BS: should UK leave the EU?

Subject: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 08:42 AM

i voted against going in in '74.

after a bit as European travel became more prevalent. i got to rather like being part of europe.

still, i think it would be great to tell the spanish fishermen to piss off.

have you any thoughts?

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:14 AM

yeah - for us skint musicians it's great to be able to buy bargain music gear and guitars from internet shops in Germany
without being clobbered for the extortionate additional vat and import duties.
that makes buying from the USA no longer affordable...

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:27 AM

Your answer seems to be a bit self-contradictory to me, PFR; do you want to stay or leave?

My answer -- yes please: sooner the better. Why should we stay in an organisation whose two main members, France & Germany, disagree about pretty well everything — except that they unite in a mutual hatred of us! Can't think why we ever joined.

Outoutoutoutout.....

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:51 AM

Well if Michael can give semi-daft and simplistic reasons for leaving, I'll do the same for staying. I don't want my new grandson to be called up for a war with Germany, just like I never got called up and my son never got called up. Plus I absolutely love the Mediterranean. Apart from that, tell the Spanish fishermen to bugger off and get a few other things sorted, such as paying farmers too much bloody money for producing either nothing, stuff we don't need or stuff we do need that's of rubbishy quality.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:54 AM

And there's nothing wrong with straight cucumbers. There's this convent....

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:54 AM

I consider myself a European.. I want to stay.

If I could, if I had money and mobility, I'd move off this petty insular restrictive little island
and live in Central Europe.
or Scandinavia, or the sunny Mediterranean...

So much choice and diversity over there on the other side of the bleak cold forbidding English Channel.

I'd vote to dam it at either end, drain it, and return us back to the mother mainland... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 10:14 AM

I love the Med too. Can't remember any sort of let or hindrance to my visiting it on multiple occasions in my long life; many before this incredible stinkeroo of a European folly was ever thought of.

What the piggi·poo·pooz do you imagine that has to do with it, Steve? & you have the all·fire copulatory nerve to accuse me of simplisticism!

Away you!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 10:30 AM

Michael, Germany does not hate us and does not want to see us go. The French are just jealous buggers who don't have a language you can sing in and who make inferior cheese.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 10:31 AM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 10:41 AM

I can prove it about the cheese. A few weeks ago I thought I'd try some Pie d'Angloys. I bought a lump and stuck it in the fridge. Next day Mrs Steve threatened divorce if I didn't remove it immediately. Damn stuff stunk out not just the fridge but the whole house, in spite of my triple-wrapping it in polythene bags. We could still whiff it 24 hours after its extirpation from the premises. Bloody French muck, coming over here and taking over our houses like that...

Mind you, it tasted bloody good...

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 10:45 AM

and what fuck GARLIC ? fs

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 10:54 AM

Many French cheeses are delicious — even be they surrender-monkeys during its consumption; and some even smell quite agreeable. Fear your concept of 'proof' maybe just an itsy-bitsy defificent on this occasion, eh, Steve?
Bring on the Camembert & the St-Agur & the Brie!

Mmmmmm. Slurp!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:07 AM

Here's a view from a Yank who visited Europe twice this past summer and whose wife is currently in Blighty:

Don't.

Do you really want to have your products go through customs when they leave the other end of the chunnel? Or do you want to go through customs and immigration whenever you vacation in the Med? Do you think the Northern Irish want the customs hassle when they go to the Republic...and vice-versa? Scotland is stomping to leave the UK -- they would almost certainly go with the EU in that case and again bringing up the customs hassles.

Remember, the EU countries would pass business back and forth without let or hindrance but the UK could not. Since the UK was, in August 2015, a net importer (albeit from both EU and non-EU), are you certain the game would be worth the candle?

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:14 AM

Now I think I've more than established I'm no nasty petty little englander xenophobe nationalist..

But when it comes to cheese.. CHEDDAR rules the Universe....!!!!!!!

... where I come from there's eff all else to be proud of apart from our cider and cheese!!!... 😜

[.. and... errrr.. didn't the French or Romans invent Cider...???]

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: G-Force
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:28 AM

Definitely leave the EU. And leave the Eurovision song contest while we're at it.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:28 AM

"Your answer seems to be a bit self-contradictory to me, PFR; do you want to stay or leave?"

The present situation makes it very easy to be ambivalent about the EU.

