Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental

Subject: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 15 Feb 16 - 02:06 PM

Hi all,

I bought a set of 5 of The Pogues albums recently and I have to confess, I am at a loss to remember the names of many of the Irish tunes they incorporate into their punk rock music.

One exception is the use of the second part of Turlough O'Carolan's Fanny Power on the London You're A Lady track on the Peace and Love album. (I'd have to hang up my harp if I didn't know that one.)

If any of you knowledgeable people can enlighten me on the names of Irish tunes that the Pogues use, I'd be extremely grateful. Trying to remember the names of the tunes is like a ghost whispering in my ear but not loud enough for me to hear the words. Maybe the punk rock gets in the way somehow.

Also, I am hoping to find out the name of the tune used for Hell's Ditch. It sounds Greek or Middle Eastern,and it sounds like it is being played on an Irish bouzouki or something similar. Very catchy tune and I'd like to learn to play it.

Thanks heaps,
Helen

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Feb 16 - 03:35 PM

Didn't The Broad Majestic Shannon use some traditional tune? Don't know the name though.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Feb 16 - 05:05 PM

On the "If I Should Fall From Grace With God" album they follow up South Australia with "Salmon Tails Up the River" (or possibly the tune for "Red Haired Mary" which is very similar).

"The Broad Majestic Shannon" incorporated the opening phrase of "Give Me Your hand" in the middle, if I'm not mistaken.

"Sit Down by the Fire" includes the A part of "The Blarney Pilgrim".

Can anyone name the tunes used in the "Battle March Medley" on "IISFFGW/God"?

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Feb 16 - 05:14 PM

... and no help with the "Hells Ditch" tune(s). It does sound Greek. If you ever find the ABC for this one let me know.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Feb 16 - 05:56 PM

I just asked about the Hell's Ditch tune on a Greek music forum. It does sound familiar.

The opening of The Broad Majestic Shannon is a jig I used to play, but I'm buggered if I can remember its name.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 16 Feb 16 - 12:48 AM

Thanks everyone.

The tune on The Broad Majestic Shannon has me beat, too. It reminds me a bit of the tune in The Fairytale of New York, too.

Also the tune on the beginning of The Sunnyside of the Street is just on the edge of my brain. It has shades of Believe Me If All Those Endearing Young Charms, but slightly re-jigged.

I was optimistic and thought that if I Googled I would find all the answers laid out for me, but I think I might not be the only Pogues/folk fan who is struggling to name the tunes.

I've never been good at remembering the names of tunes at the best of times, but throw them into punk rock format and it's a real challenge.

gillymor, if I find the ABC etc for the Greek sounding song, I'll definitely post it here. The tune in the first part of The Turkish Song of the Damned is also a good one but it is more Middle Eastern, and then they launch into a couple of Irish tunes at the end.

This quest might keep me occupied for a while.

Helen

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Feb 16 - 03:28 AM

The answer here suggests it's a pastiche:

http://www.gtc-music1.com/forum/index.php?topic=10789

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 16 Feb 16 - 08:12 AM

The last tune in Turkish Song of the Damned sounds like the A section of "Lark in the Morning".

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Feb 16 - 10:59 AM

Another thing it resembles is a Breton dance tune.

I made a stab at transcribing it, but it's just too tiresome a task. I don't mean the music is tiresome, just that is hard to get down.

Helen, I've had an idea. Why don't you explore Breton tunes online and see if you can find one that you like just as much but has the advantage of being notated already?

The fascination of that piece (Hell's Ditch) does not lie in the notes in it. It lies in the use of stress - artfully getting louder and softer to create excitement.   

(Who remembers when the theme from 'Zorba the Greek' blew the minds of America's youth with its sexy, pulsing introduction? Same thing.)

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 16 Feb 16 - 02:08 PM

This might appear a few times - having trouble getting it to submit.

Hi Jack,

Yes, that makes sense.

On wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell's_Ditch the track listing for the song Hell's Ditch shows:

"Hell's Ditch" (MacGowan, Finer) and the personnel for the album are:

Personnel

    Shane MacGowan - vocals
    Jem Finer - banjo, mandola, hurdy-gurdy, saxophone, guitar
    Spider Stacy - tin whistle, vocals, harmonica
    James Fearnley - accordion, piano, guitar, violin, sitar, kalimba
    Terry Woods - mandolin, guitar, cittern, vocals, concertina, auto harp
    Philip Chevron - guitar
    Darryl Hunt - bass guitar
    Andrew Ranken - drums
    Josh Shoes - cover-art

So Jem Finer plays mandola, which I suspect is the instrument I thought was an Irish bouzouki, and he is credited as a co-writer for the song.

leeneia, when I get a chance (unfortunately I have to go to work today - what a drag!) I'll try to work the Hell's Ditch tune out, but thanks for the Breton idea. I have only heard Alan Stivell's Breton songs so I'd have to start from scratch. I could try listening to some Greek tunes too. (Why am I still obliged to work when there is so many more fun things I'd rather be doing?)

About the Irish bouzouki, there was an Irish Australian here called Ollie Francis, who passed away last year. He used to play Music for a Found Harmonium and another tune - I can't remember which one, it might have been The Downfall of Paris - on the Irish bouzouki and they sounded amazing. Lovely instrument!

gillymor, the Battle March Medley are tunes I don't know, but the small beginning riff which is repeated in the middle as well sounds a bit like the beginning of the March of the King of Laois. I can have a trawl through O'Neill's book in the march section and see if anything sounds similar.

So much music, so little time!

Helen

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 16 Feb 16 - 05:43 PM

Thanks for the idea on the March Medley, Helen. I'll check out O'Neill's, as well.

On Hell's Ditch it sounds like there are 2 multi-course instruments with Terry Woods (who did a lot of Bouzouki work for the Pogues) on the lower Cittern, a 5 course instrument very much akin to the Irish Bouzouki, and Finer on the higher pitched mandola(?). Heartily agree on the beauty of the Irish Bouzouki, it's become my main instrument.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Feb 16 - 03:50 PM

It doesn't sound anything like a Breton tune. On the other hand, I don't think SOLO on the Greek forum is quite fair either. The connection with Zorba makes extramusical sense - the Pogues had a thing about individualistic rebels, and both Zorba and Genet fit that category. Linking them by a musical allusion is quite effective, if you get it. It isn't just ripping the Greek tradition off. (It also marks the only place I can think of where an Irish bouzouki player actually connects with the Greek origins of the instrument - you could see it as a mark of respect).

BTW I don't think any music like the theme of the Zorba film actually existed at the time and place where Kazantzakis met the real Zorba, but it's closer than making Greensleeves mediaeval. (Real Cretan folk music would have been way too alien for Hollywood).

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Feb 16 - 04:30 PM

Jack, you have to listen long enough to get past the one-note introduction.

Helen, you asked about the Irish tunes that the Pogues used. I'm hoping that you wish to play them.

if you look up the Pogues on Wikipedia, they have their Discography. If you click on the earlier albums, you see pieces labelled Traditional. Apparently most of those are Irish. You can probably find music for these pieces, one way or another, on the Internet.

If you are new to finding such music, get back to us with the titles you are interested in.

The Hell's Ditch piece is a new composition in an old style. You could call it Greek, Turkish, Breton or Balkan. It will be extra work getting or transcribing music for that one.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 17 Feb 16 - 04:33 PM

Hi again,

Yes, gillymor, I've always loved the sound of lutes, bouzoukis, ouds etc. It speaks to my heart as much as harps do.

Jack Campin, I agree with what you said. I have to confess to not knowing the story of Zorba but if he was a rebel then, yes, The Pogues would have liked him.

Have you ever heard the song called Tears and Pavan (sic) by a 60's English band called The Strawbs? About 3:50 minutes into the song they break into a beautiful Greek sounding tune and then that tune finishes the song with a full instrumental version.

Album version:

The Strawbs - Tears and Pavan

Live version - 3 old dudes playing acoustic guitars on stage:

The Strawbs - Tears and Pavan

I've had the vinyl record since the early 70's and then updated to CD a few years ago. That song is one of my favourites.

I guess I have to add that one to my to do list, too.

