BS: Israel's Sharpville

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 May 18 - 02:04 PM

Yes, there are people such as the IHRA who include anti-zionism in their definition of anti-semitism. Its a view, but its not everybody's view.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 01:24 PM

Eg
Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.,
JERUSALEM POST
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 01:18 PM

"seeking to destroy the only Jewish state is regarded as anti-Semitic."
So is blaming the Jews for the crimes of Israel
You people do nothing but - so does Israel
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 18 - 12:51 PM

Thanks Bobad.
David, seeking to destroy the only Jewish state is regarded as anti-Semitic.

You are not alone in not recognising anti-Semitism.
Steve, Jim and Dave have all denied clear examples of it, e.g. the mural, Naz Shah's comments, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 18 - 12:01 PM

Whoever is claiming that Iran is financing Hamas is talking out of their backside.

Hm..........who's talking out of their backside?

GAZA (Reuters) - Hamas and Iran have patched up relations, the Palestinian militant group’s new leader in Gaza said on Monday, and Tehran is again its biggest backer after years of tension over the civil war in Syria.

“Relations with Iran are excellent and Iran is the largest supporter of the Izz el-Deen al-Qassam Brigades with money and arms,” Yehya al-Sinwar, referring to Hamas’s armed wing, told reporters.

Reuters

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 May 18 - 11:36 AM

Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, and is financed from the Gulf States, notably Qatar. Whoever is claiming that Iran is financing Hamas is talking out of their backside.

Bobad, even if they were calling for that it still would not be anti-semitic. It wouldn't be right, but it would be aimed at Israel, not Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 11:07 AM

"They have killed many Jews"
SINCE 2005, 23 OUT OF EVERY 24 CONFLICT DEATHS HAVE BEEN PALESTINIAN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 18 - 11:01 AM

If they are calling for the replacement of Israel by a single secular state, or by two states divided according to the pre-1967 borders then it would not.

Which is, of course, not what they are calling for. What they are calling for is the destruction of Israel by armed jihad and for it to be replaced by an Islamic state.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 18 - 10:28 AM

David, Hamas is Sunni but is armed and financed by Shia Iran.
They do not want any Jews in Palestine and call for the killing of all Jews everywhere.
They have killed many Jews already in indiscriminate attacks on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 May 18 - 09:15 AM

Bobad,

You are conflating again.

If Hamas and Hezbollah were calling for the extermination of, or collective punishment for, Jews, then supporting them would be antisemitic.

If they are calling for the replacement of Israel by a single secular state, or by two states divided according to the pre-1967 borders then it would not.

And don't begin to conflate Hamas with Hezbollah, the former are Sunni, the latter Shia, and the Shia restrict the concept of Jihad to what they perceive as their local environs. Every major muslim terrorist organisation operating in the west is Sunni.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 04:34 AM

By the way Robo
If you are serious about discussing Stalin, the first thing to remember is that he was a despot who was not approved of by Western leaders as distinct from all those who were
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 18 - 04:07 AM

