Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 08:14 AM

"A comparison of the two texts by Motherwell and Crawfurd gives some insight into Motherwell's editing."

Odd that he should change 'Claret Banks' to 'Cathar'. Anyone have an idea why?


Talking of Mary MacQueen, she was also a source for 'The Deil's Courtship', another Devil Ballad, similar to 'The Keys of Canterbury' in form, which Child chose to reject. I've just noticed in Lyle's book that this ballad is also in Kinloch's MSS. Anyone have a copy of that, by any chance?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 10:17 AM

It's not in Kinloch's Ballad Book but there is a similar version in Chambers' Popular Rhymes of Scotland. Here the actual song is a straight English version which even mentions Bristol, just Scottified a little. The Devil only actually appears in the spoken introduction and at the end cantefable style. This could be an interim version between the English simple dialogue song and the Scottish introduction of the supernatural element. I'm sure you can guess what my attitude to stuff supplied by Crawfurd is.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 10:47 AM

Brian, is 'Cather' a local/poetic name for the Calder which flows through Lochwinnoch? Localisation was one of the much-used methods of the Scottish editors. In this case I would say Crawfurd rather than Motherwell was the perpetrator.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 11:54 AM

"is 'Cather' a local/poetic name for the Calder which flows through Lochwinnoch?"

Interesting idea, Steve.

I probably can guess your attitude to Crawfurd's material, but if you've anything specific to add I be happy to hear it.

I have seen the Chambers 'Tempted Leddie' with the cantefable bookends. I thought that and Crawfurd were the only examples, hence my interest in any corroboration from Kinloch.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 04:23 PM

Fairly general stuff on Crawfurd. I think I remember reading either in Lyle or one of the books on Motherwell that Crawfurd was fond of Scottifying English pieces. I think what it amounts to is he would collect a song in Standard English locally and then, to make it more tempting to Motherwell, Scottify it. I'm always very careful with material that comes from being paid to go out collecting. The temptation must be there, and I include Carpenter in that but as I haven't been through the material yet in Carpenter I reserve judgment. I have seen one bit of jiggery pokery with Carpenter's stuff but that doesn't mean he was the perpetrator.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Richie
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 05:03 PM

Hi,

I compared 'Claret Banks' to 'Cathar' and neither seemed to be a well-known place.

Motherwell has "nor" instead of "than" which seems odd, also he has "pies" instead of "peas" which even if it's a slang doesn't seem to work. He also has "And Clootie's waur" where Crawford has "the Fiend is waur[worse]."

The "Humours of Love" broadside is missing the opening stanza. It has Cambrick which wasn't known much in England or Scotland before 1770. The earliest version with the herb refrains is Kinloch's (c. 1777)from Mary Barr and it has Holland sark.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 05:30 PM

Compounding the problems caused by the publishing editors editing is the fact that their contributors in various stages were also editing.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE LOVER'S TASKS
From: Richie
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 10:31 PM

Hi Steve,

Which brings us to the master of illusion- Sabine Baring Gould who sent the following version to Child which Sabine claimed was acted out almost like a mummers play by a girl and boy acting out the parts of the maid and her dead lover: From Sabine Baring-Gould Manuscript Collection (SBG/2/3/26).

This bizarre composite version was sent to Child by Baring Gould about 1890 and was faithfully printed by Child in Additions and Corrections with the following note:

Communicated by the Rev. S. Baring-Gould. "From the north of Cornwall, near Camelford. This used to be sung as a sort of game in farm-houses, between a young man who went outside the room and a girl who sat on the settle or a chair, and a sort of chorus of farm lads and lasses. Now quite discontinued." The dead lover represents the auld man.

What Baring-Gould failed to mention to Child that it was actually three versions and the first version (stanzas 1-4 and 15) was from a different song!!! Somehow Baring Gould wed these songs together to form a spectral version of the Elfin Knight as a play starring the maid riddling with her dead lover who was impersonating the "auld man," the Devil or a demon spirit (some details follow). I assume the girl's dead lover, then asked the girl to perform the impossible tasks such as making a cambric sark-- while he circled around her chair, chanting the tasks as a ghost from the other world!!!

Yes fact is stranger than fiction! David Atkinson reports that stanzas 6-14 were from Philip Symons of Jascobstowe, 1889 and another informant. These verses are Child 2, the other verses 1-4 and 15 are from Cornwall- which were acted out. Baring Gould writes that he didn't trust verses 1-4.

However, in his MS Baring Gould wrote out a connecting stanza (the missing 5th stanza) and one for 16. So that somehow the two dissimilar ballads could be wed. Since Baring-Gould never had versions with missing stanzas- he always filled them in himself- it added a degree of authenticity to the version (in his MS the missing stanzas are, of course, filled in).

Gilchrist in 1930 JFSS reports: Mr. Baring Gould (see his note on this song in Songs of the West) was informed that this ballad used to be sung in Cornwall as a dialogue between a young man and a girl. This dialogue may have begun abruptly, as in the Gammer Gurton's Garland (1810) version: "Can you make me a cambric shirt?" The young man left the room, to re-enter it in the character of the ghost of a dead lover, the girl remaining seated. Her spectral visitant sets her the impossible tasks rehearsed in the first part of the song, and but for her resourcefulness in countering his demands would, so it was understood, have claimed her and carried her off. So it would seem that where the meaning of the dialogue was still remembered the menacing and malevolent had their part in it.

Baring Gould wrote: The following was sent to me from Cornwall — but I somewhat mistrust its genuineness in its present form. It was sent along with the "Tasks." I heard the "Tasks" from both a man of Jacobstow, & from another at Mawgan — but neither knew this former portion. Nevertheless, it may have some basis, though perhaps touched up.

