Irish? Sez who? and why?

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 10:54 AM

.... or a cat, seeing as it's pipes we're talking about!

Exit stage left...

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 10:42 AM

"He who pays the piper plays the tune" ...
.,,.
In interests of accuracy, he calls the tune!

Otherwise it would be like keeping a dog and barking yourself, as the saying goes!

~M~

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 10:01 AM

In all fairness, (is that an Irish idiom?) I don't think the Clancys, the Dubliners, or any of the Irish ballad groups that became popular abroad claimed all the songs on their repertoire were Irish. I'm sure if they introduced the songs they would have mentioned their provenance. It is not their fault if people assumed that the songs they sang were all "Irish". Such groups tended to pick songs,that suited their style of music, from all over the English speaking world.

I attend song sessions in various locations. A lot of songs will get a lukewarm even if polite reception from the tourists, but as soon a they hear "The Wild Rover" or "The Leaving of Liverpool" they literally go 'wild' - broad smiles appear and vigorous clapping ensues. They obviously expect to hear those songs so the entertainers oblige. "He who pays the piper plays the tune"

Of course many Irish also assume many of those songs are Irish, but they are likely to be people with only a slight interest in trad music. As already mentioned most Irish people have little interest in trad, even if it does have a strong minority following. Just tune across the radio dial when in Ireland to hear what people really like. Or go looking for a trad session in any provincial non-tourist town on a weekend - you'll be out of luck in most places.

Slán

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 11:31 AM

I think Howard Jones below has it pretty much nailed there.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 11:11 AM

I suspected it was. Not watching the match?

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 11:07 AM

I know Peter - a feeble joke, but mine own!
Jim

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 08:22 AM

Jim, I think that was just a manner of speech, not an actual book.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 06:59 AM

Guest
I would be very interested to have the details of your book
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 06:40 AM

For Mr Laban's benefit- in my book, 'what traditional music is all about' is as part of a 'culture' not the kind of debased musical commercialism which is rampant at places like Doolin (but not exclusively there)which are promoted by 'Bord Failte' as real Irish music.
I just want the foreign visitors to Ireland with a genuine interest in the music not to be conned by this crap.
I don't like 'country & irish', it's awful, but in some ways a more genuine part of Irish life in 2013 than a mob of youngsters playing reels as fast as possible with half the folk unable to hear anything because of the horrendous noise. That s NOT 'traditional music'- it's a travesty.....oh and to get back to the thread, many genuinely Irish popular folk songs current today on the Irish scene were only kept alive by the Irish living in the US and the UK revival in the 50s and 60s.,

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 07:57 PM

I seem to remember that Tim Hart claimed that "lish" meant "randy", but let's wait and see what Geoff has to say ...

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 02:11 PM

Doolin is what it is and it functions the way it does because many people will find there what they are looking for.

And what 'is traditional music all about' ??

Who's to say. Entertaining yourself and your neighbours? I am not fond of that sort of generalisation. It can mean many things to many people and over times these things can and do change too.

Maybe that's for another time and place to discuss rather than diverting this thread any further in that direction.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 02:02 PM

trouble is a county with wonderful music like Clare is now afflicted with the ghastly commercial 'trad' produced at ripoff places like Doolin- how can this be stopped- it is against all ideas of what 'traditional' music is all about and our foreign visitors deserve better

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 12:43 PM

'Add to this the number of cultural tourists we are now getting for the real thing.'

Well, or a version of the real thing. But that's probably also where the danger lies, as soon as (tourist) business interests start wanting to milk the music as a commodity in earnest the 'real thing' will be on the way out. That said, there was someone from Bord Failte on the radio recently saying Ireland should stop milking the old stale image of diddly-ay and thatched cottages (their words, more or less) in favour of something more modern and contemporary.

Another sign of the times may be that Glór in Ennis, initially sold as a place to become a performance centre of excellence to draw in (and shake down, as was the implication) the cultural tourists in their droves, hasn't had a crumb of 'the real thing' on their programme for months (yes, I know, the county offers a lot in other spots and there's the recession. But still).

