BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: number 6
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:28 PM

Sorry Dave ... Yes, there are 2 sides to an argument and I'm all for a good debate in regards to issues ... my reference was to Don Firth's comment above my thread ... I find continual ridiculing, or attacking someone because they are passionate about a cause somewhat disturbing.

I hope I clarified your concern

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:23 PM

I'll PM you, Spaw...

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:10 PM

... and then there is the person who continuously and continuously argues/attacks the person is passionate about a given cause.

Apologies if have got this wrong Bill but that sounds like you are saying it is wrong to argue with or attack someone who is passionate about a given cause?

I am sure Hitler was passionate about what was happening to Germany in the 1930s. Maybe someone should have attacked him? Joseph Stalin was a very charismatic orator. Do we accept all that he did because he was good with words?

I will argue with anyone with whom I disagree. I do not expect my arguments to be heeded by that person but they are just as valid. I will point out that there is often an alternative to berating and bullying people to support causes. That often people are just too busy with their own issues to take on those of others. That those who disagree with either the cause or they way support is being handled are entitled to their opinions too.

By giving those alternate views, maybe, just maybe, some Mudcat readers will realise that there are two sides to most arguments? We can but hope :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: number 6
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:54 PM

... and then there is the person who continuously and continuously argues/attacks the person is passionate about a given cause.

biLL ;)

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:30 PM

In The True Believer, Eric Hoffer, the longshoreman philosopher, points out that the person who most passionately adopts a cause does so to fill an emptiness within their own life. Any criticism, questioning, or reluctance to join in their particular passionate cause, they take as a personal affront.

Hoffer also points out that The True Believer, the Fanatic, is actually easily converted from one cause to another. Given the right circumstances or motivation, the fanatical Fascist will become a fanatical Communist. Then a fanatical Christian. But—no matter what cause or belief system they embrace and proselytize loudly to others, they will always be a Fanatic.

It is this emptiness within their own psyche, demanding to be filled, that makes them a fanatical adherent to a Cause.

Any Cause.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:12 PM

You really do take the biscuit, Liz. From your post further up this thread -

Please, by all means, do POST these lies and misinformation of which you speak, Dave....

Then from further still up the thread.

I'm helping to arrange the visits...dimwit...many of the pages are all linked up 'behind the scenes' sharing info, sharing posters, sharing ideas and phone calls and emails....Double Dimwit!!

Misinformation. I think I can conclusively say I am not a dimwit of the single or double variety.

Now, why don't you go back to your 'Let's see how I can make Lizzie look EVEN smaller than I already think I've got people to view her as!' room, and practice with The Turnip....

Absolute outright lie. I have no such campaign and I have no idea what I should be doing with a turnip. Could you please explain.

Continuing your smear tactics -

I could, had I wanted to, have brought out the fact that you, at the very start of that thread on Savile were distraught with unhappiness that such a 'wonderful' man had died.

I really, really wish you would, Liz. If you can find anything like what you report in my post to that thread please post it here. What I actually said, and it is not difficult to look up, was

"Listening to Tony Blackbutrn on Pick of the Pops earlier today and realising what a huge difference DJs made to my generation. JS was one of the best and most influential."

How on earth could you consider I thought thought he was a wonderful man and was distraught with unhappiness when I just considered him to be one of the best and most influential DJs of my generation? I consider Adolph Hitler was one of the most influential leaders of the 20th century. Would you say I thought he was a wonderful man?

Lies and misinformation. Smear tactics, Bullying at it's worse simply because I disagree with you.

Last easily addressable post. You say

in the recent thread about Saville you chose to put a link in to a thread about rape. It had *nothing* to do with the thread in hand. ALL you wanted to do was try to get people to see me, yet again, in a bad light, by trying to infer that I said rape victims bring their crimes on themselves.

I brought up the link to show that you once posted that girls who wear skimpy clothes and throw themselves at men have to take some blame when those men react in a sexual manner. You make that blatantly clear in the thread concerned. In the 60s and 70s girls wore skimpy clothes and threw themselves at people like Saville. I disagreed with you at the time. Still do. Your hypocrisy in then saying that these girls were the innocent victims is quite breathtaking. There was no other reason behind my post. Other than in your own imagination. Once again I disagree with you so I must be put down with lies, misinformation and scorn. And BTW - Why bring up the thread about Saville if you are so against bringing things from other threads?

Finally, just on this bit I am sure, you say -

I have nothing further to say to you.

I am pretty sure this is yet another lie as you have often said it before and continued your relentless tirade unashamedly in the same post. I would be more than happy for you to prove me wrong by simply allowing me my opinion. Even when it does not conform with yours.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 01:31 PM

Worn out on autism huh? Moved to Native AMericans now.......Maybe you could combine the two.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:58 PM

Oh, feck off..there's a dear...





Someone has very kindly just put this on my FB page, so I thought I'd share it here:


IROQUOIS THANKSGIVING ADDRESS
Ohenton Kariwahtekwen

The People

Today we have gathered and we see that the cycles of life continue. We have been given the duty to live in balance and harmony with each other and all living things. So now, we bring our minds together as one as we give greetings and thanks to each other as people.

Now our minds are one.

The Earth Mother

We are all thankful to our Mother, the Earth, for she gives us all that we need for life. She supports our feet as we walk about upon her. It gives us joy that she continues to care for us as she has from the beginning of time. To our mother, we send greetings and thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Waters

We give thanks to all the waters of the world for quenching our thirst and providing us with strength. Water is life. We know its power in many forms-waterfalls and rain, mists and streams, rivers and oceans. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to the spirit of Water.

Now our minds are one.

