BS: Israel's Sharpville

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 10:05 AM

Don't bother PFR
If/when Israel starts sentencing its opponents to death this pair will be in the front of the queue to pull the rope
Remember the Black Holes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:57 AM

Hark... is someone talking bollocks...???

hmmmmm... yes... I think so...

"Your question is the wrong way round. Most people, and all liberal democratic governments, feel the same about it as say Bobad and me.

That is the moderate, mainstream view.
That is the moderate, mainstream view.
The real question is why you on the Left single out Israel as if it was the worst place in the world, while ignoring the much worse shortcomings of Israel's enemies and neighbours."

See I'd have thought 'Most people' are several degrees of indifferent to all this...!!!

Worst place in the world...??? well I know I'd never say that about Israel..
A chap really shouldn't make such stupidly malignant sweeping statements
about my or any other reasonable humanists opinions...

and as for "ignoring the much worse shortcomings of Israel's enemies and neighbours"

Can't say I've ever done that either..

I consistently call out the fanatical zealot murderous arseholes on both sides of the divide...

So, in conclusion - yes, I definitely heard someone talking complete bollocks
whilst slyly evading the real question put to the likes of him...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:42 AM

PFR,
Seriously.. just what are the real motives and objectives of such ardent non jewish/Israeli supporters of the Israeli regime...??????

Your question is the wrong way round. Most people, and all liberal democratic governments, feel the same about it as say Bobad and me.

That is the moderate, mainstream view.
The real question is why you on the Left single out Israel as if it was the worst place in the world, while ignoring the much worse shortcomings of Israel's enemies and neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:36 AM

Dave, we revoked the citizenship of people who went to fight for ISIS.

The person you refer to,
" a judge said the move was a “suitable and proportional” response after Zayoud ploughed a car into a female Israeli soldier before stabbing three civilians near Kibbutz Gan Shmuel, northeast of Hadera, in October 2015."
Zayoud was convicted of four counts of attempted murder and sentenced to 25 years in jail following the "nationalistically motivated" attack, which came during a spate of stabbings and shootings in Israel.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-revokes-citizenship-stripped-arab-israeli-alaa-raed-ahmad-zayoud-haifa-kibbutz-gan-shmuel-a7879771.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:35 AM

Seriously.. just what are the real motives and objectives of such ardent non jewish/Israeli supporters of the Israeli regime...??????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:28 AM

Bob - It's easy enough to maliciously denigrate, a 'fringe jew'...

Dismissively marginalising inconvenient alternative viewpoints is an age old nasty trick of the far right...

But shouldn't a 'fringe jew' at least be accorded more respect and credibility and right to comment on Israel and related issues
than a non jew and non Israeli...???

Or even pretend wannabe jews/Israelis...!!!???

There does seem to be a peculiar kind of rabid pro Israeli habitually/obsessively spreading propaganda in these threads,
who writes in such a way as if they were jews/Israelis...
It may only be at an implicit level, but it is an odd [inadvertent...???] pretense which could easily fool casual readers
into thinking these imposters are real enough to merit more credibility than deserved...

I know I'm only quarter jew, ["Mischling of the second degree" for any right wingers here who take a keen interest in such classifications...]
so perhaps that fairly entitles me to my opinions...???

- and before the 2 main pro Israelis turn this round and say "But Jim's not a Jew, so he should shut up"

Well maybe he isn't, but at least he doesn't play a game of slyly implying that he might be.....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:27 AM

Revoking citizenship: Israel's new repressive tool

Could be a worry for many.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:20 AM

"I'm glad you consider Benny Morris a respected historian. "
I didn'rt say I agreed with what he said - just that he is respected in Israel and is unlikely to say anything detrimental about his homeland
His views are as contentious as any other supporter of Israel
You are a pair of ethnic cleansing supporters and atrocity deniers - why should anybody vbe the slightest bit interested in what you have to say
At least David Irving did some homework before he wrote his filth
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 01 May 18 - 09:12 AM

Historians like Benny Morris are respected figures in the field of Israeli history

I'm glad you consider Benny Morris a respected historian.

Read what he has to say about Avi Shlaim: Derisionist History

Excerpt:

Nowhere in this book does Shlaim say a word about the Jewish people’s three-thousand-year-old connection to the Land of Israel--that this land was the Jewish people’s cradle; that they subsequently ruled it, on and off, for over a thousand years; and that for the next two millennia, after going into exile, they aspired and longed for repatriation. Nor does he mention that the Arabs, who had no connection to Palestine, in the seventh century conquered the land “unjustly” from the Byzantine Empire and “illegally” settled in it, forcibly converting it into an “Arab” land. If conquest does not grant rightful claim, then surely this should be true universally?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 18 - 08:58 AM

For Christs sake read the book Keith rather than trawling around for adverse comments -

I was not trawling for adverse comments, just demonstrating that Shlaim's views are contested.

