|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Richie Date: 13 Mar 18 - 03:21 PM The last two versions of Child 2 are fragments, the first is missing the opening line, while the second is scribbled and has three disjointed stanzas: 1. James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/K, p. 12026 "Every rose grows" sung by Mrs Annie Morrison from The Hill, Evanston, Scotland (p.04608/p.05478), 1931 with music. Every rose grows bonnie and thyme Between the salt water and the sea sand Before ye can be a true lover of mine. 2. Carpenter MSS Reel 4, Box 2, Packet II. listed incorrectly as Roud 21093. "True Lover of Mine" George McDonald, from The Hill, Evanton, near Inverness, Scotland, 1931. Ye maun ploo me an acre of land As every rose bids bonny in time Between the salt water and the sea sand, Before ye can be a true lover of min, He maun sew for me a cameric shirt And bleach it on the green, Where grass never grew nor rain never fell She maun ploo for me an acre of land And turn it over with a peacock's feather * * * * Richie |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Richie Date: 13 Mar 18 - 03:02 PM Brian, Another way to find out is to use the main (Carpenter) search engine: https://www.dhi.ac.uk/carpenter/ginit.jsp?src=box2pac2.xml&id=p04803.0 This is the Fisher item: A Bunch of Green Holly and Ivy. Blunt has a copy with the same refrain with music. You can search: VWML Song Index with title or RN12 with title. It seems clear that the Fisher text was from "Miscellaneous Field Typescripts and Manuscripts" and not a recording. Every recording may not be on the site yet but if you use the online catalogue that should tell you if there is a recording. Some items are not listed properly -if you search RN12 Carpenter - not every item comes up. I had to search "True Love of Mine" to find one item. Richie |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 13 Mar 18 - 01:39 PM Brian again! While I remember, about the word Cather you were asking about above and Steve suggested might be a local name for the Calder. Lyle's notes to the song in Vol1 say: "..and evidently Crawfurd was responsible for substituting the River Calder (which runs through Lochwinnoch parish) under its old name of 'Cather', which occurs eg on the cover of a letter dated 1740 that was in Crawfurd's posession and is now in Paisley Central Library" Mick |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Brian Peters Date: 13 Mar 18 - 11:14 AM Thanks again, Mick, I think I've got the hang of it now. Still no recording or tune from Mr Fisher, but you can't have everything. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 13 Mar 18 - 09:57 AM Brian You need Roud 21093. See Steve's notes above on his instigation of different Roud number for Acre of Land versions. So Roud:21093, Collecter: Carpenter, Performer: Fisher returns 3 entries. Mick |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Brian Peters Date: 13 Mar 18 - 09:49 AM Thanks, Mick. I'd worked out some of that, but not all of it. With your assistance I've now found at least one recording of 'Acre of Land' from an unknown man in Gloucestershire. However, when I search the Carpenter archive for Richie's last example, by entering Roud number = 12 and performer = fisher, I don't get any hits. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 13 Mar 18 - 09:12 AM If you want to search for a specific song, use the Advanced Search on the VWML Index Search Page. Use the 1st drop down (it shows All fields initially) to select eg Roud Number: 12 (or title or whatever you need to select the song), press + to get the next drop down and select Collector : Carpenter; press + again to get another drop down and select Source Contents: Audio. Then press Submit and that will get you any entries with audio (there's also a fragmentary audio too I think). Mick |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 13 Mar 18 - 08:44 AM Brian If you use this link JMC Index you can follow the tree to get to the recordings. Cylinders and Discs are the last 2 items in the initial tree. Tunnel down to a song and you'll get the cylinder in the information on the right. (I think you'll need to allow cookies to make it work and I can't seem to open items in a new tab). Mick |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Brian Peters Date: 13 Mar 18 - 07:55 AM That's a good version, Richie. I can't see a tune for it in the VWML archive, but TBH I'm finding that quite difficult to use since the revamp, and I haven't sussed out how to get to the Carpenter recordings. Any advice appreciated. |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: A BUNCH OF GREEN HOLLY AND IVY From: Richie Date: 12 Mar 18 - 08:21 PM Hi, This is the longest Carpenter Collection variant (22 stanzas) of "Sing Ivy" or "My father left me an acre of land" (Roud 21093). From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/J, pp. 06907-06908, the last stanzas are confused. A Bunch of Green Holly and Ivy- sung by Daniel Fisher of Weston Newbury, Berkshire, about 1880 when he was a little lad. My father he died and left me some land, Sing ivy, sing ivy, My father he died and left me some land With a bunch of holly and ivy. I ploughed it up with three