BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 03:50 AM

Seems to me that Jerusalem is a big impediment to any sort of two-state resolution, since the city is important to all the world. Seems to me that the walled Old City ought to be an international city, property of no one, perhaps as a United Nations UNESCO Heritage Site. Then West Jerusalem could be capital of Israel, and East Jerusalem of Palestine.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 10:29 PM

I think our Armenian Israeli tour guide would verify what you say, Steve. He said all non-Jews in Israel are second-class citizens. The standard of living is quite good for everyone, but Arabs and others simply do not have the same rights and status that Jews have. He acknowledged that the Jewish Israelis do a lot of their "dirty tricks" to maintain control in the Knesset because they fear that if they didn't they wouldn't survive - but still and all, mistreatment of non-Jews in Israel is the rule, not the exception - as is oppression of Arab Palestinians.

So - my question is: how can the Jewish Israelis maintain their own security in a way that does not oppress non-Jews? It seems impossible, but somebody has to find a way. It seems to me, that Jewish Israelis need their Arab population to maintain prosperity while moving away from dependence on U.S. subsidies - but how can that be made to work?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 08:56 PM

Grrr. The software will let me do dollar signs but not pound signs. I've been discriminated against!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 08:54 PM

I've got another £1600 to pay for those windows still, Joe, and that's just the last third of the total. The Israeli ladies are safe for a little while longer yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 08:51 PM

Three points about what follows,which is from wiki.

First, it's a boring read. Sometimes you have to wade through boring things to tease out the reality of the situation. The reality appears to be that bobad's claim that the aim is for full equality for Palestinians in Israel is poppycock.

Second, a lot of the stuff is a good few years out of date.

And third, in connection with the last point, there have been some improvements for Arabs in Israel, largely for better-off ones. I'm sure that someone disagreeing with the tenor of this post will jump in and, hopefully, provide the facts of the matter. But, substantially, what I've pasted below is, I believe, a reflection of the state of inequality in Israel.

And I do recognise that every country on Earth has too much inequality. In Israel's case, it seems that inequality between Jews and Arabs is very sharp and many points of it need a fair bit of explaining. Not all of it is the result of deliberate discrimination, but a lot of it definitely is. Read on if you have the strength.

In 2005, of the 40 towns in Israel with the highest unemployment rates, 36 were Arab towns.According to the Central Bank of Israel statistics for 2003, salary averages for Arab workers were 29% lower than for Jewish workers. Difficulties in procuring employment have been attributed to a comparatively low level of education vis-a-vis their Jewish counterparts, insufficient employment opportunities in the vicinity of their towns, discrimination by Jewish employers, and competition with foreign workers in fields, such as construction and agriculture.Arab women have a higher unemployment rate in the work force relative to both religious and secular Jewish women. While among Arab men the employment was found to be on par with Jewish men, 17% of Arab women were found to be employed. This puts the Arab employment at 68% of the Israeli average. The Druze and Christian Arabs have higher employment than Muslims.

Further, due largely to improvements in health care, the Arab infant mortality rate dropped from 32 deaths per thousand births in 1970 to 8.6 per thousand in 2000. However, the Bedouin infant mortality rate is still the highest in Israel, and one of the highest in the developed world.

In 2003, the infant mortality rate among Arab citizens overall was 8.4 per thousand, more than twice as high as the rate 3.6 per thousand among the Jewish population. In the 2002 budget, Israel's health ministry allocated Arab communities less than 0.6% of its 277 m-shekel (?35m) budget (1.6 m shekels {?200,000}) to develop healthcare facilities.

In 2001, Human Rights Watch described government-run Arab schools as "a world apart from government-run Jewish schools." The report found striking differences in virtually every aspect of the education system.

In 2005, the Follow-Up Committee for Arab Education said that the Israeli government spent an average of $192 a year on Arab students compared to $1,100 for Jewish students. The drop-out rate for Arabs was twice as high as for Jews (12 percent versus 6 percent). There was a 5,000-classroom shortage in the Arab sector.