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 11:43 AM

"Jim, it depends on where you are."
I agree entirely Peter - can remember seeing a sign in Carlingford last year advertising "traditional music session - 3 weeks time".
Even in places like Glenties in Donegal, or towns like Caherciveen in Kerry a couple of decades ago we sat in pub after pub either watching the tele or listening to Hank Williams soundalikes on the jukebox.
Development here is uneven, but what there has been so far has helped establish a national base with the archives and the fact that you can turn the television or radio on and hear well played and intelligently presented traditional music and well-made documentaries on the music and song.
I wonder if any UK dwellers would like to tell us how accessible traditional music is in Britain - I can remember having to write down broadcasting of trad music dates in my diary (if ever we got word of them in advance), they were so far apart dates - I suspect that there haven't been too many changes in the fourteen years since I left (though I would go out and get very, very drunk tonight at Friel's, in celebration if someone were to tell me I am wrong.
It's a far cry from the days when, if musicians entered entered a pub with their instrument they were told to either leave it in the box or leave.
The fact that the peer pressure no longer is a strong enough disincentive to stop youngsters learning the music - I suppose you've heard Kevin Glackin's account of having to go to music lessons with his fiddle hidden under his coat for fear of ridicule from his schoolmates.
Now a strong base has been established it is possible to develop out (providing the predatory bankers and political morons don't nause it up).
Add to this the number of cultural tourists we are now getting for the real thing.
And nothing can take away the fact that we now have three generations of players sharing sessions.
Saying which, again, I agree with you - no room for complacency.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 10:25 AM

The OP asked "why"? I suspect it has its roots in the marketing of music to appeal to the Irish diaspora, going back at least to Irish tenors such as John McCormack and others that ilk. (Incidentally, while googling this topic I discovered that the term "Irish Tenors" has been appropriated by trio of classically-trained Irish-Americans.)

More recently, it exploits a romantic view of 'celtic' culture which leads to films about Scotland having soundtracks played on uilleann pipes.

Finally, it has to be admitted that bands like the Chieftains, the Dubliners, the Clancy Brothers, the Furies and the Pogues have achieved a mainstream success and international public profile which few English or Scottish folk bands have matched.

Against this background it is unsurprising that the average member of the public associates this sort of music with Ireland.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 07:56 AM

Personally I couldn't give a toss where a song originated. If it turns up among the Irish or English or Scots traditions, then it's an Irish or English or Scottish song as far as I'm concerned.

However I get extremely irritated when Waltons Learn An Irish Folksong A Day, or whatever it might be titled, includes The Nightingale or The Bonny Lass of Fyvie in versions which never saw the light of day in Ireland; at least not until the Dublin ballad boom of the 1960s'.

For me the nadir arrived via a certain music publisher who kept sending me "arrangements" of "folk songs" such as Annie Laurie and Drink to me Only With thine Eyes, expecting me to review them. One day they sent me a copy of a genuine folksong, Roud 816 to be precise, more or less as it appears in the Penguin Book of English Folksongs.

Moreover, it had been arranged for voice, oboe and piano by no less a personage than James MacMillan. yes, that James MacMillan, the one who composed The Confession of Isobel Gowdie. Here's one guy who ought to know what he's talking about, thinks I.

Oh yeah. The title page called it "The Blacksmith; An Irish Folksong"!

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 05:37 AM

Thank you Gnu - nearly sums it up perfectly

Jim, it depends on whee you are. While I do think there are probably more people involved in traditional music in Ireland than in most other places, I think it would be foolish to suggest all, or even a majority of Irish people have an interest in Irish music. Certainly, you and I live in an area where music comes naturally and is part of life for many, that doesn't mean it is that way everywhere around the country.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 03:44 AM

"Indeed, whenever I've been to the emerald isle, the most popular music is c & w."

I think though that many now are very proud of their traditional music - quite rightly. However and I don't mean to be funny but this is seriously what I've found.We have a pub session every Friday night and there are always tourists there. Mostly English or Scottish but we get lots of Americans, Irish people and Aussies etc too plus toher Europeans. People often request songs and you know what people are like if they've had a drink sometimes they can go on and on. English, Americans and Aussies etc are holidaying in Scotland and more often than not they ask for Scottish songs. As you would! However the Irish tend to ask for Irish songs or at least they ask for what they think are Irish songs. Not all the Irish songs they ask for are actually Irish. Now I know that is a sweeping statement but it is what I've tended to find. It always strikes me as strange. I wouldn't go to Donegal and ask the players in a pub to play Caledonia or Both Sides The Tweed! I'd want to hear the music of the country I was visiting!

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 03:35 PM

Thank you Gnu - nearly sums it up perfectly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 03:18 PM

'not all Irish people play, or even like, Irish traditional music.'

What's his name?

>;-)

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 10:19 AM

"Indeed, whenever I've been to the emerald isle, the most popular music is c & w."
Depends on where you go.
Traditional music in Ireland is now officially recognised.
As early as 20 years ago the Irish Traditional Music Archive was opened by the then President of Ireland.
Ten Years ago, when they moved premises, the move was addressed by the Arts Minister John O'Donoghue.
Itish Music has been the recipient of huge grants.
Youngsters are now flocking to it in their thousands.
The future of instrumental Irish music is now assured for at least the next two generations
None of this refers to singer/songwriter music or watered down traditional music - most of the exponents have learned from the old boys often from direct contact with them
Ireland's arrchives at UCD, Merrion Square and Henrietta Street are of world class and are the envy of every country that is any way interested in Traditional music.
I can't think of any country in the world where that is the case.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 09:30 AM

'not all Irish people play, or even like, Irish traditional music.'