buck horns I sewed it up with three peppercorns, I harrowed it with a bramble bush, I rolled it down with me rollin' pin, My carn came up and it did look well I rolled it down with me rollin' pin, I reaped it down wi' me little pen knife I shocked it up in nine little shocks, I builded me a rick in a mouse's hole, I drawed it to a rick with an old blind rat, I thrashed it out with three bean stalks I winnowed it out with the tyale[1] o' me shirt. I measured it in an old quart cup, I sacked it up in three mice skins, I sent it to market with a team o' rats, The team of rats came rattling back The whip did crack on the old rat's back The money came back in the corner of the sack, The miller came back with a broken back The team of rats came rattling back Sing ivy, sing ivy, The whip did crack on the old rat's back, With a bunch of holly and ivy. The team of rats came rattling back Sing ivy, sing ivy, The bells did ring and the carter did sing, With a bunch of holly and ivy. 1. Original spelling for "tail" * * * * Richie |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: TRUE LOVE OF MINE From: Richie Date: 12 Mar 18 - 08:16 PM Hi, Just when I though I had all the Carpenter versions of Child 2 another pops up: From:(VWML Song Index SN24452) Carpenter Collection 04816 True Love of Mine- sung by Mrs. Mary Stewart Robertson of New Deer, about 1930 learned from Christina Stewart Robertson 50 years ago. Come a' you young maids that's sittin' by me, Let every rose grow merry in thyme, Ye'll buy tae me a white holland shirt, An saw [sow] it a' up wi' oot[1] needle work, Afore ye be a true lover of mine. Ye'll wash it up in yonder well Where water ne'er sprung nor dew ne'er fell. An' ye'll dry it on yonder thorn The bush that was rotten before Adam wis born. Ye'll buy tae me an acre o' land Atwen the saut water and the sea sand, Ye'll plow it up wi' ae ram's horn An saw [sow] it a' doon wi' a pill o' corn. An' ye'll shear it doon wi' a peacock's feather, An' ye'll mak it weel up wi' the sting o' an adder [tongue of an adder] __________________ 1. written in by hand looks like, "without" * * * * Richie |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Mar 18 - 03:06 PM The jump from riddle tasks to inheritance and first person, together with the new refrain, must have been, I feel, a conscious act probably by one person, as these are all big jumps. Changing refrains are common in ballads even where they use proper words, but the whole meaning and purpose of the song changes in 'Sing Ivy' types. What can be seen is a lengthening of the progression of tasks in Elfin Knight types before this takes place. I think it probably happened some time in the middle of the 19thc. |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: EVERY ROSE BLOOMS From: Richie Date: 12 Mar 18 - 01:36 PM Hi, My title. Here's a version from the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, p. 04818. which has the second set of tasks only- similar to "Sing Ivy." This could be considered a cross-over form. Every Rose Blooms- sung by Mrs. Watson Gray, Corner house East st. Fochabers, Morayshire Scotland heard over 50 years ago from old man William Stuart of Glenlivet. Ye maun has an acre o' land Every rose blooms bonnie in thyme, Atween the sae and the saut sea strand Afore ye be a true lover o' mine. Ye maun ploo it wi' yon ram's horn. And saw [sow] it with ae grain o' corn. Ye maun shear it wi' a peacock feather, An' bind it up wi' a sting o' an ether [tongue of an adder] Ye maun carry it hame on yon snail's back, An' cover wi' a rainbow for a thack. * * * * Richie |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Steve Gardham Date: 11 Mar 18 - 03:51 PM With this amount of detail I can't conceive of a situation where the sets of tasked would be reversed without a deliberate conscious act involved. You say THE Irish variant. Are there other examples? |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Steve Gardham Date: 11 Mar 18 - 02:42 PM Interesting version with the tasks reversed. |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: ROSEMARY FAIR From: Richie Date: 11 Mar 18 - 12:34 PM Hi Steve, I agree with the new Roud number and think perhaps I should list it as an appendix. One of the intermediate songs (snail/mouse's tail) with some associated text, although a version of Roud 12, Child 2 is the Irish variant: Rosemary Fair as sung by Frank Harte on the album: Dublin Street Songs/ Through Dublin City (1967) Listen Rosemary Fair - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2uBvoEAfVE You may go down to Rosemary Fair, Every rose grows merry and fine, And pick me out then the finest boy there, And I will make him a true love of mine. Tell him to get me an acre of land, Every rose grows merry and fine, Between the salt sea and the salt sea strand Or he cannot be a true love of mine. Tell him to plough it with a ram's horn, Every rose grows merry and fine, And sow it all over with one grain of corn, Or he cannot be a true love of mine. Tell him to reap it with a cock's feather, Every rose grows merry and fine, And bind it all down with strappings of leather, And I will make him true lover of mine. And tell him to drive it home on a snail, Every rose grows merry and