Helen

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Feb 16 - 05:34 PM

I'd never heard the Strawbs piece before. To my ear, that tune sounds Spanish rather than Greek - a slowed-down fandango or bolero - and the off-accent backing is like what castanet players do with Spanish rhythms. (The live trio version is faster and more fandango-like). Imagine this a bit slower:

Boccherini Fandango

(There are Andalusian flamenco versions of the same rhythm, but the way they conceptualize it all makes my brain hurt).

The harmonic pattern is much more like Spanish music than Greek, too.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 17 Feb 16 - 07:10 PM

Wow, Jack, that's a curve ball! I'll have to think about that because it always sounded Greek-influenced to me. I love flamenco music and I never thought it seemed to relate to that.

(But I never need to look for an excuse to listen to Boccherini, so thanks for that.)

Helen

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 17 Feb 16 - 10:21 PM

gillymor,

Here is a site which has midi files, Noteworthy files, ABC files, and sheet music files for the book, O'Neill's Music of Ireland. I've put the link in for the March section:

O'Neill's Music of Ireland - Marches

Helen

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Feb 16 - 12:31 AM

Yes, Helen, thanks for that heads up. I found it after our conversation. Complete with Midis, amazing.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 22 Feb 16 - 03:50 AM

Hi again,

Jack, I've been thinking about your fandango suggestion but all I can hear is Greek inspired music rather than fandango.

(As an aside, I'll tell you a little story about listening to Boccherini. I'm not terribly fond of Mozart's music, and every time I hear a piece of music which I think might be by Mozart, but that I actually like, I find out it's either by Handel or Boccherini - so that means two things: I like Handel's and Boccherini's music and I still don't like most of Mozart's music, except for The Magic Flute opera.)

Now, back to the question at hand: I've discovered which tune is on the song called White City on The Pogue's CD called Peace and Love.

It's known in Australian folk circles as Another Fall of Rain

but a Google search shows that the original tune is called either Little Old Log Cabin in the Dell or Little Old Log Cabin in the Lane.

Another Fall of Rain

I have to admit, I don't think I've ever heard the Cabin version, but that's probably a consequence of being in Oz so the Rain song is more well known here.

So, one tune identified, and only about 50 more to go. :-)

gillymor, I couldn't identify any of the O'Neill's marches as being part of the Battle March Medley, however by listening to the midi files, I did find a tune I'd like to learn called Return from Fingal.

Helen

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 22 Feb 16 - 09:24 AM

Nor could I, Helen, thanks.
I learned The Return From Fingal on guitar from a Pierre Bensusan folio some time ago, nice tune. I'll have to try it out on the zouk.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 22 Feb 16 - 09:53 AM

...and, Helen, did you make any inquiries at
The Session regarding the tunes? While they're not much concerned with songs there I've noticed that some knowledgeable Pogues fans hang out there.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 22 Feb 16 - 08:10 PM

Hi gillymor,

I found the YouTube video of Pierre Bensusan playing Return from Fingal. Beautiful. I also found one of Seamus Ennis playing it on the Uillean pipes. I realised I have it on a Chieftains CD called Chieftains 4. The track is named The Battle of Aughrim but the second tune on the track is Return to Fingal.

Lord Mayo, After the Battle of Aughrim, and the March of the King of Laois (or Laoise) are three beautiful marches which are in our local session group's playlist.

I found a page with some comments about The Pogues on the website called The Session. I didn't investigate further as I was a bit pushed for time. I'll have another look later.


I realised that the tune used for White City, on the Peace and Love album is more likely to be The Curragh of Kildare and that Another Fall of Rain is probably based on that tune. (I arrived at that conclusion after hearing the tune all night in my head as I tossed and turned trying to sleep last night, and kept just not managing to catch any of the words. I finally looked through the titles in a book of some Irish songs and there it was. I could have had a great night's sleep if I did that last night and not today.)

Also another discovery in my quest for answers: on The Red Roses for Me CD, the first track called Transmetropolitan has the tune called I'm a Man You Don't Meet Every Day at the beginning and end. This a song on their Rum, Sodomy and the Lash CD.

Helen

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 22 Feb 16 - 08:55 PM

It sure sounds like they used The Curragh of Kildare tune for White City.

The Halting March seems to follow Return From Fingal really well (something suggested on the Session).