The Lover's Tasks- North of Cornwall: Camelford c. 1890. Sabine Baring-Gould Manuscript Collection (SBG/5/49)

1 A fair pretty maiden she sat on her bed,
The wind is blowing in forest and town
She sighed and she said, O my love he is dead!
And the wind it shaketh the acorns down

2 The maiden she sighed; 'I would,' said she,
'That again my lover might be with me!'

3 Before ever a word the maid she spake,
But she for fear did shiver and shake.

4 There stood at her side her lover dead;
'Take me by the hand, sweet love,' he said.

5. . . . . .
. . . . .

6 'Thou must buy me, my lady, a cambric shirt,
Whilst every grove rings with a merry antine
And stitch it without any needlework.
O and thus shalt thou be a true love of mine

7 'And thou must wash it in yonder well,
Whilst, etc.
Where never a drop of water in fell.
O and thus, etc.

8 'And thou must hang it upon a white thorn
That never has blossomed since Adam was born.

9 'And when that these tasks are finished and done
I'll take thee and marry thee under the sun.'

10 'Before ever I do these two and three,
I will set of tasks as many to thee.

11 'Thou must buy for me an acre of land
Between the salt ocean and the yellow sand.

12 'Thou must plough it o'er with a horse's horn,
And sow it over with one peppercorn.

13 'Thou must reap it too with a piece of leather,
And bind it up with a peacock's feather.

14 'And when that these tasks are finished and done,
O then will I marry thee under the sun.'

15 'Now thou hast answered me well,' he said,
The wind, etc.
'Or thou must have gone away with the dead.'
And the wind, etc.

16. . . . . .
. . . . .

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Richie
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 12:21 AM

Hi,

To be fair (although I did laugh at the concoction he gave to Child- see last post), I'll include Baring-Gould's notes from Songs of the West, No. 48 (1905 edition?) that deal with this subject, which I just found at Internet Archive (https://archive.org/details/SongsOfTheWest ). This play may be some form of mummers play since according to Baring Gould it's performed around Christmas. I do know that the ballad text (stanzas 1-4 and 15) and the reference to the play were sent to Baring-Gould and this single reference apparently supplied the info about the play.

48. The Lovers' Tasks. This very curious song belongs, as I was told, in Cornwall, to a sort of play that was wont to be performed in farmhouses at Christmas. One performer, a male, left the room, and entered again singing the first part. A girl, seated on a chair, responded with the second part. The story was this. She had been engaged to a young man who died. His ghost returned to claim her. She demurred to this, and he said that he would waive his claim if she could perform a series of tasks he set her. To this she responded that he must, in the first place, accomplish a set of impossible tasks she would set him. Thus was he baffled.

"In all stories of this kind," says Professor Child, "the person upon whom a task is imposed stands acquitted if another of no less difficulty is devised which must be performed first."

* * * *

I must admit, I'm baffled too. The rest of his notes go on tangents to include other, different songs- which I'd rather not go over at this time :)

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 12:16 PM

If you put this alongside other concocted material SBG sent to Child such as 295B and the introduction to 'Gypsy Laddie' it puts some of the other unique material under heavy question.

Subject: Lyr Add: WHITTINGHAM FAIR
From: Richie
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 03:38 PM

Hi,

In a tip from Kloss's article I got a copy of Thomas Hepple's original Whittingham Fair MS which was "arranged" and published by Bruce and Stokoe in 1882.

I noticed another somewhat similar song is "Newcastle Fair" c. 1810 attributed to James Stawpert, (b.1785? d.1814) which begins:

Ha' ye been at Newcastle Fair
And did you see owse o' great Sandy?
Lord bliss us ! what wark there was there;
And the folks were drinking of brandy.

What is interesting is comparing the Hepple's original MS with the Stokoe version which drastically rewrites Hepple's version and does not credit him. A copy of the MS is on my website: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/whittingham-fair--thomas-hepple-alnwick-c1855-.aspx

Below is a transcription of Hepple's original, The first set of tasks or questions (stanzas) is said to be three questions but is missing a stanza which was added by Stokoe. The last question in Hepple's MS is eliminated. The drastic changes may be indicative of editorial practices at that time. Both texts are presented below:

Whittingham Fair- From Hepple's MS, c. 1855

1 'Are you going to Whittingham fair?
Parsley, sage, grown merry in time
Remember me to one that lives there;
For once she was a true lover of mine.

2. 'Tell her to make me a cambric shirt,
Parsley, sage, &c
Without ever a seam or needlework,
Then she shall be a true lover of mine.

3. 'Tell her to wash't in yonder well,
Parsley, &c
Where is never sprung, where never rain fell,
Then she shall be &c

4. 'Three hard questions he's gotten to me,
Parsley, &c
But I'll match him with the other three
Before he shall be a true lover of mine.

5 'Tell him to buy me an acre of land
Parsley, &c
Between the sea and the sea-sand,
Then he shall be a true lover of mine.

6 Tell him to plow't with a hunting horn,
Parsley, &c
And sow it with the sickerly corn,
Then he shall &c

7 Tell him to shear'd with the hunting leather,
And bind[1] it up in a pea-cock feather.
Then he shall &c

8 Tell him to trash it on yonder wall,
Parsley, &c
And never let one corn of it fall,
Then he shall &c

9. After he has ended his work,
Parsley &c
Go tell him to come and to have his shirt,
Then he shall be a true lover of mine.
_______________

1. Hepple writes "bind" twice an obvious error.
____________________

Whittingham Fair- Stokoe's text published 1882, which was "popular in the north and west of the county of Northumberland; usually sung as a nursery-ballad."

1 'Are you going to Whittingham fair?
Parsley, sage, rosemary, and thyme
Remember me to one who lives there;
For once she was a true-love of mine.

2 'Tell her to make me a cambric shirt,
Without any seam or needlework.

3 'Tell her to wash it in yonder well,
Where never spring-water nor rain ever fell.

4 'Tell her to dry it on yonder thorn,
Which never bore blossom since Adam was born.'

5 'Now he has asked me questions three,
Parsley, sage, rosemary, and thyme
I hope he will answer as many for me;
For once he was a true-love of mine.

6 'Tell him to find me an acre of land
Betwixt the salt water and the sea-sand.