"Your parroting of the Soviet line"
If you rose your level of understanding above the "HORRIBLE HISTORIES" level you would be aware that that argument was not "the Soviet Line" - on the contrary...
I'm just about coming to the end of my fourth book specifically on Stalin, (one of the others was a four volume work on "The Great Terror" period of Soviet history
I don't support Stalin or his actions - I never have - but I do want to understand what went wrong with a dream to change the world and that brought massive changes for the better for those who attempted it - yet still failed and became corrupted repressive States
Describing Stalin as a "killer" is stupidly facile and pointless - it is political rhetoric from a period when the world was fighting for control over people's minds - the word you used "pathetic" sums up the level of your discussion so far perfectly
Whose line do you take on Stalin - Isaac Deucher's, Robert Conquest's, Simin Seabag Montifiori's, Leon Trotsky's, Stephen Kotkin's.... ?
All these have produced large, detailed studies of Stalin and that period of history - all are critics and/or outright opponents of his policies - all come up with differing conclusions - and you want to discuss him on the "murderer of his people" level?
Are you joking?
If you have any argument with my quote (one that roughly corresponds generally with the views of all the authors I mentioned) - why not come up with an analysis of your own
The slaughter of livestock and the destruction of crops by Kulaks in the middle of a famine is not "the Soviet line" - it is a fact of history - go read it up
Stalin's handling of the famine was appalling - his wife Nadia committed suicide because of the guilt she felt about it
Stalin didn't slaughter his people - he slaughtered the bureaucracy that opposed him - his people adored him because they had no idea what was going on
Rather than 'The Great Terror' being Bolshevik' or 'Communist' it was the opposite - it was a policy that removed (exile or execute) the Bolsheviks and replaced them with mindless yes-men
Despite all this, and despite the aftermath of a horrific World War over which of the European Royal families should own which bit of the world, a Civil War and another World War... what had been a backward and primitive Empire of uneducated and poverty-stricken serfs became a wealthy and powerful contender on the world stage in less that forty years
Stalin was a murderous despot - he did not represent Marxism, Bolshevism or Communism - he represented himself and he helped
kill off a dream of change and replacement with Western supported Putin, who, although regarded as "freeing Russia from the chains of communism" is now as bad as anything Stalinism ever turned up and 100% more dangerous a threat to the planet than the old Soviet Regime ever was - a true representative of what the modern world has now become.
You want to discuss Stalin - do so on this level and stop throwing outdated meaningless slogans at me
Why am I bothering discussing anything with somebody who hasn't the decency to condemn antisemitism when it come up and bites his arse, I ask myself?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: robomatic
Date: 06 May 18 - 09:10 PM

Oh, and 400

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: robomatic
Date: 06 May 18 - 09:09 PM

Jim, this is what you came up with just a month ago:

"but the Soviets re-wrote history in addition to creating conditions which starved millions of Ukrainians in the 30s."
The whole of that history has been re-written by both sides
The Ukrainian famine came about by Collectivisation, which was a bungled attempt to feed a starving Soviet Union
Stalin's ruthlessness was matched by that of the land-owning peasants (the Kulaks) who slaughtered their livestock and burned their crops rather than take pert in the scene (carefully missed out by many historians)
No side came out of this affair with anything to be proud of.

Your parroting of the Soviet line on that pathetic case of mass starvatioin beggars your current use of slanted links.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 18 - 07:22 PM

"Your challenging of another poster regarding a government picking on its own citizens is quite ludicrous"
I assume ou are talking about Keith?
If you're not, you've lost me
You seem to have a thing about ignoring what he actually said - isn't that quite ludicrous
Are you suggesting I faked his post - if not, please explain how it does not mean his recommending that it's ok to sell riot equipment to a mass murderer when he is in the process of mass murdering his people?
"compared to your championing of the Soviet system which systematically starved millions of Ukrainians. "
You have displayed a spectacular ignorance both of the Soviet Union and what my opinions are on it
Where have I ever Championed the murdering of the Ukrainian people?
I won't wait for an answer because I have come to realise you don't go in for that sort of thing, but rather, throw about accusations which you refuse to substantiate
Any nearer to understanding Keith's antisemitism yet or would you rather not answer on the grounds that you might incriminate yourself
Why do you people bother to contribute to these discussions if you are not prepared to debate them honestly?
You want to discuss he Soviet Union - fine the subject interests me, but please try to come up wit a little more than hastily scooped up Cold War propaganda - any moron can do that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: robomatic
Date: 06 May 18 - 05:55 PM

Jim:
Your challenging of another poster regarding a government picking on its own citizens is quite ludicrous compared to your championing of the Soviet system which systematically starved millions of Ukrainians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 18 - 05:11 PM

Arms sales to Israel from UK, including parts for sniper rifles.


http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/exclusive-uk-sells-more-500m-arms-israel-including-sniper-rifles-718473139

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 18 - 03:24 PM

Jim - I'm off downstairs for a lovely cooked by me bank holiday beef curry,
and 4 bottles of Rose [the wife's favourite - 1 for her, 3 for me..]