The Fish

We turn our minds to the all the Fish life in the water. They were instructed to cleanse and purify the water. They also give themselves to us as food. We are grateful that we can still find pure water. So, we turn now to the Fish and send our greetings and thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Plants

Now we turn toward the vast fields of Plant life. As far as the eye can see, the Plants grow, working many wonders. They sustain many life forms. With our minds gathered together, we give thanks and look forward to seeing Plant life for many generations to come.

Now our minds are one.

The Food Plants

With one mind, we turn to honor and thank all the Food Plants we harvest from the garden. Since the beginning of time, the grains, vegetables, beans and berries have helped the people survive. Many other living things draw strength from them too. We gather all the Plant Foods together as one and send them a greeting of thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Medicine Herbs

Now we turn to all the Medicine herbs of the world. From the beginning they were instructed to take away sickness. They are always waiting and ready to heal us. We are happy there are still among us those special few who remember how to use these plants for healing. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to the Medicines and to the keepers of the Medicines.

Now our minds are one.

The Animals

We gather our minds together to send greetings and thanks to all the Animal life in the world. They have many things to teach us as people. We are honored by them when they give up their lives so we may use their bodies as food for our people. We see them near our homes and in the deep forests. We are glad they are still here and we hope that it will always be so.

Now our minds are one

The Trees

We now turn our thoughts to the Trees. The Earth has many families of Trees who have their own instructions and uses. Some provide us with shelter and shade, others with fruit, beauty and other useful things. Many people of the world use a Tree as a symbol of peace and strength. With one mind, we greet and thank the Tree life.

Now our minds are one.

The Birds

We put our minds together as one and thank all the Birds who move and fly about over our heads. The Creator gave them beautiful songs. Each day they remind us to enjoy and appreciate life. The Eagle was chosen to be their leader. To all the Birds-from the smallest to the largest-we send our joyful greetings and thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Four Winds

We are all thankful to the powers we know as the Four Winds. We hear their voices in the moving air as they refresh us and purify the air we breathe. They help us to bring the change of seasons. From the four directions they come, bringing us messages and giving us strength. With one mind, we send our greetings and thanks to the Four Winds.

Now our minds are one.

The Thunderers

Now we turn to the west where our grandfathers, the Thunder Beings, live. With lightning and thundering voices, they bring with them the water that renews life. We are thankful that they keep those evil things made by Okwiseres underground. We bring our minds together as one to send greetings and thanks to our Grandfathers, the Thunderers.

Now our minds are one.

The Sun

We now send greetings and thanks to our eldest Brother, the Sun. Each day without fail he travels the sky from east to west, bringing the light of a new day. He is the source of all the fires of life. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to our Brother, the Sun.

Now our minds are one.

Grandmother Moon

We put our minds together to give thanks to our oldest Grandmother, the Moon, who lights the nighttime sky. She is the leader of woman all over the world, and she governs the movement of the ocean tides. By her changing face we measure time, and it is the Moon who watches over the arrival of children here on Earth. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to our Grandmother, the Moon.

Now our minds are one.

The Stars

We give thanks to the Stars who are spread across the sky like jewelry. We see them in the night, helping the Moon to light the darkness and bringing dew to the gardens and growing things. When we travel at night, they guide us home. With our minds gathered together as one, we send greetings and thanks to the Stars.

Now our minds are one.

The Enlightened Teachers

We gather our minds to greet and thank the enlightened Teachers who have come to help throughout the ages. When we forget how to live in harmony, they remind us of the way we were instructed to live as people. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to these caring teachers.

Now our minds are one.

The Creator

Now we turn our thoughts to the creator, or Great Spirit, and send greetings and thanks for all the gifts of Creation. Everything we need to live a good life is here on this Mother Earth. For all the love that is still around us, we gather our minds together as one and send our choicest words of greetings and thanks to the Creator.

Now our minds are one.

Closing Words

We have now arrived at the place where we end our words. Of all the things we have named, it was not our intention to leave anything out. If something was forgotten, we leave it to each individual to send such greetings and thanks in their own way.

Now our minds are one.

Attitude of Gratitude Moment: Having Elders who share their wisdom and guidance with me freely that I may see with illuminated eyes. Thank you to Mama Donna for sharing with me.

Artist Maxine Noel

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:49 PM

All Hail The Incomperable Liz, Wasichu Wonder Woman Of The West! Bow down, ye worms, and worship Her Magnificense. Nec pluribus impar!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:23 PM

Lovely prayer, bobad...

Bill, Malcom's ex-partner, Vivienne Westwood took up Malcolm's words and now does all she can to help get Leonard freed. She has made many fashion items with 'Free Leonard Peltier' on them, introducing his story to her famous friends. She and Leonard write to each other as well, and you will find her letters on her blog, here:

Keep presssing 'older blogs' - righthand side of page at the bottom
Get A Life - Vivienne Westwood's blog

Vogue article on Malcolm's words for Leonard

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:17 PM

You do not have my permission to call me Liz, but undoubtedly, you still will. That is your decision and it is done against my wishes, which is your decision also. That alone says everything about you.

With regard to your 'open letter' to me, perhaps you would like to explain why you constantly try to lower the opinion of me in every way possible. For instance, in the recent thread about Saville you chose to put a link in to a thread about rape. It had *nothing* to do with the thread in hand. ALL you wanted to do was try to get people to see me, yet again, in a bad light, by trying to infer that I said rape victims bring their crimes on themselves.

I could, had I wanted to, have brought out the fact that you, at the very start of that thread on Savile were distraught with unhappiness that such a 'wonderful' man had died. I wasn't distraught, I was glad. I had always felt the man was grimy and dirty and as a young woman, young girl, the very sight of him made my skin crawl.

I have nothing further to say to you.