fine, And thresh it all out with a mouse's tail, And I will make him a true lover of mine. Tell him to bring it to Rosemary Fair Every rose grows merry and fine And when he arrives, they'll be nobody there And he cannot be a true lover of mine. Since you have been so hard upon me, Every rose grows merry and fine; I'm going to be, as hard upon thee If you wish to be a true lover of mine. You may go down to Rosemary Fair, Every rose grows merry and fine And pick me out then the nicest girl there And I will make her a true lover of mine. Tell her to send me a cambric shirt, Every rose grows merry and fine Made without needle or needlework, Or she cannot be a true lover of mine Tell he wash it in yonder well, Every rose grows many and fine; Where water ne'er rose and rain ne'er fell, And I will make her a true lover of mine. Tell her to dry it on yonder thorn, Every rose grows merry and fine, Where none never grew since Adam was born, And I will make her a true lover of mine. Richie |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Steve Gardham Date: 10 Mar 18 - 10:06 AM Hi Richie, it was me who suggested to Steve 'Acre o' Land' should have its own number, even though there are a few interim versions that clearly demonstrate the evolution from one song to the other. The main reason for a separate number was that 'Acre o' Land' had completely lost its riddling/task function and by the 19th century had its own autonomy and was extremely popular. Just about every farm hand in East Yorkshire knew a version when I started recording in the 60s. There are 3 quite different versions on our website www.yorkshirefolksong.net that came from the same place within a few yards of each other. |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: SING HOLLY AND IVY From: Richie Date: 10 Mar 18 - 12:12 AM Hi, This is a longer "Sing Ivy" version from the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/J, p. 06906: Sing Holly and Ivy- sung by Jim Cox of Hamptonfields, Minchenhampton about 1930. My father he keepit a team o' rats, Sing ovey, sing ivy. I ploughed his land with that team o' rats With a bunch of green holly an' ivy. He worked it all down with this team o' rats, He sowed his seed with a little sidlip, He worked it all down with this team o rats He rolled it all down with this team o' rats, he ripped his corn with his little penknife, He hauled it all home with this team o' rats He built his mow in a mouse's hole, He thrashed his corn with his little fan, He winnowed it with his little fan, He stacked it up in his old box hat, He sent it all out with this team o rats, His team o rats come a-rattlin' back, * * * * Richie |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: GREEN HOLLY AND IVY From: Richie Date: 10 Mar 18 - 12:05 AM Hi, Some of the "tasks" in the last post are similarly found in "My father left me an acre of land," which uses the "Sing ivy" first refrain. This related Ballad Type has a different Roud number, 21093, and should be regarded as a song or nursery rhyme which has been created from the second set of tasks. It could be an appendix, however, I'm listing those versions under Child 2 as Ballad Type IV. There are several "Sing Ivy" texts collected by Carpenter. This one is from the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, p.04819. Green Holly and Ivy- sung by Edward Newitt of Oxfordshire, England about 1930. My father he left me an acre of ground, Sing inc, sing inc, sing ivy. My father he left me an acre of ground, With a little green holly and ivy. I ploughed it up with a team of cats, &c I sowed it down with some caraway seed, &c I cut it down with the wing of a flee, &c I carted it home on a mouse's back, &c * * * * Richie |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: KING ETHELRED AND CHEELD VEAN From: Richie Date: 09 Mar 18 - 11:55 PM Hi, This is by far the most unusual version of Child 2 in the Carpenter Collection titled, King Ethelred & Cheeld-Vean (little child) recited (or/and sung?) in Cornwall. From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, p. 04807; also Atkinson 1998, p. 436, see also p. 438, Kloss. A brief excerpt of a bio from Wiki follows. Wiki: Ethelred or Æthelred (c. 966 – 23 April 1016), known as the Unready, was King of the English from 978 to 1013 and again from 1014 until his death. His epithet does not derive from the modern word "unready", but rather from the Old English unræd (meaning "poorly advised"); it is a pun on his name, which means "well advised". King Ethelred and Cheeld-Vean from Jim Thomas, MS , 14 Union Street, Camborne, Cornwall, England by c. 1930. Thomas, aged over 80 years was formerly one of Cecil Sharp's informants. [Spoken] In the days when Saxon kings invaded England Each one taking their sections for to rule Ethelred father north, Diddimus here in Cornwall The King approached a cheeld-vean (little child) and said: King Ethelred: "Good morning, fair maid" "Good morning, Sir", she said. "Can you make a shirt without a needle? Can you sew without a seam? Can you wash in a well where the water never stream? Can you dry in a hedge where the sun never shine?" Cheeld-Vean: "Yes, Kind Sir, that I can. "Can you plough with a ram's horn And harve[1] it with a bushy thorne, Saw