BS: I dont understand the word homophobia

Subject: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: GUEST,I dont understand the word homophobia
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 02:24 PM

I think I figured out how to start a thread. Hi folks.

Theres a nother thread I saw last night and someone used homophobia. I dont understand why people use that word the way they do. A phobia is a fear but people use it to mean hate. Not the same thing.

The man or woman that wrote about newspeak from 1984 was making a point. Is this word a case of that?

Merci.

Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: meself
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 02:36 PM

Oh, dear - here we go.

Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 02:40 PM

This should be in BS if anywhere, and no doubt will be shifted.

Homophobia is a rather weird word. Strictly speaking it means "fear of the same", since the "homo" is from a Greek root meaning "same", as in words like homogenous, or for that matter homosexual. People assume it comes from the Latin word "homo", which actually means human being, for "man" as opposed to "woman" the word is "vir".

I suppose that it could be justified on the grounds that a homophobic person might be frightened of associating too closely with people of the same sex. But it is taken as meaning aversion to homosexuals as such, which is by no means the same thing.

Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: GUEST,Gervase
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 02:43 PM

...and so the illiterate voice the indefensible yet again, cloaked by anonymity. Any chance of letting this thread gently die? But there again maybe I misunderstood, which ain't hard.

Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 02:47 PM

If you can persuade yourself you don't understand a word as widely used as that, work at it and you can also manage to unlearn "potato" or "hand".

Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 02:50 PM

"A phobia is a fear but people use it to mean hate.

Actually, it's applied much more loosely than that. Not "hate",
but an expression of mere dislike or disapproval calls forth an accusation of "homophobia" these days.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 02:56 PM

I know, let's have a little game. Who can guess the identity of the Guest who began this thread?

Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 02:59 PM

Idiots will out, eh?

By the way, what does the term fuckwit mean?

Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 03:07 PM

Homophobia means an aversion to touch persons of the same sex (beyond handshake) or to see them naked. In many societies, this is expected from males, possibly hoped to prevent homosexuality. In other societies including some "hippie" communities in the 1970s, it was or is criticized - with no connection to homosexuality altogether.

Women, on the other hand, are often expected to embrace and kiss each other. Not long ago, many men believed that there is no such thing as female homosexuality at all. When someone caught his wife naked in bed with his neigbour's wife, he may well have found it cute.

However, homophobic women also exist, in various forms.

As McGrath mentioned, the word is sometimes falsely, wrongly, erroneously, and mistakenly used for aversion to homosexuals. This usage seems to have arisen only in the current century, but is embraced by many activists including Wikipedia authors in various languages.

Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 03:27 PM

"falsely, wrongly, erroneously, and mistakenly used for aversion to homosexuals."

Like it or not, that's what the word has meant for a long time. The editors of the OED include the word without comment or objection. The editors of every major academic and commercial publisher also approve of this usage.

You might try to coin a new synonym and then get the English-speaking world to use it instead. But I suspect you'd be wasting your time.

Because a word already exists.

(The "etymological fallacy" is the *false, erroneous, and mistaken* belief that what a word "really means" or "can only mean" is determined by its etymology rather by its actual and verifiable use. "EF" is a common but remediable condition that left untreated can lead to chronic irritability and possible high blood pressure.)

Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 03:45 PM

There's nothing erroneous in using the word "homophobia" to mean aversion to homosexuals. That's the only meaning the word has ever had in its brief history.

And regardless of what "phobos" meant in ancient Greek, "phobia" as a combining form in English commonly means an aversion, or a squeamish feeling or anxiety felt in open spaces (agoraphobia) or high places (acrophobia) or in the presence of homosexuals.

Homophobia sometimes leads to hatred, due to anger at the person who aroused the phobia, or anger at the person who calls a man homophobic, since phobia is often perceived as weakness in a man.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:35 PM

I'm the GUEST who originally posted to this thread, and I now understand how wrong I was. I took cheap refuge in mere etymology instead of trying to understand the problems caused by people's irrational hatred of those who don't conform with what they see as "normal behaviour". I now understand that honest love between people has never in itself been the cause of trouble in the world- it is only ever other people's reaction to that love that has caused problems, and that they had no right to make such a judgement.

This thread has served its purpose and can now be closed. Thank you all for your responses.

Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:45 PM

SRS, right you are - I for one am not going to repeat the former debate, no matter what tricks they try. But semantics is a different thing.