Helen, if you have any more Pogue tune mysteries do post them. It's fun to try and track them down.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 25 Feb 16 - 08:29 AM

According to a poster at The Session it seems that The Battlefield March Medley was a piece composed by Terry Woods.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 26 Feb 16 - 06:50 PM

Thanks for that info on the Battlefield March Medley. I didn't recognise any of the tunes, so that makes sense.

I was just listening to the Peace and Love CD. There is part of it which reminds me of the chorus of the song Seven Drunken Nights

I find it easier to pick the tunes if they are songs because I think of the words, but if it's a jig or reel without words I just can't pick the name of the tune even if I've heard it a hundred times.

There is an interesting gadget on this site. It uses software to compare tunes and then shows a graphic representation of the tunes with the most similar towards the centre and least similar at the edges.

Tunegraph for comparing tunes

It's fun to play around with, but not useful in my current quest because I do't think The Pogues' tunes are included.

Helen

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 26 Feb 16 - 06:56 PM

Oops! I was referring to the track called London You're a Lady, which is the one with the second part of Carolan's tune called Fanny Power.

And yes, I can spell "don't" but I'm not so good at typing it. LOL

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 27 Feb 16 - 01:42 PM

Helen, your link took me to abcnotation.com and I didn't see a mention of TuneGraph, I may have overlooked it. Googling it brought me
to this download page.
Until this thread I never gave Love and Peace a good listen but it seems like it's full of good stuff, particularly the mandola(?) intro to Limerick Rake and a lot of good bouzouki playing as well.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 27 Feb 16 - 01:59 PM

TuneGraph is the doodad made up of wriggling blobs and connecting lines you see on the right of a tune page on that site.

I haven't found an explanation of what its comparisons are based on, so it's not all that useful.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 27 Feb 16 - 02:20 PM

Okay, I've got it. You have to go to the tune page. I've never noticed it before.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 27 Feb 16 - 05:01 PM

Jack & gillymor,

Sometimes the tunegraph reveals interesting connections and sometimes it just leaves me scratching my head.

There is an explanation here:

tunegraph explanation

When you are looking at the tunegraph you can double-click a tune "dot" and it will take you to that tune's page and you can hear the tune by clicking the play button.

I can't remember which one of the Pogues' tunes makes me think of one part of the Yankee Doodle tune, so that's why I was looking at the tunegraph.

gillymor, I should not have bought the 5 CD set of the Pogues because I have been listening to all of the CD's and the more I listen the more tunes I hear, so it makes it hard to focus on identifying just one tune out of so many.

Also I hear so many clever uses of the old tunes mixed with the punk music. There are also Spanish, Asian and Middle Eastern influences, and then out of the blue, there are beautiful, totally non-punk songs like Lorelei.

I'll never get any work done. Luckily I can play them in the car on my way to and from work, so I get a good half hour's listening each way.

Helen

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 27 Feb 16 - 05:47 PM

gillymor,

The Limerick Rake track is beautiful. I just listened to it on YouTube.

Because I bought a 5 CD set of the original albums there were none of the bonus tracks which came on the reissued CD of Peace and Love. Limerick Rake was one of those tracks. Looks like I'll be buying some more Pogues CD's.

Helen

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 28 Feb 16 - 08:43 AM

Helen: "I should not have bought the 5 CD set of the Pogues because I have been listening to all of the CD's and the more I listen the more tunes I hear, so it makes it hard to focus on identifying just one tune out of so many."

That sounds like a good problem to have but remember, child, we're here to help. I listen on Spotify and become less and less inclined to fish out CD's and vinyl.

Their eclecticism, that you note, is probably what draws me in. It's a musical smorgasbord that for the most part is very well dpne.

Funny, I'm just now appreciating Lorelei after bypassing it for so long. Another "popish" song I'm partial to is from Waiting for Herb (The Pogues Shaneless and I don't think this CD is one of their better efforts) is Tuesday Morning.

I definitely didn't give Peace and Love a "good listen" as I referred to it above as Love and Peace.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 28 Feb 16 - 01:30 PM

Hi again,

I'll find Waiting for Herb and have a listen.

I buy the CD's and then copy them onto my PC through Windows Media, and then I put them on my USB stick which I use in the car stereo and I also put them on my Walkman which I listen to at work - because I work in a quiet office with no customers to distract me. That means I'm not fishing the CD's out to listen to them but I can find them if I need them for my little stereo in my workroom at home.