it with a pepper dredge, In a field without a hedge, And mow it in a mouse's hole, And trash it with a shoesole, Do it all and not complain; Then come to me again And you shall have your shirt made." ________________________ 1. harvest |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: CAMERIC SARK / CAMBRIC SHIRT From: Richie Date: 09 Mar 18 - 11:36 PM Hi, This is an early version of Child 2, my title, from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/J, p. 06902: Cameric Sark- sung by Alexander Brown of Anchor Cottage, Land street, Rothes (Moray) Scotland. Heard about sixty years ago, dated c.1870. As I was a walkin' early one day, Where every rose sprung bonnie an' thyme, It's there I met a bonnie fair may, An' fain wid she be a true lover o' mine. CHORUS: True lover o' mine, true lover o' mine An' fain wid she be a true lover o' mine. Ye'll mak unto me a cameric sark withoot ony stichin' nor yet needle waurk, Syne since ye've asked this question o me, Where every rose sprung bonnie an' thyme, But I've got something to speir at ye, Afore ye can be a true lover o mine. Ye'll ploo unto me an acre o land Atween the saut sea an' the strand, Ye'll ploo it all ower wi' a ram’s horn, And saw [sow] it all ower wi' a seed o corn, "We'll cut it all doon wi' a peacock's fether, An' ye'll bind it up wi' the sting o an ather [adder]. So when ye've finished all yer waurk Ye'll come unto me, an' ye’ll get yer sark, * * * * Richie |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: WHITTINGHAM FAIR From: Richie Date: 08 Mar 18 - 03:38 PM Hi, In a tip from Kloss's article I got a copy of Thomas Hepple's original Whittingham Fair MS which was "arranged" and published by Bruce and Stokoe in 1882. I noticed another somewhat similar song is "Newcastle Fair" c. 1810 attributed to James Stawpert, (b.1785? d.1814) which begins: Ha' ye been at Newcastle Fair And did you see owse o' great Sandy? Lord bliss us ! what wark there was there; And the folks were drinking of brandy. What is interesting is comparing the Hepple's original MS with the Stokoe version which drastically rewrites Hepple's version and does not credit him. A copy of the MS is on my website: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/whittingham-fair--thomas-hepple-alnwick-c1855-.aspx Below is a transcription of Hepple's original, The first set of tasks or questions (stanzas) is said to be three questions but is missing a stanza which was added by Stokoe. The last question in Hepple's MS is eliminated. The drastic changes may be indicative of editorial practices at that time. Both texts are presented below: Whittingham Fair- From Hepple's MS, c. 1855 1 'Are you going to Whittingham fair? Parsley, sage, grown merry in time Remember me to one that lives there; For once she was a true lover of mine. 2. 'Tell her to make me a cambric shirt, Parsley, sage, &c Without ever a seam or needlework, Then she shall be a true lover of mine. 3. 'Tell her to wash't in yonder well, Parsley, &c Where is never sprung, where never rain fell, Then she shall be &c 4. 'Three hard questions he's gotten to me, Parsley, &c But I'll match him with the other three Before he shall be a true lover of mine. 5 'Tell him to buy me an acre of land Parsley, &c Between the sea and the sea-sand, Then he shall be a true lover of mine. 6 Tell him to plow't with a hunting horn, Parsley, &c And sow it with the sickerly corn, Then he shall &c 7 Tell him to shear'd with the hunting leather, And bind[1] it up in a pea-cock feather. Then he shall &c 8 Tell him to trash it on yonder wall, Parsley, &c And never let one corn of it fall, Then he shall &c 9. After he has ended his work, Parsley &c Go tell him to come and to have his shirt, Then he shall be a true lover of mine. _______________ 1. Hepple writes "bind" twice an obvious error. ____________________ Whittingham Fair- Stokoe's text published 1882, which was "popular in the north and west of the county of Northumberland; usually sung as a nursery-ballad." 1 'Are you going to Whittingham fair? Parsley, sage, rosemary, and thyme Remember me to one who lives there; For once she was a true-love of mine. 2 'Tell her to make me a cambric shirt, Without any seam or needlework. 3 'Tell her to wash it in yonder well, Where never spring-water nor rain ever fell. 4 'Tell her to dry it on yonder thorn, Which never bore blossom since Adam was born.' 5 'Now he has asked me questions three, Parsley, sage, rosemary, and thyme I hope he will answer as many for me; For once he was a true-love of mine. 6 'Tell him to find me an acre of land Betwixt the salt water and the sea-sand. 7 'Tell him to plough it with a ram's horn, And sow it all over with one pepper-corn. 8 'Tell him to reap it with a sickle of leather, And bind it up with a peacock's feather. 9 'When he has done, and finished his work, O tell him to come, and he'll have his shirt.' * * * * Richie |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Steve Gardham Date: 06 Mar 18 - 12:16 PM If you put this alongside other concocted material SBG sent to Child such as 295B and the introduction to 'Gypsy Laddie' it puts some of the other unique material under heavy question. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Richie Date: 06 Mar 18 - 12:21 AM Hi, To be fair (although I did laugh at the concoction he gave to Child- see last post), I'll include Baring-Gould's notes from Songs of the West, No. 48 (1905 edition?) that deal with this subject, which I just found at Internet Archive (https://archive.org/details/SongsOfTheWest ). This play may be some form of mummers play since according to Baring Gould it's performed around Christmas. I do know that the ballad text (stanzas 1-4 and 15) and the reference to the play were sent to Baring-Gould and this single reference apparently supplied the info about the play. 48. The Lovers' Tasks. This very curious song belongs, as I was told, in Cornwall, to a sort of play that was wont to be performed in farmhouses at Christmas. One performer, a male, left the room, and entered again singing the first part. A girl, seated on a chair, responded with the second part. The story was this. She had been engaged to a young man who died. His ghost returned to claim her. She demurred to this, and he said that he would waive his claim if she could perform a series of tasks he set her. To this she responded that he must, in the first place, accomplish a set of impossible tasks she would set him. Thus was he baffled. "In all stories of this kind," says Professor Child, "the person upon whom a task is imposed stands acquitted if another of no less difficulty is devised which must be performed first." * * * * I must admit, I'm baffled too. The rest of his notes go on tangents to include other, different songs- which I'd rather not go over at this time :) Richie |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: THE LOVER'S TASKS From: Richie Date: 05 Mar 18 - 10:31 PM Hi Steve, Which brings us to the master of illusion- Sabine Baring Gould who sent the following version to Child which Sabine claimed was acted out almost like a mummers play by a girl and boy acting out the parts of the maid and her dead lover: From Sabine Baring-Gould Manuscript Collection (SBG/2/3/26). This bizarre composite version was sent to Child by Baring Gould about 1890 and was faithfully printed by Child in Additions and Corrections with the following note: Communicated by the Rev. S. Baring-Gould. "From the north of Cornwall, near Camelford. This used to be sung as a sort of game in farm-houses, between a young man who went outside the room and a girl who sat on the settle or a chair, and a sort of chorus of farm lads and lasses. Now quite discontinued." The dead lover represents the auld man. What Baring-Gould failed to mention to Child that it was actually three versions and the first version (stanzas 1-4 and 15) was from a different song!!! Somehow Baring Gould wed these songs together to form a spectral version of the Elfin Knight as a play starring the maid riddling with her dead lover who was impersonating the "auld man," the Devil or a demon spirit (some details follow). I assume the girl's dead lover, then asked the girl to perform the impossible tasks such as making a cambric sark-- while he circled around her chair, chanting the tasks as a ghost from the other world!!! Yes fact is stranger than fiction! David Atkinson reports that stanzas 6-14 were from Philip Symons of Jascobstowe, 1889 and another informant. These verses are Child 2, the other verses 1-4 and 15 are from Cornwall- which were acted out. Baring Gould writes that he didn't trust verses 1-4. However, in his MS Baring Gould wrote out a connecting stanza (the missing 5th stanza) and one for 16. So that somehow the two dissimilar ballads could be wed. Since Baring-Gould never had versions with missing stanzas- he always filled them in himself- it added a degree of authenticity to the version (in his MS the missing stanzas are, of course, filled in). Gilchrist in 1930 JFSS reports: Mr. Baring Gould (see his note on this song in Songs of the West) was informed that this ballad used to be sung in Cornwall as a dialogue between a young man and a girl. This dialogue may have begun abruptly, as in the Gammer Gurton's Garland (1810) version: "Can you make me a cambric shirt?" The young man left the room, to re-enter it in the character of the ghost of a dead lover, the girl remaining seated. Her spectral visitant sets her the impossible tasks rehearsed in the first part of the song, and but for her resourcefulness in countering his demands would, so it was understood, have claimed her and carried her off. So it would seem that where the meaning of the dialogue was still remembered the menacing and malevolent had their part in it. Baring Gould wrote: The following was sent to me from Cornwall — but I somewhat mistrust its genuineness in its present form. It was sent along with the "Tasks." I heard the "Tasks" from both a man of Jacobstow, & from another at Mawgan — but neither knew this former portion. Nevertheless, it may have some basis, though perhaps touched up. The Lover's Tasks- North of Cornwall: Camelford c. 1890. Sabine Baring-Gould Manuscript Collection (SBG/5/49) 1 A fair pretty maiden she sat on her bed, The wind is blowing in forest and town She sighed and she said, O my love he is dead! And the wind it shaketh the acorns down 2 The maiden she sighed; 'I would,' said she, 'That again my lover might be with me!' 3 Before ever a word the maid she spake, But she for fear did shiver and shake. 