Racist songs .... arghhhh!

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 10:34 PM

Don, the only song in your list that I recognize is Hog-Eye Man and I must know a more English version than is on the DT, as the offending line in the chorus of the one I know is "Railroad navey with his hog-eye". It is no problem to drop the one racially offensive verse without changing the intent of the song and still enjoy a rollicking shanty.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Chet W.
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 10:25 PM

Good answers all above, in my opinion. As far as performing these songs, there is no one answer. First I would ask the individual why they would want to perform a song they find objectionable; there are plenty of other songs, and an infinite opportunity to create new ones. If they object to the mere existence of the song, that has been well discussed above. One approach that usually is not good is looking for a replacement for the one offending word. The N word is often replaced by words such as "preacher" or more recently, in an effort to be historically and socially correct, "worker". In the case of "The Year of Jubilo" we used to take the latter course and found that it sounded like a communist Mayday anthem, so we created the following last verse:

On Mayday all the workers gather out on the old Red Square, They celebrate the Revolution, there'll be no hard times there, They raise a toast to Marx and Lenin while they tear their statues down, There's going to be a big revival when the Baptists come to town. (cho) The massa run, ha ha, the workers push and shove, There's going to be a great day coming in the year of Gorbachuv.

If there is a song that I really like but it is inappropriate for whatever reason I have no problem with substantial changes. An example is a song I've done many times at weddings, "The Water is Wide", but not before leaving out the parts about love growing cold etc. Some songs, however, really do seem to have no place in a performance today, like "It's a shame to beat your wife on Sunday (because there's plenty of time the rest of the week)". Performing songs like that at all would be a hateful thing to do, and performing them for people who would like them even worse. So maybe there are some songs that should be left silent as historical leftovers, but, again, there's lots of songs.

Target, take the advice above. It is good advice.

Chet

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 10:22 PM

I think Willie-O explained it best, that we can't pretend parts of our history never existed. I've heard people do songs with currently offensive terms in an historical context. "This is what people sang back then." Me, I couldn't get through any song with the word "nigger" in it without flinching. Another option is to change songs to be less offensive - that's why "Hog-Eye Man" is still sung, with "navvy" as the "N" word. It's one thing for a black chanteyman from some time in the past to sing "nigger," and another for a modern day white folkie to do it.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 10:18 PM

Hi Don, The same shanty man said, after a performence of the "Chinee Bumboatman" by the British ex tug boat man Shanty Jack, "We may not do 'em correct here but we sure do 'em right". Change some of the words when singing it if you like (in some cases you'd better) but don't cleanse so it's intent disappears.
Welcome to Mudcat, Target, we've discussed this same topic a number of times over the years & the thought that it gets rehashed every so often I'd say reflects the concern of those who frequent this site as well as yourself. Barry

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Don
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 09:37 PM

Long ago I asked a question about singing songs I considered questionable. The gentleman I asked was, perhaps, chief shanty man at the Mystic Seaport. "Hog Eye Man", "Desolation Island" and "Year of Jubilo" (a.k.a. "Kingdom Coming") are tunes I had doubts about.

His opinion was, "There are some songs that should never be sung for purposes of entertainment."

I liked the concept; succinct, clear and stated in a non-hostile way.

Whaddaya think?

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Dale Rose
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 09:21 PM

I thought of that recording of The Bonnie Blue Flag, a Confederate Civil War song, for those less familiar with U S history. It is on THE EARLIEST NEGRO VOCAL QUARTETS (1894-1928) Document DOCD 5061 by The Old South Quartette, probably recorded in the range of 1909-1928.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 09:19 PM

Bok, Trickett & Muir once sang a song entitled "The Middle Class Life is the Best of All"....and to end the introduction, Ed Trickett leaned up to the mic and said..."You don't have to believe everything you sing!"..........so it is with racist, etc., songs; part of the reason for singing them in certain contexts is to say..."this is how it once was"

Taste and 'awareness' of your audience, and the manner of presentation should take care of the issue, though being totally PC is a little trendy these days, and you can never please everyone...

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Dale Rose
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 09:00 PM

A good place to check out is Brown University's African American Sheet Music 1850-1920. I would suggest reading About The Collection first.