7 'Tell him to plough it with a ram's horn,
And sow it all over with one pepper-corn.

8 'Tell him to reap it with a sickle of leather,
And bind it up with a peacock's feather.

9 'When he has done, and finished his work,
O tell him to come, and he'll have his shirt.'

* * * *

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: CAMERIC SARK / CAMBRIC SHIRT
From: Richie
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 11:36 PM

Hi,

This is an early version of Child 2, my title, from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/J, p. 06902:

Cameric Sark- sung by Alexander Brown of Anchor Cottage, Land street, Rothes (Moray) Scotland. Heard about sixty years ago, dated c.1870.

As I was a walkin' early one day,
Where every rose sprung bonnie an' thyme,
It's there I met a bonnie fair may,
An' fain wid she be a true lover o' mine.

CHORUS: True lover o' mine, true lover o' mine
       An' fain wid she be a true lover o' mine.

Ye'll mak unto me a cameric sark
withoot ony stichin' nor yet needle waurk,

Syne since ye've asked this question o me,
Where every rose sprung bonnie an' thyme,
But I've got something to speir at ye,
Afore ye can be a true lover o mine.

Ye'll ploo unto me an acre o land
Atween the saut sea an' the strand,

Ye'll ploo it all ower wi' a ram’s horn,
And saw [sow] it all ower wi' a seed o corn,

"We'll cut it all doon wi' a peacock's fether,
An' ye'll bind it up wi' the sting o an ather [adder].

So when ye've finished all yer waurk
Ye'll come unto me, an' ye’ll get yer sark,

* * * *

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: KING ETHELRED AND CHEELD VEAN
From: Richie
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 11:55 PM

Hi,

This is by far the most unusual version of Child 2 in the Carpenter Collection titled, King Ethelred & Cheeld-Vean (little child) recited (or/and sung?) in Cornwall. From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, p. 04807; also Atkinson 1998, p. 436, see also p. 438, Kloss. A brief excerpt of a bio from Wiki follows.

Wiki: Ethelred or Æthelred (c. 966 – 23 April 1016), known as the Unready, was King of the English from 978 to 1013 and again from 1014 until his death. His epithet does not derive from the modern word "unready", but rather from the Old English unræd (meaning "poorly advised"); it is a pun on his name, which means "well advised".

King Ethelred and Cheeld-Vean from Jim Thomas, MS , 14 Union Street, Camborne, Cornwall, England by c. 1930. Thomas, aged over 80 years was formerly one of Cecil Sharp's informants.

[Spoken] In the days when Saxon kings invaded England
Each one taking their sections for to rule
Ethelred father north, Diddimus here in Cornwall
The King approached a cheeld-vean (little child) and said:

King Ethelred:
       "Good morning, fair maid"
       "Good morning, Sir", she said.

       "Can you make a shirt without a needle?

       Can you sew without a seam?
       Can you wash in a well where the water never stream?

       Can you dry in a hedge where the sun never shine?"

Cheeld-Vean:
       "Yes, Kind Sir, that I can.

       "Can you plough with a ram's horn
       And harve[1] it with a bushy thorne,

       Saw it with a pepper dredge,
       In a field without a hedge,

       And mow it in a mouse's hole,
       And trash it with a shoesole,

       Do it all and not complain;
       Then come to me again
       And you shall have your shirt made."
________________________

1. harvest

Subject: Lyr Add: GREEN HOLLY AND IVY
From: Richie
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 12:05 AM

Hi,

Some of the "tasks" in the last post are similarly found in "My father left me an acre of land," which uses the "Sing ivy" first refrain. This related Ballad Type has a different Roud number, 21093, and should be regarded as a song or nursery rhyme which has been created from the second set of tasks. It could be an appendix, however, I'm listing those versions under Child 2 as Ballad Type IV.

There are several "Sing Ivy" texts collected by Carpenter. This one is from the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, p.04819.

Green Holly and Ivy- sung by Edward Newitt of Oxfordshire, England about 1930.

My father he left me an acre of ground,
Sing inc, sing inc, sing ivy.
My father he left me an acre of ground,
With a little green holly and ivy.

I ploughed it up with a team of cats,
&c

I sowed it down with some caraway seed,
&c

I cut it down with the wing of a flee,
&c

I carted it home on a mouse's back,
&c

* * * *

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: SING HOLLY AND IVY
From: Richie
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 12:12 AM

Hi,

This is a longer "Sing Ivy" version from the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/J, p. 06906:

Sing Holly and Ivy- sung by Jim Cox of Hamptonfields, Minchenhampton about 1930.
   
My father he keepit a team o' rats,
Sing ovey, sing ivy.
I ploughed his land with that team o' rats
With a bunch of green holly an' ivy.

He worked it all down with this team o' rats,

He sowed his seed with a little sidlip,

He worked it all down with this team o rats

He rolled it all down with this team o' rats,

he ripped his corn with his little penknife,

He hauled it all home with this team o' rats

He built his mow in a mouse's hole,

He thrashed his corn with his little fan,

He winnowed it with his little fan,

He stacked it up in his old box hat,

He sent it all out with this team o rats,

His team o rats come a-rattlin' back,

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 10:06 AM

Hi Richie, it was me who suggested to Steve 'Acre o' Land' should have its own number, even though there are a few interim versions that clearly demonstrate the evolution from one song to the other. The main reason for a separate number was that 'Acre o' Land' had completely lost its riddling/task function and by the 19th century had its own autonomy and was extremely popular. Just about every farm hand in East Yorkshire knew a version when I started recording in the 60s. There are 3 quite different versions on our website www.yorkshirefolksong.net that came from the same place within a few yards of each other.

Subject: Lyr Add: ROSEMARY FAIR
From: Richie
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 12:34 PM

Hi Steve,

I agree with the new Roud number and think perhaps I should list it as an appendix. One of the intermediate songs (snail/mouse's tail) with some associated text, although a version of Roud 12, Child 2 is the Irish variant:

Rosemary Fair as sung by Frank Harte on the album: Dublin Street Songs/ Through Dublin City (1967)
Listen Rosemary Fair - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2uBvoEAfVE

You may go down to Rosemary Fair,
    Every rose grows merry and fine,
And pick me out then the finest boy there,
    And I will make him a true love of mine.