Indeed, whenever I've been to the emerald isle, the most popular music is c & w.

However in many pubs in Germany, Irish music belting out through the speakers is very popular

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 09:12 AM

That would make Paul Simon's "Homeward Bound" and various others of his songs English songs! Seriously though you have a point if a song is written about Ireland then it has much more of a connection with Ireland hence much easier to describe it as an Irish song. I'm thinking of songs which have no connection with Ireland other than an Irish group has decided to record them.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Jon Heslop
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 08:42 AM

At recent folk festival I had the experience of hearing one of my own compositions sung by somebody who then claimed it as an Irish song. I was about to remonstrate with this person after his performance but was struck by the thought that I wrote it about Ireland whilst on holiday there and set it to an Irish sounding tune when I got home.
Now, if it was written about Ireland,in Ireland does that make it Irish even if I'm not?

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 08:50 PM

"Which is why I started with 'I believe"
A move in the right direction and a far cry from your past sneery dismissal of your THEORIES.
I have no claim as to where 'Streams' originated; I do suspect it's earlier than the 19th century, but that is instinct, not knowledge, nor do I claim it to be anything else - how could I - how would we possibly know where it started..
I put it up as an example of a song assumed by many to be English, including me until I started working in Ireland.
I don't "believe" it started anywhere - I don't know, nor have I given the matter too much thought, so why should I go gathering versions?
On the other hand, I would be interested to learn why you believe "the earliest is Irish, but not in the Republic", beyond the fact (or not) that the earliest printed version may have appeared there - which I believe to be a totally irrational basis for any assumption.
I'm becoming increasingly bemused by the number of people whose opinions and work I otherwise respect seem to have fallen into the trap of assuming that because many folks songs appeared in print, that is where they originated - the Achilles heel of the otherwise excellent expanded 'Penguin Book of English Folk-song as far as I'm concerned.
So far nobody has offered an explanation as why they have come to such an illogical (I feel I am growing a pair of Mr Spock's pointy ears, the number of times I feel forced to use the word) conclusions.
Perhaps you can enlighten me - or then again, perhaps not.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 04:33 PM

Very true, Martin.

Jim,
Which is why I started with 'I believe'. Now if you can come up with lots of early versions from the Republic the likelihood of which way the song travelled might be reversed.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 03:49 PM

"I believe the original or at least earliest is Irish, but not the Republic."
Steve
To repeat what I have said many, many time, you, I or anybody have no idea of what is "the original or at least earliest".
You may have traced the earliest printed version, but our knowledge of the oral tradition only goes back to the end of the nineteenth century so unless somebody has come down from a mountain with a couple of stone tablets under his arm and handed you information the rest of us aren't privy to - you know no more than the rest of us.
Sorry 'bout that!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 03:12 PM

I have heard Scots say that Amazing Grace is definitely a Scottish tune. Just because a pipe band recorded it in the 70s.

It seems to be Americans who are most keen on that attribution. In fact Americans seem mightily keen on giving their own tunes away to the Irish or the Scots. If I play a set of American old-time tunes, chances are some American listening is going to insist they're all Irish.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 03:05 PM

"Was your band advertised as playing traditional music?"

yes

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 02:12 PM

What about songs about Ireland that are not actually Irish? 40 shades of Green and Clare to here spring to mind.

D.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 02:07 PM

Steve

At the time of the song's main travels, of course, there was no republic.

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 02:03 PM

I believe the original or at least earliest is Irish, but not the Republic. It used to be called 'The Strands of Magilligan'. It came over very likely via Liverpool then Manchester. By the time it reached the south of England the broadside hacks and oral tradition had changed it into 'The Streams of Lovely Nancy'. It's interesting to trace the printed progression from Northern Ireland to the south of England in the early 19thc. But it's useful to know that it spread into the Republic as well.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 12:34 PM

Got a PM. Yes, I know that. My post was, I thought, clearly tongue in cheek, I meant no disrespect to anyone or their music and I most certainly know what trad is, whether written 300 years ago or 30 years ago or tomorrow.

BTW... excellent discussion and some very interesting, delightfully comical posts. I'll try harder next time. >;-)

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 12:24 PM

"Now let's have one for the lovely old English song 'The Streams of Lovely Nancy'."
Will this do - recorded from blind Tipperary Traveller woman Mary Delaney?
Jim Carroll

There's A Mountain In Sligo   
Mary Delaney (tape 96)

There's a mountain in Sligo and it bears a big name,
It is dressed from the land right out to the top,
With grand arches and nice porches and two lamps burning bright,
'Twould make a lighthouse for the Travellers of a cold winters night

There was three rings on my love's fingers and there was one of them gold,
There was one in the middle and I'll break it in two,
Saying, take this lovely Betsy, from your snares you let me free,
And I brought her a road by a dark and shady grove.