Yes, it's a good problem. Over the years I've listened here and there to The Pogues music, but not in a concentrated way. They were probably the laughingstock of the punk movement because they actually knew how to play instruments, and the more I listen to them now, the more I appreciate that fact, and the clever ways they have reworked the old tunes.

I used to listen to punk music when the Sex Pistols were in their heyday back in the 70's so I appreciate their style of music but most of them weren't musical geniuses because I think it was the message which was more important than the technical musical ability.

I think I was wrong about which album the Yankee Doodle tune was on. In the past few days I've also listened to If I Should Fall From Grace With God, and Red Roses for Me, so it might have been on one of those. I just know that I started hearing Yankee Doodle in my head, so one of the tunes reminded me of it.

Helen

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 28 Feb 16 - 07:30 PM

Here's one: Sea Shanty on "RR For Me" uses the A part of The Kesh Jig as an instrumental bridge and a section of another jig after it which I can't ID and it sounds like no part of the Kesh that I've heard. It does sound like a trad tune but with the Pogues there's no telling.

Just noticed that the first verse of The Body of an American uses the melody that Delores Keane used in Galway Bay or one that sounds a lot like it.

Haven't heard Yankee Doodle anywhere. Yet.

Helen, I made a youtube link in my last post for Tuesday Morning. Perhaps you can't get it where you're at but anyway here it is again:
Click here.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 12:06 PM

Hi gillymor,

I saw but didn't see the link, but I was in a rush to get to work. I just listened to it a couple of times. I like it, although maybe not as much as Lorelei. There is definitely a different atmosphere to that track without Shane McGowan's influence.

I listened to The Body of an American. After the first little intro, there is a tune which sounds like an Australian trad song called The Catalpa and the tune is based on a variant of the Irish tune called Rosin the Bow.

I'll have to listen to Delores Keane's version of Galway Bay.

I can't find the Yankee Doodle tune again. Too many songs to listen to, and yesterday at work people kept interrupting my listening by trying to talk to me about work. How rude! :-D

Helen

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 12:13 PM

I'll have to listen to Delores Keane's version of Galway Bay.

The tune she uses is that of 'Skibereen'

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 01:59 PM

Hi again,

I listened to Delores Keane singing Galway Bay and the tune is almost the same as the song sung by Christy Moore called The Galtee Mountain Boy.

I'll listen to the Sea Shanty this afternoon, after work.

Helen

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 01:55 PM

Thanks Peter, I had not heard of Skibereen but I listened to it on YouTube and it definitely sounds like the tune on Body of an American.

When I Googled Galtee Mountain Boy I didn't find a reference to the origins of the tune, but I know it is an Irish song writing tradition to write new lyrics to old/trad tunes.

An example of this relates to an Irish convict called Frank the Poet who was sent out to Australia in 1832, and he spent some time in our local area. He wrote poetry but also new words to old Irish tunes, and one of my favourites is Moreton Bay song using trad tune Boolavogue

Only one more day of work and I have my regular long weekend, so I'll go through this thread and list the tunes used by The Pogues that we have identified so far.

Our session is tomorrow night at my place so I might inflict some Pogues tracks on the sessioners while we pause for a cup of tea so that they can help in this challenging quest. They are a knowledgeable bunch, so I am sure they will provide some answers.

Helen

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 01 Mar 16 - 08:16 PM

I stumbled onto this gem on youtube, "The Pogues in Paris" a professionally made concert film from 2012. Click here.
Those geezers (I'm probably older than most of them) really rocked out.

I may have confused matters by referring to My Dear Old Galway Bay as simply Galway Bay. Different song entirely. Here's some info and a performance by DK.Click here. I have to admit though, I don't hear Skibereen anywhere in Body of An American?

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 03 Mar 16 - 05:22 PM

gillymor, I hear The Galtee Mountain Boy tune on this YouTube track of Body of An American starting from about 35 seconds in and going up to 1 minute 10 seconds

The Body of an American

I can hear a similar tune when I listen to Skibereen.

Our session group last night was too busy chatting to listen to The Pogues, so I've just sent them out an email with some tracks on the If I Should Fall From Grace With God album.