Tell him to get me an acre of land,
    Every rose grows merry and fine,
Between the salt sea and the salt sea strand
    Or he cannot be a true love of mine.

Tell him to plough it with a ram's horn,
    Every rose grows merry and fine,
And sow it all over with one grain of corn,
    Or he cannot be a true love of mine.
   
Tell him to reap it with a cock's feather,
    Every rose grows merry and fine,
And bind it all down with strappings of leather,
    And I will make him true lover of mine.

And tell him to drive it home on a snail,
    Every rose grows merry and fine,
And thresh it all out with a mouse's tail,
    And I will make him a true lover of mine.

Tell him to bring it to Rosemary Fair
Every rose grows merry and fine
And when he arrives, they'll be nobody there
And he cannot be a true lover of mine.

Since you have been so hard upon me,
Every rose grows merry and fine;
I'm going to be, as hard upon thee
If you wish to be a true lover of mine.

You may go down to Rosemary Fair,
Every rose grows merry and fine
And pick me out then the nicest girl there
And I will make her a true lover of mine.

Tell her to send me a cambric shirt,
Every rose grows merry and fine
Made without needle or needlework,
Or she cannot be a true lover of mine

Tell he wash it in yonder well,
Every rose grows many and fine;
Where water ne'er rose and rain ne'er fell,
And I will make her a true lover of mine.

Tell her to dry it on yonder thorn,
Every rose grows merry and fine,
Where none never grew since Adam was born,
And I will make her a true lover of mine.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 02:42 PM

Interesting version with the tasks reversed.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 03:51 PM

With this amount of detail I can't conceive of a situation where the sets of tasked would be reversed without a deliberate conscious act involved. You say THE Irish variant. Are there other examples?

Subject: Lyr Add: EVERY ROSE BLOOMS
From: Richie
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 01:36 PM

Hi,

My title. Here's a version from the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/2/2/E, p. 04818. which has the second set of tasks only- similar to "Sing Ivy." This could be considered a cross-over form.

Every Rose Blooms- sung by Mrs. Watson Gray, Corner house East st. Fochabers, Morayshire Scotland heard over 50 years ago from old man William Stuart of Glenlivet.

Ye maun has an acre o' land
Every rose blooms bonnie in thyme,
Atween the sae and the saut sea strand
Afore ye be a true lover o' mine.

Ye maun ploo it wi' yon ram's horn.
And saw [sow] it with ae grain o' corn.

Ye maun shear it wi' a peacock feather,
An' bind it up wi' a sting o' an ether [tongue of an adder]

Ye maun carry it hame on yon snail's back,
An' cover wi' a rainbow for a thack.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 03:06 PM

The jump from riddle tasks to inheritance and first person, together with the new refrain, must have been, I feel, a conscious act probably by one person, as these are all big jumps. Changing refrains are common in ballads even where they use proper words, but the whole meaning and purpose of the song changes in 'Sing Ivy' types. What can be seen is a lengthening of the progression of tasks in Elfin Knight types before this takes place. I think it probably happened some time in the middle of the 19thc.

Subject: Lyr Add: TRUE LOVE OF MINE
From: Richie
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 08:16 PM

Hi,

Just when I though I had all the Carpenter versions of Child 2 another pops up:

From:(VWML Song Index SN24452) Carpenter Collection 04816

True Love of Mine- sung by Mrs. Mary Stewart Robertson of New Deer, about 1930 learned from Christina Stewart Robertson 50 years ago.

Come a' you young maids that's sittin' by me,
Let every rose grow merry in thyme,
Ye'll buy tae me a white holland shirt,
An saw [sow] it a' up wi' oot[1] needle work,
Afore ye be a true lover of mine.

Ye'll wash it up in yonder well
Where water ne'er sprung nor dew ne'er fell.

An' ye'll dry it on yonder thorn
The bush that was rotten before Adam wis born.

Ye'll buy tae me an acre o' land
Atwen the saut water and the sea sand,

Ye'll plow it up wi' ae ram's horn
An saw [sow] it a' doon wi' a pill o' corn.

An' ye'll shear it doon wi' a peacock's feather,
An' ye'll mak it weel up wi' the sting o' an adder [tongue of an adder]

__________________

1. written in by hand looks like, "without"

* * * *

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: A BUNCH OF GREEN HOLLY AND IVY
From: Richie
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 08:21 PM

Hi,

This is the longest Carpenter Collection variant (22 stanzas) of "Sing Ivy" or "My father left me an acre of land" (Roud 21093). From James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/3/J, pp. 06907-06908, the last stanzas are confused.

A Bunch of Green Holly and Ivy- sung by Daniel Fisher of Weston Newbury, Berkshire, about 1880 when he was a little lad.

My father he died and left me some land,
Sing ivy, sing ivy,
My father he died and left me some land
With a bunch of holly and ivy.

I ploughed it up with three buck horns

I sewed it up with three peppercorns,

I harrowed it with a bramble bush,

I rolled it down with me rollin' pin,

My carn came up and it did look well

I rolled it down with me rollin' pin,

I reaped it down wi' me little pen knife

I shocked it up in nine little shocks,

I builded me a rick in a mouse's hole,

I drawed it to a rick with an old blind rat,

I thrashed it out with three bean stalks

I winnowed it out with the tyale[1] o' me shirt.

I measured it in an old quart cup,

I sacked it up in three mice skins,

I sent it to market with a team o' rats,

The team of rats came rattling back

The whip did crack on the old rat's back

The money came back in the corner of the sack,

The miller came back with a broken back

The team of rats came rattling back
Sing ivy, sing ivy,
The whip did crack on the old rat's back,
With a bunch of holly and ivy.