I will try my best to stay off the internet tonight,
and even go to the extent of barricading my computer room door.
in case god or the devil tell me to do it...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 18 - 02:55 PM

I think this pie is done PFK
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 18 - 02:45 PM

"I will not rise to it."

luckily then, we are discussing 'omnipotence' in the other thread about threads about you...

crikey you're popular...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 18 - 02:29 PM

you 2 joined at the hip, or communicating by telepathy...!!!???

popping up together like whack-a-mole...


None of us want this thread closed...????

Plenty of constructive mileage left in it..

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 18 - 02:16 PM

You are trolling this discussion.

Yep, they'll get it closed and blame it on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 18 - 02:07 PM

Just more lying personal attacks on me then.
I will not rise to it.

You are trolling this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 18 - 02:00 PM

"Still nothing to say on the Israel/Gaza situation then."

yeah... it's up shit creek...!!!

Evil zealots on both sides wanting to keep the fight going on forever
while 'you' sit at home lapping it all up...

Muslims and Jews killing each other - extreme fundie xstians cheering them on and relishing it...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 18 - 01:54 PM

"Both of you trying to make this about me again with your disgusting insinuations."
Keith
Your defence of Britain selling riot control equipment to Assad after you had been told of his mass murdering and torturing of his victims and at the time he was rounding up Arab Spring protesters, using British equipmnt prior to the Civil War
You need to think through your attitude to humanity if you don't want these things to come back and bite your bum
I really don't want to humiliate you but your obsessive behaviour makes it virtually impossible not to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:15 PM
Even liberal democracies have to deal with riots.
Non-lethal crowd control techniques are preferrable to live rounds.
If only Syria would restrict its security forces to using tear gas and water.
It would not be such a crime to supply such things, compared to what Russia and China supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 18 - 01:45 PM

Still nothing to say on the Israel/Gaza situation then.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 18 - 01:43 PM

we shall mock on the beaches, we shall mock on the landing grounds,
we shall mock in the fields and in the streets, we shall mock in the hills;
we shall never surrender to sly divisive hypocrites....


For we are a resilient bunch of mockers....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 18 - 01:10 PM

Both of you trying to make this about me again with your disgusting insinuations.
I will not rise to it.

PFR, are you afraid to put my whole name in case I appear behind you?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 18 - 11:20 AM

"where would he have positioned himself on the issue of Jews in Germany,"
Anything the state says is ok, is ok by Keith
After all - it is the law
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 18 - 11:01 AM

I don't know how old K*** is..

But what side was he on in the 2nd world war...???


Ok.. here's a minor entertainment for a bank holiday...
Let's pretend for sake of hypothetical debate we are in early 1940s Germany....
If I'd been a young German of military conscription age,
or the age I am now,
how problematic for me would my merely quarter Jewish ancestry have been...???

If K*** had just been himself at whatever age he is,
where would he have positioned himself on the issue of Jews in Germany,
and all over the rest of Europe...???

no harm in asking.....

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 18 - 10:44 AM

“incendiary kites”
The towel-head bastards – who the hell do they think they are resisting Israeli slaughter with drones – they’ll be using peashooters next !!!
These demonstrators must go down in history among the bravest people in history, going against a nuclear facilitated power that has shown itself more than capable of slaughtering civilians and poorly armed resistors by the thousand – armed with little more than catapults up to now – forty Palestinians killed and 5,511 wounded without a single report of an Israeli being scratched, talk about David and Goliath!
They have my admiration forever – mor power to their elbow.
Surely it’s time for the West (“Keith’s decent democratic countries and all”) to stand up and call a halt to this butchery?
All this certainly puts into perspective “the destruction of the State of Israel” if those threatening to do so can’t even get kites and drones in the air
A reminder of the Israeli use of DRONES
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 18 - 10:08 AM

"PFR,
So still nothing to say on the Israel/Gaza situation.
Just more personal stuff."

