BS: Queen Mother

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 08:19 AM

"While Germany made its way into Poland and Czechoslovakia, still nothing - " peace in our time" right up to the point when there was no alternative."

Fair dos re the earlier appeasement policy but it is simply not true to say that Britain did nothing about the German invasion of Poland though! Both Britain and France had sworn to assist Poland. Germany invaded on the 1st Sept and received an ultimatum from Britain to withdraw. When that was ignored Britain declared war on Germany on the 3rd Sept as did France as well as Canada, New Zealand, Australia and South Africa. They may not have had the ability to evict the Germans from Poland but they went to war over the issue which is pretty major! Certainly compared with the actions of others! The Soviets themselves invaded Poland and only made war on the Germans when they themselves were attacked! The US sat on their hands militarily and only actively joined the war against Germany when Hitler declared war on the US after Pearl Harbour. I think we have to keep the knocking Britain's lack of action thing in persepctive!

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 08:18 AM

Jim, they were not "criminalised" and I doubt that MI5 really was responsible for your dad's employment problems.

It is true that MI5 monitored those who went.
Many were communists and believing in revolution they posed a threat to our democracy just like the fascists.
Remember that from 1939 to 1941 British communists were in league with Hitler.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 08:15 AM

One man's educated idiot is another man's genius.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 07:56 AM

==I don't believe educated idiots should have any place in the running of any country
Jim carroll==
,..,
"Vapours" or not? -- debatable. But it is an established fact that, to Jim, 'educated' is a term of abuse. He has used it hostilely of me on more than on occasion; and even, IIRC, withdrawn it apologetically once or twice. What that says of his mindset, might be matter for some contemplation.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 07:51 AM

The Daily Mirror 'right wing'?
Don't think so, Derrick!

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 07:46 AM

The queen was seven at the time?

Aristotle said give me the child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 07:45 AM

"Inconclusive" sums up the matter quite well I think."
By the right wing press it does - the rest seems to be ignoring it.
So it's really down to the evidence of the film and the past record of Eddie the Nazi-lover - and common sense of course.
You will have to decide from your own particular stance - I've said where I stand, and why
Your turn.
By the way - Britain and 13 other Western countries were so strapped for cash after W.W.1. that they were able to send troops and men into Russia in 1922 to help The Whites crush the new Soviet Government.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 07:30 AM

"Even the right wing press - The Sun, the Mirror and the Telegraph, are treating the suggestion as inconclusive."

"Inconclusive" sums up the matter quite well I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 07:21 AM

If the Queen does another Nazi Salute let me know about it. Until then...she was 7 and it didn't even have it's eventual context. Not news.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 07:11 AM

"Britain was still reeling and destitute from the previous war, "
Britain was in a position to prevent German re-armament and to help prevent the rise of fascism - instead, it looked upon Germany as "the bulwark against Bolshevism"
" Indeed, it was the sort of thinking which fits with Britain's WWI Prime Minister, Lloyd
George's statement to the House the following year: "...in a very short time, perhaps in a
year, perhaps in two, the conservative elements in this country will be looking to
Germany as the bulwark against Communism in Europe........Do not let us be in a hurry
to condemn Germany. We shall be welcoming Germany as our friend." (Commons,
Nov,28, 1934"
"Thousands went from Britain to fight the fascists and they were not "criminalised.""
And thousands were.
My father returned from Spain, having been wounded and imprisoned, to find that he had received an MI5 record as "a premature anti-fascist"
He was an ordinary volunteer not an activist, not an officer - just an ordinary foot soldier whose only political activities had been confined to the demonstrations against Mosely's Blackshirts.
When he applied for work, he found he had been blacklisted on the instructions of a security agent who had visited his former employer.
When he applied for work, he found that his name had been circulated among potential employers in the area.
He ended up becoming a navvy - we saw little of him until he finally left the road - I was 9, my sister was 6.
"You do that by studying both and deciding which is the most plausible."
It appears that is what is happening in the press - the English Times, this morning reports the film as showing an "apparent Nazi salute" - there is no mention of a lip-reader nor any suggestion of another interpretation.
Even the right wing press - The Sun, the Mirror and the Telegraph, are treating the suggestion as inconclusive.
"Jim Carroll is having the vapours it seems!!!"
Bozo no Brain is apparently choosing to snipe from the undergrowth.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 06:54 AM

Mr Red,
Did you mean Godwin's Law?

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 06:50 AM

What could Britain do t prevent the rise of fascism in Germany and Italy?
Did any country in the world do more than Britain?
No, so that is not a fair criticism.

We were ill-prepared for war in 1939
Yes we were, and even more so at the time of Munich, because the Left persuaded us to disarm.