Track numbers and the time on each track where the tunes start:

# 2. the tune in the middle and then end part of Turkish Song of the Damned, starting at 2 minutes into the track, then an instrumental at 2 mins 40 secs

# 6. Thousands Are Sailing - the last part, about 4 mins 40 secs into the track

# 7 The end part of South Australia from about 2 minutes into the track

# 12 The Battle March Medley is the track I played last night. There are snippets of March of the King of Laoise between each tune. but it's possible that the first main tune was written recently and is not traditional. The one which someone said is a slip jig starts at about 2 minutes into the track.

# 14 The Broad Majestic Shannon - the first part of the tune at 1 minute 20 secs is the same as one of the melody lines in # 4 Fairytale of New York also starting at 1 Min 20 secs where Kirsty McColl sings "They've got cars bigs as bars...etc" and then there is an instrumental part with that tune straight after.



I've identified a couple more of the snippets of tunes:

On Rum, Sodomy and the Lash, the track called Gentleman Soldier has a snippet of The British Grenadiers - "Some talk of Alexander, and some of Hercules..."

I think I was wrong about what I posted near the beginning of the thread:

Re Hell's Ditch album: "Also the tune on the beginning of The Sunnyside of the Street is just on the edge of my brain. It has shades of Believe Me If All Those Endearing Young Charms, but slightly re-jigged."

I think it might be A Man You Don't Meet Every Day rather than Believe Me etc.

Helen

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Mar 16 - 07:53 PM

You're quite right about The Galtee Mountain Boy (a song I hadn't heard before), Helen. I think it shares a similar melody to My Dear Old Galway Bay and the first verse of Body of an American.

This is what I hear on your list, most of which is a rehash of my previous observations:

#2 Turkish Song of the Damned -The only one I can spot is the instrumental at 2:40 which is the A part of the jig Lark in the Morning. We occasionally play this one at our weekly session.

#6 Thousands are Sailing- Can't Recognize any part of that as a traditional tune. It was written by the late Philip Chevron. It's one of my favorite songs. I'd be interested to hear what your friends say.

#7 South Australia- The tune at the end is Salmon Tails Up the River (alt...Up the Water). The tune or a very similar one is used by Dervish on Red Haired Mary. I used to sing and play this one when I performed in a duo.

#14 The Broad Majestic Shannon- don't know the one at 1:20 but the one at 1:29 is a quote of the Ruairi Dall O'Cathain harp tune Give Me Your Hand (Tabhair Dom Do Lamh). We also play this one at our session.

I never knew that little interlude in Gentleman Soldier was The British Grenadiers. Good to know.

Sunny Side of the Street- I agree that the intro does bare a faint resemblance to A Man You Don't Meet Everyday. That little riff they play right before and right after the verses sounds to me like a bit like the one Herman's Hermits used on their version of Sam Cooke's Wonderful World.

All this detective work is making me thirsty. This thread has rekindled my love for The Pogues music, I'm hearing all kinds of stuff I missed previously. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Mar 16 - 08:17 PM

It occurs to me that that riff in SSOTS is actually a bit like the one from the Beatles "What You're Doing" and not from Herman's Hermits Wonderful World.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 04 Mar 16 - 01:41 PM

Yes, of course!

"#14 The Broad Majestic Shannon- don't know the one at 1:20 but the one at 1:29 is a quote of the Ruairi Dall O'Cathain harp tune Give Me Your Hand (Tabhair Dom Do Lamh). We also play this one at our session."

You said that before and I forgot to listen to it.

I should have heard that riff because it used to be a favourite in our sessions when John Day, the man who made my harp, was a member. He has sadly passed away now, but is fondly remembered by all who knew him. He also made beautifully crafted Appalachian dulcimers and guitars.

You're right, this detective work is thirsty work, but we seem to be making progress.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 04 Mar 16 - 02:26 PM

I have sent an email to Mudcat about the invasion of the spammer.

Although the harleybike handle could relate to an interest in The Pogues, an "honest realtor" who is a spammer could only be interesting material for a new song by them.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 04 Mar 16 - 04:57 PM

Thanks to the lovely Joe Offer for removing the spam so quickly!!