You should not read his book and imagine it is universally accepted as "a reliable history of events in Israel and surrounding areas during the past 70 years"

It is not.
You on the left kid yourselves that your extreme views are the only ones that matter. In the real world, very few people think like you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 May 18 - 08:54 AM

Good gracious. We now have the wrong kind of historian as well as the wrong kind of Jew. I suppose Natalie Portman must be the wrong kind of actress.

You have to hand it to these guys. If there was an Olympic even for verbal gymnastics they would win gold hands down.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 08:43 AM

"feign Jew cred"
Which sums up the whole sordid mess that is now Israel - anybody who hates the extremist regime that runs Israel is not fit to be a Jew - Israel Uber Alles - Fascism in the extreme
Neither you nor Keith has bothered to address the subject of the thread - that Israel has been shooting down unarmed demonstrators just as the South African Apartheid regime did at Sharpville
The sharpest critic of that atrocity is the former Ambassador to South Africa, just as the sharpest Critics of what has happened to Israel were former heads of its security forces
AS for Keith's attack on a book he obviously no intention of reading and is bending over backwards to dissuade others from doing so, I put up the names I did because Historians like Benny Morris are respected figures in the field of Israeli history - not friggin' unknown journalists
It seems "real historians" selling books in "real bookshops" have ridden off into the sunset
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 01 May 18 - 08:17 AM

Meh, another fringe, Israel hater writing revisionist history. The kind of fringe Jew embraced by Israel haters primarily because he is an Israel hating Jew extremist, as if he somehow represents the opinions of the majority. Just like Corbyn in his attempt to feign Jew cred attended Seder with a fringe anti-Israel group of extremists - likes attracting likes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 06:10 AM

For Christs sake read the book Keith rather than trawling around for adverse comments - or at least let us make up our own minds
Your last link was to a journalist
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 18 - 06:07 AM

You skipped over these two comments on the same Wiki page,

Howard Sachar sees Karsh as the "preeminent scholar-spokesman of the Revisionist (politically-rightist) Movement in Zionism."[19]

Author David Rodman opined, "Karsh stitches together a seemingly irrefutable case for the validity of the traditionalist narrative, possibly bringing to an end once and for all the New Historian phenomenon as a sustainable historiographical project."[20]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efraim_Karsh

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 18 - 05:40 AM

Isn't twaling around for the opinions of others that suit your own prejudices far easier than reading the book yourself

Something we can all do if we have the inclination
New Historians leader Benny Morris called Karsh's Fabricating Israeli History "a mélange of distortions, half-truths, and plain lies that vividly demonstrates his profound ignorance of both the source material... and the history of the Zionist-Arab conflict," titling his article "Undeserving of a Reply".[21] Morris adds that Karsh belabors minor points while ignoring the main pieces of evidence.[22]

Political scientist Ian Lustick commented that Karsh's writing in Fabricating Israeli History was malevolent, and his analysis erratic and sloppy.[23][24]

Yezid Sayigh, professor of Middle East studies, wrote that Karsh "is simply not what he makes himself out to be, a trained historian (nor political/social scientist)."[11] Karsh accused Sayigh of a "misleading misrepresentation of my scholarly background" and retorted that Sayigh's remarks were "not a scholarly debate on facts and theses but a character assassination couched in high pseudo-academic rhetoric".[
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 18 - 05:33 AM

NYT review,
" But just as early Israeli historians showed far too much tolerance for Zionist machinations, Shlaim is guilty of the inverse -- taking Nasser at his word and referring to 'Arab principle' without skepticism ('The Arab leaders refused to sign the agreement because, as a matter of principle, they were opposed to formal recognition of Israel')."
https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/99/11/14/reviews/991114.14bronjt.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 18 - 05:13 AM

-the book I mentioned is a reliable history of events in Israel and surrounding areas during the past 70 years

It is highly contentious and disputed by many other historians.
" Karsh criticised Shlaim in the Times Literary Supplement for ignoring Arab aggressive intent and accused him of leaving out the Arab-Palestinian side to the conflict. Shlaim does downplay Arab aggression as part of his overall argument,"

A lengthy review here,http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/153

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Gutcher
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:51 PM

Bobad---the book I mentioned is a reliable history of events in Israel and surrounding areas during the past 70 years and should be of immediate relevance to the current situation.