But still we made a stand in 1939, and in 1940 stood alone against them.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 06:46 AM

We are in danger of invoking Godwinson's Rule - given the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 06:31 AM

Jim, I must admit that the International Brigades returnees to Britain were not criminalised. They were not always treated well elsewhere. But this country did sit on its hands during the rise of fascism, Keith. We were ill-prepared for war in 1939 and there was the infamous attempt at appeasement. The mistreatment of Jews was well known well before the war started.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 06:21 AM

A careful response to several somewhat half-baked and ill-considered points.

I just showed that some of that" "careful response" was bollocks, and much of the rest of it was too.
How was Britain supposed to stop the rise of Fascism in Germany and Italy?

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 06:17 AM

International Brigade Memorial Trust,
"They arrived back in Victoria Station on the evening of the 7 December 1938 where they were met by a huge crowd to welcome them back home, including amongst others, a number of senior members of the British labour movement, including Clement Attlee, the leader of the Labour Party.

For many of the veterans of the International Brigades, the struggle against fascism would continue. Many (where they were accepted) fought in the Second World War and many joined the International Brigade Association, which continued to press for a return to democracy in Spain."
http://www.international-brigades.org.uk/content/returning-home

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 06:15 AM

The establishment always finds an expert to support them.
Of course they do,just as their opponents do to support them.
It is up to you which you believe.
You do that by studying both and deciding which is the most plausible.
You should try not to let your prejudices colour the matter.
What is my point?
I am questioning whether or not your argument is balanced or biased.
My personal take on the whole thing is the Nazi issue was resolved 70 years ago in our favour,there are more pressing problems to be dealt with today.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 06:13 AM

I was responding to the inane accusation there that Jim was "having the vapours".

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 06:11 AM

Au contraire, it was the best post in the thread so far. A careful response to several somewhat half-baked and ill-considered points.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 06:08 AM

While Germany made its way into Poland and Czechoslovakia, still nothing

When Germany (and Russia) invaded Poland, Britain gave them an ultimatum to withdraw or war would be declared.

Just as Britain did over the invasion of Belgium in 1914.

Britain did not have to do that, and many voices were raised against.
Britain was still reeling and destitute from the previous war, and with every family still mourning someone who did not return from it.

they criminialised those who did by going off to fight in Spain
Not true.
Thousands went from Britain to fight the fascists and they were not "criminalised."

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 05:47 AM

Jim Carroll is having the vapours it seems!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 05:24 AM

"Are you not grateful for that Jim?"
Grateful for what exactly?
Every country did not have national leaders who were Nazi sympathisers - if they had, the outcome of the war would have gone
very differently.
The British establishment sat on its hands and watched Nazi Germany rise to power, while maintaining friendly relations with their leaders.
Not only did they do nothing to halt the rise of fascism in Europe, they criminialised those who did by going off to fight in Spain - Nazi Germany was able to try out its newly reconstructed Luftwaffe on the people of Guernica.
While Germany made its way into Poland and Czechoslovakia, still nothing - " peace in our time" right up to the point when there was no alternative.
It was the people of Britain who made the supreme sacrifice, not those who only stood and waited - and waited - and waited.
As news leaked out about the holocaust, members of the British society were preparing an alternative Government to welcome "Herr Hitler's victory - politicians were overheard describing the rumours of the gas chambers as "the lies of whingeing Yids".
Who an I grateful to - not these people, but the ones who went out and fought and sacrificed their lives - members of my family included.
"You are dismissing an expert because her opinion disagrees with yours"
I certainly am not - I am questioning how genuine or complete that report was - the establishment always conveniently manages find an expert in times of trouble.
Even her report has huge hole in it and admissions that not all could be read
What exactly is your point - wasn't the feller teaching the girl to salute a Nazi sympathiser - did we get him all wrong - did those straight arms and flat palms look like a wave to you???
Personally, I do not believe the whole of the Royal Family to be Nazi sympathisers (somme certainly where) - I don't know what or even if they think politically.
Given the times that the film was made and the fact that it was made and preserved, I find their behaviour distasteful - another nail in the coffin of Royalty, as far as I'm concerned.
I don't believe educated idiots should have any place in the running of any country
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 05:11 AM

according to sources I read, Edward went to Germany as a smoke-screen/fact finding mission. If you wanted to find out what was going on, would you make negative noises about a popular leader and go there? Or would you try subterfuge, and send a person who looked like he was ready to be your puppet?

In the world of politics, not to mention international politics, let alone dictators! Nothing is as it seems on the surface.

Hands up all those in favour of a puppet!



I'll get my yashmak..........

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 05:10 AM

Oswald Mosley was interned during the war as was Richard Reynell
Bellamy and most of the other blackshirts, it seems like other nazi sympathisers like Edward viii were more privileged.
I am sure Jim is and I recall that jim said some of his relatives fought in the war.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 05:06 AM

There is no reasonable doubt that the then Queen Consort had been fiercely anti-German since 1914, much more so than her husband's family. She kept using the H word until her death. However, this does not mean that she was pro democracy (- particularly abroad -); Hitler may have appeared as an improvement. Such feelings were widespread, also in France and in the USA (John F. Kennedy).