According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the occupied territories, "Israeli Arabs were underrepresented in the student bodies and faculties of most universities and in higher professional and business ranks. Well educated Arabs often were unable to find jobs commensurate with their level of education. According to Sikkuy, Arab citizens held approximately 60 to 70 of the country's 5,000 university faculty positions."

Arab educators have long voiced concerns over institutionalized budgetary discrimination. An August 2009 study published by the Hebrew University's School of Education claimed that Israel's Education Ministry discriminated against Arabs in its allocations of special assistance for students from low socioeconomic backgrounds and the average per-student allocation at Arab junior high schools was one-fifth the average at Jewish ones. This was due to the allocation method: funds were first divided between Arab and Jewish school systems according to the number of students in each, and then allocated to needy students; however, due to the large proportion of such students in the Arab sector, they receive less funds, per student, than Jewish students. The Ministry of Education said it was discontinuing this method in favor of a uniform index.Ministry data on the percentage of high school students who passed their matriculation exams showed that Arab towns were ranked lowest except for Fureidis, which had the third highest pass rate (75.86 percent) in Israel.

Nearly half of Arab students who passed their matriculation exams failed to win a place in higher education because they performed poorly in the Psychometric Entrance Test, compared to 20% of Jewish applicants. Khaled Arar, a professor at Beit Berl College, believes the psychometric test is culturally biased: "The gap in psychometric scores between Jewish and Arab students has remained steady "at more than 100 points out of a total of 800" since 1982. That alone should have raised suspicions."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 08:36 PM

From what I hear, Steve, Bibi is known to be corrupt and will most likely go to trial soon after he leaves his office as Prime Minister. I don't think you have anything to worry about.

Trouble is, our Armenian-Israeli tour guide says most Israeli Prime Ministers over the last thirty years have been corrupt and have gone to trial.

So, go on your trip - and be sure to try the Palestinian beer - TaybehGoldstar and Maccabee are the two favorite beers in Israel. I think I liked Taybeh best.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 07:54 PM

"Many countries, state jurisdictions, cities and universities have banned BDS as a thinly disguised anti-Semitic movement and have made it illegal."

Untrue. Hardly any countries have banned BDS. 21 states in the US have stated opposition to BDS and passed some form of legislature but these do not all necessarily amount to blanket "bans," and states are not countries in any case. A few city legislatures, and I mean a few, have passed laws banning BDS or some of their activities. The reasons for these decisions are very varied, but "thinly-disguised antisemitic movement" is rarely, if ever, expressed as one of them. The EU opposes the calling of sanctions against Israel but there is no ban. Israel has certainly banned BDS and has caused outrage by preventing BDS supporters from entering the country. What price free speech? There are plenty of Israelis who oppose what their regime is doing but they are not permitted to hear similar dissenting voices in their own country. I'll remember that next time somebody tells me what a mighty democracy Israel is. It's against the law in Israel to call for a boycott either of the country or of settlements. As individuals calling for boycotts are not allowed into the country, if Bibi reads my posts, Joe, that proposed holiday of mine will never happen!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 07:18 PM

ADL has, for many decades, obsessively collected mountains of information about any individual it sees as a threat, and that amounts to thousands of individuals. I wonder why. They bestowed great honour on Silvio Berlusconi, ignoring his totally corrupt character because he is such a stalwart friend of the Israeli state. Wow. Their claim that BDS has the aim of dismantling the state of Israel is utterly without foundation. To put it another way, Joe, it's a damned lie. But this is what they do. They pounce on any criticism of the actions or policies of the Israeli regime and, more or less automatically, condemn it as antisemitic. So yes, it is a highly disreputable organisation. That is not to say that they haven't done some good work to promote the cause of Jewish people, but they have routinely tarnished themselves as described. Even Mussolini made the bloody trains run on time.