Lighter, my point is not only based on etymology, but on usage in the last decades of the 20th century, in English and French. I can speak from my own experience: self-declared taboo busters (in England) accused me of homophobia because I avoided touching other (heterosexual) men in the men's shower room.

Aversion against homosexuals was so commonplace then that no special word for it was needed.

A widespread idea (among those taboo busters) was that homophobic men are afraid of being accused of being homosexual themselves - rightly or not. Those who indeed had that motive (- not I -) may well have shouted against homosexuals more loudly than others. Note that the "hippies" and feminists preached softiehood, not homosexuality.

In Turkey, for example, men will often touch each other in ways that western societies reserve for women; this does not affect their attitude towards homosexuality.

In other words, many authors since ca. 2000 (1998?) use the word to mean something else than before. The only reason I can imagine for this is that they were looking for a word that had already acquired a pejorative value in "progressive" circles. This is not good semantics, and the OP's idea of "newspeak" is not without cause (- however often he is guilty of it himself).

Well, since many of us seem to have forgotten the old meaning and its context already, the risk of confusion and manipulation is not as high as in other similar cases.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 05:07 PM

Don't feel bad, guest. Many people "smitten" by it don't understand the words meaning, concept or the harm it does.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 05:33 PM

No, but they still hate fags, don't they? And the "Christian"[sic]"God"[sic] backs them up.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: GUEST,I dont understand the word homophobia
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 07:00 PM

English is not my language. It is French so I apologize if there is misunderstand. I have read George Orwell in French and the newspeak attracted my attention. Is homophobia nesspeak in English? Does it say one thing and mean another like the opposite? Phobia is phobie in French.

Merci

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 08:22 PM

Orwell's imaginary "Newspeak" results from a totalitarian regime's edict to minimize the English vocabulary, make the public dumber by erasing important shades of meaning, and promote blind acceptance of all government policies, no matter how sadistic, irrational, contradictory, etc.

So, by no stretch of the imagination is "homophobia" an example of "Newspeak," in "1984" or anywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 09:38 PM

notre ami

Unless your quest is for snooty abuse, I would suggest that this is not the best forum on the English speaking Internet for even mildly controversial political discussions.

I don't know exactly what you mean by News Speak but I don't think you are too far off. Think that the term was created with a political agenda. But then again maybe it is supposed to me a psychiatric diagnosis. It that is the case then it is applied far too widely especially by certain members of this forum. According to the wiki entry at the bottom of this post the word was coined in a book by a person named George Weinberg.

This is what I found when I Googled his name.

Weinberg is known for several major contributions to psychotherapy. He coined the word "homophobia" (in his revolutionary 1972 book, Society and the Healthy Homosexual) to propose that those who harbor prejudice against homosexuals, and not homosexuals themselves, are suffering from a psychological malady, an irrational state of mind. Weinberg, though supposedly heterosexual himself, became a leader in the ultimately successful struggle to have homosexuality removed as a diagnostic category from the DSM, the professional therapeutic handbook. He has been instrumental in shifting public perception of homosexuality.

Weinberg began using the word in 1966 and soon the then minute "homophile movement" began using it. Weinberg next prevailed on a friend, Al Goldstein, who published the underground newspapers, Gay and Screw, to introduce the word. He wrote articles for the underground press himself. He then persuaded a young student, Ken Smith, to do a research study for his masters degree on homophobia, and they designed the questionnaire together. It was the first published scientific study of homophobia.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/homophobia

Pronunciation

    IPA(key): /ˌhɒ.məˈfəʊ.bi.ə/, /ˌhəʊ.məˈfəʊ.bi.ə/
    Rhymes: -əʊbiə

Etymology 1

homo (from homosexual) +‎ -phobia, coined in 1971 by George Weinberg in Society and the Healthy Homosexual.
Noun

homophobia (countable and uncountable, plural homophobias)

    Fear, dislike or hate of gays and lesbians.

Synonyms

    (fear of homosexuality): homoerotophobia, heterosexism

Hyponyms

    gayphobia
    lesbophobia

Derived terms

    internalised homophobia

Related terms

    homophobe
    homophobic

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 09:41 PM

I tend to think that most of what we call "homophobia" IS fear, and not actual hatred. We might make more progress in ending homophobia if we were to understand that and respond with a positive approach rather than with aggression.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 09:58 PM

Joe's right. It's really a form of 'xenophobia'....which is fear of anything that seems different or 'strange'. Rather than feeling curiosity and moving 'towards' it in an attempt to understand, the xenophobe and homophobe do everything possible to get rid of it.