Jeri, you have always thought me to be a troll. I am anything but. You have ALWAYS had me wrong. I have kept quiet because of your friendship with someone else, but quite frankly, your rudeness about me pisses me off bigtime. I have very strong opinions, to which I am entitled, as you are to yours. I did NOT start this thread, as I have stated many times. I have NOT come in here as a Guest, throwing insults around under another name.

As a mod, you should, surely, be checking who these 'guests' are, then naming them. There are TWO mods in this thread, as far as I'm aware, yet both of them, whilst hurling insults at me, let these phantom guests remain, un-named.

You think what you want of me, I really don't give a feck to be honest, for I am inured to your rudeness about me, but do not tell others I am a troll, for I am not.

If what I say pisses others off, then good. At least I am putting the other side of Thanksgiving and the Native American story forward....

The amount of links I've put in here all prove what I've said to be true.   I take a long time to find these links, to read them, watch them, connect all the dots etc...Couple this with the many Native Americans who've written to me over time and the story I see unfolding is one of continued White Man's Rage, but this time, it is borne of Guilt and a feeling of Deep Unease.

It is far easier to pretend The Genocide never happened, to remain talking ONLY of the Jewish Holocaust and not the Native American one, for that way lies ease and no guilt at all, even whilst people such as Dennis Banks, who has fought his whole life long for justice for his people, STILL are going through hell because of what was done to him so long ago, for not only did they take his parents from him, abuse him, put him through hell, alongside so many others who also went through it, but they made him almost hate his mother, his Mum who loved him so dearly...bu denying him all those letters she'd written to him so long ago....I cannot even begin to imagine his heartbreak when he opened up that shoe box and saw what he did.......

I rant and rage for the people such as Floyd Red Crow Westerman, who as a child was made to kneel on marbles and broom handles, by those who did what they did in the name of their God!

What happened here is SO evil that it beggars belief...and far from being an Ostrich, preferring to hide my head away from all the carnage, the genocide and the utter cruelty, done by your people and MY People, I choose to stand and face it HEAD ON! I choose to stare The Truth right slap bang in the bloody face and take it on the chin, for I stand right beside Marlon Brando who had the guts to speak the truth and for that he was hated for many years by those who were the perpetrators of this shocking myth, which they invented for their own sick agendas.

You have my full permission to call me a pain in the arse, but you can stick your Troll Accusations wherever you so chooose, for I am heartily sick of them.

Thank you

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Janie
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:05 PM

This thread is a hoot!

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: bobad
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:52 AM

Prayer for the Great Family

Gratitude to Mother Earth,
sailing through night and day—
and to her soil: rich, rare and sweet
in our minds so be it.

Gratitude to Plants,
the sun-facing, light-changing leaf
and fine root-hairs;
standing still through wind and rain; their dance is in the flowering spiral grain
in our minds so be it.

Gratitude to Air,
bearing the soaring Swift and silent
Owl at dawn. Breath of our song
clear spirit breeze
in our minds so be it.

Gratitude to Wild Beings,
our brothers, teaching secrets,
freedoms, and ways; who share with us their milk;
self-complete, brave and aware
in our minds so be it.

Gratitude to Water:
clouds, lakes, rivers, glaciers;
holding or releasing;
streaming through all our bodies salty seas
in our minds so be it.

Gratitude to the Sun:
blinding pulsing light through trunks of trees, through mists,
warming caves where bears and snakes sleep— he who wakes us—
in our minds so be it.

Gratitude to the Great Sky
who holds billions of stars—
and goes yet beyond that—
beyond all powers, and thoughts
and yet is within us—
Grandfather Space.
The Mind is his Wife.
so be it.


after a Mohawk prayer

Gary Snyder, Turtle Island
New Directions, New York, 1974, pp. 24-25

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: number 6
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:33 AM

" Leonard Peltier"

here's a bit of trivia you can share with those sitting at your table breaking bread with you this Thanksgiving.

apparently Malcom McLaren's last words were said to be "Free Leonard Peltier".

now

If you don't know who Malcom McLaren is, forget all about it

regardless ... to all the Yankee (and rebel) madcatters here I wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving and I hope you score well on your Black Friday shopping excursions !

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:27 AM

+5 from me!!
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:14 AM

Please, by all means, do POST these lies and misinformation of which you speak, Dave....

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Megan L
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 10:37 AM

This thread reminds me of the school playground one person starts an argument and others join in till it does not matter what anyone says the fight is more important.

You can bang someone's head against the wall in hopes of knocking YOUR truth into them. All you really do is give them concussion.

The more someone tells me what I should think or do the more likely I am not to listen to them. My mum used to say "If you have to say the same thing more than once they wont listen any better the second time."

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: John P
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 09:46 AM

I always figured Thanksgiving was our version of the post-harvest feast, like Christmas is our version of the mid-winter feast. I believe lots of societies have had traditions of a post-harvest feast. Did the Native Americans have a post-harvest feast?

I also think that different events mean different things to different people. Most people I know see Thanksgiving as a time of, well, giving thanks. These same people are aware of and care deeply about downtrodden people, but are intelligent enough to know that they aren't responsible for the atrocious things that were done to Native Americans, and that giving thanks for a day doesn't have anything to do -- for them -- with killing or dispossessing anyone.

Lizzie, please pay attention to those who tell you that many people who care deeply about the same issues you care about won't talk about it in your presence. If you stay true to form, you are now going to tell me that I don't care about the plight of Native Americans. You'd be wrong, but I can't prove that to you. The fact is that I don't want to be associated with you. I think you do more harm to the cause than good and I don't want anyone thinking I'm anything like you at all. And yet I still care deeply about oppressed people everywhere. Go figure.

