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Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4

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Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 3 (135) (closed)
Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 2 (129) (closed)
Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads (132) (closed)
James Madison Carpenter shanties (38)
Sir Patrick Spens in Madison Carpenter (6)
Help: James Madison Carpenter (6)


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Subject: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 02:23 PM

Hi,

Thanks to everyone who has helped on the previous three threads. This is Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 and we are starting on Carpenter versions of Lord Randal, Child 12, Roud 10. Here's an older version from Willie Mathieson who was also an informant for Grieg and Scottish School of Studies (1952 recording).

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/Q, p. 08582
Listen here: http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/fullrecord/18167/4

Lord Ronald- sung by Willie Mathieson of Denhead, near Turriff, as learned about 1890 from George Cruickshank.

1 "Where have you been wandering Lord Ronald, my son?
Where have you been wandering, my jolly young man?"
"I've been a- hunting, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, an' I fain would lie doon."

2 "Have you got any supper, Lord Ronald, my son?
"Have you got any supper, my jolly young man?"
"O yes, I've had supper; mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, an' I fain would lie doon."

3 "What had you for supper, Lord Ronald, my son?
What had you for supper, my jolly young man?"
"Black fishes wi spreckled bellies; mother mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, an' I fain would lie doon."

4 "Wha gae ye the supper, Lord Ronald, my son?
Wha gae ye the supper, my jolly young man?"
"My girl an' my sweetheart; mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, an' I fain would lie doon."

5 "I fear ye are poisoned, Lord Ronald, my son,
I fear ye are poisoned, my jolly young man,"
"O yes, I am poisoned; mother mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain would lie doon.'

6 "Where got ye the fishes, Lord Ronald, my son?
Where got ye the fishes, my jollie young man?"
"In my father's black ditches; mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain wad lie doon."

7 'What will ye leave to your father, Lord Ronald my son
What will ye leave to your father, my jolly young man?'
"My houses and land; mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain wad lie doon."

8 'What will ye leave to your mother, Lord Ronald, my son?
What will ye leave to your mother, my jolly young man?"
My gold box and rings; mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain would lie doon."

9 'What will ye leave to your brother, Lord Ronald, my son?
What will ye leave to your brother, my jolly young man?"
"My chest an' my clothing mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain wad lie doon."

10. "What will ye leave to your sister, Lord Ronald, my son?
What will ye leave to your sister, my jolly young man?"
"My purses an' silver; mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain would lie doon."

11 "What will ye leave to your sweetheart, Lord Ronald, my son?
What will ye leave to your sweetheart, my jolly young man?"
"A rope an' the halter, for to hang on yon tree,
An' a' that she'll get for the poisoning of me."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 06:43 PM

Hi,

Here's a short version missing the "will" stanzas ("What will ye leave") by Bell Duncan. From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/Q, p. 08574.

"Lord Ronald" sung by Miss Bell Duncan of Lambhill by Insch, Aberdeenshire about 1931.

1 "O Where hae ye been Lord Ronald, my son?
"O Where hae ye been, my gallant young man?"
"I've been a-courtin, mither, mak my bed soon,
For I'm weary wi' wanderin', an' fain wid lie doon."

2 "What gat ye for supper, Lord Ronald, my son?
What gat ye for supper, my gallant young man?"
"A dish o black fish, mither, mak my bed soon,
For I'm weary wi' wanderin', an' fain wid lie doon."

3. "Faur gat ye the fishes, Lord Ronald, my son?
Faur got ye the fishes, my gallant young man?"
"In her father's mossy ditches[1]; mither, mak my bed soon,
For I'm weary wi' wanderin', an' fain wid lie doon."

4. "I fear ye are poisoned, Lord Ronald, my son,
I fear ye are poisoned, my gallant young man."
"O yes, I am poisoned; mither mak my bed soon,
For I'm weary wi' wanderin', an' fain wid lie doon."
_______________

1. has "ditch" singular

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 10:51 AM

Hi,

Child 12A is of mysterious origin and appears to be a composite of two versions (the refrain changes after stanza 5 and doesn't change back). Is there any more info about this MS that Macmath found? I've dated it 1808 but even this is a guess. Since it's found with other items dated 1710 that date has also been attached to Child A (Child dates this early 1800s). The attribution by Child is: "From a small manuscript volume lent me by Mr William Macmath, of Edinburgh, containing four pieces written in or about 1710 and this ballad in a later hand. Charles Mackie, August, 1808, is scratched upon the binding."

The other issue is the plot, in Child A, Lord Randal has gone hunting and there meets his sweetheart, an unlikely encounter. Walter Scott, who gives a version from his daughter (Child D), thinks the name should be "Lord Ronald" and many of the Carpenter versions use "Lord Ronald."

This next fragmented Carpenter version is only the ending with the "will" stanzas. The transcription is sketchy so I've added (in brackets) a few missing lines, which I assume were sung but not written down. There is no recording.

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/K, p. 05616

    Lord Ronald- sung by Jean Barclay of Braefoot Cottage, Ythen Wells, collected about 1931.

"What'll ye leave to your father, Lord Ronald my son
What'll ye leave to your father, my handsome young man,"
"I'll leave my gray mare, mother mak my bed soon
[For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain would lie doon."]

"What'll ye leave to your mother, Lord Ronald my son,
[What'll ye leave to your mother, my handsome young man,"]
"I'll leave her my gowd watch, Mother mak my bed soon
[For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain would lie doon."]

What'll ye leave to your sister, Lord Ronald my son,
[What'll ye leave to your sister, my handsome young man,]
"I'll leave her my gowd ring, Mother mak my bed soon
[For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain would lie doon."]

What'll ye leave to your sweetheart, Lord Ronald my son
[What'll ye leave to your sweetheart, my handsome young man,]
I'll leave her arsenic and water, the thing she left me,
An' if that disna please her, she'll be hanged on a tree.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 05:13 PM

The Macmath Collection at Kirkudbright would make a great project for publication. The only person I know who has researched in there is Ronnie Clark who published the Elizabeth Sinclair Ms. I suspect it would take several researchers. I don't know of anyone in that area with the time, the resources and the motivation. I suspect he sent any material that was relevant to Child but it would be useful to read his correspondence to know his opinions on various aspects.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 09:20 AM

Re Macmath
There is a website re the MacMath Collection, but it appears to be devoted to locals performing some of the material. There is no evidence of serious research there which is a shame.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 10:00 AM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/163, Disc Side 157, 03:35

Young Rolland- sung by Douglas Homes of Bush Smithy, Auchteriess Scotland as learned from his grandmother Mrs. Homes

1 "O where hae ye been, young Rolland, my son?
O where hae ye been, my gallant young man?"
"O I've been a- hunting, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wanderin', and fain would lie doon."

2 "Have ye had any supper, Lord Rolland, my son?
"Have ye had any supper, my gallant young man?"
"O yes, I've had supper; mother, maka my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wanderin', and fain would lie doon."

3 "What had ye for supper, Lord Rolland, my son?
What had ye for supper, my gallant young man?"
"A plate of fresh fishes; mother make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wanderin', and fain would lie doon."

4 "What kind were those fishes, Lord Rolland, my son?
What kind were those fishes, my gallant young man?"
"Black backs and grey bellies; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wanderin', and fain would lie doon."

5 "I'm afraid ye've been poisoned, Lord Rolland, my son,
I'm afraid ye've been poisoned, my gallant young man,"
"O yes, I've been poisoned; mother make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wanderin', and fain would lie doon."

6 "What leave ye tee your mother, Lord Rolland, my son?
What leave ye tee your mother, my gallant young man?"
My houses and lands; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wanderin', and fain would lie doon."

7. "What leave ye tee your brother, Lord Rolland, my son?
What will ye leave to your brother, my gallant young man?"
"My horses and saddles, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wanderin', and fain would lie doon."

8 "What leave ye tee your sweetheart, Lord Rolland, my son?
What leave ye tee your sweetheart, my gallant young man?"
"A rope and the halter to hang on yon tree,
That's a' that she's worth for the poisonin' o' me."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 12:49 PM

Hi,

Looking at the roots of Child 12. Lord Randal was known in Verona, Italy in 1629 from a broadside "L'Avvelenato" (The Poisoned Man). Anyone know this where to find this broadside and a translation?

Here's the A version in d'Ancona, Poesia popolare italiana, 2nd ed., 1906, p. 124, taken down in the country near Pisa before 1906:

"Where supped you yestereve,
Dear son mine, noble and wise?"
   "Oh, I am dying,
    Ohime!"
"Where supped you yestereve,
My noble knight?"
"I was at my lady's
   I am sick at the heart,
   How sick am I!
   I was at my lady's,
   My life's at an end."

"What supper did she give you,
Dear son mine, noble and wise?"
"Oh, I am dying,
   Ohime!"
"What supper did she give you,
My gentle knight?'
"An eel that was roasted,
   Mother, dear mother;
   I am sick at the heart,
   How sick am I!
   An eel that was roasted,
   My life's at an end."

From: British Ballads and their Continental Relations- Gerould (ref. Gardham last thread). The ballad has not been known in France and the transmission is a mystery. Comments?


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 01:09 PM

Don't forget Gerould was writing in 1932. French versions may have come to light since then. As Gerould states, by that time only the Scandinavian and British ballads had been published in a systematic way.

Will send Crawfurd and Grieg Duncan shortly.

I haven't time to follow these up just now but in my foreign ballads index are the following relevant titles
Den Lillas Testamente (Swedish)
The Child's Last Wishes
Where have you been all the day (Irish)
O Dear Son of Mine (Welsh)
The Child's Last Will (Howitt)
The Child's Testament (Heywood)

Erich Seemann 'European Folk Ballads' 1967 pp80-89 should prove useful.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 01:25 PM

Hi,

It appears that only three lines of the Italian "Lord Randall" ballad were part the of broadside in Verona in 1629 (it was a collection of lines from various songs). As sung by a blind Florentine, Camillo, called "the Bianchino":

'Dov' andastu iersera,["Where did you go last night]
Figliuol mio ricco, savio e gentile? [My son, rich, wise and kind?]
Dov' andastu iersera'?"[Where did you go last night?"]

It's prefaced by these four lines which reveal some of the story:

"lo vo' finire con questa d'un amante [I want to end this with a lover]
Tradito dall' amata.[Betrayed by the beloved.]
Oh che l'è si garbata [Oh that is it is the kind]
A cantarla in ischiera: [To be sung altogether:]

This is a version called L'Avvelenato (The Poisoned) of which another fragment was collected in 1656 and longer complete versions in the 1860s. One text of L'Avvelenato, called, "incatenatura of the Cieco Fiorentino," ("the song of the blind Florentine" after Camillo's fragment, above) was given in "Renaissance in Italy, Volume 4" by John Addington Symonds, 1888. It was collected in Como about 1867 by Dr. G. B. Bolza. A translation follows the Italian text:

The identity between the two is rendered still more striking by an analysis of the several Lombard versions. In that of Como, for example, the young man makes his will; and this is the last verse:

Cossa lasse alla vostra dama,
Figliuol mio caro, fiorito e gentil,
Cossa lasse alla vostra dama?
La fórca da impiccarla,
Signora mama, mio cor sta mal!
La fórca da impiccarla:
Ohimè, eh' io moro, ohimè!

[17. "What will you leave your sweetheart,
Dear son so fair and noble?
What will you leave your sweetheart?"
"The gallows-tree to hang her;
O Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
The gallows-tree to hang her;
O woe is me! O woe is me! I die!"
]

The same version furnishes the episode of the poisoned hounds:

Coss' avi fa dell' altra mezza,
Figliuol mio caro, fiorito e gentil?
Cossa avi fa dell' altra mezza?
L' hó dada alla cagnòla:
Signóra mama, mio core sta mal!
L' hó dada alla cagnòla:
Ohimè, eh' io moro, ohimè!
Cossa avi fa della cagnòla,
Figliuol mio caro, fiorito e gentil?
Cossa avi fa della cagnòla?
L' è morta drè la strada;
Signora mama, mio core sta mal!
L' e morta dré la strada:
Ohimè, eh' io moro, ohimè!

[4. "What did you with the leavings,
Dear son so fair and noble?
What did you with the leavings?"
"I gave them to my good hound;
O Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
I gave them to my good hound;
O woe is me! O woe is me! I die!"

5. "Where have you left your good hound,
Dear son so fair and noble?
Where have you left your good hound?"
"It fell dead in the roadway;
O Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
It fell dead in the roadway;
0 woe is me! 0 woe is me! I die!"
]
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 02:13 PM

The will stanzas are surely an international commonplace, occurring in What's the blood, Two brothers, Lizie Wan etc. (Can't bring myself to type the hated title 'E....d'!) and no doubt found in numerous foreign ballads.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 09:50 AM

Hi,

This German variant dates to 1802 and logically to the 1700s. Jamieson published this translation in 1814. He said, "the following German popular ditty, inserted in the Knaben Wunderhern [1805-1808], of which, as it is too humble to be attempted in verse, we have given a verbatim English prose translation."

GROSSMUTTER SCHLANGENKCECHIN.

"Maria, wo bist du zur Stube geweten?
Maria, mein einziges kind?"

"Ich bin bey meiner Grossmutter gewesen;
— Ach weh! Frau Mutter, me weh!"

"Was hat sie dir dann zu essen gegeben,
Maria, mein einziges kind!

"Sie hat mir gebackne Fishlein gegeben;
— Ach weh! Frau Mutter! wie tteh! fyc"

GRANDMOTHER ADDER-COOK.

"Maria, what room have you been in,
Maria, my only child?"

"I have been with my grandmother ;
— Alas! lady mother, what pain!"

"What then has she given thee to eat,
Maria, my only child?"

"She has given me fried fishes ;
— Alas! lady mother, what pain!"

"Where did she catch the little fishes,
Maria, my only child?"

"She caught them in the kitchen-garden ;
— Alas! lady mother, what pain!"

"With what did she catch the little fishes,
Maria, my only child?"

"She caught them with rods and little sticks;
Alas! lady mother, what pain!"

"What did she do with the rest of the fishes;
Maria, my only child?"

"She gave it to her little dark-brown dog:
Alas! lady mother, what pain!"

"And what became of the dark-brown dog,
Maria, my only child?"

"It burst into a thousand pieces:
Alas! lady mother, what pain!"

"Maria, where shall I make thy bed,
Maria, my only child?"

"In the church-yard shalt thou make my bed,
Alas! lady mother, what pain!"

That any one of these Scottish, English, and German copies of the same tale has been borrowed or translated from another, seems very improbable; and it would now be in vain to attempt to ascertain what it originally was, or when it was produced.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 01:56 PM

Hi,

This is a translation of an Italian version recovered by G. B. Bolza who first recovered a version in 1865. I've added the translation to my post dated: 19 Jul 18 - 01:25 PM from this which is the entire version.

In his notes Child says of this version, "A, 'L'Avvelenato,' Bolza, Canzoni popolari comasche, No 49, Sitzungsberichte of the Vienna Academy (philos. histor. class), LIII, 668, is of seventeen stanzas, of seven short lines, all of which repeat but two: the 8th and 10th stanzas are imperfect."

It's taken from Alessandro D'ancona: La Poesia Popolare Italiana (Livorno, 1878), pp. 108-111. Translated in Folk-ballads of Southern Europe edited by Sophie Jewett, Katharine Lee Bates, 1913.

THE POISONED LOVER ("L'Avvelenato")

(Piedmontese)

1. "Where were you yesterevening,
Dear son so fair and noble?
Where were you yesterevening?
"I have been with my sweetheart;
O Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
I have been with my sweetheart;
O woe is me! O woe is me! I die!"

2. "What supper did she give you,
Dear son so fair and noble?
What supper did she give you?"
"A little eel a-roasted;
O Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
A little eel a-roasted;
O woe is me! O woe is me! I die!"

3. "And did you eat the whole, then,
Dear son so fair and noble?
And did you eat the whole, then?"
"Only the half I've eaten;
O Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
Only the half I've eaten;
O woe is me! 0 woe is me! I die!"

4. "What did you with the leavings,
Dear son so fair and noble?
What did you with the leavings?"
"I gave them to my good hound;
O Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
I gave them to my good hound;
O woe is me! O woe is me! I die!"

5. "Where have you left your good hound,
Dear son so fair and noble?
Where have you left your good hound?"
"It fell dead in the roadway;
O Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
It fell dead in the roadway;
O woe is me! O woe is me! I die!"

6. "Oh, she has given you poison,
Dear son so fair and noble!
Oh, she has given you poison!"
"Now call to me the doctor;
O Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
Now call to me the doctor;
O woe is me! O woe is me! I die!"

7. "Why do you want the doctor,
Dear son so fair and noble?
Why do you want the doctor?"
"That he may see what ails me;
O Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
That he may see what ails me;
O woe is me! 0 woe is me! I die!

8. "Now call to me the curate;
O Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
Now call to me the curate;
O woe is me! O woe is me! I die!"

9. "Why do you want the curate,
Dear son so fair and noble?
Why do you want the curate?"
"That I may make confession;
O Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
That I may make confession;
O woe is me! 0 woe is me! I die!

10. "Now call to me a lawyer;
O Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
Now call to me a lawyer;
O woe is me! 0 woe is me! I die!"

11. "Why do you want a lawyer[1],
Dear son so fair and noble?
Why do you want a lawyer?"
"My will to draw and witness;
O Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
My will to draw and witness;
0 woe is me! 0 woe is me! I die!"

12. "What will you leave your mother,
Dear son so fair and noble?
What will you leave your mother?"
"I leave to her my palace;
O Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
I leave to her my palace;
O woe is me! 0 woe is me! I die!"

13. "What will you leave your brothers,
Dear son so fair and noble?
What will you leave your brothers?"
"My carriage and my horses;
O Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
My carriage and my horses;
O woe is me! O woe is me! I die!"

14. "What will you leave your sisters,
Dear son so fair and noble?
What will you leave your sisters?"
"A dowry for their marriage;
O Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
A dowry for their marriage;
O woe is me! O woe is me! I die!"

15. "What will you leave your servants,
Dear son so fair and noble?
What will you leave your servants?"
"The road to go to mass on;
O Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
The road to go to mass on;
O woe is me! 0 woe is me! I die!"

16. "What will you leave for your funeral,
Dear son so fair and noble?
What will you leave for your funeral?"
"A hundred and fifty masses;
O Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
A hundred and fifty masses;
O woe is me! O woe is me! I die!"

17. "What will you leave your sweetheart,
Dear son so fair and noble?
What will you leave your sweetheart?"
"The gallows-tree to hang her;
0 Lady Mother, sick at heart am I!
The gallows-tree to hang her;
0 woe is me! O woe is me! I die!"

_____________

1. perhaps instead "notary"


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 05:13 PM

If you can gather enough versions in translation it might be possible to attempt connections between different strains. My own opinion is that at least some of them are direct translations from the Italian. The phraseology in all the ones we have seen so far shouts translation very loudly. How else can they pass from one language to another without translation?


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 05:51 PM

Hi,

Need a translation of Gaelic from Ériu, Volumes 1-2, 1905 by Douglas Hyde. The wife in the ballad text was named Nuala apparently after Hyde's daughter. Here's the link (the text is impossible to scan tho): https://books.google.com/books?pg=RA1-PA77&dq=%22Douglas+Hyde%22+lord+randal&id=i2DwAAAAMAAJ#v=onepage&q=%22Douglas%20Hyde%22%20 Click on page 80, the article is several pages long.

Here's a translation of the first stanza (Joyce):

"What was in the dinner you got, my fair-haired heart-pulse and my treasure?
What was in the dinner you got, thou flower of young men?"
"An eel that Nuala gave me with deadly poison in it;
Oh, my head! — it is paining me, and I want to lie down."

The Irish versions are identified by "pretty boy" as in the 1914 version from County Cork: “Where were you all day, my own purtee boy?” Any other older Irish versions?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 09:55 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/Q, p. 08581. This is also titled "Lord Ronald" in another MS. Stanza 2 is the only one with "gallant young man?"

    Lord Rondal - sung by Jean Ironside of 5 Auchreddie Road, New Deer learned from a singer in Gyne District.

1. "Where have you been, Lord Rondal, my son?
Where have you been, my handsome young man?"
"I've been to my sweetheart's, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary wi' wanderin' and fain would lie doon."

2. "Oh, have you had supper, Lord Rondal, my son
Oh, have you had supper, my gallant young man?"
"Oh yes I've had supper, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary wi' wanderin' and fain would lie doon."

