BS: Church joins real world

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 09:01 AM

well musket, I understand your fairy story goes back to an ancient greek sect.....what was it , life arising from fermenting rubbish or something. of course, yours gets a scientific gloss by virtue of newer discoveries that mean the need of oft rewrites to preserve the paradigm! .you are entitled to your faith but......
its a shame it gets shoved down our kids at school though.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 08:39 AM

Must have altered his medication. I haven't a clue what he is trying to say, and that is disturbing because neither does he.

Still, by asking for reasonableness, it's a start. All he had to do now is see that his attitude is unreasonable and has no place in enlightened times.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 03:24 AM

Perhaps most sensible people are just ignoring your obscene ranting Ian.
Take few days off, compose a reasonable response to the issues....stop relying on faith as an argument, while berating pete for holding a faith in god as a creator, which is much more likely than real meaningful equality ever appearing in a capitalist society.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 02:27 AM

So why trust two thousand year old fairy stories?

Just using the same logic you apply to carbon dating..

I really just popped in to see a post I knew would never be written. I wonder why that is, eh Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 04:07 PM

bill,- "nonsense"...."my, that looks pretty judgmental ! .."
see above, also, on neandertal.
as far as "jerky" is concerned, I think I have seen the term used by the authors, but it seems applicable anyway, as an alternative to gradualism.
"READ THIS !" 1....apart from the definition and example being slanted in favour of evolutionism , I fail to see why I am wrong to say that you were appealing to authority/numbers.
try slanting the definition and example in favour of creation science, and I hope you will get the point.
failing that, I will wait and see if it really is the " last time" that you "will say this" -grin-
"READ THIS" !    2....I SUPPOSE WE COULD ALL point to an article to argue a point with just a brief preface. maybe if I could work out clickys, I might do more too , but I hope that I would continue to substantiate, best I can, in my own words.
so, bill, if you would like to do likewise [with or without using the arguments in the link] we can continue the discussion.
but, in the mean time ,having read some of the link, I find no reason to trust evolutionary readings of radio carbon data. as I have said before, if they can misdate rocks of known age, why trust any date from their interpretations.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 03:01 PM

Scriptural geologists???

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 02:51 PM

stu.."....actually agree with pete on this one..." thankyou stu, gracious of you.
however, re buckland, while admitting that I don't know much about him, other than that he differed from the scriptural geologists, I would observe that he was before more recent observations and research, that now recognizes a place for at least some catastrophism in geology. his assessment reasoning for calling flood laid down strata, rubbish, may well be out of date.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 01:35 PM

Of course, it isn't offensive to point out that sad fact and you just have done so.

But nobody else has, so why refer to it?

Akenaton stated when it was a perversion, not when it was considered. But you know the distinction, you just can't bring yourself to say so.

If being considered makes it a fact, then the earth really was flat, it really did take seven days to make the universe. Shouting at an eclipse really did make it go away. Water really was an element. Sailing West from Spain took you to India as the first landfall. WW1 soldiers were well led. Fertility rituals worked. You were safe from lightning sheltering in a church with your gunpowder.

It is offensive to say people were perverts when they weren't. It is not offensive to lament that it used to be acceptable in our lifetime to judge people for being themselves. .
Your play on words doesn't impress. Neither does your mealy mouthed refusal to condemn.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 07:12 AM

In our time Musket, gay people were regarded by society and the law as perverts.
It is not offensive to refer to that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 06:41 AM

So stop saying Akenaton isn't being offensive, homophobic or bigoted. He just said "when it used to be perverted." Why aren't you asking him when that was then? Considering a) it has never been perverted and b) you are a stickler for pedantry in order to put down reasonable views yet you defend the most awful of views from other Mudcat contributors.

Yourself included come to think of it.

And when The Archbishop of Canterbury starts lobbying to remove the legal clause he voted for in The Lords banning his churches from marrying loving couples who happen to be the same sex, and when he takes The Bishop of Southwell to task, I might start believing his condescending lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 05:07 AM

Homophobia is as offensive to me as it to you and to the Archbishop of Canterbury, who condemned homophobia and said, "to treat every human being with equal importance and dignity is a fundamental part of being a Christian." He shared his particular concerns about the devastating impact of homophobia on gay teenagers, and reiterated the importance of a loving approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 03:24 AM

Stu. I have read quite a bit about Buckland and co. I recall I think it was Bill Bryson who pointed out that many country Parsons had time on their hands and many got curious about the world around them.