I won't say that all negative feelings towards homosexuality is homophobia....but most of it probably is, particularly when the reaction is such a strong one.   And considering that there really isn't anything much less threatening to our own well-being than someone whose sexual orientation is different from ours........strong negative feelings towards homophobia isn't rational.


But those of us who 'brand' all homophobes and feel hatred towards them are probably suffering from 'homophobia phobia'.   

But Joe isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 11:30 PM

I don't understand the word homophobia.....

Most people on here who accuse others, using that name, don't either!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 01:12 AM

No. But we have the word "goofus " weighed up, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 08:07 AM

homophobia 

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 09:02 AM

Was it Patrick Moore who first coined the homophobic* 'Adam & Steve' thing? Either way you have thought a man who spend so much time with his head in the stars would have resisted the urge to shove it up his own arse. Here's a classic clip in which he demonstrates courtesy & humility to a man claiming to speak Space Languages (pure glossolalia!) - shame he couldn't have extended it to Gays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjpcZPT1-NA

* The pragmatic meaning of the word is defined by its usage : a noxious discrimination of the sexuality of others predicated on a very purposeful prejudice. Fuck all to do with fear - everything to do with willful hatred, backed by insane ideas of what is 'natural' in the eyes of 'God'.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 09:48 AM

"The term 'homophobia', which is generally defined as the passive or active resentment or fear of someone who is lesbian, gay or bisexual..."

a href="https://www.atl.org.uk/policy-and-campaigns/policy-library/an-inclusive-culture-homophobic-bullying.asp">homophobia-ATL 

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 10:26 AM

Fears by their nature are founded or unfounded. If founded they are called that: fears. Phobias are what fears become when they are unfounded.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: bobad
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 11:10 AM

"Phobias are what fears become when they are unfounded."

Unless, of course, you are killed by the object of your phobia.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 11:15 AM

atl-homophobia and bullying

Sorry, the education link is above.

As noted earlier, homophobia is not a phobia, in the same sense as emotional disturbances as the general term "phobia" tends to be.However, it does tend to be an irrational attitude, including a "fear" of gay people.

Oddly enough while homophobia was never listed as a mental disorder, homosexuality was listed as such in many locals until the mid 70's.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 11:50 AM

Etymologically, "xenophobia" is a "fear of strangers," but it is most often used to mean a "fear, dislike, or hatred of foreigners or persons of different national origin, or of their cultural practices."

"Homophobia" is understood to have a parallel meaning.

So what?

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 01:15 PM

Yes Guest, you are right, hatred of homosexuals is what is written on the tin......hatred.
I don't see how anyone can be afraid of homosexuals, any more than being afraid of any other human being.
We are all human beings regardless of our sexual behavior.

The word is "newspeak", and it is used to demonise anyone who questions the liberal agenda, especially people of faith.
It is linked to political correctness and the idea of "thought crime"
Orwell used "newspeak" to illustrate how humanity could be silenced and intimidated by the use of certain words and phrases.....It is used not only by authoritarian governments, but also factions with access to great power, as in the use of the media and government agencies.

The health service public information pages are full of "newspeak", the only parts that cannot be adulterated are the statistics, but moves are afoot the conceal even them from public scrutiny.

Orwell would be even more appalled by the insidious nature of present day "liberalism" than he was of totalitarianism.
He would fight it tooth and claw....freedom of speech and freedom of thought are to valuable to be removed from society.

Orwell valued our traditions, our history and our literature, he would be disgusted to see how much of it is being rewritten in the "liberal" image.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 01:59 PM

Orwell, wouda' couda' shouda' said "".?..""

I admit that I did not actually know the author/gent in real life, and would not pretend to speak for what he did not actually say in his life.

:)

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 01:59 PM

""The term 'homophobia', which is generally defined as the passive or active resentment or fear of someone who is lesbian, gay or bisexual..."

To be accurate I suppose you'd have to include a proviso that the fear would need to be specifically on account of the orientation in question. Some people can be scary, straight, gay or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Musket
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 02:07 PM

How sad. Even in this debate, the worm masquerading as Akenaton shows how he doesn't agree with equality and the health service attempts to tackle issues by saying the health agencies are trying to cover up his lies rather than accept his lies are just that. Lies.   Where are we covering anything up?

Only in his head.

And what a dark hostile place that must be.

Awful. Truly awful.