3. "What had ye for supper, Lord Rondal, my son
"Black fish wi' white bellies, mother, make my bed soon,

4. I'm afraid you've been poisoned, Lord Rondal, my son
"Oh yes, I've been poisoned, mother, make my bed soon,

5. "What will you leave to your father, Lord Rondal, my son,
"My sheep and my cattle, mother, make my bed soon,

6. "What will you leave to your brother, Lord Rondal, my son,
"My horse an' my stable, mother, make my bed soon,

7. "What will you leave to your sister, Lord Rondal, my son,
"My rings an' my jewelry, mother, make my bed soon,

8. "What will you leave to your mother Lord Rondal, my son,
"My books and bible, mother, make my bed soon,

9. "What will you leave to your sweetheart Lord Rondal, my son,
What will you leave to your sweetheart, my handsome young man?"
"There's a rope in the stable, hang her on a tree,
And that's what she'll get for the poisonin' o' me.
Oh mother, dear mother, please make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart and fain would lie doon."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 01:08 PM

Hi,

I'm trying to transcribe the following version, I'll ck it later (Gotta go play jazz for three hours). What is chiappa' ? It should be "What did she give" feminine. Suggestions? "awake" in the first line is too literal, not sure how to fix it tho.

Canti popolari della Montagna lucchese [Folk Songs from the Mountains of Lucchese]
by Giovanni Giannini, 1879

L'AMANTE AVVELENATO [The Poisoned Lover]

Dove sei stato a veglia, [Where have you been awake]
Figliolo mio ricco savio e gentil? [My rich, wise and gentle son?]
Mi fai morì'! [I am dying]
Ohimè! [Alas!]
Dove sei stato a veglia, [Where have you been awake]
Gentil mio cavaliè'? [My gentle knight?]
— A casa della dama. [At the lady's house
Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, ma male mi sta: [Lady mother, my heart is hurting, and it pains me]
Il mio cuore se ne va. [My heart is dying (leaving)]

Cosa ti ha dato a cena, [What did she (he) give you for dinner,]
Figliolo mio ricco savio e gentil? [My rich, wise and gentle son?]
Mi fai morì'! [I am dying]
Ohimè! [Alas!]
Cosa t'ha dato a cena, [What did she give you for dinner,]
Gentil mio cavaliè'? [My gentle knight?]
— Un' anguilletta cotta. [A small cooked eel]
Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, ma male mi sta: [Lady mother, my heart is hurting, and it pains me]
Un' anguillina cotta: [A small cooked eel]
Il mio cuore se ne va. [My heart is dying (leaving)]


Dentro du' te l'ha chiappa',
Figliolo mio ricco savio e gentil?[My rich, wise and gentle son?]
Mi fai morì'! [I am dying]
Ohimè! [Alas!]
Dentro du' te l'ha chiappa',
Gentil mio cavaliè'? [My gentle knight?]
Nel boschettin dell' orto. [In the garden grove]
Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, ma male mi sta:
Nel boschettin dell'orto: [In the garden grove]
Il mio cuore se ne va. [My heart is dying (leaving)]
Dentro du' te l'ha cotta,
Figlio mio ricco savio e gentil? [My rich, wise and gentle son?]
Mi fai morì'! [I am dying]
Ohimè! [Alas]
Dentro du' te l'ha cotta,
Gentil mio cavaliè'? —
'N del penturin dall'olio. [What part did she give you?]
Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, ma male mi sta: [Lady mother, my heart is hurting, and it pains me]
'N del penturin dall'olio:
'L mio cuore se ne va.[My heart is dying (leaving)]
Quala parte t'ha dato, [What part did she given you?]
Figliolo mio ricco savio e gentil? [My rich, wise and gentle son?]
Mi fai morì'! [I am dying]
Ohimè! [Alas]

Quala parte t'ha dato, [What part did she give you]
Gentil mio cavaliè'? — [My gentle knight?]
La testa e la coda. [The head and tail]
Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, marnale mi sta: [Lady mother, my heart is hurting, and it pains me]
La testa e la coda: [The head and tail]
'L mio cuore se ne va. —
— Cosa lassi alla serva,
Figliolo mio ricco savio e gentil? [My rich, wise and gentle son?]
Mi fai morì'! [I am dying]
Ohimè! [Alas!]

Cosa lassi alla serva,
Gentil mio cavaliè'? [My gentle knight?]—
— Lo strofinel de'-p-piatti. dishes]
Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, marnale mi sta: [Lady mother, my heart is hurting, and it pains me]
Lo strofinel de'-p-piatti:
'L mio cuore se ne va. [My heart is dying (leaving)]
Cosa lasci al fratello, [What will you leave your brother,]
Figliolo mio ricco savio e gentil? [My rich, wise and gentle son?]
Mi fai morì'! [I am dying,]
Ohimè! [Alas!]
Cosa lasci al fratello, [What will you leave your brother,]
Gentil mio cavaliè'? [My gentle knight?]
Pantaloni e giubba. [Trousers and jackets.]
Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, marnale mi sta:
Pantaloni e giubba: [Trousers and jackets.]
'li mio cuore se ne va.[My heart is dying (leaving).]

— Cosa lasci alla madre, [What will you leave your mother,]
Figliolo mio ricco savio e gentil? [My rich, wise and gentle son?]
Mi fai morì'!
Ohimè!
Cosa lasci alla madre, [What will you leave your mother,]
Gentil mio cavaliè' ? — [My gentle knight?]
— I gli occhi per il piange'. [My eyes for crying]
Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, ma male mi sta:
I gli occhi per il piange': [My eyes for crying]
'L mio cuore se ne va. [My heart is dying (leaving).]

— Cosa lassi alla sorella, [What will you leave your sister,]
Figliolo mio ricco savio e gentil?
Mi fai morì'!
Ohimè!
Cosa lasci alla sorella, [What will you leave your sister,]
Gentil mio cavaliè'? —[ My gentle knight?]
— Cento scudi per maritalla. [One hundred shields --]
Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, ma male mi sta:
Cento scudi per maritalla:
'L mio cuore se ne va. [My heart is dying (leaving).]
— Cosa lasci alla dama, [What will you leave to the lady,]
Figliolo mio ricco savio e gentil? [My rich, wise and gentle son?]
Mi fai morì'!
Ohimè!

Cosa lasci alla dama. [What will you leave to the lady]
Gentil mio cavaliè'? — [My gentle knight?]
— Un cordin per appiccalla.[A rope to torment(hell)]
Signora madre, il mio cuore sta male, ma male mi sta: [Lady mother, my heart is hurting, and it pains me]
Un cordin per appiccalla:
'L mio cuore se ne va. [My heart is dying (leaving).]

____________________


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 07:14 PM

Hi,

Two stanzas with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/Q, p. 08578

Lord Ronald- girl singers (Scotland) no date or location about 1931.

1 "O Whar hae ye been Lord Ronald, my son?
"Whar hae ye been, my gallant young man?"
"I've been away hunting, mother, mak my bed soon,
For gin weary wi' huntin', an' fain wid lie doon."

2 "What got ye for supper, Lord Ronald, my son?
What got ye for supper, my gallant young man?"
"A dish o small fishes, mother, mak my bed soon,
For gin weary wi' huntin', an' fain wid lie doon."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 07:28 PM

This is probably the shortest version known. It may be a kind of joke, however.

The Scottish music-hall star and character actor Will Fyffe (1885 - 1947) sang it in the movie "Rulers of the Sea" (1939) to the tune of "The Laird o' Cockpen":

        Where have you been, young Ronald my son?
        What got you for dinner, young Ronald my son?
        Eels boiled in broo, mother, make my bed soon.
        I fear you are poisoned, young Ronald my son!


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 08:36 PM

Ty Lighter,

There are a couple one stanza Carpenter versions too :) From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07499

Lord Ronald- sung by Mrs James Pirie of Kirktown of Alvah Banffshire about 1931

1 "O where hae ye been Lord Ronald, my son,
Where hae ye been wandering, my jolly young man?"
"I've been a- hunting, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm weary at the heart, an' fain would lie doon."

2 "What will ye have for dinner, Lord Ronald, my son?
What will ye have for dinner, my jolly young man?"
"I dined wi my truelove; mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, an' fain would lie doon."

3 "What got ye for dinner, Lord Ronald, my son?
What got ye for dinner, my jolly young man?"
"I got fishes biled in bree; mother mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, an' fain would lie doon."

4 "Wha gae ye the supper, Lord Ronald, my son,
Wha gae ye the supper, my jolly young man?"
"My girl an' my sweetheart; mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, an' I fain would lie doon."

5 What's become o your hoonds Lord Ronald, my son,
What's become o your hoonds, my jolly young man,"
"They swelled an' they died, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, an' I fain would lie doon."

6. "I fear ye are poisoned, Lord Ronald, my son,
I fear ye are poisoned, my jolly young man,"
"O yes, I am poisoned; mother mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, an' I fain would lie doon."

7 "What will ye leave to your father, Lord Ronald my son,
What will ye leave to your father, my jolly young man?'
"My land and my [houses]; mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain wad lie doon."

8 "What will ye leave to your mother, Lord Ronald, my son?
What will ye leave to your mother, my jolly young man?"
"My cows an' the byre, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain would lie doon."

9 "What will ye leave to your brother, Lord Ronald, my son,
What will ye leave to your brother, my jolly young man?"
"My horse an' his stable mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain wad lie doon."

10. "What will ye leave to your sister, Lord Ronald, my son
What will ye leave to your sister, my jolly young man?"
"My box an'my rings; mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain would lie doon."

11 "What will ye leave to your sweetheart, Lord Ronald, my son?
What will ye leave to your sweetheart, my jolly young man?"
"A rope an' the halter, that hangs to the tree,
An' lat her hang there get for the poisoning o' me."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 10:06 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07497
Performer. Inconsistent dialect.

Lord Randal- sung by Mrs William Duncan of Oyne, Aberdeenshire about 1931.

1 "Where hae ye been hunting, Lord Randal, my son?
Where hae ye been hunting, my handsome young man?"
"Down in yon green meadows, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wanderin' an' fain would lie doon."

2 "Who did you dine wi, Lord Randal, my son?
Who did you dine wi, my handsome young man?"
"I dined wi my sweetheart, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wanderin' an' fain would lie doon."

3 "What had you for supper, Lord Randal, my son?
What had you for supper, my handsome young man?"
"I got veal fried with ashney, mother make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wanderin' an' fain would lie doon."

4 "What became of your greyhound, Lord Randal, my son?
What became of your greyhound, my handsome young man?"
He swelled an' he died, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wanderin' an' fain would lie doon."

5. "I think ye are poisoned, Lord Randal, my son,
I think ye are poisoned, my handsome young man,"
"O yes, I am poisoned; mother mak my bed soon,
For I'm weary, wi wanderin' an' fain would lie doon."

6. "What'll ye leave to your father, Lord Randal my son
What will ye leave to your father, my handsome young man?'
"My land an' my horses; mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm weary, wi wanderin' an' fain would lie doon."

7. "What will ye leave to your mother, Lord Randal, my son?
What will ye leave to your mother, my handsome young man?"
My gold an' my silver, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm weary, wi wanderin' an' fain would lie doon."

8 "What'll ye leave to your sister, Lord Randal, my son?
What'll ye leave to your brother, my handsome young man?"
"My box an' my jewels, mother mak my bed soon,
For I'm weary, wi wanderin' an' fain would lie doon."

9. "What'll ye leave to your sweetheart, Lord Randal, my son?
What'll ye leave to your sweetheart, my handsome young man?"
"A dish o' rank poison as she gaed to me,
Gin that disna dee her, she'll be hanged on a tree."
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 10:38 PM

Hi,

There are at least two similar Swedish versions titled, Den Lillas Testamente. This is from "Svenska folkvisor" Erik Gustaf Geijer och Arvid August Afzelius, 1816. The translation below is from "Lord Ronald in Italy," by Carrington 1886.

       1. »Hvar har du varit så länge? —
            Dotter, liten kind! —
       »Jag har varit hos min amma.»
            Kär styfmoder min! —
       För aj aj! ondt hafver jag — jag.

       2. »Hvad fick du der att äta?» —
       »Ett par små randiga fiskar.»

       3. »Hvad gjorde du af benen?» —
       »Dem gaf jag lilla hunden.»

       4. »Hvad önskar du din fader?» —
       »Himmelen den glade.»

       5. »Hvad önskar du din moder?» —
       »Himmelen den gode.»

       6. »Hvad önskar du din broder?» —
       »Ett gångande skepp i floden.»

       7. »Hvad önskar du din syster?» —
       »Gullskrin och kistor.»

       8. »Hvad önskar du din styfmor?»
       »Helvetet det svåra.»

       9. »Hvad önskar du din amma?» —
       »Den önskar jag det samma.»

       10. »Jag hafver icke tider,
            Att tala mer vid er;
       Ty himmelens små klockor
            De ringa efter mig.»
       För aj, aj! ondt hafver jag — jag.
                * * * *

1. “Where have you been so long[1]
My dearest child?”
“I have been to see my nurse, stepmother mine.”
Ouch, ouch, I have a terrible pain, ouch!

2. “What did you eat there
My dearest child?”
“Pepper roasted eel, stepmother mine
”Ouch, ouch, I have a terrible pain, ouch!”

3 “What did you do with the bones?”
”I gave them to the dog.”

4 ”What happened to the dog?”
“It blew up in fifteen pieces.”

5 ”What will you give your father?”
”Loads of good barley.”

6 ”What will you give your mother then?”
”Heaven ´s delight.”

7 ”What will you give your brother?”
”Big ships out in the sea.”

8 "What will you give your sister then?”
”Gold case and chest.”

9 ”What will you give your stepmother?”
”All of Hell's burden.”

10 ”What will you give your nurse?”
”Hell's fire.
___________________

1. The transcription above is not literal and the first stanza could more accurately be:

"Where have you been so long,
Daughter, little child?"
"Sure with my old nurse I've stayed,
My step-mother mine!
For oh! oh! sore pains have I— I!"
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 02:11 PM

Hi,

This is Swedish version from Ostergothland in 1837 (my translation below). I've fixed the notes some but there are still errors from google translate. From: Svenska fornsånger, en samling utg. af A.I. Arwidsson. 3 deler by Svenska fornsånger, 1837

88. Den Lillas Testamente

Jemte melodit fran Ostergothland. — Uppfinningen och anord- niogen af denna tradition ar markbart olik den som forekommer bland Svenska Folk-Visor, III, 13. P2 sednast namde stalle uppgifves "dotter liten kind" hafva blifvit forgiftad, vid ett besok hos sin amma; uti nedanfore meddelade slag verkslalles detta hos brodern af bennes amma och styfmoder. Ofvannamnde Svenska folkvisa ar ofversatt af Studach, i Schwedische Volksbarfe, s. 98 samt af Mohnike, bland Volkslieder der Schweden, I, 5. — Diktningar hos fremmande folkslag som likna denna, aro: Grossmutter Schlangenkochin, i Des Knaben Wunderhorn von Achim v. Arnim und Cl. Brantano, Th. I, s.19, (pa Engelska uti Illustrations of northern Antiquities, from the earlier Teutonic and Scandinavian Romances (by H. Weber and R. Jamieson 8. 320), och slutet af The cruel Brother, or, the Bride's Testament, hos Jamieson, 1. c. I, 66, hvaraf en skiljaktig uppteckning forekommer hos Gilchrist, 1. c I, ao5. Borjan deraf bar afven likbet med: Lord Randal, uti W. Scotts Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border (uppl. 5), II, s. 267, (Ofversatt af Grimm, bland Drei Altschottische Lieder).

1. "Hvar har du va't sä länge?" —
Lilla dotter kind!
"Jag har va't i bänne,
"Hos broderen min!"
Aj, aj, ondt hafver jag, jag!

2. "Hvad fick du der att äta?" --
Lilla dotter kind!
"Slekter äl och peppar,
"Styfmoder min!"
Aj, aj, ondt bafver jag, jag!

3."Hvad gjorde du af benen!" —
Lilla dotter kind!
Kasta dem for hundarne,
Styfmoder min!"
Aj, aj, m, m.

4. "Hvart kommo de hundarne?" —
"Remna i femton stycken,
Hundarne smä, m, m.

5. "Hvad ger du dä din fader?" —
"Godt korn i lador,
Faderen min!"

6. "Hyad ger du dä din broder?" —
"Vida skepp i floder,
"Broderen min!"

7. "Hvad ger du dä din syster?" —
"Guldskrin och kistor,
"Systeren min!"

8. "Hvad ger du din styfmoder?" —
"Helvetes bojor,
"Styfmoder min!"

9. "Hvad ger du da din amma?" —
Lilla dotter kind!
"Helvetet samma,
"Amman min!'
Aj, aj, ondt hafver jag, jag!

_____________

Swedish songs, a collection of A.I. Arwidsson. 3 parts
by Swedish singers, 1837


88. The Child's Testament (Will)

Along with a melody from Ostergothland. The invention and arrangement of nine of this tradition are markedly different from that of Svenska Folk-Visor, III, 13. P2, considering the last stall name given "daughter little child" was poisoned at a visit to her grandmother; in the following version, this was done with the brother at the stepmother's and stepmother's nurse. Mentioned above in Swedish folklore is over rated by Studach, in Schwedische Volksbarfe, p. 98, and by Mohnike, among Volkslieder der Schweden, I, 5. - Dictations of versions similar to this, such as: Grossmutter Schlangenkochin, des Knaben Wunderhorn von Achim v. Arnim and Cl. Brantano, Th. I, p.19, "English in Illustrations of Northern Antiquities, from the earlier Teutonic and Scandinavian Romances (by H. Weber and R. Jamieson 8, 320), and the end of The Cruel Brother, or the Bride's Testament, at Jamieson, 1. c. I, 66, of which a discernible record appears at Gilchrist, 1. c I, 205. The ballad of the same was as follows: Lord Randal, in W. Scotts Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border (Ed. 5), II, p. 267, (Overstated by Grimm, Among Drei Altschottische Lieder).

1. "Where have you been so long now
Little daughter child?"
"I've been to Banne,
"With brother mine!"
Oh, oh, sore pains have I, I!

2. "What did you get there to eat,
Little daughter child?"
"Roasted eels and pepper,
"Stepmother mine!"
Oh, oh, sore pains have I, I!

3. "What did you do with the legs,
Little daughter child?"
"Threw them to the dogs,
Stepmother mine!"
Oh, Oh, m, m.

4. "What became of the dogs?"
"Bursted in fifteen pieces,
The dogs are small, m, m.

5. "What do you give your father there?" -
"Good grain in barns,
Father mine!"

6. "What are you giving your brother?"
"Big ship in the river,
Brother mine!"

7. "What do you give your sister there?" -
"Gold boxes and chests,
"Sister mine!"

8. "What do you give your stepmother?" -
"The bowels of hell,
"Stepmother mine!"

9. "What do you give your nurse?" -
Little daughter child!
"Hell the same,
"Nurse mine!"
Oh, oh, sore pains have I, I!
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 03:57 PM

Okay so the details vary somewhat and the narrative is very slim, it being all dialogue with lots of re-iteration, but it doesn't matter what language it turns up in the form is remarkably similar in each language. Off hand I can't think of another international ballad that does this. The norm is for ballads in different languages to use a common story or to have motifs in common. Remarkable! Perhaps another candidate would be 'Maid Freed from the Gallows'. I would go as far as to offer this ballad has possibly inspired the other 'will making' ballads like 'What is that Blood', 'Lizzie Wan'.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 04:18 PM

> the form is remarkably similar in each language.

Remarkably similar indeed, with random variations in the details, for example the first Swedish one above having the interrogation by the stepmother and the poisoning by the nurse!


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 08:32 AM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07501. This was the version Grieg printed in his newspaper article c. 1910 (Folk Songs of the North East, p. 112).

Lord Ronald- sung by William Ross of Old Schoolhouse, Balquhindochy, by Turriff, Aberdeenshire, Scotland. Collected by Carpenter about 1931.

1 "Where have you been Lord Ronald, my son?
Where have you been, my jolly young man?"
"I've been a- hunting, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wandering, an' I fain would lie doon."

2 "And have you got supper, Lord Ronald, my son?
"And have you got supper, my jolly young man?"
"O yes, I've got supper; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wandering, an' I fain would lie doon."

3 "What got you for supper, Lord Ronald, my son?
What got you for supper, my jolly young man?"
"A dish of small fishes, mother make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wandering, an' I fain would lie doon."

4 "What like were those fishes, Lord Ronald, my son?
What like were those fishes, my jolly young man?"
"Yellow backs an' sprackled bellies; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wandering, an' I fain would lie doon."

5 "I fear you are poisoned, Lord Ronald, my son,
I fear you are poisoned, my jolly young man,"
"O yes, I am poisoned; mother make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wandering, an' I fain would lie doon."