Attenborough's article still stands in principle. After all, it was Buckland's contemporaries who started coming out with the idea of fossils placed by God to question our faith.

Quite..

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 03:19 AM

I agree entirely with Keith A Hole of Hertford. Unfortunately, he rather hypocritically supports the homophobic stance of Akenaton by saying he isn't offensive. So why he feels there should be a warning is beyond me.

I am offensive to slime who ask for it and restrict my vitriol to them. Akenaton speaks of millions of people in the world who he has no knowledge if and condemns them as second class citizens on the basis of his fantasy.

Only one of us is a criminal. Only one of us is publishing incitement to hatred.

Perhaps Keith doesn't check every fucking post by every fucking reasonable person against his sacred fucking google after all? He seems to think that homophobia isn't offensive. Possibly got a Christian filter on his PC that allows bigotry but screens you from websites that question the awful disgraceful stance of his precious shit of a church.

zzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 10:27 PM

Michelangelo was commissioned by Pope Julius II to paint the Sistine Chapel, and Bach worked much of his life as a church organist and was commission to write hymns and religious cantatas for performance in the church.

Wotthehell, it's a job....

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 07:09 PM

The art works attributed to imaginary friends, from Michelangelo to Bach might still have existed without the glory bit, because in every artist or artiste, there is vanity.

There is also the overriding need to make a living. Dissing religion didn't go down too well in the golden age of art (heheh) when your patrons were, more likely than not, somewhat of the cloth.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 03:58 PM

""Mudcat now needs to warn visitors that its threads contain offensive posts unsuitable for children.""

So, at what age is the typical person coming to Mudcat? I suspect few under age 40 ish and above. Many will not be around in 20 to 30 years, making the long term prognosis of Mudcat uncertain.

Quite possiblt the disclaimer is a marketing ploy designed to lure in younger folks, who tend to flock to websites containing such warnings. If so, good thinking Max:)

Good luck with that - who knows, there may be more Mudcat Rap topics emerging, versus folk discussions,in the not so far away future.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 02:27 PM

Oh, of course. Ever the epitome of urbane courtesy himself, isn't he just!

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 01:20 PM

Methinks Monsieur Musket's slight fit of pique there is engendered by his quite reasonable offense at the usual offensive things said previously by the usual suspects.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Stu
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 12:54 PM

"In other words, superstition inhibits and restricts discovery and for that, is a stain on civilisation."

Some of the earliest palaeontologists, naturalists and other earth scientists were clergymen and their contribution to science is still relevant today. Some were quite brilliant, such as William Buckland who was Dean of Westminster, a quite brilliant palaeontologist and a man who wanted to eat his way through the entire animal kingdom. Not only that, but Buckland recognised that the idea the flood laid down the strata we see around us today was total rubbish.

Religion only inhibits discovery if it's followers are too stupid to see beyond their own delusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 12:34 PM

Not sure I agree. Children about only people silly old Mr M-M's posts might be fit for, wouldn'tcha say?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 10:56 AM

Mudcat now needs to warn visitors that its threads contain offensive posts unsuitable for children.
Shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 10:49 AM

Ho Ho ! Jolly good wheeze this hating of gay people what?

With Michael weighing in, the sneering hatred of gay people and the irrational fear of Muslims seems to be affecting the same nasty people.

As neither of them claim to be Christians though, at least their non fitness for purpose is little more than a personality disorder. Christians have a choice to be associated with bigotry or not.

Interestingly, I was reading an article by David Attenborough the other day where he was celebrating the 17th and 18th century scientists who felt that just because the bible and the local vicar (second son usually , too thick for the army) opposed scientific discovery, that was no reason to not question and observe.

In other words, superstition inhibits and restricts discovery and for that, is a stain on civilisation.

Me? Fully agree. The art works attributed to imaginary friends, from Michelangelo to Bach might still have existed without the glory bit, because in every artist or artiste, there is vanity.




As the worm seems fascinated by how gay men may or may not enjoy sex, I can assure him that very few gay men would be interested in whether he fucked his wife up the arse. statistically, two things to note. Less gay people have penetrative sex than heterosexual people. (Larger percentage of celibate partnerships.) More women receive anal sex than men.