If you really want to help the causes you espouse, learn to get along with others. Learn that not everyone approaches these issues in the same way that you do. Learn that people can disagree with you strongly while still believing in the same things you believe in. Instead of getting angry at and insulting lots of people whose politics and awareness on this subject you don't know, try finding the individuals who are actually harming others and work on them. There are certainly enough bigots that make themselves obvious, even here on Mudcat, that a more well-directed approach is fairly easy and doesn't have the disadvantage of turning those who agree with your basic message against you.

You spend so much time being angry about bigotry that you don't seem to notice that you exhibit extreme bigotry toward everyone who doesn't immediately agree with your sensibilities and tactics. When you clump a bunch of strangers together and made assumptions about their mental or emotional state, the reasons for their actions, and whether or not they are good people, you are displaying the exact definition of bigotry. Please stop, or at least please stop doing it on Mudcat where I have to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 09:39 AM

You make me sick.
=(:-( P)

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 09:33 AM

So Liz, where's your web page and crusade to get the Irish back the land the English stole from them over the centuries & decrying their treatment of the indigenous population of the Emerald Isle?

I can't stick around here today, have to go find a few Injuns to kill. Nothin' like killin Injuns to work up an appetite for a big feed later on.

Happy Thanxgiving, Y'all!

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 08:56 AM

All excellent points, Jeri, but I feel enough is enough and there are times when standing up to lies and misinformation is more important that not stroking the trolls ego.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 08:40 AM

At some point, maybe you should stand back and look at the results she gets and figure that if she uses the same tactics again and again, those ARE the results she wants. Pissing people off and getting attention. This "pontificating from afar" stuff doesn't ever change anything for the better, especially not when she's talking
AT people who've been involved far longer, and for whom the holiday is about something smaller and more real than history. And let us not forget the IDEAL of Thanksgiving, because the peace and brotherhood lasted for three days before the pilgrims started the slaughter.

These are not activists and not likely to be posting a lot on the internet, but there are individuals and families from various Indian nations throughout the US who see the day as a harvest festival or a time to gather with family and friends. But if one is on the "holier-than-thou" plane of enlightenment, one probably is OK for attempting to make THEM feel insignificant too.

The original Thanksgiving was good.
What happened after it was bad.
No matter what we do now, we're never going to change what happened.
♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦

For the record, I'm not responding to trolls, who:

1. Piss people off, and continue to provoke until the troll:
2. Gets the desired response from those who react.
3. Claims abuse, "they're picking on me", "WAAAAAAH", and then...
4. Posts something out of place and personal, having to do with "Oh poor me".

It's S&M lite.
And it's never about the pretended subject.
But there are some who always like having their chains jerked...

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 08:38 AM

I'm proud of you Lizzie. Stand your ground.
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 08:35 AM

Open letter to Lizzie Cornish

I have no 'shitty campaign' to get others to hate you. Either stop suggesting I have or find some proof. I disagree with you on many points and will say so at any opportunity. That constitutes neither bullying or stalking. That is disagreement. You, on the other hand, seem to want to attack my genuine disagreements with smear tactics, name calling and abusive language.

I am neither a dimwit nor a double dimwit. I don't profess to be a genius but I do hold a responsible job which entails a considerable amount of intelligence; I have been happily married for nearly 40 years; I have brought up 5 children, four of which graduated university and all of which are caring human beings. I don't think any of these things are within the reach of a dimwit.

If you are genuinely assisting to arrange REAL WORLD meetings then that is all we are suggesting. You should be proud of yourself in having done so. It is far better than any amount of ranting and raving here or over on Fakebook. Why don't you just get on with it like everyone else though? I know hiding lights under bushels is silly but shouting how good you are from the rooftops is counter-productive. A line or two saying that you have and will continue to help real people would be enough. A page such as above is just bragging.

I have never resorted to poking fun at any of the countless disabilities that plague your family. You, on the other hand, have openly laughed at my wife's hearing difficulties and have suggested that I have lied about difficulties that my children have encountered.

I may have sworn at you occasionally. Purely because you seem to consider it the norm and have used abusive language to me. If that has ever offended you I apologise and, provided you no longer swear at me, I will no longer retaliate.

I have and will continue to call you Liz. Sorry, but there it is. If you say 'don't do something' to me I will do it. Call it childish if you like because it probably is but I am childish and will continue to be so till the day I die. Children get so much more out of life don't you think :-)

As to the comment about the turnip, I have no idea what you are on about. I think you have me confused with someone else.

I am sure our disagreements will continue and, to be honest, they should. If everyone agreed about everything what a boring world we would live in. In conclusion, all I ask is that you let me disagree with you without resorting to abuse, smear tactics, shouting 'bully' or screaming 'stalker'.

As ever I will rely on the facts to speak for themselves and if anyone would care to have any details to prove or underline any of my points I will happily oblige. It is up to all here to decide which version of events to believe.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 08:28 AM

And...I think rather than close this thread down, that the Mudcat Mods, of whom Maggie is one, should NAME the bogus 'guests' on this thread, for as far as I know, people are no longer permitted to post as guests unless those who run Mudcat are aware of who they are...

That should prove exciting for this day..and if the Mods choose to close it down entirely, please remember that *I* did NOT start this thread, but one of them moved a post of mine to here, giving the thread their title etc...

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 08:25 AM

Dennis, talking about how he waited for over 70 years before discovering that his mother *hadn't* abandoned him when he was taken to the Boarding Schools, but had written letter after letter to him, even saving up $5 which she sent to the school to ask them to send her son home....He grew up thinking she didn't care..and his bond with her was broken apart, just as those who ran these hellish places wanted to happen. His daugther found his school records, and a shoe box too, filled with all the letters his mother wrote, but which they never gave to him.....

Bastards!!

Dennis Banks - on Democracy Now (starts at around 43 minutes in)

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,Another carer
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 08:11 AM

Apologies ... Predictive text error: name should have read Another Carer ... NOT career.