6 "[What] will you leave to your brother, Lord Ronald my son
[What] will you leave to your brother, my jolly young man?'
"My gold watch an' gold chain, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wandering, an' I fain would lie doon."

7 "[What] will ye leave to your sister, Lord Ronald, my son?
[What] will ye leave to your sister, my jolly young man?"
My purse and my silver, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wandering, an' I fain would lie doon."

8. "[What] will ye leave to your mother, Lord Ronald, my son?
What will ye leave to your mother, my jolly young man?"
"My house and my rents mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wandering, an' I fain would lie doon."

9. "[What] will ye leave to your father, Lord Ronald, my son?
[What] will ye leave to your father, my jolly young man?"
"My horse an' my stable; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wandering, an' I fain would lie doon."

10 "[What] will ye leave to your sweetheart, Lord Ronald, my son?
[What] will ye leave to your sweetheart, my jolly young man?"
"Yon tow an' yon halter, that hangs on yon tree,
An' that's what she gets for the poisoning o' me."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 08:47 AM

Hi,

Fragment with music from: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07502. Extended last stanza.

Lord Ronald- sung by Miss Elsie Miln of The Cottage, Kennethmont, Scotland, about 1931.

1 "What ails you, what ails you, Lord Ronald, my son?
What ails you, Lord Ronald, my jolly young man?"
"O mother, I'm poisoned you'll mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the hert, an' I'd fain lie doon."

2 "What got ye for supper, Lord Ronald, my son?
"What got ye for supper, my jolly young man?"
"A dish o' small fishes, mother mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the hert, an' I'd fain lie doon."

3 "What'll ye leave tee your brother, Lord Ronald my son
What'll ye leave tee your brother, my jolly young man?
"My hooses an' lands, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the hert, an' I'd fain lie doon."

4 "What'll ye leave tee your sister, Lord Ronald, my son?
What'll ye leave tee your sister, my jolly young man?"
My horses and my carriage, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the hert, an' I'd fain lie doon."

5. "What'll ye leave tee your sweetheart, Lord Ronald, my son?
What'll ye leave tee your sweetheart, my jolly young man?"
"A tow an' a halter, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the hert, an' I'd fain lie doon."

6. "A tow an' a halter, for tee hang on a tree,
A tow an' a halter for the poisoning o' me."
"A tow an' a halter, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the hert, an' I'd fain lie doon."
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 09:05 AM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07503, recorded melody also in in Keith/Greig. This is Greig-Duncan B, c. 1907 collected by Greig.

Lord Ronald- sung by Alexander Robb of New Deer, Aberdeenshire, Scotland about 1931.

1 "Where have you been a' day, Lord Ronald, my son?
Where have you been a' day, my gallant young man?"
"O I've been a- hunting, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm wearied, wearied wandering, and fain would lie doon."

2 "What got ye tee your supper, Lord Ronald, my son?
What got ye tee your supper, my gallant young man?"
"Black fish wi white bellies, mother make my bed soon,
For I'm wearied, wearied wandering, and fain would lie doon."

3. "You're poisoned, you're poisoned Lord Ronald, my son,
You're poisoned, you're poisoned, my gallant young man[1],"
["O yes, I am poisoned; mother make my bed soon,
For I'm wearied, wearied wandering, and fain would lie doon."]

4 "What'll ye leave tee your brother, Lord Ronald my son
What'll ye leave tee your brother, my gallant young man?'
"My houses and lands, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm wearied, wearied wandering, and fain would lie doon."

5 "What'll ye leave tee your sister, Lord Ronald, my son?
What'll ye leave tee your sister, my gallant young man?"
My books and my Bibles, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm wearied, wearied wandering, and fain would lie doon."

6 "What'll ye leave tee your sweetheart, Lord Ronald, my son?
What'll ye leave tee your sweetheart, my gallant young man?"
"The tow and the halter, that hangs on yon tree,
And well does she deserve it for the poisoning o' me."
For the poisoning o' me, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm wearied wi' wandering, and fain would lie doon."
_______________

1. I've added an approximation of the two missing lines which follow.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 09:34 AM

Hi,

The text/music of Lord Ronald sung by W. C. Cruikshank of Cortes Gardens, Lonmay, Scotland is missing. It is listed in the James Madison Carpenter database but is not in the VWML.


From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07505. The following version has the bloodhound stanza, rare among Carpenter versions.

Lord Ronald- sung by Hector Campbell of Ythanwells, Aberdeenshire, Scotland about 1931.

1 "O have you been hunting, Lord Ronald, my son?
O have you been hunting, my handsome young man?"
"O yes I've been hunting, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wanderin', and I fain wid lie doon."

2 "O who were you with, Lord Ronald, my son?
O who were you with, my handsome young man?"
"I've been with my sweetheart, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary wi' huntin', and fain wid lie doon."

3 "What had ye for your dinner, Lord Ronald, my son?
What had ye for your dinner, my handsome young man?"
"I had for my dinner, fried eels in a pan,
For I'm weary wi' huntin', and fain wid lie doon."

4 "What became of your bloodhounds, Lord Ronald, my son?
What became of your bloodhounds, my handsome young man?"
"They swelled up and they died, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary wi' the huntin', and fain wid lie doon."

5 "I afraid you've been poisoned, Lord Ronald, my son,
I afraid you've been poisoned, my handsome young man,"
"O yes, I've been poisoned; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary wi the huntin', and fain wid lie doon."

6 "What leave you to your mother, Lord Ronald my son
What leave you to your mother, my handsome young man?'
"I leave to my mother, my houses and land,
But I'm weary wi' the huntin', and fain wid lie doon."

7. "What leave ye to your sweetheart, Lord Ronald, my son?
What leave ye to your sweetheart, my handsome young man?"
"She'll get arsenic and water, the thing she gie me,
And if that dis nae sair her, she can hang on a tree."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 09:56 AM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07506

Lord Ronald- sung by Jean Esselmont of Cuminestown, Scotland, 1931.

1 "Where have you been, Lord Ronald, my son?
Where have you been, my gallant young man?"
"I've been to see my sweetheart, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain wid lie doon."

2 "What had you for supper, Lord Ronald, my son?
What had you for supper, my gallant young man?"
"A plate of nice fishes, mother make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain wid lie doon."

4 "What kind of fishes, Lord Ronald, my son?
What kind of fishes, my gallant young man?"
"Black backs and white bellies, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain wid lie doon."

4 "I fear you've been poisoned, Lord Ronald, my son,
I fear you've been poisoned, my gallant young man,"
"Yes mother, I've been poisoned; O make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain wid lie doon."

5 "What'll you leave to your father, Lord Ronald my son
What'll you leave to your father, my gallant young man?'
"My horses and stables, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain wid lie doon."

6. "What'll you leave to your mother, Lord Ronald, my son?
What'll you leave to your mother, my gallant young man?"
My purse and my silver, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain wid lie doon."

7. "What'll you leave to your brother, Lord Ronald, my son?
What'll you leave to your brother, my gallant young man?"
"My gold watch and chain, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain wid lie doon."

8. "What'll you leave to your sister, Lord Ronald, my son?
What'll you leave to your sister, my gallant young man?"
"My books and my bible, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain wid lie doon."

9. "What'll you leave to your sweetheart, Lord Ronald, my son?
What'll you leave to your sweetheart, my gallant young man?"
"There's a rope in yon stable, and she'll hang on yon tree,
That's what she'll get for the poisoning o' me."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 10:13 AM

Hi,

Fragment from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07507, has an unusual last line.

Young Donald- sung by Mrs A. Cameron of Keeth, Scotland, 1931.

1. "What got you for supper, young Donald, my son?
What got you for supper, my gallant young man?"
"I'm afraid I've got poison, mother make my bed soon,
For life is a burden, an' I'd fain lay it doon."

2. "What'll you leave to your father, young Donald my son
What'll you leave to your father, my gallant young man?"
"My gold and my silver, mother, make my bed soon,
For life is a burden, an' I'd fain lay it doon."

3. "What'll ye leave to your brothers, young Donald, my son?
What'll ye leave to your brothers, my gallant young man?"
"My boxes and property, mother, make my bed soon,
For life is a burden, an' I'd fain lay it doon."

4. "What'd ye leave to your sweetheart, young Donald, my son?
What'd ye leave to your sweetheart, my gallant young man?"
"The rope an' the gallows, that hangs on yon tree,
And she will get that for the poisonin' o' me."
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 10:27 AM

Hi,

Fragment from the US from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07514. Fairly close to the Scottish versions.

Lord Randall- sent in by Evelyn Grant of Plantersville, Miss. Learned from her mother Mrs. J.S. Grant, no date but around 1938

1 "O where have you been, Lord Randall, my son?
O where have you been, my handsome young man?"
"I've been to the woods, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary with hunting, and fain would lie down."

2 "Where did you get your dinner, Lord Randall, my son?
Where did you get your dinner, my handsome young man?"
"I dined with my truelove, Mother make my bed soon,
For I'm weary with hunting, and fain would lie down."

3 "What did ye have for dinner, Lord Randall, my son?
What did ye have for dinner, my handsome young man?"
"Eels fried in butter, Mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary with hunting, and fain would lie down."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 10:36 AM

Hi,

Single stanza with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/6/6/G, p. 10079

Lord Randal- sung by Peter Christie of 21 Shore Head, Stonehaven about 1931.

1 "O where hae ye been, Lord Randal, my son?
And where hae ye been, my handsome young man?"
"I've been at the greenwoods, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary wi' hunting, and fain would lie down."
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 10:42 AM

What would make a really useful study is where Carpenter collected from Grieg's informants, any differences in the versions recorded, with the 25 year interval.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 10:59 AM

Hi,

Yes Steve, there are a number of versions by the same informant that are in Greig-Duncan (Lyle), Greig-Keith and Carpenter. Greig-Keith (Last Leaves) only gives one full text, for this ballad its Bell Roberston's. The Alex Robb text in Greig-Keith is melody with only one stanza of text. There are differences-- some are quite different as the informant has learned from other versions.

The Willie Mathieson version (first posted in this thread) is also in Scottish School of Music (1952) collection so he was around for all as were a few other informants.

The other publication with Grieg's versions is Grieg's newspaper articles circa 1910, which you have. Some newspaper versions are reprinted in Carpenter too. The newspaper article versions also vary.

* * * *

Single stanza with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/Q, p. 08575

Lord Ronald- sung by William Duncan, who may be the husband of Mrs. William Duncan, who is from Tories, Oyne, by Turriff, Aberdeenshire. Dated c. 1931.

Where have ye been a-huntin, Lord Ronald, my son?
Where have ye been a-huntin, my handsome young man?"
Down in yon green meadow[1], mother make my bed soon,
I'm weary, weary wanderin' and fain wid lie doon.
__________________
1. original has "meadey"

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 11:52 AM

Hi,

Two stanzas with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/Q, p. 08577

Lord Randle- sung by Mrs Jeanie T. Durward of Viewfield, St Fergus, Aberdeenshire; dated 1932.

"Where have you been, Lord Randle, my son?
Where have you been, my handsome young man?"
"I'se been a- huntin', mother make my bed soon,
I'm weary wis huntin' and fain wad lie doon."

"What got ye for dinner, Lord Randle, my son?
What got ye for dinner, my handsome young man?"
"I got eels boiled in brew, mother make my bed soon,
I'm weary wis huntin' and fain wad lie doon.
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 12:38 PM

Hi,

The version Grieg printed in his newspaper article c. 1910 (Folk Songs of the North East, p. 112) is: Lord Ronald- sung by William Ross of Old Schoolhouse, Balquhindochy. It was transcribed several posts back. There are some very minor edits.

This new transcript is from: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/Q, pp. 08583-08584

Lord Ronald- sung by William Morrison of Wardhead, Bieldside, Aberdeenshire, Scotland. Learned c. 1927 from Bailie at Hill of Phiddis, Udney.

1 "Oh, where have you been to, Lord Ronald, my son?
Oh where have you been to, my gallant young man?"
"I've been away hunting, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm wearied wis wanderin, an' fain would lie doon."

2 "Have ye gotten supper, Lord Ronald, my son?
"Have ye gotten supper, my gallant young man?"
"Yes, I've got supper; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm wearied wis wanderin, an' fain would lie doon."

3 "What had ye for supper, Lord Ronald, my son?
What had ye for supper, my gallant young man?"
"I've had a few fishes, mother make my bed soon,
For I'm wearied wis wanderin, an' fain would lie doon."

4 "What kind were the fishes, Lord Ronald, my son?
What kind were the fishes, my gallant young man?"
"They were black backed an' spreckled bellied, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm wearied wis wanderin, an' fain would lie doon."

5 "I doot ye've been poisoned, Lord Ronald, my son,
I doot ye've been poisoned, my gallant young man,"
"Yes, I've poisoned; mother make my bed soon,
For I'm wearied wis wanderin, an' fain would lie doon."

6 "What d'ya leave to your father, Lord Ronald my son
What d'ya you leave to your father, my gallant young man?"
"My houses in London, mother make my bed soon,
For I'm wearied wis wanderin, an' fain would lie doon."

7 "What d'ye leave to your mother, Lord Ronald, my son?
What d'ye leave to your mother, my gallant young man?"
My purse and my savings, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm wearied wis wanderin, an' fain would lie doon."

8. "What d'ye leave to your brother, Lord Ronald, my son?
What d'ye leave to your brother, my gallant young man?"
"Yon horse in yon stables, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm wearied wis wanderin, an' fain would lie doon."

9. "What d'ye leave to your sister, Lord Ronald, my son?
What d'ye leave to your sister, my gallant young man?"
"My gold watch and chain; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm wearied wis wanderin, an' fain would lie doon."

10 "What d'ye leave to your sweetheart, Lord Ronald, my son?
What d'ye leave to your sweetheart, my gallant young man?"
"Yon rope and yon halter, that hangs on yon tree,
An' that's what she'll get for the poisoning of me."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 02:14 PM

Hi,

There is a version in Carpenter's Collection of Den Lillas Testemente or The Child's Last Will, (VWML Song Index SN23926) which is the Swedish version. The text is simiar to the two versions I posted but it's clearly different:
https://www.vwml.org/search?q=%20Den%20Lillas%20Testaments&is=1

If anyone knows the source please let me know,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 02:56 PM

Hi,

From: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/L, p. 07509, this version has an archaic sounding phrase "huntin' in floonery fields," which makes it seem older. The first two stanzas have "handsome young man" while the rest have "jolly young man" which suggests a composite.

Lord Ronald- sung by Mrs Mary Stewart Robertson of 6 Auchreddie Road, New Deer, Aberdeenshire, Scotland. Learned from her mother.

1. "O faur hae ye been a' the day, Lord Ronald, my son?
O faur hae ye been a' the day, my handsome young man?"
"A huntin' in floonery fields, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the hert an' fain would lie doon."

2. "Fat got ye for supper, Lord Ronald, my son?
Fat got ye for supper, my handsome young man?"
"A dish o sma fishes, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the hert an' fain would lie doon."

3. "Fat color wis that fishes, Lord Ronald, my son?
Fat color wis that fishes, my jolly young man?"
"They were reid purple yellow wi lang spackled bellies, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the hert an' fain would lie doon."

4. "I doot ye are poisoned, Lord Ronald, my son?
I doot ye are poisoned, my jolly young man?"
"Oh yes, I am poisoned, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the hert an' fain would lie doon."

5. "What'll ye leave tee your father, Lord Ronald, my son?
What'll ye leave tee your brother, my jolly young man?"
"My houses an' lands, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the hert an' fain would lie doon."

6. "What'll ye leave tee your brother, Lord Ronald, my son?
What'll ye leave tee your brother, my jolly young man?"
"My bright gowd stars, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the hert an' fain would lie doon."

7 "What'll ye leave tee your sister, Lord Ronald, my son?
What'll ye leave tee your sister, my jolly young man?"
"Gowd earrings, gowd brooches, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the hert an' fain would lie doon."

8. "What'll ye leave tee your sweetheart, Lord Ronald, my son?
What'll ye leave tee your sweetheart, my jolly young man?"
"The block and the rope, that hung on the tree,
An' cold water an' poison that she's gied tee me, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm weary at the hert an' fain would lie doon."
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 03:19 PM

What are 'floonery fields' and why is it archaic?


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 03:23 PM

Hi,

Steve-- her versions from her mother have been old (see Two Sisters), this phrase reminded me of "flowery fields" from the Stewart (Aberdeen) line, I guess it was an instinctual comment, I'll have to look at it further, glad you pointed that out. Following are two single stanza Carpenter versions with music:

   James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/6/5/B, p. 09624

Lord Ronald- sung by Mrs. Isabella Reed of Port Gordon, Banffshire.

1. "Where have you been huntin Lord Ronald, my son?
Where have you been hunting, my handsome young man?"
"O, I've been a-hunting, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm weary wie huntin', and fain wad lie doon."

* * * *

Very similar text, one stanza with music from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/5/1/Q, p. 08592

Lord Ronald- sung by a Woman singer (soft voice) given by Mrs Andrew Thompson of Spey Bay, Banffshire.

1. "Where have you been hunting, Lord Ronald, my son?
Where have you been hunting, my handsome young man?"
"O, I've been a-hunting, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm weary wie wandrin', and fain wad lie doon."

* * * *

As a side note: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/6/6/K, pp. 10297-10298 is Child A. It's a two-page MS sent in by Margaret Stull of Waynesboro, Pennsylvania about 1938. It gives Child A in it's entirety and begins:

1 "Oh, Where ha you been Lord Randal, my son?
And where ha you been, my handsome young man?"
"I ha been to the greenwood, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm wearied wi' huntin', an' fain wad lie down."

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 04:11 PM

Hi,

I finally found the Cruickshank version, maybe had name wrong. It's located at James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/K, p. 05606. This is one of only two Carpenter versions with the bloodhound stanza- it also has "wildwoods" which is also unusual.

    Lord Ronald- sung by W. C. Cruickshank of Cortes Gardens, Lonmay, Aberdeenshire. Learned about 1881 from his sister.

1. "Oh whar hae ye been, Lord Ronald my son,
Oh whar hae ye been, my handsome young man?"
"I hae been to the wildwoods, mother, mak my bed soon,
I am weary wi huntin and fain would lie doon."

2. "Whar got ye your dinner, Lord Ronald my son,
Whar got ye your dinner, my handsome young man?"
"I dined wi my truelove, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm weary wi huntin and fain would lie doon."

3. "What got ye to[at] dinner, Lord Ronald my son,
What got ye to dinner, my handsome young man?"
"I eels boiled in brew, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm weary wi huntin and fain would lie doon."

4."What became o your bloodhounds, Lord Ronald my son,
What became o your bloodhounds, my handsome young man?"
"O they swelled and thye died, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm weary wi huntin and fain would lie doon."

5. "I'm afraid ye are poisoned, Lord Ronald my son,
I'm afraid ye are poisoned, my handsome young man?"
"O yes, I am poisoned, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart and fain would lie doon."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 04:59 PM

Hi,

The last two are versions of Child 12 are James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/34, Disc Side 034, 00:00

Lord Randal- sung Mrs (Margaret) Vass - no text transcribed and it's hard to hear and sounds like another song.

And---

    James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/B, p. 11502.

Lord Ronald sung by Mrs John Baird. No text just the melody.

__________________________

Some brief conclusions and I'll be working on other British versions and can perhaps better comment on how they fit into the Scottish timeline.

Lord Ronald is the overwhelming favorite name for the poisoned one and title. The location is usually vague: he's gone hunting or wandering- or, is at his sweethearts. Specific locations includes "wildwoods," "green meadow" "floonery (flowery?) fields" or the "woods." Many of the versions do not establish that Lord Ronald has gone to his sweetheart's (some do in the first stanza) until it's discovered when his mother asks when he got his dinner.

He eats a variety of poisoned fish (sometimes black or "black fishes wi spreckled bellies") and eels which are usually "eels boiled in brew." Only two versions have his bloodhounds missing because they've eaten the poison and swelled then died. As soon as it's established that he's eaten poison fish/eels and is dying, he makes his will giving his father, mother, brother and sister (usually in that order but it varies) different gifts. The gifts are all fairly standard. His sweetheart usually received a rope (tow) and a halter and will be hung on yon tree but sometimes she is poisoned then if she survives, is to be hung.

The 23 versions posted here are Scottish except one version is from the US (seems Scottish) and another (no source given) from Sweden (Den Illas Testemente).

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 05:48 PM

Hi,

This is from Keith Greig's Last Leaves, p. 13-14 and represent possibly an earlier generation or two-- however, the text is the same, the title slightly changed to Lord Donald. Only one version from Last Leaves has "[Lord] Henry" which is Keith Grieg 3 by James M. Brown (one stanza but Greig Duncan A, 5 stanzas) which are only the "will" stanzas.