That said, I wonder if Akenaton looks at men and women and thinks of their private life in the same way and with the same fascination as he does men and men? Dirty little grubby pervert.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 09:15 AM

""We could always check out whether he was any good at graffiti. :-)""

From what I have seen recently, if we did that, -right or wrong, it would likely lead us to believe that the Nethanderal walks amongt us and uses spray paint.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 08:55 AM

We could always check out whether he was any good at graffiti. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 07:54 AM

""Neanderthals and Humans May Have Had Sex for Millennia: Study:

Neanderthals went extinct in Europe about 40,000 years ago, giving them millennia to coexist with modern humans culturally and sexually, new findings suggest.""




Neanderthals in the news 

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 07:43 AM

""In 2003 a groundbreaking historical genetics paper reported results which indicated that a substantial proportion of men in the world are direct line descendants of Genghis Khan.""

It's unlikely they lived together or bred with Genghis, given that 750 years has passed, since this notable (but deadly) historic figure passed. Were the genetics folks wrong on this one too? Something to consider.







Gengis Khan 

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Stu
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 07:30 AM

"Not having all the transitionals is unavoidable"

Every fossil is a transitional fossil, and we have some very good resolution on many lineages and of course there will always be missing parts of any lineage for many reasons.

"but any doctor or DNA test would show clearly the many differences."

We (caucasians, asians) do share some DNA with neanderthals as well as other human lineages, which means we lived together and bred with them too.

I actually agree with Pete on this one. Stick him in a suit and you'd be hard pressed to see anything but a stocky bloke with a big hooter.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 05:30 AM

Aye it's ferr pit mah gas in a peep..eh Michael?   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 05:05 AM

It's that brilliant intellectuality of Mr Mouthie-Mather's arguments that carries all that conviction, isn't it? How can anyone fail to be absolutely convinced by such supreme logic & rationality! Lo, we are in the presence of a master of the infallible and incontrovertible! Bow down before its total conviction and cease the vain endeavour to disagree with a word of such faultless disputation.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 03:57 AM

"If The Church of England can say the bible is bollocks regarding men being superior to women and voting to allow female bishops, then the only thing blocking seeing gay people as equal is bigotry because they can ignore their medieval translations of fairy stories when they conflict with society's expectations if they wish."

You are getting confused again Ian, in conflating the issue of women bishops and homosexuality.....as far as I can see, the church has no problem with homosexuals as people, but sees their sexual behaviour in a negative light. Many people inside and outside the church see this behaviour as an extremely unhealthy perversion.

Personally, I am yet to be convinced, but a neighbour from Inverary(funnily enough), suggested that "if it was a perversion fifty years ago, do they do it differently now?"

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 02:53 AM

Yeah Keith. He loves gays. In the same way I love my pet dog. He supports and condones discrimination of gay people. You can't have it both ways.

A hospital chaplain in Lincoln married his partner last year and now has a husband. He applied last month for a similar post in Nottinghamshire and wasn't able to take up his post because of the reference he needed from the diocese and the Bishop of Southwell refused to recognise his position as a qualified vicar on the grounds he had married his lover.

Sick or what?

Why doesn't Welby sack the fucker? He's a disgraceful old bastard. (Ed told me to say it like it is, but when it comes to bigotry and discrimination, I need no egging on thank you. )

If I were a Christian I would be questioning the values my leaders wish me to associate with.

If The Church of England can say the bible is bollocks regarding men being superior to women and voting to allow female bishops, then the only thing blocking seeing gay people as equal is bigotry because they can ignore their medieval translations of fairy stories when they conflict with society's expectations if they wish.

Blocking a chaplain's job application on the grounds of being married is awful. The only good news is that the bishop where he is now cannot affect his present job, which he still has. (The stipulation in the regulations under The Health and Social Care Act 2008 affect recruitment with regard to references and professional registration at time of recruitment. Unless he is "struck off" by the church, they can't stop him in existing employment.)

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 10:37 PM

Voila!

And scroll down. I think a Neanderthal would tend to stand out a bit in a crowd, even with a shave and in a suit.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 02:48 PM

".. jerky idea.."

My! That looks pretty judgmental! *grin*

Not having all the transitionals is unavoidable. Having a random few is merely an 'inconvenience' in most cases, as we can learn a huge amount from seeing how much they have changed.

"... but apart from this being, again, an appeal to authority and numbers, ..."