I shall look out for the book you mentioned

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:44 PM

"Jim - oops sorry.. "
Hapens to the best of us until you take the pledge
Beware his Black Holes - they leave a nasty taste in the mouth
The best way to decide whether to give these people the dignity of a reply is to count the number of times he has ignored your points - but you will need a calculator
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:39 PM

so now we've been talking all day about a fence within a border... make yer mind up...!!!???

Crikes... is this a foretaste of a dispute I'm likely to have with next door over their planned extension,
which seems to have gone a bit quiet since I submitted my objection to the council...!!!???

I'd better start stocking up with jets, tanks, and nukes... just in case...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 01:35 PM

The dispute is actually over the border fence.
That is Israel's border fence.
Israel built it and it is well inside Israel so anyone approaching it has already crossed illegally.

So that is Israel's border fence. Just theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 01:28 PM

don't be so silly - you know I was exceptionally clear...
otherwise why would i have made the point of taking you to task on it...
Remember, I am too sharp for you and your devious weasel mismangling trickery...


Jim - oops sorry..

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 01:04 PM

PFR, you were the only person unclear what border was being discussed.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:46 PM

imho the point of recommending books ought to be to open minds to new and different ideas and perspectives,
not to confirm and further entrench pre-existing bias and prejudice...


..but then, i'm one of those awkward free thinking objective fair minded humanists..
who am i to criticise old murderous eye for an eye fanatics and zealots...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:40 PM

Missed a bit
"Lololol...........they are in their homes. "
Lololo
One in three refugees world wide is Palestinian. There are about 6.5 million Palestinian refugees worldwide. More than 3.8 million Palestinian refugees and their descendents displaced in 1948 are registered for humanitarian assistance with the United Nations.
You will respond to none of this, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:37 PM

"Lyn Julius is the daughter of Iraqi-Jewish refugees. "
Lyn Julius is a right winger who accuses the left of claiming that the state of Israel has no right not exist - considering that the left was not only brought into being by Jewish refugees but is made up of a large number of activist Jews, her grap of both history and politics is, not to overstate, unreliable
Her target is not only non Jews, but she makes a point of Jewish critics of Israel in Britain
Those who try strenuously to separate antisemitism and anti-Zionism include the leaders of the British-Jewish community, who banned Israeli flags from a recent demonstration against antisemitism. According to Thomas, it is a distinction without a difference. Decades of media bias have wrought their distortions: Israel is guilty of all kinds of crimes, his peers believe – and Jews outside Israel are guilty sympathisers.
She is fighting for the same rights for Jewish exiles to return that she would deprive the Palestinians of doing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:18 PM

Gutcher, here's a book for you to read: Uprooted: How 3000 Years of Jewish Civilization in the Arab World Vanished Overnight by Lyn Julius.

Lyn Julius is the daughter of Iraqi-Jewish refugees.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:01 PM

The Palestinians are protesting in order to return to their homes

Lololol...........they are in their homes.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:01 PM

...oh.. so now it's "Gaza's Israel border"... well that's getting a bit more positive and inclusive...

That's what we need - open minds and scope for optimism progressing towards less confrontational co-existence...

carrots and sticks for both sides of the divide...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 11:45 AM

Don't get sucked into Keith's shit PFR
The Palestinians are protesting in order to return to their homes - not into another State
Another smokescreen
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 11:32 AM

PFR, the strife under discussion is happening at Gaza's Israel border, not its Egypt border which Egypt keeps permanently closed.

(It is enjoying a 3 day opening now, but only for medical patients, students and people with a permit to enter Egypt.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 11:08 AM

Thanks Gutcher
I saw the book in Dublin a few months ago and didn't buy it - I will next time we're there
I'd never heard of him before so I've just looked him up
An attack on him in a blog from the Jerusalem post headed
"Avi Shlaim’s Anti-Israel Slime "
quotes him as saying:
"Benjamin Netanyahu is “a bellicose, right-wing Israeli nationalist, a rejectionist… and a reactionary.” His government is “the most aggressively right-wing, diplomatically intransigent, and overtly racist government in Israel’s history.” It is a government of “militant nationalists.” It “is in danger of drifting towards fascism.” He is “a jimcrack politician.” He is “the war-monger in chief.”
In the Independent op-ed, he said “He (Netanyahu) is like a man who pretends to negotiate the division of a pizza while continuing to gobble it.”

and Ehud Barak, Israel’s defense minister, according to Shlaim,

“regards diplomacy as the extension of war by other means.” Moreover, he is a “bitkhonist, a security-ist who wants 100 percent security for Israel which means zero security for the Palestinians.”

