original poster. Perhaps too much. I spent a large part of my playing career accompanying others. I enjoyed it. I also enjoy one person playing well. So what? It's music stupid! Far more important than football. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Sep 12 - 08:06 PM No it isn't. Jeez, have you never heard of Liverpool FC?? |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,Alan Whittle Date: 30 Sep 12 - 08:19 PM I think I disagree with everybody. A good rhythm player can anticipate the bum notes by the vocalist and/or soloist and can make it sound pretty good. In fact that's your job. Eddie Condon, the famous jazz banjo/guitar player said the rhythm player should be felt rather than heard. A good accompanist can sense the technical limitations of the soloist - and help them occupy the space he or she desires. If you're experience is different like the guy in Sturgeon's video, whos finger is being held . Well that's one kind of music - its not exactly the generality of things even in folk music. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Stanron Date: 30 Sep 12 - 08:26 PM Steve Shaw Actually I was born in Wallasey so perhaps I'm immune. I used to attend a lovely session in a Pub called the Salutation in Manchester. At least it was a lovely session until they invented wide screen pub TV. A first I kind of enjoyed when the football fans came in and asked us to play quieter cos the couldn't hear the football. Later on it took an uglier turn. One of the ffs was conducting a collection for something or other and one young lady put no money in. He broke her bow. As far as I am concerned football is todays equivalent to Satan's apple. Only fools and Harlots partake. But then again that's just me. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,Alan Whittle Date: 01 Oct 12 - 05:50 AM Actually Browni McGhee put it better than me. he said, 'Two wrongs can make a right. If you hear the other guy make a mistake and you play round it - it can work out sounding better than if you'd both played it right.' |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 01 Oct 12 - 06:14 AM Thanks to Steve for pointing out that the thread in question was still there: TheSession on DADGAD (My contribution to it was fairly minimal, not disagreeing with anybody, and I don't feel any urge to contribute any more)." hardly surprising, you know full well that a proportion of irish music is derived from scottish tunes, which makes your statement about it being ok to accompany scottish tunes but not irish tunes ,ridiculous, because the two traditions share a lot of tunes in common. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Steve Shaw Date: 01 Oct 12 - 07:32 AM If you repeat an untruth enough times it becomes true. Is that what you think, Dick? |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: GUEST,Al whittle Date: 01 Oct 12 - 08:17 AM you lost me there steve, which untruth would that be? |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: Steve Shaw Date: 01 Oct 12 - 08:26 AM I pointed out in my 1.39 pm post yesterday that the words ascribed to Jack by Dick did not represent what Jack was saying. Try to keep up, Al. |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: John P Date: 01 Oct 12 - 09:11 AM The idea that you can improve a tune by adding accompaniment is perfectly ridiculous. As has been noted a few times already in this thread, it all depends on the ability of the musicians. I can, in fact, make a mediocre melody player sound better than s/he can make themselves sound. Melody players who lack advanced skills and experience often put forth a flurry of notes which, even if they are in the proper time, often don't communicate the rhythm adequately. The underlying throb isn't there. I can fix that. With a good player or a bad player, I can accompany dance tunes in such a way that the accents and melodic lifts in the music that correspond to the footwork of the dancers are enhanced. As has also been noted, it all depends on what you want, just the melody or the whole sound of the performance. Someone trying to rock out on Irish tunes without an accompanist is probably going to a lot like someone not trying to rock out on Irish tunes. If power and rhythm is what you're looking for, a good accompanist is a good thing. Or, for that matter, if what you want is a light classical feel, the accompanist can greatly enhance that. Or maybe you want a jazz feel, or a country/western feel . . . |
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Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music From: The Sandman Date: 01 Oct 12 - 09:26 AM JACKS WORDS.
I wouldn't make the same argument for Scottish session tunes, which often come out of the danceband tradition where the harmonic and rhythmic backing may be conceived as a unit with the tune. Steve, stop wasting everyones time.