Lord Donald- recited by Bell Roberston of New Pitsligo, Aberdeenshire. Collected by Grieg about 1906.

1 "Where have ye been a-huntin', Lord Donald, my son?
Where have ye been a-huntin', my jolly young man?"
"Oh yes, I've been a- hunting, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, an' so fain would lie doon."

2 "Have you got ony supper, Lord Donald, my son?
Have you got ony supper, my jolly young man?"
"O yes, I've got supper; mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, an' so fain would lie doon."

3 "What kind was the supper, Lord Donald, my son,
What kind was the supper, my jolly young man?"
"A dish of small fishes, mother mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, an' so fain would lie doon."

4. "What kind was the fishes, Lord Donald my son?
What kind was the fishes, my jolly young man?"
"Black backs and speckled bellies, mother make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, an' so fain would lie doon."

5. "O where did you dine, Lord Donald, my son?
O where did you dine, my jolly young man?"
"I dined with my sweetheart; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, an' so fain would lie doon."

6 "I think ye are poisoned, Lord Donald, my son,
I think ye are poisoned, my jolly young man,"
"O yes, I am poisoned; mother make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, an' so fain would lie doon."

7 "What will ye leave to your father, Lord Donald my son
What will ye leave to your father, my jolly young man?"
"My land and my horses, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, an' so fain wad lie doon."

8 "What will ye leave to your mother, Lord Donald, my son?
What will ye leave to your mother, my jolly young man?"
My gold and my silver, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, an' so I fain would lie doon."

9 "What will ye leave to your sister, Lord Donald, my son?
What will ye leave to your sister, my jolly young man?"
"My gold watch and gold chain, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, an' so fain would lie doon."

10 "What will ye leave to your sweetheart, Lord Donald, my son?
What will ye leave to your sweetheart, my jolly young man?"
"A tow an' the halter, that hangs on yon tree,
That's what she'll get for poisonin' me."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 06:15 PM

floonery
A long shot but there is well-known Highland song by Dr. Norman McLeod called 'Farewell to Fiunary'. Among other places it is given by Ford in 'Vagabond Songs' p208. He states 'By virtue of use and wont, 'Fiunary' to the Western Highlander is just another name for home.'
However Aberdeenshire is on the opposite side of the country.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 06:24 PM

Hi,

Thanks Steve, good info, there is flowery fields in a Stewart version but I haven't looked at the newer Scottish versions yet. I thought of the famous battle at "Flodden Field" near the Scot border which is somewhat similar.

This is Greig Duncan A (thanks for sending) and it's an Irish/Scotch version that was learned in Aberdeenshire which probably dates conservatively back to the late 1800s. It has only the "will" stanzas. The title, "Henry, my son" is still sung in Ireland-- the identifier is "my pretty one."

Henry, my Son- sung by James Matthew Brown and Miss Jeannie Brown, of Glasgow, learned in Aberdeenshire. Collected Duncan around 1907.

1 "What'll ye leave to your mother, Henry, my son,
What'll ye leave to your mother, my pretty one?"
"I leave her all my jewels, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to the heart, and I fain wid lie doon,
For I'm sick to the heart, and I fain wid lie doon."

2 "What'll ye leave to your father, Henry, my son?
What'll ye leave to your father, my pretty one?"
"I leave him all my land, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to the heart, and I fain wid lie doon."

3 "What'll ye leave to your brother, Henry, my son?
What'll ye leave to your brother, my pretty one?"
"I will leave him all my money, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to the heart, and I fain wid lie doon."

4 "What'll ye leave to your sister, Henry, my son?
What will ye leave to your sister, my pretty one?"
"My gold watch and gold chain, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to the heart, and I fain wid lie doon."

5 "What'll ye leave to your sweetheart, Henry, my son?
What'll ye leave to your sweetheart, my pretty one?"
"The rope and the halter, that hangs on yon tree,
And it's there she shall die for poisonin' of me."

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 08:56 PM

Hi,

Here's Greig-Duncan C which was taken from Buchan singers. Single stanza with music.

C. "Oh Mak' My Bed Easy." Sung by George Riddell, shoemaker and fiddler from Rosehearty, Aberdeenshire. Collected Greig about 1907.

Oh mak' my bed easy
Oh mak' my bed soon
For oh but I'm weary
And fain wad lie doon.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 09:27 PM

Hi,

Greig-Duncan D, single stanza with music, was sung by Mrs. Lyall who also recorded for Carpenter. It's a middle stanza (cf. Alex Robb).

D. "Lord Ronald," sung by Mrs. A. Lyall (b. July 18, 1869) of Moss Croft, Lyne of Skene, Aberdeenshire. She got her ballads from her mother, Mrs Ella Roy, nee Florence. Ella Florence's father was a fiddler and singer.

"I doot[1] ye are poison'd, Lord Ronald, my son?
I doot ye are poison'd, my jolly young man?"
"Oh yes, I am poison'd, mother, mak my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart and I fain wad lie doon."

_______________

1. fear


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 09:49 PM

My guess is that "floonery" is an error of some kind for the sensible "flooery."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 09:56 PM

Hi,

Grieg-Duncan E is melody no text and F and G are single stanzas of very similar text with melody:

F. Lord Ronald- sung by Mrs. Margaret Gillespie (b. 1841), of New Deer, sister of Rev. Duncan.

"What had ye for supper, Lord Ronald, my son,
What had ye for supper, my jolly young man?"
"A plate o' black fishes, mother mak my bed soon,
For I'm weary wi huntin, an' fain wad lie doon."

G. Lord Ronald- sung by Beatrice Alexander of Uday

"What had ye for supper, Lord Donald, my son,
What had ye for supper, my jolly young man?"
"A plate o' black fishes, mother mak my bed soon,
For I'm weary weary wanderin, an' fain wad lie doon."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 08:14 AM

Hi,

One of the earliest collected verses of the Irish-Scotch "pretty boy" versions appears in "Poems" by Mary Boddington, 1836, p. 313. She gives only one stanza and writes several more. According to Boddington:

"The first verse belongs to an old ballad, of which I could never find any more; the air, without being of remarkable beauty, is soft and characteristic: I do not know its Irish name."

"Oh, where were you all day?"
Irish--Air

"Oh, where were you all day,
My own pretty boy?
Oh, where were you all day,
My comfort and joy?
Fishing and fowling, mother: make my bed soon,
I've a pain in my heart, and I fain would lie down."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 08:51 AM

Hi,

In "The Complete Collection of Irish Music," Volume 1 (1902) George Petrie gives a melody for the ballad "Where, were you all the day my own pretty Boy" given him from Joyce.

The modern Irish adaptation of Henry my Son follows. This one is by Frank Harte, "Dublin Street Songs" listen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPRVpGX9Npw

"Henry my Son," Irish street ballad adapted by Frank Harte, 1967.

1. "Where have you been all day, Henery me son?
Where have you been all day, my beloved one?"
"Away on the meadow, away on the meadow,
Make my bed I’ve a pain in me head and I want to lie down."

2. And what did you have to eat?
Poison beans,

3. And what will you leave your mother?
A woolen vest,

4. And what will you leave your father?
A watch and chain,

5. And what will you leave your brother?
A blue suit

6. And what will you leave your children?
The key of heaven,

7. And what will you leave your sweetheart?
A rope to hang her,

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 09:30 AM

Hi,

This "pretty boy" Irish text is from 1848. It's included in the following complete text with notes from Joyce 1909 in his Old Irish Folk Music and Songs. At the end Joyce also translates a stanza of the Gaelic version I posted earlier in the thread:

812. WHERE WERE YOU ALL THE DAY, MY OWN PRETTY BOY?

This ballad, in various forms, and song to different airs, is found all over Europe. In all cases the subject of the ballad is a victim to poison. In England it is "King Henry, my son," who comes home to his mother to die of poisoned food given him by his sweetheart. (Ballad recently published by Miss Lucy Broadwood in "English Traditional Songs and Carols.") In Scotland it is "Lord Ronald" (for which see "Wood's Songs of Scotland "). In Germany it is "Grandmother Adder-Cook"; and there are versions in Italian, Swedish, Dutch, Magyar, and Wendish.

We have it in Ireland also, and in two distinct versions; one in the Irish language, the other in P'nglish. The Irish ballad, as recently taken down in the Co. Roscommon by the Rev. Father John MacDermott from an old man named Rogers, has been published with an interesting notice by Dr. Douglas Hyde, in "Eriu," ii. 77.

As to the English version: — I took down both words and music about the year 1848 from Peggy Cudmore, a little peasant girl of twelve or thirteen years of age, endowed with extraordinary musical taste and talent. I gave both to Dr. Petrie; and a version of the air will be found with my name in the Stanford-Petrie collection (No. 330). My copies are still among the Petrie papers, which are inaccessible to me; but I remember the following four verses and the whole of the air, which I give here, and which differs somewhat from the setting in Stanford-Petrie. Dr. Hyde informs us that a version of the English-Irish ballad was taken down in 1881 from a woman named Ellen Healy, who learned it from a Kerry girl in 1868: and I find the three verses he gives (in "Eriu") are almost identical with Peggy Cudmore's version. This air was first rescued and written down by me, and words and air are now brought together for the first time. I should also remark that I find, by a brief reference on a stray leaf of the Pigot collection, that Mr. Pigot had a copy of the air in one of his books; but I have not seen it. Peggy Cudmore's version here.

"Where were you all the day, my own pretty boy?
Where were you all the day, my truelove and joy?"
"I was fishing and fowling: mother, dress my bed soon;
There's a pain in my heart, and I want to lie down."

"What did you get for dinner, my own pretty boy?
What did you get for dinner, my truelove and joy?"
"Bread, mutton, and poison : mother, dress my bed soon;
There's a pain in my heart, and I want to lie down."

"What will you leave your mother, my own pretty boy?
What will you leave your mother, my truelove and joy?"
"A coach and four horses : mother, dress my bed soon;
There's a pain in my heart, and I want to lie down."

(He goes on— as questioned by his mother— leaving various bequests to his relations, till, in the last verse, he comes to his wife, who had given him the poisoned mutton.)

" What will you leave your married wife, my own pretty boy?
What will you leave your married wife, my truelove and joy?"
"A long rope to hang her: mother, dress my bed soon;
There's a pain in my heart, and I want to lie down."

The translation of the first verse of the Irish version, as given by Dr. Hyde in "Eriu," is:—

"What was in the dinner you got, my fair-haired heart-pulse and my treasure?
What was in the dinner you got, thou flower of young men?"
"An eel that Nuala gave me with deadly poison in it;
Oh, my head! — it is paining me, and I want to lie down."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 10:46 AM

Hi,

Curiously, and as could be expected, the same modern Irish version was disseminated during WWII and it was sung on the march by men of a battalion of the Wiltshire regiment stationed at and near Devizes in 1941 (see: Lord Randal My Son by J. H. P. Pafford Folklore, Vol. 63, No. 1 (Mar., 1952), pp. 26-29.). Here's the first stanza:

1. Where have you been all day Henry my son?
Where have you been all day my beloved one?
Fields, dear mother, fields, dear mother
O make my bed for I've pains in my head and I want to lie down.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:15 AM

Apologies if this doesn't belong, but as the "Henry my son" variant has been mentioned is this relevant Henry my son, George Dunn, Staffordshire,1971 ? It has a different set of 'contents' to the Irish version above.

When does 'Henry my son' first appear? Do we know where the stripped down 'green and yeller' parody as sung by Pete Seeger came from?


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:17 AM

Hi,

I'll post this last Italian traditional version of "L'Avvelenato" for comparison since it has a translation:

[Appendix]: Dove andashti ieri sera?
by A. Martin Freeman and Lucy E. Broadwood from Journal of the Folk-Song Society, Vol. 5, No. 19 (Jun., 1915), pp. 247-248

DOVE ANDASHTI IERI SERA?

SUNG BY DOMINICA PERSI (IN SERVICE). Noted by A. Martin Freeman FROM PIPERNO, ROMAGNA, ITALY, FEB. 18th, 1915.

w/Music

1. "Dove andashti ieri sera,
Bela brunetta, di, rosa frese' e rosa meschi?
Dove andashti ieri sera?"
"A farla una scena,
Bella brunetta, di, rosa frese' e rosa meschi?
A farla una scena."

2. "Chi cena fu la
Variant of last phrases.
A farla una scena.
Dove andashti ieri sera?

2 *Che cena fu la tua?
Bella brunetta, etc."
"Una foglia d'insalata.
Bella brunetta, etc.
Una foglia d'insalata."

3 "Ch' e cena avvelanata!" [as before]
"Andade a chiamra lo notaro."

4 Che t' e le fa lo notaro?
"Pe' fa lo teshtamento."

5 "Che ce lassa a patto ?"
". . . ."

6 "Che ce lassa a mammada?"
"Lo bastone della vecchiaja."

TRANSLATION.

1 "Where did you go last night,
Pretty brunette?
Tell me, fresh rose, and poor little rose.
Where did you go last night ?"
"I went to a supper,
Pretty brunette, etc.
I went to a supper."

2 "What did you have for supper " [as before]
"A leaf of salad."

3 "Which is a poisoned supper!"
"Go and call the notary."

4 "What is the notary for?"
"To make my will."

5 "What do you leave to your father?"
" . . . ."

6 "What do you leave to your mother?"
"The staff of old age."

Asked whether there might not be different words for the refrain in the second half of the verse, the singer answered that she thought she had dictated it correctly. When asked why she said "a farla" and not "a fare una cena," she answered "Because it is past." "Patto" and "mammada" are for "tuo padre" and "tua mamma." Similarly, in another of her songs, "maridomo "stood for" mio marito."

I must leave it to those who may be skilled in the dialect of Piperno, Romagna, to explain other difficulties. An obvious emendation is to read "scena" (in the sense of "cena") wherever the word occurs. But as I am not competent to edit the text, consisting of dialect infected with literary Italian, I have not touched it. -A. M. F.

"L'Avvelenato" of Dr. Bolza's collecting begins:

"Dove si sta jersira,
Figliuol mio caro, fiorito e gentil?
Dove st std jersira?"
"Sen sta dalla mia dama;
Signera Mama, mio core sta mal!
Sdn std dalla mia dama;
Ohime! ch'io moro, ohime!"

and a Venetian version, also quoted by Child, (from whose Ballads the above verse is taken), gives a very similar refrain to the second half of the stanza. Probably, therefore, Dominica Persi's repetition of "Bella brunetta, etc.," has replaced some forgotten words of the same kind as those beginning "Signora Mama."-L. E. B.
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:47 AM

Hi Jag,

Dunn's version is a slower version than Frank Harte's but they have the same text (with variations), phrasing, form etc-- so I'd say they are the same. It's Henry in Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 69 (c. 1827). From the recitation of Margaret Bain, in the parish of Blackford, Perthshire.

1 'What's become of your hounds, King Henrie, my son?
What's become of your hounds, my pretty little one?'

Of the Henry name Gilchrist comments (1907 JFSS): "The occurrence of the name "King Henry" in the ballad more commonly known as "Lord Rendal" is perhaps due to a reminiscence of Henry I's death from eating a dish of lanmpreys, on his return from a hunting expedition. It seems quite possible that a story arose that the dish had been tampered with, or that the "lampreys" were euphemistically named, and hence that the king died of poison, not simple gluttony. A somewhat similar poisoning circumstance in connection with the death of King John is recorded in the old chronicle which relates that a certain monk poisoned, with the venom from a toad, a wassail-cup, of which the king drank and thereafter swelled and died. See Scott's Bordler Minstrelsy, note to "Lord Rendal."

It is also imaginable that the "King Henry" referred to may have been the "Young King Henry" who was crowned in the lifetime of his father, Henry II, and died of "a violent fever and flix" while fighting against him, in France. There is a possibility that poison was suspected in his case, also; but it seems much more likely that the person who first introduced the name of Henry into the ballad had in mind the monarch who succumbed to the dish of lampreys
."

It's Henry in Germany late 1700s, early 1800s. See: the A version in Deutscher Liederhort by Ludwig Christian Erk, 1856, it begins:

A. Schlangenköchin. [Snake- cook]

"Wo bist du denn so lang gewesn, Heinerich, mein lieber Sohn?" ["Where have you been for so long, Henry, my dear son?"]
"Ich bin bei meinem Feinslieb chen gewesn, Frau Mutter mein, o weh!" ["I've been to my sweetheart's, my mother, oh my!"]

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 12:13 PM

Hi,

This is the first documented version with the Randall (Randal) name. It was collected in Suffolk and later sent in a letter dated April 19, 1775 written by Rev. P. Parsons of Wye. Child did not have the Percy Papers when he wrote Volume 1 and the headnotes to Lord Randal. Child took the Randal title from Scott who said that the common Scottish title was "Lord Ronald" as was further documented by Carpenter versions. I've taken the text directly from a copy of Parsons' letter to Percy:

Titled, "Ballad," by Parsons: found ESPB in Additions and Corrections in the second volume.

Parsons commented: "All the Songs that I have enclosed are Original, at least to me – That one on the other side [Randall my Son], a Friend took from the Spinning Wheel in Suffolk-"

There are some minor differences:

lines 13 and 16 Child inserts "the," has "sick at the heart"
line 23 Child has "I have"
line 41 Child has "colour"

There are no hyphens in Child's transcription-- all taken out and the incorrect capital letters have been changed:

       Ballad   

1
Where have you been to-day, Randall my Son?
Where have you been to-day, my Only Man?
“I have been hunting, Mother; - make my bed soon
“For I am Sick at heart,- fain wou’d lie down
“Dear Sister, hold my head, Dear Mother make my bed
“For I am Sick at heart, - fain wou’d lie down

2
What have you eat to-day, Randall my Son?
What have you eat to-day, my only man?
“I’ve eat an Eel, Mother; - make my Bed soon
“For I am sick at heart – fain wou’d lie down
“Dear Sister, hold &c

3
Who gave you Eels to-day, Randall my Son?
Who gave you Eels to-day, my Only Man?
“My own Sweetheart, Mother, - make my bed soon
“For I am Sick at heart – fain wou’d lie down
“Dear Sister, hold &c

4
What was the Color of it, Randall my Son?
What was the Color of it, my only man?
“It was neither green, grey, blue, nor black
“But speckled on the Back – make my bed soon
“For I am Sick at heart – fain would lie down
“Dear Sister, hold &c

5
Where Shall I make your Bed, Randall my Son?
Where shall I make your Bed, my Only Man?
“In the Church-yard, Mother, make my bed soon
“For I am Sick at heart – fain would lie down
“Dear Sister, hold &c

6
What will you leave her then, Randall my Son?
What will you leave her then, my only man?
“A Halter to hang her, Mother – make my bed soon
“For I am Sick at heart – fain would lie down
“Dear Sister, hold &c

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 12:32 PM

Hi,

Here are Gilchrist's comments on the Randal name (1907 JFSS):

While the poisoning story itself was probably current in Europe at an early period, the following suggestions may be offered as to the reason why the name "Lord Rendal" should be traditionally connected with the ballad in England and Scotland:

(1). - Randal III, sixth Earl of Chester, 1181, (died 1232) divorced his first wife, Constance, widow of Geoffrey Plantagenet, and married again, "for which sin, as many men suppose, this Ranulph [Randal] deserved to dye without issuie and to relinquish his honors unto the sonne of his sister." [The quotation is taken from The Catalogue of Hontor, 1610, an old peerage in the writer's possession].

(2). - He was succeeded by his nephew John, whose wife "was infamous for plotting to take away the life of her husband John by poison."-[Ibid.]

(a). - Following upon a contemporary belief that Randal left no heir because of his sin in divorcing his first wife and re-marrying, may there not have arisen the story that a young son and heir, child of the second wife, was poisoned by his "stepmother" (i.e. the divorced Constance) at her own house, returning to his mother to die? (This would explain the "Wee Croodlin' Doo" form of the story, with its conjunction of "stepmother " and "nammy," though, at the same time, the "mammy" of the nursery version may simply have been the child's foster-mother or nurse).

If, when the real circumstances had somewhat faded from memory, people wished to find a romantic reason for the fact of Randal III's leaving no heir and the earldom thus passing to his nephew, a divine judgment might be the explanation offered by the priest and the scholar, but the common folk would, I think, be much more likely to seek a human agent in the first wife, dishonoured, jealous, and revengeful, and thus to attach to Randal an already existing ballad-story. (It will be remembered that Constance's own son, Prince Arthur, had been done to death).