He certainly has a way with words - something to look forward to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Gutcher
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 10:17 AM

For the period 1947--2006 Professor Avi Shlaims book "The Iron Wall"
should be read by all commenting on this thread.

Professor Shlaim is a Jew.

To be read in the extended 2nd edition.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 09:55 AM

bob - facetious games if you don't mind... I have loftier standards than mere 'silly'...

I'll leave silly to the other bloke...


""border" implicitly indicates two political or geographical areas."

yes.. as any sensible person should recognise...

But a sensible person can also see intended bias and loaded meaning behind calling it just 'Israel's Border'...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 09:40 AM

Punky, you are playing silly, little, semantic games as the word "border" implicitly indicates two political or geographical areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 09:13 AM

did i hear a little whisper the..."The one being discussed here is the Israel/Gaza border"

..what was that.. a little louder so we all can hear.."The one being discussed here is the Israel/Gaza border"...

yes that's right.."the Israel/Gaza border"..

So it's not just Israel's after all... it's shared with neighbours...

See the difference a little clarification makes...

Why, we might have thought a very biased chap only saw it as fortress Israel's heavily armed isolationist barricade...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:45 AM

"Makes one wonder whether those who profess to care about the "Palestinian" people are really only professing their hate toward Israel. "
Obviously you have not dipped into any of the Syria/Russia threads
Who on earth has ignored what Syria is doing to civilians - certainly no-one here?
Interesting that you should compare the two atrocities though - we are in agreement for once - one is as ba
d as the other (though Israel has been at it MUCH LONGER)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:40 AM

But as I'm English.. it's my border.. it's England's border
to keep the Welsh out...

It is the England/Wales border.
The one being discussed here is the Israel/Gaza border.
Both sides are entitled to restrict entry. If your new force takes responsibility for preventing unwelcome crossings, no more war.
Happy days.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:27 AM

Makes one wonder whether those who profess to care about the "Palestinian" people are really only professing their hate toward Israel.

Michael Freeman
@M_S_Freeman

After 7 days of aerial bombardment this is the situation in the Palestinian Yarmouk camp in Syria. Where are the @PSCupdates to protest, organize a rally or even make a statement? Nowhere. Because they have never cared about Palestinians just about hating Israel https://twitter.com/khaledabutoame

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:16 AM

Interesting that Mexican immigrants are now demonstrating at the US border for the right to be let in
Little doubt that our tam troll humanitarian will leap to the defence of the state when Trump's trrops start shooting them down (as he has defended every other act of mass murder)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:05 AM

World Police

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:59 AM

I'm going to have to ask my mrs about how effective she thinks the Welsh border is
in keeping the English invaders out of her homeland..
But as I'm English.. it's my border.. it's England's border
to keep the Welsh out...

Borders... bordering on insanity...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:58 AM

Just think of all the intractable wars of attrition that could be resolved by strategic implementation of ball pits and bouncy castles...

Yes, but if on Israel's border they would have to be enforced by your 'United World Police Peace Keeping Force' to stop them becoming a battlefield when Israel's enemies tried to storm through them or fire over them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:54 AM

Just think of all the intractable wars of attrition that could be resolved by strategic implementation of ball pits and bouncy castles...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:53 AM

So somehow Israel is a magic special land that can have complete ownership of a border and plonk it where ever it dictates.. eh...

Israel came into existence in 1948, within borders agreed by the UN.
Those are the borders PFR. The borders between Israel and Egypt, Gaza, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.
Like any country it is fully entitled to defend its borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:50 AM

Jim - I'm trying my best..
but sometimes it's a strain to resist taking the piss out of sheer wanton stupidity and prejudice...

I'd say at the moment I'm maintaining a balance of about 75% ignoring...
but could do better.....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:48 AM

No they'd rip it down and establish a neutral no man's land of fun fairs, petting zoos and bouncy castles...

That would work fine, as long as no-one was allowed to cross through it or fire over it.

Middle East finally sorted. Well done PFR.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:48 AM

So somehow Israel is a magic special land that can have complete ownership of a border and plonk it where ever it dictates

???????????????????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:23 AM

It's not about the border in any respect - it's about the right of people to be allowed to return home
The U.N.s duty is to see that human rights and international laws are adhered to - they have failed miserably as they did in Syria
Israel is riding roughshod over human rights, International laws and basic human decency - as do all terrorist states
Incidentally - If I cant feed the troll, nobody should - remember - "one day at a time"
Jim Carroll