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,Another career
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 08:09 AM

I think it might be a kind gesture if Mudcat mods closed down this thread, in the interests of the mental health of carer Ms Cornish whose blood pressure appears to be heading through the roof and whose mental health is evidently unstable.

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 06:44 AM

I'm helping to arrange the visits...dimwit...many of the pages are all linked up 'behind the scenes' sharing info, sharing posters, sharing ideas and phone calls and emails....Double Dimwit!!

Now, why don't you go back to your 'Let's see how I can make Lizzie look EVEN smaller than I already think I've got people to view her as!' room, and practice with The Turnip....

Thank you!


Oh...and with regard to this:

>>>"When was the last time you were down at your local shelter for the homeless cleaning shit from the toilets? In your own time?"<<<

EVERY SINGLE DAY I start my day by cleaning Shit off my own toilet, put there by my 98 ex-mother-in-law and her gippy tummy! This often goes on throughout the day! ONE day she even managed to not reach the loo in time, depositing her upset tummy all over the floor, the bath, the walls, the door etc...And guess who scrubbed it all down with dettol,whilst trying to wrench, who made her a cup of tea after, who disinfected everything she could lay her hands on that day?????


>>>"When did you last take a pregnant young stranger who had been thrown out by her parents into your own home, feed her and look after her until she got more permanent care? Only to find she had then stolen 2 very valuable books yet forgive her for it because of the issues she had?:<<

Oh, now, let me see...there was the time a young woman came to the house to do Vi's hair for her. She was the assistant to the young hairdresser. They were friends and the hairdresser had just taken on her friend to help her. The first thing this young woman did was take out photos of her children to show me...then,whilst the hairdresser was getting Vi ready for her perm in the other room, she told me all about her kids, how much she loved them, how dear they were to her.

Roll on about an hour..when a phone call came through for her. She took it, then rushed outside. 10 minutes later I heard, through closed windows, the sounds of an animal howling in grief.

I know that sound. I've made it myself. I know what it means.

I rushed outside,to find her doubled up on the pavement, phone in hand, incoherent through her tears. I took the phone,to find I was talking to her social worker (spit!)...It turned out she was due to see her children later that morning, they'd been taken from her because she was considered unfit, due to a bastard of a man, who was their father. Someone in the Social Worker Dept got their times muddled and she'd been told she'd MISSED being with her children, as it was an hour earlier. She had it written in her diary as the time she'd told me it was. This man was a bastard, refusing to bend the rules, refusing to let her see her children until the next appointment, the following week. Her children were 4 and 2 and she was pregnant again...

I went ballistic! I wiped the floor with them all...then I went with her to see another Social Worker in town, a real bully of a bitch of a woman, probably very similar to the kind of bitches who ran The Native American Boarding Schools....

She was so patronizing to this young woman, a young girl who was intelligent and articulate, but who struggled with emotions. The social worker was intent on getting her older child adopted and she wanted this done before the child's 5th birthday, because, 'after 5 it becomes much harder to place them' (!!!!????!!!!)

When she'd finished talking to her I spoke.

"Tell me, what has this department actually DONE to keep this mother with her children? She has told you she has given up this man, that he now lives far, far away. She goes to all the appointments you want her to, she is BEGGING to be sent on parent courses, begging to be sent on anything, anywhere, purely so she can keep her children! What RIGHT do you have to sit there and tell her she should give her child up for adoption ASAP...and that you will take her unborn child away from her when it's born??!"

She looked at me with hatred!
I returned her gaze, ten-fold!!

Then, I went with the young woman to her solicitor's appointment, for they were taking her to court soon to try to get the oldest child adopted. I told the solicitor what had happened..and more...and I also told her that I felt Jackie may well be on the Asperger Circle. She was very honest, told me she had times when she couldn't cope. Her own mother was cruel to her and she'd fought to bring herself up, really...It was the usual story of someone being left out of the loop, then having The Loop throw everything at her in later life....

Last I heard the solicitor was arranging to get Jackie and her children into a special home in London where she and they would be watched over and cared for for 2 years. During this time she would have to do *everything* she was told, jump when they said jump etc, in order to keep her children..and if, at the end of this time, they decided she could do it alone, then she would get to keep all three of her children. She cried when her solicitor told her this, saying she would do whatever it took to keep them...


>>>"When did you last give up a few days pay so you could help a young couple with mental health problems decorate their house before their baby was born and then try to console them when social services decided they could not look after her?"<<<

See above and please also note that I am a Carer, 24/7, living on a VERY low income, looking after my ex-mother-in-law, my son, my animals and trying to deal with an ex-husband who didn't want to even pay me the paltry amount for his son, who has been a total bastard to me these past years...but I would and will help anyone, at anytime, if the need is great, for I have lived in Shitsville for a very long time, so I know exactly how it feels to be there...

And now, as I said above, go back to your Shitty Campaign of trying to get others to hate me. If they do, they do. No worries to me. Those who know me like me and stand by me, those who want to hate me can go fly, for life is too short and growing shorter with each passing day....

Thank you

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 06:42 AM

The Gnome Knows......Pay Heed the Gnome.

Obama did a good job on the web and FB and TV.....Romney did a good job too. Obama won with boots on the ground. Boots on the ground win every time.   




Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:58 AM

Oh..and Chief Raoni is, hopefully, coming to Europe shortly....I'll let you know more when I've heard back from those in France who are trying to arrange it....

And thereby hangs the whole point of some of the criticisms, Liz. There are those who actual DO something, like arrange visits and there are those who post about what should be done on meaningless web sites. What people are saying is that no amount of ranting and raving on Facebook, Mudcat or any other web site is worth a fraction of arranging visits from real live people and giving up time to actually help in practical ways.