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 05:53 PM Dick has started this thread as a way of importing an argument that started in TheSession. It got fairly acrimonious, which is why Jeremy has deleted it. It's yet another occasion when Dick is importing a grudge from aomewhere else and hoping somebody will agree with a position he got trounced for advocating over there. What Dick is objecting to is a point made at length by Michael Gill there, that in an Irish session, no amount of ingenuity in an accompaniment can do anything to improve the performance of a melody. It may have other desirable effects on the performance as a whole, but how well the melody comes across is solely the result of what the melody players put into it. Which seems to me to be pretty much right for most Irish session music. If there are exceptions, I don't recall Dick providing them. I wouldn't make the same argument for Scottish session tunes, which often come out of the danceband tradition where the harmonic and rhythmic backing may be conceived as a unit with the tune. michael gills postThis is a clear case of something I've mentioned before. Guitar players are, without exception, more interested in the guitar itself than with music. "I'm desperately looking for some guidance in making the transition into being a session guitarist" "I want to be a functioning (and later bloody decent)session player and having watched some folk guitarists in sessions, I have no doubt that my fingers are mechanically capable of doing what they have to do" "Which chord shapes should one start with?" Guitar guitar guitar guitar guitar. "It's exactly that type of strumming-DADGAD-chords-dancing-around-the fretboard that I'm aiming for" Guitar guitar guitar guitar guitar. Not once has he mentioned the tunes. Not once. Oh no ... hang on ... he did mention the tunes once: "Luckily for guitarists, the rules of the session I attend are clear and melody-purists are in the minority." Say it all. Skreech, you will understand it when you realise that guitarists are really just percussionistsYes. the tunes don't "have" chords. Sure, you can play chords with them, but the distinction between the two is absolutely vital. Yes, some tunes have runs in them that are common chord triads, but to make the extension of suggesting that "the" chord that is that triad is, therefor, "the" chord for that bit of the tune is indeed a misunderstanding of the genre. # Posted on September 28th 2012 by Michael GillRe: DADGAD/session guitar advice urgently needed!!!!! Oddly Jim, for some reason, the "without exception" rule only applies to guitar players. However, there are players of other instruments who are more interested in their instrument than music itself ... as you yourself, of course, are well aware. # Posted on September 28th 2012 by Michael GillRe: DADGAD/session guitar advice urgently needed!!!!! " it is incorrect to harmonise it with anything else but a d major chord" I didn't expect you to understand. # Posted on September 29th 2012 by Michael GillRe: DADGAD/session guitar advice urgently needed!!!!! Al, I wasn't setting up a negative stereotype of accompanists. I was talking about guitar players. # Posted on September 29th 2012 by Michael GillRe: DADGAD/session guitar advice urgently needed!!!!! gingerbreadjuan, Are yo interested in playing this music, or playing the guitar? # Posted on October 1st 2012 by Michael Gill Re: DADGAD/session guitar advice urgently needed!!!!! gingerbreadjuan, Are yo interested in playing this music, or playing the guitar? # Posted on October 1st 2012 by Michael GillRe: DADGAD/session guitar advice urgently needed!!!!! Oddly Jim, for some reason, the "without exception" rule only applies to guitar players. However, there are players of other instruments who are more interested in their instrument than music itself ... as you yourself, of course, are well aware. # Posted on September 28th 2012 by Michael GillRe: DADGAD/session guitar advice urgently needed!!!!! Yes. the tunes don't "have" chords. Sure, you can play chords with them, but the distinction between the two is absolutely vital. Yes, some tunes have runs in them that are common chord triads, but to make the extension of suggesting that "the" chord that is that triad is, therefor, "the" chord for that bit of the tune is indeed a misunderstanding of the genre. # Posted on September 28th 2012 by Michael GillRe: DADGAD/session guitar advice urgently needed!!!!! Segovia was one of the worst offenders. I remember when I was a kid liking a popular little tune he played on one of my dad's records, a tune simply called Tango, by Albéniz. I always thought it was a guitar tune. But then one day I heard it on the piano. Wow. # Posted on September 28th 2012 by Michael Gill every single one of Michaels posts, not once has he said what Jack claims he was saying. Furthermore INEVER BROUGHT HIM INTO THE DISCUSSION, jaack campin, did that and apart from being wrong about the thread being deleted and my motives for wishing to discuss this on this forum, he claims Michael said something which in fact he never said, |
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