Wiki: In 1989, the linguist and left-wing commentator and activist Noam Chomsky characterized the ADL as having lost entirely its focus on civil rights issues in order to become solely an advocate for Israeli policy; he held that the ADL cast all left-wing opposition to Israeli interests as antisemitism.

Wanna deny that?

Norman Finkelstein claims that organizations such as the Anti-Defamation League have brought forward charges of new anti-Semitism at various intervals since the 1970s, "not to fight antisemitism, but rather to exploit the historical suffering of Jews in order to immunize Israel against criticism".The Washington Post has noted that the ADL has repeatedly accused Finkelstein of being a "Holocaust denier", and that "these charges have proved baseless".

Just read their stuff!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 07:11 PM

1.Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall.

What Arab lands do you think are being referred to here?

2.Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality.

ALL citizens in Israel have full equality.

3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194.

The official BDS site states there are 7.25 million "Palestinian" refugees. Use your fucking head.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 06:45 PM

Where'd you get the two 3-point sets, Bobad?

Out of his arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 06:28 PM

The fact that ADL says "ouch" on behalf of Israel, does not mean that ADL is "disreputable"

No, Joe, but the fact that they misrepresent what the BDS folks are all about MOST DEFINATELY DOES!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 06:26 PM

I find this post to be problematic:

Thread #163483   Message #3902516
Posted By: bobad
28-Jan-18 - 07:52 PM
Thread Name: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem

The three main goals of the BDS movement targeting Israel are:

1. Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall.

2. Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality.

3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194.

1. All Arab lands is defined as; "from the river to the sea"

2. Irrelevant because it is codified in Israel's founding document and is in practice.

3. Everyone knows this would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state and that is the goal of the movement.

Many countries, state jurisdictions, cities and universities have banned BDS as a thinly disguised anti-Semitic movement and have made it illegal.

---

The first three points appear to come from some official source. They seem to be an accurate description of the goals of BDS - and they seem like reasonable goals.

The next group of three points attempts to explain the first three, but I find them to be misleading and unreasonable. Where'd you get the two 3-point sets, Bobad?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 06:08 PM

So, Steve says about the Anti-Defamation League: You're being just a tad naive, Joe. Just because that disreputable organisation has been going for a hundred years, it doesn't mean that it's respectable.

I think you're going a bit far, Steve. There's no question that is ADL and represents the Israeli point of view to Americans. BDS (Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions) is essentially a sanctions campaign. It's meant to hit Israel where it hurts - to push Israel toward more ethical conduct toward Palestinians. The fact that ADL says "ouch" on behalf of Israel, does not mean that ADL is "disreputable" or whatever other names Jim Carroll called it. In other words, ADL is calling BDS effective.

The fact that people or organizations make statements you disagree with, does not make them "disreputable." I don't always agree with ADL, but I've found them to be quite reputable, and to be honestly representative of Israeli and Jewish viewpoints.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 04:00 PM

while also seeking the elimination of the Jewish state.

Well, Robo's gone over to the side of the lunatics & advocates of "alternative facts"**.

Or maybe he's a Trump supporter.

Same difference.

** i.e., lies

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 03:15 PM

My post was clearly directed at robomatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 03:14 PM

What nonsense. There is no desire within the movement to eliminate the state of Israel and you know it. That is empty words intended to inflame. If I'm wrong, prove it. Show me any BDS publication or quote me one speech sanctioned by BDS that has called for it. I'll save you the trouble: there aren't any. BDS is an international movement. The people who support it get their information from many sources within their own countries and from online sources, among others, and they mainly live in countries which are democracies with free and open media. I support BDS and I get my information about what goes on in Israel from a multitude of sources, thank you very much, and my antennae are kept tuned for sites or publications that don't meet my requirements for free and factual non-tendentious reporting, whatever side they belong to. BDS is fully open about its aims and is in no way subversive, another lazy slur. You talk as if all the people who oppose the policies of the Israeli regime towards Palestinians are a bunch of half-wits who rely solely on electronic intifada. Well we don't. And yes, regime. If you act in discriminatory fashion against a section of your population and barricade almost two million people for over a decade in what amounts to an open-air prison, lock up people for months or years without charge or trial, evacuate families from their homes in order to build exclusive walled settlements for Jews only and build a wall that divides Palestinian farms and families, you are acting like any regime that was ever worthy of the accolade. Perhaps your problem is YOUR sources. They certainly don't appear to be giving you the information you need for you to come to even a remotely fair-minded judgement about what's going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 02:49 PM