I was in favour in 74. Since the Iron Curtain came down I think that expansion has been too rapid but at the moment I feel that the balance is still on the side of staying in.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:32 AM

I have recently come across a superb German cheese called (oddly) Montagnolo d'Affine. As for Brie, the finest I ever had was Sharpham's. Next best is Sainsbury's Somerset Brie which never fails to run everywhere. But Cheddar is the best. Sainsbury's are selling lumps of Wookey Hole cave-aged for £1.50. I've bought six lots.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: G-Force
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:34 AM

i voted against going in in '74. - Actually you didn't. You voted to leave what we'd already joined, without being consulted. And it was 1975, not 1974.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:39 AM

errmmm... yeah - I can see how I confuded some of the folks who adhere to more precise use of english language.

When I started my first post with "Yeah".. that was just a habitual idiosyncratic tic..
a positive affirmation of how wonderful life is being a European able to buy bargain gear from Thomann.de..

...

not "Yeah - let's leave the EU"... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:45 AM

Look at the people running the campaign to get out, and staying in seems a no brainer. Until you look at the people heading the campaign to stay in.

This cartoon in today's Guardian makes this point graphically.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:55 AM

Love the flavour of a good Cheddar, especially with a good sweet pickle like a Branston or some slices of not too strong raw onion; but texture can be deficient — tends to crumble too easily. We all have our tastes, fromagistically. A really good, moist, new piece of Emmental probably my fave, and good Brie or Camembert come close.
And of course I once made a record on the old Brewhouse label called Butter·&·Cheese·&·All.

But I personally, all drifts aside, would like to see us shake off the burden of being beholden to an onerously officious organisation with which I still feel we were unwise to get involved in the first place.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Stu
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 12:05 PM

"I bought a lump and stuck it in the fridge."

What did you do that for? Cheese should always be served at rom temperature and never chilled. How do you know you don't like French cheese if you can't take it properly.

Bloody rosbifs.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 12:09 PM

why does nobody ever complain about the fact that we are culturally, militarily and politically dominated by america? and there is not one single thing they can teach us about beer, cheese or football? i don't like the fact that europe is run as a cartel for free market capitalism but there is much to be gained from all the many vibrant and positive cultures of europe. workers of the world unite!

(err....apart from the independent scots, obviously)

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Johnny J
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 12:28 PM

It has many faults but, on balance, I would want to stay. Just as Scotland stayed in The UK.

We've done very so far not be swallowed up in the bigger whole and, despite what Farage and Co might argue, we have have been able to retain a great deal of our own autonomy and are still distinctively different. So too, incidentally is Scotland , Wales, NI, and England from each other!

"Definitely leave the EU. And leave the Eurovision song contest while we're at it."

My biggest issue with The EU was its rapid expansion but, at least, it's still not as cumbersome as the Eurovision song contest which even managed to have Australia in it this year!

Mind you, it was Britain under Thatcher and Major who did much to encourage the former Easter European states and others to join up. So, if it doesn't suit The Tories and their supporters now, they only have themselves to blame.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 12:38 PM

Remember, the EU countries would pass business back and forth without let or hindrance but the UK could not. Since the UK was, in August 2015, a net importer (albeit from both EU and non-EU), are you certain the game would be worth the candle?
If the UK is a net purchaser from Europe then even if we leave it will be in their interest to make buying/selling between the UK & Europe as easy as possible, or they're losing a large market.

Germany does not hate us and does not want to see us go.
Of course they don't. Apart from being a large market for their good, the UK is a net contributor to EU funds.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 12:40 PM

"yeah - for us skint musicians it's great to be able to buy bargain music gear and guitars from internet shops in Germany
without being clobbered for the extortionate additional vat and import duties.
that makes buying from the USA no longer affordable..."

Errrrrmmmmm, you pay VAT at whatever rate applies in the supplier's Member-State, PFR. All you avoid is import duty, which is around 4% on musical instruments and accessories, and the difference between the UK's VAT Rate and the Rate charged by the supplier.

I buy quite a lot of musical stuff from the US and I've yet to find an EC supplier who can beat the cost from the US. If you have, I'd appreciate a heads-up, I'm always up for saving a bob or two! 👍😎

The main drawback to buying from the US, AFAIC, is the long delay in delivery - one to three weeks usually.