The team of rats came rattling back
Sing ivy, sing ivy,
The bells did ring and the carter did sing,
With a bunch of holly and ivy.

1. Original spelling for "tail"

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 07:55 AM

That's a good version, Richie. I can't see a tune for it in the VWML archive, but TBH I'm finding that quite difficult to use since the revamp, and I haven't sussed out how to get to the Carpenter recordings. Any advice appreciated.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 08:44 AM

Brian

If you use this link JMC Index you can follow the tree to get to the recordings. Cylinders and Discs are the last 2 items in the initial tree. Tunnel down to a song and you'll get the cylinder in the information on the right. (I think you'll need to allow cookies to make it work and I can't seem to open items in a new tab).

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 09:12 AM

If you want to search for a specific song, use the Advanced Search on the VWML Index Search Page. Use the 1st drop down (it shows All fields initially) to select eg Roud Number: 12 (or title or whatever you need to select the song), press + to get the next drop down and select Collector : Carpenter; press + again to get another drop down and select Source Contents: Audio. Then press Submit and that will get you any entries with audio (there's also a fragmentary audio too I think).

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 09:49 AM

Thanks, Mick. I'd worked out some of that, but not all of it. With your assistance I've now found at least one recording of 'Acre of Land' from an unknown man in Gloucestershire.

However, when I search the Carpenter archive for Richie's last example, by entering Roud number = 12 and performer = fisher, I don't get any hits.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 09:57 AM

Brian

You need Roud 21093. See Steve's notes above on his instigation of different Roud number for Acre of Land versions. So Roud:21093, Collecter: Carpenter, Performer: Fisher returns 3 entries.

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 11:14 AM

Thanks again, Mick, I think I've got the hang of it now. Still no recording or tune from Mr Fisher, but you can't have everything.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 01:39 PM

Brian again!

While I remember, about the word Cather you were asking about above and Steve suggested might be a local name for the Calder.

Lyle's notes to the song in Vol1 say:

"..and evidently Crawfurd was responsible for substituting the River Calder (which runs through Lochwinnoch parish) under its old name of 'Cather', which occurs eg on the cover of a letter dated 1740 that was in Crawfurd's posession and is now in Paisley Central Library"

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Richie
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 03:02 PM

Brian,

Another way to find out is to use the main (Carpenter) search engine: https://www.dhi.ac.uk/carpenter/ginit.jsp?src=box2pac2.xml&id=p04803.0

This is the Fisher item: A Bunch of Green Holly and Ivy. Blunt has a copy with the same refrain with music. You can search: VWML Song Index with title or RN12 with title. It seems clear that the Fisher text was from "Miscellaneous Field Typescripts and Manuscripts" and not a recording. Every recording may not be on the site yet but if you use the online catalogue that should tell you if there is a recording.

Some items are not listed properly -if you search RN12 Carpenter - not every item comes up. I had to search "True Love of Mine" to find one item.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Richie
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 03:21 PM

The last two versions of Child 2 are fragments, the first is missing the opening line, while the second is scribbled and has three disjointed stanzas:

1. James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/8/1/K, p. 12026

"Every rose grows" sung by Mrs Annie Morrison from The Hill, Evanston, Scotland (p.04608/p.05478), 1931 with music.

Every rose grows bonnie and thyme
Between the salt water and the sea sand
Before ye can be a true lover of mine.

2. Carpenter MSS Reel 4, Box 2, Packet II. listed incorrectly as Roud 21093.

"True Lover of Mine" George McDonald, from The Hill, Evanton, near Inverness, Scotland, 1931.

Ye maun ploo me an acre of land
As every rose bids bonny in time
Between the salt water and the sea sand,
Before ye can be a true lover of min,

He maun sew for me a cameric shirt
And bleach it on the green,
Where grass never grew nor rain never fell

She maun ploo for me an acre of land
And turn it over with a peacock's feather

* * * *
Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: THE DEVIL AND THE MAID
From: Richie
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 03:37 PM

Hi,

Although the Child 2 is regarded by many as battle of wits between lovers, the Scottish versions of A is a competition between the Elfin Knight and the maid. At least in Perthshire among the Scottish travellers, it's clear that the Elfin Knight is the Devil. A 1956 recording made at The School of Scottish Studies of Bella Higgins and her brother Andrew Stewart (known as the Blairgowrie Stewarts from Perthshire) sums up their family version:

The Traveller meets the Devil, who gives him impossible tasks to do, but when the Traveller quotes the Bible, the Devil disappears in a ball of flame.

This is similar to some Scottish versions of Child 1 and Bella also knew a version of Child 3, a ballad where the Devil confronts a schoolboy. Unfortunately, the stanzas of the archaic Stewart family version of The Elfin Knight could not fully be remembered (see: fragment Bella Higgins "Elfin Knight") and are now lost forever.

In 1955 a Perth version was collected by Collinson and Henderson from "Peasie" Martha Reid (Johnston) of Birnam, Perthshire:

"It's supposed to be him that's doun below (i.e. the Devil) that's giving this woman a task."

Peasie gave a version to Peter Shepheard and her husband Duncan Johnston also knew a few lines. This last example from Perth makes it clear who these Scottish travellers thought the Elphin Knight was:

The Devil and the Maid- As sung by Ronnie McDonald and his father John McDonald at Marshall's field, Alyth, Perthshire in August 1965. Recorded by Peter Shepheard, also Ewan MacColl.

There once was a fair maid went for a walk,
Blow, blow, blow ye wynds blow,
She met a devil on the way.
The weary winds'll blow ma plaidie awa

"Noo," he says tae her, "I will gie ye a task,
Blow, blow, blow ye wynds blow
Ye'll mak tae me a Holland sark,
Aye without either seam or needlework.
An the weary winds'll blow ma plaidie awa

'For ye'll wash it doun in yon draw well,
Where there never was water or a dew drop fell.'

'For ye'll dry it up with one blink o sun,
Blow, blow, blow ye wynds blow
If I do that task for you,
Surely you'll do one for me.
An the weary winds'll blow ma plaidie awa'

'For ye'll fetch to me three acres of land,
Aye atween the salt sea an the salt sea strand.'