(b). - The fact, or story, that Randal's nephew and successor to the title was poisoned by his own wife may later have become attached to Randal himself by confusion with the (presumptive) poisoning legend about Randal's young son and heir. These suggestions do not, of course, interfere with the circumstance of the Lord Randal story being current in Italy or other countries at a much earlier date. They merely aim at explaining why the hero should be called Lord Randal in the English form of the ballad. (See Chappell's Popular Music, p. 10, for an account of the services English minstrels rendered to Randal, when besieged in 12I2. This (or another) Randal seems to have been early a popular hero, for Longland describes his Friar as much better acquainted with the "rimes of Robinhode and of Randal, erle of Chester," than with his Paternoster)- A. G. G.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 01:36 PM

Hi,

Jag mentioned George Dunn's version recorded in December, 1971 and gave a link (several posts back). It was recorded by Roy Palmer and appears in Everyman's Book of English Country Songs. The sister poison's Henry which is a twist. The form and text are nearly the same as the Irish version by Harte which was also known by soldiers during WWII (see Wiltshire variant dated 1941.)

Henry, My Son- George Dunn, 1971

"Where have you been all day, Henry, my son?
Where have you been all day, my beloved one?"
"In the meadows, in the meadows
Make my bed, there's a pain in my head
And I want to lie down and die."

"What have you had to eat, Henry my son?
What have you had to eat, my beloved one?"
"Poisoned berries, poisoned berries
Make my bed, there's a pain in my head
And I want to lie down and die."

"Who gave you poisoned berries?..."
'My sister..."

"What will you leave your father?..."
"Gold and silver..."

"What will you leave your mother?..."
"Love and kisses..."

"What will you leave your sister?..."
"A rope to hang her..."

"How shall I make your bed?..."
"Long and narrow..."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 02:28 PM

Hi,

After checking a bit, I found an earlier version (1926) of the modern "Henry My Son" version in "Songs Collected by Francis M. Collinson" in the Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Vol. 5, No. 1 (Dec., 1946). The father gives Henry poison in this one. Here are Collinson's notes:

Miss Phyllis Johnson of Coventry learned " Henry my son" from another child when she was a patient in a children's hospital in 1926. She says she remembered the tune because she liked it, and the words because they excited her curiosity in that Henry, having eaten poisoned berries should have a pain in his head! She has carried the song in her memory for twenty years and sang it to me clearly and with good rhythm. She was not sure whence the child came from whom she learned the song, but imagined it might have been somewhere in the Black Country.

HENRY MY SON - Noted from the singing of Miss Phyllis Johnson of Coventry, by Francis M. Collinson.

1. Where have you been all day Henry my son?
Where have you been all day, my beloved one?
In the green fields, in the green fields;
Oh make my bed, I've a pain in my head, and I want to lie down.

2. What have you had to eat, Henry my son?
What have you had to eat, my beloved one?
"Oh poisoned berries; oh poisoned berries.
Oh make my bed, I've a pain in my head, and I want to lie down."

3. Who gave you those to eat, Henry my son?
Who gave you those to eat, my beloved one?
Father, dear mother; father, dear mother.
Oh make my bed, etc."

4. How shall I make your bed, Henry my son?
How shall I make your bed, my beloved one?
"Deep, long and narrow; deep, long and narrow.
Oh make my bed, etc."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:05 PM

Hi,

The Celtic review version of 1906 is a Welsh version that can be viewed here: https://archive.org/stream/celticreview02edinuoft#page/298 It dates back about 50 years (1856) when learned by Davies' mother.

The author, J. Glyn Davies, makes some claims about the original ballad date based on some of the phrases which warrant further investigation. The translation is found at footnote 4 at the bottom of this post. Here's the text:

A WELSH BALLAD
J. Glyn Davies (Welsh Library, Aberystwyth)

I TOOK down the following ballad and its tune from the singing of my mother, Mrs. John Davies of Liverpool, who had heard it sung at Talysarn, Carnarvonshire, nearly half a century ago, by her eldest sister. I do not know of any other instance of its existence in Wales, nor indeed of any other ballad of a similar type.

It is obviously fragmentary, and must have been so when my mother heard it, for the last verse was regarded as an anticlimax pour rire. From the fairly regular distribution of stressed and unstressed syllables, I would assign the utmost age-limit of the present form of the ballad to the mid-sixteenth century[1].

The phrase 'claf iawn y w f'enaid' [very sick is my soul] I should not expect to find in Welsh popular poetry much after the close of the sixteenth century. Between metric and diction, I feel tempted to put the ballad down to the first half of the seventeenth century.

In the following arrangement of words and tune, each of the first two lines is repeated : —
[with music]

1. Tif fy mab anwyl ble buost ti ddoe;
yn hela sgwarnogod: mam cweiriwch fy ngwely; (repeat)
Claf iawn yw f'enaid yn ymyl terfynu.

2. O fy mab anwyl be gefist ti'n fwyd :
Neidar lie sly wan[2]: mam cweiriwch fy ngwely
Claf iawn yw f'enaid yn ymyl terfynu.

3. O fy mab anwyl be roddi di'th blant :
Bendith Duw nefoedd : mam cweiriwch fy ngwely ;
Claf iawn yw f'enaid yn ymyl terfynu.

4. O fy mab anwyl be roddi di'th wraig :
Cortyn i'w chrogi : mam cweiriwch fy ngwely ;
Claf iawn yw f'enaid yn ymyl terfynu[3].

When I took down the words, some five years ago, I had hda jpysgodyn [hunting a fish] instead of hela sgwarnogod[4] [hunting hares]. Neidar lie slywan in the second verse points to a North Walian origin: to pack lly somen into two syllables
would be difficult, without mutilating it beyond recognition.

1. 'O whare hae ye been a' day, Lord Donald, my son ?
O whare hae ye been a' day, my jollie young man?
"I 've been awa courtin : mither, mak my bed sune.
For I 'm sick at the heart, and I fain wad lie doun.'

2. 'What wad ye hae for your supper?' etc,
'I've gotten my supper:' etc.

3. 'What did you get to your supper?' etc.
'A dish of sma' fishes: ' etc.

4. 'Whare gat ye the fishes?' etc.
'In my father's black ditches:' etc.

5. "What like were your fishes?' etc.
'Black backs and speckl'd bellies:' etc.

6. 'I fear ye are poison'd' etc.
'Oh yes! I am poison'd:' etc.

7. 'What will ye leave to your father?' etc.
'Baith my houses and land:' etc.

8. 'What will ye leave to your brither?' etc.
'My horse and the saddle: ' etc.

9. "What will ye leave to your sister?' etc.
'Baith my gold box and rings:' etc.

10. 'What will ye leave to your true-love ? etc.
'The tow and the halter, for to hang on yon tree,
And lat her hang there, for the poysoning of me.'

There are many versions of 'Lord Randal,' and I have only access to three. Possessors of Child's large edition may be able to find closer parallels, but at any rate, there can be no doubt as to the identity of the Welsh ballad. It will be observed that the metric is practically identical with Version B, the only difference being the repetition of the second line, which I look upon as an excrescence. Verses of five lines are rare in Welsh, and of a different type from this, whereas the same Langzeile occurs in rhyming couplets, and is common in quatrain form.

I am indebted to my colleague, Mr. David Jenkins, Mus. Bac, for revising my score of the curious and hitherto unpublished tune, and to my brother, Mr. G.M.L. Davies, for sending me a fresh and attested copy of tune and words.
__________________________

Footnotes:

1. I hope to publish shortly an account of metrical changes in the sixteenth century, where the data for this statement will be given.

2. slywauy N. Wales metathesis of llysoweti.

3. missing

4 (translation)
1. My dear son, where hast thou been yesterday:
    hunting hares; mother make my bed,
    very sick is my soul, near its end.
2. My dear son, what hadst thou for food:
    a snake instead of an eel; mother, etc.
3. My dear son, what wilt thou give to thy children:
    the blessing of God of Heaven; mother, etc.
4. My dear son, what wilt thou give to thy wife:
    a rope to hang her; mother, etc.

5 Spoken W. for ysgyfarnogod.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:43 PM

Hi,

This Irish "pretty boy" version dates into the 1800s. It was given in a short article written by Joseph J. MacSweeney (The Modern Language Review, Vol. 13, No. 3; July, 1918, pp. 325-327). His source is his mother about 1912, who learned it near Blarney in the County Cork. She is also his source for Child 3. Apparently, she learned both about 50 years ago in the 1860s (see: notes for False Knight, 1912). MacSweeney comments:

"I know the ballad to be current in Ireland and I give the following version exactly as I heard it:"

'Where were you all day, my own pretty boy?
Where were you all day, my comfort and joy?'
'I was fishing and fowling; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to the heart, and I want to lie down.'

'What will you leave your father, my own pretty boy?
What will you leave your father, my comfort and joy?'
'My house and my lands; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to the heart, and I want to lie down.'

'What will you leave your sister, my own pretty boy ?
What will you leave your sister, my comfort and joy?'
'My carriage and four, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to the heart, and I want to lie down.'

'What will you leave your brother, my own pretty boy?
What will you leave your brother, my comfort and joy?'
'My boots and my spurs; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to the heart, and I want to lie down.'

'What will you leave your wife, my own pretty boy?
What will you leave your' wife, my comfort and joy?'
'A rope for to hang her; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to the heart, and I want to lie down.'

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 04:11 AM

If (as generally in this series of threads) we're exploring a ballad more broadly than just the versions collected by Carpenter, then one more that deserves mention is the odd Welsh one of which two verses were included in the Caedmon Folksongs of Britain and re-issued as the Rounder CD 1161-1775-2. In one of the verses not included on the CD but quoted in translation in the booklet, the hero leaves to his sister a sewing machine - which implies a recent origin for that version. (However the quoted Welsh words "In jian i wnio" look odd to me so I have PM'd sian, west wales to enquire.)


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 09:24 AM

Hi Richard,

If you can post, text/translation, that would be great. The scope of ballads on this thread are the Carpenter versions and related British and sometimes other foreign ballads. There was already a thread on US versions. We're trying to reach some new conclusions about origin and classification. In some ballads, examining the Carpenter versions are crucial to understanding the British Child ballads as a whole. The Lord Ronald (Randal) Carpenter versions are not unusual-- they confirm however, that at least in Scotland, "Lord Ronald/Donald" is the main Scottish branch-- this contradicts Child's opening remark: "Scott says that the hero was more generally termed Lord Ronald: but in the versions that have come down to us this is not so."

At this point we're exploring Child 12 ballad types and we've seen several examples: The "Henry my son" ballad of the 1900s; the "pretty boy" Irish/Scotch; the "Lord Ronald/Donald" Scottish type; The English "Randal" type and a number of foreign versions which constitute separate ballad types. The "Croodlin Doo" has not been explored-- and no versions of it were found (at least I could find) by Carpenter. The question is: why in 1931 where no versions of Croodlin Doo collected in Scotland?

Since the Carpenter texts have been given, we'll be moving on to Child 13 soon and I'll be assimilating the British and foreign texts of Child 12 for the next week. Any further British and other(foreign) versions of Child 12 or suggestions about ballad origin would be helpful now before we move on. There also a few Carpenter versions of the related "Tommy my boy/Billy Boy" which could be included here.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 04:46 PM

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone knows the earliest date of "Croodin Doo"? and is it "Croodlin" or "Croodin"? I've always thought of the title as "cooing dove." Agree?

Walter Scott in 1803 knew a version of it for in his notes to Lord Randal he commented, "there is a very similar song, in which, apparently to excite greater interest in the nursery, the handsome young hunter is exchanged for a little child, poisoned by a false step-mother." This version would take it back to the late 1700s or so.

In 1870 Chamber's give in his Popular Rhymes of Scotland, 1870, p. 51. "Mrs. Lockhart's copy." Since Mrs. Lockhart is Sophia Scott who was Walter Scott's eldest daughter (born in 1799), could this be the same version? Scott was in Abbotsford circa 1811, his daughter would have been 12, at least.

Chambers says, "This beautiful little ballad, of which the above is Mrs Lockhart's copy, as she used to sing it to her father at Abbotsford, is the same as a ballad called Grandmother Addercook, which is popular in Germany."

So Chamber's concludes it's derived from the German version because of the step-mother? Comments?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 04:49 AM

Richie
> If you can post, text/translation, that would be great.

As with many of the ballads in this series of LPs/CDs, the recording is a composite of one or two verses each from several singers.

Here is my transcription, as accurate as I can make it, of the relevant text in the booklet, complete with what I reckon to be mistakes. There is much to be dubious about.

On the recording the first line of the verse is repeated, as shown in the booklet for the translation but not shown for the Welsh. The question mark at the end of the second line in the first quoted verse clearly ought to be at the end of the first line, as it is in the next verse.

If sian, west wales gets back to us she can probably offer some corrections.
--------------------------------------
Eirlys and Eddis Thomas:

“Ple buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam,
Pysgota, mam anwyl, o ch'weiriwch fy ngwely?”
“’Rwy’n glaf, ’rwy’n glaf,
A’m calon ar fyned i’r bedd.”

“Paliw oedd dy bysgod, mab anwyl dy fam?”
“Rhai brithion, mam anwyl,
o ch'weiriwch fy ngwely?”
(Etc.)
“’Rwy’n glaf, ’rwy’n glaf,
A’m calon ar fyned i’r bedd.”
(Etc.)

Translation:
“O all the night, where were you, mother’s dear son?
O all the night, where were you, mother’s dear son?”
“Last night I was fishing, oh make up my bed,
For I’m sick, I’m sick,
And my heart’s on the brink of the grave.”
“And what color were the fish, mother’s dear son?”
“They were speckled and sparkled . . .
(Etc.)

Here is the rest of story (not sung here):

“And what for your father?”
“Five pounds.”
[Pum punt.]

“And what for your sister?”
"A sewing machine.”
[In jian I wnio.]

“And what for your mother?”
“A fortune.”
[Ffortiwn.]
“And what for your sweetheart?”
“A rope to hang her.”
[Cortyn iw chrogi.]


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 06:30 AM

Mary Humphreys posted the Welsh version back in 2003: Mab Annwyl dy Fam; it is also online with translation (not checked) Mab Annwyl dy Fam also in this publication Blodeugerdd Barddas o Gerddi Rhydd y Ddeunawfed Ganrif (needs cookies) (No.149 page 387)

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 11:29 AM

Hi,

Gr8 ty Richard and Mick. I also have Joe Heaney's version from c. 1940 (Joe sang in Irish exclusively when he was young and thought in Irish- it's on the same thread as Mick's link-- but it's unattributed there) and the 1881 version posted above which has one stanza transcribed by Joyce.

I just transcribed three more German versions and have 5 total, plus three Swedish and four Italian. I'm starting to sort out the versions and have this as a preliminary sketch (in approximate chronological order):

A. "L'Avvelenato" (The Poisoned") dated 1629 from a fragment printed in Verona, Italy, 1656 from stanzas quoted by Lorenzo Panciatichi.
    a. ["L'Avvelenato"] no title given, the opening three lines of "L'Avvelenato" from a blind singer named Camillo called "il Bianchino." The lines and four introductory lines were printed in Veronese broadside dated 1629.
    b. ["L'Avvelenato"] no title given, from Lorenzo Panciatichi who refered to the ballad in a "Cicalata in lode della Padella e della Frittura," recited at the Crusca, September 24, 1656, and in such manner as shows that it was well known. He quotes the first question of the mother, "Dove andastù a cena," etc. To this the son answered, he says, that he had been poisoned with a roast eel: and the mother asking what the lady had cooked it in, the reply was, In the oil pot.

B. "Lord Randal" ("Randle" names, "Randal, my son") standard English, c. 1775 Suffolk- Parsons; also Scottish; American. Includes variant names of Randal. Child A, S.

C. "Lord Ronald (Lord Donald)." Scottish, Scots Musical Museum, 1793, No. 327, from Bums' MS.

D. "Tiranti, my Son." Child I, American, includes the "Soper" versions c. 1790s but earlier.

E. "Croodlin' Doo" Scottish late 1700s
    a. "Wee Croodin Doo" from Walter Scott vis his daughter dated late 1700s by published by Chambers in 1870.

F. "Grossmutter Schlangenköchin," (Grandmother Adder-Cook), 1802 but late 1700s also "Schlangenköchin,"
    a. "Grossmutter Schlangenköchin." From oral transmission in Maria's [Clem. Brentano's] novel "Godwi. Bremen, 1802." B. 2, p.
    b. "Grossmutter Schlangenköchin." 1802 Knaben Wunderhern
    c. "Die Schlangenköchin," from Hessen, N. Germany, published in 1838 by Kretzschmer in From: Deutsche Volkslieder mit ihren Original-Weisen. Reprinted many times including Broadwood, JFSS.
    d. "Schlangenköchin" from the neighborhood of Wilsnack, Brandenburg, from Deutscher Liederhort by Ludwig Christian Erk, 1856.

G. "Den Lillas Testamente" Swedish, dated late 1700s, early 1800s

H. "My Pretty Boy" Irish, then American c. 1836
    a. "Oh, where were you all day?" single stanza from "Poems" by Mary Boddington, 1836, p. 313.

I. "Tif fy mab anwyl " (My Dear Son) Welsh c. 1856
    a. "My Dear Son" Mrs. John Davies of Liverpool, who had heard it sung at Talysarn, Carnarvonshire, nearly half a century ago, by her eldest sister.

J. "Amhrán na hEascainne" (Song of the Eel) Gaelic early date 1868 sung in Gaelic only
    a. [no title ] Dr. Hyde informs from taken down in 1881 from a woman named Ellen Healy, who learned it from a Kerry girl in 1868 publish in "Eriu" 1907.
    b. "Amhrán na hEascainne" (Song of the Eel) sung by Joe Heaney dated. c. 1940

K. "Henry, my son" ("Henery, my Son") modern c. 1900s variants Irish, English dated 1904 Sharp, 1926 Collinson.

* * * *

So I have A-K so far. I know there are other foreign version but Italy, Germany and Sweden have multiple versions so I'm limiting the scope to a few variants from these country.

Suggestions welcome,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 01:18 PM

Hi,

This is the 5th German translation I've done and since I don't speak German, any corrections are appreciated. I'm confused about the title, Step-mother-- since there is no step mother in the text-- is the dialogue between the child and the step-mother?

Alte hoch- und niederdeutsche Volkslieder: Liedersammlung - Page 272, Johann Ludwig Uhland, 1844.

"Stiefmutter."

1. Kind, wo bist du hin gewesen?
Kind, sage dus mir!
,nach meiner mutter schwerer,
wie we ist mir!

2. Kind, was gaben sie dir zu eßen?
Kind, sage dus mir!
,eine brüe mit pseffer,
wie we ist mir!

3. Kind was gaben sie dir zu trinken?
   Kind, sage dus mir!
,eine glas mit rotem weine,
wie we ist mir!

4. Kind, was gaben sie den hunden?
kind, sage dus mir!
,eine brüe mit pfeffer,
wie we ist mir!“

5. Kind, was machten denn die hunde?
Kind, sage dus mir!
,ste sturben zur selben stunde,
wie we ist mir!

6. Kind, was soll dein vater haben?
   Kind, sage dus mir!
,einen stul in dem himmel,
   wie we ist mir!

7. "Kind, was soll deine mutter haben?
   Kind, sage dus mir!"
,einen stul in der hölle,
   wie we ist mir!
__________


From: Old High and Low German Folk Songs: Liedersammlung - Page 272 by Johann Ludwig Uhland, 1844.

"Stepmother."

1. Child, where have you been?
    Child, tell me!
At my mother's sister's (house),
    How we are!

2. Child, what did you eat?
    Child, tell me!
A broth well-peppered,
    How we are!

3. Child what did you have to drink?
    Child, tell me!
A glass of red wine,
    How we are!

4. "Child, what did you give the dogs?
   Child, tell me!"
"A broth with pepper,
   How we are!"

5. "Child, what did the dogs do?
   Child, tell me!"
"They died on the spot!
   How we are!"

6. Child, what should your father have?
    Child, tell me!
A place in Heaven,
    How we are!

7. Child, what should your mother have?
    Child, tell me!
A place in hell,
    How we are!
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 01:28 PM

Two versions here
Jim Carroll

19(a)- "Buried in Kilkenny" (Roud 10, Child 12)  Mary Delaney

"What have you for your dinner now,
My own darling boy?
What have you for your dinner,
My comfort and my joy?"
"I had bread, beef and cold poison,
Mother, will you dress my bed soon,
I have a pain in my heart and
I long to lie down."

"What would you leave your mother now,
My own darling boy?
What would you leave your mother,
My comfort and my joy?"
"I leave her the keys of treasure,
Mother, will you dress my bed soon,
I have a pain in my heart and
I’d long to lie down."