When was the last time you were down at your local shelter for the homeless cleaning shit from the toilets? In your own time? When did you last take a pregnant young stranger who had been thrown out by her parents into your own home, feed her and look after her until she got more permanent care? Only to find she had then stolen 2 very valuable books yet forgive her for it because of the issues she had? When did you last give up a few days pay so you could help a young couple with mental health problems decorate their house before their baby was born and then try to console them when social services decided they could not look after her?

There are plenty of things that you can be doing quietly and without the praise and adulation that you seem to seek that would make a MUCH bigger difference than screaming about the rights of a peoples who are, in the end, no different from everyone else who has been disinherited.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,Paddy McBollox
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:37 AM

For anyone who thinks that 25000 facebook likes equals a political movement or a group of people spurred into real action or anything at all in fact, I found this page that has 1.2 million likes. Iguess their cause must be really REALLY important. the politics of mouseclicks

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:33 AM

Since when were only people from a certain country allowed to talk about those within their country?

Considering I 'don't know what I'm talking about' Maggie, I've had one helluva lot of Native American people ***thanking*** me for speaking out about them, for telling their story.

I am free to do whatever I want..and the thing that has always upset me about Mudcat is that it has a great many people in it who want to control others, who tell them what they can or can't do, how they should or should not write, or what they should or should not write about.

I do NOT do this to others. I may flamingly well disagree with some of the bullshit that comes my way, but I have never told anyone how to write, or to 'go back to their own country and help people there'

As I said before, IF folks from America were up in arms, EN MASSE, about the way your government, still, to this day, treats the Indigenous People, then I wouldn't be having to piss you off at all, would I?

But you know what? The Great American saying seems to be 'Get Over It, Native America!'

Well, now the Native Americans are coming together to fight for their rights..and it's scaring the shite out of some folks..

So, YOU do something about the Indigenous People of the land you now call home, Maggie, for whilst I fully appreciate that it was the ancestors and not-so-long-ago-relatives of those who now dwell in America and Canada who did some highly unpleasant things..and that many of those folks came from England and from Europe too, what I do NOT see is The Healing Taking Place.

What I do NOT see is Modern America holding out its' arms to the very people, who, even to this day, remain so deeply damaged by what happened, what is still happening, and who have very little confidence in themselves, very little hope, in many instances...and who are still being left to just get on with it whilst The Treaties remain under a pile of White Man Corporate Shite, undisturbed, unspoken of by 'one side' whilst the other side is crying out to have those Treaties honoured.

Wake Up, America!

And all those who throw insults at me in here, shove 'em up your backsides, because I *know* what some of these kind and wonderful people are saying and that EVERY kind word someone says about them helps, even if it helps only a fraction...it still HELPS, and it means more if those words come from other parts of the world, for they know then that their message IS getting out and that it's reaching far and wide!

And I suggest, Maggie, that you read Marlon and Leonard's words, above, then write them on the walls of your house, so that YOU will be encouraged to do far more than tell other people to shut the fuck up, albeit in a far more polite way than my terminology.

Have a good day...

And I'm sure that some of the Lakota, who still worship Christianity to this day (such is the terrible damage and fear wrought by the Missionaries way back) will be thanking the Christian God for their Life of Struggle and their family....whilst others will be out there under the Skies, thanking The Great Mystery, The Creator, for all that is around them, whilst also having a feeling of Desperate Sadness for their Ancestors and the terrible pain and torment they went through at the hands of such 'Christian' People.....

mg, do you know about the Choctaw and the Irish? Of how they helped the Irish during that time, gathering what money they had together to send to them, for The Trail of Tears was still fresh in their memory so they knew what it was like to be starving. Did you know that the Irish Prime Minister went over years back to thank them personally for what they did? And that every year some of the Choctaw visit Ireland to be welcomed again by the Irish with whom they have never lost touch.....

Russell Means, meanwhile, will probably be watching over his People, Marlon at his side, and the two of them saying to one another "Time we got this Shit sorted out for good!"

Oh...and spare a thought for all the Lakota who will be having 'just another day' drinking themselves into oblivion on alcohol sold to them by the four stores in White Clay, who are, quite literally, getting genocide to happen, yet again, whilst becoming filthy rich on the hearts and souls of yet *more* Native Americans..

And now, considering I don't know the first thing about what I'm talking about, apparently, I'm going to go off and do other things about which I also, apparently, know nothing about, elsewhere.....

Oh..and Chief Raoni is, hopefully, coming to Europe shortly....I'll let you know more when I've heard back from those in France who are trying to arrange it....

Happy Thanksgiving..

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:53 AM

DAY OF MOURNING STATEMENT from Leonard Peltier: 2012

Greeting my relatives, friends, and supporters,

It is with great honor that I get a chance to speak with you even though it's a written message that someone has to read.

I'm saddened that we have to call this a Day of Mourning, but we must take every opportunity to remind this nation when it comes to keeping their word about treaties, about human rights, about the environment, about excess pollution - that it has failed miserably on all of those concerns. Also want to remind the major religions that speak about peace and love and brotherhood and are celebrating this thing called Thanksgiving, that we the native people of this land realistically overall have nothing to truly be thankful about regarding the arrival of the pilgrims.

And I would also like to remind the major various religions of this country that in all their teachings it says you reap what you sow. And if that is a true statement, if that is the law given by the Creator, then you have to only look around at the news of the day to see that that statement is coming to pass. This country is not keeping its solemn word under god that it gave regarding our treaties. And they don't keep their own Scriptures that say not to bear false witness or lie. They've tried to keep us from honoring our fathers by destroying our culture. They violated their word where it says "thou shalt not kill", violated every one of their commandments regarding our people in this land. And they will truly reap what they sow.