'For you'll plough it up with a dooble ram's horn,
An ye'll harrow it ower wi a tree o blackthorn.'

'For ye'll sow it ower wi one pile o corn, [a pile = a grain
And ye'll ripe it up wi one blink o sun.' [ripe = ripen]

'For ye'll shear it down wi a peahen's feather,
And ye'll stook it up wi a stang o an ether.' [stang o an ether = tongue of an adder

'For ye'll yoke two sparrows in a matchbox,
And ye'll cart it home to your own farm yard.'

'For it's when you do that task for me,
Blow, blow, blow ye wynds blow
You come back an ye'll get your sark.'
The weary winds'll blow ma plaidie awa'.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Richie
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 05:34 PM

Hi,

Here's a summary of the Carpenter versions of Child 2 (included are the Sing Ivy versions). The Carpenter master title is Elfin Knight and there are 16 versions, three of which are fragments, "King Ethelred & Cheeld-Vean" is recited and introduces other material.

    Cambric Shirt- Robert Nicol (Aber) 1869 Carpenter
    Cambric Shirt- Alex Stephens (Aber) c.1869 Carpenter
    Cameric Sark- Alex Brown (Aber) c.1870 Carpenter
    The Laird o' Elfin- Alex. Robb (Aber) c.1875 Greig/Carpenter
    Camerin Sark- Peter Chritie (Aber) c1880 Carpenter
    Every Rose Blooms- Mrs Gray (Mor) 1880 Carpenter
    True Love of Mine- Christina Roberston (Aber) 1880 Carpenter
    Elfin Knight- Bell Duncan (Aber) c.1930 Carpenter
    Cambric Shirt- John Ross (Aber) c.1930 Carpenter
    King Ethelred & Cheeld-Vean- Thomas (Corn) 1930 Carpenter
    Every rose grows- Morrison (Ross) 1931 Carpenter
    True Lover of Mine- McDonald (Ross) 1931 Carpenter

    Bunch of Green Holly and Ivy- Fisher (Berk) c.1880 Carpenter
    Green Holly & Ivy- E. Newitt (Oxf) 1930 Carpenter
    Sing Holly and Ivy- Jim Cox (Minch) 1930 Carpenter
    Green Holly An' Ivy- Belcher (Oxf) 1930 Carpenter

* * * *

Since Child 3 apparently has no Carpenter versions, Child 4 is next.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 09:50 AM

Thanks, Richie. The sheer volume of that Carpenter stuff is all a bit overwhelming. Well done for getting to grips with it.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Richie
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 03:31 PM

Thanks Brian,

I'm sure you'll be doing a new CD of Carpenter Collection songs with Fisher's version on it!!

Child 2 has a lot of varied material. I've finished a rough draft of the British versions and the main headnotes of Child 2 here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/british-versions--other-versions--headnotes.aspx

I've waited for the Carpenter versions to finish the Child ballads. It's going to take a while :)

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 04:50 PM

Not at the speed you move, Richie!

Nit-picking perhaps, but the travellers refer to THE Devil in their description, but the version given here says A devil, i.e., a demon or an imp. The two sparrows in a matchbox perhaps a step along the development towards Acre of Land.

Brian, lacking a tune, I think the most common tune used for 'Acre of Land' is Brighton Camp.

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Carl in VT
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 11:12 PM

Richie - (a bit off this thread) Saw a post of yours under "Dominique" from some years back saying "Lord Randall" is unk. in France, tho a version is found in the maritimes ("Le garcon empoissoné"). Try under "Honoré, mon Enfant", Trad., via Gabriel Yacoub, Green Linnet, SIF 3038, according to my notes. It's Honoré who cops it, not Lord Randall, but it's the same story.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE ELF KNIGHT + THE CAMBRIC SHIRT
From: Richie
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 12:38 AM

Thanks, Carl and Steve,

I agree that "a" devil is not "the" Devil, in the other Perth versions it's not "a" devil.
We're headed toward Lord Randall :)

I found two more with Devil in them; one from Perth and another from Newfoundland. Both are versions of Child A (by refrains). I don't have access to full text of the Newfoundland version so only one stanza is given:

"The Elf Knight." Sung by Alexander Reid ('Shells') of Pitlochry, Perthshire, collected by Linda Headlee on 14th September 1975; Tocher XX (1975) pp.140-1.

Go mak tae me a Highland shirt
Withoot a seam or needle a work,
And the dreary, dreary winds blaw my plaidie awa.

You'll wash it in a ne'er dry well
Where there ne'er was water nor one drop o dew fell;
You'll dry it on a thorn haw bush
Where there ne'er was thorns since Adam was born,
And the dreary, dreary wind blaw my plaidie awa.

O devil, o de'il, ye put a task on me
And it's surely I'll put one on you;
You will find to me three acre o land
Between the salt sea and the salt sea strand,
You will plough it up with a tup's horn - [spoken] a tup doesn't have a horn -
You will sow it over with one pea o corn,
And the dreary, dreary wind'll nae blaw my plaidie awa.

You will cut it down with a peahen feather,
You will stook it up with a tongue of an adder;
You will yoke two sparrows in a match-box*
And cart it home to our own farm yard,
And the dreary, dreary wind'll blaw my plaidie awa.

* * * *

The Cambric Shirt- sung by Charlotte Decker of Parson's Pond, Great Northern Penninsula, Newfoundland in August 1966.

The devil came to her one night in bed,
Blow, blow, blow the wind blow,
And this is the very words he said,
The wind do blow my plaid awa.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: OldNicKilby
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 08:40 AM

O K I know it's a bit off topic but songs have travelled. I remember being out with a Client in Barcelona who as a Catalan Bag piper. We were discussing songs and he asked me what I was singing at the time . I mentioned and sang Cherry Tree Carol , Ah he said we have the same song in Catalan Tradition but the tree is an Almond
When the Opera House in Barcelona burnt down the had to re-bind many of the Books, they found a version of "Go from My Window " in Spanish of course in the Binding of a book from the Twelve Hundreds

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 10:34 AM

a version of "Go from My Window "

The English language version can be traced back to the 16th century, but it would be useful to see a translation of a 13th century variant. Of course the basic plot features in a number of songs and ballads, various types of 'Drowsy Sleeper' among others. Has the Spanish variant been published?