"What will you leave your father now,
My own darling boy?
What will you leave your father,
My comfort and joy?"
"I will leave him a coach and four horses,
Mother will you dress my bed soon,
For I have a pain in my heart and
I would long to lie down."

"What would you leave your mother now,
My own darling boy?
Oh, what would you leave your mother,
My comfort and my joy?"
"I will leave her the keys of all treasure,
Mother, dress my bed soon,
I have a pain in my heart and
Wouldn’t I long to lie down."

What will you leave your wife now,
What would you leave your wife now,
My comfort and joy?"
I’ll leave her the long rope for to hang her
Mother, will you dress my bed soon
I have a pain in my heart and
I would long to lie down."

"What will you leave your children,
Me own darling boy?
What will you leave your children,
My comfort my joy?"
"I’ll let them follow their mother,
Will you dress my bed soon,
I’ve a pain in my heart and
I would long to lie down."

"Then where will you now be buried now,
My own darling boy?
Where will you now be buried,
My comfort and joy?"
"I’ll be buried in Kilkenny
Where I’ll take a long night’s sleep,
With a stone to my head
And a scraith* to my feet."

[* scraith = scraw, sod of turf - Irish]

Although popular in England, Scotland and America, the ballad of Lord Randal is not often found in Ireland except in fragmentary form or in the children’s version, Henry My Son. According to the collector, Tom Munnelly, it is more common among traditional singers in Irish than in English and is one of the few Child ballads to be found in the Irish language.
The handful of versions found in Ireland include an 11 verse set taken down by ballad scholar, Francis James Child, from the reciting of Ellen Healy ‘as repeated to her by a young girl in ‘Lackabairn, Co Kerry, who had heard it from a young girl around 1868. A version from Conchubhar Ó Cochláin, a labourer of Ballyvourney, Co Cork, in 1914, like Paddy’s, places the action of the ballad in Kilkenny:

"Where will you be buried, my own purtee boy,
Where will you be buried, my true loving joy?"
"In the church of Kilkenny and make my hole deep,
A stone at my head and a flag to my feet,
And lave me down easy and I’ll take a long sleep."

We also got it from fiddle player, storyteller and singer, Martin ‘Junior’ Crehan, a farmer from Co Clare in 1992.
Mary Delaney sang it to us the first time we met her, saying "You probably won’t like this one, it’s too old."
Ref: The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads, B H Bronson, Princeton Univ Press, 1959.
Other CDs: Mary Delaney - Topic TSCD 667; John MacDonald - Topic TSCD 653; Ray Driscoll - EFDSS CD 002; Frank Proffitt - Folk-Legacy CD1; George Spicer - MTCD 311-2; Jeannie Robertson, Thomas Moran, Elizabeth Cronin - Rounder CD 1775; Gordon Hall - Country Branch CBCD 095.

(b) Irish Language version
Amhran Na Heascainne ~ The Song Of Toe Eel (Lord Randal) Roud 10. Child 12.

From interview with Joe conducted by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger (circa 1965)
Ewan Maccoll: "You have a version of Lord Randal Joe, I've just remembered, don't you?"
Joe Heaney: "I have - a Gaelic version. I'll sing that. 1 mean, you know the story of that better than I do."

"Ce raibh túi ó mhaidin, a dhearthairfn ó?
Ce raibh tu ó mhaidin, a phlur na bhfear ó?"
"Bhi me ag iascach 's ag foghlaeireacht,
Cóirigh mo leaba dhom
Ta me tinn fó mo chroi agus ligidh dhom luí."

"Ceard a d'ith tu ar do dhinnear, a dhearthairfn ó?
Ceard a d'ith tu ar do dhinnear, a phlur na bhfear ó?"
"Ó eascainn a raibh lub uirtbi, Nimh fuinte briiite uirthi
Ta me tinn fó mo chroi agus bead go deo, deo."

"Ceard fhagfas tu ag do d(h)aidf, a dhearthairín ó?
Ceard fhagfas tu ag do d(h)aidí, a phlur na bhfear ó?"
Ó eochair mo stabia aige,
Sin 's mo lair aige
Ta me tinn fó mo chroi agus head go deo, deo."

"Ceard fhagfas tu ag do dhearthair, a dhearthairfn ó?
Ceard fhagfas tu ag do dhearthair, a phlur na bhfear ó?"
"Ó eochair mo thrunc aige, Sin 's mile punt aige,
Ta me tinn fó mo chroí agus bead go deo, deo."

"Ceard fhagfas tú ag do mbaithrín, a dhearthairfn d?
Ceard fhagfas tu ag do mhaithrm, a phlur na bhfear d?"
"Da bhfagfainn saol brach aici,
D'fhagfainn croí craite aici,
Ta me tinn fó mo chrof, agus bead go deo, deo."

"Ceard fhagfas tu ag do chleamhnaí, a dhearthairfn d?
Ceard fhagfas tu ag do chleamhnaí, a phlur na bhfear ó?"
"O fuacht fada agus seachran, 'S oiche ar gach bothan,
Ta me tinn fó mo chroi agus bead go deo, deo.

"Ceard fhagas tu ag do bhean phosta, a dhearthairm ó?
Ceard fhagfas tú ag do bhean phdsta, a phlur na bhfear ó?"
"Ó Ifreann mar dhuiche aici; Na Flaithis a bheith dunta uirthi
Ta me tinn fó mo chroí agus bead go deo, deo."

Translation
"Where were you since morning dear brother?
" Where were you since morning, flower of all men?"
"I was fishing and fowling ~
Prepare my bed I am sick in my heart and let me lie down."

"What did you eat for your dinner, dear brother?
What did you eat for your dinner, flower of all men?"
"A coiled eel
With kneaded and mashed poison on it ~
I am sick in my heart and I will be forever."

"What will you leave to your daddy, dear brother?
What will you leave to your daddy, flower of all men?"
"The key of my stable to him.
That and my mare to him ~
I am sick in my heart and I will be forever."

"What will you leave to your brother, dear brother?
What will you leave to your brother, flower of all men?"
"The key of my trunk to him,
That and a thousand pounds to him ~
I am sick in my heart and I will be forever."

"What will you leave to your dear mother, dear brother?
What will you leave to your mother, flower of all men?"
I would leave to her eternal life
I would leave to her a tormented heart ~
I am sick in my heart and I will be forever."

"What will you leave to your in-law, dear brother?
What will you leave to your in-law, flower of all men?"
"A long cold and wandering
And every night in a different house ~
I am sick in my heart and 1 will be forever."

"What will you leave to your wife, dear brother?
What will you leave to your wife, flower of alt men?"
"Hell to be her home And Heaven to be closed on her –
I am sick in my heart and I will be forever."

Lord Randal is a ballad found in English as well as many other European languages - the oldest dated version comes from Verona in 1629. Although the English language has been spoken in Ireland for almost 800 years, it is a remarkable fact that the tradition of singing narrative ballads, so prominent among English-speaking people, is hardly represented in the Irish-Language tradition at all. Lord Randal is however, a well-known exception and Irish -Language versions have been collected in many parts of Ireland.
The story told concerning the song in Joe's locality is that the song was composed by the brother of a wealthy man, whose wife died and who married again a younger woman. The younger woman was not content with an older man and decided to murder him by giving him a poisoned eel to eat.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 03:16 PM

TY Jim, happy birthday!

Here's another Welsh version "Mab Annwyl Dy Fam" (Your mother's dear son) from Smithsonian Folkways Folkways Records FW 6835, [1954] by Meredydd Evans (source of Mary Humphreys' version?). My translation may need some improvement. Since one of the gifts is "a sewing machine" this seems like a modern adaptation (1900s). If anyone knows any other Welsh versions please post:

"Mab Annwyl Dy Fam"

"P'le buost ti neithiwr,
mab annwyl dy fam?"
"Pyagola, mam annwyl;
O! c'weiriwch fy ngwely,
'rwy'n glaf, 'rwy'n glaf,
A'm calon ar fyned i'r bedd."

Pa liw oedd dy bysgod,
mab annwyl dy fam?
Rhai brithion, mam annwyl;
O! c'weiriwch fy ngwely,
'rwy'n glaf,
A'm calon ar fyned i'r bedd.

Be 'roi di dy dad,
mab annwyl dy fam?
O pum punt, mam annwyl;
O! c'weiriwch fy ngwely,
'rwy'n glaf, 'rwy'n glaf,
A'm calon ar fyned i'r bedd.

Be 'roi di dy chwaer,
mab annwyl dy fam?
Wel injan wnio;
O! c'we iriweh fy ngwely,
'rwy'n glaf,
A'm calon ar fyned i'r bedd.

Be 'roi di dy fam,
mab annwyl dy fam?
Wel ffortiwn, mam annwyl;
O! c'weiriwch fy ngWely,
'rwy'n glai, 'rwy'n glai,
A'm calon ar fyned i'r bedd.

Be 'roi di dy gariad,
mab annwyl dy fam?
Wei cortyn i'w chrogi;
O! c'weiriwch fy ngwely,
'rwy'n glaf, 'rwy'n glaf,
A'm calon ar fyned i'r bedd.

____________________

"Mab Annwyl Dy Fam" Translation:

(Your Mother's Dear Son)

"Where were you last night,
Your mother's dear son?"
"I went fishing, dear mother,
Oh make my bed,
I am getting sicker
and nearing my grave."

"What was the colour or your fish,
Your mother's dear son?"
"Speckled, dear mother,
Oh make my bed,
I am getting sicker
and nearing my grave."

"What will you give your father,
Your mother's dear son?"
"Five pounds, dear mother!
Oh make my bed,
I am getting sicker
and nearing my grave."

"What will you give your sister,
Your mother's dear son?"
"A sewing machine, dear mother."
Oh make my bed,
I am getting sicker
and nearing my grave."

"What will you give your mother ,
Your mother's dear son?"
"A fortune, dear mother
Oh make my bed,
I am getting sicker
and nearing my grave."

"What will you give your sweetheart,
Your mother's dear son?"
"A rope to hang her,
Oh make my bed,
I am getting sicker
and nearing my grave."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 04:58 AM

Two more small comments on the Welsh versions.

One of the bits of wording in the CD booklet that didn't look right to me was "In jian I wnio". The other transcriptions of the Welsh versions tell us that it should be "injian i wnio". The word "injian" is presumably a Welsh adoption of English "engine".

Besides the obvious point about dating, I wonder whether this insertion of the modern sewing machine and five pounds into a timeless story was intended as a joke, with that whole version being something of a spoof.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 12:39 PM

Hi,

Richard, I doubt it was a joke. There are some earlier Welsh versions that are referenced before the 1950s.

Looking for Elizabeth Cronin's text or recording (online) of Lord Rendal recorded by Seamus Ennis and other Irish or Welsh versions,

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 03:19 PM

The Elizabeth Cronin book lists just the one verse:

What did you have for your breakfast, my own darling boy?
What did you have for your breakfast, my comfort and joy?
A cup of cold poison, mother dress my bed soon,
For there's a pain through my heart and I'd want to lie down.

Source: BBC 21996 (29 Aug 54)Kennedy & Lomax

According to the notes this verse is the same as v2 from Healy in Child.

The notes reference a another Irish version: 2v in English + 1 in Irish from Michael Cronin (brother in law) recorded by Jean Richie and George Picklow.

There are also references to articles on the song in Irish. I'll scan the page for you if you'd like.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 03:37 PM

Hi,

This version from Publications - Volume 117 - Page 181 Folklore Society (Great Britain)- 1952, reportedly was from Wales. It's dated c. 1924 and is the standard modern UK version of "Henry my Son." The following info was supplied:

The version I heard was collected from a Birmingham washerwoman exactly as she sang it, grammatical mistakes and all. She used to sing it whilst possing the clothes, and brought down the posser with a violent thump at the final curse.She told Miss Silver, who collected it from her, that she had first heard it from a man who came from Wales. I should perhaps add that this version was collected very shortly before I heard it. I enclose a copy of the verse in case you would like to see it and compare it with Mr. Pafford's version. Yours faithfully, Christina Hole

[Henry My Son]

1. Where have you been all day, Henery my son?
Where have you been all day, my pretty one?
In the fields, dear mother, In the fields, dear mother.
Make up my bed — I've a pain in my head,
And I want to lie down,
And I want to lie down.

2. What have you been eating, Henery my son?, etc.
Eels, dear mother, etc.

3. What colour were them eels, Henery my son?, etc.
Green and yaller, etc.

4. Who gave to you them eels, Henery my son?, etc.
My sister, dear mother, etc.

5.What will you leave your father, Henery my son?, etc.
My coach and horses, etc.

6. What will you leave your mother, Henery my son?, etc.
The Keys of Heaven, etc.

7. What will leave your sister, Henery my son?, etc.
My curse for ever, etc.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Kevin Werner
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 03:39 PM

Richie,
here's a sound recording of Elizabeth Cronin singing Lord Randall:
https://soundcloud.com/user-860765554/elizabeth-cronin-lord-randal

It's only a fragment, it seems that this was all she knew of the ballad.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 05:33 PM

Wow TY Kevin and Mick,

You can email to Richiematt7@gmail.com if you want.

Now if you or someone can explain Broadwood's two versions of "King Henry my Son" dated 1907 JFSS and 1908 English Traditional Songs and Carols, I will be grateful. They have the same melody and both are from Miss Lattimer, and are both from Cumberland however the texts are different and the ballad info is different. Two different versions?

Here's the one sung by Mr. Lattimer of Carlisle learnt, very long since when he was in Cumberland, as a boy. The JFSS says "Noted by Miss Lattimer, communicated by Sydney Nicholson" but Nicholson was "organist at Carlisle Cathedral in 1905 and he turned in one or two songs from various sources" so he obviously didn't need for her to write the melody down.

From: Songs from Cumberland & Northumberland
by Frank Kidson, Lucy E. Broadwood, A. G. Gilchrist, Ralph Vaughan Williams, Cecil J. Sharp
Journal of the Folk-Song Society, Vol. 3, No. 10 (1907), pp. 39-46

King Henry my Son

"Oh, where have you been wandering, King Henery, my son,
[Oh,] where have you been wandering, my pretty one?"
"I've been to my sweetheart's,mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to the heart, and would fain lay me down."

"And what did your sweetheart give you, King Henery, my son,
What did your sweetheart give you, my pretty one?"
"She fried me some paddocks,* mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and would fain lay me down."

"And what will you leave your sweetheart, King Henery, my son?
What will you leave your sweetheart, my pretty one?
"My garter to hang her, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and would fain lay me down!

*toads

* * * *

A bit baffled, which is why it takes so long to go through all the variants
Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 05:55 PM

Hi,

Here are the text and notes from English Traditional Songs and Carols
edited by Lucy Etheldred Broadwood, 1908

KING HENRY, MY SON (p. 96).

Miss M. B. Lattimer, living in Carlisle, noted this fine air, which she learned in childhood, some time before 1868, from Margaret Scott (now Mrs. Thorburn), a young servant in her home. The singer came from Wigton, in Cumberland, and had learnt the ballad from her father, who died when she was nine years old. Miss Lattimer recollected only a part of the words, and completed the ballad from another version, giving the three verses used in the harmonised arrangement. Recently, however, Miss Lattimer has come into communication with the singer, and received from her the following interesting set of words:—

KING HENRY, MY SON.

"Where have you been wandering, King Henry, my son?
Where have you been wandering, my pretty one?"
"I've been away hunting, mother, make my bed soon.
For I'm sick to the heart, and fain would lie down."

"What had you to your dinner, King Henry, my son?
What had you to your dinner, my pretty one t"
"A dish of small fishes, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain would lie down."

"What colour was the fishes, King Henry, my son?
What colour was the fishes, my pretty one?"
"They were black bellies and speckled bellies, mother, make my bed soon,
"For I'm sick to the heart, and fain would lie down."

"I'm afraid you are poisoned, King Henry, my son,
I'm afraid you are poisoned, my pretty one!"
"Yes, mother, I'm poisoned, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to the heart, and fain would lie down."

"What will you leave your mother, King Henry, my son?
What will you leave your mother, my pretty one?"
"I will leave her my all— and make my bed soon,
For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain would lie down."

"What will you leave your brother, King Henry, my son?
What will you leave your brother, my pretty one?"
"There's the best pair of horses, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to the heart, and fain would lie down."

"What will you leave your sweetheart, King Henry, my son?
What will you leave your sweetheart, my pretty one?"
"I will leave her my braces to hang her upon a tree;
For the poisoning of my greyhounds, and the poisoning of me."

* * * *

I've only included the notes about this ballad and Miss Lattimer. The text is a composite but the information given is confusing since the melodies are the same-- I suppose it's just some mix-up, or the melodies are sung the same by two different singer (since they are from the same area and same general time they could be from the same source). Broadwood makes no mention of Miss Latimer's relationship with Mr [Robert] Lattimer-- and the fact that the same melody was given twice was not pointed out. It seems that Sydney Nicholson, the organist, learned the ballad from Robert Lattimer and communicated to Miss Lattimer who wrote it down.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 08:00 PM

Hi,

This is Kathleen Behan's "My Bonny Brown Boy" Tocher: Tales, Songs, Tradition - Issue 43 - Page 16, 1991. I'm not sure why this isn't at School of Scottish Studies unless it's cause it is Irish. This is as much as I could get from Google Books. Is there more? A recording? Apparently Kathleen was born on September 18 1889, in 49 Capel Street, Dublin and was the mother of Brendan Francis Behan, 1923 - 1964.

"My Bonny Brown Boy." Recorded by Hamish Henderson from Mrs. Kathleen Behan, Crumlin, Dublin, dated 1956. A variation of the last stanza was sung during the interview with Henderson (see footnote).

"Where have you been to, my bonny brown boy?
Where have you been to, my heart's love and joy?"
"To the fair o Ballytober, Mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm tired to the heart and I long to lie down."

"What's for your dinner, my bonny brown boy?
What's for your dinner, my heart's love and joy?
"Cabbage and thump, Mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm tired to the heart and I long to lie down."

"What's for your father, my bonny brown boy?
What's for your father, my heart's love and joy?
A coach and six horses, Mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm tired to the heart and I long to lie down."

"What's for your children, my bonny brown boy?
What's for your children, my heart's love and joy?
Good school and education, Mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm tired to the heart and I long to lie down."

"Now, where will we bury you, my bonny brown boy[1]?
Where will we bury you, my heart's love and joy
Put a stone at me head, and a stone at me feet,
And place me in Glasnevin for to take a sleep.
_____________

1. "And where will we bury you, my bonny brown boy?
Where will we bury you, my heart's love and joy
Put a stone at me head, and a stone at me feet,
And place me on the hill o Slane for to take a sleep.

HH: Tell me, Kathleen, when did you first hear that song?
KB: Oh, whin I was a child.
HH: And who sang it?
KB: My own mother.
HH: Did she? Where was she from?
KB: County Meath.
HH: And what was the place that she heard it first sung at?
KB: Slane, in County Meath, Slane.
HH: Did your mother ever sing a different ending?
KB: Oh yes [sings variation of last stanza- see above]
* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 10:40 PM

Hi,

Mr Lattimer, Broadwood's informant in 1907 was Robert Lattimer, a well-known amateur singer. From Folk Music Journal - Volume 4, Issue 4 - Page 345, 1983: Other versions of [Robert] Anderson's songs he [Sidney Nicholson] had picked up from the singing of Robert Lattimer, the best known amateur singer in Carlisle during the middle of the late nineteenth century. Lattimer was the son of a builder and contractor and ended his days, like Brown, as director of a firm. He was old enough to have seen Anderson wandering the streets of Carlisle when he was a young boy. Of the five songs in the Broadwood collection communicated by this group, three came from Nicholson alone, one came via Nicholson from the singing of Brown, and one was sent in by the Lattimer family.

This is was added in the JFSS 1907: Sydney [Sidney] Nicholson has noted a number of tunes, is a great authority on Cumbrian dialect. He learnt most of his songs in boyhood from Mr. Robert Lattimer, of Carlisle, now dead. His songs here given are regularly sung by old Cumbrians. They used especially to be heard at the "Kern-suppers" which are now dying out. These took place after the last load of corn had been carried, lasted from 7 p.m. till 5 a.m., and were accompanied by much singing and dancing. The old words to the old tunes fell into disuse after Robert Anderson, the favourite Cumbrian poet, supplied the airs with verses of his own. Anderson wrote for Vauxhall Gardens, supplying James Hook, the composer, with words, in 1794 and later. Some of his songs were sung by Master Phelps in the Gardens. He issued a small volume of "Cumberland Ballads" in 1801, and a second edition a few years later.