And no, we most definitely should not leave the EC. We should get 100% on board, start to become a major player, and have some real influence to break up the 'Germany and France Mutual Benefit Society'.

IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 01:11 PM

yes you are right to correct me on my sloppy hasty typing,
I accept that.
But in principle, I still believe it's cheaper these days to buy low to mid budget semi pro gear from Europe.

I also used to buy a lot of [ too much] gear from USA about a decade ago..
Probably a more favourable exchange rate back then..??

But in recent years the deal breaker has been not just the VAT imposed on goods at this end;
but vat payable on the entire total including postage.
[plus Brit post parcel service helping themselves to a compulsory handling charge..]

..and delivery courier costs have sky rocketed since stricter USA security restrictions were enforced..???

BTW - I'm talking about 2 to 4 hundred $ guitars.


Obviously if anyone buys $4K luxury guitars from the states, the delivery costs will seem proportionately insignificant.
Which will still be a bargain compared to UK retail.


Also, what seems a petty & spiteful act of UK govt was to lower the amout allowable before VAT is charged
from something like previous £17ish to now £13ish
which no longer makes buying even smaller accessory purchases worthwhile..

Though happily, one recent exception..

Back in Feb I managed to get a brand new guitar from the states for total less than £400
while they were still 7 - 9 hundred here... 😎

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 01:30 PM

NO!

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 01:37 PM

ps... as far as I recall.. I'm sure Vat on guitars and FX pedals from USA was approx 20%.. ???

It used to work out something like this

eg.. approx - Guitar £150 + delivery & total VAT etc £40

Which used to mean I'd pay about 200 quid for a guitar costing about £300 or more retail here in UK.

Now the courier costs have more than doubled, which in turn inflates up the VAT total..
So no longer really worthwhile at my price level...

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 01:38 PM

Your all wrong about cheese of course. The further you get from Lancashire, the worse the cheese gets.

1. Lancashire
2. Cheshire
3. Wensleydale
4. Stilton
5. Cheddar, Gloucester and all the others that taste the same
6. Across the channel, Here there be dragons...

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 01:39 PM

Since the USA doesn't have a national VAT that doesn't work. They've got sales tax in various states, but that shouldn't be charged on an exprt to the UK ( though I'm not sure they always actually do adjust the price), and importa are liable to pay the full 20%. In fact it seems a bit hit and miss, and they tend not to charge it on small purchases. But they do on anything bigger. You get a note stuck through your front door, and pay the amount when you pick it up at the depot office.

But those kind of things aeen't significant in this choice. The deal breaker for me could be the TPPI.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 03:21 PM

First off I'm a Lancastrian so Lancashire cheese should be top of my list ............... however Lincolnshire Poacher and it's mature brother Poachers Imp are really sublime.

Then there's stuff I make myself !

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 04:30 PM

Oi, Stu, I bought the stuff several days before our Wednesday cheese night. If I hadn't put it in the fridge it would have walked out of the house! I always take cheese out half a day before we eat it and leave it unwrapped so that it can breathe. Crucial!

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 04:34 PM

I like a nice cheddar (Ivy's Vintage Reserve please) and a Stilton, but too many English cheeses are bland and dry. Some of the newly invented English blue cheeses are nice and some of the older ones too.

On the EU however, the social chapter and workers rights and EU discrimination law are all valuable things.

TTIP and free movement of capital are not. If we had a government that could opt out of the TTIP that the EUcrats are about to drag us into (despite about three and a half million signatures on a petition opposing it) I would seriously consider leaving the EU the right thing to do. If we had a government that could at a stroke re-impose exchange control, just as the bitch Thatcher abolished it I might also consider leaving the EU the right thing to do. But we haven't.

The first and most important thing to do is to get rid of the con-servatives.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:08 PM

As I understand it, once we are signed up to TTPI as part of the EU, then even if we get a government that wants to pull out, it can't. The only way out would be to leave the EU, or for all 28 governments in the EU to decide to leave the TTPI.

I'd like to see Labour make rejection of the TTPI a condition of fighting to stay in.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:38 PM

Green's Cheddar, Wookey Hole cave-aged Cheddar and Bath Blue, Richard. I bought some Bath Blue at Gloucester Services and it was past it. I bought some at the Fine Cheese Company shop in Bath and it was sublime. They do mail order. There are very few products about which I say hang the expense, but, with Bath Blue, hang the expense. Stilton rarely does it for me, but, and I kid you not, the best Stilton I've had in years was Tesco British Stilton. Not even a Tesco Finest either.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 08:30 PM

they wouldn't grant Lincolnshire the right to have exclusive use of the term Lincolnshire Sausage. that's mean.