Helen

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 09 Mar 16 - 06:39 PM

Thanks for nothing gillymor! LOL

Now I've gone and not only bought the full Peace and Love CD with the bonus tracks that you referred to above:

"Until this thread I never gave Love and Peace a good listen but it seems like it's full of good stuff, particularly the mandola(?) intro to Limerick Rake and a lot of good bouzouki playing as well."

but I've also bought a 5 CD set called The Pogues Box Set with even more songs and tunes to listen to, many of them previously unreleased and/or live performances. I'll never get any work done now.

That Limerick Rake song is brilliant! The more I listen to The Pogues, the more I like them.

Helen

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 09 Mar 16 - 08:30 PM

Helen, I'm glad you're listening to the Pogues and not wasting your time being a productive member of society.

Here's one: The tune between the verses in "The Sick Bed of Cuchulainn" (on Rum Sodomy and the Lash) it sounds like a traditional tune but who knows?

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 09 Mar 16 - 09:08 PM

I was listening to The Broad Majestic Shannon again, and just after Give Me Your Hand (at 1 min 45 secs), the lyric is: "so take my hand and dry your tears babe.." so they appear to have slipped in that snippet of tune to pre-emptt the lyrics of the song.

That tune in "The Sick Bed of Cuchulainn" does sound familiar. It reminds me a bit of style of The Portsmouth (hornpipe), or The Trumpet (hornpipe) aka Captain Pugwash theme.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 09 Mar 16 - 10:25 PM

Unfortunately I am still wasting my time being a productive member of society 3 days a week and I'm desperately trying to work out the finances so that I can be totally unproductive to society for a change.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 08:06 AM

I found this regarding "Sickbed" which didn't help with the tune but I thought it was very interesting.

I retired earlier this year, though I still do small jobs for friends and family according to my own schedule, and I highly recommend it.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 10:00 PM

gillymor,

Earlier in the thread you said:

"On the "If I Should Fall From Grace With God" album they follow up South Australia with "Salmon Tails Up the River" (or possibly the tune for "Red Haired Mary" which is very similar). "

On the new 5 CD set I just bought, the first track on the first CD is called The Kerry Polka. It's the same tune as the one which starts at just under 2 minutes on the South Australia track. It's very similar to Salmon Tails Up the River. The beginning of the Kerry Polka sounds like the beginning of the Scottish tune, Marie's Wedding, the part with the lyrics "step we lightly as we go, heel to heel and toe to toe".

By the way, the 5 CD box set is titled, Just Look Them in the Eye and Say Pogue Mahone.

I read most of what was on the page you linked to (and skipped the part about cruelty to cats). Very interesting information. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 10:00 AM

I play the Kerry Polka with a concertina-playing friend of mine in a set with 3 Ballydesmond Polkas. Which Pogues album is it on? I haven't heard them do it. BTW, the tune is also known as Egan's Polka according to The Session.

Click here for 5 settings of Salmon Tails Up the River (or Water) at The Session, followed by some discussion. If you hit the download button and select Midi you can listen to each of them. The 5th one sounds most like what the Pogues play, to me.

Cheers

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 11 Mar 16 - 03:18 PM

Hi gillymor,

The Kerry Polka is track 1, CD 1 of the new box set I just bought called Just Look Them in the Eye and Say Pogue Mahone

I know The Session site. Great resource! One of the best.

I'll check out the Salmon Tails variations on the tune. I do hear that tune, but here is

The Kerry Polka track from the box set.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 12 Mar 16 - 08:57 AM

Thanks for the link, Helen. That is the tune the Pogues play after South Austrailia. There may be some elucidation in the comments accompanying the video.

Click here for the tune I know as "The Kerry Polka". The lovely young lady starts playing it 55 seconds in.

This can get confusing as, for example, there are 3 Ballydesmond polkas that are commonly played around here (we play them with the Kerry Polka linked above) and they are identified as 1,2 and 3 but sometimes people can't agree on which one is which.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 12 Mar 16 - 02:38 PM

gillymor,

I was thinking about the tune that The Pogues call The Kerry Polka.

(As an aside, I had a friend, now sadly deceased, who was a blues man and not an Irish music fan. He was always very funny, and he called the Irish tunes "diddly dum diddly" music because it all sounded the same to him. If I wondered aloud about the name of a tune people were playing in a session he'd just say it was called Diddly Dum Diddly.)