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 04:52 AM

Every country had Nazi sympathisers, including Ireland and USA.

The difference was that Britain and its Empire was prepared to confront and make a stand against them, even though still reeling and destitute from the previous war, and with every family still mourning someone who did not return from it.

Are you not grateful for that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 04:26 AM

I only agree with GSS first post,less convinced about the second post.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 04:22 AM

I agree with GSS who posted while I was writing.
I don't think anybody including myself disagrees that Edward was a Nazi sympathiser, what the rest of the family thought is speculation.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 04:15 AM

on further reflection, I think the Quen Mother was keeping her options open ,she was allowing Edward to influence the children. but when the war came she had no alternative but to back churchill, which she then did whole heartedly, I come to that conclusion after seeing Jims posts about her prefernce for the appeasers rather than churchill.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 04:15 AM

Jim,
You missed a bit when you pasted my comment.

"That's the trouble with experts they are only right when they agree with you,rubbish otherwise."

Changes the meaning completely when you include the last word.
You are dismissing an expert because her opinion disagrees with yours as to what was said by the persons in the film.
Since your lip reading skills are superior to hers,tell us what is really being said.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 04:10 AM

Edward was definitely a nazi sympathiser.
The Queen Mother seems to have rallied against the nazis when the war started.
I find it a bit difficult to assess that photo, I reckon Edward was definitely trying to influence the children, perhaps The Queen Mother was keeping options open or perhaps she was casually trying to make light of the situation.
it is all speculation apart from the fact Edward was a nazi sympathiser.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 03:51 AM

If The Queen Mother sympathised at that time, she certainly changed her attitude come the war, refusing to go to Canada for safety and touring bomb sites, trying in the only way royalty know, to kept spirits up
.,,.
Indeed so. I had personal experience of this, as she & her husband, George VI, came to inspect the damage at my N London school, Garden Suburb, in 1940 when it was bombed out -- I experienced every child's dream of a few weeks with no school as a result! I have told here before the story of the big girl [ie about 12 when I was 8] who ran up behind the king & slapped him hard between the shoulders, tearfully explaining, when asked not-too-gently by the headmaster & the Mayor of Hendon what-the-hell she thought she was about, that "I only wanted to be able to tell people I'd touched the King!" That's how much security royalty needed in those days! Another thing I recall is a woman just behind me calling out "Good luck" as they walked by, and the king unhesitatingly turning towards her and saying "Thank you" most politely.

I am not a royalist exactly -- more an if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it-ist. But they had, & have, their virtues you know.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 03:31 AM

The past is another country.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: GUEST,Musket and his tuppence worth
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 02:31 AM

Fascinating debate. Some polarised views, some surprisingly reasonable either way.

In any event, the tabloid newspaper in question seems to have achieved what it set out to, judging by how some on here have extended the debate beyond a reflection of social attitudes in 1933. Bridge is unfortunately on the button by pointing out attitudes to the Nazis in that year. They had more in common with UKIP than Genghis Khan at that time in how newspapers reported life in Germany and Ribbentropp & co were fawning landed gentry by offering an alternative vision to communism.

On balance, I'm not sure this photo does anything to alter my opinions, as they are, on the role of a constitutional monarchy as a tool of democracy.

If The Queen Mother sympathised at that time, she certainly changed her attitude come the war, refusing to go to Canada for safety and touring bomb sites, trying in the only way royalty know, to kept spirits up. That in itself was a first for royalty.

Mind you Bridge, I have a nose for expensive wine myself but rather than set me off goose stepping or one of Michael's dances, I tend to sit giggling and farting after too much. Far more sociable.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jul 15 - 01:26 AM

My lovely and much younger than me wife looks after aged* and obsolete me a treat -- why, here she comes right now [0615] to bring me my daily brekkie of crumpets and marmalade and tea. If there's one thing I do not lack it's a good nurse-equivalent. So keep your crass and jejune animadversions for someone who might appreciate them, my dear little infants. Play your games **without any further assistance** from your elder-and-better!

And hope it keeps fine for you...

≈M≈


*83-&-counting
**No promises, mind!

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 07:37 PM

"That's the trouble with experts they are only right when they agree with you,rubbish"
]You have any arguments with what I say, feel free to put me right
Calling it rubbish proves nothing.
The Royal's family history is a matter of - well, history really.
The salutes were salutes, not waves - look at the photographs.
Uncle Ted and his lady were mates of Hitler.
What's rubbish about that, or will calling it rubbish make it go away?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 07:02 PM

Don't let Michael get to you, Backwoodsman. He's yesterday's man personified, lacking only a good nurse.