Bloody champagne that nobody drinks. that's got to be made in the place champagne comes from.

I think the guys who run it are a bit sus.

and why don't they support US military action - ever - even when they are fighting absolute arseholes on our behalf. its not like the yanks didn't do us all the biggest favour in ww2. we will be for ever in their debt morally.

I can't get enthusiastic about the common market. On balance I wish we were out of it.

I like some things. we would never have got rid of corporal punishment in schools without them. they are more humane than we are.

But they are missing when its backs to the wall time. unsympathetic. like when we were going through shit over Northern Ireland. they couldn't get their heads round it. it was all yahboo sucks time.

did anyone in Europe help like Clinton did. he was a better ally. like wise this bloody mess over in Calais. This is the country that knocked the Paris riots on the head in three days. You can't tell me thay couldn't keep better order of the situation if they wanted to. but its easier to fuck us around.


then theres the business of the fishing. The spanish have fucked up the waters round their own coast, which once were as fecund as ours used to be before they got going with their environmentally idiot methods. okay not many of us fish any more. but is it intelligent to to let them continue in this idiotic way.

by all means drive on the same side of the road as everyone else. I'm all in favour of tokenism that costs us nowt. but I see a lot of downright hostility in the actions of our european partners.   doesn't anyone else?

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 03:42 AM

There's nowt like a nice bit of Sage Derby! When Sage Derby, or rather a Sage Cheddar masquerading as S-D, arrived on the cheese counters where I live in Germany, the reactions of shoppers was quite interesting- "Yeuch, green cheese-must be bad!" There was a similar reaction when I took a chunk to a party- by the end of the evening almost all of it had been eaten, to the accompaniment of comments like, "Hey, this cheese is really good!"

What 'hostility from our european partners'? Given the continueing demands from just about every british government for special conditions, exemptions, rebates etc. then it's hardly surprising that some european partners are feeling a little pissed-off with the UK. One should also bear in mind that UK ministries, particularly DEFRA, are very adept at re-translating texts from the EU to suit their prefered clientel/prejudices. Then of course there are the many EU financed/co-financed projects which, if left to HMG alone, would probably never have seen the light of day.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 05:08 AM

I've just found another reason to leave the EU. Compulsory telematics (spy boxes in private cars). But of course any con-servative government would want those too.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 05:33 AM

' Then of course there are the many EU financed/co-financed projects which, if left to HMG alone, would probably never have seen the light of day.'

i acknowledge the justice of what you're saying hereRichard. still don't you get the feeling with some places - the tories close down all the industry and then europe gives the town square a makeover.

it feels weird.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 05:43 AM

I did not put that argument - any more than I think that Scumeron offering to build new prisons in Jamaica is a just reparation for England's contributions to slavery.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 06:01 AM

Hi

I'm for staying in. Mind you I do have a second home in Spain.
Al I know what you mean about the Spanish fishermen. But we get the best of it when they land their catches there. Yummy

And as for cheese give me fresh Cheshire any time.( Although we do like French and Italian ones too)

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 09:18 AM

When it came to beating the Nazis, it was the Russians who did the heavy lifting. Al, but the gratitude for that evaporate pretty quickly. Not without good reason, but to some extent that applies to the Amaricans as well.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 02:04 PM

and when it comes down to fighting fascism all of europe should be ashamed at how we let down the spanish

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 03:07 PM

does anyone who supports uk leaving the european union have any worries about our being dominated by the usa?

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 03:13 PM

Not sure, achmelvich. Becoming the 51st state would be a worry for me but I am not sure whether it is a real possibility or not. Maybe someone better versed in international relations could advise?

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 03:19 PM

If we became a province of China - would that mean cheaper guitars and FX pedals...??? 😜

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 05:09 PM

if we became Americans we would all have the right to buy guns. it would be a whole new market for them. if they've sold each other 300 million guns - we could buy 60 million, one each.

it surprising they haven't suggested it.

no need to bother with the national health service - we wouldn't believe in socialised medicine.

sounds great!