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Richie
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 08:44 PM

Hi,

I'm working some on UK versions of Child 3 (didn't see any Carpenter versions of "False Knight") before I'm moving to Carpenter versions of Child 4. I'm wondering if Child 3 is Irish-- partly because of the 1818 Irish text and partly because the informant for Child A (Motherwell from Crawfurd) Mary MacQueen's father was Irish.

Any Irish texts or recordings? Origin of the recent Irish "False Fly" versions (Barry Gleeson)?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Richie
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 10:46 PM

Hi,

Consider the first of the two Irish stanza sung by a Dublin madwoman in "Women, Or, Pour Et Contre: A Tale" - page 26 by Charles Robert Maturin - 1818:

The woman loitered some time after the rest, and with the inconsistency of madness, was singing a fragment of an Irish ballad evidently of monkish composition, and of which the air has all the monotonous melancholy of the chaunt of the cloister:—

“Oh, I wish you were along with me,
Said the false knight, as he rode;
And our Lord in company,
Said the child, and he stood.”

“Where's the next,” she muttered; “ay —gone far off, like all I remembered once —far off.”

“Oh, I wish you were in yonder well,
Said the false knight, as he rode;
And you in the pit of hell,
Said the child, and he stood.”

And her voice died away in indistinct mutterings.

    with this stanza from Ulster Folklife, 1955:

In fact, the traditions so overlap and intertwine that it's impossible to dogmatize about the origins of some songs either in words or in music. But here is a Scots Ballad which, although it must be over two hundred years in these parts, is still sung to the air of The Uist Tramping Song:

“What brings you here so late?” said the Knight on the road:
“I go to meet my God,” said the Child as he stood,
And he stood and he stood and 'twere well he stood;
“I go to meet my God,” said the Child as he stood.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 09:44 AM

"The Uist Tramping Song" is copyright 1937 by Hugh S. Roberton & John S. Bannerman.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE FAUSE KNICHT
From: Richie
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 10:12 AM

Hi,

The first excerpt is from the novel: "Women, Or, Pour Et Contre: A Tale," page 26 by Charles Robert Maturin - 1818. Set in the Dublin area by Maturin (1782-1824), an Irish clergyman and writer of gothic plays and novels who lived in Dublin, the two Irish stanzas predate the (assumed Scottish) version published by Motherwell(Child A) in 1827.

The version from Motherwell was sung by Mary MacQueen (Storie) b. 1803 in Kilbirnie (Aryshire) Scotland. Her father, Osbourne MacQueen, was from County Down, Ireland-- born about 1781 (Son of James and Janet (Stevens) McQueen). Could Mary's version be Irish from her father? Her mother was from Kilbirnie and Mary was born there so naturally she would sing in Scots dialect. Her version was given by Crawfurd to Motherwell and Motherwell made few changes to Mary's text (see Lyle's transcript below) which was published without attribution in his "Minstrelsy: ancient and modern" in 1827.

A number of versions from the US are directly taken from Irish sources. Barry prints the first Irish text in 1911:

THE FALSE KNIGHT UPON THE ROAD (Child, 3) Sung before 1870, in Fort Kent, Me., by a French girl who could speak very little English, as learned from an illiterate Irish family. From "The False Knight upon the Road," A, Folk-Songs of the North Atlantic States recollected by M. L. F., Portland, Me., Oct. 16, 1907.

    1. "What have you in your bottle, my dear little lad?"
         Quo the fol fol Fly on the road,
       "I have some milk for myself for to drink!"
         Said the child, who was seven years old.

In this text the words "fol fol Fly" are very likely corrupted from "foul, foul Fiend;" that is, the Devil. Fragmentary as it is, the text is interesting as attesting the survival, in America, of a ballad supposed to be long extinct, and, furthermore, as retaining a form of the theme more primitive than that of Motherwell's version.

* * * *

Here is Mary MacQueen's version. Although an Irish source (her father) is speculation, it's possible:

Andrew Crawfurd's Collection of Ballads and Songs - Page 77 by E. B. Lyle- 1975 (his footnotes):

Motherwell does not credit Mrs Storie with the text of The Fause Knight upon the Road that he printed in his introduction but the Crawfurd MSS indicate that it was derived from her. The ten detached verses linked with the music were also, it seems, from Mrs Storie. As three of these are the same as full texts, this gives seven additional items from this singer. The fourteen items from Mrs Storie which were included by Motherwell in his Minstrelsy and Ballad Book were available to Child who printed all of them apart from The Deil's Wowing (41 The Deil's Courtship in the present collection) which fell outside his compass.

THE FAUSE KNICHT from Mary Macqueen (Mrs Storie) Crawfurd's Collection:

1 O whar are ye gaun quo[1] the fause knicht upon the road
I'm gawn to the skeul quo the wee boy and still he stood

2 What is that upon your back quo the fause knicht upon the rade
Atweel[2] it is my books quo the wee boy and still he stood

3 What's that ye hae gotten in your arm quo the fause knicht upon
Atweel it is my peat[3] quo the wee boy and still he stood the road

4 Wha's aught they sheep[4] quo the fause knicht upon the road
They are mine an my mother's quo the wee boy and still he stood

5 How money of them are mine quo the fause knicht upon the road
Aw them that hae blue tails quo the wee boy and still he stood

6 O I wish ye were on yon tree quo the fause knicht upon the road
And a guid ladder under me quo the wee boy and still he stood

7 And the ladder for to break quo the fause knicht upon the road
And you for to faw down quo the wee boy and still he stood