I also want to say that in the spirit of compassion and reason, and fairness, and forgiveness, that its never too late to turn things around. Actually I should say that's not quite correct, it can be too late. There's an old Cheyenne saying that a nation is never destroyed until the hearts of its women are on the ground. And if you look around you will see the decline of America. And it is entirely possible that that teaching is not far off. One thing as a people that we do have to be thankful for and thankful to the Creator only, we are still alive we are still a people. And we still know who we are, we still have a commitment to the Creator to protect this land, we still have a commitment to protect the laws of nature that were given unto us, to our ancestors. We are probably the only people on this continent that would be better off if this whole system fell apart. Because we possess the knowledge, the teaching and the culture to live in harmony with that which the Creator has given us.

I want to encourage all the young people, to always remember your health and the health of the earth are the most important things that you possess. And that self-discipline is the most important thing that you can learn. And taking responsibility for ourselves and our future is the most empowering thing that we can do. Right now you are listening to my words the words of a man in prison for 30 something years. A man who has had limited contact and yet I am able to speak to you now. And the reason I am saying this is because with all the freedom that you do possess you could do so much more. Educate yourself to our true history, educate yourself to what is really going on today, and educate yourself as to what needs to be done to make a better tomorrow for yourselves and your children's children, our future generations.

Again I want to say I am just an ordinary man caught up in extraordinary circumstances. There is nothing that I have done or said that you cannot do or say and much better because you possess more freedom than I do. We need each other. If I am ever to be free, I need you. And the truth is, none of us are truly free right now, because any people who is afraid of their government, is not free. We all need to be warriors of one. Each needs to know how to defend themselves on any level. And as I've said before we need to recapture the freedoms we've lost and protect the ones we still have.

In closing I want to encourage each and every one of you to stand up in your own way in whatever way you can for what's right, try to right what's wrong and know that in my heart and in whatever way I can help you, that I will be with you. We need each other, you need each other, and we need the help of all peoples to correct this great damage that is taking place throughout the earth. Our battle is not with a race a people or a color, our battle is with ignorance and greed that is ruling the governments of men today.

Again I want to thank you and in the spirit of crazy horse and all those beautiful people that have stood up for what's right in the past, and the ones standing up now. Stay strong and support one another,

Your Friend Always and in All Ways,

Leonard Peltier

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 02:19 AM

But we don't want to blow it this time...
blow it?

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: GUEST,Paddy McBollox
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 02:13 AM

Liz's championing of her pet natives is not a million miles from all those Plastic Paddy Irish Americans in the 80s who used to sing Danny Boy and Fields of Athenry and put money in collecting tins in pubs in New York and Boston, and send it to the IRA. Naive idiots romanticizing a conflict and a culture they could never really understand and that they had never experienced firsthand. But it made them feel important and it made their own dull lives seem more interesting and meaningful. Of course there were important causes right down their own streets they could have been throwing their time and energy into but that wouldn't have been nearly as much fun or made them feel quite so important. Romanticizing and sentimentalizing cultures that aren't your own and that you have no firsthand experience of is silly and sad at best, dangerous at worst.

But you won't tell that to the Great Goddess Liz. This is only the latest in her causes, which she champions like a religious zealot until she moves on to the next Really Important Thing That She Knows The TRUTH About. She will never acknowledge that her hectoring and abuse does her causes more harm than good, because she confuses shouting and mouse clicks with action. Her pet natives can at least rest safe knowing she'll eventually get bored and move onto the next thing that makes her Really Angry.

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 01:52 AM

Lizzie, you don't know what you're talking about, and like I said, no one is going to share their serious work towards any of this with you on such a crackpot thread. You're driving away any serious conversation on these topics without knowing a thing about the people you accuse of such dastardly deeds. Go work with the disenfranchised in your own country, let us work on ours. We're grownups here and aren't ignoring important issues. Your attitude will only repel the people you are trying to help. Seriously.
You could also do yourself some good by working on your own behalf. I speak of knocking down that fake Google+ page in your name that has all of the usual purloined photos. And the fake facebook page in your name. Those companies will only take them down if you report them, and those are the lynchpins in getting the entire fake network of troll sites taken down.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 01:22 AM

We should all have a cause like Lizzie's. One we feel very strongly about.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:39 AM

Very good.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: mg
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:36 AM

Also my ancestors displaced some Sioux people in NE Iowa. They came escaping the potato famine. So often tragedies lead to other tragedies in a domino effect.

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: mg
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:33 AM

I totally disagree, and of course I know who is going to be abusive, that we should stay out of troubles in other countries. Sometimes people within a situation don't see it..like fish don't see water..you grow up in apartheid or Jim Crow or a caste system and it seems normal to you. Or if you do see the problems, there are all sorts of pressures on you to go along with it. Should people have not spoken up about apartheid? About slavery? About Dalit people cleaning sewage with their bare hands? About genital mutilation? About the dowry system? Speaking up is how things get fixed, hopefully minimizing bloodshed and violence. And speaking up from afar, particularly in this day and age, can and should be done. It means they speak up against things we do and vise versa. And so the world gets better.

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:42 PM

Well said, sir!!

Take note, all. Spaw knows where his towel is!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 09:39 PM

And one more thing........My family wa just like many others in that while they knew little about the history or present day problems, what they, and I, do associate with this day is right in the name. We all took some time to be thankful for what we had and the world we knew. We were never rich in money but we put were rich in family and the love we had for each other.

I now have my own family and my "adopted" family but my biological family are all deceased. I am still thankful in every way that I had some time, albeit short, with all of them. By the time I was 24 I had only a few cousins that I rarely saw but I had the memories of all my parents and grandparents, aunts and uncles, that enriched my life. All these years later those memories overflow my heart and make me so thankful for what I had and what they gave me. I'm thankful to have been lucky enough to marry Karen who turned out to be my best friend. And I'm thankful for my 2 fine sons who have matured to manhood and continue to surprise me every day, each in their own way.