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 05:31 PM

Achmelvich - yes, and yes, in that order. But right now TTIP will deliver further into the hands of feral US capitalism. It is a disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 07:14 AM

Yes definitely, it is a gigantic and expensive con.

Mr Farage for prime minister!

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 08:03 AM

Farage is a populist twanker, he is a political bankrupt.H

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 08:59 AM

Farage...thats a foreign name.

he's been snuck in by the enemies of the state .....probably under a lorry full of shite in Calais. they wouldn't notice an extra little lump of shite under the back axle.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:09 AM

Don't panic lads, only joking about PM.......but he WAS bang on about the EU and immigration.   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:12 AM

IT AINT ENGLISH ANYWAY, its SCOTTISH OR IRISH, send him back to where he came from,damn foreigner.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: banjoman
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 06:21 AM

I think we should look at the history of Europe. Both France and Germany have been trying to dominate Europe for a long time by military means (Napoleon/Hitler to name but two.)
Having those ideas of supremacy scotched, they now seek to achieve domination by political means (The common market/ EU ) They see the UK as a thorn in their side and pay little or no heed to our well being as a nation. The are happy to take 230 million pounds per day from us. Do we get that back in any form?
There may be some benefits of membership but they are far outweighed by the cost to us.
The sooner we get out the better. It may be difficult but worth the effort.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 07:04 AM

That is a very skewed view. The fact that we are a part of a very large trading bloc means economies of scale. Can you put a figure to that? Our net contribution (part of the deal is that the richest countries contribute the most) helps to improve the market in the poorer parts of Europe, which works to our benefit as well. How do you cost that? We can trade freely without tariffs. That would no longer be the case if we left, and we would no longer have any say in EU fiscal policies even though they would still affect us. It would cost us dear in terms of making our import-export trade with the EU far more expensive. The non-payment of tariffs must be factored in as a counter to your figure. The daily-money-down-the-drain UKIP argument is completely simplistic and fallacious. I'm a bloody long way from being an expert on these things, and I'm no defender of the EU's more egregious imbalances (I mean, what a profound mistake the euro was), but this much I think I sort of know. It's easy, and just a little facile, to quote the uncomplicated part, our daily/weekly/annual net money contribution, whilst ignoring those benefits to us that are a lot harder to put numbers to and that the ukippers hope we won't notice.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 07:07 AM

...but what have the Romans ever done for us?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 09:05 AM

"...but what have the Romans ever done for us?"

They showed the early Britons how to cultivate cider apples more effectively... 👍🏾

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,PB At Work
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 10:10 AM

No

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 04:06 PM

why didn't the euro work?

I thought it was a great idea. i was sorry we didn't join.

but apparently we would all be skint if we had joined.

if a good idea like that doesn't work. how can it be any good?

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 05:56 PM

The inability to float of each Eurozone nation's currency puts incredible strains on the countries with weaker economies. There is no scope for devaluation or revaluation, either gradual or sudden. Two years ago I was getting a euro for a quid for my holidays. This year I got €1.40. I could have got that regardless of which Eurozone country I visited. That covered Germany, almost as strong an economy as you could wish to have, and Greece, a bloody basket case. That just doesn't work.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 07:02 PM

wasn't the idea that we were all going to help each others economy out. so we'd be one big strong currency.

i still don't see why it didn't work. there are bits of the USA   where the economy ain't what it should be, but the dollar sort of protects them all. because everyone trusts dollars.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 07:47 PM

I wouldn't particularly argue that all parts of the US are in equally hunkydory financial condition. But there is far closer political union than in Europe (ask the Greeks) and a sort of national overall economic plan for the whole nation.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 04:51 AM

seen the grand old flag thread - doesn't seem particularly close politically.

in fact one lot spend all their time getting armed in case the other lot get too lippy.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 06:43 AM

I really don't know. I am in favour of the Common Market, and the idea of Europe all working together rather than fighting one another (although some claim that NATO has played the bigger part in that).

However the EU as an institution doesn't work, and as it gets bigger it becomes even more bureaucratic and unwieldy. It takes ages to make decisions and even when it recognises it has made a mistake it cannot easily undo it (as the VATMOSS muddle shows). It appears to be ruled by an unelected and unaccountable elite.