4 There stood at her side her lover dead; 'Take me by the hand, sweet love,' he said. 5. . . . . . . . . . . 6 'Thou must buy me, my lady, a cambric shirt, Whilst every grove rings with a merry antine And stitch it without any needlework. O and thus shalt thou be a true love of mine 7 'And thou must wash it in yonder well, Whilst, etc. Where never a drop of water in fell. O and thus, etc. 8 'And thou must hang it upon a white thorn That never has blossomed since Adam was born. 9 'And when that these tasks are finished and done I'll take thee and marry thee under the sun.' 10 'Before ever I do these two and three, I will set of tasks as many to thee. 11 'Thou must buy for me an acre of land Between the salt ocean and the yellow sand. 12 'Thou must plough it o'er with a horse's horn, And sow it over with one peppercorn. 13 'Thou must reap it too with a piece of leather, And bind it up with a peacock's feather. 14 'And when that these tasks are finished and done, O then will I marry thee under the sun.' 15 'Now thou hast answered me well,' he said, The wind, etc. 'Or thou must have gone away with the dead.' And the wind, etc. 16. . . . . . . . . . . * * * * Richie |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Steve Gardham Date: 05 Mar 18 - 05:30 PM Compounding the problems caused by the publishing editors editing is the fact that their contributors in various stages were also editing. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Richie Date: 05 Mar 18 - 05:03 PM Hi, I compared 'Claret Banks' to 'Cathar' and neither seemed to be a well-known place. Motherwell has "nor" instead of "than" which seems odd, also he has "pies" instead of "peas" which even if it's a slang doesn't seem to work. He also has "And Clootie's waur" where Crawford has "the Fiend is waur[worse]." The "Humours of Love" broadside is missing the opening stanza. It has Cambrick which wasn't known much in England or Scotland before 1770. The earliest version with the herb refrains is Kinloch's (c. 1777)from Mary Barr and it has Holland sark. Richie |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Steve Gardham Date: 05 Mar 18 - 04:23 PM Fairly general stuff on Crawfurd. I think I remember reading either in Lyle or one of the books on Motherwell that Crawfurd was fond of Scottifying English pieces. I think what it amounts to is he would collect a song in Standard English locally and then, to make it more tempting to Motherwell, Scottify it. I'm always very careful with material that comes from being paid to go out collecting. The temptation must be there, and I include Carpenter in that but as I haven't been through the material yet in Carpenter I reserve judgment. I have seen one bit of jiggery pokery with Carpenter's stuff but that doesn't mean he was the perpetrator. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Brian Peters Date: 05 Mar 18 - 11:54 AM "is 'Cather' a local/poetic name for the Calder which flows through Lochwinnoch?" Interesting idea, Steve. I probably can guess your attitude to Crawfurd's material, but if you've anything specific to add I be happy to hear it. I have seen the Chambers 'Tempted Leddie' with the cantefable bookends. I thought that and Crawfurd were the only examples, hence my interest in any corroboration from Kinloch. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Steve Gardham Date: 05 Mar 18 - 10:47 AM Brian, is 'Cather' a local/poetic name for the Calder which flows through Lochwinnoch? Localisation was one of the much-used methods of the Scottish editors. In this case I would say Crawfurd rather than Motherwell was the perpetrator. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Steve Gardham Date: 05 Mar 18 - 10:17 AM It's not in Kinloch's Ballad Book but there is a similar version in Chambers' Popular Rhymes of Scotland. Here the actual song is a straight English version which even mentions Bristol, just Scottified a little. The Devil only actually appears in the spoken introduction and at the end cantefable style. This could be an interim version between the English simple dialogue song and the Scottish introduction of the supernatural element. I'm sure you can guess what my attitude to stuff supplied by Crawfurd is. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Brian Peters Date: 05 Mar 18 - 08:14 AM "A comparison of the two texts by Motherwell and Crawfurd gives some insight into Motherwell's editing." Odd that he should change 'Claret Banks' to 'Cathar'. Anyone have an idea why? Talking of Mary MacQueen, she was also a source for 'The Deil's Courtship', another Devil Ballad, similar to 'The Keys of Canterbury' in form, which Child chose to reject. I've just noticed in Lyle's book that this ballad is also in Kinloch's MSS. Anyone have a copy of that, by any chance? |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Richie Date: 04 Mar 18 - 08:22 PM Hi, Yes Mick- Ty for the improvements- I agree. I have already rewritten what I just posted about the MacQueens. The curious thing was that two leading Scottish ballad sources (singer and collector) came to Ontario and nothing more was heard of their Scottish ballads. Since Mary moved to Utah with