* * * *

Since Robert Anderson (1770–1833), Cumbrian author, died in 1833, Lattimer must have been born around 1825. Apparently Miss M.B. Lattimer was Robert's sister [ref. Wakefield's Folk Song Competition]. Broadwood (see: https://www.vwml.org/search?q=RN10%20%20&is=1#) suggests it's "from her father's singing, he learnt it as a boy in Cumbria." It's also possible Robert's Father is also Robert-- a Robert Lattimer died in Cumbria in 1844 (who could be his father). The date of the ballad if Lattimer learned it at age 15 would be 1840. According to "folk song in cumbria" by S Allan, ?2017, Lattimer was born in 1825 the exact date I had guessed: "Robert Lattimer (1825-1901) and other members of his family seem to be key 'tradition bearers', in carrying forward into the twentieth century folk songs current in Carlisle in the nineteenth century."

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Kevin Werner
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 06:24 AM

Richie,
here's a sound recording of Kathleen Behan's version, as recorded by Hamish Henderson:
https://soundcloud.com/user-860765554/kathleen-behan-my-bonny-brown-boy

Here are the booklet notes, but they tell us nothing about the singer, unfortunately.

From "Hamish Henderson Collects Vol. 1" (2005):

15. MY BONNY BROWN BOY SF1956/1(A1). Roud 10. Child 12
Greig/Duncan 209. Kathleen Behan, Crumlin, Dublin. 1956.

Professor Child called this Lord Randal and gives over a dozen examples. Attempts have been made in the past to try to tie this ballad to an actual event, usually to the family of Ranulf, sixth Earl of Chester (d. 1232), but as it is known in one form or other all over Europe (Italian sets are known from c. 1630) this has never been successful. Hamish Henderson believed that this ballad, 'like many Child ballads found in Ireland', was originally from Scotland.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Kevin Werner
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 07:07 AM

Sorry for posting twice, but there's another sound recording of a Gaelic Lord Randal, "Martin 'Junior' Crehan - Cá raibh tú ar Maidin" accessible here:
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/music/live/annagh_CM-WC5.htm

It starts at 07:50 in the recording.

I'm also fairly certain that the New York singer Sara Cleveland's version has been brought over from Ireland.
Her version is titled "My Bonny Bon Boy".

Bon = Brown? I'm not sure. Anyways, it's a wonderful version from a great singer.

There's also a couple of irish versions that were recorded from Travellers by the Song Collector's Collective:
https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/lord-randal-kathleen-ward-kilconnell
Kathleen Ward's version is hoplessly confused with "Son Come Tell Unto Me", Child 13, not surprising given the similar structure of the two songs.

https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/lord-randall-kathleen-ward
https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/what-had-you-for-your-dinner
https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/maggie-mongins-2016-05-04
https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/kathleen-explaining-the-lord
https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/edward-mcdonagh-2016-05-04-1
https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/willie-heaney-2016-07-18-3
https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/lord-randall-edward-mcdonagh
https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/bury-me-in-kilkenny-mother
https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/unknown-singer-mammy-make-my

Oh, and Frank Quinn, the singer who gave Hamish Henderson that fine version of "The False Knight Upon The Road", also had a great version of Lord Randal:
https://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Peter-Kennedy-Collection/025M-C

The song starts at 06:00 in the recording.
It is the only Irish text I've heard so far where the dying man is actually named Randal.
All the other Irish versions leave him unnamed.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Kevin Werner
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 07:11 AM

One more I forgot, "Buried in Kilkenny", sung by Mary Delaney can be heard here:
https://www.itma.ie/digital-library/sound/buried-in-kilkenny-delaney


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 09:42 AM

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for the posts-- I fixed the Katherine Behan version. There was one stanza missing and a variant on the last line.

Cleveland's "My Bonny Bon Boy" sounds like "bonny, bonny boy" although it's hard to hear the second "bonny."

"Martin 'Junior' Crehan's version has no text but it's a nice fiddle rendition with a spoken description of the song.

I'll ck out all the other versions today. I just went through Roud's list of 926 versions (some of them are mistakes, multiples or reprints). Roud has done a great job with his index!!! I was surprised at the number of versions collected by Sharp (over 25) in the UK. The variants are hard to sort out, but like anything you do them one at a time :)

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 01:34 PM

Hi,

Here's a quick unfinished transcript of the composite: Lord Randal - Kathleen Ward Kilconnell of County Galway, Ireland May 2016
Collected by Sam Lee: songcollectors.org/tradition-beare…/kathleen-ward/1

Only the second stanza is completely Lord Randal, the other are mixed with the Edward form but still use lines from Lord Randal (i.e. "fishin' and fowlin).

"O Son, Dear Son"sung by Kathleen Ward of Kilconnell, known for 60 years (c.1956).

1. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me,
O where were you, this long summer's evening?"
"I went fishin' an' fowlin'; sister, show mercy,
O mamaw, O pardon me."

2. What had you for breakfast, my dear and my darling (die)
What had you for breakfast, my darling fine one
O fresh eels and slow poison, mama, make my bed soon,
Fresh eels and slow poison, and I meant to lie down."

3. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me,
What will you do with yer two little children?
I'll give them to my daddy and the other to my mammy,
O, to keep them company, O mamaw pardon me.

4."O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me,
What will ye do with your house and land?"
"I will leave it there to the birds in the air,
And [tell them] there to mourn for me,
So mamaw pardon me.

5. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me,
What will you do with yer dear beloved wife?
I'll give her the bag and the bottle,
O, to hunt the counterie, O, to hunt the counterie
Then mamaw pardon me.

6. O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me
What will you do with your two gray hounds?
I will take their straps all off of their neck,
And for me they'll race no more

7. O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me
What will you do with your two race horses?
I will take their bridal off their head
And for me they'll race no more,
Then mamaw pardon me.

* * * *

Thanks Mick for the corrections. I only listened to it a couple times.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 02:33 PM

Richie - I haven't time to check this further, as I'm just on my way out, but here's my first reading of it.

Mick



1. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me,
O where were you, this lang summer's evening?"
"I went fishin an' fowlin'; sister, show mercy,
O MAMAW O PARDON ME"

2. What had you for breakfast, my dear and my darling (die)
O What had you for breakfast, my darling fine BOY
O FRESH EELS AND slow poison, mama, make my bed soon,
FRESH EELS AND slow poison, and I MEANT to lie down."

3. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me,
O What will you do with yer two little children?
I will give ONE to my daddy and the other to my mammy,
O TO KEEP THEM COMPANY, O mamaw pardon me.

4."O son, dear son, O come tell unto me,
What will ye do with your house and land?"
"I will leave it THERE to the BIRDS IN THE AIR
And [tell them] there to mourn for me,
SO MAMAW? pardon me.

5. "O son, dear son, O come tell IT UNTO ME
What will you do with yer DEAR DEVIL WIFE
I'LL GIVE TO HER THE BAG AND THE BOTTLE
O TO HUNT THE COUNTERIE, O TO HUNT THE COUNTERIE
THEN MAMAW PARDON ME

6. O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me
What will you do with your two gray hounds?
I will take their straps ALL off their neck,
AND FOR ME THEY'LL RACE NO MORE

7. O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me
What will you did do with your two RACE horses?
I will take THE bridal off their HEAD
And FOR ME THEY'LL RACE NO MORE
O MAMAW O PARDON ME


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 02:47 PM

> Richard, I doubt it was a joke. There are some earlier Welsh versions that are referenced before the 1950s.

I meant that perhaps it was meant as a joke when that version was first put together, whenever that was, some time after the invention of sewing machines.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 05:02 PM

Hi,

TY Mick-- I've made the corrections to my version (above). If anyone else would like to add suggestions for further corrections, please do.

Richard, no worries. I found it rather odd and amusing that an archaic Welsh version would have a sewing machine as a gift.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jul 18 - 11:24 PM

Hi,

This excellent version by Frank Quinn, best known for his rendition of False Knight on the Road, uses the modern form found in Ireland and the UK in the 1900s usually with the title, "Henry My Son."

Lord Randal- sung by Frank Quinn of Coalisland, Tyrone in 1958. Dub by Kennedy from Sean O'Boyle's tapes. To listen: https://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Peter-Kennedy-Collection/025M-C

1 "Where have you been all day, Lord Randal, my son?
Where have you been all day, my fair one?"
"To see my love mother, to see my love mother
So smooth my bed, I am sick at heart,
That I might lie down."

2. "You look tired and pale, Lord Randal, my son?
You look tired and pale, O my fair one?"
"I'm poisoned mother, I'm dying mother
So smooth my bed, for I'm sick at heart,
That I might lie down."

3. "Who give you to eat, Lord Randal, my son?
Who give you to eat, O my fair one?"
"A false hearted lover, a black hearted lover
So smooth my bed, for I'm sick at heart,
That I might lie down."

4. "What shall I send your love when you are gone?
What shall I send your love, my fair one?"
"A rope from hell, mother, a rope to hang her,
So smooth my bed, for I'm sick at heart,
That I might lie down."

5 "What do you leave me, Lord Randal, my son?
What do you leave me, O my fair one?"
"My horses and carriage, my wealth and land, mother
So smooth my bed, for I'm sick at heart,
That I might lie down."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 12:11 AM

Hi,

This Irish traveller version uses the standard "poisoned" stanza followed by the "will" then one burial stanza (see: Behan's version above).

Online profile: Thomas McCarthy was born in the town of Birr, County Offaly, in the Irish midlands into a well respected Irish Traveller family. His grandfather was known as a “seanachie” which is an Irish term for someone with a profound orally derived knowledge of the history and families of Ireland.

Thomas learnt his crafts of singing and storytelling from his mother, aunts and uncles.

His extended family has a long history of musicianship and includes the well-recognised and respected Doran Brothers and their grandfather “Big John Cash”, who all played the Irish uillean (elbow) pipes.


Quotes: "When I was a child my grandfather Johnny McCarthy would take us off in the wagon in the summertime to County Clare and Galway. We would go visit people who played music and sang the old songs. This tradition is called cur darekin and my grandfather was always welcome and loved anywhere he went, for people who knew him as a kind, decent and caring man."

"I learnt most of my songs through my mother Mary McCarthy who was a fine singer
."

What Had You For Your Dinner?- sung by Thomas McCarthy

1. "What had you for your dinner now my darling boy?
What had you for your dinner my comfort and my joy?"
I had eels and cold poison mother fix my bed soon
I have a pain in my heart, and I am tae lie down.

2. "What will you leave your father now my darling boy?
What will you leave your father, my comfort and my joy?"
"I leave a coach and four horses, mother fix my bed soon,
I have a pain in my heart, Wad I like to lie down."

3. What will you leave your father now my darling boy?
What will you leave your father my comfort and my joy?
I leave the keys of gold treasure, mother fix my bed soon
I have a pain in my heart, Wad I like to lie down.

4. What will you leave your young wife, my darling boy?
What will you leave your young wife, my comfort and my joy?
I leave a long rope, for to hang her, mother fix my bed soon,
I have a pain in my heart, and I'd like to lie down.

5. Where will be you be buried my own darling boy
Where will be you be buried my comfort and my joy
In the graveyard of Kilkenny I will take a long sleep,
With a stone to my head and the scratch on my feet.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 07:58 AM

I've had a chance to listen to Mary Ward Kilconnell's version a bit more and I've got a few more changes, shown in <..> below. Also some possible alternatives, shown in {..} below. (Perhaps my worst? mishearing was devil wife for beloved wife!)

Mick


LORD RANDAL

1. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me,
O where were you, this lang summer's evening?"
"I went fishin an' fowlin'; <THIS LONG SUMMER'S EVENING>
O MAMAW O PARDON ME" {O MAMAW=O MAM O?}

2. What had you for breakfast, my dear and my <JOY>
O What had you for breakfast, my darling fine BOY
O FRESH EELS AND slow poison, mama, make my bed soon,
FRESH EELS AND slow poison, and I MEANT to lie down."

3. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me,
O What will you do with yer two little children?
<I'LL> give ONE to my daddy and the other to my mammy,
O TO KEEP THEM COMPANY, O mamaw pardon me.

4."O son, dear son, O come tell <IT> unto me,
What will ye do with your house and land?"
"I will leave it THERE to the BIRDS IN THE AIR {IN=ON?}
And there to mourn for me,
SO MAMAW? pardon me.

5. "O son, dear son, O come tell IT UNTO ME
What will you do with yer DEAR <BELOVED> WIFE
I'LL GIVE TO HER THE BAG AND THE BOTTLE
O TO HUNT THE COUNTERIE, O TO HUNT THE COUNTERIE {HUNT=HAUNT?}
THEN MAMAW PARDON ME

6. O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me
What will you do with your two gray hounds?
I will take their straps ALL off their neck,
AND FOR ME THEY'LL RACE NO MORE

7. O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me
What will you <DO> do with your two RACE horses?
I will take THE bridal off their HEAD
And FOR ME THEY'LL RACE NO MORE
<THEN> MAMAW O PARDON ME


Source: Kathleen Ward Kilconnell


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 09:47 AM

Hi,

TY Mick. Here are two more transcripts from the links Kevin posted above. The first fragment is missing the first part of the 3rd line second stanza and the second transcript is complete:

My Own Pretty Boy- sung by Irish traveller Maggie Mongins from County Galway, c. 2016. Learned from her mother.

"Oh, where were you all day, ah, my own honey boy?
And where were you all day, ah, my pride and joy?
I was fishing, I was hunting, mother dress my bed soon,
I've a pain in my heart, and I want to lie down."

"What had for dinner, ah, my own honey boy?
What had you for dinner,ah, my pride and joy?
I'd a-me poison chicken, mother, dress my bed soon,
I am sick to my heart, and I want to lie down."

* * * *

My Own Bonnie Boy- sung by Irish traveller Edward McDonagh of Tuam in 2016.

Where were you all day you are my own bonnie boy?
Where were you all day you are my comfort and joy?
I was a-fishin' and fowlin', mother dress my bed soon,
I've a pain in my heart and I want to lie down.

O what had you for dinner you're my own bonnie boy?
What had you for dinner, you are my comfort and joy?
I did eat poison chicken mother dress my bed soon,
I've a pain in my heart and I want to lie down.

What will you do to your race horses, you're my own bonnie boy?
What will you do to your race horses, you are my comfort and joy,
I'll give one them to my dada and another to my mam,
I've a pain in my heart and Iwant to lie down

What will you do to your two children, you're my own bonnie boy?
What will you do to your two children, you are my comfort and joy
I'll give one o them to my dada and another to my mam,
I've a pain in my heart and I want to lie down.

What had you for yer dinner you're my own bonnie boy?
What had you for yer dinner you are my comfort and joy?
I did eat poison chicken O mother dress my bed soon,
I've a pain in my heart and I want to lie down.

What will you give your nice wife, you're my own bonnie boy?
What will you give your nice wife, you are my comfort and joy?
I'll give her a lang rope for to hang mother dress my bed soon,
I've a pain in my heart and I want to lie down,
I have a pain in my heart and I want to lie down.

* * * *

Corrections by Mick Pierce added 8-1-18.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 10:32 AM

Maggie Mongins corrections:

I'm not sure about a mere pie, but that's what it sounds like. Perhaps someone has some idea what it might be. (meat pie?)

Mick


"Oh, where were you all day, <AH> my own <HONEY> boy?
<AH> where were you all day, <AH> my pride and joy?
I was fishing, I was <HUNTIN'>, mother dress my bed soon,
I've a pain in my heart, and I want to lie down."

"<OH> What <HAD> for dinner, my own <WEE> boy?
What <HAD> you for dinner, <OH> my pride and joy?
<I'D A MERE PIE, SOME CHICKEN>, mother, dress my bed soon,
<I AM SICK TO> my heart, and I want to lie down."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 10:49 AM

Having just listened to the Edward McDonagh version, I think in Maggie Mongan's the phrase might be I'd a-me pie, some chicken.... Also in v2 that Wee should be Honey as in the first verse.

In Edward McDonagh's there are only a few minor corrections, shown below.

Mick


My Own Bonnie Boy- sung by Irish traveller Edward McDonagh

Where were you all day you are my own bonnie boy?
Where were you all day you are my comfort and joy?
I was a- fishin' and fowlin', mother dress my bed soon,
I've a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down.

O what had you for <> dinner you're my own bonnie boy?
What had you for <> dinner, you are my comfort and joy?
I did eat poison chicken mother dress my bed soon,
I've a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down.

What will you do to <YOUR> race horses, you're my own bonnie boy?
What will you do to <YOUR> race horses, you are my comfort and joy,
I'll give one <> them to my dada and another to my mam
I've a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down


What will you do to <YOUR> two children, you're my own bonnie boy?
What will you do to <YOUR> children, you are my comfort and joy
I'll give one o them to my dada and another to my mam
I've a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down.

<> what had you for yer dinner you're my own bonnie boy?
What had you for yer dinner you are my comfort and joy?
I did eat poison chicken O mother dress my bed soon,
I've a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down.

What will you give your nice wife, you're my own bonnie boy?
What will you give your nice wife, you are my comfort and joy?
I'll give her a lang rope for to hang <HER, OH> mother dress my bed soon,
I've a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down
I <HAVE> a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 10:52 AM

'PIE SOME' could be 'POISON'.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 31 Jul 18 - 12:00 PM

Sorry that's what I meant to say Steve (after listening to the Edward McDonagh version): I'd a-me poison chicken (or even I'd (m) eat poison chicken)

I think listening to these has inspired me to do a version tonight (at Kiveton); haven't time to learn one of these but I did used to sing Jeannie Robertson's Lord Donald My Son and I think I can remember that!.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 01 Aug 18 - 10:45 AM

Hi,

TY Mick and Steve, "pie some" is probably "poison" and I'll make the corrections to my version above,

I have this to report on the two Broadwood versions from Cumbria titled "King Henry My Son." According to "Folk song in Cumbria" by S. Allan, 2017, "Robert Lattimer (1825-1901) and other members of his family seem to be key 'tradition bearers', in carrying forward into the twentieth century folk songs current in Carlisle in the nineteenth century." This is the exact birth date I had guessed and knew he had died before his version was published in 1907. Miss M. B. Lattimer, the transcriber of the 1907 JFSS version is Robert's younger sister (no date on her birth yet). Robert's version was learned by organist Sydney Nicholson and communicated to Miss Lattimer. I've dated this version c. 1840 since it was learned by Robert when he was a boy. The 1908 version is also given by Miss Lattimer but was taken from another source before 1868. Later, Miss Lattimer received addition text from the informant, Margaret Scott. However, the melody is the same for both. Since they are local versions, both informants could have sung the same melody but it's more likely that Lattimer's melody was used twice. Broadwood did not provide this source information.

Motherwell gives a Scottish version about 1827 titled "King Henry My Son." which is Child C,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 01 Aug 18 - 01:59 PM

Hi,

There are four versions of the Welsh Lord Randal, "O Fy Mab Anwyl," in Journal of the Welsh Folk-Song Society: Volume 2, pages 48-52 by the Welsh Folk-Song Society- 1914. The first is the version in Celtic Review (posted in this thread above) but the other versions I can't get and have only been able to get the notes to one version: "Sung by Miss Davies, Aberystwyth, January, 1911. Her mother used to sing it when a child about 80 years ago, — she had in all probability learnt it from her grandmother." — Miss Jennie Williams, Aberystwyth."

Here's a link to the article: https://books.google.com/books?id=IFsvAQAAIAAJ&q=%22O+Fy+Mab+Anwyl,%22&dq=%22O+Fy+Mab+Anwyl,%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjkybeWtszc Since it's "snippet view" you can find parts of the article and texts if you know what to search for. You can pull entire versions-- as I've pulled the entire first version from there but it's a version we already have in this thread.

Can anyone find a "read" version, either on Google or internet archive?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 01 Aug 18 - 02:58 PM

Richie - I can't find a version online, but google says their copies come from U.Indiana and U.California, maybe you can get a copy from one of them.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 01 Aug 18 - 03:07 PM

Btw, have you seen this article Ballad implosions and Welsh folk stanzas (2001)
by Prof. E. Wyn James
.

The book by Constantine Ballads In Wales (1999) isn't available on amazon or abebooks in uk, but there is a copy for $11 on amazonus: Ballads in Wales

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 02 Aug 18 - 02:41 PM

Hi,

Rhiannon at the Welsh Folk-Song Society was kind enough to send copies of the Welsh versions in Journal of the Welsh Folk-Song Society: Volume 2, pages 48-52 by the Welsh Folk-Song Society- 1914. The first version was in the Celtic Review. Here's the second (with music):

No. 2. O fy Mab Anwyl

Lle buost ti neithiwr- from collection of folk songs at Carmathen, Eisteddfod, 1911

1. Lle buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam?
Lle buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam?
Pysgota fuais neithiwr,
O ta'nwch fy ngwely,
'Rwy'n a'm calon ar fyned i'r bedd.