8 I wish ye were in yon sea quo the fause knicht upon the road
And a gude bottom[5] under me quo the wee boy and still he stood

9 And the bottom for to break quo the fause knicht upon the road
And you for to be drowned quo the wee boy and still he stood

1 quo said
2 atweel certainly, sure
3 peat piece of peat (for use on the schoolroom fire)
4 wha's aught they sheep "whose are these sheep"
8 bottom ship

* * * *

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: UIST TRAMPING SONG + KNIGHT ON THE ROAD
From: Richie
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 10:57 AM

TY Lighter,

I don't know whether the Uist Tramping Song is in fact the standard Irish tune for "False Knight" as claimed. There's a version of the Uist Tramping Song by the Corries on youtube and it's called a traditional Scottish song (the copyright doesn't necessary reflect the age of the song). The Irish verse of "False Knight" which they claim was sung two hundred years ago in Ulster(1755), seems to be the same as, or taken from, the 1961 recording of Frank Quinn of County Tyrone (see text below). If anyone has any info on Quinn's song please post it.

Uist Tramping Song

Chorus:
Come along, come along,
Let us foot it out together,
Come along, come along,
Be it fair or stormy weather,
With the hills of home before us,
And the purple of the heather,
Let us sing in happy chorus,
Come along, come along.

O gaily sings the lark,
And the sky's all awake,
With the promise of the day,
For the road we gladly take;
So it's heel and toe and forward,
Bidding farewell to the town,
For the welcome that awaits us,
Ere the sun goes down.
Chorus:

It's the call of sea and shore,
It's the tang of bog and peat,
And the scent of brier and myrtle,
That puts magic in our feet;
So it's on we go rejoicing,
Over bracken, over stile,
And it's soon we will be tramping
Out the last long mile.
Chorus:

* * * *

The Knight on the Road- from the singing of Frank Quinn, County Tyrone, recorded in 1961.

“What brings you here so late?” said the Knight on the road:
“I go to meet my God,” said the Child as he stood,
And he stood and he stood and 'twere well he stood;
“I go to meet my God,” said the Child as he stood.

“How will you go by land? said the knight on the road.
"With a strong staff in my hand," said the child as he stood.
And he stood, and he stood, and 'twere well he stood.
"With a strong staff in my hand," said the child as he stood.

"How will you go by sea?" said the knight on the road.
"With a good ship under me,' said the child as he stood.
And he stood, and he stood, and 'twere well he stood,
"With a good ship under me," said the child as he stood.

“Methinks I hear a bell,” said the knight on the road.
“It's ringing you to hell,” said the child as he stood.
And he stood and he stood, and 'twere well that he stood.
“It's ringing you to hell,” said the child as he stood.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 03:12 PM

Richie, in this case I think we can rely on the copyright date.

Roberton's "Songs of the Isles" (1950), p. 36, includes the Uist song with the 1937 copyright notice.

The credits read, "The original Gaelic words by Archibald MacDonald, Uist. The English words by Hugh S. Roberton. Tune by John R. Bannerman arranged by Hugh S. Roberton."

It thus seems that the "song" originated as a Gaelic poem by MacDonald, whose words may or may not have been translated by Roberton himself.

Roberton identifies most of the melodies in "Songs of the Isles" as "Traditional" or "Old Highland air" or similar. But a few are clearly attributed to current composers as original tunes.

"Westering Home" (crt. 1939 by Hugh S. Roberton) is interesting because Roberton claims the words and the stanza melody, but attributes that of the chorus to "the singing of Donald McIsaac."

Roberton was evidently scrupulous in distinguishing the traditional from the brand-new.

McIsaac's tune is easily recognizable as a version of "The Muckin' o' Geordie's Byre."

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Shimmering
Date: 17 Mar 18 - 05:02 PM

I've only just started reading this thread ... so if anyone is interested in the Exeter Book riddles (the Anglo Saxon riddles), this here is a blog I follow that gives the riddles in OE, translation, and commentary.

They are not really similar to the riddles in Child 1: they are all much longer, more complicated, and the answers are not given and are not always obvious ...

Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter & Child Ballads
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Mar 18 - 07:45 PM

Not only "Geordie's Byre."

It also sounds a lot like the Jacobite song "Ghille Mhoir."

Sort of in between.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE FALSE KNIGHT UPON THE ROAD
From: Richie
Date: 18 Mar 18 - 02:19 PM

Hi Lighter thanks,

We can assume then that the words and song were 1939 but that the melody was older and probably borrowed since according to Ulster Folklife, it was sung for two hundred years as the "False Knight."

This same melody and text, probably originating from Quinn's version is, one of the most popular ones and has been used by Oysterband, Richard Thompson, Hart and Prior, Fleet Foxes and Outside Track-- to name just a few covers.

However, to verify the traditionality of the Irish version we have to look to the US at versions brought over from the UK since there aren't earlier Irish ones. Luckily, Sharp A which was collected in 1916 (Tennessee) has the same melody and text:

THE FALSE KNIGHT UPON THE ROAD- from Mrs. T.G. Coates, TN 1916; Collected by Sharp.

O where are you going to?
Said the knight on the road
I'm a-going to my school,
Said the Child as he stood.
He stood and he stood,
And it's well because he stood
I'm a-going to my school
Said the child as he stood.

O what are you going there for?
For to learn the word of God.

O what have you got there?
I have got my bread and cheese.

O won't you give me some?
No, ne'er a bit nor crumb.

I wish you was on the sands.
Yes, and a good staff in my hands.

I wish you was on the sea
Yes, and a good boat under me.

I think I hear a bell.
Yes, and it's ringing you to hell.

There's even an intro narrative: "The knight met a child on the road..." If we look at Mike Yates article on the Coates family (The Greatest Prize) we find this: 'According to Coates' family tradition, the first members of the family had arrived in America as 'Irish missionaries' and had settled originally in South Carolina. . ."

Yes, the Coates believe they were originally Irish. This would corroborate the Ulster Folklife claim and date.

Richie