( Alternative verse, tape 91)
Then I offered her silver and she offered me gold,
She proffered me more money than her apron wouldn't hold
Saying, take this lovely Betsy, from your snares you'd let me free,
And I brought her along by a dark shady grove.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 12:03 PM

Having originally heard the song "The Lish Young Buy a Broom" from the same source as MtheGM I had no qualms about the word in question since being more familiar at that time with "The Keel Row" which too is from the North although the opposite coast to LYBAB the second verse goes:-
'O wha's like my Johnnie,
Sae leish, sae blithe, sae bonnie?
He's foremost 'mang the mony
Keel lads o' coaly Tyne;
Which I still maintain is a similar description (lithe, able bodied etc).
In the early seventies I once heard "Martin Said To His Man" introduced as an Irish song and more recently saw a CD "The Songs of Ireland" or similar which contained "The Fields of Vietnam"

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 11:00 AM

I'm not sure these comparisons work. Scotch Tape was a trade name and had nothing to do with Scotland excepting, I'm led to believe, the crude stereotype that you didn't need much of it. French fries got their name because they are very common in French speaking Belgium and north-east France; a Chinese restraunt sells Chinese food; a wiener or sausage dog is called that because it is shaped like a sausage; and the German Shepherd was a breed originally from Germany or at least Alsace which is part German. I can see why someone would call something an Irish song if it comes from Ireland or the Irish diaspora, or even if it is about Ireland. Maybe even if it is an old ballad that may only possibly have come from Ireland. But there is no excuse for calling aomething an Irish song if we know where it came from and pretty often even who wrote it. It surely takes something away from real Irish songs (ie the real tradition)if every song that gets sung at some point in a bar somewhere in Ireland, or gets recorded by some Irish singer, then gets called an Irish song?

They are not the only ones that do it of course. Just the worst. I have heard Scots say that Amazing Grace is definitely a Scottish tune. Just because a pipe band recorded it in the 70s.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 10:58 AM

So when the man-on-the-street needed a name for old-fashioned dance tunes and ballads, he came up with "Irish music."

No man from my street would ever come up with that! Am I right in presuming this street is in the US of A? For all we do get a lot of confused people in the UK I am not aware of any who would class old-fashioned dance tunes and ballads as Irish music. Our radio announcers, concert promoters and anyone who has the vaguest notion of what they are talking about certainly know the difference anyway.

Maybe this is where the confusion comes in? Are we, once again, experiencing two nations divided by a common tongue?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 10:52 AM

A few days ago I went to "Irish Fest" here in Kansas City. I listened to five numbers by a band from Ireland, and the first four were American. (After that we couldn't stand the miserable sound, so we went home.) So apparently even musicians from Ireland have a loose definition of 'Irish music.'



Was your band advertised as playing traditional music or was that just taken for granted because the musicians came from Ireland?

It may surprise you but not all Irish people play, or even like, Irish traditional music.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 09:49 AM

What do these expressions have in common?

French fries
Wiener dog
German shepherd
Chinese restaurant
Scotch tape

They look national, but they aren't. Nobody expects to order French fries and to receive potatoes from France. If your child says "Look, a wiener dog!" you do not expect it to come from Wien, etc.

"Irish music" is becoming a phrase such as that.

When I was a kid, there was a kind of music on the radio called "country and western." It was an acknowledged class of music, old-fashioned and sentimental. But in the last 50 years, that music has become harsher, more commercial, and more like rock. But the people behind that brand of music are powerful, and no lone radio announcer is going to be first to say, "Country? What does this stuff have to do with the country?"

So when the man-on-the-street needed a name for old-fashioned dance tunes and ballads, he came up with "Irish music." It is not a strictly-sensible name, but nobody has ever said that language is strictly sensible. Instead of criticizing, we should be glad that people are fighting to keep the old music alive in the face of Nashville's assault on the human mind.

A few days ago I went to "Irish Fest" here in Kansas City. I listened to five numbers by a band from Ireland, and the first four were American. (After that we couldn't stand the miserable sound, so we went home.) So apparently even musicians from Ireland have a loose definition of 'Irish music.'

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Musket musing
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 09:44 AM

Mind you, arguing in a pub in Dublin the other year with a friend who happens to be of the emerald and pig under your arm persuasion;

It got a bit heated when he was trying to convince me that The Band Played Waltzing Matilda was written by Shane McGowan. I told him, being rather pissed and mischievous, that nobody from London could have written such a decent song and it must have been a Scottish bloke with a working knowledge of Australia.