"Calling a Democratically elected government a 'regime' "
Israel's behaviour earned it the title "regime" long before BDS
I read somewhere that the Nazis were elected democratically
BDS stands alongside the Anti Apartheid Movement and the opposition to what was happening in Vietnam as opponents to the behavior of "democratically elected governments"
The fact that the man found responsible for the Sabra Shatila massacre (by the Israeli enquiry, among others) went on to become Prime Minister of Israel shows exactly how reliable elected governments are as a guide to democracy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 01:44 PM

Interesting tactical distinction: Israeli opinions are legitimately diverse due to a diverse society. They have diverse sources. Their antagonists, including the BDS, are subversive. You get diverse opinions from the same sources. BDS will opine that they mean no 'harm' but only what the same rights for their charges while also seeking the elimination of the Jewish state. Sort of like wanting their own opinions AND their own facts. Calling a Democratically elected government a 'regime' is a tactic along those very lines, smearing the distinctions between Israel and her neighbor states which are glaringly obvious to all those with unshackled minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 10:10 AM

MORE OPINIONS from the same historian
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 09:55 AM

AN ISRAELI HISTORIAN'S OPINION
Dr. Ilan Pappe is a senior lecturer in the college of political sciences at the University of Haifa. He is also the head of the Emile Touma Institute for Palestinian and Israeli Studies, Haifa. Dr. Pappe is considered one of the new Israeli historians.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 09:25 AM

None of this addresses what is actually happening in Israel and what has always happened and it is to the shame of people who consistently defend Israel that they refuse to address facts and instead concentrate on the claimed "aims" of organisations like B.D.S. (this includes Joe, who so far has refused to respond to one single link that has been put up - not even to dismiss them as lies, as is the standard ploy)
The loss of land, the number of refugees, the destruction of homes, hospitals, schools..... and the number of civilians slaughtered by a well armed, well trained army, speak far louder than any hypothetical policies ever can
The plainest indication of who is the victim and who the perpetrator lies in the number of U.S. vetoes that have been necessary to keep Israel out of the International courts - without them, Israel would have been tried and found either guilty or not guilty of what they are accused of
Instead of facing trial, Israel has demanded the dismantling of these Courts   
That says all that needs to be said about the possibly outcome of any trial that should take place
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 09:24 AM

Still, as the ADL Web page on BDS says, at least a portion of BDS seeks "the demonization and delegitimization of Israel." That's a legitimate viewpoint, I think."

I completely disagree and that is exactly the kind of statement that feeds into attempts to make out any criticism AT ALL of Israel to be antisemitic. The BDS website front page states:

Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS) is a Palestinian-led movement for freedom, justice and equality. BDS upholds the simple principle that Palestinians are entitled to the same rights as the rest of humanity.

Israel is occupying and colonising Palestinian land, discriminating against Palestinian citizens of Israel and denying Palestinian refugees the right to return to their homes. Inspired by the South African anti-apartheid movement, the BDS call urges action to pressure Israel to comply with international law.

BDS is now a vibrant global movement made up of unions, academic associations, churches and grassroots movements across the world. Eleven years since its launch, BDS is having a major impact and is effectively challenging international support for Israeli apartheid and settler-colonialism.