So take the causes and rewrites and what we owe and all that.....Do with it what you must or will, but understand that for a lot of us Thanksgiving is just that simple.....Giving Thanks.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 09:07 PM

Liz, its simply asmazing that you are able to stand being as absolutely wonderful as you are.

Roll up all & see Liz, The Penultimate Wonder Woman of All Time with 25,000 fake facebook "friends" to her name. I suspect that most porn sites have much higher viewer numbers by a factor of 10.

So Liz, other than 25,000 mouse-clicks, what concrete proof can you offer that you're doing anything at all other than maintaining a web page and talking to yourself, never mind doing anything of value for your pet Native Americans?

Concrete proof, now, not just a continuation of the river of bullshit in your earlier posts?

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:57 PM

For all the Native/First Americans........Consider this as well.

We live in a country which has been wrapped up in anything but history for the most part. While a few of us may appreciate the stupidity of "Thanksgiving," for the most part no one really knows a damn thing about "Pilgrims" or "Indians" and they really don't care. They look at this holiday as a food feast, a family get together, and not much else. White America is pretty shallow and they really don't know jackshit about Christmas either. Most have no real great desire to learn any of this and are happy to go blithely along stuffing monstrous quantities of food in their face several times a year.

That's okay though isn't it? Do you really think these dumbasses can contribute anything serious to your cause? Fuck 'em. Energize the people you can and ta' hell with the rest.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:36 PM

You're wrong, Lizzie, but there's no point in anybody trying to tell you anything.

With advocates like you, I fear for Native Americans!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:34 PM

300 joined since just last Saturday

I am 74 of them and the local branch of the BNP make up the rest. Just think about it.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:25 PM

Don...with politeness...feck off and get off my back...My page now has over 25,000 great people on it, 300 joined since just last Saturday...I KNOW what works, I KNOW how to reach people!

I may not do it the way YOU may want me to, but I damn well do it, and I will continue to do it too, no matter what anyone in here throws at me....

And here, from the AIM Grassroots page in FB, who've just shared the photo above from my Raoni page...



>>>>>A.I.M. Indiana and Kentucky Chapter statement on Thanksgiving 2012

As millions of Americans gather around the dinner table to give thanks for their many blessings, let us the indigenous people remind them what they are truly celebrating. They are celebrating and giving thanks to the so called "Pilgrims" bountiful harvest, which without the indigenous peoples of this land they would have never ha
d. They are giving thanks to god for protecting them from the "savages". The same "savages" who with open hearts showed them how to grow crops, who taught them how to survive the harsh winters. The same "savages" that they murdered, raped and infected with disease.
Many of you may be saying "But that was a long time ago!" well go tell that to the indigenous peoples of Mexico, Central and South America who are being forced off their lands. The indigenous women and men in Canada, who are being raped and brutalized by the police, tell that to the people of Pine Ridge South Dakota who survived the Reign of Terror and those who did not. Tell this to our brother Leonard Peltier, who to this day sits in a federal prison convicted of a crime he did not commit.
It is with that, that we the American Indian Movement Chapter of Indiana and Kentucky call upon our prospective governors and the President of this United States of America Barack Hussein Obama II to proclaim every third Thursday of November a National Day of Mourning for all indigenous peoples of the Americas."<<<<<<

Give THANKS that the Native Americans SURVIVED!
Have a lovely day tomorrow...

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:17 PM

One to share around on Facebook, for those who may so desire...Took me a while, but Marlon's words are absolutely true and should be shared around...

Happy Thanksgiving, from Russell and Marlon

Here they are, for those who are not on Facebook:

From Marlon Brando:

"I read a book called 'Indians of the Americas' and after reading the book I realized I knew *nothing* about the American Indian and that everything that we are taught about the American Indian is wr
ong, it's inaccurate and our school books are hopelessly lacking, perhaps *criminally* lacking in revealing what our relationship was with the Indian.

When we hear, as we've heard throughout all our lives, no matter how old we are, that we are a country that stands for freedom, for rightness, for justice, for everyone, it simply doesn't apply to those who are not white. It just simply doesn't apply, and we were the most rapacious, aggressive, destructive, torturing, monstruous people who swept from one coast to the other, murdering and causing mayhem among the Indians.....but...that isn't revealed 'cos we don't like that image of ourselves. We don't like to see us...we like to see ourselves as perhaps John Wayne sees us.

And also, what we've learned about the Indian has been largely taught to us by Hollywood and by motion pictures, they have educated us, so we naturally believe that when the Indians came, that the wagons circled and the Indian rode around and subjected themselves to terrible fire and died at a ratio of 65 to 1..and that wasn't the way it was at all.

But anyway, Indians have been *tragically* misrepresented in films and in our history books, in our attitudes, in our reporting, so we must set about to re-educate ourselves....

Let me tell you another thing, at a time when we say, especially, that we're going to keep our Treaties and that we do keep our word and that we, above all people, *do* keep our word, I think it's important to mention that there have been nearly 400 Treaties written by the United States, in good faith with the Indians, and *every single one of them* was abrogated, it means broken, or changed, or altered...."

Subject: RE: BS: US Thanksgiving--Debate
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 06:54 PM

Lizzie, your cause is good, but a) you don't have all of your facts straight, and b) you come on like a shrieking harpy! You accuse, you try to assign collective guilt to people who had nothing to do with the oppression you're raging about, you call people you don't even know names.

You put people off! You express yourself so offensively that you make people angry, not about the oppression you're trying to call attention to, but at YOU!

You're doing your cause more harm than good!

Don Firth