Then we got onto Dirty Od Town.





Then the landlord asked us to stop feckin' shouting at each other.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 09:31 AM

Now let's have one for the lovely old English song 'The Streams of Lovely Nancy'.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 09:02 AM

The phenomenon of YouTube fandom having its own ideas of who "owns" music regardless of what the performers say is common enough with Irish music buffs, but gets MUCH MUCH nastier in south-east Europe or the Caucasus. If you look at the comments to just about any song poular enough to have crossed a few national borders, you can learn how to say "your mother wears army boots" in Greek, Turkish, Albanian, Armenian, Azeri, Kurdish, Hungarian, Arabic and half a dozen Slavic languages.

There is a fabulous documentary about one instance of the process:

Whose Is This Song?

That film maker has guts.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 08:37 AM

Interesting to see the ant-hill stirring after listening to Georgie Best being described as an 'English' footballer for so long - not that I give a toss for football, mind you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 06:24 AM

Nice one, Steve!

The Nickelharpa that once through Tara's Halls, the soul of music spread.. - doesn't have quite the same ring to it, does it? ;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 05:52 AM

the "lovely celtic lyrics and Irish accent" of Kate Rusby
performing Sandy Denny's "Who Knows where The Time Goes"!

OK, beat that! (Personally I'm very partial to the lovely celtic lyrics and Irish accent of Chas and Dave singing 'Gertcha'...)

Back in the glorious days of the monthly Preston Eurojam, there were about ten of us sat around playing one Sunday lunchtime with a hurdy-gurdy and a set of Swayne bagpipes and, IIRC, a nyckelharpa, amongst the more usual flute, concertina, clarinet, violins etc. We played French bourrees and mazurkas, we played Swedish polskas and hambos, Italian munieras, and anything else that crossed our collective mind.

And at the end of this particular session one of the pub regulars said to me (you guessed) "you know, that was great, I really love all that Irish music ... "

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 05:12 AM

'the number of people who think they are Irish is amazing - and when we explain , they have no idea that there are ANY traditional English dance tunes!'

Sadly, unlike most other countries & esp the 'home countries' of Gt. Britain, English folk song, dances & tunes are not included in mainstream school education, so it's really unsurprising that most everyday people are ignorant of their existence

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Reinhard
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 05:03 AM

Yesterday I got a newsletter from a well-known German folk mailorder shop. They list "The Liberty to Choose: Songs from the New Penguin Book of English Folk Songs" in the section "Scotland"...

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Dave Hunt
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 05:00 AM

We play in a lot of pub sessions - pretty well ALL English tunes, and the number of people who think they are Irish is amazing - and when we explain , they have no idea that there are ANY traditional English dance tunes!
DAVE

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 04:40 AM

...around Eire and the British Isles..

Now, if we're talking about geographical confusion.... ;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 04:16 AM

the "lovely celtic lyrics and Irish accent" of Kate Rusby performing Sandy Denny's "Who Knows where The Time Goes"!

OK, beat that! (Personally I'm very partial to the lovely celtic lyrics and Irish accent of Chas and Dave singing 'Gertcha'...)

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 03:58 AM

I got summarily booted off 2 Facebook pages for "stirring it" - Scottish Folk Music" and "Scottish Songwriters and Friends ( friends....really??) ......for daring to supply the correct composer for one of the songs on YouTube that someone had posted and incorrectly attributed to another author! Of course, I wrote a song about it.

The Irish songs thing is possibly also perpetuated by the collection of 4 books that you can buy over here entitled "Songs and Ballads sung in the pubs of Ireland", which do contain quite a few Scottish and English ones too. The book title is, I suppose, accurate, but have heard friends refer to the books as "my Irish songbooks"

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 03:52 AM

I wonder if it's a misplaced as well as displaced feeling of 'loving everything Irish' that principally originates from the States?

You get the same sort of thing happening on St. Patrick's day when all kinds of folk songs, traditional foods and so-on that hail from anywhere approximately in or around around Eire and the British Isles, are fondly claimed and celebrated as being "Irish"

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 09:33 PM

Allan Conn: I've seen youtube clips where the Irish performers, be it Luke or whoever, will say this is a Ewan MacColl song or whatever and the comments on the videos will still insist it is Irish. Taking no note of what the singers themselves have said in their intro.

Happens a lot on YouTube. I've added comments to a German "Celtic" band's rendition of "Fiddler's Green", to a song by Steve Tilston about Tom Paine performed by Pig's Ear described as: "Wow Celtic music and Tom Paine!! I'm in heaven." by an American, and corrected another American who waxed lyrical about the "lovely celtic lyrics and Irish accent" of Kate Rusby performing Sandy Denny's "Who Knows where The Time Goes"!