So, the one that The Pogues called The Kerry Polka definitely sounds like the STUTR/W and for whatever reason, they called it a different name.

I just found this and it appears to be the same tune:

The Ballydesmond (#3) polka on The Session

The last comment on the page is:

"Ballydesmond #3

Kerry Polka, see https://thesession.org/tunes/1410 "

I have also been thinking about the folk tradition in pre-electronic technology times. It was a process of hearing and learning tunes from others and then the tunes spread around the country, then around the world and the tunes could change, the names could change, but the variations originated as one tune.

In the Australian folk tradition there is a huge Irish influence, starting with the Irish people transported out here as convicts. It's a big country out here especially when you think of it with no communications technologies to record or transmit the tunes. A musician would maybe hear a tune once or twice and then learn to play it, maybe not playing it exactly the same, and then it's like Chinese Whispers. It subtly changes as each musician hears it differently or remembers it differently, or puts his/her own spin on it.

The book which started me on my love of folk music and I used to borrow it from the library when I was in early high school, is called: Folk Songs of Australia, and the Men and Women Who Sang Them, by John Meredith and Hugh Anderson, published in 1967 by Ure Smith.

Meredith and Anderson collected the songs and tunes from traditional players around the country, and made comments on the tunes, including notes about variations in versions played by different people.

So, Kerry Polka, Salmon Tails Up the River/Water, Ballydesmond #3. Same tune, different names, I guess.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 16 Mar 16 - 04:24 PM

On 22 Feb I said: "Also another discovery in my quest for answers: on The Red Roses for Me CD, the first track called Transmetropolitan has the tune called I'm a Man You Don't Meet Every Day at the beginning and end. This a song on their Rum, Sodomy and the Lash CD."

But after listening to the Transmetropolitan track a few times, I think that the snippet of tune at the beginning from 2 mins 50 secs to the end may be Dublin in the Rare Old Times, which makes sense because the Dublin song refers to places in Dublin and the Transmetropolitan song refers to places in London.

Also, I mentioned that I kept thinking of Yankee Doodle and I think that there is something about the Waxies Dargle track, also on the Red Roses CD, which sort of reminds me of the YD tune. Similar rhythm and/or chord progression, or something like that.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 11:48 AM

Re Transmetropolitan, you're right Helen, it sounds like a quote from A Man You Don't Meet Everyday at the intro. I'm not familiar with Dublin in the Rare Old Times but I've always loved that melody the Pogues use to finish up.

On St. Pat's Day I was fortunate to play with some excellent Irish musicians who were over here to gig around the holiday. I started playing The Recruiting Sergeant (the one off IISFFGWG) and they fell right in with it. It turns out they recognized the melody as the jig The Peeler and the Goat.

Bit of thread drift but click here for a different Recruiting Sergeant done by The Levellers with The Copper Family that they recorded for War Child.org. It sounds like a couple of bars of Mairi's Wedding at the beginning of the intro. I can't stop singing this one. Warning, this video is a bit bloody.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: Helen
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 12:54 AM

Hi gillymor,

This is the late great Ronnie Drew, from The Dubliners, singing
Dublin in the Rare Old Times

Dublin in the Rare Old Times - a more traditional arrangement by The Dubliners

It's a beautiful song.

By the way, my Great Grandmother was a Drew whose father came to Oz from Ireland, so I'm hoping I'm related to Ronnie Drew somehow. LOL

I just found this on YouTube too:

Irish Rover performed by The Dubliners and The Pogues

I'll listen to The Levellers. It's funny, because the tune that The Pogues called The Kerry Polka on the 5 CD boxset I bought recently, also starts with a phrase which sounds like the beginning of Mairi's Wedding.

Helen

Subject: RE: Origins: The Pogues e.g Hell's Ditch instrumental
From: gillymor
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 07:54 PM

I gave "Dublin in the Rare Old Times" a listen and it sounds like you're right, Helen. That's a nice song but, uhh, given the possibility of your common ancestry, you don't sound like Ronnie Drew, do you? :)
The Irish Rover is one of the few of those old pub songs I never tire of hearing, especially that version by the Dubliners/Pogues.