The euro was never going to work - it was brought in for political rather than economic reasons, but without centralised controls sooner or later it was bound to hit problems. However does anyone anywhere really want "ever closer union", apart from the politicians and bureaucrats who want to extend their power? Certainly not without a radical reform of how it is electorally accountable to the people of Europe.

The problem with the referendum is that unless the government is able to successfully renegotiate our relationship with the EU we may be asked to vote for a pig in a poke.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 07:32 AM

Can anyone actually demonstrate to me that we are undergoing "ever-closer union"? Seems to me that there are plenty enough squabbles about contributions, migrants, borders, Greece, etc., that, if anything, are keeping EU countries more at arms length from each other. I am having this suspicion that "ever-closer union" is becoming one of those politically-useful but vacuous phrases such as "hard-working families", "benefits lifestyle", "people who do the right thing", "giving parents choices", "United States of Europe", etc. Every time I hear one of these, or any of several others, it sets my sceptic's antennae atwitching.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 07:39 AM

good point(s) steve. see also 'the EU costs the UK £x billion a day' where 'x' means make up your own number then double it - or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 08:33 AM

Maybe not Steve but "ever closer union" is the declared objective of the EU. The euro was intended to be a significant step towards it but could only have functioned properly if closer union had already been achieved.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 09:00 AM

The euro appears to have been evidence of what I thought I already knew, that economists are a bunch of bloody idiots. Whatever the EU objectives are, apart from the migrant issue the one thing that will ultimately tear the EU limb from limb is the euro, which would be ironic. Anyway, never mind. I still have a thousand euros on my prepay card that I bought at €1.40 for a quid. Cheap Prosecco on me hols next year!

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 11:42 AM

i share steve's distaxte with the revolting Farage and the iffy language of the euro sceptics. having said that....its not good , is it?

we really do need to tell the the spanish fishermen to fuck off and build up our fish stocks.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 11:49 AM

All this rage against the perfectly effective, in the usual way of politicians, Farage, strikes me as an excellent example of what might be called the shoot·the·messenger syndrome.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:08 PM

Michael, I am amazed at you. Nigel Farage is a confounded liar who homes in on our EU contribution but who never mentions the benefits we receive. I suppose we could put it down to the fact that they are far harder to put a monetary value to and that he's too thick to do it. But I doubt it. He is also a racist and a scaremonger. He wants to stop the influx of migrants, as we know, but he tells us that it's largely because ISIS might be embedded with them. He believes in collective punishment then for offences that haven't even been committed. One of his spokesmen on the radio today said that Turkey, who is looking after two million refugees at a cost so far of six billion dollars, should not be helped. He is a shallow populist who deals in the easy crowd-pleasers but who won't confront the hard bits that would in any case would just get people yawning. He knows exactly what he's doing, but you appear not to.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:28 PM

No comment. Further dispute between us on this topic would clearly be sterile and futile.

So let's leave it there, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:39 PM

OK. Sorry to beat you up in such brutal fashion. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 03:10 PM

There's been mention of fish stocks in this thread. Fish stocks in the North Sea are far higher than they have been for the past few decades.

If you want to conserve the fish stocks you need to look at the discard system that forces fishermen to jettison perfectly good fish because they don't have a quota to land that particular species.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 03:25 PM

You haven't "beaten" anyone up Steve, you have simply given Your views of Mr Farage as a politician and a human being.

Michael has no doubt become tired of your hysterical and very biased posting on this and other issues.

I don't agree with UKIPs economic policies, but Mr Farage has been warning us all about the dangers of these very high immigration rates for years.....you don't tell us what level of immigration would be acceptable in your opinion.

Ranting about racism just makes you look stupid....

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 03:50 PM

Farage is wrong because he says its a simple question.

bit like thatcher and the shopping basket.

you can't trust anyone who says a complex problem is simple. he's obviously worked out a way of filling his own pockets.

he makes it have to have a sensible debate.

perhaps mudcat is not the place - just too many people with political agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 04:40 PM

Spot on, Al.

Akenaton, you don't understand humour. Just bugger off, will you. I have no time for you.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 06:12 PM

No position at all then?......I would have had a bet on that! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 08:30 PM

We can't help it if you can't read. Now, as I said, just bugger off, why don't you.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 02:10 AM

Now don't quarrel over poor little old me, there's good children. Simply as a matter of fact, I not only examined all the bits I could see in the mirror, but actually had Emma examine me, ocularly & digitally, all over (it was rather fun, actually!); but neither of us could find a single bruise except the one I knew the cause of - having caught my left hip on a corner of the table while trying to inhibit the cat from doing whatever it was she was trying to do under there.