I correct them where I see them, but the "drip drip" of corrections is as nothing to the flood of mis-apprehension!

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: gnu
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 08:46 PM

Oh dear. Trash trad talk? Irritable Irish idlers and scurrilous Scots stealing songs from the English invaders? And what of the Welsh? Surely these contributing Celts must also pay for the education of the Germanic Tribes that invaded Britannia some thousand years ago?

Now, that Morris dancing stuff? Welllll... hells bells eh?

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 08:17 PM

English songs sung in Ireland become "Irish" just as Scots songs sung anywhere become known as being from wherever they are sung.
There is a huge Anglo-Irish repertoire; fifty-plus Child ballads were recovered in Ireland between the late 1960s and the mid-90s, many of them having disappeared elsewhere from the tradition, some of them a century or so before - making them 'Irish', though very few, if any originated here.
Apropos of nothing, in rural Ireland 'liss' refers to a fort or forth, an Iron age settlement believed in tradition to be the home of fairies - the "little" or "good" people.
They have been protected by superstition through the centuries, never built on or worked out of respect for their believed origins and are now widely recognised as major saviours of Irish archaeology.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 05:31 PM

lish looks very much like Irish without the 'r'. Goes to prove it IS Irish after all. Or lish...

:D tG

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: meself
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 10:28 AM

Maybe because the Irish "make it their own" ... ?

Along with, of course, the tendency of many people to become with each beer consumed more adamant about things they know nothing about.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 10:18 AM

Lish, lithe and lissome might all be related. We've seen long i's and short i's do the do-si-do before. (my dictionary says that 'lisssome' comes from 'lithesome.')

Blithe and bliss
Lithe and lish

Wind and wind, as in

........................oh wind,
if winter comes, can spring be far behind?
===========
I just saw that 'lissome' means agile, but a 'lissom' is one of these three nouns:

1. a cleft in a rock
2. a platform or broad stratum of rock
3. a length of rope or braided straw

Who'd a thunk it?

Nice talking about language with you, M, Phil and Allan.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 09:17 AM

Gordon (and MtheGM) - if we can be sure of anything, we can be sure that 'lish' hasn't got anything to do with 'delicious'. Here's the fruit of a few minutes' googling:

Lish adj Fit, agile Musta bin a gae lish coo er a lauw yat. It must have been a very agile cow or a low gate. It is popularly believed that this is the correct reply to the question, 'can a cuddy lowp a yat?' Lore has it that it is used to identify Cumbrians exiled in foreign parts, in a similar manner to the way that Masons identify each other through use of esoteric phrases.

[This is a bit odd, as 'cuddy' means 'donkey', not 'cow'.]

Lish, c., s.w., Leesh, N. supple, active.
Lishlike, G. well-made.

[I think "c." etc are short for "central", "North" and "southwest", i.e. regions of Cumbria; not sure about "G.", though]

Instances of misapprehension of the meanings of unaccustomed words and phrases are often quoted in the district. One of the best of them was told of a wealthy yeoman, well known in West Cumberland, who was sent when a youth to Green Row to finish a not very complete education, and being asked in class what is a verb active, replied, "a lish an."

[Pauses while gales of laughter subside]

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 08:30 AM

In a neat little town called Barking,

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Gordon T
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 08:20 AM

Geoff Wood is still around (he collected the Lish Young By A Broom) and ,in fact, still performing most weeks at his regular club the Grove in Leeds on a friday. He seems to have taken to reciting poems by people like W.B Yeats - but does them from memory, which is quite impressive.I'll ask him when I see him in a week or two - but I always assumed "lish" was simply a condensation of "delicious".
... and for your delectation and delight here are two more songs almost always attributed wrongly as irish - The Black Velvet Band (from Harry Cox) and The Wild Rover (from loads of english singers)

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 08:03 AM

...also labelled 'Celtic' music

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 07:58 AM

I think 'lissom' is a false friend - it's a variant of 'lithe' (it's a contraction of 'lithesome'), & I can't see 'lithe' mutating into 'lish'.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 06:26 AM

It isn't mentioned in the newer Concise Scots Dictionary but the Chambers Scots Dictionary published in 1911 gives the defintion of LISH as being "lithe, supple, agile" agreeing with Phil's definition

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: IanC
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 06:03 AM

Probaby a nearer word to lish, and one which remains in common English usage, is lissome which means most of the things above including active/agile.