The BDS movement has no interest in wiping Israel off the map or of criticising Jews because they are Jews. It is all about fighting the injustices meted out to Palestinians that I note you recognise. It calls for sanctions and boycotts to be applied in order to get the Israeli regime to stop doing the things that you tell me you find just as outrageous as I do. If you can find a single antisemitic statement on the BDS website or coming from anyone at all speaking on behalf of the movement, let's be having it. At least two people on this forum use easy accusations of antisemitism whenever we dare to criticise the actions of the regime. Don't fall into that same lazy habit. An accusation of antisemitism is a very serious matter and you should be prepared to defend making that accusation by way of presenting us with solid facts to back it up. If you've seen anything at all coming from BDS that appears to demonise or delegitimise Israel in general terms outside of the remit of the movement, telling us about it would be a start. That remit will clearly include criticism of the actions of the regime but will not include criticising Jews, their culture, their religion or their right to live in Israel or anywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 11:52 PM

Hi, Steve -
I admit that I was a little taken aback by some of the stuff I saw on the Website of the Anti-Defamation League. I've always thought of ADL as representative of "mainstream" Judaism. The Jewish Defense League has been thought of as the extremist organization.

Maybe it's unfair to judge an organization from just one page on its Website. The Home Page of ADL is more representative of how I view the organization: https://www.adl.org/. I think you would agree with most of the stuff you find there.

Still, as the ADL Web page on BDS says, at least a portion of BDS seeks "the demonization and delegitimization of Israel." That's a legitimate viewpoint, I think. There are elements of BDS that certainly seem anti-Semitic.

I tend to favor the Palestinians because they are clearly the underdogs in this disagreement, and my family has far more Arab and Palestinian connections than Jewish ones - but I have to try to understand the Jewish point of view, too. My sister has close connections with several families in Palestine, and she can tend to jump on me for being pro-Jewish when I see myself as just trying to be fair.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 09:32 PM

You're being just a tad naive, Joe. Just because that disreputable organisation has been going for a hundred years, it doesn't mean that it's respectable. From that link:

... However, the predominant drive of the BDS campaign and its leadership is not criticism of policies, but the demonization and delegitimization of Israel. BDS campaigns promote a biased and simplistic approach to the complex Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and present this dispute over territorial and nationalist claims as the fault of only one party: Israel...

...Increasingly, BDS campaigns are used by anti-Israel activists to attract attention to their message, particularly on college campuses where BDS initiatives draw students, faculty, campus organizations and administrations into a highly politicized and publicized debate.

Is BDS Anti-Semitic?

Many of the founding goals of the BDS movement, including denying the Jewish people the universal right of self-determination, along with many of the strategies employed in BDS campaigns are anti-Semitic. Many individuals involved in BDS campaigns are driven by opposition to Israel's very existence as a Jewish state.   Often time, BDS campaigns give rise to tensions in communities (particularly on college campuses) that can result in harassment or intimidation of Jews and Israel supporters, including overt anti-Semitic expression and acts. This dynamic can create an environment in which anti-Semitism can be express more freely.
   
And, all too often, BDS advocates employ anti-Semitic rhetoric and narratives to isolate and demonize Israel.

Spot any bias there, Joe? Any propaganda? Well I do. If you tell me that you can't see it, in the interests of balance, feel free to ask and I'll give you chapter and verse, though I know that you're more than clever enough to work it out for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 08:52 PM

Joe, you say BDS is a very peaceful and legitimate and effective response to Israel. Does that mean you agree with it's stated goals as outlined in my post of 28 Jan 18 - 07:52 PM?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 08:26 PM

Hi, Steve - well, Bobad's link is from the Jewish Anti-Defamation League, a respected organization founded in the U.S. in 1913. For the record, BDS means 'boycott, divestment and sanctions' against Israel. BDS, however, seems to me to be a very peaceful and legitimate and effective response to Israel.

The problem with all of this, is that there are two sides to this story, and both sides are right - and both sides are wrong.