Here's the thing about the royals, stuff you need to consider before you decide whether or not they're good eggs. First, they are at the very top of the pyramid of privilege. Second, they all live in very grand houses yet they do not know the meaning of the word "mortgage". Third, not a single one of them ever does an honest day's work. Oh yes, they get carted off in the most luxurious style possible, all at the taxpayers' expense, to foreign climes, where they wave unenthusiastically and condescendingly to "the natives", who were persuaded to buy cheap union jacks to wave back at them so that we can see on the news on the telly how "popular" the royals are. Fourth, Prince Charles is, by any standard you wish to apply, just about the biggest moronic buffoon in the nation. Yet he will most likely be our next "king". I mean, Jesus. Have we forgotten who he was shagging on his stag night fer chrissake? Not Diana, that's for sure! Finally, have you considered that, in order to visit their houses or lands, which were stolen from the people, you have to pay money? Money with her bloody face on it?

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 06:41 PM

Jim,
That's the trouble with experts they are only right when they agree with you,rubbish otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 06:25 PM

How long before you realise ALL political parties are liars

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 06:12 PM

Having to agree with a fair bit of what Primitive Tribesman says here. Even if in the past he has come across as a bit of a Blairite.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 06:01 PM

Michael, on this occasion i reckon backwoodsman has hit the nail on the head, he is extremely right bright,
and for your info one of my great grand fathers was chancellor of the exchequer in Disraelis government, Sir Michael Hicks Beach, and one of my cousins is Nicholas Hicks Beach, both of these characters were and are very good in making sure that in the first case the wealthy kept their dosh to the detriment of the majority of the enslaved people and in the second case they are fed a diet of sensation sex and scandal, Nicholas Hicks Beach being or having been a writer for eastenders,
religion used to be the opium of the people,now its eastenders coronation street and the royal family, this same royal family of which one of their menmbers EDWARD V111 appears to have been an admirer of hitler.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 04:49 PM

Likewise, I'm sure...

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 04:44 PM

Agreed. Sincerely hope it keeps fine for you in the backwoods. Adieu...

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 04:22 PM

No need to be rude, Michael, you know little, if anything, about me, so your attempts at provocation are completely meaningless and ineffectual, AFAIC.

FYI, I was very well-educated, both academically and professionally, and I understand democracy perfectly well, but I also am sufficiently well-educated and intelligent enough to know that politicians are well-versed in how to press the right buttons to persuade elements of the electorate to vote the way they wish them to vote - frequently nothing to do with reason and information, but rather emotion and mis-, dare I even say dis-, information. Witness the kind of tactic used so frequently by the mouthpiece of the Tory party, The Daily Mail, in which they seek to sow seeds of discontent over e.g., immigration (scrounges, job-stealers, etc.) or Muslims (terrorists, child-abusers, yadda, yadda), the Labour Party (caused a world-wide financial crash, blah-blah-blah) by, at best, distortions of the truth and, at worst, bare-faced lies.

You, too, know this perfectly well, but it suits your purpose in this exchange to pretend otherwise. Disingenuousness personified, sir.

On this basis, I see little purpose in engaging with you further.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 03:56 PM

I'm so glad to see sutch a nice 2 sided debate as usual!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 03:55 PM

EDWARD VIII was a nazi sympathiser that is crystal clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 03:45 PM

Oh, yes, sorry: I did use that phrase in another post a bit further back. Apologies. My other point remains, however...

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 03:01 PM

...And whatever the reasons that you claim the referendum rejected any form of PR, the fact is that it did; by democratic one=person-one-vote choice of the entire electorate; who, according to you, must therefore be a load of sheep who vote at the combined bidding of party leaders protecting their own interests. Fine conception you have of democracy; it seems to be Vote As I Do Or It Shouldn't Count. Don't wish to appear rude; but I'm beginning to suspect that, when it comes to understanding what democracy is, you are just not right bright.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 02:55 PM

not 'most other members of this democracy' as you claimed.
.,,.
Those quote marks imply that I used these precise words. Where, BWM? I didn't; not in any context whatever. They don't even represent a concept that would have fitted into any part of any postulation of mine.

If you're going to argue with me, then argue with what I wrote, intelligently read by yourself; and not with something you vaguely remember, without checking, that I might have written.

Otherwise continue communing with yourself...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Queen Mother
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 15 - 02:41 PM

And I'm not a Royalist either. But, on balance, I prefer a member of what we know as 'The Royal Family' as Head of State, rather than an elected career-politician, on the basis that the Queen or King is considerably less dangerous to the welfare of the nation than a President.

Camermoron and his dreadful cronies are destroying the lives of the poor and disadvantaged as things are - imagine the damage they could do if it was President Camermoron. I'd slit my wrists.