her daughter for a number of years, you'd think some relic would have emerged from the Utah hills, but no- nothing. She had over ten children and her brother had children too. Yes Steve, I've had the Deming 'Love Letter and Answer' 9 years ago but it was from Barry's reprint in British Ballads from Maine. Barry also had "Sulfur" and some extensive commentary about Child No. 1 in BFSSNE (a rare book of his Folk Song Society newsletters) which he edited until his death in 1937. I've had the Kloss and Edmund articles on my site for years-- so I've had "The Humours of Love" too, TY Richie |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 04 Mar 18 - 07:13 PM Richie - Just going back to Inter Diabolus Et Virgo for a minute. I think the 2nd line of [4] should be: If you wilt be true and mine henceforward. rather than beholden. I think the sense of holde is similar to its use into have and to hold The 2nd line of [22] should be just: I will speak no more with thee! The 2 negatives are a function of the Middle English and I don't think you need them in the translation. Mick |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Steve Gardham Date: 04 Mar 18 - 06:41 PM Richie, see my question of 3.36 |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Richie Date: 04 Mar 18 - 05:57 PM OK, Ok enough already :) I'm just mad about "Saffron"-- Donovan was right!! (I changed it back, see translation above- a few posts back) The proper color now is Mellow Yellow! Richie |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Richie Date: 04 Mar 18 - 05:53 PM Hi, I'm almost done with my headnotes to Child 1, a rough version is here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/english-versions-and-other-versions.aspx Here's an excerpt: C, "The Unco Knight's Wowing [Mysterious Knight's Wooing]" by Mrs. Storie of Lochwinnoch (dated c.1925) was taken by Child from Motherwell's MS. The text is the most complete traditional exemplar of the older original ballad. Scottish C, found in Motherwell's MS copy is now corroborated by another authentic copy from the same informant, Mary Macqueen Storie which was published in Crawfurd's Collection by Emily Lyle. Mary Ann Macqueen (also MacQueen, McQueen) was born in 1803 to parents Osbourne and Elizabeth (Copeland) McQueen of Kilbirnie, Ayrshire, Scotland and lived in Lochwinnoch, Renfrewshire. She married Willie Storie in 1821 at the age of 18. Crawfurd wrote "The same Mary Macqueen has a great number of auld ballads which I had fished out of her for Mr. William Motherwell" (Lyle 1975-1996/1: xxx). Her brother, Thomas was a poet and collected ballads for Motherwell. Curiously, one of the great Scottish ballad singers moved with her family to Ontario, Canada in 1829. Thomas MacQueen also moved to Ontario and was the founder and publisher of The Huron Signal newspaper until his death in 1861[]. That area is now known as Renfrew County after the Macqueen's home county of Renfrewshire in Scotland. For a time Mary Macqueen Storie moved to Utah (US) with her daughter, Elizabeth. Mary died in Renfrew County, Ontario in 1877. The "Unco Knight" of Child C is the Devil. Important is MacQueen's ending, which is a superstition found in ballads and rooted in the Bible[]-- if you call the Devil by name, he will flee from you. When the maid uses the Devil's name (the Fiend) in her answer to the last riddle, she wins the riddling contest and banishes him. 18 The Peas are greener than the grass Sing the claret banks tae the bonny broom An' the Fiend is waur than a woman's wuss[wish], An' ye may beguile a young thing sune. 19 As sune as she the Fiend did name Sing the claret banks tae the bonny broom He flew awa in a fierie flam, An' ye may beguile a young thing sune. A comparison of the two texts by Motherwell and Crawfurd gives some insight into Motherwell's editing. He changes for example "the Fiend is waur[worse]" to "And Clootie's waur." * * * * Richie |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 03 Mar 18 - 05:24 PM Saffron is the translation given by UMich ME Dict: Saffroun. Sulphur would be Sulphur/sulfre/solfre (and other). Mick |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Steve Gardham Date: 03 Mar 18 - 03:49 PM I'm with you Richard, but I think Richie just got his words wrong way round. He probably meant to say 'I changed 'sulfur' to 'saffron'. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Richard Mellish Date: 03 Mar 18 - 03:38 PM Richie, > I changed "Saffron back to "Sulfur". Just picking up on this one detail, it seems to me that saffron makes better sense, being an intense yellow rather than pale yellow. And saffron is the gloss in the document that Mick linked to. Saffron also had (and still has ) an associated industry; we still have a town in England called Saffron Walden; so it was something that a lot of people would have heard of, even if few could afford it. Whereas most people apart from alchemists would not have heard of sulphur by that name, though they might well have heard of "brimstone". |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Steve Gardham Date: 03 Mar 18 - 03:36 PM Richie, have you got the 18th century slip song version of Elfin Knight from the Madden Collection 'The Humours of Love'? Or the one printed by Deeming 'Love Letter and Answer'? |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Brian Peters Date: 03 Mar 18 - 02:42 PM "If anyone knows of an additional British version let me know" I daresay it doesn't really count count, but Harry Green's recitation 'The Pear Tree' (Veteran VT135CD) includes the 'Higher than the tree / Deeper than the sea' and 'Louder than the horn / Sharper than the thorn' riddles and answers, in a completely different context. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Richie Date: 03 Mar 18 - 11:41 AM Hi, I've finished the changes to Inter Diabolus Et Virgo. I changed "Saffron back to "Sulfur" which I had originally. "Looking" could be "Sight" or "Seeing," -- God's flesh could be "The Host" or "Holy sacrament." I have the British versions of Child No. 1, "Riddle Wisely Expounded" as: A*. "Inter Diabolus Et Virgo" acquired by Walter Pollard, of Plymouth, about 1445; the text is taken from Rawlinson MS. D. 328, fol. 174 b., Bodleian Library. Riddling contest between the maid and foul fiend (Devil). Child A* A. Riddles Wisely Expounded (The knight is mortal) with "The Maid's Answer" a1. "A Noble Riddle Wisely Expounded; or, The Maid's Answer to the Knight's Three Questions." Printed for F. Coles, T. Vere, I. Wright, and I. Clarke London, between 1674 and 1679. According to Barry, Aa was licensed, March 1, 1675. a2. "A Noble Riddle Wisely Expounded; or, The Maid's Answer to the Knight's Three Questions." Printed by Tho. Norris, at the Looking glass on London-bridge, about 1711. a3. "A Riddle Wittily Expounded" Pills to Purge Melancholy by Henry Playford, iv, 129, ed. 1719. "II, 129, ed. 1712." Child A. a4. "Captain Wedderburn's Courtship[sic]" Jamieson's "Popular Songs and Ballads," 1806. a5. "Lay the Bent to the Bonny Broom;" Dixon (from print) edited by Bruce and Stokoe, 1882. B. "The Three Sisters" from Davies Gilbert, Some Ancient Christmas Carols. London: John Nichols And Son, Second Edition, 1823, pp. 65-67. Child B is probably based on A. C. "The Unco Knicht's Wowing" Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 647. From the recitation of Mrs. Storie of Lochwinnoch. Child C. D. "Gar Lay the Bent to the Bonny Broom" from Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 142; dated c.1825. E. "There was a Lady in the West" traditional in Miss Mason's mother's family, the Mitfords, of Mitford, Northumberland. From Miss M.H. Mason's Nursery Rhymes and Country Songs, p. 31; sung in Northumberland. F. ["What's greener than the grass?"] fragment from Rev. William Findlay's MSS, I, 151, from J. Milne of Arbroath; dated c. 1865 but possibly later. From Additions and Corrections but not given a letter designation by Child. G. "A Knight (Old Riddle Song)- sung Thomas Smart (1838-1919) of Blunsdon St Andrew, Wiltshire, published in 1915. Collected by Alfred Williams. Wilts and Gloucestershire Standard, 16th October, 1915 p 2, Part 3, No. 1: Williams, A: Folk songs of the upper Thames, 1923, p 37. If anyone knows of an additional British version let me know, Richie |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Steve Gardham Date: 02 Mar 18 - 05:42 PM hold onto me henceforward. I like the economy of language in the 15th century version. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 02 Mar 18 - 04:36 PM Meant to add: I came across this thesis (1910) on archive: Riddles In German And English Folk Songs. (Haven't read it!). Mick |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 02 Mar 18 - 04:34 PM I think the sense is keep me (as husband) from this time forward. holden has many senses (ME Dictionary entry), but this seems to me the most likely. Mick |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Richie Date: 02 Mar 18 - 03:30 PM Hi, TY for your replies and now it's looking good. Who is yellower than Saffron? I'm just mad about Saffron, She's just mad about me Ans. (Donovan, Mellow Yellow) I've made corrections to the original- ty For "forward holde." Mick's source has "compact" and I'm not sure about that stanza and line: Hyf thou wolt be true and forward holde. If you wilt be true and forever mine." Anyone? Riohie |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Steve Gardham Date: 02 Mar 18 - 02:29 PM Great resource, Mick. I didn't fare too badly with the guesses. Safer/saffron. I should have got that one. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: Steve Gardham Date: 02 Mar 18 - 02:04 PM I can't find any translations so these are my guesses only wol/wolle I would give as 'will' wolt=wilt, again 'will' mote, I would say 'might' 'forward hold' 'hold by me' 'stand fast by me. 13 myyth 'might?' 14 'lend me wisdom to answer here right And shield me from the foul wight' (being) 17 'loukynge' 'looking' 'longing' (not love) 18 'God's flesh' as in religious ceremonies, breaking bread, body of Jesus etc. 22 'Now thou fiend' For 'nelle' see Child's Glossary, literally 'will not I speak no more with thee' Nice to now that double negatives were common in the 15th century just as much as today. |
|
Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 02 Mar 18 - 01:57 PM Richie - you'll find it glossed in Lyrics carols ballads - pdf file, page 75. Mick |
| Share Thread: |