I will say this for the last time. That is a flawed, inaccurate interpretation of what "appeal to authority" actually means. You cannot fairly co-opt the agreed use of a technical term in logic in order to falsely use it for your own viewpoint. I am not sure whether you just misunderstand, or whether you are intentionally ignoring the meaning. READ THIS!


"radio carbon?.....found in things supposedly too old to be detectable!"

I made the point that radio carbon IS quite accurate back to Neanderthal times...and it does date Neanderthals as much older than you wish to grant. Even Utzi the 'ice man' is older than you wish to accept.READ THIS!

"neandertals.....give him a shave and a suit and you wouldn't notice him on a city street....just another human. "

Nonsense! He resembles a 'few' humans-because he WAS related to them by a distant line... but any doctor or DNA test would show clearly the many differences.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 02:40 PM

Christian churches and homosexuality 

With fear of igniting a homosexual discussion, where prejudices pop up, I link an interesting Wiki site that gives some organized religious groups take on homosexuality. (I cant vouch for its accuracy nor whether it is up to date-also,note that there has been some division on official church stances, which is not likely represented).

I link it only because of the Musket and keith discussion, in case it may be of some use in sorting things out.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 02:31 PM

being as your question was not couched in mockery, bill, here are a few thoughts. the inerrancy relates to the original writings by the bible authors. these were written in Hebrew , koina greek and some Aramaic. every version since has some variations and therefore mistakes. these however do not amount to a major problem , and don't affect the main teachings of most Christian churches.
as far as interpretation of the bible is concerned, context is everything....is it historical narrative...poetry...wisdom literature. ....symbolism/visions. in addition there may be accounts organized chronologically or topically, or from a certain viewpoint.
certain laws were applicable to ancient Israel that were not applicable to new testament gentile believers, but sometimes do carry through when for instance they are moral issues. but the rituals, animal sacrifices, and what may seem like odd laws in ancient Israel were for that period before Christ.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 02:29 PM

I can not find that survey you quoted Musket.
Can you help please?

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 01:51 PM

perhaps he was one of those mentioned by musket.....Christian but don't believe it !...according to secular society survey.
perhaps , ed, I should have qualified....what [ I ] see clearly taught in scripture. in the case of gen 1, even liberal Hebrew scholars are in no doubt that it teaches creation in 6 days. other texts can also be given that corroborate that, eg exodus 20 v 11.
it was only as Darwin gained acceptance that some tried to reinterpret what had formerly been a plain reading.
it is true that some other teachings may be open to interpretation.

bill- whether I use "admitted" or "said" does not alter what he said , and my conclusion that he was aware, and stated, that transitionals were missing, and that he and eldridge developed the jerky idea to account for that lack of evidence. so for they, and you the absence of evidence becomes the evidence for the theory.
but I do note that you add the assertion that all the disciplines connect to support the theory. but apart from this being, again, an appeal to authority and numbers, have you never considered that it might be the dogma holy cow that pulls interpretations of the various branches into its compass ,while not considering sufficiently the counter evidences and interpretations.
some evolutionists, as for instance the Altenburg 16, have recognized the problems, but being true believers are looking for another mechanism.
which "data" are you asking me to comment on.
radio carbon?.....found in things supposedly too old to be detectable!
neandertals.....give him a shave and a suit and you wouldn't notice him on a city street....just another human.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 12:14 PM

Well, first we had "lusty big girls in navy knickers and pleated skirts with slightly-chapped upper inner thighs."mentioned in this thread.

Now its old men in frocks, that seem to be irking some folks, who do not even seem to subscribe to being in the Christian flock.

Only God knows what will come up next?

Speaking about oddities, my neighbour recently told me a guy at his work said he was against gay marriage. He then asked him why so, the co-worker said "because the Bible said marriage is to be between a man and a woman". When he further inquired what religion the co-worker belonged to, the puzzling reply was, " none, I am an Athiest, and dont believe in God".

Go figure! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 12:04 PM

Well first we had

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:49 AM

Gay folk could not be more welcome and loved in CofE, and we have many gay priests and bishops.

From your link Musket,
"Welby condemned homophobia and said, "to treat every human being with equal importance and dignity is a fundamental part of being a Christian." He shared his particular concerns about the devastating impact of homophobia on gay teenagers, and reiterated the importance of a loving approach.