There are certainly legitimate reasons to accuse Israel of "ethnic cleansing," although the term has overtones of propaganda because it's a "judgement term" and does not provide specifics or proof. I see that the pro-Israeli factions here have tried to blame the Arabs (particularly Jordan) for "ethnic cleansing," but their accusations date back to 1967 (and Israel and Jordan are at peace now).

But what outsiders consider "ethnic cleansing," Israelis consider to be a legitimate struggle for survival. After the horrors of the Holocaust and centuries of pogroms in Eastern Europe before that, the Jewish people finally have a home - and they feel their home is threatened by Palestinians who bomb Israel and fire rockets into Tel Aviv.

But it's also true that Israel has used extreme and unjust measures to respond to the threats against its security - bulldozing homes, imprisoning young Palestinians for unreasonable terms, building settlements in Palestinian areas, planning to deport refugees, and any number of unreasonable strongarm tactics.

I see a lot of posturing and propaganda from both sides up above, but I don't see any workable solutions. It's nice to find individual Arabs who support the Israeli side and individual Israelis who support the Arabs; but I'm afraid I think those individuals are simply traitors, like token blacks in the U.S. Republican Party.

I tried to stay away from the posturing and propaganda when I started this thread, to simply report was I was able to observe - and the reality I reserved was generally positive, on both sides. And although the problems in Israel are very serious, they sure seem easier than what I know of other Arab nations and what I observed myself in Egypt.

So, propaganda and accusations aside, what are the options available that would serve both sides well?

-Joe-

P.S. I looked up "Global Campaign to Legitimize Israeli Atrocies" and found nothing, even when I spelled "Atrocities" right. Must be another one of those made-up fraud things...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 08:21 PM

BDS always reminds me of BTK, as in the BTK Killer.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 08:04 PM

Even Norman Finkelstein a relentless critic of Israel and much to the chagrin of those who use him to legitimize their anti-Semitism, has charged that the BDS movement is a childish “cult” whose goal is to destroy Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 07:52 PM

The three main goals of the BDS movement targeting Israel are:

1. Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall.

2. Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality.

3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194.

1. All Arab lands is defined as; "from the river to the sea"

2. Irrelevant because it is codified in Israel's founding document and is in practice.

3. Everyone knows this would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state and that is the goal of the movement.

Many countries, state jurisdictions, cities and universities have banned BDS as a thinly disguised anti-Semitic movement and have made it illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 07:45 PM

Bobad: The Global Campaign to Legitimize Israeli Atrocies.

Look that one up, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 07:31 PM

Ok, Joe. Basically, BDS is an international campaign to sanction Israel for its misdeeds against the Palestinians. Bobad's link is to an extremist pro-Israel organisation that regards any attack at all against Israel as antisemitic. Your best bet is to google it and find a neutral source of information. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 07:10 PM

Here ya go Joe:

BDS: The Global Campaign to Delegitimize Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 07:02 PM

What's BDS? I see it in lots of posts, but have no idea what it means.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 06:45 PM

Nope. They can't help themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 06:44 PM

Don't react, chaps. He's not worth it, honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 06:41 PM

It doesn't take much to winkle them out does it Robo?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 05:36 PM

Which fold is the, Robo?

Obviously not the fold that denies or apologizes for the Bedouin genocide at the hands of Israel.

Sholom.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:21 PM

I once attended a lecture by a Holocaust survivor in honor of Paul Celan. In the question-and-answer period at the end of the lecture this gentleman was asked -Are you still a religious Jew- and the answer was:

-No, the Germans knew all the important Jewish dates and holidays and threw them in our faces.-
Welcome to the fold Greg F.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:09 PM

Quite an accomplishment considering the numbers the Israeli government annihialated, innit, Boo.

You should have posted this yesterday, considering the anniversary involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 01:50 PM

With a birth rate amongst the highest in the world, the Israeli Bedouin population has grown tenfold since the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. Today the Bedouin are almost three percent of the population of Israel, but in the stark Negev desert Bedouin make up one out of every four residents.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 12:41 PM

Israel's side of the Bedouin story.
"Yet a comparison of the situation of the Bedouin in Israel to that in Arab countries will show that Israeli Bedouin enjoy conditions that their brethren lack, mainly in two areas: welfare and land ownership."