Stop being such a complete Israel, you effin silly irritating Gaza...!!!!

there you go.. I mentioned Israel and Gaza for you again...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 18 - 09:31 AM

"And all of this is a distraction from the more serious issue in the middle east, which is the Sunni-Shia conflict, where the west has for some reason (maybe an oil-based reason) decided to side with the Sunni and, Israel has followed suit."

In reality it is Iran that is the that is the reason for Israel to "cosy up" to Saudi. Iran is 95% Shia. It is not simply religion but the political affiliations that have resulted from the Shia/Shiite split.
Israel has nuclear weapons and are terrified at the thought that another regional power may have had them. Until Israel learns that diplomacy is not at the end of a gun barrel then stability in the Middle East is non achievable. Every major power has had to negotiate with "terrorists", what makes the regional bully on the block so different?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 18 - 08:58 AM

Israeli military aircraft struck a Hamas site in the northern Gaza Strip used as a launching pad for incendiary kites Saturday night, the military said Sunday.

The army specifically noted Sunday that there was “no connection whatsoever” between the strike and a large blast rocked the central Gaza Strip on Saturday, killing at least six members of Hamas’s military wing, according to the terror group.

The group (Islamic Jihad) said in a statement that the four died during “preparations,” without giving further details. Army Radio reported that the terrorists were killed while carrying explosives in an all-terrain vehicle, suggesting the blast may have been a “work accident.” AFP said they were riding a tuk tuk vehicle, or auto-rickshaw, which exploded a few hundred meters from the border with Israel.

ToI

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 18 - 08:12 AM

Jim,
I do not believe Israel to be guilty of "state terrorism."
That is an extreme view, so extreme it is not held by any liberal government or any UK political party.

You demand to be allowed to post such extreme views but disallow more moderate views.

If only one side is put it is not a discussion.
You are being unreasonable and irrational Jim, so no change there.

Israel has admitted hitting a Hamas position near the fence but denies causing the explosion in central Gaza that killed 6 fighters. Local people said it had been an accident.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 18 - 07:58 AM

Nor is it anti-semitic to hold dialogue with Hamas, or Hezbollah, or to support some of their aims, if not their methods.

Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist groups whose aim is the elimination of Israel as the national home of the Jewish people. To support them and their aim is anti-Semitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 18 - 05:02 AM

"Why do you object to anyone putting Israel's case?"
Israel has the most powerful propaganda machine on the planet - so powerful that it is able to infiltrate the Labour party and get "Labour Friends of Israel" to launch a campaign to accuse labour of being an antisemitic party   
Your supporting Israel is no different than those who took up the Nazi cause during the war (the ones you defended for writing antisemitic poetry)
That is not support; that's defending State terrorism
The Palestinians have no such support apart from those organizing BDS - that is why I am happy to support it, just as I supported the Anti-Apartheid Movement
There - that-s my ration of communication with you today used up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 18 - 04:25 AM

PFR,
So still nothing to say on the Israel/Gaza situation.
Just more personal stuff.

Jim,
No-one objects to you putting the Palestinian case.
Why do you object to anyone putting Israel's case?

In Gaza, far from the border, six Hamas fighters died in an explosion.
Israel has denied involvement, but Hamas blames them.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-israeli-palestinians/gaza-blast-kills-five-palestinians-cause-unclear-health-officials-idUKKBN1I60PF

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 18 - 04:18 AM

"Nor is it anti-semitic to hold dialogue with Hamas, or Hezbollah, or to support some of their aims, if not their methods."
I quite agree David - "terrorism" is a common feature of all wars, especially those that involve small nations fighting powerful forces
The Imperial system was finally brought to its knees by acts of "terror" which later became nationally celebrated
#ISRAEL CELEBRATES ACT of TERROR
This particular "act of terror" was celebrated again in 2016.
One man's "terrorist is another man's national hero (and quite often becomes a national leader in the newly liberated state.
"I had not realised that Israel supported any Arab faction"
AN EXAMPLE of Israel using a Muslim group to facilitate the butchery of up to 3,500 unarmed refugees - the largest single massacre of unarmed non combatants since the Holocaust
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 18 - 03:52 AM

This is what I find so good about the Mudcat. I had not realised that Israel supported any Arab faction so I looked it up and learned something new :-) Thanks, David Carter.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 06 May 18 - 03:39 AM

You have to clearly decouple criticism of Israel from anti-semitism. And it seems that there are people on both sides who do not wish to do that.