:-)

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 04:55 AM

Incidentally, "lish" is an old Cumbrian dialect word meaning "nimble, agile, fit". Nobody seems to know where it comes from. One nineteenth-century lexicographer linked it speculatively with another local word of Nordic origin, "lysk" meaning "the groin". "Lis" is contemporary Norwegian for "light" or "fair"; it's not quite the same meaning, but it seems closer.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,eDerrick
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 04:55 AM

Noreen,I do not have anti Irish prejudices,I have Irish ancestors and am proud of it.
Perhaps I should have said "many of" instead of "the" Irish in the first sentence.
The remainder of my post consists of suggestions as to why so many people, Irish and otherwise, have the belief that so many songs and tunes
are of Irish origen when they are not.
Your second post supports those who suggest the idea that, if it is sung by an Irish singer the implication it is Irish or has Irish connections, leads to so many people of all nationalities believing it actually is Irish.
The answer to the original question "sez who", many ill informed people.
"and why" they can't be bothered to find the real answer.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 04:33 AM

Indeed ~~ and many thanks for the information. I will just say that I think it was probably a misguided approach, as being clearly liable to produce more confusion than enlightenment; but do not feel moved to comment further, now that my two questions in the thread title have been so satisfactorily answered.

Again: Thanks to contributors and informants.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 04 Sep 13 - 04:12 AM

I think Noreen has given the explanation MtheGM was looking for. I only looked under one letter of the alphabet and discovered a song written by me but performed by the Dubliners. I find these sites very valuable when looking for lyrics but most comments have to be taken with a pinch of salt. The site includes The Skye Boat Song which underlines the ignorance of the site originator.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Noreen
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 07:03 PM

Looking further, it seems the site originator isn't likely to be too interested in our input:

THIS collection consists of more than 1000 songs commonly associated with, or considered to have some connection with Irish music. This connection may simply be that they are often performed by "Irish" bands or in Irish pub sessions. However, as the main purpose is to provide the songs that site visitors are looking for, I have opted to also include many songs in the "associated" category, I hope this does not offend too many or cause you to grind your teeth when you look through the list of included songs below.

Irish Songs and Ballads - Lyrics - index page


Exit Noreen, grinding teeth....

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 06:57 PM

From memory I seem to think that Geoff collected "Lish Young Buy A Broom" while the singer bawled it out of one of the stalls in the pub gents! The term "Buy a broom", by the way, was a (North Country?) term for a gypsy, because at one time this was how some of them earned a living. The "music" was a melodeon (a term still used in East Anglia).
Geoff is still (at 90+) very much alive and kicking in the Leeds area, or so I was told recently. A lovely man.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Noreen
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 06:43 PM

Anyone any idea what goes on here?

Seems pretty obvious to me- an English chap from East Sussex set up a website, for his own interest, containing all sorts of stuff, and made it available to anyone who's interested.

Unfortunately for those of us who do care, he doesn't seem particularly bothered about accuracy in his classification of the songs he's included.
Not only the Lish Young Buy-a-Broom, but also from a quick perusal, he thinks that Lord of the Dance, the Band Played Waltzing Matilda and I Wish I was back in Liverpool are also Irish.

He might be interested in amending his lists or he may not- but that's up to him. We can take advantage of the site he's put together (which also has the Child Ballads, and lots of instrumental tutors) or we can ignore it.

What there is absolutely NO BASIS for, is the trotting out of the same old boring lines about 'The Irish' claiming that all folk songs are Irish, or Derrick sharing his anti-Irish prejudices.

Please, give it a rest- it gets REALLY boring.

Thanks to leenia and anyone else who has tried to add something new to this thread.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 06:36 PM

I've seen youtube clips where the Irish performers, be it Luke or whoever, will say this is a Ewan MacColl song or whatever and the comments on the videos will still insist it is Irish. Taking no note of what the singers themselves have said in their intro.

We have a pub session on a Friday night which does have a lot of the crowd pleasers played. I had an English guy the other week ask why we only played Irish songs? We'd done "Dirty Old Town" "Shoals of Herring" and "Leezie Lindsey" :-)

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Betsy
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 06:16 PM

Sometime in the early 70's ( could have been late 60's) I had the pleasure to be taken for a pint the night after I'd sang at the Adelphi Folk Club in Leeds. With me was Helen and Bob Spray and Jill and Jules Pidd. They introduced me to "the Professor". The Professor (Geoff Woods) was affectionately named, because he knew more about traditional Folk music than any of the rest of us.
He was a lovely entertaining and informative bloke - and he gave me the words to the "Lish Young Buy-a-Broom " which he said he had collected around 1947, all of which "pans-out" with MtheGM's Posting above.
The only contention I have, is, I would have thought that the song is from Westmorland and not from Cumberland, as, the place names Kirby Stephen and Kendal are clearly originally Westmorland although I fully understand the originator was from Cumberland.
Talk about splitting hairs !!!. I'll get me coat
Anyway back to the Subject Matter - One of the greatest Irishmen singers / performers Luke Kelly was a great Anglophile in his music choices especially Ewan McColl and later John Connolly / Bill Meek and it's possible that the less knowledgeable have formed their views listening to Dubliners CD's etc.
A Dutch couple in the North of Holland a had a pub called Fiddlers Green. They wouldn't believe it wasn't an Irish-written song, and, let's say, I wish I hadn't brought it to their attention. Some things are best left unsaid !!!!