Welby said that he has been wrestling with the issue of protecting Christians abroad while still having a loving approach to gay Christians for a long time, but stressed the very real dangers that he had personally experienced."

Keith says The Archbishop doesn't condemn gay people. He does
Your own link says you were wrong and I was right.
He does not condemn gay people.
He loves them.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:16 AM

By the way, Keith says The Archbishop doesn't condemn gay people. He does.

He refuses to chan ge the church's stance on gay people because in his view, it would make life difficult for some people in some other countries.

Well done Mr Welby. It must have taken ages to come up with an excuse to defend bigotry.

I fact, just for Keith, who is incapable of debating, he won't listen to any views unless you show that it is exactly the same as something you read via google, as he does.

I thought that for once, I would do it, just for him.

Archbishop makes excuses for hating gay

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 10:58 AM

Christianity offends by it's nature. Old men in frocks telling others how to live their lives?

I'm neither shallow nor vulnerable enough. Are you?



I notice our professional "offended as a Christian" has weighed in. Hey Keith! Which is right? The bible or women bishops?

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Stu
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 05:50 AM

"...when something is clearly taught in scripture I take that as a certainty"

On what grounds? How do you judge any statement taken from scripture as being a certainty? Any other Christians on this thread want to chime in on this one as well as Pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 05:03 AM

the Archbishop of Canterbury might be grateful for it. He condemns gay people at present

No. He does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 03:47 AM

Why pussy-foot around Musket, why not just say it the way you feel it, regardless of who (what well-intended Christian) you may offend?
:)

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 03:43 AM

Oops somehiw my last post was sent before completion.

What my intent was to show an example, through convenient interpretation of the Bible, (Curse of Ham) that slavery was justified by some Christian groups, I suspect for economic gain. This was later reinterpreted, because of pressure to halt slavery from society.

The mormon example was to show how they changed their anti-black policies,which were under oressure through a simple revelation. This riute may have been a much easier route for the Anglicans to allow greater equality for women in that church.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 03:39 AM

Mind you, one interpretation of the bible is consistent and gaining ground, especially in the last hundred years.

It's all bollocks.

(An excellent opinion poll the other year commissioned by The Secular Society. They asked people if they were Christian and then asked if they believed in god. Less than a quarter of those considering themselves Christian actually have a superstitious delusion.)

Delusion isn't a term of contempt by the way. I just can't think of a term of reference other than that for having your mind fucked with.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 03:30 AM

Latter Day Saint movement

Main articles: Blacks and the Latter Day Saint movement and Blacks and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

After the death of Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) taught that Black Africans were under the curse of Ham, although the day would come when the curse would be nullified through the saving powers of Jesus Christ.[63] In addition, based on his interpretation of the Book of Abraham, Brigham Young believed that as a result of this curse Negroes were banned from the Mormon Priesthood.[64] In 1978 then LDS president Spencer W. Kimball said he received a revelation that extended the Priesthood to all worthy male members of the LDS Church.[65]

See also is interesting that black slavery was justified (for economic and othervreasons) by many Christian groups because of a concocted Biblical interpretation of the Curse of Ham. Since slavery is not acceptable any longer, the curse Bible reference has been conveniently reinterpreted.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 03:04 AM

Now we seem to be drifting back to the actual thread debate.

Up till now, The Church of England had said women can't be bishops because god said they can't, it's in the bible.

Now, after a democratic vote on equality, the bible seems to be saying the exact opposite.

Funny how the church had to make itself look even more ludicrous and irrelevant in order to bring itself up to the decent standards society expects.

(If anyone wishes to find a bit saying gay dudes have the same rights as anyone else, the Archbishop of Canterbury might be grateful for it. He condemns gay people at present so not to upset his branch offices in parts of Africa.)

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 08:54 PM

I'm curious, Pete... in regard to Don Firth's point... do you accept the entire Bible..(King James, I presume) as inerrant *word of God*? Or just the old testament? Or just Genesis?
Many books of the King James Bible are close to just poetic expression or literary analogy. Others are hardly more than the writer's version of certain historical references. Do you treat ALL of the bible as "inspired" word of God? Even those who do not agree with each other or, as suspected, were 'selected' for inclusion by the scholars who compiled this version?

Many thousands of books have been written and much research has been done to compare dates, places and people mentioned to known history, and there is less agreement among scholars on that than on the details of evolution.

The facts are important, no matter where they lead.