It is not anti-semitic to criticise Israel for its actions, or to propose a better solution to the political situation in the middle-east, whether it be a two state solution based upon the pre-1967 borders, or a single secular state.

Nor is it anti-semitic to hold dialogue with Hamas, or Hezbollah, or to support some of their aims, if not their methods.

It is anti-semitic to use the actions of Israel and an excuse to criticise Jews who may have nothing to do with that, or Jews as a bloc when some of them themselves are proposing different behaviour and solutions in the middle east.

And all of this is a distraction from the more serious issue in the middle east, which is the Sunni-Shia conflict, where the west has for some reason (maybe an oil-based reason) decided to side with the Sunni and, Israel has followed suit.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 18 - 02:48 AM

No comment on Keith's antisemitism Bruce ?
No case
Bobad
No case
I think that fully establishes who the antisenites here - don't you?
I won't mention the "no apology" or no withdrawal" bit - that's just evidence of no self respect from people who are prepared to behave as you do on a public forum
Never ever accuse me, or anybody of lying again after this - or of being an antisemite
The rest of your posting is a blustering exercise at face-saving - blatant inventions and distortions of what I believe and what I have said - you wil produce proof of none of it if I ask, so I won't bother
Is there any chance that you might know somebody who can make a half- decent case on behalf of Israel - you certainly can't ?
"You may not like my reply"
On the contrary - I loved every word of it - it confirmed everything I believe - about you and about Israel
Please keep it coming
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 18 - 11:05 PM

"You have accused me again and now you have the evidence that I have not lied in front of you"

No evidence that I see of what you claim. Just an arguement that YOU have not won, just made claims about. According to YOUR logic, the statements by the Palestinian leadership of of no value in determining what THEY believe- so how can songs by Facists possibly show what Keith or others here believe?

"You have accused me of lying several times yet have yet to come up with a single example "

I have, repeatedly- and am waiting on that donation. YOU may not have agreed- but then, YOU make statements all the time about what others believe and say that are YOUR opinion, and expect us to treat it as fact- So you may do the same for me, and consider it proven, if that will make you happy. Otherwise, admit you have been wrong in many of tyour statements of opinion, or at least provide some discussion beyond your declaration that it is factual.



"So you accuse half the population of demanding a crime against humanity and the Israeli Government of responding to that demand"

NO- I accuse 83% of the Palestinians of demanding a crime against humanity, and YOU supporting them in that crime.



"I have never at any time supported any call for ethnic cleansing (show where I have)"

OH?? When you call for the West Bank to be given to the Palestinians as a state ( and you have called for more than that!) when the vast majority ( posted in other threads- 83% of the Palestinians?) do NOT permit Jews to be allowed to settle in the Palestinian State ( as the were/are NOT allowed to settle in the 77% of Mandate Palestine that formed the ARAB PALESTINAN state of TransJordan in 1923).



"Israel is blaming the Jews for what they are doing and many are taking their word for it."

No.IMO, from your posts, YOU are the one blaming Israel, and not the specific individuals YOU claim are doing these things.

"- what I have said is that the Israeli regime's Implicating the Jewish People in their crimes by hiding behind the accusation of "antisemitism" to excuse them is the cause of the sharp rise in antisemitism in the world today - Israel is blaming the Jews for what they are doing and many are taking their word for it."

YES- YOU have said this. IMO, it is unsupported by the facts. YOU are lying or stating your opinion- which UNPROVEN is enough to label YOU as Anti-semitic.


"I expect a reply to this one"

You have a reply- but I doubt if you will agree to anything. You never do, unless you have twisted it to where no-one would recognize it compared to the original post.