As Metchosin suggests, they reflect a different time. Don't forget that many of these were written by black (colored, to use the polite term of the time) authors. To give just one example, Gussie L Davis, noted for The Baggage Coach Ahead and Just Set A Light (aka The Red and Green Lights) also wrote When They Straighten all the Colored People's Hair (first line: Oh, you jolly little nigger, you make a funny figure) and When I Do The Hoochy-coochy In The Sky Coon Song. There are many, many other examples.

I know of a recording of The Bonnie Blue Flag by a black quartet, though I can't remember the name of the group at the moment.

Pay attention to the words sung by any number of black string bands or blues musicians ~~ you'll hear the so called N word frequently. Or for that matter, listen to the language of many (not all) blacks today.

In the Army at Fort Leonard Wood, 1956, our colored first sergeant used the term nigger more than once, though he sometimes qualified it by saying that there were white niggers just the same as there were black ones.

Do understand that I am not supporting a racist view here, just trying to add a little to the historical picture of a past time.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Willie-O
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 08:51 PM

Please don't feel you're a target, you are welcome to express your feelings here.

This is a debate that has been going around /n/ around for years. Basically the larger consensus in the traditional music community (I'll go out on a limb here and speak for all) is that you can't change history, you can't choose the way things were, only the way they are. We can't ignore the seamier aspects of our history and culture by pretending they didn't exist, and some of this material has real value. It's there for performers and scholars to examine and use. I find that some songs have an essential human essence to them that transcends the usage of terms which may be derogatory now. Even if you hold a Poetic Licence, you cannot mess too much with them without destroying them. (Then again, some songs are not worth singing--but we may not agree on which ones.)

If you're a performer, you already know that not every song is suitable for every audience. For example, I like singing "Get Up And Bar the Door" (look it up, aka "John and Joan Blount") because I think it's got a very clever usage of irony, especially in the ending. But I wouldn't sing it at a women's shelter benefit, because after all it's about a home invasion and implied rape. You might not want to sing it at all, or you might leave out or change the second last verse. (If its a listening audience, I just usually apologize in advance for not being PC) Point is, it's a performer's choice, you or I can choose to do it this way or that way. But I want to see as many versions as I can of a song like this, so I can decide what are the strongest parts, and what can be left out (usually because it's redundant and too long rather than offensive).

In particular, when a song has a known author--Stephen Foster, say, or Henry Clay Work--that person wrote a specific set of words. If you want to change the parts you don't like when you sing it, that's fine--but it's now "Stephen Foster as adapted by So And So".

Also particularly a problem in the nautical songs...sailors were not altar boys or New Left multiculturalists, and the music reflects this very strongly. What they sang is mostly not what you learned in Grade Five Music. If you're into this stuff seriously, you're going to have to compromise something, either your historical credibility, or current political sensibilities. It's a fine line. No wonder people write their own songs these days.

Getting off soapbox. Someone else's turn.

Bill

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Banjer
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 08:45 PM

Oh, there have been some HEATED discussions about this subject. I echo the advice of marcelloblues, DROP IT! Keep in mind that folk music traditionally deals with the full spectrum of the human condition. It would not be right to not allow songs from certain periods or of certain subjects just because they may not meet with favor in some circles.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 08:14 PM

The songs you are referring to are usually historical in context. That was the mind set of the past and if we expunge them from the collective memory, the ugliness of the past will most likely repeat itself. They serve as valuable reminders and lessons. Yeah its ugly but don't forget it! There are those among us, who would forget the holocaust. History should be based on truth not wishful thinking and expediency.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 08:12 PM

Modifying history to suit to current dogma is Big Brothers favorite thing and the term politically correct was coined by Joseph Stalin.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 08:08 PM

The songs you are referring to are usually historical in context. That was the mind set of the past and if we expunge them from the collective memory, the ugliness of the past will most likely repeat itself. They serve as valuable reminders and lessons.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: marcelloblues
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 08:03 PM

drop it! in slang, from Rome: "accanna"

Subject: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: a target
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 07:56 PM

The list of songs on this site are is amazing! The respondants on this message forum are most helpful! I have one problem - that is, some of the songs are downright racist, insulting, and degrading. I stumbled across one "nigger" song and a few "jew" songs. I'm pretty open-minded as a rule, but I wonder if these songs have a place on this site. I don't think so!