* * * *

1. Where wert thou last night, dear son of thy mother?
Where wert thou last night, dear son of thy mother?
I was fishing last night,
Spread my bed,
I am sick and my heart is going to the grave.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 02 Aug 18 - 03:37 PM

Hi,

Here are the other two versions from: Journal of the Welsh Folk-Song Society: Volume 2, pages 48-52 by the Welsh Folk-Song Society- 1914, (with music), the first dates back to 1831.

No. 3. O fy Mab Anwyl

Ple buost ti neithiwr? (Where were you last night?). "Sung by Miss Davies, Aberystwyth, January, 1911. Her mother used to sing it when a child about 80 years ago, — she had in all probability learnt it from her grandmother." — Miss Jennie Williams, Aberystwyth."

"Ple buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam?
Ple buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam?"
"Pysgota fuais neithiwr,
Cy weiriwch fy ngwely,
'Rwy'n glaf am calon ar fyned i'r bedd."

"Where were you last night, dear son of thy mother?
Where were you last night, dear son of thy mother?"
"I went fishing last night,
Please make my bed,
I am sick and my heart is going to the grave."

* * * *

No. 4. O fy Mab Anwyl

Ple buost ti neithiwr- Recorded by Miss Rosaleen Graves in September, 1911 from the singing of Hugh J. Hughes of Harlech who learned it from his uncle, Robert Jones of Rhosdda.

1. "Lle buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam?
Lle buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam?"
"Yn hela sgwarnogod, mam,
A Ch'weiriwch fy ngwely,
'Rwy'n glaf am calon ar fyned i'r bedd."

2. "Ple buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam?
Ple buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam?"
"Pysgota mab anwyl, mam,
A Ch'weiriwch fy ngwely,
'Rwy'n glaf am calon ar fyned i'r bedd."

3. "Beth gefaist ti i'w fwyta" &c,
"Ces neidr, mam," &c

4. Beth yw dy glefyd, &c.
Bradwriaeth, mam, &c

5. Beth roi di i dy fam, &c
Rhof gortyn, mam &c

* * * *

1. "Where were you yesterday, dear son of thy mother?
Where were you yesterday, dear son of thy mother?"
"Hunting hares, mother,
Please make my bed,
I am sick and my heart is going to the grave."

2. "Where were you last night, dear son of thy mother?
Where were you last night, dear son of thy mother?"
"I went fishing, mother,
Please make my bed,
I am sick and my heart is going to the grave."

3. "What did you have for food?" &c (sim.)
"I had a snake, mother," &c

4. What is your fever" &c
Treachery, mother &c

5. What will you give your mother? &c
I will give a rope &c

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 04 Aug 18 - 01:15 PM

Hi

Trying to finish British and other versions of Child 12. Apparently there's a version by John Clare "John Randall my son" that he learned from his father. Also need the Child 12 version from Sam Henry's Songs of the People' (G. Huntington, 1990) p. 415. One more: Colm McDonald, Folk Songs of Britain, Vol 4. The Child Ballads, I, Caedmon TC 1145, LP (1961)

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 18 - 01:42 PM

Can do you all of these
The Clare and Sam Henry ones come with tunes so if you want them you'll have to PM me an e-mail address
The Colm McDonagh Irish language version is a recording which I can send as an attachment
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Aug 18 - 04:26 PM

I've got the Sam Henry & John Clare covered, Jim. Probably got the Caedmon in the notes booklet as well.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Aug 18 - 04:57 PM

All 3 despatched.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Aug 18 - 04:58 PM

Jim
You appear to have easy access to a scanner. Happy to share the load if you are.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 18 - 07:44 PM

Have e-mailed you Steve
Jim


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 12:15 AM

TY Steve and Jim,

I post texts here later

Jim,

I couldn't find the Andy Cash or Pops Johnny Connors version online- are they online?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 04:10 AM

"I couldn't find the Andy Cash or Pops Johnny Connors version online- are they online?"
No, but if I have an e-mail address I can post them to you
Have you done Edward yet ?
We have an interesting take on the ballad from 'Pop's' Johnny - he calls it 'The Ballad of Cain and Abel' and links it to the origins of the Travellers
Jim


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 07:50 AM

Hi Jim,

My email is Richiematt7@gmail.com -- yes, Edward is next, probably on another thread. Here's the John Clare text, as originally given with a couple changes in brackets:

* * * *

Described as "Old Ballad of John Randall from my Father & Mothers memory with a few additions" and "my Fathers version was Lord Randall and my mothers John there was little other difference." The additions by Clare were clearly stanzas 5, 7 and 11. He made two nearly identical two copies, one with his mother's "John Randall" and the other with his father's "Lord Randle." The ballad is in three line form (1st line is not repeated):

Lord Randle (Old Ballad of John Randall)- written by John Clare (b. 1793) of Northampton from his parents versions c.1818, dating back through them to the late 1700s.

1. Where have you been to Lord Randle my son
A hawking & hunting mother make my bed soon
Im sick at my heart & fain would ly[e] down.

2. Where's you hawk and hound then Lord Randle my son
Theyre dinnerd & dead mother make my bed soon
Im sick at my heart & fain would lye down.

3. What had you for dinner Lord Randle my son
Eels in fresh broth mother make my bed soon,
Im sick at my heart & fain would ly[e] down.

4 What color were they Lord Randall my son
Their skins tehy were spotted mother make my bed soon,
Im sick at my heart & fain would lye down.

5. They swam in no river- Thye basked in the sun
& crawled in the hedge bottoms- O make my bed soon,
Im sick at my heart mother let me lie down.

6. O then your poisoned Lord Randall my son
It was my own sweetheart, mother make my bed soon,
Im sick at my heart & fain would lye down.

7. My hound eat the skins & fell ere he[a]d done [down]
At her door like a stranger, O make my bed soon,
Im sick at my heart & fain to lye down.

8. What will you leave [mother][1] Lord Randle my son
My lands and my livings mother make my bed soon,
Im sick at my heart & fain would lye down.

9. What leave you your brother Lord Randle my son
My coach and my horses mother make my bed soon,
Im sick at my heart & I fain would lye down.

10. What leave you your sweetheart Lord Randle my son
The curse of god mother O make my bed soon,
For Im sick at my heart & I fain would lye down.

11. My hawk on her hand looked for friends & and found none
Taking poison for kindness- O hear my will soon
For Im sick sad & weary & fain would lye down.

1. has "mother" in his mother's copy.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 11:05 AM

Hi,

Have put most of Child 12 versions on my site. I only have one version of Canadian "Le Garçon Empoisonné" from Arcadia and it's from 'Le Testament du Garçon Empoisonné ': A French 'Lord Randal' in Acadie by Robert Paquin; Folklore, Vol. 91, No. 2 (1980), pp. 157-172.

Does anyone have a link or can post text of another version? Still no versions from France?

Collection Bouthillier-Labrie No. 1460. Sung by M. Onsime Brideau and his wife Alvina (nee Saint-Pierre), respectively 63 and 53 years old; Saint-Ime, county Gloucester, N.B., summer 1976.

'LE TESTAMENT DU GARCON EMPOISONNE'

1. Oiiss' t'as 'te hier au soir, Honoré mon enfant?
Oiiss' t'as 'te hier au soir, dit'-moi mon cher enfant?
J'ai 'te courter les fill', maman rangez mon lit
Car j'ai grand mal au coeur, je veux aller me coucher

2 Quoiss' t'as mangé hier au soir, Honore mon enfant?
Quoiss' t'as mangé hier au soir, dit'-moi mon cher enfant?
Un p'tit poisson saumure, que ma blond' m'a donne
Car j'ai grand mal au coeur, je crois je m'en vas mourir

3 Quoiss' tu donn'ras ? ta mrr', Honoré mon enfant?
Quoiss' tu donn'ras A ta mere', dit'-moi mon cher enfant?
Ma petit' vache a lait, maman rangez mon lit
Car j'ai grand mal au coeur, je veux aller me coucher

4 Quoiss' tu donn'ras? ton per', Honoré mon enfant?
Quoiss' tu donn'ras? ton per', dit'-moi mon cher enfant?
Ma grange et ma maison, maman rangez mon lit
Car j'ai grand mal au coeur, je crois je m'en vas mourir

5 Quoiss' tu donn'ras? ton frer', Honoré mon enfant?
Quoiss' tu donn'ras a ton frer', dit'-moi mon cher enfant?
Mon ch'val et ma charrett', maman rangez mon lit
Car j'ai grand mal au coeur, je veux aller me coucher

6 Quoiss' tu donn'ras? ta soeur, Honoré mon enfant?
Quoiss' tu donn'ras? ta soeur, dit'-moi mon cher enfant?
Ma petit' mont' en or, maman, rangez mon lit
Car j'ai grand mal au coeur, je veux aller me coucher

7 Quoiss' tu donn'ras a ta blond', Honoré mon enfant?
Quoiss' tu donn'ras Ata blond', dit'-moi mon cher enfant?
Un petit bout' de cib', pour la pend' d'un arb' vert
Ell' l'a bien marité, c'est ell' qui m'a empoisonné



'LORD RANDAL'

1 O what is the matter Henery my son?
O what is the matter my own dearest one?
I've been to my sweetheart mother make my bed soon
I feel sick at the heart and fain would lie down

2 What did she give you Henery my son?
O what did she give you my dearest one?
She gave me golden fishes mother make my bed soon
I feel sick at heart and fain would lie down

3 What will you will your mother Henery my son?
What will you will your mother my own dearest one?
I will you my money mother make my bed soon
I feel sick at the heart and I fain would lie down

4 What will you will your father Henery my son?
What will you will your father my own dearest one?
I will him my land and houses mother make my bed soon
I feel sick at heart and I fain would lie down

5 What will you will your sister Henery my son?
What will you will your sister my own dearest one?
I will her my sheep and cattle mother make my bed soon
I feel sick at heart and I fain would lie down.

6 What will you will your brother Henery my son?
What will you will your brother my own dearest one?
I'll will him my horse and saddle mother make my bed soon
I feel sick at the heart and I fain would lie down

7 What will you will your sweetheart Henery my son?
What will you will your sweetheart my own dearest one?
I'll will her a rope to hang herself on yonder green tree
It was poison she gave me and she has[1] [betrayed] you and me.

1. Betrayed? (Creighton's note).

* * * *
Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4
From: Richie
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 11:25 AM

Hi,

Here are the British, Italian, Swedish, German versions of Child 12 " Lord Randal" that I've just put on my site. I'm missing just a few. If there are any versions that you don't see on there please post the title and artist and I'll include.

    L'Avvelenato- Camillo "il Bianchino" (Verona) 1629 Broadside
    Lord Ronald, My Son- (Ayr) 1793 R. Burns, Child F
    Randall, My Son- Parsons (Suffolk) 1775 Child S
    Die Schlangenkochin- (Ger) 1802 Clemens Brentano's "Godwi"
    Lord Randal- anon (Selk) 1803 W. Scott; Child D
    Lairde Rowlande- Philodice (Perth) 1804; Child E
    Lord Randal- W. Laidlaw (Selk) c.1805; Child T   
    Lord Randal- Charles Mackie (Edin) 1808; Child A
    Billy, My Son- (Suf) 1814 Jamieson, Child G
    Den Lillas Testamente- (Sweden) 1816 Erik Geijer
    Lord Randle- John Clare (Northamp) c.1818
    Wee Croodin' Doo- Henry Broadwood (Sus) c.1820 JFSS
    Wee Croodlin Dow- Maxwell (Renf) c.1820 Child J
    Wee Toorin Dow- (Scot) c.1820 Pitcairn MS; Child R
    Lord Randal- anon (Scot) 1825 Cunningham
    Croodlin' Doo- (Scot) 1826 Chambers; Child K
    Lord Donald- Comie (Aber) 1827 Kinloch; Child B
    King Henry- Margaret Bain (Perth) c.1827 Child C
    Wee Cruidland Dou- N. Orr (Renf) c1827 Crawfurd
    Willie Doo- (N. Scot) 1828 Buchan; Child L
    Wee Croudlin Doo- (Edin) c.1828 J. Burton; Child N
    My Wee Crooding Doo- Archibald (Rox) 1830 Child U
    Jacky, My Son- Adams (Dev) c.1830; Child
    Ple buost ti neithiwr- Davies (Aberystwyth) 1831
    Lord Ronald My Son- Webster (Kells) c1833; Child P
    Own Pretty Boy- (Irish) 1836 Mary Boddington
    Den Lillas Testamente (Sweden) 1837 Arwidsson
    Die Schlangenkochin- (Hessen, N. Germany) 1838
    King Henry, My Son- Robert Lattimer (Cum) c.1840
    The Croodlin Doo- Tytler (Edin) c.1840 Child O
    Stiefmutter- anon (Germany) 1844 Johann L. Uhland
    Lord Randal- Robertson (N. Scot) 1845; Child Q
    Lairde Rowlande- (Scot) 1849 Halliwell, Child E
    My Dear Son- Davies (Wales) c.1856 G. Davies
    Schlangenköchin- anon (Wilsnack) 1856 Ludwig Erk
    King Henry, My Son- Margaret Scott (Cum) c.1860
    The Croodin Doo- Findlay (Fife) c.1865; Child
    L'Avvelenato- anon (Como) 1867 Giovanni B. Bolza
    My Own Pretty Boy- Healy (Kerry) 1868 Child H
    The Croodin Doo- Lockhart (Berw) 1870 Child M
    L'Amante Avvenato- (Lucchese) 1879 G. Giannini
    Lord Ronald- Cruickshank (Aber) 1881 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Willie Mathieson(Aber) 1890 Carpenter
    Rendal, My Son- Mrs. Hooper (Som) 1904 Sharp A
    Henery, My Son- Mrs. Perry (Som) 1904 Sharp B
    Henery, My Son- Pond (Som) 1904 Sharp C
    Rendal, My Son- Wyatt (Som) 1904 Sharp D
    Rendal, My Son- Brown (Som) 1904 Sharp E
    Henery my Son- Mrs. Bond (Camb) 1904 Sharp MS
    Rendel, my fair one- C. Hill (Som) 1904 Sharp MS
    Own Darling Boy- Miss Brown (Dor) 1905 Hammond
    Lord Ronald- B. Alexander (Aber) 1905 Greig G
    Song of the Eel- Old Rogers (Ros) 1905 Hyde
    My Darling Boy- Henry Welsh (Dor) 1906 Hammond
    Lord Rendal- Grace Coles (Som) 1906 Sharp MS
    L'Avvelenato- anon (Pisa) 1906, D'Ancona A
    Lord Ronald- Margaret Gillespie(Aber) 1906 Greig F
    Lord Donald- Bell Roberston (Aber) 1906 Grieg J
    Henery, my son- Mrs. Pike (Som) 1906 Sharp MS
    Three Drops of Poison- Kemp (Surry) 1907
    My Own Darling Boy- Gulliver (Hamp) 1907 Gardiner
    Rendal, My Son- Mrs. Hunt (Dor) 1907 Hammond
    Lord Ronald- anon (Aber) c.1907 Greig I
    Henry, My Son- James Brown (Aber) 1907 Greig A
    Lord Ronald- Alexander Robb (Aber) c.1907 Greig B
    Oh Mak' My Bed Easy- G Riddell (Aber) 1907 Greig C
    Lord Ronald- Mrs. A. Lyall (Aber) 1907 Greig D
    Lord Ronald- A. Grieg (Aber) 1907 Greig/Keith C
    The Little Wee Croodin' Doo- Cremer (Lanc) 1908
    Lord Ronald- MaCrae (Lon) 1908 Broadwood JFSS
    Henry My Son- Jane Gulliford (Som) 1908 Sharp MS
    O where are you going to? Miles (Sus) 1908 VW
    Henry, my Son- Alice Davy (Som) 1908 Sharp MS
    Lord Ronald- William Ross (Aber) c.1910 Greig/Carp
    Lle buost ti neithiwr- (Wales) 1911 WFSS, B
    Ple buost ti neithiwr- Hughes (Harlech) 1911 WFSS
    'Enery, my son- Kate Buchanan (Dur) 1913 Sharp MS
    Where Were You All Day- Cochlain (Cork) 1914
    Dove andashti ieri sera?- D. Persi (It) 1915 JFSS
    Lord Randal- MacSweeney (Ireland) c. 1918
    Henry, My Son- George Dunn (Staff) c.1920 REC
    Henry, My Son- C. Hole (Birm-Wales) c.1924
    Henry, My Son- P. Johnson (Warw) 1926 Collinson
    Young Rolland- Doug Home (Aber) c.1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Bell Duncan (Aber) c.1931 Carpenter
    Lord Rondal- Jean Ironside (aber) c.1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Jean Barclay (Aber) c.1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Elsie Miln (Aber) c.1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- girl singers (Aber) c.1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Mrs. J. Pirie (Banff) c1931 Carpenter
    Lord Randal- Mrs W Duncan (Aber) c1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Hector Campbell (Aber) 1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Jean Esselmont (Aber) 1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- William Duncan (Aber) 1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Will Morrison (Aber) c1931 Carpenter
    Young Donald- Mrs. Cameron (aber) 1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Isabella Reed (Banff) 1931 Carpenter
    Lord Randal- Peter Christie (Aber) 1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Mary Robertson (Aber) 1931 Carpenter
    Lord Ronald- Woman singer (Banff) 1931 Carpenter
    Lord Randle- Jeanie Durward (Aber) 1932 Carpenter
    Willy Doo- anon (Scotland) 1933 Alfred Moffat
    Lord Ronald- Will Fyffe (Soct) 1939 Movie
    Lord Ronald- John M'Neill (Col) 1939 Sam Henry
    Henry, My Son- Sellars (Bris) 1941 Pafford
    Lord Ronald- J. Laurenson (Shet) 1947 S.-Shaw
    Lord Donald- Jeannie Robertson (Aber) 1952 REC
    Lord Randall- Ewan MacColl/Miller (Scot) 1951 REC
    Ca raibh tu ar feadh an lae? McDonagh (Gal) 1951
    Lord Randal- Catriona Grant (Edin) 1953 Henderson
    Lord Ronald- Jimmy Stewart(Angus) 1953 Henderson
    Lord Randal- Martha Reid (Perth) 1955 Fleming REC
    Henry My Son- anon (Sus) c.1957 Mervyn Plunkett
    Lord Ronald- Jean Stewart (Aber) 1960 Goldstein
    Lord Ranald- Norman Kennedy(Aber) 1960 MacInnes
    Henry, my Son- Fred Jordan (Shrop) 1964 Yates
    The Song of the Eel- Heaney (Ireland) pre-1964
    Lord Donald- Arthur Lochead (Aber) 1965 Chapbook
    Rundle My Son- Mary Reid (Fife) 1967 Shepheard
    Rundle My Son- John Stewart (Fife) 1967 Shepheard
    Henry, My Son- Mrs Holden (Worc) 1968 Hamer
    Lord Donald- Archie Webster (Fife) 1969 Shepheard
    Henry, My Son- George Spicer (Sus) 1973 Yates
    Lord Ronald- John MacDonald (Mor) 1974 Engle
    Lord Ronald- John MacDonald (Glas) 1975 Fullarton
    Lord Ronald - Betsy Whyte (Angus) 1987 REC
    The Wild, Wild Berry- H. Civil (Shrop) 1989
    What had you for breakfast- Moran(Leit) 1954 Ennis
    O Fy Mab Anwyl- Eirlys/Eddis Thomas (Wales) c1954
    Lord Randal- Frank Quinn (Tyrone) 1958 O'Boyle
    O Son, Dear Son- Kathleen Ward (Galway) c.1956
    My Bonny Brown Boy- Kathleen Behan (Dub) 1956
    Mab Annwyl Dy Fam- Meredydd Evans (Wales) 1954
    My Own Darling Boy- Elizabeth Cronin (Cork) 1954
    Buried in Kilkenny- Mary Delaney (Tip) 1977 REC
    Buried in Kilkenny- Paddy Reilly (Dub) c.1977 REC
    Henry, My Son- Frank Harte (Dub) 1967 REC
    What Had You For Your Dinner? McCarthy (Off) 2008
    My Own Pretty Boy- Maggie Mongins (Gal) 2016 REC
    My Own Bonnie Boy- Ed McDonagh (Tuam) 2016

* * * *

Richie


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Mudcat time: 18 August 12:58 PM EDT

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