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: John P
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 06:05 PM

I think maybe the Irish shouldn't be blamed for appropriating a song in this instance. The website listed at the top of this thread that called it an Irish song is in England, apparently operated by an Englishman. Are the English giving away songs these days?

It is true that lots of folks, including an ex-bandmate of mine, think any music from anywhere in the British Isles is Irish. A few folks also see Scotland as a distinct source of music, but often as a subset of Irish music. Irish music became very popular several years ago, and most non-experts aren't very good at details. Also, to the misty-eyed multitude, "Celtic" is romantic and English is not. Go figure.

To be fair, I've never heard an actual person from Ireland claiming non-Irish songs. Americans, on the other hand . . .

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 05:32 PM

Dearest leeneia: Only too gratified you should wish to address me in such delightfully familiar terms. Please do, indeed!.

Thank you for support re 'lish'. I wonder if it is derived in any way from 'delicious'?

Indeed, not only recorded by Irish singers anyhow. I recall it on one of Tim Hart & Maddy Prior's early 'Folk Songs of Old England' vinyls. Just went & found it on the shelf ~~ the sleeve note reads:

    'This Cumberland song is an amalgamation of three versions collected by Geoff Woods of Leeds between 1945-1967. It is believed to have been written by William Graham, "the Cumberland poacher".'

So, however much all folk music is Irish... LoL!

~M~

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: sapper82
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 03:11 PM

The reason why the English are reckoned not to have much in the way of folk music is that all the decent stuff has been pinched by the Irish!

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 01:08 PM

Yeah, "Fiddler's Green" is a prime example of a song performed by well known Irish groups, thereby "transforming" it into an Irish traditional song. John Conolly may say he's honored by this, but I bet he'd rather have the money that's due him.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 01:07 PM

Well, of course. Everyone knows that ALL folk music is Irish no matter where it is from :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: G-Force
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 12:43 PM

I recently heard 'Fiddlers Green' introduced as an Irish sea shanty.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 12:22 PM

Dick

Shouldn't that be "ever ung by an Irish performer."? ;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 12:12 PM

Always with the ethnic slurs! Aren't ya even gonna thank me for telling you what lish means?

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 11:04 AM

THe current definition of an Irish Traditional ong is "anything ever sung by an Irish performer"

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 10:58 AM

It seems to me that the Irish regard anything they sing or play in a pub as Irish trad even if they know who wrote it and that he was not even Irish.
Perhaps they believe only they, the Irish, know what folk music is.
Perhaps they are right,ie music sung and played by ordinary people for
its own sake is folk music, reguardless of commercial ideas of classification.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 10:51 AM

Well, M (may I call you M? I feel I know you well by now.) The tune begins thus:

"As I went a-walking in the North Country,
Down by Kirby Steven I happened for to be,
As I was a-walking up and down the street,
A pretty little buy-a-broom I chanced for to meet.

Chorus:
For she was right, I was tight, everybody has their way,
It was the lish young buy-a-broom that led me astray."

The action is set in the north of England, but nothing says our wandering narrator comes from there.   He could have come from Ireland.

However, we have a clue, the word "lish." My dictionary says it means "active, agile, quick" and comes from Scotland and the north of England. So if we assume that he's speaking his own dialect (and why wouldn't he?), it's safe to assume that lyrics are from Cumbria, where the action is set.

The phrase "buy-a-broom," meaning "broom seller" isn't in my dictionary. I like it.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 10:31 AM

Sorry, meant collected by Geoff Wood. (see above)

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 10:29 AM

Perhaps the fact that Clannad recorded the song had something to do with it. Several web sites refer to it as traditional, arranged by Geoff Wood. As you know, Michael,this sort of thing happens all the time in the folk music world.

Subject: RE: Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 10:08 AM

"Everybody knows" that there is no English folk music or song apart from a few comic songs from the West Country. Everything else by definition must be Scots or Irish

Subject: Buy·broom. Irish? Sez who? and why?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 13 - 09:52 AM

Googling the song "Lish Young Buy-a-Broom", I came across it on this website --

Irish Song Lyrics: Lish Young Buyabroom -- Irish Music - Song and Ballad Lyrics (http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/irish-songs-ballads-lyrics/lish_young_buyabroom.htm)

As the song is set in the North of England -- Cumbria, between Kirkby Stephen and Kendal -- I can't help wondering what sort of Irish Imperialism was in play to post it there.

Anyone any idea what goes on here?

~Michael~