So I'm afraid you don't get your Beater-Up Badge this time, Steve. You'll have to take the test again in front of the Patrol Leaders' Committee after at least another month has elapsed.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 06:03 AM

i wonder if you can remember Mike these debates and forums on this question in Encounter magazine in the 1960's . Kingsley Amis was a great europhobe and immensely entertaining.

i don't think theres anyone else here who will remember that far back.

the strange thing is. i don't remember the debate being well informed then, and not not much better now.

even after 40 years of being in the common market.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 09:53 AM

I don't really think it's a matter of being 'well-informed' actually, Al; and never was. Far more of an emotional, gut-instinct, sort of thing. My own instinct is against; but mileages vary and always did. I was never much of an Encounter reader; tended to fund it a bit heavy and Stephen Spenderish, & he never a poet I greatly admired: always thought Louis MacNeice far & away the best of that lot.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 09:55 AM

The best considered view posted so far comes from Richard Bridge -

On the EU however, the social chapter and workers rights and EU discrimination law are all valuable things.

TTIP and free movement of capital are not. If we had a government that could opt out of the TTIP that the EUcrats are about to drag us into (despite about three and a half million signatures on a petition opposing it) I would seriously consider leaving the EU the right thing to do. If we had a government that could at a stroke re-impose exchange control, just as the bitch Thatcher abolished it I might also consider leaving the EU the right thing to do. But we haven't.

The first and most important thing to do is to get rid of the con-servatives.

His first sentence is of crucial importance to me because along with Hungary, we have the most right-wing government in Europe. On balance - and it's not an easy one - I'm in favour of staying in.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 10:20 AM

i loved them all. auden macneice spender, george barker - he novels of isherwood. and of course dylan thomas

youre right though autumn journal is knockout.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 01:39 PM

Thank you Vic

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 03:14 PM

Autumn Journal indeed! I always feel the last two lines here refer, not only to the Ancient World, but to my youth, way back before, during & just after WWii; & I feel MacNeice, writing them, was thinking of his own youth also --

             I think of the slaves.
And how one can imagine oneself among them
     I do not know;
It was all so unimaginably different
     And all so long ago.   
Louis MacNeice · Autumn Journal (1939)

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 03:42 PM

my latest poem

If I'd a horse called Jurgen Klopp
I 'd ride my horse down to the shop
I'd dismount and buy a bottle of of pop
then off I'd ride
Clip clop
Clip clop

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:22 PM

Following the drift as it goes, as one does on this forum as a matter of tradition -- things usually get back on keel evenchul! --

Re - Mention by Al of Dylan Thomas above. One of the nicest things that has happened in my nearly 40 years living in this village was when an enterprising Welsh neighbour called Mair Fryer [no longer here alas] roped in a goodly proportion of the population & directed us in Under Milk Wood in the village hall. I still remember most of my part as Sinbad Sailors the Publican whose granny lived in the attic and who was in love with the village maiden -- "Oh Mr Jenkins, says Sinbad Sailors, Oh Mr Jenkins, I dote on that Gossamer Beynon; She's a lady all over!" Odd thing about the neighbour who played my Granny: I had been in two village plays with her previously. In the first she was my wife; in the second my mother-in-law; and now she was my granny!

Shall still vote to leave the EU but YMMV natch.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 08:22 AM

yes i value the humanitarian input. i tend to think it should be subject of shame that we didn't think of doing all that stuff ourselves, and needed Europe to guide us.

all the economic stuff i don't understand. like i said i thought the euro was a great idea. shows how much i know.

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Oct 15 - 02:15 PM

I'll be voting to leave. I am not suggesting that we are lions but we certainly are being led by donkeys. There is a group of unelected bureaucrats who sit around all day and think up new laws. And we just go along with it.

It won't be long before Europe splits between the Euro zone and the rest anyway. I can't remember the date. Is it 2023? I can't wait for that. Exit now!

Subject: RE: BS: should UK leave the EU?
From: GUEST,Roger Knowles
Date: 19 Oct 15 - 03:36 PM

England had one thousand, nine hundred and seventy three years without being in the EU. We did OK then and would do OK again if we leave.