"In January 2013, the Israeli government created a policy designed to solve a range of problems affecting Israel's Bedouin population. This January 2013 plan, named after then-minister Ze'ev Binyamin Begin, was created to enhance and expand technological and adult education, develop industrial centers, establish employment guidance centers, assist in bolstering Bedouin local governments, and improve transportation systems, centers of excellence for students and support for Bedouin women who want to work or even begin their own businesses.
The first Bedouin high-tech company in Israel, Sadel Technologies, was cofounded by Ibrahim Sana, a Bedouion, and his two Arab-Israeli business partners. Sadeltech provides their clients with services including but not limited to: mobile app development, web application development and software quality assurance. Most of the employees at Sadeltech are Bedouins who have graduated from computer science programs at Israeli universities and have a tough time finding work; their first Jewish employee was hired in early 2016. "

"The National Health Insurance Law (NHIL) which took effect on January 1, 1996 considerably improved health services for about 30% of the Bedouin population who had not belonged to a sick fund. According to the NHIL, every resident is entitled to a basket of health services provided by clinics, specialists and hospitals.
Mother-and-child care centers provide health education, check-ups monitoring development and immunization. Today, hardly any Bedouin women give birth at home; going to hospital makes the mother eligible for a grant from the National Insurance Institute and provides unaccustomed pampering."
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-bedouin-in-israel#negev

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 12:24 PM

Has Corbyn made a claim about ethnic cleansing

Not in regard to Israel, no.
Neither he, nor the Labour Party nor any party in any democracy on Earth has.

You and Steve believe such shit but no democratic government or party does.
Only ant-Israel extremists like you two.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 11:16 AM

2So Steve also accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing."
That seems to have blown up in your face, doesn't it
Has Corbyn made a claim about ethnic cleansing - it seems to me he belives there is a different way of dealing with it
Why don't you either answer the points incited of hiding behind people who don't support BDS or just go away here
First Steve,then Corbyn - who you have accused of being leftie extremists at one time or the other
"Who shares them?"
How about every human rights group on teh planet and all the aid agencies that saw the results of Israeli brutality
Who shares your view? - Donald friggin' Trump - that's who
Are you really as thick as you appear to be?
No more Keith - just piss off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 10:52 AM

So Steve also accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing.
He also supports BDS.
That means that both of you have more extreme views than Labour and Jeremy Corbyn.

You are entitled to your extreme views, but that is what they are.
Who shares them?
Iran? Yes.
Saudi?? Yes.
Any party in any democratic country?
No. They are just extreme views not to be taken seriously by informed people.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 06:29 AM

"Steve has chosen not to support you by saying that he accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing."
As he just pointed out, he said nothing of the sort, but beside the point anyway
You scurry behind anything that resembles a way to avoid the points that have been put up
It is despicable to use other members of this thread one against the other rather than answer direct points
You have the evidence, counteract it with evidence of your own rather than trying to assemble an army of imaginary friends - that's what children do when they feel alone
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 05:21 AM

Well, Keith, I do post a lot to this board but I don't leap in at every juncture at your behest. Your remarks about my attitude to Jim's remarks are completely out of order. I will say or not say what I like and you do not get to jump to conclusions when I choose to say nothing. Mostly, when I say nothing it's either because I have a life to live beyond these shores or because I've probably said it a hundred times before. On ethnic cleansing, a term we shouldn't too easily resort to, I regard the treatment of the Bedouin in the Negev as an egregious example of it. As for settlement building, certainly there are areas that have been cleared for exclusive Jewish occupation. In the long term that is making a two-state solution unviable, and a single state is unpalatable to the Israeli regime for the demographic reason Joe has stated and the fact that a single state would no longer be able to be called a Jewish state. What that adds up to is that successive Israeli regimes haven't wanted a solution. They appear to want the Palestinians out. We'll have to see whether their actions in the long term move closer to achieving that. I would hesitate to call it ethnic cleansing apropos of the occupied territories or parts of them until we see how things pan out in the future. But it looks like it's moving in that direction unless political or moral pressure can be put on the regime to stop the settlement building and even hand territory back and to desist from their attritional treatment of Gaza. That isn't looking likely unless wise people in America make aid to Israel conditional on precisely that, and the pro-Israel lobby will make damn sure that that won't happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:50 AM