Out of interest for our UK readers, the demise and adding of The Health Protection Agency responsibilities into a new body to cover all public health, (PHE) is an opportunity to see all the figures that inform planning and delivery of health services. I applaud that, and my role is to critique health policy.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 02:32 PM

Ed T, wouda' couda' shouda' said "".?..""

I will admit I do knot know the man in real life. Just second hand pixels

What is the worth of a third hand guess based up a second hand pixel.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 03:00 PM

"Some people can be scary, straight, gay or whatever."

Very true. But, they also may be quite nice folks, in other facits of their life, beyond what they cant seem to comprehend, with compassion, yet?

"Hope springs eternal in the human breast; 
Man never Is, but always to be blest. 
The soul, uneasy, and confin'd from home, 
Rests and expatiates in a life to come."

― Alexander Pope, An Essay on Man

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 03:09 PM

Un Canadien Errant

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 03:11 PM

The word is not in my much loved 1971 Complete Oxford dictionary.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 03:14 PM

I have also only just come across the TERF controversy.   That takes the discussion of bigotry into strange places.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 03:22 PM

the word first came to prominence in its country of origin in a book published in 1972 Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 04:03 PM

Weinberg's word and its definition were adopted in The Merriam Webster Dictionary, and the sole definition given in the Collegiate edition-

Homophobia- irrational fear of, aversion to or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals.

The date is given as 1969.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 06:56 PM

He did have an ongoing publicity campaign. Perhaps a Webster's employee sympathized with the cause of removing the medical stigma on homosexuality at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 06:58 PM

"Homophobia" in two distinct senses was admitted to the OED in 1993.

The prevailing sense is "Fear or hatred of homosexuals and homosexuality." The earliest example is from Time magazine in 1969.

Another sense, marked as "rare" and with a different etymology, is "Fear of men, or aversion towards the male sex; also, fear of mankind, anthropophobia." Only two quotations are given, one from 1920 and the other from 1960.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 10:28 PM

Besides the fact that Akenaton hit the nail on the head....should anyone be HIV/AIDS-a-phobic?

Not if you're in a straight, monogamous, loving, traditional family, huh? Why not promote that??..instead of demonizing those who are, and calling them inappropriate names, like 'homophobic'??...even if it does go against the 'so-called liberal' mob??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: PHJim
Date: 08 Apr 14 - 12:15 AM

I am in a straight, monogamous, loving traditional family and have never felt demonized nor been called inappropriate names like 'homophobic' that I am aware of. This is not what brands someone as a "homophobe". People who make inappropriate statements or actions directed at gays are, rightfully labeled "homophobic".

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Apr 14 - 01:40 AM

Keep banging the rocks together Goofus.

If nothing else, it adds to the noise.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Apr 14 - 07:17 AM

I was raised in a compasionate christian family that recognized the value of diversity in many aspects of life. They rightfully did not load us down by promoting any specific lifestyle,superior racial group, political or religious agenda, or sexual orientation. But, they did instill in us a respect for those marginalized in society, and stressed a duty to stand up to those less compassionate folks who attempt to marginalize and demonize those in a minority.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Apr 14 - 12:10 PM

i'm not sure it bears too much inspection. we are what we are. i'm more okay with gays than my dad, who was acop and spent part of his life as a cop stalking cottagers in the 40's, and 1950's.

but I grew up with the dictum that homosexuality was revolting. and lets face - some of us reject out parents values - and some of us don't.

we have lived through a society that has profoundly changed. just as we have grown more tolerant we have admitted to our society religions and lifestyles that are very different. on paper as a matter of public record they are intolerant of sexual diversity - but they come from parts of the world that aren't policed as thoroughly as England, and attitudes were de facto more tolerant than ours.

obviously we're not just talking about muslim societies, but also catholic countries - where presumably at some level they were comfortable with what their 'celibate' clergy were getting up to .

I have a feeling that we will sort all this out. in the meantime I can't blame gays for being vigilant of their rights and intolerant of people too mentally lazy - or incapable of sloughing off the crap attitudes that their parents and culture have bequeathed to them.

Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Apr 14 - 02:08 PM

"Not if you're in a straight, monogamous, loving, traditional family, huh? Why not promote that??..instead of demonizing those who are, and calling them inappropriate names, like 'homophobic'??...

That makes any number of times that you have implied (to say the least) that to advocate fair treatment of people who happen to be homosexual is to denigrate those who are not; now you've pushed it to the point of saying that those who advocate respect for people regardless of their orientation are "demonizing" people in straight monogamous families. The mental leap bridged by your first "..." above is just a bit wider than the breadth of all the rational thought known to mankind,