You may not like my reply- but it is one- and MY opinion is as valid ( and more so, when the facts I have previously posted are recalled) as yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 18 - 09:03 PM

I expect a reply to this one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 18 - 09:01 PM

"No, JC. You are wrong. You make accusations based only on your own lies about others."
The relevant postings have been put up several times - dated and in full over the last few weeks - you contributed to that thread
Robomatic said he didn't understand it so I put it up again
These are the postings again

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?

Keith was denying a family story I once heard of British MPs describing the news leaking from Germany of the exterminations as “Lies of whingeing Yids” - Keith denied the story as "illogical" - which was bad enough
I went on to describe the fascist group formed by MPs, members of the House of Lords and British businessmen led by Archibald Maule Ramsey

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 11:22 AM
I wrote
“Try this for size
http://www.rense.com/ufo6/nazisym.htm
Quote from article about British wartime fascism
“..... The Red Book is the membership list of the Right Club, a secret organisation founded in May 1939 by Captain Archibald Ramsay MP. Unlike the populist British Union of Fascists lead by the charismatic Sir Oswald Mosley, the Right Club was exclusive.
Its members were aristocrats and Members of Parliament, academics, civil servants, clerics and rich dilettantes. Some of the men had distinguished themselves in the 1914-18 war and saw themselves as patriots. But they were also virulent racists who supported Hitler's treatment of Germany's Jewish population. Many were Nazi sympathisers. From King Edward VIII downwards, there was a widespread view that only a powerful Germany could hold back the threat of Bolshevism, and that Britain should be supporting Hitler, not preparing to attack him.
......But if the badge seems mildly comic now, the vehemence with which these establishment figures hated Jews was chilling. A "hymn" to the tune of "Land of Hope and Glory", entered in the book in Ramsay's handwriting and in a printed version for public distribution, reads: “

Hymn 1939
Land of dope and Jewry,
Land that once was free,
All the Jew boys praise thee
While they plunder thee.

Poorer still and poorer
Grow the trueborn sons,
Faster still and faster
They're sent to feed the guns.

Land of Jewish finance,
Fooled by Jewish lies,
In press and books and movies
While our birthright dies.

Longer still and longer
Is the rope they get
But, by the God of battles
T'will serve to hang them yet.


Keith responded
Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:57 PM
Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary!

Keith later confirmed his opinion that the poem was an "unimportant silly song"
Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:16 PM
More dishonesty.
I did not mention "Dad's Army" at all!!
I merely offered an anti Fascist song to match your fascist one, making the point that finding a song is not evidence.

I asked you, Robomatic and Bobad to acknowledge it - you and Bobad ignored my request - Robo claimed not to understand it.

You have accused me of lying several times yet have yet to come up with a single example
You have accused me again and now you have the evidence that I have not lied in front of you
I don't expect either an apology nor a withdrawal of your accusation - you don't seem to go in for that sort of thing
I await with some interest your reaction to Keith's antisemitism with some interest
"Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity -"
So you accuse half the population of demanding a crime against humanity and the Israeli Government of responding to that demand
I have never at any time supported any call for ethnic cleansing (show where I have) - what I have said is that the Israeli regime's Implicating the Jewish People in their crimes by hiding behind the accusation of "antisemitism" to excuse them is the cause of the sharp rise in antisemitism in the world today - Israel is blaming the Jews for what they are doing and many are taking their word for it.
Pease stop making things up - you really are not very good at it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 18 - 08:07 PM

No, JC. You are wrong. You make accusations based only on your own lies about others.

Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity - that is what a significant number of the Palestinian People are openly calling for, and implemented when they had the West Bank- yet you have approved of that by your silence. ( using your logic on you- Only fair)

YOU have supported genocide and ethnic cleansing

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 18 - 07:34 PM

"Many in my family suffered tremendously at the hands of the Nazis, "
I knew many holocaust survivors in my twenties (around fifteen years after their ordeal) - I nearly married into a family of holocaust survivors once until I fell out with one of them because she described the Israeli government as "a bunch of fascists" - I did not know as much about Israel then as I do now
I can claim no family members as such (I'm happy to be able to say)
If you consider antisemitism so important why are you not prepared to condemn someone who describes wartime poems demanding the extermination of Jews as unimportant and "silly" and compares them to the theme tune of a sit-com, "Dad's Army"?
If Corbyn had done this you would be doing a victory dance - if I had done it, you would have claimed your donation to charity - you would be fully entitled to do so
You can't divide antisemitism into that uttered by friends and that from your political opponents, as you appear to do
The same goes for Bearded Bruce and Robomatic - you all know what Keith said - none of you will utter a word of criticism
I have to say I'm not surprised - it confirms that none of this has anything to do with defending the Jewish People - it is a defence of extremist right wing politics of the type that sent six million Jews to their deaths (alongside the "lefties" you despise).
Far from defending the Jewish People you are defending the politics that sent six million of them to their deaths - cultural hatred extreme racism
Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity - that is what a significant number the Israeli People are openly calling for, that is the policy that the Israeli regime is obliging them with
If that's what you want, have the honesty to say so - you have lost your claim to be a defender of the Jewish People
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: bobad
Date: 05 May 18 - 04:29 PM

"You mean like you and Bobad were when when he trivailised the situation if the six-million Jews about to go to their deaths in the Nazi extermination camps"

Don't be a complete ass. Many in my family suffered tremendously at the hands of the Nazis, my own father was incarcerated in a concentration camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 18 - 04:05 PM

"name your charity and I will repeat my offer of a generous donation"

I did and you failed to even discuss the point I had brought up. It seems that YOU get to make the definitions, and they shift with each iteration.


As for

"You mean like you and Bobad were when when he trivailised the situation if the six-million Jews about to go to their deaths in the Nazi extermination camps"

Never have trivialized that- Some realatives of mine were certainly in those camps- the entire Polish/Latvian/Russian sides of the family that had not left by 1927.




"Bobad holds the record for longest postings by far with his six-pages worth of Islamophobic filth claiming Muslims have been musderous cultural degenerate since Roman times - all gleaned from extremist racist sites such as 'Muslim-Watch' and 'White Supremacist'
If you would like me to link you to it, I'm think I can oblige - I'm sure you don't"

Than you are wrong, as you seem to usually be when you decide what others are thinking.






"The rest of your postings, especially the claim that nuclear facilitated Israel is fighting for its existence from attacks by poorly armed, poorly trained Third-World Arabs - has been dealt with ad-nausem"

So NOW you claim that Israel would use nuclear weapons against poorly armed, poorly trained Third-World Arabs?

RThey are fighting against a non-sysmetric threat to their civilian population. I think you would say that the Palestinians are as well, but would not want to tell YOU how to think.

"Technological superiority usually is cancelled by more vulnerable infrastructure which can be targeted with devastating results. Destruction of multiple electric lines, roads or water supply systems in highly populated areas could have devastating effects on economy and morale, while the weaker side may not have these structures at all.

f the inferior power is in an aggressive position, however, and/or turns to tactics prohibited by the laws of war (jus in bello), its success depends on the superior power's refraining from like tactics. For example, the law of land warfare prohibits the use of a flag of truce or clearly marked medical vehicles as cover for an attack or ambush, but an asymmetric combatant using this prohibited tactic to its advantage depends on the superior power's obedience to the corresponding law. Similarly, laws of warfare prohibit combatants from using civilian settlements, populations or facilities as military bases, but when an inferior power uses this tactic, it depends on the premise that the superior power will respect the law that the other is violating, and will not attack that civilian target, or if they do the propaganda advantage will outweigh the material loss"


NOTE"the law of land warfare prohibits the use of a flag of truce or clearly marked medical vehicles as cover for an attack or ambush, Similarly, laws of warfare prohibit combatants from using civilian settlements, populations or facilities as military bases, "

All done- documented in many past posts - by the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel's Sharpville
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 May 18 - 03:35 PM

bob - I won't argue with that..
respect from an agnostic merely a few percent away from full blown atheism...