Steve has chosen not to support you by saying that he accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing.
If all your links and jinks have failed to convince even him, then you have not convinced anybody.
Your views are so extreme that they are beyond the fringe of normal, reasoned discourse.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:17 AM

"How is any of that relevant to this discussion please?"
It's relevant to stopping you stooping to your usual level of maligning contributors to this thread with lies and attempting to set one member against the other - seems to have done the trick as you have now denied what you actually said - so let's move on

Israel is carrying on a policy of ethnic cleansing in order to drive out the Palestinians and move in yet more settlers - that is what the trouble is about and that is what you, Bobad, Bruce, and now Joe are defending are defending (I have no intention of responding to your forthcoming denials - our dialogue is over)
At least Bruce and Bobad have had the courage to say whet they believe - that the Arabs have no claim to the territory they occupy as the scriptures say it belongs to the Jews - that sums up perfectly the argument the Israelis have been hiding behind to excuse their atrocities - it was stated over and over again by settlers interviewed by Simon Schama in his series 'History of The Jews a couple of years ago when Mike Grovenor Myer was a valued contributor to this forum.
A recent survey in Israel has found that hald the Israeli population want the Palestinians ethnically cleansed out of the territory (The Jerusalem Post says so, so you can't dismiss it as 'Antisemitic propaganda' as you usually do)
You have denied every act of inhumanity, every war crime, every atrocity that Israel has carried out
Joe opened this thread to paint an anodyne picture of what is happening in Jerusalem and you have resorted to your old ploy that there cant be ethnic cleansing because the Governments who stayed silent about Vietnam, the atrocities of the oil wars and now the atrocities still being committed by Assad and Russia in Syria and the ethnic cleansing in Myanmar haven't said anything about it (not that they have denied that ethnic cleansing isn't taking place - just political silence)
If theser countries didn't believe Israel to be guilty that would publicly announce that Israel as being maligned
As it is, only the U.S. have leaped to Israel's defence with around 100 U.N. vetoes which have kept Israel from being tried for war crimes and crimes against humanity
The facts of Israel's policy are obvious and some of the most vociferous opponents to it are Jews who, according to the Regime, have become "self-hating" liars and Jewish antisemites
To criticise Israeli policy is to be Antisemitic - even the ISRAELI MINISTER OF JUSTICE has said so
Making any Government immune to criticism in this way is fascism, pure and simple
That is what has happened to Israel under an extremist right wing administration
These administrations have destroyed the dream of a Jewish homeland and have turned it into a nightmare
Discuss it honestly instead of making extremist excuses of your own (that is what your "silence of politicians" argument - political extremism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 02:19 PM

your claim that all muslim males are implanted to rape underage women

As you know because we have been over it hundreds of times over the last seven years, I made no such claim.
How is any of that relevant to this discussion please?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 01:59 PM

"The accusation Steve did not complain about were yours about ethnic cleansing, nothing else."
You are ar to fond of setting one member against the other Keith - doesn't matter - you provide an excellent example fo the typse of slimeballs who support mas killing and spread hate claims about implanted communities
Just keep your shit off this forum
"Once again you resort to lies and abuse, "
Do you really ant me to dig up your claim once again - more than happy to oblige
Your mindless rant about which politicians support your foul cause makes my point for me adequately
I'm pissed off with you racists and bigots fouling up these discussions
Jim Carroll